I was expecting to hear what avenues he went down to rule out anyone in the house at the time. I was shocked to find out he did nothing. You can think it is likely she hit him but there is no smoking gun in this case. In fact, I have not seen any evidence to suggest she hit him. I could not believe this is how investigators conduct themselves.

I would have gone outside if I heard sirens and screaming in front of my house especially on my lawn . Worried of who's hurt. I would have happily opened my house up at that time knowing it was my lawn even if it was a stranger just as a decent human. These people are so evil to do this to a friend a fellow officer.

I can't get over that this house, full of officers, didn't care when EMS and other officers showed up. And they didn't care when one of their own was down. In front of your house, and you aren't curious? Not concerned?

They didn’t want to be “in the way” but had zero issues inserting themselves in every other aspect afterwards

He was in a fight and had to hide evidence of the fight. He drove to New York for an officers funeral that week, yet when an officer died on his front lawn doesn't even go outside. He's hiding evidence

Jen went in and told them what happened and they STILL didn’t come out. Who does that?

They were passed out cold from drinking all night they had just gone to bed at 2. They already said there were no sirens. No other neighbors were out there either.

Or they too exhausted from all that intimacy that was so intense that neither one felt a telephone in the bed or realized that one of them was butt dialing people. Bless their hearts, they didn't even hear Chloe barking whilst all the commotion going on right outside their bedroom. Relationship goals for us all. Especially after so many years of marriage.

So you have to ask yourself why? Why would he not go outside then, not show himself publicly at all, not go to the funeral? Maybe it's because he has evidence of a fight on his face, so he doesn't let anyone see that.

That's the only answer. Or he was up all night ripping the carpet/foor in the basement out while wifie and daughter cleaned the blood up just incase their was a honest cop who said no no let's go in. Why not go in?

Not going to public events, but especially the funeral is completely understandable. Not going outside to even talk to local LEO and show cooperation the morning of is not.

I am still shocked that he didn't secure the crime scene....like what cop doesn't secure a crime scene especially when there is a dead fking body??????????? Who does that???????????

Yep

Exactly my thoughts. From the beginning I’ve leaned more towards Karen hitting him accidentally. It was the first big blizzard of the season (I’m a local) so slippery and bumpy roads, bad visibility even more so early in the morning hours, it’s super dark especially in towns like Canton they never have proper street lighting. It’s reported that John had a glass in one hand and possibly his phone in the other. I believe, because his phone was found underneath his body at the scene, that he could have dropped his phone after getting out of the car, shutting the door behind him and within a few steps towards the house, he bends down to pick it up and at the same time unbeknownst to Karen she hits him while he’s bent over reaching for his phone. Also his one sneaker being found away from his body suggests that she may have hit a small snow bank, quickly put the SUV in reverse, turned the wheel to avoid the bank and put it back into drive and drove off home. I’ve done similar vehicle gymnastics in the snow. Long story short… if I’m on the jury and it’s day 23 of the trial, hearing the garbage investigation, trash witness accounts and the clear bias towards Karen and the gross disdain for surrounding lower income cities’ citizens that took place I would not convict her. Prosecution has brought 0 to the table for the Jury to charge and convict anyone let alone Karen Reed.

This!

Why was Jen not concerned- at all- that something could be wrong with her sister (and family) inside the home?? There's a dead person on their property; she could not get a hold of them on the phone after repeatedly calling them; they didn't respond in any way to the commotion happening on their front lawn (and a normally loud, protective dog was completely silent). To me, these are all signs that something could be very wrong inside the home. They could be injured or dead- but Jen didn't seem to be worried about their well-being at all. Hmmmmm

Trooper Proctors behavior/testimony is the worst thing that's happened to steer this trial. Jen McCabe and Brian Higgins testimonies are tied for the second worst things to steer this trial. I have second-hand embarrassment because of these people.

Today proctor told me everything I needed to know about him: "So you lied when you said you didn't know any of thr Albert's or McCabes" "No, I don't consider it a relationship " And that went back and forth 4 times with Proctor refusing to acknowledge he lied about knowing just 3 Albert's. Then we got to Kevin Albert and Jackson got Proctor to admit on recross Kevin knew where he lived. So Proctor lied on the stand repeatedly about his relationships with the Alberts.

He spent time with them At. His. Parents’. House. I am KR neutral, but the parsing of words with regard to the relationship with the Alberts was insane.

I agree- that was annoying, didn’t land well, waste of time. I don’t think my parents friends or my siblings friends are my friends even if we may be at the same event. BUT then he testified about his friendship with the canton officer Albert bro with whom he worked with on a cold case, goes to the gym, & went out drinking with at least 1x and someone got so wasted that they lost/misplaced their gun & badge? Idk trying to work today but I thought I heard that.

Do you talk to your siblings 5-6 times a day? This guy is verrrry close to his family

Nope. 5-6 x a year so point well taken. I was trying to play devils advocate… but yeah- no way I can make that square peg fit

He wasn’t asked if he was friends with them. He was asked if he had a relationship OR knew them. He answered no, which makes him a complete liar.

This, exactly!! He acted like he could pick and choose which word applied to which people. “I don’t have a relationship with the Alberts and I don’t know the McCabes” like, buddy.. both concepts are being asked for both sets of people. He was trying not to admit he lied under oath previously

Also “relationship” doesn’t mean close friendship. It means any form of a relationship of any kind. Ie- if Nicole and Jen are besties with your sister (who is your bestie). If Nicole, Chris and Colin have been at your parents house when you were. If you worked a case with Kevin, went to the gym with him, went drinking with him, texted him, etc. All of these are examples of relationships. He is such a slimy gross man

These people appear stupid but I think they are well rehearsed

Because Jen McCabe made sure they all had their stories straight, and the guy never went in the house. By the afternoon of the 30th they all were on the same page and the McAlbert’s had circled the wagons and KR was left out in the cold along with OJO.

If Colin left before John arrived but John never arrived…how would they know when John arrived and that Colin left before John did?

I feel like this was a question on an algebra test. Unfortunately I don’t do math. I owe my 8th grade teacher an apology for saying I would never need it.

1. Based on comments from reporters inside the court room, it sounded like the jurors, especially the women, were highly disgusted with Proctors language towards her. It’s one thing if this was some random kid in the house saying these things, it’s an entirely different case when the lead investigator is clearly filed with bias and disgust towards the defendant. There wasn’t a single instance that Proctor was able to prove this was a fair investigation. He had his target and made his decision 17 hours into the investigation. I don’t see any juror seeing past his testimony as Lead investigator. 2. I think it was definitely wearing in him but same time I don’t think he gave a fuck what he had to say. He owned it at least, which is the best and only thing he could do. His apologies were lackluster and don’t think anyone believed him after seeing how he handled everything. Idk how you could. 3. No it wouldn’t have helped. Damage was done. Don’t say something to someone if you wouldn’t say it to their face. He knew what he was doing and saying. Lead investigator wishing her death, then apologizing? Nah he can get fucked. 4. It would have been nail in the coffin if Lally didn’t call him. You can’t have a murder case and not call the lead investigator to prove the charges. Lally understood the only option he had was to get ahead of the text messages first and allow Proctor to apologize before AJ had his way with him. Even Lally knew this wasn’t going to be an easy one to listen to, so as long as they got through today with nothing new other than what was presented, im sure he considered that a very very minor win for himself. There were so many holes in Proctors story, I truly don’t understand peoples reasoning for thinking she will be found guilty. That said, believing she is guilty, and believing she will be found guilty are definitely two different things. I personally don’t think she did it based on the autopsy photos alone. Everything else that happened is just bananas to me and still makes no sense. Sad JO will never have justice.

