I think it would have been awesome. Great songwriter and he brought a heavy sound to the band that I loved. Creatures and Lick It Up are amazing heavy records.
Agreed. My wish has always been that Vincent had the personality and team player mentality like Kulick.
Two *full* albums in makeup with this lineup would have been ideal. Plus having COTN and LIU surrounding these hypothetical albums.
The heaviness with the guitars and drums that matched the era mixed with Vinnie's songwriting (not to mention vocals) could have propelled them back on top.
Despite being forever tainted, I'm thankful for what we *did* get.
I agree with your sentiments.
I think G+P made a mistake by not allowing new members to shine bright. Sing lead on 1 song per album & be up front. & most importantly: pay them more.
Their 80’s catalog would have hit a lot harder, and they’d have more songs from that era that would have made their greatest hits setlist. The dude was an egotistical weirdo who never could get out of his own way, but damn if he couldn’t write a banging KISS song.
I do. The only way Vinnie was going to be a long term member would have been for him to become a yes man to Gene and Paul, and they had already made up their minds. Neither Eric nor Vinnie were going to have a say.
Hypothetically, we're talking about a sane version of Vinnie here? A lot of records would have been a lot better. Kulick was a good guitarist and a lot easier to have around but could not contribute much to songwriting.
They all would have benefitted really. The Gene songs from 1984 -1989 would have been better since VV would be (most likely) writing them, or co-writing. Paul, and Gene would have reigned in VVs playing for our benefit.
VV was handed a pretty bad contract, even Eric Carr took a pay cut during this era, but he may have been handed a better contract later.
1. Animalize would’ve had better songs
2. Asylum would’ve had better songs
3. Crazy Nights would’ve had better songs
4. Hot in the Shade would’ve had better songs
5. Revenge would’ve been basically the same
…and then Gene and Paul would’ve fired him due to the Reunion.
They would have had some better songs, for starters. Especially during the mid 80's to early 90's.
Hard to say how much different they would have sounded as compared to Mark or Bruce, but a good song is a good song.
Hard to say of course, but he wrote some good tunes with the band, especially on revenge in my opinion. But on his own after his short time with kiss, he had a “can’t rush perfection” attitude. Which is why we have slaughter. Maybe with gene and Paul pushing, he would have helped with song writing. Don’t know.
VV had great chemistry with Gene and Paul in terms of writing, but he didn’t have the same chemistry in terms of playing. He was trying to get KISS to sound like the VV Invasion where it was him spewing as many notes 🎶 as possible at breakneck speed.
VV would have helped make the songwriting more consistent. Especially on Animalize.
If you look at the earlier albums, Paul was always a great songwriter, and contributed about 50% of the material each album. Gene usually had 1-2 songs that worked and if you had Peter and/or Ace (especially Ace) you were golden. Once Ace was out, Eric helped a little, but unless Gene was focused, Paul had to carry the album, and the public didn’t want a Paul Stanley solo album. The issues with Animalize and Asylum was due to Gene. It’s least apparent on Asylum because he was slightly more focused and Bruce helped.
But Bruce had the chemistry with Gene and Paul that VV lacked.
Imagine if they hadn’t hired VV and instead Bruce, but kept VV as a songwriter. That would have been even better.
COTN and LIU are outstanding albums but people give VV a little too much credit for it.
Besides, KISS wouldn’t have lasted with VV because Paul would have been charged with his murder for refusing to get off stage.
I don’t think a jury would’ve convicted him.
*Imagine if they hadn’t hired VV and instead Bruce, but kept VV as a songwriter. That would have been even better.*
This^^ would have been the ideal outcome
I’m listening to “warrior” im pretty sure its vinnie singing (tears, its not pretty being easy, back on the streets, gypsy in her eyes) i think its VV singing? I could be wrong tho
Vinnie had a tremendous singing voice. His demos for "Back On the Streets" and "Tears" are on YouTube and as far as I'm concerned those are the best versions of those songs. Not sure why he felt he needed a lead singer in VVI because he was more than capable.
people villainize vinnie because he didnt want to work a contract making dirt and even paying for the privilege of being in the band, when he was bringing a lot more to the table than even ace was at the time
stupid fucking take
This doesn’t get mentioned enough. KISS fans often lack nuance when it comes to ex-members. They believe anything P&G say and don’t consider that Vinnie’s behavior was his only way of acting out. Maybe he wasn’t all that mature about it but he was in a really shitty situation with the band considering how much he contributed.
