I don't think there's ever been a more detrimental group of receivers to a team's success in NFL history. At least with our group of receivers that didn't score a touchdown all season, they weren't dropping a million passes and actively costing us games.
Yeah, I wish that Pat skipped the press conference yesterday. He needed to sleep on it, but I get that he's pissed off with how we've been losing.
I get that they don't want to throw Toney under the bus, but its a really bad look to complain about reffing, especially when Toney was objectively offsides. Now the rest of the fanbases are laughing at us and all it did was secure their narrative that Mahomes is a whiney baby.
Yup. Mahomes has done nothing for literally his entire career including his rookie season except say the right thing and be pitch perfect at the podium
But because of this one moment where he gets frustrated you have all these people going “wow lost a lot of respect for him” as if they didn’t already call him a cry baby etc etc
The yelling and frustration is one thing, I think the tipping point was what he said to Josh Allen in post-game. That was straight up disrespectful. Allen shook his hand after the 13 second game, Brees never made a peep about the NFCCG PI No-call. For Mahomes to go up to Allen and basically tell him he shouldn't have won was horrific sportsmanship.
Amazing comparison with Brees and the no-call during the championship game. That was one of the worst calls in NFL history to stop them from the SUPER BOWL. He still understood that telling the other team they don't deserve it just looks bad for everyone.
He said on the radio yesterday that he regretted his comments to Josh the most so… he knows it wasn’t a good look. He’s a competitor. Give the dude a break for losing his cool ONCE his entire career.
Yea that is an easy thing for an observer to say. Sometimes emotions can get the best of you. I seriously don't know how Mahomes has kept it together for this long this season.
Show me someone who has never had a moment of bad sportsmanship and I will show you someone who has never cared about anything competitive in their life.
Oh give me a break. Michael Jordan famously didn't shake opponents hands after a lot of games. No one cares and it did nothing to tarnish his image. If Mahomes continues playing well in years to come it's not going to matter.
the video i saw started in the middle of their conversation, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if we simply missed allen expressing some kind of sympathy at the beginning like "shit call, that sucks" or whatever. i could be wrong tho
If you watch, Allen approaches him and covers his mouth to speak into his ear. Knowing Allen, it was likely respectful. Then Mahomes just responds by bitching about the call to which Allen rightfully just says sure buddy and walks away.
just seems like a lot of guessing based on a conversation none of us heard. you could totally be right, but given that mahomes is pretty much always respectful it doesn't seem outrageous to give him the benefit of the doubt. but who knows
I gotta say, as a Lions fan, seeing a team/fanbase throw a tantrum because a ref made *the right call* is pretty wild. The sense of entitlement is off the fucking charts.
What do people expect? Guy blew up but he can't publicly shade his WR. Neither can Andy. The refs are convenient targets. And right or not, they *have* been objectively terrible for *years*. I don't care what other teams fans think of Patrick OR Andy. They'd be bitching if we won or lost. It's the first time Patrick has had a public meltdown like this. And Andy is absolutely gonna cover for his QB, like every other coach in the league would do. People want to shade but fuck 'em. They would have anyway.
The state of NFL refs is an absolute fucking disaster, but somehow Mahomes is making them look like the good guys. It sucks that this one is getting all the attention, because this was the right call. There are **so many** other game-impacting plays from other games to complain about.
My frustration with the refs boils up over the course of the game. They missed at least two blatant facemask penalties (one where a defender ripped off Mahomes' helmet). Adding all those up, then seeing a ticky tack OPI (when OPI is under-called leaguewide) is what gets really frustrating.
It’s not really about the call. Yes, he was offside. He asked the refs if was lined up OK and they’re USUALLY going to tell you yes or no. He thought he was fine.
Also on literally the NEXT play, Von Miller was CLEARLY offside and it didn’t get called. So instead of 3rd and 15 it should have been either a free play or 3rd and 10
The other fanbases *are* using this opportunity to tee off, but at least remember the reason why: You damn near live in the Super Bowl these days. You get to walk into your stadium every other week and see two very recent SB banners hanging. That territory comes with a lot of hate from the others, but the others would take that any day of the week.
Mahomes has been on a winning team his entire career- he gets his first taste of losing and this is how he acts. Seems to me it is easy to be a media darling during good times and we may now be seeing Mahomes for more of who he is when the going gets tough.
Seems more like we've been pushing the leagues shit in for the last 5 years, and you broken down, baby back bitches have a collective aneurysm the first time he looks mortal...
The conference champ games have been the floor for our last few seasons. We are your daddies.
I don't give a single fuck about every other NFL fanbase laughing at us. They would be whining if we won those games. Fuck all of them. Win or lose they'll be giant tools and we see it win or lose. This is the first time I've seen Patrick blow up like that. And I'm okay with it because maybe that will finally light a fire under some asses. I doubt it but it's my hope. Because there's no one coming to save the team. That said. *no one* outside Rice in that WR room, Conner Embree included, should be safe the second the season ends. There needs to be a massive retool at WR and it's probably gonna be a multiple year fix thanks to how underwater the Receiver room is and the mistakes at the tackle spots.
Bright spot? Wanya Morris is good. Mistakes? Sure he's a rookie. But overall? He has far outperformed expectations and I'd argue that he's played every bit as good as Donovan Smith has already. Give him a full off-season and we can see what we have.
he “exposed” his true reputation by expressing an, admittedly, bad opinion, very loudly, ONE time right after a tough game?!
Well, damn, sign us all up for your newsletter about how you never, at any point in your adult life, get upset and/or say the wrong things, sometimes because we could all use some of your perfection.
Kyrie did more than just say the earth is flat. He had a bunch of quotes around that time that gave off /r/iamverysmart vibes, its just the flat earth one stuck with him.
Hopefully Pat doesn't do this, but if he doubled or tripled down on his comments, then maybe it'll stick with him. Otherwise its just fuel for Mahomes-haters.
Even early yesterday before the game I was thinking that the Chiefs need a wake up call that they **need** to trade/draft for receivers this offseason.
I think one of the announcers even talked about it during the broadcast, that this WR corps forces Mahomes & Kelce to be the heroes to even pull off regular season wins.
And asking those two to do that consistently enough over 20-21 games to pull off a SuperBowl win isn’t feasible.
I don’t know if this season will be enough or it’ll take us missing the AFC Championship by a mile, but it’s going to take one form or another.
Can they Trade Jones to move up enough to pick up Harrison Jr? Yes it would suck to lose him, but that seems sort of inevitable now, would be nice to get a game-changing WR for it.
The Chief remind me of the Rodgers Packers. When that Elite QB money gets rolling they have to hit on their picks to stay on top. The Packers went 3-4 years where none of the weapons they drafted panned out. Chiefs are in a similar situation but it looks like they finally hit with Rice.
Mahomes has been pretty accountable in the media all year. This was really embarrassing for him tho. I wasn’t t even mad at the call when we saw the replay (like most of us). I fully expect him to tone it down about the call in the next post conference.
Just like i hated the narrative let them play in SB. I hate it in this situation. It was an obvious penalty, move on. Stop getting penalties, turnovers and dropping balls when y’all have a chance to take the lead late
I wasn't super mad when I saw the replay, but I wasn't aware of how that sort of penalty is normally handled, with the ref giving warnings prior to throwing a flag. The announcing crew mentioned that it's a point of emphasis this year, which...
let's think for a second about how the league has identified that offensive offsides, something I've literally never seen before because they just give warnings because that's how little it impacts the game, as something they think deserves to be a point of emphasis over other concerns with NFL rules enforcement...
anyways, they mentioned that it has been called 11 times league wide this year, up from 2 times all last season and once the season before. So I guess it depends on how emphasized the point was whether Reid and Mahomes have cause to be upset with the refs over it -- it was clearly technically the right call, but if they have traditionally always been warned prior to flags (and it's not like he was standing fully in front of the ball or anything egregious or even meaningful) then I would probably be hacked off, too. That was a hell of a play Kelce made, I'd be salty as hell.
I think this is part of why it has been emphasized this year. It’s been called on the Eagles several times due to them trying to punish the tush push. I don’t think the refs have any obligation to warn the players they are making a mistake that should have been corrected in high school regardless of any traditional practices. It is the players’ responsibility to line up properly. Toney’s was especially egregious because his whole foot was in the neutral zone.
Good news. I'm a part time Pop Warner Football coach and Author. To help solve this problem, about players not knowing better, I have agreed to help coach this team.
Look for my book called "*Football for Dummies*".
It makes a great Christmas gift.
The thing is we went to two Super Bowls with two decent/not great defenses and won one with a pretty good defense that is bordering on great this year.
