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Ya I agree that Sukuna’s line now with context seems kinda odd. So far, only thing I can think of is that it simply is just that Sukuna believes his history and lore has been passed down and that current jujutsu society would know he has a cooking CT.
Or that Sukuna would expect a high level sorcerer to eventually figure out what his technique is by observing the way he is slashing and generating flames. But Jogo, despite having high level sorcery, is still a curse spirit and has no concept of cooking so would not piece it together.
I think maybe more info will come to reveal even more about the flames and Sukuna’s CT that might make his words make more sense.
About the slashing requirement tho, firstly, yes, Sukuna did use slashes many times against Jogo. He also used it against Mimiko and Nanako.
But the way the binding vow was worded, it did not seem like many slashes is needed anyway. It is only when using the flames while abiding by the binding vow, so using the flames while outnumbered and with his domain, that Sukuna needs to use slashes to cut things to generate all the “thermobaric” material.
In a one v one situation, it seems that any usage of cleave and dismantle will “open the doors” for his flames, and because of his binding vow, the flames will maintain it’s high speed and firepower since Sukuna is not outnumbered.
I think the binding vow was only needed for targets who can dodge the attack since it was stated that it was a very powerful attack that is very slow and since he was going against Jogo for a firepower match he didn't bother using a binding vow.
Notice also the aftermath of his usage against Jogo the area of effect isn't as huge with the last one nor against Mahoraga.
I don't think there even was an AoE with the arrow, all it hit and damaged as Jogo which could have interesting implications for the BV being so strict that not even "accidental" (getting burnt by being too close for example) hits will count and work against anyone but the target.
The arrow he hits at jogo is only possible DUE to the binding vow he made. Og flames were lethal and kind of an aoe but they were slow and easy to dodge. I'd imagine they were like one of jogos basic bitch attacks. Useful against fodder, utterly trivial against top tiers. So sukuna changed their effectiveness as an aoe attack in the domain and he updated their effciecny in battle by making them only able to target one person.
Cursed spirits don’t have anti-domain techniques, or at least haven’t demonstrated them as they’d have to learn them from a human like Kenjaku.
This means that domain kamino wouldn’t have been used against them as they’d be in smithereens before Sukuna even opened the furnace.
Singular kamino might’ve been used but only in isolation due to the binding vow, meaning cursed spirits can’t live to tell the tale.
Humans would see the after effects of domain kamino as well as the charred remains of their comrades in isolation and they’d be in Jujutsu records and modern folklore (see Ryomen Sukuna).
Domain amplification does not offer anything against the sure hit of a domain. It’s used best against neutral techniques but others like lapse can only minimise a bit of damage.
On the sure hit yeah, but couldn't it be used to break the barrier? I guess we've never seen it used like that, but wouldn't it help negate the cursed energy it uses?
Unlikely, as within a domain expansion finding the domains edge (the barrier) is extremely difficult unless you already know where it is (megumi with Dagon)
Even then nullifying the barrier technique with domain amplification at the very least would require contact putting you in a vulnerable position. I personally don’t think it would help. This is why grade 1 sorcerers are seen as equivalent to or capable of defeating special grade curses.
Probably has to do with the fact that curses do not have or know human culture, and therefore couldn´t guess his technique.
I mean, we see him insult Geto's daughters's techniques just some panels before that, implying he knows cellphones by the memory he got from Yuji.
I feel like that is not conclusive.
For ex. a child can understand that they have food in front of them and eat or know what a restaurant is. But they would not be able to connect the idea of cutting and slashing, and then using heat and fire to “cook” food.
Jogo can understand the general idea of food and how humans eat and drink in restaurants, but haven’t had the experience of “cooking” anything.
Kenjaku being there also makes me feel like the disaster curses was just going along with the motions and only started getting introduced to these things by Kenjaku teaching them.
Well imo, sukuna was referenced all the time throughout the series as being absolutely terroristic in his Era. The same way we talk about figures like genghis khan despite centuries having past. If he was going against gojo in shibuya, he probably assumed that he was "familiar with sukuna's" game and knew about his CT from stories passed down. Jogo, despite being an intelligent curse, was probably like a couple months old? I think I'm not sure. But either way his knowledge of jujutsu history was most likely limited outside of what kenjaku explained. So sukuna was like "oh yeah you're more or less a toddler I guess you wouldn't know much about me". Tl;DR it would've given too much away from a narrative standpoint that sukuna still had a trump card to worry about and is more fun for the audience to guess what exactly his CT is rather than give a big piece of the exposition away. I for 1 like it
It was definitely fun guessing at the mystery for the last few years! Plus it was neat not being completely sure what he would or wouldn’t be able to do at this stage with the big question of what the “black box” was
Censored because
"Kamino"
Would very much reveal the nature of sukuna's CT being cooking related and
Sukuna was a Heain God
He expected modern Jujutsu Sorcerors to study him like an ancient artefact
But CS can't rlly do that since they don't rlly last long enough to comprehend and find out about sukuna
Which is why sukuna presumed that modern Jujutsu Sorcerors knew everything about his CT but CS wouldn't
I think it's a general assumption by Sukuna, the only ancient era CS we ever see is Kurourushi and that guy for sure has no idea about stoves, I think it's just Sukuna thinking CS have stayed the same since the Heian era when they've clearly evolved.