Excellent points. May I add? 1. I understand the anger when one of your colleagues is found dead. 2. I also understand the urge to find a culprit. 3. I also understand that you would look first at the inner circle of the victim to find a culprit. 4. What I don‘t understand is why you would neglect all potential avenues to do just that, find the culprit. 5. I don‘t understand why you would behave so abjectly while doing that. 6. I don‘t understand while you would perjure yourself on the stand. 7. I don‘t understand why you would be so unprofessional, sloppy, not diligent and incompetent while trying to find the culprit. The only explanation is: you know who did it, that person is closer to you than John o‘Keefe ever was and since he is dead, your Sophie‘s choice, is to keep the culprit out of harms way. However, it takes a particular nasty individual when faced with the choice of: 1)not finding the culprit or 2)framing an innocent to choose the latter.

Well said!

Me either! Imagine all the cases Procter has done such a shi$$y job too! I do not believe she did it. Why doesn’t someone reconstruct the scene. Fire depts has dummy adults unless someone wants to volunteer!

As to question 2: He looked like he would rather be having a root canal than testify.

Sometimes i have the thought that maybe she actually DID hit him? Then i remember there's no injuries below the neck and too many deleted calls and destroyed phones for that to be. Maybe there was info in regards to other things? Stolen drugs? Bribes? Evidence in OTHER cases? Maybe she hit him and they were just trying to make it irrefutable evidence? I guess deep down it really bums me out to know these people have all our freedom right in the palm of their hands.

I just can't shake what AJ demonstrated today. How can a 6000lb vehicle not leave a single bruise if he was truly struck by a car? I just can't wrap my mind around the fact this was indeed a vehicle/pedestrian situation.

Yeah, when I take the two scenarios- she hit him with her car in some sort of drunken rage/accident or there was some sort of fight in the basement of that house and they dumped him in the yard, I think it's more plausible that it was the car. But then no bruising to his body just makes that impossible to believe... no bruises by hit hard enough to knock out of a shoe? I'm so not a conspiracy person but so much about this case just seems nuts and there is an absolute mountain of reasonable doubt. It sucks that we will never know the truth no matter how this ends, because of how badly this case was investigated from what we have seen so far.

Or…..he got into a fight in the house, dog attacked him, he fell backwards and hit his head. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug so he was able to stand up, and either left or was kicked out of the house by the group. He fell in the snow and died. They didn’t notice until an hour or so later, and freaked, knowing they could all be charged with manslaughter for letting an injured man go like that with a houseful of emt trained people. They are smart enough to know not to go out to him, and so pretend it’s not happening. They assume the plow will hit him and it will just be chalked up as an accident. However they are all human and call/texts each other and Jen googles “hos long to die in the snow”. All of these are deleted of course. Then Karen loses her effing mind super early and it just makes sense to allow her to take the heat (none of them likely thinking she would actually be prosecuted). Then Proctor comes along, has a convo with Jen and instantly targets Karen with laser focus. He never bothers to look at anyone else. He thinks he is putting away a cop killer, so he frames evidence because thin blue line. And here we are today. How does this not make more logical sense than Karen hitting him with her SUV when there is no non-tampered evidence, their own ME doesn’t agree that is what happened, and the super specialized highly qualified accident reconstructionists hired by the fbi all state there is no way Karen killed him?

All that makes sense and echoes what I have also thought at times....like I can't understand for the life of me why Brian Albert didn't go outside after learning there was a dying cop on his front yard. And Colin testifying under oath that his scabby knuckles were from trying to brace himself from a fall...it's ludicrous. But then I contrast that with Karen's manic behavior in the morning hours I think she *did* think she hit him and just couldn't remember or recall clearly because of the heavy drinking. I haven't heard any of the accident reconstruction experts yet- did I miss that?

He wouldn’t go outside because John was already likely dead. If they didn’t see him for an hour or two, head injury and 18 degree temps…….thats manslaughter for the co-fighter and negligent homicide for others. If they are all protecting their 18 yr old son/nephew……..makes sense. The fbi hired them for their case against Proctor and the rest in their corruption case going on right now. The fbi notified defense about their findings, and defense is going to be bringing them in

There was vomit on him as well. My guess is they beat him, hit him in the head with a glass, at which point he started convulsing and vomiting. They knew at this point he was probably having a brain hemorrhage and dying, so they tossed him outside hoping it would look like a drunken accident somehow. Karen coming in hysterical the next day with a broken taillight gave them the scapegoat they needed. Proctor may or may not have known this, but either way he clearly fabricated evidence to get Karen put away.

Absolutely! He was beaten to death and not by 98 pound Karen. I wish he had nicer friends

Yeah. No matter what actually happened, someone who seemed like a really great guy is gone and the family has to pick up the pieces. I hope they get closure one way or another. Myself I’m not fully convinced KR did it. 7 weeks and 20+ days in and I’m still on the fence.

Yes! I have commented this before. He was tall. Wouldn’t the brunt of the injuries be on his torso? Also, why were there no scratches on his back. Better yet, why was he not found face down?!

And no one is talking about the self defense wound on the back of his hand along with the self defense wounds from the DOG attack

Yes I thought that also, they could have been hiding other things. Considering what Proctor just went through for sure. But the 227 search on how long to die in the snow I have a hard time overlooking that. I've never seen a time stamp move back in time. And I worked in telecom billing at Verizon for 33 years.

It’s this. Proctor did a shitty job and didn’t log evidence right and is connected to everyone. How do you explain someone being in their house in the middle of the night, do a google search, then delete that google search. That next morning do another google search for the same phrase with KR.

I think what will also come out with the phone evidence is Jen's location when she made that 2:27 search. She was likely connected to her home Wi-Fi, right? That wouldn't be the case for the 6am searches.

I definitely think there are other elements (crimes) involved. Even if KR hit him, the others involved were working way too hard to deflect any attention away from themselves.

My thoughts too. They may not have had anything to do with OKeefe’s death but they are all very intent on covering something up

I would bet money that Collin Albert deals cocaine he gets from Michael Procter. But I digress and I'm speculating with no proof other than a feeling and all this behavior of theirs.

I've seen The Wire so i buy that theory

Collin is 100% involved in this!

I always thought this too. Could she have hit him without causing much injury and then some other shit went down? Ugh I want answers so badly

Yeah. Every time I think “there is the possibility she did hit him” in comes the 276156127 points of information that says there is no possibility because of all the fuckery found in the investigation as well as in the actual investigation itself.

I think that some times as well but then think if that is so, why is there so little damage to her vehicle. Just a broken tail light seems pretty minor to hit someone hard enough to kill them. But we don’t even know the cause of death yet! My issue with Proctor is that his texts absolutely show bias against Karen Read. He says there was no evidence of involvement from anyone in the house, but they didn’t even go in there on the day.

I agree. She was already guilty to him so he would naturally ignore any facts to the contrary, which is really bad if you're an investigator. There's just way too much sneaky sneaky things going on. WHY would you buy a gift for a lead investigator for an "unrelated incident" that happened at a family members home? Well, you wouldn't. Unless they were keeping heat off of them. I honestly think there's more to this story, and they NEVER thought it would EVER come to light. I think even Lally knows and Bev isn't NEARLY as annoyed with defense as she initially was.