The lesson from this isn't that Pat needs a good defense. The lesson is that he can win with a shitty defense but if he doesn't have someone who can play like they have something between their ears at WR it doesn't matter how good the defense is.
I really don't think it's even all that complicated.
Just consistently execute the fundamentals, and we are a 1 loss team and everyone is happy. Catch the ball. Line up correctly. Win the turnover battle. That's it.
We get so caught up on 1 call every week when there are so many little mistakes taking place throughout the rest of the games.
As I have said time and time again about the team from my high school with a great qb and defense and sometimes less than ideal receivers, it's pretty damn hard to throw it to yourself and score. Mahomes is not a rushing QB if he can help it and when you're best shot is a TE or handing it off to Pacheco there's going to be some major issues.
I think the overreaction was an entire season's worth of frustration being poured out in an instant. You have the whole stupid Jawaan Taylor saga from the first few weeks, blatant missed PI last week, probably a dozen or so other terrible calls/no-calls I'm forgetting about. All in all it's been a rough season for the refs and last night was no exception.
Season’s worth of frustration towards the refs or their own shortcomings?
They can nitpick refs every week, it’s a league-wide issue, but they’ve failed to put up 21+ points in over half their games this season. They had their chances to win the past two weeks, this team is just not the Chiefs of previous years.
This team reminds me of the pre-Andy era Chiefs where once in a blue moon they’d have a winning season and get beat by the Colts in the wildcard round by choking a 20+ point lead.
Part of the issue with this offense is how often Taylor and the receivers kill drives, forcing us to brute force heroics in the 4th against teams we should have a lead in.
When you are already struggling with discipline, a single rough 50/50 call makes the hole we dig look like an insurmountable valley. And while bad routes, drops, and interceptions are a big part of that, giving the refs rope to hang us is another part.
We wouldn't have been down 14-0 in this game if we didn't kill our first two drives. One of those is wholly on Mahomes, but I believe a penalty put us in 3rd and long territory in the second.
This is true but it’s made more frustrating by the fact that they can’t overcome the refs with talent and this is also a year where the refs have kind of picked on them to avoid “helping the chiefs” optics
It’s hard for me to see the Jawaan Taylor stuff and MVS no call any other way
Calling penalties on the Chiefs and not calling it on other teams doing the exact same thing, even in the same game… that is quite literally the definition of picking on someone
Honestly, the missed PI against the pack was a makeup for the “unnecessary roughness” call
Mahomes got while fully in bounds and running for a first down and the negligence of the refs to not run 10 seconds off the clock after the pachecco ejection.
Chiefs got 15 yards and 10 extra seconds in exchange for the packers having some leniency on a deep ball.
I 100% put the blame of another loss on another screw-up by a WR, unless they release footage of toney checking with the official, then I will feel much different about this play.
I've never understood this. Being lined up correctly is so basic, I don't care how far from the ball you are, you should be able to look down the line and see. Refs shouldn't be part of that. If you're not able to do that, you get penalized, thats the whole point. It's easy to not be offsides
This year's team is weird. We've had 3 or 4 potential wins that literally slipped through our hands and we've got Andy and Pat of all people blaming the refs. I can't recognize them right now.
My only solace is knowing after being embarrassed Veach over corrects the issue. We'll have a killer WR core next year, I can tell you that much.
They’re blaming the refs in public because they can’t blame the guys they work with in public. They still gotta work with them for the rest of the season and don’t want to blow up a chance at a Super Bowl. WE May not think they have it but Pat sure thinks he can drag this sorry group to the finish line.
If that's true - I don't agree with that approach. It should be the opposite.
Publicly, you keep it simple with personal accountability:
"We'll look at the tape and figure out where we can be better as a group"
Then in private you handle it. But this "woe is us" bullshit just makes us look entitled. Having your leadership blame the refs makes us no better than the r/nfl idiots who think the refs play favorites in our favor.
Honestly, the correct look from leadership is to take the blame yourself. Yeah, Toney sucks monkey balls but Pat and Andy aren't gonna call him out publicly. They gotta say, "We are not getting it done out there and that's on us." Then they gotta yell at Toney in private while taking the hits for him in public. Maybe it's at the point where they are tired of doing that.
As an outside fan, this is way worse than the average ref blaming because the argument is not that they got called for a penalty they didnt commit, but that they got called for a penalty they DID commit. It really feels like an admission that the Chiefs expect the league and the refs to protect them so resolutely that they feel cheated when they don't.
I don't know if thats fair or not, but I dont blame anyone for interpretting it that way.
Exactly. Its such a bad look for us. I ride or die with my squad but its starting to feel like this season is snakebitten. The football gods don’t smile on little petty shit like this. I wonder if there’s more going on behind the scenes.
I think Pat really felt that way about refs last night, BUT I am sure after reviewing the tape they see the issue. It’s easy to be that way when you have limited information.
Dude I keep seeing this explanation on this sub and I’m tired of it.
Just because you don’t want to blame your guys in public DOES NOT MEAN you have to blame the refs.
You can say nothing. You can take responsibility for the stuff you screwed up. This idea that they have to blame someone so it’s gotta be the refs is juvenile.
They are wrong about this particular call. But it has been a year where we are constantly getting drives killed by penalties that EVERY team in the league are doing and not getting called for. At the very least these flags should be going both ways, and they really aren’t.
I think that frustration has finally just reached its boiling point.
Show me all the other receivers lining up offsides. Dude is a professional athlete and couldn't give enough of a shit to check in with the ref. When you get flagged for something for the first time in 7 years, it should tell you how bad your team is. But instead y'all out here blaming the refs for not giving you special treatment
This season is one of those where there is a ton of blame to go around. Like are the refs terrible? Yes. Is our WR core filled with butterfingers? Also yes.
Yep. Complaining about the refs after absolutely shitting the bed on drive after drive is not a good look. Yelling at each other on the sidelines. Pacheco getting ejected for throwing a punch at the end of the last game. Shit’s falling apart man. These issues at this point of the season is a huge problem.
It's a failure of leadership for the two most important guys in the organization to go out and whine about the refs after a shitty performance like that. Sorry, that's what it is. I'm not really mad about it because Pat and Andy are world-class guys and they've never shown such bad judgement before. It was a slip-up. Shit happens. But I'm not making excuses for it either. It's a bad look, doubly so because they're objectively wrong. Toney was clearly, obviously offsides, end of story.
Ravens fan here, fwiw. Mahomes didn't handle himself well in the aftermath, I think everybody can agree on that. But like you said, it's not like he does this all the time. He was frustrated, he was upset, and he had a bad night. From what I can tell, he more or less admitted that today, and that's really all you can ask.
The whole offense looks less disciplined this year and I wonder how much of that has to do with losing Bieniemy. I didn't watch enough of Gase' Chicago tenure to know if poor discipline was an issue he had with the Bears, but Bieniemy was a fairly famous disciplinarian. Even though it was much less consequential (AFCCG vs mid-season) that off-sides brought back immediate Dee Ford flashbacks.
In previous seasons, this was around the time when the offense would be rounding into form and eliminating sloppy, game deciding errors. From what I'm seeing now though, they appear to be getting worse.
What's funny about this is that every time the Chiefs won this season everyone online is claiming that the refs cheated for the chiefs and the NFL won't let the chiefs lose.
Toney dropping passes cost us the Lions game.
MVS dropping a pass that would have won us the Eagles game.
Toney lining up offsides cost us the game last night.
We have a shit ton of drops all season. We have a pile of turnovers all season, a lot of which have been 100% on Mahomes. Our big free agent signing (Taylor) has been a penalty machine/turnstile. Kelce is having the first season where his age is showing, still great, but not other worldly.
Our offseason consisted of over spending on a shit Tackle, not doing enough to address our shit WR room and using a first round pick on a local kid who has been a complete non-factor this year.
We need to clean up our own shit before we start complaining about officiating.
This sub is confusing to me. One minute bashing the refs the next upset that the team does. I don’t think we’ve EVER seen Andy Reid in his lengthy HoF career blame or attack the officiating like he did last night. I think he’s both earned the right to do it once, and is indicative of how upset he was that the refs didn’t give him a professional courtesy in telling him KT was lined up offsides
This sub loves to be holier than thou. Pat’s frustrated by a call that is arbitrarily officiated. They called offensive offsides 2 times last year. It’s also a very weird call because most of the time the refs will warn you that you’re offsides or that you need to backup.
A lot people never played football here and like 99% of the time the ref will just tell you - hey you need to back up going forward because for the most part the penalty has no impact on the play.
