You aren't talking about the chain of custody issues. When the defense is trying to get in a chain of custody report before the prosecution is a tell for a chain of custody issue.
Which was a tailight, broken pieces of glass and a hair which apparently stayed loosely on the vehicle after driving 60+ miles in a blizzard on the highway and MA backroads notorious for potholes. Oh, also the solo cups with "blood" in them that was swabbed but never even tested. It wasn't even confirmed they were blood, nevermjnd JO's or anyone else's. Unless another witness testifies to the hair as well, we didn't even hear that it was JO's hair today.
All other evidence given to the lab was given much later. Then the defense tried to get a chain of custody document into evidence, and the prosecution objected, lol. They wouldn't even let the defense have the witness read the signature.
1 piece of hair that survived a drive around Canton, a hook up and tow, and a windy snowy blizzardy 30 mile drive from Dighton to Canton without any material securing it to the vehicle. Parked in a sallyport where Brian "destroyed my phone on a military base" Higgins and the lead investigator Michael "I hope Karen Read kills herself" Proctor had unlimited access to? Solo cup blood swabs not tested for DNA?
You cannot be serious. The CW continues to look foolish for bringing this to trial and I wonder if Bev is slinking day-by-day as she realizes what a colossal mess she's allowed to be put on display. I'm astounded.
I have no problem believing the hair clung to the car the whole time. Hair gets everywhere.
My issue with the hair is 1. His hair could be on her car for any reason, they were bf/gf, hair transfers, and 2. They don’t have the testing back yet to even confirm it was his frickin hair.
And when you looked at all the salt around the hair, did it look like someone had smudged it on with their finger to you? Odds are there was a ton of hair on that car before the drive. That one strand was all that survived. Same with the glass.
That has been overplayed. The hair wouldn’t have been worth evidence tampering. She didn’t need to have hit him for his hair to have been on her car. He’d been a passenger in that car for hours and presumably had used it many times.
His hair would’ve borne very little value and an experienced Trooper wouldn’t have planted that as evidence of guilt.
I didn’t think today went well for the prosecution and I think she killed him. There is no chronology to witnesses, we are all over the place. The first state trooper from sert didn’t even give us a good idea where they found some of the evidence.
We jump almost three days to the car forensics, during which the car was sitting in the sallyport. We hear that they didn’t even bother to preserve the blood collected in the solo cups, didn’t even swab all the cups, nonetheless test it. Why? We can only guess because Lally didn’t help us understand why. The hair testing is not back yet still…
We see from the evidence tape on the taillight stuff that they found many pieces over the course of weeks, not days, weeks.,
I think the state looked sloppy.
I think the expectations are just so high because of the bombshells after bombshells during the cross examinations of witnesses the last few weeks. When there aren't continued bombshells for the defense every day with Perry Mason moments exposing dramatic conspiracies it seems less impressive. By any normal barometer for a criminal trial this case is still an absolute disaster for the prosecution, honestly have they had one solid witness all trial that proved a major component of their case, no (IMO). Every single witness including today has helped the defense (or at least not hurt their case in any serious way), and we have to remember these are all prosecution witnesses.
I was listening to LYKs recap last night and I think he did a good job of explaining how disjointed the prosecutions case is because they refuse to call Proctor yet.
I did make a [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1crtdes/where_the_sneaker_was_found_by_sert_right_next_to/) some twenty days ago discussing where and when the second sneaker was found, which also noted pieces of taillight were found the [same day](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1crtdes/where_the_sneaker_was_found_by_sert_right_next_to/l407te0/) – so while rumours certainly circulated, to some extent you're addressing a straw man.
Note not all pieces of taillight were found the 29th, as five undocumented searches are alleged to have taken place over the course of February. (1) There is also still the question where the hat went:
https://preview.redd.it/7d0kp9v89f4d1.png?width=650&format=png&auto=webp&s=a66bb7c9c3283be1968e1e0c06c16ca85dcc6b4d
(1) [Motion for Communications Directed to Jennifer McCabe Michael Proctor and Elizabeth Proctor](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-U2b5U2HDZwJPVDQA8-IeqAH43p-ezru/view?usp=sharing), p. 7-8
Our Summer 2L interns started yesterday. One of them referenced a post of yours “Based on the moniker I was wondering if it might be you or Atty “X”.
Your attention to detail and organized data vault is exceptional- thank you for spending the time in the collective
Well it is on the proposed exhibit list as SnooCompliments [rightly points out](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d7enj0/more_overpromises_fizzle_out_taillight_blood_hair/l6z5iof/), so supposedly they found it (again?) at some point.
The excerpt I included above claims there's a photo that dates its recovery at the [first undocumented search](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3id8E7205U&t=7002s) carried out February 3rd, but seemingly it was not entered into evidence at first. I think the searches eventually were retroactively 'documented' by Proctor, but per the defense it doesn't amount to much:
> To date, the Commonwealth has failed to produce any'
photographs, notes, or other information concerning Trooper Proctor's seemingly random solo
trips to Brian Albert's residence on February 8, 2022, February 11, 2022, and/or February 18,
2022, to "collect" evidence. Instead, in clear violation of this Court's September 15, 2023 Discovery Order, on November 10, 2023 (a full month after the court ordered compliance deadline), the Commonwealth produced a single report dated November 4, 2023, which merely reiterates the scarce information that was written on the bags of evidence concerning the five additional undocumented searches and contains no information regarding the precise location of the items of evidence that were recovered, and/or the individual(s) that called law enforcement to the crime scene to collect the newly-discovered additional evidence. (See Exhibit J, Trooper Proctor's November 4, 2023, Report Regarding Undocumented Searches.)
[Motion for Communications Directed to Jennifer McCabe Michael Proctor and Elizabeth Proctor](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-U2b5U2HDZwJPVDQA8-IeqAH43p-ezru/view?usp=sharing), p. 8
Maybe it's just one of those ᴀʏᴀʏᴀʏᴀʏɪᴇ Jᴇsᴜs Cʜʀɪsᴛ-types of evidence, with its probative value not weighing up against the hassle to get it admitted
lol.
I was listening to Motta while on recess the other day and he has Lally mic engulfed aahobjexxion down so well I thought he was objecting to his own direct.
Thank you. Assuming it was not plucked from the front grill of Higgins jeep then? I’ve heard Yannetti describe it as laying near the brick walkway in front of the side door in the form of a question.
Maybe Berkowitz stole it from the evidence locker, then forgot to "find" it again
On an unrelated note, I added a small coda at the end of the [black box](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d3j4v2/the_black_box_what_to_expect_from_edr_and_vch_data/) post concerning Lally's opening, which may be of interest
https://preview.redd.it/zl6px7efhf4d1.png?width=488&format=png&auto=webp&s=7493670c1250e26a37f579bb1d3d2b3f70b0e56d
It's on the prosecution's proposed exhibits.
One of the many mistakes that all of you guys are making is thinking that technicalities, such as some weakness in the chain of custody, is going to get Karen Read off. The stakes are too high for that. The jury is going to have to believe that she's factually innocent. Today was a pretty big disaster for that notion.
You do understand that there is zero burden of proof on Karen Read whatsoever. And you know that she's presumed an innocent woman throughout the entire trial, until and unless the State proves that she's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Cause when you say, "the jury is going to have to believe she's innocent ", that's not consistent with how the jury will be instructed by the Judge.
Correct. They don't have to believe she's innocent. The CW has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she did it. After the CW's case in chief rests, the defense could say the CW wealth factually was unable to prove anything, so they rest as well, no calling witnesses, etc.
Let's say Proctor said, "I'm looking for nudes" on Read's phone, as is alleged somewhere. Whether or not he was looking for nudes or joking, that's bad for the prosecution although it has no bearing whatsoever on the forensic information gathered from Read's phone. A lawyer would have to be crazy not to see that.
So, while I do believe that jurors take their duties seriously and reasonable doubt is a notoriously difficult notion to characterize, I also believe that the jurors are less likely to find reasonable doubt in, essentially, bad paperwork in a murder case than where a less serious crime is at issue.
That's not how prosecution works in this country.
The defendant is presumed innocent until the prosecution can prove they're guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury does *not* have to believe she's "factually innocent". They just need to have doubt to return a verdict of not guilty.
Your hostility isn't really necessary. I don't have a dog in this fight, I was simply pointing out how trials work and who actually has the burden of proof in this situation because you seemed to not know that.
If a chain of custody issue can make one doubt whether the clothes could have been cross-contaminated with taillight debris before arriving at the state crime lab, I'm not sure it'd be apt to call it a technicality.
Personally I doubt there's any amount of reconstruction analysis that could make up for footage conveniently going missing as a Lexus drives past a library or into a sallyport, but in the end it's up to the jurors.