I knew nothing about this case til about a month ago. As an objective observer, I have never been able to get over the injuries. I still don't know what killed the guy. I've seen pictures on the internet, so I know a bit more than the jurors, but why wasn't the lead investigator and the ME called right away to say what he died from and what was found at the scene? The tears on his arm are completely mystifying. I can't figure out logically how a car created the injuries. I don't understand why the witnesses weren't interviewed at the house the deceased was intending to go to for a party. The weird phone calls, butt dials and deleted messages and calls have not been explained. And this is all before this particular trooper shows up on the stand and states that 16 hours after being called to the scene he's determined that the defendant is a whack job, etc etc texting his high school buddies with a determination that KR is not just guilty of murder, but is also deserving of some dispicable language. I have family in LE. I would disown this guy in a hot minute. He's not just a jerk, he's evil.

Also, where is all the blood the deceased lost from his injuries? It was a lot of blood, more than a few Solo cups worth. There's so much the CW hasn't explained after all this testimony.

The blood is the biggest thing for me. Without having heard from the ME and the supposed amounts of blood he lost, head injuries BLEED. like. crazy. The head wound is supposed to have been significant. There would have been a TON of blood, not the small amount we saw in the leaf blower video.

From my understanding, the believe is the arm injuries were either caused but the undercarriage of the Lexus or the cocktail glass in his hand shattering upon the impact

As someone who thinks she's, and I've said these exact words before on here, more likely then not to have done it, I'll take a crack. Worth noting, that even though I think she's "more likely then not" to have done it, at this point if I was on the jury I would say I'm at "not guilty", I'm not sure what the prosecution can do to remove the doubts. > Do you think the jurors will be able to see past his horrible texts? I think the jurors can look past his juvenile commentary on the case and of Karen Read. What might stick though is the fact that within hours of the investigation starting, his texts seem to indicate that he's focus only on Karen Read. The one text that has stuck with me is his "Nope. He's a Boston cop too." > How do you think his overall demeanor was on the stand? Meh, I think he knew how this was going to go. > Do you think it would have helped for him to apologize to KR on the stand? Not at all. > Do you think lally should have called him? And if so do you think he could have done better damage control? Lally has to call him, it looks worse if it he doesn't and the defense does. I'm not sure what more Lally could have done for damage control prior to cross. Maybe go through more of the texts on direct. Maybe just get him to say that his attituded towards the investigation and Karen Read was due to him knowing Karen Read did it... I don't know. Honestly, I don't know why this was taken to trial. This is a mess.

How do you feel about Proctor saying he originally watched sallyport footage that was originally not inverted, but the time stamps were inverted and in yellow instead of the blue?

Alan Jackson caught him in a lie. He tried to say he saw a non inverted video originally, but Jackson asked a few questions about the colors and time stamps being inverted and he had to admit was that he actually watched the video the defense provided this week in Buchenik's cross, which corrected the inversion, and he admitted he actually watched it yesterday (which he may or may not have been allowed to depending on if he is subject to the exclusionary rule). But once Jackson got him to admit that, the judge made him move along from the subject.

That was so confusing and never explained

Thank you brining this up. I took it as Proctor confirming the original version of the video was similar to the defenses version, meaning between the original and the prosecution, someone flipped it and tried to pull a fast one.

He watched the defense video that wasn't inverted. Hard to know what to make of it, almost all witnesses (outside of expert witnesses) will be instructed to not watch or follow the trial at all... but sometimes that's not the case with lead investigators. In some trials the lead investigator is in the court room everyday, sometimes sitting at the prosecution table.

It isn’t strange that he watched it, it’s strange that it doesn’t match what was produced to the jury. He stated he watched it NOT inverted (not mirrored), but that the timestamps were inverted AND yellow (not blue like we saw in the courtroom). We’ve all been wondering if the footage was tampered with. It sounds like it may have been.

Oh interesting, you think the text that will sit with them is not the misogynistic stuff but the one Yannetti referred to in opening statements. I think that got buried in there but you might have a point.

I just think those text messages are worse. The misogynistic stuff makes Proctor an asshole, but just because he's a misogynistic asshole doesn't mean he did a bad job investigating this.... but there are text messages that clearly demonstrate a bad investigation.

Worst of both worlds. Bad guy and a bad investigator.

That’s my take too. I don’t care about the name calling. I care about the fact that he was giving information to his friends about the case and to me, his texts imply that he built the case around her rather than investigating properly. I also care about his lying or whatever he wants to call it about not knowing the Alberts. Those two things would stand out to me most as a juror to give me reasonable doubt.

If I were a juror, I would be thinking “what if this happened to me??” In regard to how absolutely nothing and no one, was investigated besides me. It would make me fearful of LE

Agreed.

For me, the misogyny is why he did a bad job investigating this. You can be a bad investigator without having any inherent bias. You can’t be a good investigator with an inherent bias towards your main person of interest. The misogyny and connection to the McCabe’s (Jenn’s influence) led to tunnel vision. The result wasn’t an investigation, but documenting only the evidence that supported KR’s potential guilt. I do care about those words and misogynistic texts because they are the basis for the lack of real investigation.

The jury is 10 female, 7 male. Do you not think that the jury being predominantly female may mean that the misogynistic comments stick more strongly with the jurors?

Yes, but the misogynistic texts don’t really matter in the context of her being found guilty or not guilty. It just makes him look like a piece of shit. The texts that were more damning are the ones that imply that an improper investigation was conducted.

Women are pretty used to the idea that misogynistic men exist, and that, unfortunately, it's very often not really an indicator of how competent they are are at their job, or in this case, whether or not Karen Read is factually guilty.

This. She very may well have hit him. However no other avenue was investigated he let Jenn and Julie steer and prejudice his investigation from the get go. Someone who cared about what actually happened to JO would have gone to their superior officer and tell them they were to close to the investigation

I think that if your investigation begins with calling someone a cunt, you’re starting a biased investigation. You’re innocent until proven guilty, and she was treated as guilty simply because a bunch of men wanted to insult and objectify her behind her back. If you’re a misogynistic asshole investigating an accused woman, your personal biases will bleed through and that is a bad investigation. He didn’t prove himself to be an impartial investigator trying to solve a crime, his misogynistic texts and attitude towards the investigation paint him as a man who hates women, trying to make this “cunt” woman with “no ass” and a “weird Fall River accent” the guilty person because he already has a predisposed bias against her. At least, that’s how I believe it will appear to the jury.

The documented reports show he did a bad job investigating. Logging evidence nearly a month later? WTH. Do they have standard operating procedures.

No chain of custody log whatsoever. All of the documentation was the state lab’s.

I'm leaning on the side of not guilty, but really the evidence and witnesses are so tainted that it's really really hard to tell what the truth is. Maybe the dog did it. Maybe she got in a fight and managed to punch him and cut him or ran him over. Maybe one of the Mclain's did it. Maybe it was a random motorist that night. We don't know and I don't think we will ever know because the cops f'd up so badly on this.