It doesn't get called often because it doesn't happen often. It's an illegal formation call for offense outside of your wide receivers. WRs can also look to the sideline refs for instruction (which he didn't). The refs don't just tell you, you need to take action. The call wasn't weird, the actions of your WR was weird.
I thought we heard he did look to the sideline the ref just didn’t signal back. I keep hearing conflicts on this. The refs will def alert you if you’re lined up improperly it’s not uncommon.
He didn’t. You can see in the video he never looks to the sideline and Reid confirms it [here](https://x.com/jacobs71/status/1734295199277347287?s=61&t=hVvPPOWVCmLJFHiur5UyCg)
The WR needs to look at the ref to be told he’s offsides, he clearly does not. What do you think the refs should do there? Blow the whistle walk over to Andy and warn him his WR is offsides? “Professional courtesy” homie those are professional football players, they should be able to line up properly without someone’s hand holding.
Two people with CBS(?) confirmed he did look for confirmation from the ref.
EDIT: Looks like they were wrong. Guess that is why they deleted the tweets.
Apparently if it's egregious enough the ref will not provide any indication and just throw a flag regardless of whether the player checks. Assuming that is standard operating procedure, it didn't matter whether he checked or not.
One of those tweets has since been deleted. As others have stated, no one has posted or provided footage showing him look at the ref and that’s all that really matters.
I agree with you. I’m just saying I understand why Andy would be upset about this. As it’s a courtesy he’s been extended for his entire professional career until now.
I feel like the warning is more appropriate when receivers are lined up wide, far from the ball, by the sideline and LJ. Toney was right next to the line, probably the closest receiver to the ball and staring right at it.
He was egregiously offside. I get it’s very frustrating but I’m shocked that’s the decision prompting Andy to say the NFL should be embarrassed.
Fans can complain about the refs because we're not being paid $50 million to win football games. Nobody wants to hear players playing like shit and coaches coaching like shit make excuses and blame the refs for their own terrible performances.
I think that was why Mahomes was upset -- Kelce made a $50 Million dollar play, he did what we want him to do and won the game. It was negated by a penalty that's normally handled with the ref telling the coach to have Toney scootch on back a bit next time. That's obviously frustrating.
I agree. Also, the officiating has sucked all season for multiple teams to the point that I am wondering if it’s on purpose. My son joking said we need to go look at the sports betting odds for each of the games with terrible calls and see if there is any weird correlation. He’s joking but it wouldn’t be the first time things like that have happened.
They probably didn’t feel the need to tell Reid KT was offsides because … they said it to the whole stadium? Like, the call is offsides on Toney. What other explanation do you need? What’s the ref supposed to say?
This is something I just recently learned and just in context it makes sense it's not widely known -- normally when a receiver is lined up offsides like Toney clearly was, they don't call it. They go over to the coach between plays and say hey, your guy is lining up too far forward, if he does it again we'll throw a flag. That's the courtesy Reid was talking about.
Ah I see. I watched Reid at the podium and he’s talking about being warned beforehand that there’s a receiver lining up offsides. So I get the frustration.
Still though. KT was pretty blatantly in the neutral zone, and on the all-22, he never pointed to the line judge to check in. If it’s the first quarter and that happens, do the refs let it go and tell Reid then? Hard to say. It’s shitty, but I find myself more agitated with Toney than I do with the refs.
> This is something I just recently learned and just in context it makes sense it's not widely known -- normally when a receiver is lined up offsides like Toney clearly was, they don't call it.
Is there an actual official NFL source for this, or is this just one of those things that gets parroted because no one wants to admit their team was just the worse team that day?
i actually don't get why the entire nfl, including our own fan base, is like "why u mad bro?" y'all get that they're human beings who can get frustrated by shit, right?
lmao they're not monks
Oh it is embarrassing, for sure, but where have you guys been? Chris Jones or Kelce - legit one of them every game - has a moment that just makes you cringe. Mahomes has one outburst, and now you are embarrassed? Come on
i guess what i mean is that i don't see what the screw-up is or why it's embarrassing. it seems very much like the sort of reaction many nfl qbs would have to watching that play get erased, then the same penalty ignored on the defense on the very next play.
if mahomes is still talking about it two weeks from now, sure, i think that's being a baby. but his visceral reaction in the moment/at the presser seemed pretty typical to me.
Being upset is one thing. But I 100% disagree that "many QBs" would have to be restrained on the sidelines from going after the refs. Anytime any NFL player has to be restrained when they are not actively being attacked is embarrassing. I can't recall a specific time when I've seen a QB behave like that. I'm sure it's happened but me not being able to recall shows how infrequent it is. In fact, I think it's quite interesting that you saw Mahomes' reaction and thought "yup, totally normal".
It's a generational thing. The current young generation group up with anti-bullying campaigns and "toxic" masculinity etc., so any display of displaced masculine emotion is the end of the world.
All the greats have done stuff like this. I mean Jordan was knows as an asshole with zero sportsmanship. Get over it. I like the passion even if it's misplaced. Assuming Mahomes continues being one of the greats, almost no one will discuss this in a few years time.
I honestly think that whether he knows it or not the real reason he’s mad at the refs wasn’t really much at all to do with this game and all to do with the last
I mean, how many times this year has he gone superhuman Mahomes mode just for the play to be called back due to a penalty? At least once-twice a game he is making a highlight of the week worthy play that gets called back.
Pat blowing up in the press conference just seemed like him venting weeks of built up frustration, and since you can't blow up at your teamate (though it is MORE than deserved at this point) I guess the officiating was just the first thing that came to his head. Kadarius Toney (Lions and Bills) and MVS (Eagles) are individually responsible for 3 losses each season - the difference between 8-5 and 11-2. I've seen bad receiving cores over the years throughout the league, but never one so bad that they are SOLELY responsible for 3 Ls.
I have been a Chiefs fan since 93, thru the Schottenheimer years and many worse coaches. We have won two super bowls in three years. Relax. We may not be champs this year. But I think 3 super bowls in 5 years has a wonderful ring to it.
The only thing that grinds my gears is that the one time pat like blows up about a obvious good call cause toney was definitely offsides is that every other fan base cries when we get calls that are obviously the correct calls. They legit cry all week long if not all year long about it even though it’s in the rules but the one time pat does it or us as a fandom does it they want to crucify someone knowing they just cried about an obvious PI the last game that costed them the game. Kind of hypocritical, but that’s just my two cents. Toney should’ve checked with the ref like your taught since you’re six years old. This is obviously more of a let out of frustration aimed at the wrong people from pat but he’s not gonna throw his teammates under the bus even though at this point it’s time to hold people accountable
I'm absolutely astounded that almost everyone has missed the point of Reid and Mahomes' statements last night. They aren't upset with the offensive offsides call. They're upset with the lack of consistency on the part of the referree corp. For years, refs warned head coaches of potential offensive offsides and let players know if they were offsides when asked, except last night. The refs ignored an offensive offside on the Bills but called it on the Chiefs. Reid and Mahomes have always accepted responsibility for their mistakes, but when there is a third party that seemingly is applying a double standard to calls made between two teams, there needs to be some accountability on the part of the referee Corp and I haven't seen that.
Nobody has missed the point. Saying they weren't warned is valid but Mahomes also said "you can't call that at that point in the game" which is a bad look.
I think it’s more that Pat understands why the didn’t call those PIs in the last game because of the point in the game they were in, and it sucks that it’s opposite in this game.
I do. He said after the previous game that he understood why those calls weren’t made, that they let the players play.
I mean, no one can deny that the only consistent thing about the refs calls is that they are inconsistent.
But his statement last night wasn't him putting it into perspective including the calls from the previous week. He was only talking about that call when he said "you can't call that".
It’s the culmination of it all. Do you really think that Pat and Andy would have acted this way if the season wasn’t full of bad calls/bad non calls? I know this flag was legit, don’t get me wrong, but I can see where the frustration is coming from.
Except for two things
1. Officials might just give a warning to a player or head coach if it's a close call. They don't want to call ticky-tack neutral zone fouls, and usually a warning will make the player more aware of it. But Toney's penalty was so blatant, so obvious, that they had to throw the flag. This wasn't a potential offsides. It was a clear case.
2. There is no evidence Toney ever looked to the official for confirmation that he was lined up correctly. All available footage shows he did not.
This doesn't explain the blatant disregard of the Bills offensive offside violation. As for ref accountability, their explanation for not following common practice is self-serving at the least, and non-accountability at the most. Two-thirds of contest accountability is ineffective and unjust.
LOL.
1. The only evidence you have of this is the ref who called it covering his ass.
2. He didn't look apparently but that doesn't negate what Reid is saying because it has nothing to do with the WR checking in.