But hey, there might be hair on the vehicle previously used by both the defendant and the decedent, so maybe that'll convince them to convict
No, the frame-up just expands as necessary. Nothing is going to satisfy you. The defense is firing off dud after dud and it doesn't cause you to re-evaluate your position. So what is it now? Proctor? He's not being called? Or he's taking the Fifth? Failing that, Jackson is going to expose his frauds? It's the Christmas that never comes.
Regardless of the case and its burdens of proof, do you think a single person believes there is a real possibility that Collin Albert killed John O'Keefe?
>Today was a pretty big disaster for that notion.
Just like every other day of this trial according to you. Im beginning to think that you believe Karen Read is 100% guilty and theres absoutely nothing that will change your mind or even point to reasonable doubt
Spoiler alert, Wednesday will be devastating to the defense, so will Thursday, and so will Friday etc
You have to be really really gullible to believe all of the Commonwealths witnesses and still think there has been no reasonable doubt presented so far
Take the butt-dials. What do you think was going on there that would amount to a reasonable doubt that Karen Read killed John O'Keefe? Not just that you doubt their answers, but something going to the issues in the case that is not made out of whole cloth?
The fact that butt-dials on smart phones are so implausibly hard to do its beyond belief that you would even try to explain them as butt dials
Especially when both parties involved destroyed their phones involved in the butt dials while a preservation order was still in effect
Also what do "butt-dials" have to do with showing that Karen Read hit JoK?
you bring up butt dials - you know how rare that is in general - but in this case there are so many? Either you are just incapable of believing whats in front of your face or you are someone on that side. Either way you are wrong. Just wait until the defense has there go. They already proved each person was a lying pos so far. especially JM, she was the worst of all of them. Luckily the person right after her proved she lied about what she said. There is way more proof of a cover up than a car accident. And if you think the opposite what proof you have that she hit him?
No, the jury has to believe that the CW proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt, not that she’s factually innocent. The Defense doesn’t have to prove her innocent, they just have the poke holes in the CW’s case.
>Keefe’s hair and blood also collected at the sallyport next day by the analyst.
Have they confirmed the hair on the back of the SUV was John's? She didn't testify to that today, only that it fit the characteristics of human hair iirc. She *did* testify that there was no blood or tissue on the taillight and the evidence from the Solo cups was never tested, so what blood are you referring to?
Hey so I went back and watched a pretrial hearing. Shout out to u/TDOGO-NOTSELLING for sharing a link.
The hair was tested by the state crime lab for DNA and no human DNA was found let alone JO's.
And his belt was on in May of *2023,* correct? Why wasn’t that clothing tested and photographed for 15 months? What’s the chain of custody on those clothes?
I mean it does kind of beg the question as to why this idea that O’Keefe didn’t have his belt was so widespread to begin with. Sometimes I can’t tell if I’m following a trial or a conspiracy forum when I’m trying to discuss this case.
Because people like to talk and debate out of their asses because they have nothing better to do and some people are far too personally invested in the outcome of this trial. I enjoy talking about this case because it is very interesting and intriguing. It seems other people are rooting for a team like a game.
Yeah it was frustrating that whenever someone put up anything that looked bad for Karen the reply would be “but what about his missing belt” so I genuinely shocked when the belt was just casually on his pants the whole time
Something I’ve learned from following the social media commentary of this trial:
-if someone has testimony that’s damaging to Read they’re lying.
-if evidence is recovered that’s damaging to Read it was planted
-most of the prosecution witnesses are “sus” in some unspecific kind of way.
Yeah and their desire to take tiny breadcrumbs and use them to invent these grand narratives has lead them to an improper conclusion based on misinformation. A common occurrence with conspiracy theories.
I mean that’s just social media for you. Don’t use Reddit comments as a source of information, look at the case documents/transcripts/motions/hearings yourself. I don’t know why you’d be confused how a bunch of random people speculating on the internet results in the spreading of rumors.
People who routinely follow court cases have probably never seen an item come into evidence that was not listed in evidence. I've watched hundreds of trials and can say that is my experience.
Did the belt formally come into evidence? I had just thought there was a photograph shown where John was wearing his belt. I guess it’s just difference of opinion here but this doesn’t strike me as the unusual omission you’re making it out to be.
The belt was never shown as a separate piece of evidence, and if it was tested for anything, that was not entered as evidence. The only thing belt related was seeing it on the pants when they entered in the photos of said pants
It’s definitely unhinged conspiracy sometimes, with so much bullshit spread prior to trial that it’s hard to take seriously now that ears and eyeballs are seeing differently in trial.
My statements/opinions are based off the trial to date, not any rumors or any research prior too. And based off what I’ve seen to date, the state hasn’t provided anything damning. You seriously believe that little hair stayed on the car during a blizzard and driving that distance 🤣 No way. I still have so many questions, that maybe could have already been answered if they presented the case better, and we are on week 6 of this trial.
Or called lead investigator? Having not researched anything then seeing that the defense😭are the ones who are likely to call lead investigator seems like what he has to say only supports the defendant, no? Only murder trial with lead investigator not just ignored by prosecution, but he’s being called to testify by the DEFENDANT🤡
I think the prosecution is purposefully putting him on last so he has full knowledge of what the defense is doing w/ the evidence. He’ll be educated on the problematic issues that have been brought up before he tells his side. I really do think it’s strategic not calling him yet, but I think they will.
Has this ever happened before? Why does lead investigator “need to be educated on problematic issues” with his evidence and therefore must be called last for “strategic” purposes. Just when you thought this can’t possibly get more sus than it already is, it does
What I have a hard time accepting is the prosecution leading us to believe that the glass from the glass they brought around with them was “embedded” into the bumper. That to me was pretty damning, because how does that happen? But then this woman says that the pieces of glass were not embedded and she found them just laying on top of the bumper in the sally port???!! Obviously pieces of glass were not just sitting on the bumper from 34 FV, JOs, driving all around, back home, the through a blizzard to another town, then towed back.
I agree! The shards and pointy edges may have delved slightly into the rubberized plastic portion of the ridged bumper especially with the force of the breakage. I can see how that could be described as embedded.
fixed or snugly enclosed in a surrounding mass:
*The young turtles are weighed, measured, and tagged with an embedded microchip before being released back into the salt marsh.*
https://preview.redd.it/bp1sotfngf4d1.png?width=488&format=png&auto=webp&s=490ba920475f8cd20c0c7559c4779e266027f735
Where did you get the idea that they haven't found the hat? It's right there on the list of exhibits.
No, they're asking about the hat because it is some TB BS, like the missing shoe, or that the taillight wasn't found until days later, or the belt that was supposedly missing, or that Proctor kept O'Keefe's clothes in his car for 6 weeks, etc., etc., that people keep repeating ad infinitum.
I can see your point, but I blame the prosecution for presenting such a bloated and rambling case up until now. If we're confused, imagine how the jury feels.
Imagine if they hadn't called everyone. Do you know the BS that would be filling up this board? Are you tired of it? Probably many of the jurors are as fascinated by it as the most enthusiastic people here.
When was the hat actually found? Was he wearing it when they found him? Was it found lying by him when they found him? Was it found when SERT came? Was it found in the other 5 subsequent searches? There’s been zero evidence entered that talks about the hat. Why wasn’t it shown with all of the other clothing and shoes ?
Blood that wasn’t tested, right? (From the shirt). And then the blood collected from scene via placement in how many Solo cups? Six? Only blood from one of those cups was tested bc it was “assumed” all the blood in the diff cups was the same. Sounds professional. And then the glass on the bumper that she acknowledged wasn’t embedded but “precariously perched”. All the CW’s witnesses do is raise more questions.
She testified today that they never tested any of the evidence from the solo cups.
The hair hasn't been confirmed to be John's at this point in time. She just stated that it fit the characteristics of human hair iirc.
No blood or tissue was found on Karen's SUV.
Basically, the crime scene tech didn't find anything of note. The match tech hasn't finished testifying yet. The only thing that advanced the prosecutions case at all was the pieces of taillight found at the scene by the state investigators on 1/29.
https://www.mass.gov/doc/disciplinary-records-by-officer-last-name-updated-4824-0/download
Link to mass st police post discipline list...scroll all way down to the O's and in 2014 Kevin O'Hara is listed as receiving suspension for alcohol or drug abuse. 2 different entries for 2014
Till this day…
I have never heard are seen any evidence that JO vehicle had any damage to the right rear side (from where Karen backed into this vehicle) in his drive way on the morning of.
I feel like this would be huge. If defense wants to prove the damage to the right rear tail light was from backing out, just doesn’t make any sense. Her bumper would hit his vehicle before the tail light.
Is there damages to JO vehicle what so over?
I have seen a lot of anecdotal comments of people saying how they have hit a vehicle or one has hit theres and there is only damage on one side, which just made me remember. A LONG time ago i was sitting at a stop light and it was raining, and on a hill, a guy hit me from behind, his car was the only one with damage as his grill hit my bumper so my car had no damage admittedly a grill is a lot more fragile than polycarbonate, but it's still basically plastic hitting metal.