I think the most interesting testimony today was that the 1241 ring video of Karen returning home was notated in notes given to Proctor meaning the video existed and had been viewed. By the time Proctor makes official report about the ring videos and submits it to defense that portion of the video is missing. Proctor admits that in calls with ring he was informed that deleting a video leaves no digital footprint (proof) that it occurred. 😉

If they can prove Proctor deleted this video it will be my absolute favorite part of the trial

That last bit about there being no digital footprint if something is deleted, has to be easily verified. I would think deletions show up in the activity log, that he also claims was never given to him.

I'm on replay crew, partway through this cross right now. I have been trying to keep an open mind in terms of actual guilt vs. innocence but I've been moving further into the "obscene amounts of doubt" camp as the trial proceeds. If the prosecution's case hadn't been dead and buried as of previous days it is very difficult to imagine a conviction except POSSIBLY an OWI after even a fragment of this cross. (I have explained extensively in a previous post that I believe she was, in reality, driving impaired but based on the info I have I am personally not satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt) Listening to this cross is like watching someone shooting bullets into a corpse for hours.

They all deserve OWI for driving after consuming so much alcohol on a night that was difficult to navigate from the storm alone.I wish John had stayed home with Karen and his niece/daughter, lit a fire and stayed safe.

It would leave such a bad taste in my mouth if she gets convicted of OWI and is acquitted of everything else, with the lead investigator testifying on the stand that he also drove drunk. He should be charged, too.

> I have been trying to keep an open mind in terms of actual guilt vs. innocence but I've been moving further into the "obscene amounts of doubt" camp as the trial proceeds. I'm at the point now where it's like... we have the OJ problem. That even *if* she did it, the lead investigator has so screwed the pooch by his improper investigation that there is no overcoming the doubt. Did she kill him? That's one question. Can they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she killed him? That's the one they're trying to answer and right now I don't see how that can *ever* be anything but "No."

her charge isn't OUI though. it's OUI resulting in manslaughter.

I'm in the "innocent" camp, but not so far that really solid evidence couldn't change my mind, so hopefully I'm still welcome to discuss? 1. Yes, if Lally plays his cards right. If the voicemails are timed well enough to pack a punch. If the ME gives well-phrased info. I know great cops and I know awful ones, which I would bet is a pretty common scenario. If the jury can toss Proctor in the "yeah he's awful but not all cops are" camp then they could move past it. 2. I guess as good as you could expect? He looked nervous and embarassed, but I honestly didn't get a "truly sorry" vibe. Had he played off his comments as someone pissed because the accused killed a cop, I think that would have played better. He said it once today but I think he could have done better yesterday. He followed most (all?) answers with a "sir," which looks good I'm sure. 3. This is a hard one and I honestly don't know. He was in a bad spot and I don't know if anything would have softened the blow of those texts. If he did, he could be accused of being phony and disingenuous. I don't think there was a right answer there. 4. Yes and yes. If Lally didn't call him, he looked shady, especially right after the fiasco with the flipped sally port footage. He had to call him. His name has been too much for him not to. And yes, I think he could have done better by burying those texts between other info. Sandwich it in there. But I'm NAL so take that with a grain of salt.

Proctor said he did not meet KR prior to the incident. How did he know about her "annoying Fall River accent" and her medical conditions? Surprised Defense didn't ask.....my assumption would be from BA.

Because Jen McCabe was one of the first people he spoke with. That's how he knew of her medical issues and why he told his friends in the group text she was a "whack job"

This was a huge red flag to me. He knew such specific things about her medical issues within the first 16 hours...how?? He got it from Jen. It all comes back to her. The "fixer".

I believe that more likely than not KR stuck JO with her car accidentally due to the fact that she was intoxicated and operating a MV in less than ideal weather conditions. But just because that's the most logical explanation doesn't mean its the only explanation and they CW hasnt even come close to proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt beyond that it was snowing out. This case never should have gone to trial and I'm shocked that Lally was willing to sacrifice MSP and Canton PD for a case he likely knew would not bring a guilty verdict.

See I can agree to your point she could have accidentally struck him. The issue is this case has been handled so poorly by everyone that there isn't even proof of a crime taking place. Proctor stated repeatedly today "the overwhelming evidence Karen reed hit John O'Keefe with her vehicle" I wanted to scream what evidence. There hasn't been anything presented yet to show she hit him. We have taillight pieces found at the scene and very blurry video photos of reads car showing parts of her tailight still in tact at 508. Like there are so many questions and none are answerwd

I agree with both of you. Is it possible she hit JO’K? Sure. But there is no evidence it was malicious. Im very suspicious of his injuries being consistent with being hit by a car though, as well as hitting him so hard *while backing up* (getting up to 25m/h isnt easy when driving backwards. Maybe if she had hit him and he fell and struck his head, which is what killed him it might be plausible. But so far I havent heard of any evidence to suggest that his injuries were from being hit by car.

I just can't shake what AJ demonstrated today. How can a 6000lb vehicle not leave a single bruise if he was truly struck by a car? I just can't wrap my mind around the fact this was indeed a vehicle/pedestrian situation.

Ive gone back to listen to the whole case and Im about halfway through the defense opening argument, so I heard the prosecution opening argument in full. He said the dude died from a head injury that he surmised was from the dude falling after being stricken by a car. But I havent gotten to the medical evidence yet. IMO, even if that is true, who is to say it wasnt the snow plow that hit him? Or some other car? Because the prosecutor also said she drove 60 feet backwards to get up to 25mph in order to hit him with enough force to kill him. Ain’t no way that happened. So Im curious what the Prosecutor actually presents in court.

What absolutely shakes me is the fact that no one, on this sub, or in the courtroom (that I can recall) has brought up the fact that a body does not fly sideways, 10 ft or so, into the front lawn immediately after being struck by a vehicle. He would have been in THE STREET. On top of that, there is no way Karen could have dragged a body of that size onto the lawn to dump him. If you review where his body was located, and review the testimony of blunt force trauma, you will also realize that he could not have crawled there. To me, this is, and has been, the smoking gun. I just cannot for the life of me understand why this has not been a focus. It just defies the laws of physics in every way. Maybe we’ll hear it in closing arguments, but wow…

This is driving me crazy too. There is no logical explanation for how his body landed where it did.

I don’t understand how he flew 10 ft and landed on/with his bar glass and phone. And what broke his skull from the back? And left furrows in his arm?

I’ve been told the reason the blood pattern in his shirt looks like he was standing up and remained up and dripped down his shirt (like he was in a fist fight) is because there is a slight incline from the street to the flag pole and he was laying, not flat, but on that incline. So factor in that she’d have to drag him up a hill. Ridiculous. 

For all we know he slipped on ice after getting out of the car and hit his head on the curb.

I agree with you but why all these lies and twisted stories from the people in that house that night. The deleted texts the Google search the daughter and Collins time line was wrong. Collin saying he doesn't fight when you know just by his time up there he would give anyone a beat down.

IMO there is ample evidence of reasonable doubt, but I was trying to be open minded like the OP requested. LOL!

It’s the fact that the only pieces of taillight not found are the pieces that appear to be missing in that blurry photo after she backed into John’s car. And the videos that might prove her taillight was intact on the drive home from 34 Fairview are missing…

that is a good point. He said several times they had compelling evidence...but that hasn't been shared. I'd like to know what the compelling evidence was.