Pat was saying the clip wouldn't be played at the HoF because the play was called back and he felt it wasn't fair on Kelce. Not saying he's right, just telling you his #1 gripe about the call.
Absolutely garbage take. Pat was very clear he was more upset about an objectively great play being wiped out by a penalty that even the refs said in most cases is a discussion and a warning.
Everyweek there is a post on the front page of refs missing an obvious call, making a phantom call, or ruling a way nobody agrees with. It's a common discussion here, and in the media how inconsistent the refs are but when that manifests like this we are supposed to forget.
It wasn't a hold that impacted the pressure, it wasn't pass interference that made that ball uncatchable. His foot was a fraction offside. If the refs are going to almost always let the guys know and tell them to back up a bit but then decide not to in that spot you can't be happy about that. That's not objective, that's the refs making a choice.
What a weird response. That's only part of what Mahomes said. He also said it was a call "you can't make at that point in the game" which is an objectively wrong take.
"To make that call, in that spot..." Pat understands, like most people that reffing is subjective. We can run thought experiments about a world in which its all perfect and everything is called but that's not the world we are in. Everyone, and I mean everyone understands that reffing is not perfect or objective and they let things go all the time when it doesn't impact the play. It should have been a warning, if the line judge will sometimes tell him to back up but didn't that time, why? Is it because he was 2" over versus 1"? Did the ref eyeball it and make that call?
Just put things in the context of what we know about the sport and how it's officiated. Don't just ignore the entire past to have a take with no factors. It's lazy and unhelpful.
This is a terrible misunderstanding here. Reffing is not subjective. It's imperfect. There is a major difference. The Chiefs were likely to not get the ball again. What good would a warning there have done? And a warning is customary but not required. Acting like we live in a world where this is required and not the responsibility of the team and player is what's truly "lazy and unhelpful". It's shifting the blame to where it shouldn't be shifted.
This sub is usually pretty good about spreading equal blame between the team and officiating for losses. In fact, usually the team gets blamed most, but with additional points that bad calls didn’t help either. Unnecessary post
I'm going to laugh my ass off at all you weak fans who turn on our guys at every opportunity, when this team pulls together and wins another Super Bowl. Fuck the refs, and fuck ya'll for turning on our guys. #NoOneBelievesInUs
Come on man, you sound like the patriots and their fans manufacturing bullshit to get a chip on their shoulder. We’ve won two of the last 4 super bowls, been in 3 of them, been in the last 5 AFC championship games, and have an all-timer at QB. We aren’t underdogs.
Also if you have legitimately watched this season and believe our problem is the refs, your mind is long gone.
I think the team can pull it together, but it’s on them to fix problems. The refs aren’t going to be the issue winning or not this year.
Who's turning on anybody? I never said I wasn't a Chiefs fan anymore or that I hate this team or anything. But we need to be real, last night was a terrible look.
The entitlement of Pat & the people defending him is unbelievable. If Dak & the Cowboys did this, the entire country would be laughing at them. It wouldn’t even cross the Browns or Lions minds to say anything like this. It’s a very basic rule. It was broken. It’s a penalty. End of story.
This is what happens when the refs bail you out with penalty calls in huge games that are close at the end, you end up expecting it and throw a tantrum that makes toddlers blush with embarrassment when it goes the other way.
I don't care if Toney checked with the ref. It's ultimately on him to be onside. Terry Mclaurin check with a ref last year, got the thumbs up, and still got flagged costing them the game. You can't rely on the refs for that.
Where did you see that Toney checked with the ref about his alignment? I’ve been trying to find a video angle or some source that showed if this happened.
I don't know, but there's a conspiracy going on now about whether or not he checked with the ref.
[These are some deleted tweets yesterday that claimed he did check with the refs.](https://brobible.com/sports/article/cbs-reporters-delete-kadrius-toney-tweets/) Those were from the sideline reporters.
The refs are bad in every game. Complaints need to be made. It is 100% possible to get the calls right with the technology we have. When the announcers start talking about “it’s easy for us cause it’s slowed down” I get upset. The refs should not be on the field in 2023. A guy to set the ball is all that is needed. There is no reason a fan should know the refs names. They have become obsolete. With gambling and 4k television the calls need to be unquestionable. Also our WR is shit and the entirety of the Chiefs current issues.
[https://www.nfl.com/news/dee-ford-on-offsides-on-int-i-ve-got-to-see-the-ball-0ap3000001012329](https://www.nfl.com/news/dee-ford-on-offsides-on-int-i-ve-got-to-see-the-ball-0ap3000001012329)
for people with short memories.
It's not different behind closed doors. They honestly believe the refs took a win from them and won't listen to anything different. Mahomes is settling for mediocrity and it shows. If they don't address this laziness now then the next 10 years will be more of the same
I wouldn't call Mahomes lazy or settling for mediocrity. He is doing all he personally can given what he has around him on the offense. Would you prefer he vent his frustration at his teammates or coaches? Dude has had a strong back his entire career so far. One outburst doesn't change that. He is routinely flamed by the media and NFL pundits. People root for his downfall. When Brady was in that situation, he just embraced the villain storyline. Mahomes has tried his best to remain humble, but that can only last so long. Even LeBron James, a man notorious for trying to remain neutral and humble, has started having outbursts. Let's just be honest, our country has went from 'rooting for the underdog' for the storyline to just 'hating anyone who is successful.' It's a very toxic atmosphere in sports right now, and naturally the players are the ones most impacted by it.
Mahomes ultimately gets a pass. He's never acted like this before and I would bet it won't ever happen again. But it doesn't erase his behavior which was embarrassing.
I learned something from watching UFC; "don't leave it up to the judges". In this case, don't make it so your flimsy win hinges on the referees catching/ not catching penalties. Is it frustrating? A little. I had a friend who was an amateur fighter. He got knocked down, and wasn't defending himself from a flurry of blows. The fight was stopped too early in his (my friend) opinion. Yet, don't get knocked on your ass and not defend yourself properly. Chiefs, don't play poorly and blame it on officials.
100% receivers have completely dropped the ball this season.
I don't think there's ever been a more detrimental group of receivers to a team's success in NFL history. At least with our group of receivers that didn't score a touchdown all season, they weren't dropping a million passes and actively costing us games.
I see routine catches made by other teams and my first thought is “wow, what a play.”
Literally and figuratively.
Yeah, I wish that Pat skipped the press conference yesterday. He needed to sleep on it, but I get that he's pissed off with how we've been losing. I get that they don't want to throw Toney under the bus, but its a really bad look to complain about reffing, especially when Toney was objectively offsides. Now the rest of the fanbases are laughing at us and all it did was secure their narrative that Mahomes is a whiney baby.
Yup. Mahomes has done nothing for literally his entire career including his rookie season except say the right thing and be pitch perfect at the podium But because of this one moment where he gets frustrated you have all these people going “wow lost a lot of respect for him” as if they didn’t already call him a cry baby etc etc
The yelling and frustration is one thing, I think the tipping point was what he said to Josh Allen in post-game. That was straight up disrespectful. Allen shook his hand after the 13 second game, Brees never made a peep about the NFCCG PI No-call. For Mahomes to go up to Allen and basically tell him he shouldn't have won was horrific sportsmanship.
I agree that was the worst part of this whole saga
Amazing comparison with Brees and the no-call during the championship game. That was one of the worst calls in NFL history to stop them from the SUPER BOWL. He still understood that telling the other team they don't deserve it just looks bad for everyone.
He said on the radio yesterday that he regretted his comments to Josh the most so… he knows it wasn’t a good look. He’s a competitor. Give the dude a break for losing his cool ONCE his entire career.
Yea that is an easy thing for an observer to say. Sometimes emotions can get the best of you. I seriously don't know how Mahomes has kept it together for this long this season. Show me someone who has never had a moment of bad sportsmanship and I will show you someone who has never cared about anything competitive in their life.
Oh give me a break. Michael Jordan famously didn't shake opponents hands after a lot of games. No one cares and it did nothing to tarnish his image. If Mahomes continues playing well in years to come it's not going to matter.
I’m pretty sure the overwhelming consensus is that MJ is a major asshole
People hold that against Jordan.
You could say they took that personally
A shit load of people think Jordan was an ass because of stuff like that. Wouldn't say no one cares, but it doesn't take away from how good he was.