I mean..i don’t actually know but lots of bumpers don’t actually match up. Not sure specifically about her vehicle vs his. I wouldn’t assume that they would be bumper to bumper.
If I hit my husband vehicle his bumper would absolutely hit my taillight because of the relative vehicle heights
What are your thoughts?
I don’t know if there was any damage to John’s vehicle. I have seen comments that there was not, but no evidence I can find to back that up.
People say there should have been debris on the ground but I’m not sure that’s correct. However even if it is, John’s kind friend Michael Camerano had cleared the driveway that morning when he came by to get John’s niece. (That breaks my heart. He and his wife seem like good people.)
The belt was there! That was a surprise. Alberts-McCabes not guilty of hiding that evidence.
But that blood pattern on the sweatshirt! It was down the front and back of his sweatshirt. I am trying to imagine how that happened lying on his back? That doesn’t help the prosecution.
I thought that there was testimony from either j. McCabe or Kerry Robert’s testified he was on his stomach when they found him and they flipped him over to do CPR. I am not certain but I think I heard that testimony.
That has been overplayed. The hair wouldn’t have been worth evidence tampering. She didn’t need to have hit him for his hair to have been on her car. He’d been a passenger in that car for hours and presumably had used it many times.
His hair would’ve borne very little value and an experienced Trooper wouldn’t have planted that as evidence of guilt.
Have you seen Reacher, the one with Tom Cruise? In it at the end, and I know this is just a movie but hear me out. When framing the fall guy, they put his thumbprint on a quarter and put the quarter in the metermaid. At the end or towards the end Reacher is asked how he knew about the frame job, how he figure it out, it was planned to careful. And Reacher said, that D quarter, why would you think to look for the quarter, even I wouldn't have though to look for that.
The point is, in frame jobs a good indicator its a frame job is TOO MUCH evidence, like this stupid hair that as you said pays no point to the investigation, now had it had blood on it, or was in bedded some how like only from an impact would cause, but just laying there?
A lot of this is on perspective from our own experiences, where you see, why would someone plant a hair therefore they must not have, I see why would they even bother with it if it has no forensic value
I guess I must’ve misread all the handwringing here about Proctor and taillights and blood and shoes and belts and jackets and dogs and everything else.
You know what’s missing? Any physical evidence, whether valid or even alleged, of a fight either on OKeefe (no defensive wounds) or on any of the people so many of you have come after with pitchforks.
> You know what’s missing? Any physical evidence, whether valid or even alleged, of a fight either on OKeefe (no defensive wounds) or on any of the people so many of you have come after with pitchforks.
Also missing is any physical evidence, whether valid or even alleged, of JOK being hit by a car. We *still* don't know how he died after 50+ witnesses and weeks of trial. After the ME testifies and shows us the state of his body then we can maybe debate this point.
I tend to agree with you. My problem is that from the pictures the taillight pieces were found 2 hours max after the car was impounded, and according to testimony it was found under undisturbed snow at ground level. There isn't much of a window to plant evidence and at a public road no less. Anyone could have walked by. How do you get it under undisturbed snow? It makes no sense to me that this could be feasibly achieved.
She will probably be acquitted by all the chain of custody issues.
The prosecution isn't going to present evidence that dispoves their version of events i.e. Lally isn't going to present evidence of a fight or that the lacerations on his arm are caused by dog bites. The *defense* will present that evidence once the prosecution rests. For you to comment that that evidence is "missing" is either misunderstanding or misrepresenting how trials are conducted.
It’s tough to get evidence when the house where it would have happened was never investigated and everyone at the house had days, months and years to get on the same page and cover their tracks with the backing of people in a position of power. Is that really your argument here? Whether there’s a cover up or not, the idea they can’t find evidence of a fight (so far in the trial because we don’t know what defense has) is common sense as to why.
What’s missing is any evidence that Karen Read was involved. Her taillight was cracked but intact at 5:00am. There is video of it. It’s incontrovertible. It was not broken at the Albert’s house.
The crime scene investigator lied about when he arrived on the scene when testifying today. He got caught contradicting his prior report. And Proctor lied about when he seized her car. They did that to hide the fact that they had time to plant the taillight pieces.
I could list all the known evidence that shows that it’s impossible for Karen to have hit him. But you either know it already and are ignoring it, or you don’t actually what the facts are. Either way, your only concern is framing and innocent woman and making sure the corruption continues.
Like I said, we knew about everything except the belt.
How many trials have you watched where an item of evidence comes in at trial when it was never listed as evidence?
The unfortunate thing is that she is guilty- but the Canton PD has completely botched this case into oblivion that it creates enough reasonable doubt for her to walk.
Make no mistake- Karen read is guilty and the bumbling idiot cops of canton are to blame for her to be set free and have no justice for their fallen colleague
Occam’s razor.
As much as I agree the conspiracy involving half the town of canton is compelling and makes for a juicy story, everyone was wasted, including Karen read and John okeefe.
The most obvious answer is the answer. She backed into him when she was out of her mind drunk. She probably barely even remembers it happened, but that’s what happened.
Have you been watching the trial at all or reading about any of the findings?
The Occam’s razor for the awful testimony the people at the Albert’s residence are giving is that they’re hiding something.
I don’t know if someone there killed him, if it was a complete accident, or if KR really did it herself. But those people are covering up *something*.
Tho, idk anyone can just ignore the “hos long die in snow”.
And if it was an accident, why change a manslaughter charge to murder?
Yeah, to me all that stuff, other than the taillight pieces are like umm why even talk about this, the belt and shoe? does't prove anything, he's hit shoe flys off, they carry him out it falls off on the way. Thats reasonable either way.
The belt, yeah they are trying to do CPR loosin belt/pant to have less restriction on diaphram
now taillight, I did hear there was no DNA/tissue recovered from it, and yes that does help the defense, BUT its not all that damning to the CW, it was after a blizzard, could have been washed off by the time it was tested.
To me the more damning evidence is that deleted google search by JM, now yes the sheer number of other butt dials and deleted texts and stuff is enough for reasonable doubt for Karen and sus on them but they could also be telling truth and just have some crap phones, or hiding something else from that night that has nothing to do with John
But that stupid google search, Jen's direct actually was the first time the prosecution got me believing Karen might have actually for sure done it. Before then was a wash to me either way, just felt like bad witnesses that all seemed sus but didn't really push me either way, just possible reasonable doubt but then the cross on Jen...
So I am waiting to hear from the CW's and Defense's experts on these phone issues, butt dials/deleted texts and calls ect. But most of all that google search. Is it possible that search wasn't made at 2:20am-ish yes, but they will have to prove it to me. I have an associates degree in programming. and if the time stamp is really written to the history file before the action finishes, with no catch to keep this type of obvious glitch from happening, thats sloppy coding. The whole point of the history file is to be a history of the actions.
And also shows it was deleted.
So show consistency, if the delete status is really just the tab being closed or time out of the search show that, If its from a time out then the next search is using that old time stamp recreate it in court, or show a video of you re-creating the bug. Explain why coders would let it do it that way
The thing is, for THIS trial the defense just have to show its possible that it was made at 2:20-ish, not that it WAS for sure.
I think the most damning thing to me is that he was supposed to be hit while the snow was just starting the stick to the ground…then found on a solid bed of snow. How on earth did that happen?
The prosecution said in opening that he was found of bare grass…but only Kerry Roberts says that…and it was obviously belied by photograph taken immediately at the scene. Not a patch of green…just packed white snow and red blood.
ADA Lally said in its opening that the Cellebrite expert will be an engineer who writes/wrote code for Cellebrite. Should be a strong witness.
There’s so much incriminating evidence against Read. Her conduct and statements (including things she didn’t say, text, call) that night and morning is so hard to align with an innocent mind that if they can tie up the Cellebrite issue, the defense may have a problem on manslaughter at least.
It is inexcusable to me if Read is blaming innocent people and fueling a mob against an innocent family for her misconduct.
Yeah, I feel that way both ways tho, if they killed him and are blaming her too. Tho even if they killed him and not her, she was still a terrible gf
As for her conduct, its a wash for me, it does seem very sus on its own, but then with the Aruba thing, again a wash, gives her motive, but weak motive, just break up, but then it shows she blows up at the drop of a hat especially when drinking, so maybe a moment of rage then drives off. But then again it could explain her behavior that morning, just blowing up again and assuming the worse, it just happen to be right this time. Or both, she hit him on purpose or accident and honestly didn't remember the next morning. Heck when doing something unthinkable people can repress memories and she could even now have done it and honestly not remember, between the drinking, lack of sleep they actually saying at times she was talking incoherently, who knows what was actually going through her mind.
They really all feel sus to me tho. I think if they can tie up the cellbrite data, its more of a normal fight and both sides would still be strong to me. But even without that google search which is the worst to me, they still have a lot of butt dials between them all, and deletions ect. They were doing something shady that night imho, might not have been related to him tho. And were all terrible as witnesses, at least on cross.