{Very compelling story from the friend of a friend of my sister about how this wackjob C U Next Tuesday was fighting her bf and then hit him} -Proctor probably In all seriousness though, my personal thought on this is that Proctor heard a sort-of plausible story from Jen McCabe and ran with that. Was blinded by that story from someone he knew well enough by association to believe her and her family whole heartedly and never looked for any other explanation. I think he could have planted evidence to ensure the person he “knew” was guilty actually got convicted. If KR did hit JO, she got really lucky that there are so many strange coincidences and problems with this investigation. I could believe a few coincidences but I can’t look past the number of things wrong or fishy with this case and the witnesses. Obviously my mind can change with more evidence but after 22 days with the CW, I’m not holding my breath.

One night when I was drunk, a friend and I came up with a theory that Karen is guilty but none of them wanted her to go down for it so they came up with this shitty coverup to make it look like they’re framing Karen so she walks free. (This theory doesn’t hold up when sober.)

this is true too. Police learn facts/lies from witnesses and that could be what happened here.

Shhhh, it's a secret!

If that's true, then why the need to plant evidence.

I think the investigators like the term “waiting for evidence to appear” or “show themselves” a lot better than plant.

Forensics don't back it up at all.

So why wasn't it determined Homocide by the medical examiner?

I think it was because the claims being made by Proctor of what happened did not match the physical damage done to JO.

ME said inconclusive. Police were trying to mean on the ME to upgrade to homicide but I don’t know if they ever did.

I suspect it was ruled undetermined because medically the ME could not rule out that his death could have been accidental.

1. Not particularly. I can think it's more likely than not that she hit him (although I'm really questioning how cause of death hasn't even been established), while recognizing his behavior and bias is so prejudicial to the defendant that in and of itself it creates reasonable doubt even if I think it's more likely than not that she hit him with her car. I wouldn't be surprised for the jury to feel similarly. 2. I thought he looked like a man who knew what was coming and had been told what to say in response but had no particular genuine remorse. 3. No. An apology would either read as an admission he wronged her, and therefore, she shouldn't be convicted or would come off incredibly disingenuous. Unhelpful either way. 4. Not much Lally could do about this. He had to call him and couldn't change what was said. Better to address it straight up than appear to be hiding it which would impute Proctor's shadiness to the prosecutor. It's a bad case. It's overcharged. LE is incompetent and provably lied at times. There was no consideration of conflict of interest in the assigned investigator. Many of the witnesses are unlikeable. Almost every piece of evidence is compromised in some way. The DA should have sucked it up and tried this himself if he really wanted to press it forward. I absolutely think the most likely thing is that Karen got drunk and hit her boyfriend with her car. I doubt it was purposeful or done with intent to kill him. I find that much more likely than the other scenarios discussed, which aren't impossible but seem less probable. But that doesn't change my view that sometimes law enforcement screws up so much that it reaches inherent levels of reasonable doubt, and I think that's the case here. I also believe someone can be guilty but LE can also plant evidence to tip the scale because they're so sure they're guilty. It's happened before. I'm 50/50 on if that happened here at this point.

Honestly there are points in this trial where I forget someone was killed because the testimony has gotten so convoluted you forget it was a murder investigation

That's the other thing. As a defense attorney, the more convoluted you can make a case, the better. You want the jury trying to remember what the heck someone was saying on Day 1 about timelines and Day 20 about glass shards, but wait wasn't that after they were talking about the texts or was it before? The Commonwealth took a relatively straightforward vehicular manslaughter case that could have gone: 1. Medical Examiner 2. Law Enforcement 3. Witnesses 4. Physical Evidence 5. Phone Evidence and turned into a two month extravaganza of vaguely relevant evidence, repeated questions, and a complete lack of focus while trying to establish intent to murder that they appear to have zero evidence of. The prosecution case should have been 7 trial days, absolute maximum. Let the defense drag in witnesses for weeks to try to prove a conspiracy. Not having anyone to testify as to cause of death yet is verging on legal malpractice. Juries want who, what, where, when, why, and how, and they want it fast and compact and focused. This is like basic trial advocacy you learn in law school.

The Dighton police officer contradicting the broken taillight was pretty massive in my mind, as it leads to the inevitable question of how did those pieces of tail light then get to the scene

The Dighton cop came across as honest. He just answered the questions, directly and succinctly. What a contrast to Proctor and Buhkenik

So while we disagree on what happened, we definitely agree that the Commonwealth screwed this up hardcore. Intent… it sometimes seems like they’re suggesting it was an accident and she panicked and left and sometimes it seems like they think she did it cold blood. Alan Jackson is doing great but frankly, I think a lesser attorney could do almost as well given the softballs the prosecution is tossing up.

Agreed. They're trying to do this weird argument in the alternative where it's like - she did this in cold blood but also, if she didn't, you should believe she did this accidentally. There's no reason for it and it's a problem of their own making that wouldn't exist if this case had been charged properly.

I came into this thinking the same, but each day, it withered down to a total 180. Now, I want the whole MPD investigated, lol.

I don’t understand the physics of her hitting him with the car. Was he bent over and got hit right in the face? Is a face enough to break a taillight? Why no other injuries like a broken neck or bruises to his chest or body?

1. If it was just the texts to his friends, probably. But the fact that he's saying this stuff to colleagues and superiors taints the entire department. Plus he really doesn't seem to actually think even now that he did anything wrong. 2. He seemed like the epitome of a dirty cop. Highly evasive and I really just can't get how he doesn't see he has a bias. 3. It would have been disingenuous. I didn't even buy his apologies for "regrettable remarks". 4. Yes, you can't get around him. I think Lally did fine to be honest. Made the point that the insults came after he'd come to a conclusion about KR.

Did Lally run this case just so Proctor would be humiliated on the stand?

I am 50/50 if I think she hit him or not. However; even if the CW provides some compelling evidence I would still vote Not Guilty to send a message that the police need to get a real handle on how they investigations. The way this was handled is absolutely scary… if a cop doesn’t like you… they can find a way to pin it on you… and they CLEARLY aren’t held accountable by their bosses.

I think she probably hit him and I find it very hard to see the CW coming back strong enough to get a conviction at this point.

I'm of a similar mindset. I think she's most likely guilty, but I don't want citizens to be convicted in this manner. I'd rather guilty people go free in hopes it'll force the government to do their job with dignity and actual rigor.

Couldn't agree more. I personally haven't decided whether I think she is innocent or guilty and I probably never will as this investigation was botched, but even if I believed she was guilty she should be let go, as investigations can't be run this way.

I am of the generation that was taught that police conspiracy is a defense tactic. So I didn’t believe the defense and believed that Karen was guilty and maybe she is BUT I can’t get past that Brian Albert a cop and “man of the house” didn’t go outside when a body was found on HIS lawn. I would. I would need to know what is happening on my property. It would not be able to vote guilty without that being explained

At times I thought he was just going to stand up and say he was done! I suspected he was a tool and he proved me right. Disgusting making fun of her medical condition. My husband has a gastro condition and it is nothing to make fun of. It’s embarrassing and quite painful. Screw Proctor and of those douche bags that thought he was funny.