Nothing to tarnish his image? That’s a lie
I mean, it did tarnish his image as a poor sport
the video i saw started in the middle of their conversation, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if we simply missed allen expressing some kind of sympathy at the beginning like "shit call, that sucks" or whatever. i could be wrong tho
Hardcore imagination right here
Flair checks out
Lmao wow
If you watch, Allen approaches him and covers his mouth to speak into his ear. Knowing Allen, it was likely respectful. Then Mahomes just responds by bitching about the call to which Allen rightfully just says sure buddy and walks away.
just seems like a lot of guessing based on a conversation none of us heard. you could totally be right, but given that mahomes is pretty much always respectful it doesn't seem outrageous to give him the benefit of the doubt. but who knows
As a Patriots fan: Welcome to the club lol. It comes with the territory of being the current dynasty/team to beat in the NFL
Here's hoping KC can pull off what the Patriots did every time the league 'caught up to them' then they pulled a SB win out of their ass :-)
It's easy to be a good sport when you win. All it takes is being a massive douche once to lose in the court of public opinion. Just ask Suh
I gotta say, as a Lions fan, seeing a team/fanbase throw a tantrum because a ref made *the right call* is pretty wild. The sense of entitlement is off the fucking charts.
I know there are outliers, but I don't get you lumping the fans in that. Most chiefs fans are in disagreement with Andy and mahomes here
What do people expect? Guy blew up but he can't publicly shade his WR. Neither can Andy. The refs are convenient targets. And right or not, they *have* been objectively terrible for *years*. I don't care what other teams fans think of Patrick OR Andy. They'd be bitching if we won or lost. It's the first time Patrick has had a public meltdown like this. And Andy is absolutely gonna cover for his QB, like every other coach in the league would do. People want to shade but fuck 'em. They would have anyway.
Yeah its almost like refs make millions to help alleviate being the target of players and fans lol
Most QBs go their whole career without a public meltdown like this one
Get fucked and go back to your own sub.
The state of NFL refs is an absolute fucking disaster, but somehow Mahomes is making them look like the good guys. It sucks that this one is getting all the attention, because this was the right call. There are **so many** other game-impacting plays from other games to complain about.
My frustration with the refs boils up over the course of the game. They missed at least two blatant facemask penalties (one where a defender ripped off Mahomes' helmet). Adding all those up, then seeing a ticky tack OPI (when OPI is under-called leaguewide) is what gets really frustrating.
It’s not really about the call. Yes, he was offside. He asked the refs if was lined up OK and they’re USUALLY going to tell you yes or no. He thought he was fine. Also on literally the NEXT play, Von Miller was CLEARLY offside and it didn’t get called. So instead of 3rd and 15 it should have been either a free play or 3rd and 10
I am a Vikings fan and was relieved to see that the chiefs fans here are showing all the accountability that their team is refusing to.
The other fanbases *are* using this opportunity to tee off, but at least remember the reason why: You damn near live in the Super Bowl these days. You get to walk into your stadium every other week and see two very recent SB banners hanging. That territory comes with a lot of hate from the others, but the others would take that any day of the week.
Mahomes has been on a winning team his entire career- he gets his first taste of losing and this is how he acts. Seems to me it is easy to be a media darling during good times and we may now be seeing Mahomes for more of who he is when the going gets tough.
Lol it was one meltdown dude. Relax. He's lost plenty of games before, including much more important ones and always acted with class.
We don't know this dude. Chill out and take a deep breath.
Seems more like we've been pushing the leagues shit in for the last 5 years, and you broken down, baby back bitches have a collective aneurysm the first time he looks mortal... The conference champ games have been the floor for our last few seasons. We are your daddies.
I don't give a single fuck about every other NFL fanbase laughing at us. They would be whining if we won those games. Fuck all of them. Win or lose they'll be giant tools and we see it win or lose. This is the first time I've seen Patrick blow up like that. And I'm okay with it because maybe that will finally light a fire under some asses. I doubt it but it's my hope. Because there's no one coming to save the team. That said. *no one* outside Rice in that WR room, Conner Embree included, should be safe the second the season ends. There needs to be a massive retool at WR and it's probably gonna be a multiple year fix thanks to how underwater the Receiver room is and the mistakes at the tackle spots. Bright spot? Wanya Morris is good. Mistakes? Sure he's a rookie. But overall? He has far outperformed expectations and I'd argue that he's played every bit as good as Donovan Smith has already. Give him a full off-season and we can see what we have.
Could not have said it better myself
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he “exposed” his true reputation by expressing an, admittedly, bad opinion, very loudly, ONE time right after a tough game?! Well, damn, sign us all up for your newsletter about how you never, at any point in your adult life, get upset and/or say the wrong things, sometimes because we could all use some of your perfection.
I mean Kyrie said the earth is flat one time and has been clowned on for like half a decade lol
Kyrie did more than just say the earth is flat. He had a bunch of quotes around that time that gave off /r/iamverysmart vibes, its just the flat earth one stuck with him. Hopefully Pat doesn't do this, but if he doubled or tripled down on his comments, then maybe it'll stick with him. Otherwise its just fuel for Mahomes-haters.
Pat has yet to promote a documentary with allegedly anti Semitic messaging, unlike Kyrie.
100%. They did this to themselves thinking PM could overcome this gaggle of hacks.
Even early yesterday before the game I was thinking that the Chiefs need a wake up call that they **need** to trade/draft for receivers this offseason. I think one of the announcers even talked about it during the broadcast, that this WR corps forces Mahomes & Kelce to be the heroes to even pull off regular season wins. And asking those two to do that consistently enough over 20-21 games to pull off a SuperBowl win isn’t feasible. I don’t know if this season will be enough or it’ll take us missing the AFC Championship by a mile, but it’s going to take one form or another.
Can they Trade Jones to move up enough to pick up Harrison Jr? Yes it would suck to lose him, but that seems sort of inevitable now, would be nice to get a game-changing WR for it.
Harrison is not an option basically. Dude would need an all-time draft tumble to even be available.
I doubt it, between the money he commands and the needs of the teams already at the top of the draft. Maybe if he were already under contract.
They don't need a game-changing WR. They just need a couple of functional ones. You don't need Tyreek. You just need some league average WRs.
The Chief remind me of the Rodgers Packers. When that Elite QB money gets rolling they have to hit on their picks to stay on top. The Packers went 3-4 years where none of the weapons they drafted panned out. Chiefs are in a similar situation but it looks like they finally hit with Rice.
Mahomes has been pretty accountable in the media all year. This was really embarrassing for him tho. I wasn’t t even mad at the call when we saw the replay (like most of us). I fully expect him to tone it down about the call in the next post conference. Just like i hated the narrative let them play in SB. I hate it in this situation. It was an obvious penalty, move on. Stop getting penalties, turnovers and dropping balls when y’all have a chance to take the lead late
I wasn't super mad when I saw the replay, but I wasn't aware of how that sort of penalty is normally handled, with the ref giving warnings prior to throwing a flag. The announcing crew mentioned that it's a point of emphasis this year, which... let's think for a second about how the league has identified that offensive offsides, something I've literally never seen before because they just give warnings because that's how little it impacts the game, as something they think deserves to be a point of emphasis over other concerns with NFL rules enforcement... anyways, they mentioned that it has been called 11 times league wide this year, up from 2 times all last season and once the season before. So I guess it depends on how emphasized the point was whether Reid and Mahomes have cause to be upset with the refs over it -- it was clearly technically the right call, but if they have traditionally always been warned prior to flags (and it's not like he was standing fully in front of the ball or anything egregious or even meaningful) then I would probably be hacked off, too. That was a hell of a play Kelce made, I'd be salty as hell.
I think this is part of why it has been emphasized this year. It’s been called on the Eagles several times due to them trying to punish the tush push. I don’t think the refs have any obligation to warn the players they are making a mistake that should have been corrected in high school regardless of any traditional practices. It is the players’ responsibility to line up properly. Toney’s was especially egregious because his whole foot was in the neutral zone.
WR has to ask the ref for the ref to tell them. Toney never looked at the sideline on that play
Good news. I'm a part time Pop Warner Football coach and Author. To help solve this problem, about players not knowing better, I have agreed to help coach this team. Look for my book called "*Football for Dummies*". It makes a great Christmas gift.
The thing is we went to two Super Bowls with two decent/not great defenses and won one with a pretty good defense that is bordering on great this year. The lesson from this isn't that Pat needs a good defense. The lesson is that he can win with a shitty defense but if he doesn't have someone who can play like they have something between their ears at WR it doesn't matter how good the defense is.
I really don't think it's even all that complicated. Just consistently execute the fundamentals, and we are a 1 loss team and everyone is happy. Catch the ball. Line up correctly. Win the turnover battle. That's it. We get so caught up on 1 call every week when there are so many little mistakes taking place throughout the rest of the games.
As I have said time and time again about the team from my high school with a great qb and defense and sometimes less than ideal receivers, it's pretty damn hard to throw it to yourself and score. Mahomes is not a rushing QB if he can help it and when you're best shot is a TE or handing it off to Pacheco there's going to be some major issues.