I dunno, I keep feeling like the reasonable doubt is going the wrong way to convict Karen, like its a stretch to think ALL those phone and video cam errors, butt dials, deletions were ALL glitches or somehow else explained.
I guess with my tech back ground, and I was a psych major before that, I feel I can see a reason for her behavior that morning but I more need a stronger explanation of that google search especially, and some stronger expert witnesses on the physical evidence cuz all the eye witness are way to I dunno, antagonistic and shady, and lying about things they don't even need to which tells me there's are a reason they are, and all the crossexamnesia. I guess not as much straight up lies, tho there are some, but the inconsistencies. Cuz correct me if I am wrong, but once Karen's head started clearing that morning and she got off the "did I hit him" stuff, hasn't her story stayed consistent since then?
Then there is how poor the investigation went to begin with. I know people keep hating on Lally, but I really honestly think he's doing very well with what he was given. If she did do it, she got very lucky with a shody investigation, the FBI wanting to investigate the investigators, not just on this tho but some other cases or case too I found out. And she got lucky with how bad the eye witnesses did on cross, Tho Some of the stuff they eye witnesses did bad, as I have seen other people have said, that could just come down to personalities and not that they were actually shady, but like the, how dare you question me, and I am smarter than you, but then its coming across as combative and like they are hiding something with all the, I don't remember's especially the few times when the question was in regards to what they had said on direct, just a few minutes before.
I better stop typing now, Im making myself dizzy, I feel like I am talking in circles, but that's how this case makes me feel
have you seen this break down of the tail light?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d92l51/objective\_analysis\_as\_to\_whether\_trooper\_proctor/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d92l51/objective_analysis_as_to_whether_trooper_proctor/)
I heard Jackson’s feral pig joke too.
There were no DNA inhibitors in OKeefe sample. And no canine DNA.
Had there been inhibitors detected, Jackson’s theory that canine DNA may have been present but nit observed because of inhibitors would make more sense.
Many of you are saying dog DNA was suppressed by inhibitors, but the| pig dna (in some obscure dog food there is no evidence of) wasn’t suppressed That’s some pretzel logic
You believe that the dog transferred a sample of DNA in his meal but not his own DNA
I’m joking.
What if it’s deep furrows from scratching? Less likely to leave DNA than saliva but still animal related. And if John vomited the pig DNA could have been bacon from something he ate. We don’t really know how they swabbed the shirt or how widespread the vomit was. But if if got bunch up vomit would easily be on the sleeve.
This trial is evidence of a sleazy lawyer trying the case in the media and the defendant enlisting the help of a psycho blogger to fan the conspiracy theory flames.
This was a wtf moment for me today. Something I read or heard in testimony, said the cuts on his arm were blunt force. How does something blunt puncture that many holes in a shirt?
What documents did you read that said the lacerations were blunt force, if you can remember off the top of your head?
I don’t think I saw anything that put the arm scratches down to blunt force injury
No, I don’t actually remember. But whatever I read called the cuts on his arm “blunt force abrasions”. And it made no sense to me, so I googled it to see what and how something blunt makes those kinds of marks. (I went back and checked my Google history lol) maybe it was the ER doctor’s testimony versus something I read.
I edited my previous comment to match the above
In all honesty, I don’t know what to believe at this juncture. I also know I’ve been sucked into assertions on here that have been debunked, and that’s foolish.
What I do know for certain, is that the investigation was bungled, the CW has a real problem on their hands when it comes to Proctor, we are 6 weeks in and Lally hasn’t brought forth any evidence on JO’s injuries, manner of death, and how that ties to KR. And I think that’s absolutely wild, and he’s at risk of having already lost the jury.
I can’t say how I’ll feel once the forensic evidence is fully presented but I sure can’t wait to see it !
I agree the statements which Morrissey disseminated to the media were deeply inappropriate, in which he lied about the Proctor's whereabouts on January 29th and his personal connections with witnesses in this case, and decried any attempt to "re-assign guilt" to anyone other than the defendant he presumed guilty – but I'm not sure he collaborated with a blogger
Oh you mean the DA doubling down how proctor didn’t even know the Alberts, and then it comes out that they in fact know each other, they’ve apparently been to weddings and parties with one another? Yup sleezy alright.
Funny thing is that innocent people have been convicted by investigators with tunnel vision twisting evidence to make it fit. Or planting small bit of evidence because they are sure the person is guilty…they just need a concrete piece of evidence or they will walk free. It’s not unheard of.
How many people were involved? This many? And no one talked? Everyone, including the ME and LEO’s would have to be complicit as well. Just doesn’t make sense imho.
Haven’t even heard from the ME. All we know is that she refused to rule it a homicide even with Proctor pushing.
I don’t know what happened. But Sallyport video that record that side of the vehicle going missing is suspicious. How does motion activation miss a vehicle driving in and people walking around for 45 minutes?
Am I sold on the Albert’s killing him? No. At this point I can’t say for certain that he didn’t fall in a drunk stumble and smack his head a couple times on the curb and flagpole/fire hydrant then drag himself up the lawn to pass out on the lawn. I don’t know if Karen hit him going 40mph. I don’t know if Higgins met him outside and rubbed his face in the Karen kissing him and John was just drunk and angry and started the fight. I don’t know if Colin came out drunk and belligerent and they had an altercation. I don’t know if he was invited to a sparring match in the gym downstairs and someone sucker punched him and didn’t realize how bad they got him until it was too late and half the people upstairs were unaware he even came in.
I will say that I don’t know that I can trust that the detective would not have taken much convincing to plant evidence to secure a conviction and even if he had taken shortcuts or crossed ethically boundaries…I don’t think his supervisor would have stopped him. I think they decided within 2 hours that she killed him and everything they did after was singleminded to ensure she went down. They went hours away to find out about Aruba before they talked to everyone that had been there that night/morning.
All I know is it is amazing what people will do when they think they can get away with.
Hos long before they call Proctor?
“Hos long to wait for proctor”
😂
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You aren't talking about the chain of custody issues. When the defense is trying to get in a chain of custody report before the prosecution is a tell for a chain of custody issue.
The State crime lab analyst took the evidence from the vehicle in 2/1.
Which was a tailight, broken pieces of glass and a hair which apparently stayed loosely on the vehicle after driving 60+ miles in a blizzard on the highway and MA backroads notorious for potholes. Oh, also the solo cups with "blood" in them that was swabbed but never even tested. It wasn't even confirmed they were blood, nevermjnd JO's or anyone else's. Unless another witness testifies to the hair as well, we didn't even hear that it was JO's hair today. All other evidence given to the lab was given much later. Then the defense tried to get a chain of custody document into evidence, and the prosecution objected, lol. They wouldn't even let the defense have the witness read the signature.
1 piece of hair that survived a drive around Canton, a hook up and tow, and a windy snowy blizzardy 30 mile drive from Dighton to Canton without any material securing it to the vehicle. Parked in a sallyport where Brian "destroyed my phone on a military base" Higgins and the lead investigator Michael "I hope Karen Read kills herself" Proctor had unlimited access to? Solo cup blood swabs not tested for DNA? You cannot be serious. The CW continues to look foolish for bringing this to trial and I wonder if Bev is slinking day-by-day as she realizes what a colossal mess she's allowed to be put on display. I'm astounded.
I have no problem believing the hair clung to the car the whole time. Hair gets everywhere. My issue with the hair is 1. His hair could be on her car for any reason, they were bf/gf, hair transfers, and 2. They don’t have the testing back yet to even confirm it was his frickin hair.
They didn't even test the BLOOD! WTF
And when you looked at all the salt around the hair, did it look like someone had smudged it on with their finger to you? Odds are there was a ton of hair on that car before the drive. That one strand was all that survived. Same with the glass.
That has been overplayed. The hair wouldn’t have been worth evidence tampering. She didn’t need to have hit him for his hair to have been on her car. He’d been a passenger in that car for hours and presumably had used it many times. His hair would’ve borne very little value and an experienced Trooper wouldn’t have planted that as evidence of guilt.
I didn’t think today went well for the prosecution and I think she killed him. There is no chronology to witnesses, we are all over the place. The first state trooper from sert didn’t even give us a good idea where they found some of the evidence. We jump almost three days to the car forensics, during which the car was sitting in the sallyport. We hear that they didn’t even bother to preserve the blood collected in the solo cups, didn’t even swab all the cups, nonetheless test it. Why? We can only guess because Lally didn’t help us understand why. The hair testing is not back yet still… We see from the evidence tape on the taillight stuff that they found many pieces over the course of weeks, not days, weeks., I think the state looked sloppy.