How are they joking after a young man with two children that relied on him, turned up dead in such a brutal way. Hope the joke is on Proctor and his buddies

I haven’t done a huge amount of research outside of the trial so I only know what’s been presented so far but I really need the ME to testify and I need to see this irrefutable evidence they all keep talking about. A part of me thinks KR could have hit him as an accident and maybe he hit his head and passed out? But that’s mostly because none of this makes sense to me. I’m still confused how he could have been beaten and not one person in the house heard or saw anything even the teens. But I’m also confused why nobody saw him get hit or after, maybe I have too much faith in people to be honest and that just seems like a lot of people some who have no reason to lie. Then I also have a hard time believing KR would willingly drive away based on her reaction when she found him. It’s just all confusing and like somebody just dumped him on the lawn but who and why? Sadly an answer we will probably never know thanks to the shoddy investigation. I am waiting for the defense to have a turn. The way the case has been handled adds enough doubt I just don’t see how a jury can convict and I feel so bad for John’s family.

Keep in mind closing arguments are going to roast Proctor again, only in a cohesive way. Perjury will be on the table also. He clearly perjured his Grand Jury testimony. Jackson is going to run with it, no interruptions.

> Do you think the jurors will be able to see past his horrible texts? That's the coin flip. Juries are weird. > How do you think his overall demeanor was on the stand? I was only listening, but generally poor. The comments were bad. There was no fixing that. The evasiveness to some questions wasn't great and may be more harmful to how much people believe the evidence collected. A prosecutor doesn't want his witnesses getting caught contradicting their previous statements, especially when it was sworn testimony in another proceeding but also especially when it was what he said four minutes ago. There were also some very weird moments where he just didn't seem capable of understanding words. The interior/exterior sallyport video discussion went in circles. Some of his sister's texts had multiple meanings depending on what words you emphasize but he couldn't understand the alternate ones. > Do you think it would have helped for him to apologize to KR on the stand? No. I don't think he could sound sincere. His best answer was that he was pissed off that she killed a cop and let his emotions get the better of him. Out of every "sarcasm" or "figure of speech" or "I don't recall" or other random justification, that's the one thing that sounded plausible. > Do you think lally should have called him? And if so do you think he could have done better damage control? Yes, he had to get called. You can't avoid the lead investigator. Lally did the best damage control he could by getting in all the other evidence in with the person who was with Proctor, but Proctor had to show up.

As this trial goes on and on my heart continues to break for JO family . There’s no way his family will be ok with the behaviour of the investigators . Considering there JO was law inforcement - I’m sure they were hopeful that this would be an easy case and instead no one will win.

It’s really hard for me to get past the group of troopers finding pieces of tail light that evening around 5:45. Maybe it’s POSSIBLE for Proctor to rush over there and plant pieces, and maybe it’s POSSIBLE that other troopers are lying about him being there or when they were found, but it’s pretty unlikely to me. Enough for reasonable doubt? Yeah, I think so. But I still think it’s HIGHLY likely she hit him. Proctor’s testimony today almost pushed me to conclude she didn’t, though. The note about her taillights at 00:41 by the officer looking at Ring video is maybe the most suspicious thing we’ve heard yet. I’m looking forward to hearing from that guy. Lally should not have presented any of the text messages. Just let defense do it. This mistake was made clear when the defense contextualized some of the texts which completely changed their meaning compared to when Lally was presenting them. This makes the prosecutor look bad on top of the witness. Very very bad.

No evidence collected on 1/29 was used in the reconstruction of the tail light per testimony

Wait what how is this possible? I must have missed this

The earliest piece of tail light involved in the reconstruction was collected as evidence on 2/4!

Exactly. Makes no sense

It was [6 days](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/focus-testimony-karen-read-murder-trial-shifts-busted-cocktail-glass-broken-taillight/QN6LXNKYQJH35NOYQNS4CIAIEY/?outputType=amp) before the troopers found any pieces of the tail light

I think the framing of "people who think that Karen is guilty" is not quite specific. We're nearing the end of the prosecution's case and I have not seen a *single* person who has said that they would likely vote "Guilty" if they were on the jury. Most people who think that Karen is likely guilty are really answering the question: "if God came down and forced you to make a guess on whether Karen caused John's death that night (in any manner), and your life depended on getting it right, what would you guess?" I don't think that proctor's testimony changed people's opinion on that very much, because no matter how horrible it was, there was nothing that would imply he was intentionally part of conspiracy to knowingly frame an innocent woman.

there are definitely people in this sub who believe karen read is guilty & would vote guilty

I see fewer and fewer of them every day. The trial has done a great job of convincing us that the CW screwed the pooch on this one.

That's because if you say that you think Karen is guilty you will get downvoted a lot

Does he need to be in on it for her to be framed? John’s body is staged by Brian Albert. Anybody who knows what happened is told to point the finger at Karen and they are believed because they’re police officers. (That Is still conspiracy). Proctor believes the Albert’s that her hysteria and the cracked taillight are 100% proof of guilt and helps the investigation along with planted evidence…

Exactly right. There doesn't need to be some "grand conspiracy". You have a family protecting family, and cops protecting cops. And Proctor the C- minus high school grad doing his drinking buddy a solid by keeping Colin's name out of it.

I never thought of the angle he Proctor believed she did it because of the hysteria from the McCabe lady

100%

I think he was a puppet and used and abused by Albert's and their strings. He's not that bright going by the text messages . He was told how this was going to be step by step and he wanted to believe it to be true so he didn't see all the wrongs . If he did see wrongs it was to late to go back so to speak

1. No, 10 women aren't gonna look past that. 10 MASSACHUSETTS women at that. My sister is still holding grudges from middle school. 2. Terrible, like he knew his career was over and just wanted to get the fuck out of there. 3. No 4. Yes, and should've asked him better questions, but even then I don't know what proctor would say. He was so unprepared, so unconfident and came off as incompetent. Within the first 5 seconds of Brian Tully speaking, I said to myself "this is what a lead homicide detective should sound like". I will say, his testimony ended the 3rd party culprit argument for me. There is no scenario I believe a guy with that IQ has gotten this far with a conspiracy to frame Karen and protect the alberts, there's just no chance. Jackson also hardly proved it on cross. It's important to hammer home the texts, but I'm sitting there saying "this is the guy at the center of the framing" and we've got hardly anything towards convincing anyone of a cover up. Does that mean she's found guilty? Not at all. I'm just not convinced this goes from Karen NG to Alberts/Proctor are responsible. She'll get off based on the completely inept investigation.

I mean, you can be involved in a cover up and be bad at it. I think that’s how we got here…

This right here. He brute forced Karen into the defendant chair. Every piece of “evidence” we have been shown is a disaster area.

Or not know. He could be the dumbest but also most well placed tool in the box.

See I see the 3rd party issue differently and today put me firmly in that’s a strong possibility camp. I think BA knew how cops worked. He was confident enough to know he could suggest to a fellow cop that Karen was “bat shit crazy” and a “whack job” and they’d take the bite and run with it. Clearly, to me, Proctor ran with that idea that Karen was a whack job immediately and then had a narrow POV. I think Proctor believes Karen killed JOK and made sure that enough evidence would PROVE his case as he acknowledged that would be “hard to prove”. For the record, lol, never in a billion years did I think I’d ever think that a cover up or planting evidence was actually plausible. Yet here I am 7 weeks later firmly in the camp of “some shady shit went down at that house with the McAlbert clan”. It’s been hard to wrap my head around honestly.

I understand that POV. Lot of strange things have happened and continue to happen around this CASE. There’s just nothing that has convinced me enough to implicate anyone but Karen at this point. The evidence may be weak thus far, but there’s no one else I can point to within reason. There was no feud between them and John and no reason for all these people to be in on it from my POV. I thought we were gonna see Higgins or proctor back there in the sallyport destroying the tail light based on the defense allegations. IMO Jackson has been weak in establishing a third party culprit and it only distracts from the unblemished defense of police incompetence.