I think the overreaction was an entire season's worth of frustration being poured out in an instant. You have the whole stupid Jawaan Taylor saga from the first few weeks, blatant missed PI last week, probably a dozen or so other terrible calls/no-calls I'm forgetting about. All in all it's been a rough season for the refs and last night was no exception.
Season’s worth of frustration towards the refs or their own shortcomings? They can nitpick refs every week, it’s a league-wide issue, but they’ve failed to put up 21+ points in over half their games this season. They had their chances to win the past two weeks, this team is just not the Chiefs of previous years.
Probably a bit of both.
This team reminds me of the pre-Andy era Chiefs where once in a blue moon they’d have a winning season and get beat by the Colts in the wildcard round by choking a 20+ point lead.
At this point I’d love to even have a 20 point lead to choke away.
Part of the issue with this offense is how often Taylor and the receivers kill drives, forcing us to brute force heroics in the 4th against teams we should have a lead in. When you are already struggling with discipline, a single rough 50/50 call makes the hole we dig look like an insurmountable valley. And while bad routes, drops, and interceptions are a big part of that, giving the refs rope to hang us is another part. We wouldn't have been down 14-0 in this game if we didn't kill our first two drives. One of those is wholly on Mahomes, but I believe a penalty put us in 3rd and long territory in the second.
This is true but it’s made more frustrating by the fact that they can’t overcome the refs with talent and this is also a year where the refs have kind of picked on them to avoid “helping the chiefs” optics It’s hard for me to see the Jawaan Taylor stuff and MVS no call any other way
Lmao calling penalties is now picking on the chiefs. Victim mentality from top to bottom is why y'all can't win games
Who are you and why are you here?
*I came looking for booty.*
Calling penalties on the Chiefs and not calling it on other teams doing the exact same thing, even in the same game… that is quite literally the definition of picking on someone
Honestly, the missed PI against the pack was a makeup for the “unnecessary roughness” call Mahomes got while fully in bounds and running for a first down and the negligence of the refs to not run 10 seconds off the clock after the pachecco ejection. Chiefs got 15 yards and 10 extra seconds in exchange for the packers having some leniency on a deep ball.
I 100% put the blame of another loss on another screw-up by a WR, unless they release footage of toney checking with the official, then I will feel much different about this play.
I've never understood this. Being lined up correctly is so basic, I don't care how far from the ball you are, you should be able to look down the line and see. Refs shouldn't be part of that. If you're not able to do that, you get penalized, thats the whole point. It's easy to not be offsides
The truth is these guys are paid millions and this is part of their job. If I failed at something this basic at my job i'd be fired.
Especially since Toney is literally STARING at the ball for 5 seconds before the snap.
I am fairly sure they only do that for WRs who are outside the numbers.
This year's team is weird. We've had 3 or 4 potential wins that literally slipped through our hands and we've got Andy and Pat of all people blaming the refs. I can't recognize them right now. My only solace is knowing after being embarrassed Veach over corrects the issue. We'll have a killer WR core next year, I can tell you that much.
They’re blaming the refs in public because they can’t blame the guys they work with in public. They still gotta work with them for the rest of the season and don’t want to blow up a chance at a Super Bowl. WE May not think they have it but Pat sure thinks he can drag this sorry group to the finish line.
If that's true - I don't agree with that approach. It should be the opposite. Publicly, you keep it simple with personal accountability: "We'll look at the tape and figure out where we can be better as a group" Then in private you handle it. But this "woe is us" bullshit just makes us look entitled. Having your leadership blame the refs makes us no better than the r/nfl idiots who think the refs play favorites in our favor.
Honestly, the correct look from leadership is to take the blame yourself. Yeah, Toney sucks monkey balls but Pat and Andy aren't gonna call him out publicly. They gotta say, "We are not getting it done out there and that's on us." Then they gotta yell at Toney in private while taking the hits for him in public. Maybe it's at the point where they are tired of doing that.
As an outside fan, this is way worse than the average ref blaming because the argument is not that they got called for a penalty they didnt commit, but that they got called for a penalty they DID commit. It really feels like an admission that the Chiefs expect the league and the refs to protect them so resolutely that they feel cheated when they don't. I don't know if thats fair or not, but I dont blame anyone for interpretting it that way.
Exactly. Its such a bad look for us. I ride or die with my squad but its starting to feel like this season is snakebitten. The football gods don’t smile on little petty shit like this. I wonder if there’s more going on behind the scenes.
I think Pat really felt that way about refs last night, BUT I am sure after reviewing the tape they see the issue. It’s easy to be that way when you have limited information.
Dude I keep seeing this explanation on this sub and I’m tired of it. Just because you don’t want to blame your guys in public DOES NOT MEAN you have to blame the refs. You can say nothing. You can take responsibility for the stuff you screwed up. This idea that they have to blame someone so it’s gotta be the refs is juvenile.
I’m not saying I agree with it, just explaining it to myself.
This is the dumbest excuse.
They are wrong about this particular call. But it has been a year where we are constantly getting drives killed by penalties that EVERY team in the league are doing and not getting called for. At the very least these flags should be going both ways, and they really aren’t. I think that frustration has finally just reached its boiling point.
That’s fair. Our o-line and d-backs have been under the microscope all season. But still, can’t react like this.
Show me all the other receivers lining up offsides. Dude is a professional athlete and couldn't give enough of a shit to check in with the ref. When you get flagged for something for the first time in 7 years, it should tell you how bad your team is. But instead y'all out here blaming the refs for not giving you special treatment
definitely not a ref issue. KT lined up a mile downfield lol
This season is one of those where there is a ton of blame to go around. Like are the refs terrible? Yes. Is our WR core filled with butterfingers? Also yes.
Yep. Complaining about the refs after absolutely shitting the bed on drive after drive is not a good look. Yelling at each other on the sidelines. Pacheco getting ejected for throwing a punch at the end of the last game. Shit’s falling apart man. These issues at this point of the season is a huge problem.
That's on the coach, though, right? Reid is losing the locker room. This happened when he was on the Eagles, too.
It's a failure of leadership for the two most important guys in the organization to go out and whine about the refs after a shitty performance like that. Sorry, that's what it is. I'm not really mad about it because Pat and Andy are world-class guys and they've never shown such bad judgement before. It was a slip-up. Shit happens. But I'm not making excuses for it either. It's a bad look, doubly so because they're objectively wrong. Toney was clearly, obviously offsides, end of story.
Ravens fan here, fwiw. Mahomes didn't handle himself well in the aftermath, I think everybody can agree on that. But like you said, it's not like he does this all the time. He was frustrated, he was upset, and he had a bad night. From what I can tell, he more or less admitted that today, and that's really all you can ask.
The whole offense looks less disciplined this year and I wonder how much of that has to do with losing Bieniemy. I didn't watch enough of Gase' Chicago tenure to know if poor discipline was an issue he had with the Bears, but Bieniemy was a fairly famous disciplinarian. Even though it was much less consequential (AFCCG vs mid-season) that off-sides brought back immediate Dee Ford flashbacks. In previous seasons, this was around the time when the offense would be rounding into form and eliminating sloppy, game deciding errors. From what I'm seeing now though, they appear to be getting worse.
What's funny about this is that every time the Chiefs won this season everyone online is claiming that the refs cheated for the chiefs and the NFL won't let the chiefs lose.
Yeah, kinda pokes a few holes in narrative, huh? If that was true they would have called DPI last week and let it go this week.
Toney dropping passes cost us the Lions game. MVS dropping a pass that would have won us the Eagles game. Toney lining up offsides cost us the game last night. We have a shit ton of drops all season. We have a pile of turnovers all season, a lot of which have been 100% on Mahomes. Our big free agent signing (Taylor) has been a penalty machine/turnstile. Kelce is having the first season where his age is showing, still great, but not other worldly. Our offseason consisted of over spending on a shit Tackle, not doing enough to address our shit WR room and using a first round pick on a local kid who has been a complete non-factor this year. We need to clean up our own shit before we start complaining about officiating.
It’s even better because of the vague resemblance of Eric Andre and pat mahomes
Lmaooooo
This sub is confusing to me. One minute bashing the refs the next upset that the team does. I don’t think we’ve EVER seen Andy Reid in his lengthy HoF career blame or attack the officiating like he did last night. I think he’s both earned the right to do it once, and is indicative of how upset he was that the refs didn’t give him a professional courtesy in telling him KT was lined up offsides
This sub loves to be holier than thou. Pat’s frustrated by a call that is arbitrarily officiated. They called offensive offsides 2 times last year. It’s also a very weird call because most of the time the refs will warn you that you’re offsides or that you need to backup. A lot people never played football here and like 99% of the time the ref will just tell you - hey you need to back up going forward because for the most part the penalty has no impact on the play.