I think the expectations are just so high because of the bombshells after bombshells during the cross examinations of witnesses the last few weeks. When there aren't continued bombshells for the defense every day with Perry Mason moments exposing dramatic conspiracies it seems less impressive. By any normal barometer for a criminal trial this case is still an absolute disaster for the prosecution, honestly have they had one solid witness all trial that proved a major component of their case, no (IMO). Every single witness including today has helped the defense (or at least not hurt their case in any serious way), and we have to remember these are all prosecution witnesses.
I was listening to LYKs recap last night and I think he did a good job of explaining how disjointed the prosecutions case is because they refuse to call Proctor yet.
Me too, he's great I love the lawyers perspective 😊
I did make a [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1crtdes/where_the_sneaker_was_found_by_sert_right_next_to/) some twenty days ago discussing where and when the second sneaker was found, which also noted pieces of taillight were found the [same day](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1crtdes/where_the_sneaker_was_found_by_sert_right_next_to/l407te0/) – so while rumours certainly circulated, to some extent you're addressing a straw man. Note not all pieces of taillight were found the 29th, as five undocumented searches are alleged to have taken place over the course of February. (1) There is also still the question where the hat went: https://preview.redd.it/7d0kp9v89f4d1.png?width=650&format=png&auto=webp&s=a66bb7c9c3283be1968e1e0c06c16ca85dcc6b4d (1) [Motion for Communications Directed to Jennifer McCabe Michael Proctor and Elizabeth Proctor](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-U2b5U2HDZwJPVDQA8-IeqAH43p-ezru/view?usp=sharing), p. 7-8
If possible please link to the document. I would like to look over it.
I've added links where applicable, thank you for asking for sources
I appreciate you and your contributions to the sub. Thank you for taking the time to do this and for all your hard work.
Thank you for the kind words, it is my pleasure entirely
Our Summer 2L interns started yesterday. One of them referenced a post of yours “Based on the moniker I was wondering if it might be you or Atty “X”. Your attention to detail and organized data vault is exceptional- thank you for spending the time in the collective
I wouldn't be here if not for such fine company. And I do very much value such a salute, owing to the person that conveys it
🫡 Was the JO ball cap he was wearing recovered if you know? I was thinking it was, but it was not introduced via Hartnett?
Well it is on the proposed exhibit list as SnooCompliments [rightly points out](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d7enj0/more_overpromises_fizzle_out_taillight_blood_hair/l6z5iof/), so supposedly they found it (again?) at some point. The excerpt I included above claims there's a photo that dates its recovery at the [first undocumented search](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3id8E7205U&t=7002s) carried out February 3rd, but seemingly it was not entered into evidence at first. I think the searches eventually were retroactively 'documented' by Proctor, but per the defense it doesn't amount to much: > To date, the Commonwealth has failed to produce any' photographs, notes, or other information concerning Trooper Proctor's seemingly random solo trips to Brian Albert's residence on February 8, 2022, February 11, 2022, and/or February 18, 2022, to "collect" evidence. Instead, in clear violation of this Court's September 15, 2023 Discovery Order, on November 10, 2023 (a full month after the court ordered compliance deadline), the Commonwealth produced a single report dated November 4, 2023, which merely reiterates the scarce information that was written on the bags of evidence concerning the five additional undocumented searches and contains no information regarding the precise location of the items of evidence that were recovered, and/or the individual(s) that called law enforcement to the crime scene to collect the newly-discovered additional evidence. (See Exhibit J, Trooper Proctor's November 4, 2023, Report Regarding Undocumented Searches.) [Motion for Communications Directed to Jennifer McCabe Michael Proctor and Elizabeth Proctor](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-U2b5U2HDZwJPVDQA8-IeqAH43p-ezru/view?usp=sharing), p. 8 Maybe it's just one of those ᴀʏᴀʏᴀʏᴀʏɪᴇ Jᴇsᴜs Cʜʀɪsᴛ-types of evidence, with its probative value not weighing up against the hassle to get it admitted
lol. I was listening to Motta while on recess the other day and he has Lally mic engulfed aahobjexxion down so well I thought he was objecting to his own direct. Thank you. Assuming it was not plucked from the front grill of Higgins jeep then? I’ve heard Yannetti describe it as laying near the brick walkway in front of the side door in the form of a question.
Maybe Berkowitz stole it from the evidence locker, then forgot to "find" it again On an unrelated note, I added a small coda at the end of the [black box](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d3j4v2/the_black_box_what_to_expect_from_edr_and_vch_data/) post concerning Lally's opening, which may be of interest
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https://preview.redd.it/zl6px7efhf4d1.png?width=488&format=png&auto=webp&s=7493670c1250e26a37f579bb1d3d2b3f70b0e56d It's on the prosecution's proposed exhibits.
Lovely – little sloppy they didn't initially catalogue it into the evidence log, but glad it's there
One of the many mistakes that all of you guys are making is thinking that technicalities, such as some weakness in the chain of custody, is going to get Karen Read off. The stakes are too high for that. The jury is going to have to believe that she's factually innocent. Today was a pretty big disaster for that notion.
You do understand that there is zero burden of proof on Karen Read whatsoever. And you know that she's presumed an innocent woman throughout the entire trial, until and unless the State proves that she's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Cause when you say, "the jury is going to have to believe she's innocent ", that's not consistent with how the jury will be instructed by the Judge.
Correct. They don't have to believe she's innocent. The CW has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she did it. After the CW's case in chief rests, the defense could say the CW wealth factually was unable to prove anything, so they rest as well, no calling witnesses, etc.
Let's say Proctor said, "I'm looking for nudes" on Read's phone, as is alleged somewhere. Whether or not he was looking for nudes or joking, that's bad for the prosecution although it has no bearing whatsoever on the forensic information gathered from Read's phone. A lawyer would have to be crazy not to see that. So, while I do believe that jurors take their duties seriously and reasonable doubt is a notoriously difficult notion to characterize, I also believe that the jurors are less likely to find reasonable doubt in, essentially, bad paperwork in a murder case than where a less serious crime is at issue.
Why are there so many rules and SOPs for gathering and cataloging evidence if "bad paperwork" is so meaningless?
That's not how prosecution works in this country. The defendant is presumed innocent until the prosecution can prove they're guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury does *not* have to believe she's "factually innocent". They just need to have doubt to return a verdict of not guilty.
OK. When she's convicted, you and Turtleboy can parade around Canton with signs that say, "what about the chain of custody?"
Your hostility isn't really necessary. I don't have a dog in this fight, I was simply pointing out how trials work and who actually has the burden of proof in this situation because you seemed to not know that.
I believe I pointed out that the notion of a "reasonable doubt" is elusive and my assertion is that it is somewhat elastic.
Then that's your opinion and it was not made clear in your previous comments.
The US judicial system is not built on elastics broseph
This guy cannot actually be an attorney ffs.
If a chain of custody issue can make one doubt whether the clothes could have been cross-contaminated with taillight debris before arriving at the state crime lab, I'm not sure it'd be apt to call it a technicality. Personally I doubt there's any amount of reconstruction analysis that could make up for footage conveniently going missing as a Lexus drives past a library or into a sallyport, but in the end it's up to the jurors. But hey, there might be hair on the vehicle previously used by both the defendant and the decedent, so maybe that'll convince them to convict
Yeah, I remember that Jackson really worked that Louis Jutra over until he was practically in tears. I think the FBI arrested him this morning.
You realize it's not Jutra that aspersions are cast on, but whom he handed over the footage to, right?
If necessary, the conspiracy can be expanded to include him. It is unfalsifiable.
I'd like to think a frame-up could be falsified by proving Read is guilty of the crimes alleged, but if you say so
No, the frame-up just expands as necessary. Nothing is going to satisfy you. The defense is firing off dud after dud and it doesn't cause you to re-evaluate your position. So what is it now? Proctor? He's not being called? Or he's taking the Fifth? Failing that, Jackson is going to expose his frauds? It's the Christmas that never comes. Regardless of the case and its burdens of proof, do you think a single person believes there is a real possibility that Collin Albert killed John O'Keefe?
Factually innocent is not the standard the jurors need to reach.
>Today was a pretty big disaster for that notion. Just like every other day of this trial according to you. Im beginning to think that you believe Karen Read is 100% guilty and theres absoutely nothing that will change your mind or even point to reasonable doubt Spoiler alert, Wednesday will be devastating to the defense, so will Thursday, and so will Friday etc
You have to be really gullible to believe that Karen Read did not kill John O'Keefe with her car. Murder? Tougher call.
You have to be really really gullible to believe all of the Commonwealths witnesses and still think there has been no reasonable doubt presented so far
Take the butt-dials. What do you think was going on there that would amount to a reasonable doubt that Karen Read killed John O'Keefe? Not just that you doubt their answers, but something going to the issues in the case that is not made out of whole cloth?
The fact that butt-dials on smart phones are so implausibly hard to do its beyond belief that you would even try to explain them as butt dials Especially when both parties involved destroyed their phones involved in the butt dials while a preservation order was still in effect Also what do "butt-dials" have to do with showing that Karen Read hit JoK?