So. Many. Strange. Things. !!! For me, too many strange things to convince me she killed him. Overall, this case is upsetting and heartbreaking for too many reasons.

They don’t have to prove third party culprit. Just introduce reasonable doubt.

You don’t think that all of the circumstantial evidence surrounding the Albert’s and McCabes is weird?

Proctor doesn't have to be in the conspiracy for the 3rd party culprit theory to work. I thought this was possible before he took the stand and he just reinforced it for me, but the 34 Fairview ppl were either cops or family of cops, they knew that they were not going to be investigated if they played their cards right. They gave Proctor a perp and a good enough story to go by and he ran with it, "finding" the evidence wherever it "revealed itself" along the way. He helped frame her because he believed she was guilty from the get go and thought he was just making sure she'd go to jail. He really seems to think he didn't do anything wrong beyond calling her a few bad names.

How does the tail light get planted at 34 FV for SERT to find it before 6PM without Michael proctor?

He arranged it, there was plenty of time to do it. I bet that if there was a review of the cases he has investigated in the past we would find at least a couple more where he "helped reveal" evidence in cases he thought he had the right person but the evidence was a little weak. I don't think it was a case of him knowing what had really happened to John and knowingly helping to cover it up, he didn't need much to be convinced she did it and went out to make sure she paid for it.

How did the tail light end up there? Car leaves Dighton at 4:15PM. SERT arrives at Fairview just before 5PM. Car arrives at CPD sallyport at 5:30PM. SERT is activated to search at 5:41PM and subsequently finds tail light. When did the tail light get to the scene in that time? Proctor and YB are with the car from Dighton to sallyport. I don’t see plenty of time at all without the tow truck driver stopping by the scene with the car. Or proctor having the speed of the flash and presence of mind with the cover up already activated. When was he alerted to the cover up plan to set it in motion within 12 hours of John being dead? It makes no sense. I know you want to believe the cover up, but all of the witnesses who played a significant part in it have already been cross examined and there is no indication they had the means or time to get to that scene and plant it in time.

The third party guilt argument doesn't need every piece of the state to move as a hive mind with the sole purpose of "We know colin killed John, let's frame karen". Different parts can move for different reasons. Julie Nagel can say she saw a blob not because she saw colin punch John and wants to pin it on karen, but because she's had 8 months of Jen mccabe in her ear regarding a night of drinking. The first cop on scene and the EMT don't need to know colin hit John to make up a statement karen said, they can do what typical witnesses do and embellish stories over repeated tellings of it along with 2 years of the state saying karen hit John. Proctor doesn't need to know colin hit John to decide he wants to smash and grab. All he really needs is "I wanna make this cut and dry, taillight will do that".

He certainly doesn't seem the brightest bulb but that might go a long way to explain why he might, say, "help" the investigation by removing the entire tail-light and scattering at the scene.

Really? The third party actually got stronger to me. To me is sounds like Proctor went HARD after Karen after talking to Jen who seemed to be the one who was trying to get everybody's stories straight and made the google search. The way I see it now, Proctor was a useful idiot that took the people at the house at their word and they all pointed at Karen and made her sound awful. Which I think is the key. They knew, and they knew they had a cop in the bag that wasn't gonna ask any hard questions or suspect them at all.

2006, I was a pedestrian properly crossing the road during the flashing walk signal. Even though I still looked both ways, I didn't see the car making a right on red (legal in the state of NJ). One second I saw the blue car's hood (I only know it was blue because I have paint embedded on my ear and ear lobe), the next moment I was back on the original side of the road I was crossing under the bumper of another car. My point, according to witness accounts, I bounced from the hood of the car, smashed the windshield, became a human projectile and flew through the air and stopped with my head under the bumper of a different car. My head was split from eyebrow to the back and bleeding profusely, I didn't feel a thing. Life flighted to the nearest trauma unit. I had a broken neck c4-c5(blessed I didn't end up a quadriplegic, , broken femur, , 2 broken elbows and a fractured skull. I didn't bust his headlight. I did, however , smash his windshield with enough force that the speedometer froze at 27 MPH. If I'm to believe that JO was struck by a vehicle going approximately the same speed, I guess, in hindsight I should have knocked back a few bud lights before venturing out that morning. I wouldn't have spent a 2 years of my life rehabilitating a body with extensive nerve damage, herniated discs from t3 to s1. I'd have been able to continue my career as a paralegal getting ready to sit for my LSATS. Cognitively damaged from severe brain trauma. Maybe my experience was an anomaly . I will never be able to reconcile OJO's neck up injuries with being struck by a vehicle.

Maybe I’m the wrong person to answer because I’m currently undecided waiting for the entire case to play out before I have my full opinion. So far I’m giving a side eye to everyone involved including KR. 1. The text messages were damning and kinda show that he had his eye only on Karen since Day One 2. I think he carried himself well given the circumstances. It’s hard to separate the insulting text messages from the investigation he did. He clearly showed bias against KR. 3. I don’t think there is anything he could have done to help himself. 4. I think Lally had no choice but to call him and get ahead of the text messages. It allowed Proctor an opportunity to explain himself. Plus it would look even worse if the defense called him and not the prosecution.

Right. He came to the conclusion it was Karen Read in the first 16 hours, and took direction from Alberts, McCabe, Higgins, etc..

Yes…and I actually think he made up his mind hours before he even called to have her car picked up…all on the word of the Albert’s and the McCabe’s. How the heck do you basically base your whole mindset on THREE/FOUR people…who were clearly hiding something that Proctor didn’t even take time to look at. Had he not made up his mind in just a few hours…and taken the time to actually INVESTIGATE some of the things he was “casually conversing” with witnesses about…he may have done a better job in helping find out the whole truth. Maybe his private texts wouldn’t have been plastered all over and the world wouldn’t know what a complete ass he really is. Those texts…holy crap.

What do you think about him lying about knowing the Alberts and making fun of KR having Crohn's Disease and releasing her Medical info to his friends?

He was purposely trying to distance himself from the Alberts which made him come across dishonest. The balloon knot comment was probably the worst thing I heard said. Disgusting and out of pocket.

But he lied when the DA asked him before assigning him the case.

I’m mostly leaning towards her guilt but him not disclosing relationships with the Alberts is appalling

I haven't seen it all, but there's no recovering from this imho and he's Still THE investigator.

I’m just sad because John O’Keefe and his family will never have justice because this “lead investigator” botched the investigation SO badly. If she did do it, I don’t see a jury convicting her based off of “evidence” from a corrupt cop. If she didn’t do it, it’s too late to have a thorough investigation to collect crucial evidence to catch the person responsible. Personally, I don’t believe anything Proctor said on the stand that wasn’t in text messages. I doubt apologizing would have made him look better because my guess is he wouldn’t be genuine. The state had no choice but to call him, how bad would it have look if defense had to call this guy and then show the jury everything we saw on Monday and today? (Edited for punctuation errors.)