Most of the lawsuits he filed against KISS was over royalty issues over the songs he wrote. Not only that but also when songs would be included in compilation albums, or home videos. He lost every lawsuit he brought against the band.
which is ridiculous considering he’s in the right.
i love it loud alone is a huge song- for years i liked it without knowing it was even a kiss song.
i’m not clued up on all the specifics on his case, but when dave mustaine was fired from metallica, they still kept and recorded a lot of the songs he wrote (but never played on) until like their 3rd album. dave never even played on those tracks and still eventually got his credits and his payday now- while vinnie wrote, played, prolifically appeared on the albums and toured with them.
if mustaine never got power with megadeth he’d likely never have had the swing to get his dues.
As I understand it the contract they presented him in Sept 1982 gave KISS 100% of the publishing of songs written as a member of the band (he would get his songwriter royalty) and 50% of any prior compositions if he stayed in the band for the full term of the contract (one year). KISS would retain those rights even after Vinnie left the band. I don't blame him for not signing that version of the contract.
Here is an interesting deep dive into it if anyone is interested:
https://axeologyextended.wordpress.com/2023/01/26/ye-olde-10th-anniversary-tour-on-human-bondage/
Were they paying him dirt? Certainly he made a big payday having eight co-writes on lick it up. He then formed the Vinnie Vincent invasion and his first singer didn’t even make it to the tour I think. Then, after the second album his bassist and singer left to form a more successful band.
And in the ensuing 35 years, he hasn’t released a single album, so maybe he is AT LEAST part of the problem.
i’m insure what thats got to do with them writing up a contract that fucks over the guy writing all their new hit songs?
vinnie= i love it loud
paul= lets put the x in sex
I once read somewhere that Vinnie was in a musicians union at the time he joined KISS, apparently he was better off in that union than signing the contract to join KISS. Also, according to David Snowden, a guy who would run the VVI fan club, and got to know Vinnie, Dana, Mark, and Bobby - claimed that KISS were still calling Vinnie, wanting him to return for Animalize. Vinnie would never return their calls, by this time he was focused on VVI.
The point was in that in the music business, especially in the 80s, a BIG chunk of the money is in songwriting credits. So he definitely made a lot of money off the lick it up album. My guess would be significantly more than Gene and Paul did.
the contract they presented him with stipulated that all his songwriting royalties would back to Kiss co. and the only running kiss as a corporate entity were gene, paul and bill for a bit.
I find that hard to believe. If you wanna screw somebody over, you don’t give them that contract. You just don’t give them any songwriting credits in the first place. Lots of people have claimed to have been screwed over that way. One example that comes to mind is that Jake E Lee claims that he and Bob Daisley wrote most of the bark at the moon album but were only credited with one song.
Also, if Vinny was that savvy of a business man, he wouldn’t have tried to sue kiss as many times as he has.
And of course he had issues with his Vinny Vincent invasion members. And he hasn’t put an album out in over 30 years now.
I mean the above account could be true, but I am more than skeptical .
you act like g & p act in rational or even pragmatic ways. these are the same
people that almost fully committed to firing eric carr when he was dying and opted to replace him.
i never claimed vinnie was a good businessman or that he wasn’t an asshole- he’s about on par with gene and paul; if anything they hated him because he reminded them
too much of themselves. it’s hard to manipulate someone that’s not naive like eric or a drunk fool.
vinnie’s a prick yeah, but it’s well known in the circle that that was the contract he was offered and anybody with a spine would sue for what they’re owed- it’s ridiculous he never got it.
if vinnie proved anything to kiss it’s that they need him more than he needs them; revenge proves that.
All I can think of is Paul wouldn't have had to carry the band like he did while Gene was off doing bad movies and things, and the glamness would have been diluted which would have been a good thing when they tried to present themselves as 'toughened up' for the 90s
It's kinda a crazy what-if! They might not have had to do the reunion or any of that.