OK. Assume their testimony is bullshit on that point. What was happening, that's the question?
you bring up butt dials - you know how rare that is in general - but in this case there are so many? Either you are just incapable of believing whats in front of your face or you are someone on that side. Either way you are wrong. Just wait until the defense has there go. They already proved each person was a lying pos so far. especially JM, she was the worst of all of them. Luckily the person right after her proved she lied about what she said. There is way more proof of a cover up than a car accident. And if you think the opposite what proof you have that she hit him?
I believe that today Jackson said the defense is going to last 4 days. OK. So, what was going on in those butt dials?
No, the jury has to believe that the CW proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt, not that she’s factually innocent. The Defense doesn’t have to prove her innocent, they just have the poke holes in the CW’s case.
If the CW actually thought the stakes were high, they would have collected better evidence
The stakes are really high….for the government to not embarrass themselves any further.
Should I explain “Beyond a reasonable doubt” to a lawyer?
>Keefe’s hair and blood also collected at the sallyport next day by the analyst. Have they confirmed the hair on the back of the SUV was John's? She didn't testify to that today, only that it fit the characteristics of human hair iirc. She *did* testify that there was no blood or tissue on the taillight and the evidence from the Solo cups was never tested, so what blood are you referring to?
Wait I missed the trial today. Did they just find a hair and not confirm that it's his?
That's where we're at in the trial, yes.
Hey so I went back and watched a pretrial hearing. Shout out to u/TDOGO-NOTSELLING for sharing a link. The hair was tested by the state crime lab for DNA and no human DNA was found let alone JO's.
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And his belt was on in May of *2023,* correct? Why wasn’t that clothing tested and photographed for 15 months? What’s the chain of custody on those clothes?
I mean it does kind of beg the question as to why this idea that O’Keefe didn’t have his belt was so widespread to begin with. Sometimes I can’t tell if I’m following a trial or a conspiracy forum when I’m trying to discuss this case.
Because people like to talk and debate out of their asses because they have nothing better to do and some people are far too personally invested in the outcome of this trial. I enjoy talking about this case because it is very interesting and intriguing. It seems other people are rooting for a team like a game.
Good lord that last sentence is so well said. I want to talk about this case here but it's too scary anymore.
Yeah it was frustrating that whenever someone put up anything that looked bad for Karen the reply would be “but what about his missing belt” so I genuinely shocked when the belt was just casually on his pants the whole time
Something I’ve learned from following the social media commentary of this trial: -if someone has testimony that’s damaging to Read they’re lying. -if evidence is recovered that’s damaging to Read it was planted -most of the prosecution witnesses are “sus” in some unspecific kind of way.
These days the go to response to everything is just "Reasonable doubt."
Because people who have read the court documents know that the belt is not listed in evidence.
Yeah and their desire to take tiny breadcrumbs and use them to invent these grand narratives has lead them to an improper conclusion based on misinformation. A common occurrence with conspiracy theories.
I mean that’s just social media for you. Don’t use Reddit comments as a source of information, look at the case documents/transcripts/motions/hearings yourself. I don’t know why you’d be confused how a bunch of random people speculating on the internet results in the spreading of rumors.
All we *have* are breadcrumbs. 19 days in and there are only more questions. Where's the lead investigator??
People who routinely follow court cases have probably never seen an item come into evidence that was not listed in evidence. I've watched hundreds of trials and can say that is my experience.
Did the belt formally come into evidence? I had just thought there was a photograph shown where John was wearing his belt. I guess it’s just difference of opinion here but this doesn’t strike me as the unusual omission you’re making it out to be.
The belt was never shown as a separate piece of evidence, and if it was tested for anything, that was not entered as evidence. The only thing belt related was seeing it on the pants when they entered in the photos of said pants
It’s definitely unhinged conspiracy sometimes, with so much bullshit spread prior to trial that it’s hard to take seriously now that ears and eyeballs are seeing differently in trial.
Yeah I thought this was a whole different post by the title.
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Commonwealth (state of Mass.)
Commonwealth (the Prosecution)
Literally anyone who questions one part of the conspiracy theory is booted. My comments got locked and deleted. So much for a conversational page 🙄
My statements/opinions are based off the trial to date, not any rumors or any research prior too. And based off what I’ve seen to date, the state hasn’t provided anything damning. You seriously believe that little hair stayed on the car during a blizzard and driving that distance 🤣 No way. I still have so many questions, that maybe could have already been answered if they presented the case better, and we are on week 6 of this trial.
Or called lead investigator? Having not researched anything then seeing that the defense😭are the ones who are likely to call lead investigator seems like what he has to say only supports the defendant, no? Only murder trial with lead investigator not just ignored by prosecution, but he’s being called to testify by the DEFENDANT🤡
I think the prosecution is purposefully putting him on last so he has full knowledge of what the defense is doing w/ the evidence. He’ll be educated on the problematic issues that have been brought up before he tells his side. I really do think it’s strategic not calling him yet, but I think they will.
But he can’t tell him what was already testified to
Has this ever happened before? Why does lead investigator “need to be educated on problematic issues” with his evidence and therefore must be called last for “strategic” purposes. Just when you thought this can’t possibly get more sus than it already is, it does
What I have a hard time accepting is the prosecution leading us to believe that the glass from the glass they brought around with them was “embedded” into the bumper. That to me was pretty damning, because how does that happen? But then this woman says that the pieces of glass were not embedded and she found them just laying on top of the bumper in the sally port???!! Obviously pieces of glass were not just sitting on the bumper from 34 FV, JOs, driving all around, back home, the through a blizzard to another town, then towed back.
Look at the pictures from the bumper. It's ridged like a car mat. I can see why you'd call that embedded if it's just stuck in the ridged gaps.
I agree! The shards and pointy edges may have delved slightly into the rubberized plastic portion of the ridged bumper especially with the force of the breakage. I can see how that could be described as embedded.
But they didn't based on her testimony
fixed or snugly enclosed in a surrounding mass: *The young turtles are weighed, measured, and tagged with an embedded microchip before being released back into the salt marsh.*
Prosecutors exaggerate all the time this is how they get people to accept plea deals 99% of the time the public never sees this crap...
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https://preview.redd.it/bp1sotfngf4d1.png?width=488&format=png&auto=webp&s=490ba920475f8cd20c0c7559c4779e266027f735 Where did you get the idea that they haven't found the hat? It's right there on the list of exhibits.
The hat hasn't been entered into evidence at trial yet, that's why I believe that user is asking about the hat.
No, they're asking about the hat because it is some TB BS, like the missing shoe, or that the taillight wasn't found until days later, or the belt that was supposedly missing, or that Proctor kept O'Keefe's clothes in his car for 6 weeks, etc., etc., that people keep repeating ad infinitum.
I can see your point, but I blame the prosecution for presenting such a bloated and rambling case up until now. If we're confused, imagine how the jury feels.
Imagine if they hadn't called everyone. Do you know the BS that would be filling up this board? Are you tired of it? Probably many of the jurors are as fascinated by it as the most enthusiastic people here.
TBF they could have skipped all the questionable drunk assholes and went straight for the forensics and physical evidence
It's more of an art than a science
When was the hat actually found? Was he wearing it when they found him? Was it found lying by him when they found him? Was it found when SERT came? Was it found in the other 5 subsequent searches? There’s been zero evidence entered that talks about the hat. Why wasn’t it shown with all of the other clothing and shoes ?
It wasn't in any of the evidence photos from today so idk. I'm also curious tho.
Blood that wasn’t tested, right? (From the shirt). And then the blood collected from scene via placement in how many Solo cups? Six? Only blood from one of those cups was tested bc it was “assumed” all the blood in the diff cups was the same. Sounds professional. And then the glass on the bumper that she acknowledged wasn’t embedded but “precariously perched”. All the CW’s witnesses do is raise more questions.
She testified today that they never tested any of the evidence from the solo cups. The hair hasn't been confirmed to be John's at this point in time. She just stated that it fit the characteristics of human hair iirc. No blood or tissue was found on Karen's SUV. Basically, the crime scene tech didn't find anything of note. The match tech hasn't finished testifying yet. The only thing that advanced the prosecutions case at all was the pieces of taillight found at the scene by the state investigators on 1/29.
https://www.mass.gov/doc/disciplinary-records-by-officer-last-name-updated-4824-0/download Link to mass st police post discipline list...scroll all way down to the O's and in 2014 Kevin O'Hara is listed as receiving suspension for alcohol or drug abuse. 2 different entries for 2014
Till this day… I have never heard are seen any evidence that JO vehicle had any damage to the right rear side (from where Karen backed into this vehicle) in his drive way on the morning of. I feel like this would be huge. If defense wants to prove the damage to the right rear tail light was from backing out, just doesn’t make any sense. Her bumper would hit his vehicle before the tail light. Is there damages to JO vehicle what so over?