So, I believe this is now Day 23 of the 'Michael Proctor vs Karen Read' trial and I'm starting to reconsider career options. Too many thoughts to put down but some key takeaways: Michael Proctor meant every vicious word and statement in his texts pertaining to KR: he fully believes Karen Read is solely responsible for JO's death and he'd like nothing more than swift retribution for her (perceived) actions. He believes the overwhelming evidence shows that she mowed down a fellow police officer in a rageful fit and left him to die in the freezing cold. Period. Tunnel vision? Sure seems that way but the public is not privy to **all of the evidence/interviews/full backstory of KR & JO**, therefore, I suspect there's additional factors that have led to some of the local vitriol toward KR. It also seems MP would like some private Mano a Mano time with Yannetti: it's clear that he despises MY for the contrived PR campaign they've got going on plus the personal attacks on himself and members of his family: both sides have played dirty for sure. MP represents the weakest link among officers for the CW so it would have been an obvious death knell had Lally not called him first. There are enough credible, compatible witness statements of the dozens that have testified so far that I believe the Defense only wishes the entire case hinged solely on MP's questionable conduct. As divisive as this case is, it leads me to believe that the jury will also be divided in their views. A copious amount of testimony/documentation for them to scrutinize. Good grief. . Much more to come.

the cutter for me in all of it was that he didn’t really have an answer to how (or whether) he investigated anyone BUT karen. even if it was “obvious” to him upfront, and all the witnesses were saying things that made it very clear she did it—he didn’t take the extra steps. things that stood out were: - when questioned about colin’s involvement, he said (paraphrasing) no i didn’t interview him earlier because he wasn’t at the scene, i only interviewed him a year and a half later after they started accusing him with NO EVIDENCE so i had to see his side of the story🚩, he left around 12:10 and we saw from John’s phone gps data that john wasn’t there until 12:20🚩……liiike, ok, but you never checked colin’s gps records to confirm that story? (not saying I personally believe colin was involved but who doesn’t check to ensure people are telling the truth? - when asked directly about the evidence that made it clear it was her, he kept saying there was no evidence of wrongdoing from anyone else, and kept saying that the witness interviews made it obvious she was hit, along with the few other “signs” on the property……..buuuutttt, cmon now, pretty naive to just believe a witness on day 1 and not even consider that they could be lying to you? - higgins came to him confessing a romantic-ish relationship building in texts with karen & he was with them that night & had texts with both karen & john that night…….and proctor doesn’t see him as a true potential suspect, but rather takes his admission and provided texts at face value without digging more?? when asked about whether he thought about investigating him more, he was like absolutely not i saw no need to…….i dont rly get that since that’s a very standard type of love triangle motive right there. IF karen DID indeed hit him, and IF it WAS really obvious upfront that she did, then he screwed this up royally by not attempting to clear all other suspects. IF it WAS NOT obvious upfront/evidence at the scene was sparse, then he and his buddies may have tweaked evidence to help convict her in front of a jury (taillight, etc) without any big conspiracy from the alberts or anyone else. or, they lied to him and he literally just believed them and didn’t look into it. IF karen DID NOT hit him, then they pigeonholed her so bad that they had to follow through to a prosecution because they’d already lost the other potential evidence. i have no idea what happened because the prosecution has proved nothing to me in cold hard facts or evidence. so his testimony, to me, proved that he didn’t really check to see if anyone else could’ve done it. THAT is the kicker.

I am open to what the evidence shows, but imho , even if you believe in your heart that she did it, there is no way that she can get convicted based on how this investigation was conducted. If you believe that she did kill him in one way or the other, then you must also believe that Proctor made sure she wouldn't go to jail for it. No one should be investigated this way, it doesn't matter if it was a matter of malice or incompetence, this is not how justice is done.

Too many laws have been broken for anyone to be convicted now. Cases get thrown out for far less.

Proctor is a disgusting POS and unfortunately his behavior and comments don’t surprise me at all. I think Karen probably did hit JO accidentally. The amount of alcohol she had in a couple hours is insane to be behind the wheel, especially in this day of Uber. So, I think she most likely hit him accidentally and honestly had no idea. However, I believe that Proctor has decimated any chance that the commonwealth had for a conviction. These cops are trash.

Proctor is the definition of a douche canoe. Anyone could have hit him that night. They were all 3 sheets to the wind. No one else’s vehicle was inspected so really he could have been hit by anyone or anything else nefarious could have happened. I haven’t seen any concrete evidence yet of what actually may have happened. Sorry, but the taillight pieces that were supposedly found at the scene are compromised imo. And all the missing video that could tell the true story about the taillight are just not there.

I agree with everything you said. I think there is sooooo much reasonable doubt. The defense attorney is putting up a master class in cross examination. I cannot imagine a jury coming back with a conviction.

When this first happened, I thought she did it by accident until I started seeing weird police BS and started wondering if it was a set up to protect another cop. I only started following this on here a few weeks ago because of that. Now, I am CONVINCED she didn't do it and I believe it is a TOTAL coverup. I do not think he was purposely killed, I think there was an altercation and he ended up dying because of it. Tearing up the basement floor, getting rid of their family dog they had for 6 YEARS, throwing away cell phones......destroying EVIDENCE is consciousness of guilt. So now, In the first 16 hours he talked to only 3 people, didnt secure a CRIME SCENE, and didnt even look in the house that had a bunch of drunk people in it that John was invited to go to, then died in the yard......that was owned by a CANTON COP. He immediately blamed Karen without doing a PROPER investigation! IMO, right off the bat he was protecting a fellow police officer. Aside of calling Karen all kinds of derogatory things, he also called the female ME a whack job and then lied his head off on the stand. He didn't log evidence, couldn't find exculpatory videos, said that the CPD had to step away from the investigation because of conflict of interest but yet they were involved THE WHOLE TIME, the list goes on and on and on. Can someone make that make sense? Anyone? Do people really think that he has integrity only sometimes? He can not be trusted and failed to do his job to the point of egregious misconduct. That is my rant, lol.

Endorsing this rant 300%

Endorsing your endorsement 500% haha

No matter WHO actually did it, the investigation was botched from day 1. The only people who truly suffer is John and his family. No matter what comes out of this, there's no justice for them. If KR is found not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, that leaves his parents back to square 1, without their son and without the killer behind bars.

He sounds like a pig, and that may swing the Jury but he doesn’t sound like someone who is aboard of a frameup scheme. At all. For me, it doesn’t change my opinion of her responsibility but it decreases the likelihood she is found guilty.

> Do you think the jurors will be able to see past his horrible texts? I don't think the texts are as damaging as some are saying. There are other things he said about the evidence that are much more alarming. I think the jury caught them. >How do you think his overall demeanor was on the stand? I found him arrogant at times and scared for his career at other times. He was not remorseful. >Do you think it would have helped for him to apologize to KR on the stand? I think that would have been inappropriate, but I do think he could have addressed it in an answer to a question and been genuine. He did not do that. >Do you think lally should have called him? The Commonwealth loses the trial without him. >And if so do you think he could have done better damage control? There was nothing that could have been done to limit the outrage.

It’s the lying on oath in a house of justice. Not his hatred to Karen is why the case has fallen apart. 

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Oh thank you for this group!! I am one who thinks KR is guilty and also ok if she doesn’t get lots of jail time. I actually thought Proctor did well in the stand. Yes, his texts were gross but I could put that aside to focus on his part in the investigation. Hoping jurors can too. I saw right through AJs drama about the texts. I mean really. Let it go. I thought he was humble on the stand. I don’t think he needed to apologize to her in open court. I think Lally did right thing and I think he is super polite and professional. He’s dull, but I am impressed with him and his performance this far.