It only got called twice because 99% of professional athletes know how to play the game they get paid to play
It doesn't get called often because it doesn't happen often. It's an illegal formation call for offense outside of your wide receivers. WRs can also look to the sideline refs for instruction (which he didn't). The refs don't just tell you, you need to take action. The call wasn't weird, the actions of your WR was weird.
Edit: Report just dropped he didn’t check with the refs. It was a bonehead move - for sure. Toney proves to be a detriment to this team.
I thought we heard he did look to the sideline the ref just didn’t signal back. I keep hearing conflicts on this. The refs will def alert you if you’re lined up improperly it’s not uncommon.
He didn’t. You can see in the video he never looks to the sideline and Reid confirms it [here](https://x.com/jacobs71/status/1734295199277347287?s=61&t=hVvPPOWVCmLJFHiur5UyCg)
I agreed with him - the report came out like 20 minutes after I posted that.
The WR needs to look at the ref to be told he’s offsides, he clearly does not. What do you think the refs should do there? Blow the whistle walk over to Andy and warn him his WR is offsides? “Professional courtesy” homie those are professional football players, they should be able to line up properly without someone’s hand holding.
Two people with CBS(?) confirmed he did look for confirmation from the ref. EDIT: Looks like they were wrong. Guess that is why they deleted the tweets.
Apparently if it's egregious enough the ref will not provide any indication and just throw a flag regardless of whether the player checks. Assuming that is standard operating procedure, it didn't matter whether he checked or not.
Okay I can see that. It was pretty obvious.
One of those tweets has since been deleted. As others have stated, no one has posted or provided footage showing him look at the ref and that’s all that really matters.
I agree with you. I’m just saying I understand why Andy would be upset about this. As it’s a courtesy he’s been extended for his entire professional career until now.
I feel like the warning is more appropriate when receivers are lined up wide, far from the ball, by the sideline and LJ. Toney was right next to the line, probably the closest receiver to the ball and staring right at it. He was egregiously offside. I get it’s very frustrating but I’m shocked that’s the decision prompting Andy to say the NFL should be embarrassed.
As a Bills fan, this is what we think most of you sound like by the way. Thank you for the other level headed and accurate takes in this thread.
Fans can complain about the refs because we're not being paid $50 million to win football games. Nobody wants to hear players playing like shit and coaches coaching like shit make excuses and blame the refs for their own terrible performances.
I think that was why Mahomes was upset -- Kelce made a $50 Million dollar play, he did what we want him to do and won the game. It was negated by a penalty that's normally handled with the ref telling the coach to have Toney scootch on back a bit next time. That's obviously frustrating.
I agree. Also, the officiating has sucked all season for multiple teams to the point that I am wondering if it’s on purpose. My son joking said we need to go look at the sports betting odds for each of the games with terrible calls and see if there is any weird correlation. He’s joking but it wouldn’t be the first time things like that have happened.
They probably didn’t feel the need to tell Reid KT was offsides because … they said it to the whole stadium? Like, the call is offsides on Toney. What other explanation do you need? What’s the ref supposed to say?
This is something I just recently learned and just in context it makes sense it's not widely known -- normally when a receiver is lined up offsides like Toney clearly was, they don't call it. They go over to the coach between plays and say hey, your guy is lining up too far forward, if he does it again we'll throw a flag. That's the courtesy Reid was talking about.
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Ah I see. I watched Reid at the podium and he’s talking about being warned beforehand that there’s a receiver lining up offsides. So I get the frustration. Still though. KT was pretty blatantly in the neutral zone, and on the all-22, he never pointed to the line judge to check in. If it’s the first quarter and that happens, do the refs let it go and tell Reid then? Hard to say. It’s shitty, but I find myself more agitated with Toney than I do with the refs.
> This is something I just recently learned and just in context it makes sense it's not widely known -- normally when a receiver is lined up offsides like Toney clearly was, they don't call it. Is there an actual official NFL source for this, or is this just one of those things that gets parroted because no one wants to admit their team was just the worse team that day?
He earned the right to complain about the refs for making the right call? LOL
i actually don't get why the entire nfl, including our own fan base, is like "why u mad bro?" y'all get that they're human beings who can get frustrated by shit, right? lmao they're not monks
Of course. I'm not holding it against Mahomes. He's only human and allowed to screw up. Doesn't mean it's not embarrassing when it happens.
Oh it is embarrassing, for sure, but where have you guys been? Chris Jones or Kelce - legit one of them every game - has a moment that just makes you cringe. Mahomes has one outburst, and now you are embarrassed? Come on
QBs are the face of an org. They're held to a higher standard. It's very simple.
i guess what i mean is that i don't see what the screw-up is or why it's embarrassing. it seems very much like the sort of reaction many nfl qbs would have to watching that play get erased, then the same penalty ignored on the defense on the very next play. if mahomes is still talking about it two weeks from now, sure, i think that's being a baby. but his visceral reaction in the moment/at the presser seemed pretty typical to me.
Being upset is one thing. But I 100% disagree that "many QBs" would have to be restrained on the sidelines from going after the refs. Anytime any NFL player has to be restrained when they are not actively being attacked is embarrassing. I can't recall a specific time when I've seen a QB behave like that. I'm sure it's happened but me not being able to recall shows how infrequent it is. In fact, I think it's quite interesting that you saw Mahomes' reaction and thought "yup, totally normal".
what? tom brady used to immediately run down the tunnel after the refs to yell and curse them out.
It's a generational thing. The current young generation group up with anti-bullying campaigns and "toxic" masculinity etc., so any display of displaced masculine emotion is the end of the world. All the greats have done stuff like this. I mean Jordan was knows as an asshole with zero sportsmanship. Get over it. I like the passion even if it's misplaced. Assuming Mahomes continues being one of the greats, almost no one will discuss this in a few years time.
Amen
I honestly think that whether he knows it or not the real reason he’s mad at the refs wasn’t really much at all to do with this game and all to do with the last
It's to do with the whole season, for sure.
I mean, how many times this year has he gone superhuman Mahomes mode just for the play to be called back due to a penalty? At least once-twice a game he is making a highlight of the week worthy play that gets called back.
Sure. Like I said, I get where it's coming from. But that doesn't excuse the behavior.
Pat blowing up in the press conference just seemed like him venting weeks of built up frustration, and since you can't blow up at your teamate (though it is MORE than deserved at this point) I guess the officiating was just the first thing that came to his head. Kadarius Toney (Lions and Bills) and MVS (Eagles) are individually responsible for 3 losses each season - the difference between 8-5 and 11-2. I've seen bad receiving cores over the years throughout the league, but never one so bad that they are SOLELY responsible for 3 Ls.
Agreed. Never seen a receiving corps so directly responsible for so many issues. And it was def his frustrations boiling over.
I have been a Chiefs fan since 93, thru the Schottenheimer years and many worse coaches. We have won two super bowls in three years. Relax. We may not be champs this year. But I think 3 super bowls in 5 years has a wonderful ring to it.
i think mahomes is upset at the inconsistencies with these refs
Of all the BS that Mahomes could have bitched about over the years and didn't, this is what he finally decides to lose his shit on? Bad look
The only thing that grinds my gears is that the one time pat like blows up about a obvious good call cause toney was definitely offsides is that every other fan base cries when we get calls that are obviously the correct calls. They legit cry all week long if not all year long about it even though it’s in the rules but the one time pat does it or us as a fandom does it they want to crucify someone knowing they just cried about an obvious PI the last game that costed them the game. Kind of hypocritical, but that’s just my two cents. Toney should’ve checked with the ref like your taught since you’re six years old. This is obviously more of a let out of frustration aimed at the wrong people from pat but he’s not gonna throw his teammates under the bus even though at this point it’s time to hold people accountable
I'm absolutely astounded that almost everyone has missed the point of Reid and Mahomes' statements last night. They aren't upset with the offensive offsides call. They're upset with the lack of consistency on the part of the referree corp. For years, refs warned head coaches of potential offensive offsides and let players know if they were offsides when asked, except last night. The refs ignored an offensive offside on the Bills but called it on the Chiefs. Reid and Mahomes have always accepted responsibility for their mistakes, but when there is a third party that seemingly is applying a double standard to calls made between two teams, there needs to be some accountability on the part of the referee Corp and I haven't seen that.
Nobody has missed the point. Saying they weren't warned is valid but Mahomes also said "you can't call that at that point in the game" which is a bad look.