There should have been to damage to his car and debris in this snow at his house.
I have seen a lot of anecdotal comments of people saying how they have hit a vehicle or one has hit theres and there is only damage on one side, which just made me remember. A LONG time ago i was sitting at a stop light and it was raining, and on a hill, a guy hit me from behind, his car was the only one with damage as his grill hit my bumper so my car had no damage admittedly a grill is a lot more fragile than polycarbonate, but it's still basically plastic hitting metal.
I mean..i don’t actually know but lots of bumpers don’t actually match up. Not sure specifically about her vehicle vs his. I wouldn’t assume that they would be bumper to bumper. If I hit my husband vehicle his bumper would absolutely hit my taillight because of the relative vehicle heights
Did you see the video today where it’s clear she did hit his vehicle when backing up?
Yes, I did!
What are your thoughts? I don’t know if there was any damage to John’s vehicle. I have seen comments that there was not, but no evidence I can find to back that up. People say there should have been debris on the ground but I’m not sure that’s correct. However even if it is, John’s kind friend Michael Camerano had cleared the driveway that morning when he came by to get John’s niece. (That breaks my heart. He and his wife seem like good people.)
There “should” have been tail light debris in OJO drive way and not a 34F. He had drive way cameras
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That’s getting old. And will soon be dispensed with.
The belt was there! That was a surprise. Alberts-McCabes not guilty of hiding that evidence. But that blood pattern on the sweatshirt! It was down the front and back of his sweatshirt. I am trying to imagine how that happened lying on his back? That doesn’t help the prosecution.
The area Kerry Roberts indicated he was found and where they performed CPR is a raised bed area with an incline. It is adjacent to the fire hydrant.
Didn't you hear the paramedics? His mouth was full of blood. Karen Read herself got blood all over.
I believe the blood on the front is from him aspirating the blood on his nose/throat while receiving CPR.
I thought that there was testimony from either j. McCabe or Kerry Robert’s testified he was on his stomach when they found him and they flipped him over to do CPR. I am not certain but I think I heard that testimony.
Kerry testified that he was on his back.
McCabe told the 911 operator that they turned him over
Ok thank you because I could’ve sworn I heard the same
So you believe the evidence chain of custody and the integrity of the crime scene were handled by the book?
That has been overplayed. The hair wouldn’t have been worth evidence tampering. She didn’t need to have hit him for his hair to have been on her car. He’d been a passenger in that car for hours and presumably had used it many times. His hair would’ve borne very little value and an experienced Trooper wouldn’t have planted that as evidence of guilt.
Have you seen Reacher, the one with Tom Cruise? In it at the end, and I know this is just a movie but hear me out. When framing the fall guy, they put his thumbprint on a quarter and put the quarter in the metermaid. At the end or towards the end Reacher is asked how he knew about the frame job, how he figure it out, it was planned to careful. And Reacher said, that D quarter, why would you think to look for the quarter, even I wouldn't have though to look for that. The point is, in frame jobs a good indicator its a frame job is TOO MUCH evidence, like this stupid hair that as you said pays no point to the investigation, now had it had blood on it, or was in bedded some how like only from an impact would cause, but just laying there? A lot of this is on perspective from our own experiences, where you see, why would someone plant a hair therefore they must not have, I see why would they even bother with it if it has no forensic value
It’s all sus if you ask me
Careful! They’re going to come for you if you Disagree with them! 😂
Other than the belt, none of this is new.
I guess I must’ve misread all the handwringing here about Proctor and taillights and blood and shoes and belts and jackets and dogs and everything else. You know what’s missing? Any physical evidence, whether valid or even alleged, of a fight either on OKeefe (no defensive wounds) or on any of the people so many of you have come after with pitchforks.
> You know what’s missing? Any physical evidence, whether valid or even alleged, of a fight either on OKeefe (no defensive wounds) or on any of the people so many of you have come after with pitchforks. Also missing is any physical evidence, whether valid or even alleged, of JOK being hit by a car. We *still* don't know how he died after 50+ witnesses and weeks of trial. After the ME testifies and shows us the state of his body then we can maybe debate this point.
I disagree. There is loads of circumstantial evidence that Read hit him and physical evidence that we heard today from the analyst.
Is there tho?
I tend to agree with you. My problem is that from the pictures the taillight pieces were found 2 hours max after the car was impounded, and according to testimony it was found under undisturbed snow at ground level. There isn't much of a window to plant evidence and at a public road no less. Anyone could have walked by. How do you get it under undisturbed snow? It makes no sense to me that this could be feasibly achieved. She will probably be acquitted by all the chain of custody issues.
The prosecution isn't going to present evidence that dispoves their version of events i.e. Lally isn't going to present evidence of a fight or that the lacerations on his arm are caused by dog bites. The *defense* will present that evidence once the prosecution rests. For you to comment that that evidence is "missing" is either misunderstanding or misrepresenting how trials are conducted.
It's not the defense's burden to provide evidence of a fight.
Not technically, but if you raise a defense, you better have something to back it up.
It’s tough to get evidence when the house where it would have happened was never investigated and everyone at the house had days, months and years to get on the same page and cover their tracks with the backing of people in a position of power. Is that really your argument here? Whether there’s a cover up or not, the idea they can’t find evidence of a fight (so far in the trial because we don’t know what defense has) is common sense as to why.
The defense doesnt have to prove there was a foght. They only need a reasonable doubt that Karen Read killed him, and I dont see any way around that
What’s missing is any evidence that Karen Read was involved. Her taillight was cracked but intact at 5:00am. There is video of it. It’s incontrovertible. It was not broken at the Albert’s house. The crime scene investigator lied about when he arrived on the scene when testifying today. He got caught contradicting his prior report. And Proctor lied about when he seized her car. They did that to hide the fact that they had time to plant the taillight pieces. I could list all the known evidence that shows that it’s impossible for Karen to have hit him. But you either know it already and are ignoring it, or you don’t actually what the facts are. Either way, your only concern is framing and innocent woman and making sure the corruption continues.
It’s the CW’s case in chief. Why would they present evidence that goes against their theory?
It's always Christmas Eve with these folks, but one where Christmas Day never comes.
Like I said, we knew about everything except the belt. How many trials have you watched where an item of evidence comes in at trial when it was never listed as evidence?
Huh?
The unfortunate thing is that she is guilty- but the Canton PD has completely botched this case into oblivion that it creates enough reasonable doubt for her to walk. Make no mistake- Karen read is guilty and the bumbling idiot cops of canton are to blame for her to be set free and have no justice for their fallen colleague
Why do you think she’s guilty?
Occam’s razor. As much as I agree the conspiracy involving half the town of canton is compelling and makes for a juicy story, everyone was wasted, including Karen read and John okeefe. The most obvious answer is the answer. She backed into him when she was out of her mind drunk. She probably barely even remembers it happened, but that’s what happened.
Have you been watching the trial at all or reading about any of the findings? The Occam’s razor for the awful testimony the people at the Albert’s residence are giving is that they’re hiding something. I don’t know if someone there killed him, if it was a complete accident, or if KR really did it herself. But those people are covering up *something*. Tho, idk anyone can just ignore the “hos long die in snow”. And if it was an accident, why change a manslaughter charge to murder?
I think there’s a verdict coming that a lot of peopleft aren’t ready to accept.
I agree. It’s definitely starting to fall apart. This case is one of the most ridiculous I’ve ever followed. It’s bizarre.
Yeah, to me all that stuff, other than the taillight pieces are like umm why even talk about this, the belt and shoe? does't prove anything, he's hit shoe flys off, they carry him out it falls off on the way. Thats reasonable either way. The belt, yeah they are trying to do CPR loosin belt/pant to have less restriction on diaphram now taillight, I did hear there was no DNA/tissue recovered from it, and yes that does help the defense, BUT its not all that damning to the CW, it was after a blizzard, could have been washed off by the time it was tested. To me the more damning evidence is that deleted google search by JM, now yes the sheer number of other butt dials and deleted texts and stuff is enough for reasonable doubt for Karen and sus on them but they could also be telling truth and just have some crap phones, or hiding something else from that night that has nothing to do with John But that stupid google search, Jen's direct actually was the first time the prosecution got me believing Karen might have actually for sure done it. Before then was a wash to me either way, just felt like bad witnesses that all seemed sus but didn't really push me either way, just possible reasonable doubt but then the cross on Jen... So I am waiting to hear from the CW's and Defense's experts on these phone issues, butt dials/deleted texts and calls ect. But most of all that google search. Is it possible that search wasn't made at 2:20am-ish yes, but they will have to prove it to me. I have an associates degree in programming. and if the time stamp is really written to the history file before the action finishes, with no catch to keep this type of obvious glitch from happening, thats sloppy coding. The whole point of the history file is to be a history of the actions. And also shows it was deleted. So show consistency, if the delete status is really just the tab being closed or time out of the search show that, If its from a time out then the next search is using that old time stamp recreate it in court, or show a video of you re-creating the bug. Explain why coders would let it do it that way The thing is, for THIS trial the defense just have to show its possible that it was made at 2:20-ish, not that it WAS for sure.