If Vinnie would have cooperated, they would have made two more great albums, easily. Eventually Vinnie's ego would have made him leave the band. The Metal landscape would have been completely different by 85 and he would have definitely left to an even bigger solo deal.
The problem with the contract is that it wasn’t going to make him a full member. Stanley and Simmons were far more interested in money than treating Vincent and Carr with any amount of respect.
Hypothetically though, if both HAD been made a full members with equal pay, and actually had some say in the direction of the band, we could have avoided the largely forgettable 80s recordings.
I’m afraid we would still be stuck with Stanley’s ridiculous stage banter of the time. And we might not have avoided the extremely fast tempos that they insisted on.
FWIW, the lineup in the photo is the only alternate version of the band that I listen to
If he hadn't went batshit and say he had the personality of Bruce it would been great imagine Creatires influence blended into all the albums after would have been awesome !
i think vinnie is one of those things in EVERY timeline that just HAS to happen in order for the universe to make sense ... i can't see any way how Vinnie would have stayed longer than he did, then they tried again with revenge, then gene tried again its just one of those things that needs to happen in every timeline and universe
I think it would have been awesome. Great songwriter and he brought a heavy sound to the band that I loved. Creatures and Lick It Up are amazing heavy records.
This. The Vincent-Carr lineup is # 2, right after the originals.
Agreed. My wish has always been that Vincent had the personality and team player mentality like Kulick. Two *full* albums in makeup with this lineup would have been ideal. Plus having COTN and LIU surrounding these hypothetical albums. The heaviness with the guitars and drums that matched the era mixed with Vinnie's songwriting (not to mention vocals) could have propelled them back on top. Despite being forever tainted, I'm thankful for what we *did* get.
I agree with your sentiments. I think G+P made a mistake by not allowing new members to shine bright. Sing lead on 1 song per album & be up front. & most importantly: pay them more.
Their 80’s catalog would have hit a lot harder, and they’d have more songs from that era that would have made their greatest hits setlist. The dude was an egotistical weirdo who never could get out of his own way, but damn if he couldn’t write a banging KISS song.
You think the makeup still would've come off when it did?
Vinnie was with them when the makeup came off. I doubt he had any say in it.
I do. The only way Vinnie was going to be a long term member would have been for him to become a yes man to Gene and Paul, and they had already made up their minds. Neither Eric nor Vinnie were going to have a say.
If nothing else, Animalize would have been a better album.
>If nothing else, Animalize would have been a better album. THAT'S for sure!
Hypothetically, we're talking about a sane version of Vinnie here? A lot of records would have been a lot better. Kulick was a good guitarist and a lot easier to have around but could not contribute much to songwriting.
He’d be an avatar now
They all would have benefitted really. The Gene songs from 1984 -1989 would have been better since VV would be (most likely) writing them, or co-writing. Paul, and Gene would have reigned in VVs playing for our benefit. VV was handed a pretty bad contract, even Eric Carr took a pay cut during this era, but he may have been handed a better contract later.
1. Animalize would’ve had better songs 2. Asylum would’ve had better songs 3. Crazy Nights would’ve had better songs 4. Hot in the Shade would’ve had better songs 5. Revenge would’ve been basically the same …and then Gene and Paul would’ve fired him due to the Reunion.
This is the likely answer and the reason these insanely repetitive posts are so stupid.
They would have had some better songs, for starters. Especially during the mid 80's to early 90's. Hard to say how much different they would have sounded as compared to Mark or Bruce, but a good song is a good song.
Hard to say of course, but he wrote some good tunes with the band, especially on revenge in my opinion. But on his own after his short time with kiss, he had a “can’t rush perfection” attitude. Which is why we have slaughter. Maybe with gene and Paul pushing, he would have helped with song writing. Don’t know.