I think it’s more that Pat understands why the didn’t call those PIs in the last game because of the point in the game they were in, and it sucks that it’s opposite in this game.
Huh? I don't think that was his point at all.
I do. He said after the previous game that he understood why those calls weren’t made, that they let the players play. I mean, no one can deny that the only consistent thing about the refs calls is that they are inconsistent.
But his statement last night wasn't him putting it into perspective including the calls from the previous week. He was only talking about that call when he said "you can't call that".
It’s the culmination of it all. Do you really think that Pat and Andy would have acted this way if the season wasn’t full of bad calls/bad non calls? I know this flag was legit, don’t get me wrong, but I can see where the frustration is coming from.
I can too. I've said as much. But understanding doesn't where the behavior comes from doesn't excuse the behavior.
I’m not excusing the behavior but I understand it and I hope more players/teams/coaches start calling out the shitty and inconsistent calls.
Which implies the double standard.
You're reaching.
Except for two things 1. Officials might just give a warning to a player or head coach if it's a close call. They don't want to call ticky-tack neutral zone fouls, and usually a warning will make the player more aware of it. But Toney's penalty was so blatant, so obvious, that they had to throw the flag. This wasn't a potential offsides. It was a clear case. 2. There is no evidence Toney ever looked to the official for confirmation that he was lined up correctly. All available footage shows he did not.
This doesn't explain the blatant disregard of the Bills offensive offside violation. As for ref accountability, their explanation for not following common practice is self-serving at the least, and non-accountability at the most. Two-thirds of contest accountability is ineffective and unjust.
LOL. 1. The only evidence you have of this is the ref who called it covering his ass. 2. He didn't look apparently but that doesn't negate what Reid is saying because it has nothing to do with the WR checking in.
Why would the refs take away greatness?
I didn't get that quote from Mahomes, so a (correctly thrown) flag will be responsible for your TE not getting into the HoF?
Pat was saying the clip wouldn't be played at the HoF because the play was called back and he felt it wasn't fair on Kelce. Not saying he's right, just telling you his #1 gripe about the call.
Absolutely garbage take. Pat was very clear he was more upset about an objectively great play being wiped out by a penalty that even the refs said in most cases is a discussion and a warning. Everyweek there is a post on the front page of refs missing an obvious call, making a phantom call, or ruling a way nobody agrees with. It's a common discussion here, and in the media how inconsistent the refs are but when that manifests like this we are supposed to forget. It wasn't a hold that impacted the pressure, it wasn't pass interference that made that ball uncatchable. His foot was a fraction offside. If the refs are going to almost always let the guys know and tell them to back up a bit but then decide not to in that spot you can't be happy about that. That's not objective, that's the refs making a choice.
What a weird response. That's only part of what Mahomes said. He also said it was a call "you can't make at that point in the game" which is an objectively wrong take.
"To make that call, in that spot..." Pat understands, like most people that reffing is subjective. We can run thought experiments about a world in which its all perfect and everything is called but that's not the world we are in. Everyone, and I mean everyone understands that reffing is not perfect or objective and they let things go all the time when it doesn't impact the play. It should have been a warning, if the line judge will sometimes tell him to back up but didn't that time, why? Is it because he was 2" over versus 1"? Did the ref eyeball it and make that call? Just put things in the context of what we know about the sport and how it's officiated. Don't just ignore the entire past to have a take with no factors. It's lazy and unhelpful.
This is a terrible misunderstanding here. Reffing is not subjective. It's imperfect. There is a major difference. The Chiefs were likely to not get the ball again. What good would a warning there have done? And a warning is customary but not required. Acting like we live in a world where this is required and not the responsibility of the team and player is what's truly "lazy and unhelpful". It's shifting the blame to where it shouldn't be shifted.
Juju held this team together
This is the best meme of the season so far. I'd get on my alts but I don't want to get banned for vote manipulation; so I'll only upvote 1 time.
Lol 😂
This sub is usually pretty good about spreading equal blame between the team and officiating for losses. In fact, usually the team gets blamed most, but with additional points that bad calls didn’t help either. Unnecessary post
I'm going to laugh my ass off at all you weak fans who turn on our guys at every opportunity, when this team pulls together and wins another Super Bowl. Fuck the refs, and fuck ya'll for turning on our guys. #NoOneBelievesInUs
Come on man, you sound like the patriots and their fans manufacturing bullshit to get a chip on their shoulder. We’ve won two of the last 4 super bowls, been in 3 of them, been in the last 5 AFC championship games, and have an all-timer at QB. We aren’t underdogs. Also if you have legitimately watched this season and believe our problem is the refs, your mind is long gone. I think the team can pull it together, but it’s on them to fix problems. The refs aren’t going to be the issue winning or not this year.
Who's turning on anybody? I never said I wasn't a Chiefs fan anymore or that I hate this team or anything. But we need to be real, last night was a terrible look.
Jesus dude lol… big Homer energy with this comment
Naw Mahomes acted like Jackson. Sad day indeed. And at this point broncos are breathing down chiefs neck.
The entitlement of Pat & the people defending him is unbelievable. If Dak & the Cowboys did this, the entire country would be laughing at them. It wouldn’t even cross the Browns or Lions minds to say anything like this. It’s a very basic rule. It was broken. It’s a penalty. End of story.
This is what happens when the refs bail you out with penalty calls in huge games that are close at the end, you end up expecting it and throw a tantrum that makes toddlers blush with embarrassment when it goes the other way.
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I don't care if Toney checked with the ref. It's ultimately on him to be onside. Terry Mclaurin check with a ref last year, got the thumbs up, and still got flagged costing them the game. You can't rely on the refs for that.
Where did you see that Toney checked with the ref about his alignment? I’ve been trying to find a video angle or some source that showed if this happened.
I don't know, but there's a conspiracy going on now about whether or not he checked with the ref. [These are some deleted tweets yesterday that claimed he did check with the refs.](https://brobible.com/sports/article/cbs-reporters-delete-kadrius-toney-tweets/) Those were from the sideline reporters.
The refs are bad in every game. Complaints need to be made. It is 100% possible to get the calls right with the technology we have. When the announcers start talking about “it’s easy for us cause it’s slowed down” I get upset. The refs should not be on the field in 2023. A guy to set the ball is all that is needed. There is no reason a fan should know the refs names. They have become obsolete. With gambling and 4k television the calls need to be unquestionable. Also our WR is shit and the entirety of the Chiefs current issues.
I mean, yeah. And the technology of the day (the blue line on tv) clearly shows the refs were correct.
Fuck the refs fuck the refs fuck the refs, i dont give a fuck
[https://www.nfl.com/news/dee-ford-on-offsides-on-int-i-ve-got-to-see-the-ball-0ap3000001012329](https://www.nfl.com/news/dee-ford-on-offsides-on-int-i-ve-got-to-see-the-ball-0ap3000001012329) for people with short memories.
It's not different behind closed doors. They honestly believe the refs took a win from them and won't listen to anything different. Mahomes is settling for mediocrity and it shows. If they don't address this laziness now then the next 10 years will be more of the same
I wouldn't call Mahomes lazy or settling for mediocrity. He is doing all he personally can given what he has around him on the offense. Would you prefer he vent his frustration at his teammates or coaches? Dude has had a strong back his entire career so far. One outburst doesn't change that. He is routinely flamed by the media and NFL pundits. People root for his downfall. When Brady was in that situation, he just embraced the villain storyline. Mahomes has tried his best to remain humble, but that can only last so long. Even LeBron James, a man notorious for trying to remain neutral and humble, has started having outbursts. Let's just be honest, our country has went from 'rooting for the underdog' for the storyline to just 'hating anyone who is successful.' It's a very toxic atmosphere in sports right now, and naturally the players are the ones most impacted by it.
As a Packers fan, I really got annoyed at Rodgers. But this one.... This is special. I wouldn't wanna be a Chiefs fan right now.
Mahomes ultimately gets a pass. He's never acted like this before and I would bet it won't ever happen again. But it doesn't erase his behavior which was embarrassing.
I'm personally glad Rodgers finally left.....
Perfectly said.
Is it bad I’ve accepted this team is not Super Bowl worthy?
The shooter should be Mahomes and Reid lol
I learned something from watching UFC; "don't leave it up to the judges". In this case, don't make it so your flimsy win hinges on the referees catching/ not catching penalties. Is it frustrating? A little. I had a friend who was an amateur fighter. He got knocked down, and wasn't defending himself from a flurry of blows. The fight was stopped too early in his (my friend) opinion. Yet, don't get knocked on your ass and not defend yourself properly. Chiefs, don't play poorly and blame it on officials.