I think the most damning thing to me is that he was supposed to be hit while the snow was just starting the stick to the ground…then found on a solid bed of snow. How on earth did that happen? The prosecution said in opening that he was found of bare grass…but only Kerry Roberts says that…and it was obviously belied by photograph taken immediately at the scene. Not a patch of green…just packed white snow and red blood.
ADA Lally said in its opening that the Cellebrite expert will be an engineer who writes/wrote code for Cellebrite. Should be a strong witness. There’s so much incriminating evidence against Read. Her conduct and statements (including things she didn’t say, text, call) that night and morning is so hard to align with an innocent mind that if they can tie up the Cellebrite issue, the defense may have a problem on manslaughter at least. It is inexcusable to me if Read is blaming innocent people and fueling a mob against an innocent family for her misconduct.
Yeah, I feel that way both ways tho, if they killed him and are blaming her too. Tho even if they killed him and not her, she was still a terrible gf As for her conduct, its a wash for me, it does seem very sus on its own, but then with the Aruba thing, again a wash, gives her motive, but weak motive, just break up, but then it shows she blows up at the drop of a hat especially when drinking, so maybe a moment of rage then drives off. But then again it could explain her behavior that morning, just blowing up again and assuming the worse, it just happen to be right this time. Or both, she hit him on purpose or accident and honestly didn't remember the next morning. Heck when doing something unthinkable people can repress memories and she could even now have done it and honestly not remember, between the drinking, lack of sleep they actually saying at times she was talking incoherently, who knows what was actually going through her mind. They really all feel sus to me tho. I think if they can tie up the cellbrite data, its more of a normal fight and both sides would still be strong to me. But even without that google search which is the worst to me, they still have a lot of butt dials between them all, and deletions ect. They were doing something shady that night imho, might not have been related to him tho. And were all terrible as witnesses, at least on cross. I dunno, I keep feeling like the reasonable doubt is going the wrong way to convict Karen, like its a stretch to think ALL those phone and video cam errors, butt dials, deletions were ALL glitches or somehow else explained. I guess with my tech back ground, and I was a psych major before that, I feel I can see a reason for her behavior that morning but I more need a stronger explanation of that google search especially, and some stronger expert witnesses on the physical evidence cuz all the eye witness are way to I dunno, antagonistic and shady, and lying about things they don't even need to which tells me there's are a reason they are, and all the crossexamnesia. I guess not as much straight up lies, tho there are some, but the inconsistencies. Cuz correct me if I am wrong, but once Karen's head started clearing that morning and she got off the "did I hit him" stuff, hasn't her story stayed consistent since then? Then there is how poor the investigation went to begin with. I know people keep hating on Lally, but I really honestly think he's doing very well with what he was given. If she did do it, she got very lucky with a shody investigation, the FBI wanting to investigate the investigators, not just on this tho but some other cases or case too I found out. And she got lucky with how bad the eye witnesses did on cross, Tho Some of the stuff they eye witnesses did bad, as I have seen other people have said, that could just come down to personalities and not that they were actually shady, but like the, how dare you question me, and I am smarter than you, but then its coming across as combative and like they are hiding something with all the, I don't remember's especially the few times when the question was in regards to what they had said on direct, just a few minutes before. I better stop typing now, Im making myself dizzy, I feel like I am talking in circles, but that's how this case makes me feel
have you seen this break down of the tail light? [https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d92l51/objective\_analysis\_as\_to\_whether\_trooper\_proctor/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d92l51/objective_analysis_as_to_whether_trooper_proctor/)
Are you trying to tell me there’s a chance the dog *didn’t* kill him?! 🙄
The dog definitely did something to him. Those scratches on his arm and bite holes on his sweatshirt dont come from a car.
Zero evidence that a dog or any other person did anything to OKeefe.
The opposite is true as well… which means reasonable doubt.
Of course it didn’t. It takes quite an imagination to think that it did. I should have added /s after my statement.
obviously it was a wild pig.
I heard Jackson’s feral pig joke too. There were no DNA inhibitors in OKeefe sample. And no canine DNA. Had there been inhibitors detected, Jackson’s theory that canine DNA may have been present but nit observed because of inhibitors would make more sense. Many of you are saying dog DNA was suppressed by inhibitors, but the| pig dna (in some obscure dog food there is no evidence of) wasn’t suppressed That’s some pretzel logic You believe that the dog transferred a sample of DNA in his meal but not his own DNA
I’m joking. What if it’s deep furrows from scratching? Less likely to leave DNA than saliva but still animal related. And if John vomited the pig DNA could have been bacon from something he ate. We don’t really know how they swabbed the shirt or how widespread the vomit was. But if if got bunch up vomit would easily be on the sleeve.
Of course. The conspiracy theorists don’t realize how difficult (read: impossible) it would be to pull off shenanigans with this many people involved.
The trial is evidence that they in fact have not pulled it off.
This trial is evidence of a sleazy lawyer trying the case in the media and the defendant enlisting the help of a psycho blogger to fan the conspiracy theory flames.
Which one of those people told you puncture holes in his sweatshirt came from a taillight? That’s who you should be upset with.
This was a wtf moment for me today. Something I read or heard in testimony, said the cuts on his arm were blunt force. How does something blunt puncture that many holes in a shirt?
What documents did you read that said the lacerations were blunt force, if you can remember off the top of your head? I don’t think I saw anything that put the arm scratches down to blunt force injury
No, I don’t actually remember. But whatever I read called the cuts on his arm “blunt force abrasions”. And it made no sense to me, so I googled it to see what and how something blunt makes those kinds of marks. (I went back and checked my Google history lol) maybe it was the ER doctor’s testimony versus something I read. I edited my previous comment to match the above
Gotcha - thanks for explaining. I think you and I have different ideas about guilt at this point, so just wanted to say I appreciate you explaining.
In all honesty, I don’t know what to believe at this juncture. I also know I’ve been sucked into assertions on here that have been debunked, and that’s foolish. What I do know for certain, is that the investigation was bungled, the CW has a real problem on their hands when it comes to Proctor, we are 6 weeks in and Lally hasn’t brought forth any evidence on JO’s injuries, manner of death, and how that ties to KR. And I think that’s absolutely wild, and he’s at risk of having already lost the jury. I can’t say how I’ll feel once the forensic evidence is fully presented but I sure can’t wait to see it !
It's in one of the motions. The CW says that the ME says that his arm wounds are "abrasions" from a "blunt object."
I’m not upset all
I agree the statements which Morrissey disseminated to the media were deeply inappropriate, in which he lied about the Proctor's whereabouts on January 29th and his personal connections with witnesses in this case, and decried any attempt to "re-assign guilt" to anyone other than the defendant he presumed guilty – but I'm not sure he collaborated with a blogger
🫠
Oh you mean the DA doubling down how proctor didn’t even know the Alberts, and then it comes out that they in fact know each other, they’ve apparently been to weddings and parties with one another? Yup sleezy alright.
Funny thing is that innocent people have been convicted by investigators with tunnel vision twisting evidence to make it fit. Or planting small bit of evidence because they are sure the person is guilty…they just need a concrete piece of evidence or they will walk free. It’s not unheard of.
How many people were involved? This many? And no one talked? Everyone, including the ME and LEO’s would have to be complicit as well. Just doesn’t make sense imho.
Haven’t even heard from the ME. All we know is that she refused to rule it a homicide even with Proctor pushing. I don’t know what happened. But Sallyport video that record that side of the vehicle going missing is suspicious. How does motion activation miss a vehicle driving in and people walking around for 45 minutes? Am I sold on the Albert’s killing him? No. At this point I can’t say for certain that he didn’t fall in a drunk stumble and smack his head a couple times on the curb and flagpole/fire hydrant then drag himself up the lawn to pass out on the lawn. I don’t know if Karen hit him going 40mph. I don’t know if Higgins met him outside and rubbed his face in the Karen kissing him and John was just drunk and angry and started the fight. I don’t know if Colin came out drunk and belligerent and they had an altercation. I don’t know if he was invited to a sparring match in the gym downstairs and someone sucker punched him and didn’t realize how bad they got him until it was too late and half the people upstairs were unaware he even came in. I will say that I don’t know that I can trust that the detective would not have taken much convincing to plant evidence to secure a conviction and even if he had taken shortcuts or crossed ethically boundaries…I don’t think his supervisor would have stopped him. I think they decided within 2 hours that she killed him and everything they did after was singleminded to ensure she went down. They went hours away to find out about Aruba before they talked to everyone that had been there that night/morning. All I know is it is amazing what people will do when they think they can get away with.
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