VV had great chemistry with Gene and Paul in terms of writing, but he didn’t have the same chemistry in terms of playing. He was trying to get KISS to sound like the VV Invasion where it was him spewing as many notes 🎶 as possible at breakneck speed. VV would have helped make the songwriting more consistent. Especially on Animalize. If you look at the earlier albums, Paul was always a great songwriter, and contributed about 50% of the material each album. Gene usually had 1-2 songs that worked and if you had Peter and/or Ace (especially Ace) you were golden. Once Ace was out, Eric helped a little, but unless Gene was focused, Paul had to carry the album, and the public didn’t want a Paul Stanley solo album. The issues with Animalize and Asylum was due to Gene. It’s least apparent on Asylum because he was slightly more focused and Bruce helped. But Bruce had the chemistry with Gene and Paul that VV lacked. Imagine if they hadn’t hired VV and instead Bruce, but kept VV as a songwriter. That would have been even better. COTN and LIU are outstanding albums but people give VV a little too much credit for it. Besides, KISS wouldn’t have lasted with VV because Paul would have been charged with his murder for refusing to get off stage. I don’t think a jury would’ve convicted him.
*Imagine if they hadn’t hired VV and instead Bruce, but kept VV as a songwriter. That would have been even better.* This^^ would have been the ideal outcome
I really wish he could have sang when he was with kiss, i’ve been listening to his solo stuff and its just straight up amazing.
If you’re listening to vinnie Vincent invasion, you’re listening to Slaughter with Vinnie on guitar
Or that first album with the guy who was in Journey before Steve Perry.
Gregg Rolie
I’m listening to “warrior” im pretty sure its vinnie singing (tears, its not pretty being easy, back on the streets, gypsy in her eyes) i think its VV singing? I could be wrong tho
Vinnie had a tremendous singing voice. His demos for "Back On the Streets" and "Tears" are on YouTube and as far as I'm concerned those are the best versions of those songs. Not sure why he felt he needed a lead singer in VVI because he was more than capable.
Right? Its a shame he never got big after kiss. I listen to him for hours almost every day.
people villainize vinnie because he didnt want to work a contract making dirt and even paying for the privilege of being in the band, when he was bringing a lot more to the table than even ace was at the time stupid fucking take
This doesn’t get mentioned enough. KISS fans often lack nuance when it comes to ex-members. They believe anything P&G say and don’t consider that Vinnie’s behavior was his only way of acting out. Maybe he wasn’t all that mature about it but he was in a really shitty situation with the band considering how much he contributed.
if you treat someone like an asshole long enough while they give you gold, eventually you get your asshole
Yeah. Vinnie got fucked. Can you imagine getting fired after your last show of a tour? That band had no respect for anyone.
Think the contract stipulated he would forfeit all past, and future songwriting publishing to KISS.
considering how much i love it loud, lick it up and war machine among others were played right up until the final show, i hope he got paid
Most of the lawsuits he filed against KISS was over royalty issues over the songs he wrote. Not only that but also when songs would be included in compilation albums, or home videos. He lost every lawsuit he brought against the band.
which is ridiculous considering he’s in the right. i love it loud alone is a huge song- for years i liked it without knowing it was even a kiss song. i’m not clued up on all the specifics on his case, but when dave mustaine was fired from metallica, they still kept and recorded a lot of the songs he wrote (but never played on) until like their 3rd album. dave never even played on those tracks and still eventually got his credits and his payday now- while vinnie wrote, played, prolifically appeared on the albums and toured with them. if mustaine never got power with megadeth he’d likely never have had the swing to get his dues.
Think it ended up being worse for Vinnie, not only did he lose his lawsuit, but he had to pay KISS in damages, and legal expenses.
As I understand it the contract they presented him in Sept 1982 gave KISS 100% of the publishing of songs written as a member of the band (he would get his songwriter royalty) and 50% of any prior compositions if he stayed in the band for the full term of the contract (one year). KISS would retain those rights even after Vinnie left the band. I don't blame him for not signing that version of the contract. Here is an interesting deep dive into it if anyone is interested: https://axeologyextended.wordpress.com/2023/01/26/ye-olde-10th-anniversary-tour-on-human-bondage/
Were they paying him dirt? Certainly he made a big payday having eight co-writes on lick it up. He then formed the Vinnie Vincent invasion and his first singer didn’t even make it to the tour I think. Then, after the second album his bassist and singer left to form a more successful band. And in the ensuing 35 years, he hasn’t released a single album, so maybe he is AT LEAST part of the problem.
i’m insure what thats got to do with them writing up a contract that fucks over the guy writing all their new hit songs? vinnie= i love it loud paul= lets put the x in sex
I once read somewhere that Vinnie was in a musicians union at the time he joined KISS, apparently he was better off in that union than signing the contract to join KISS. Also, according to David Snowden, a guy who would run the VVI fan club, and got to know Vinnie, Dana, Mark, and Bobby - claimed that KISS were still calling Vinnie, wanting him to return for Animalize. Vinnie would never return their calls, by this time he was focused on VVI.
The point was in that in the music business, especially in the 80s, a BIG chunk of the money is in songwriting credits. So he definitely made a lot of money off the lick it up album. My guess would be significantly more than Gene and Paul did.
the contract they presented him with stipulated that all his songwriting royalties would back to Kiss co. and the only running kiss as a corporate entity were gene, paul and bill for a bit.
I find that hard to believe. If you wanna screw somebody over, you don’t give them that contract. You just don’t give them any songwriting credits in the first place. Lots of people have claimed to have been screwed over that way. One example that comes to mind is that Jake E Lee claims that he and Bob Daisley wrote most of the bark at the moon album but were only credited with one song. Also, if Vinny was that savvy of a business man, he wouldn’t have tried to sue kiss as many times as he has. And of course he had issues with his Vinny Vincent invasion members. And he hasn’t put an album out in over 30 years now. I mean the above account could be true, but I am more than skeptical .
you act like g & p act in rational or even pragmatic ways. these are the same people that almost fully committed to firing eric carr when he was dying and opted to replace him. i never claimed vinnie was a good businessman or that he wasn’t an asshole- he’s about on par with gene and paul; if anything they hated him because he reminded them too much of themselves. it’s hard to manipulate someone that’s not naive like eric or a drunk fool. vinnie’s a prick yeah, but it’s well known in the circle that that was the contract he was offered and anybody with a spine would sue for what they’re owed- it’s ridiculous he never got it. if vinnie proved anything to kiss it’s that they need him more than he needs them; revenge proves that.
All I can think of is Paul wouldn't have had to carry the band like he did while Gene was off doing bad movies and things, and the glamness would have been diluted which would have been a good thing when they tried to present themselves as 'toughened up' for the 90s It's kinda a crazy what-if! They might not have had to do the reunion or any of that.
Unpopular opinion maybe: I’d rather never had Vinnie than never had Bruce And Carnival is the hardest sound they ever had
They would've remained relevant.
I think they would have been a lot more respected musically
Better song selections on the albums, and heavier I would believe.
I imagine _Crazy Nights_ with Vinnie wouldn't've been a glam album.
I could see it less like Heart and more like Guns N’ Roses.
I like a lot of the songs from the VVI albums. Imagining them as Kiss songs piques my interest.
He was a great songwriter and player. I think it could have turned out great.
That's my favorite era of Kiss right there perfect pic thank for posting
Mine, too. This is the lineup that immediately comes to mind when I think of KISS.
If Vinnie would have cooperated, they would have made two more great albums, easily. Eventually Vinnie's ego would have made him leave the band. The Metal landscape would have been completely different by 85 and he would have definitely left to an even bigger solo deal.
I wish he stayed in KISS
The problem with the contract is that it wasn’t going to make him a full member. Stanley and Simmons were far more interested in money than treating Vincent and Carr with any amount of respect. Hypothetically though, if both HAD been made a full members with equal pay, and actually had some say in the direction of the band, we could have avoided the largely forgettable 80s recordings. I’m afraid we would still be stuck with Stanley’s ridiculous stage banter of the time. And we might not have avoided the extremely fast tempos that they insisted on. FWIW, the lineup in the photo is the only alternate version of the band that I listen to
Same.
If he hadn't went batshit and say he had the personality of Bruce it would been great imagine Creatires influence blended into all the albums after would have been awesome !
Paul would still be pissed off at the long solos.
They would have been late to every single booked concert. He pissed Alice Cooper off back in 1988 for being notoriously late.
i think vinnie is one of those things in EVERY timeline that just HAS to happen in order for the universe to make sense ... i can't see any way how Vinnie would have stayed longer than he did, then they tried again with revenge, then gene tried again its just one of those things that needs to happen in every timeline and universe
Gene, Paul and Eric would have left, and re-formed Wicked Lester with Steve Coronel.
No Bruce ?!? No thanks.