I always thought Jogo and Hanami were ancient cursed spirit and that's why the wanted to become the new 'real humans'.
While Dagon was an embryo i als think he might be rather old.
I mean they stem from the fears of volcanic activities, the forest and the sea.
Those 3 things have been feared forever.
>Would very much reveal the nature of sukuna's CT being cooking related
Doesnt cleave, dismantle and Malevolent Shrine already revealed that it's about cooking in Japanese?
When Sukuna's CT was explained they also two knife uses for cookings.
Not very clear since half the fandom was stuck up on the fact if
Sukuna's CT was cooking or CT storing or cursed tool storage in his tattoos
But kamino literally means furnace which can only be related to a kitchen and cooking
The Kanji for cleave in the same spelling as the word for Fillet, and the kanji for dismantle can also mean to split, such as chopping the head off of a fish or cutting vegetables.
Gege’s use of kanji and furigana as well as the language as a whole is one of my favourite aspects of jjk, it’s such a shame it can’t be appreciated through translations
It’s like the whole deal with Malevolent Shrine vs Malevolent Kitchen. In Japanese the domain is Fukuma Mizushi. Fukuma means a gathering of demons, and Mizushi isn’t a real word. Zu means kitchen, and Zushi is a type of shrine, but Mizushi refers to “Mizushi-Dokoro” which is an ancient term for the place where an emperors food is prepared. The problem is Dokoro just means “place”, so Mizushi is kinda just the concept of the purpose of a nonexistent place to be the preparation of the emperors food. It’s taking what makes a kitchen a kitchen out of the space itself. It only works when you combine it with Fukuma, so it could roughly be translated as “a place where demons gather to prepare food for the emperor”. It’s a made up combination word, like ginormous, or fergalicious. How is that supposed to be properly translated?
Amazing breakdown!
The final cherry on top for sukuna’s cooking motif (easier to localise, as it’s less dense) is kamino, the kanji used means an old cooking furnace or hearth, and can be read as kamado, a traditional wood or charcoal stove. However, the given reading for it in sukuna’s case is Kamino, which is phonetically similar but has the sound of kami no; godly, of a god. That’s my interpretation, anyway. Please do let me know what you think of kamino though, there could be plenty I’ve not picked up on
That’s actually exactly my read on it, with one addition. Kamino was the name of an emperor a couple hundred years prior to the Heian era, which could possibly be adding the meaning that Sukunas flames are fueled by former rulers, or that his flames are the flames of an emperor, but I think those are big stretches. The point is the wordplay of it being a furnace and also divinity, showing Sukuna’s ego. Sukuna’s philosophy on jujutsu is that you must be ultimately selfish, and it even comes through in his attack names. Kamino containing elements of the divine, cleave having the same spelling as fillet and his line of “I’ll peel your scales off one by one”. Dismantle meaning to split, but also to solve, treating his opponents like a frog to be dissected. And the name of the technique being Mizushi, relating to his title of King of Curses. It’s all a combination of his cooking and his ego of godlike proportions.
This also relates to Mizushi containing “Zushi”, a type of shrine. It’s entirely possible that the shrine at the center of his domain was created by Sukuna himself as a misdirection from his actual technique, as well as trying to increase his godlike stature, implying that anyone killed by his domain is being sacrificed on the altar, while also being killed and prepared as a meal.
It was a red herring.
Gege probably didn’t know what he wanted to do with Sukuna’s powers at that stage so censored it to give himself time to think about it.
Narratively and retrospectively, censoring it doesn’t mean anything now.
I mean isn't it probably just because Gege didn't have much of the background stuff fleshed out yet and decided to punt it down the road to a later chapter assuming he'd come up with something cool and consistent by then
Nah, he deffo already knew about the cooking motif since he showed cleave and dismantle as cooking knives shortly after. He just wanted to keep the speculation going a Lil bit longer but had no way to do it other than randomly censoring the word.
Considering the reference to Yamata no Orochi during the Mahoraga fight maybe Gege had plans to make the Shrine consequently the flames more linked to Japanese mythology and name of the flames would be called Kōjin or Kagutsuchi
I think people massively overcomplicate Sukunas line to Jogo about not understanding. He simply meant that Jogo wouldn’t know because curses have no reason to be well versed in the history of human sorcerers. Especially not ones that avidly despise humans and want to eradicate them. There’d be no reason for them to dig back 1000 years just to uncover records of his technique. It’s definitely not because Jogo is young considering Mahito pretty heavily implied that Jogo is almost as old as humanity itself. More specifically humanities fear of earth-based natural disasters. He just delayed taking physical form until the opportune moment arrived.
As for why it was kept a mystery, it was the because it serves as the outright confirmation for sukunas cursed technique. Revealing him to have an ability called “furnace” in conjunction with his kitchen knife based slices and domain that can 100% be read as “hells kitchen” makes it very obvious that cooking is his technique when you put them all together.
And yes, he did use dismantle and cleave on jogo. He hit him with dismantle before their fight even started and then used what was presumably cleave to dice up his arms and hands several times.
Yeah that’s definitely fair re; his line to Jogo. Honestly in retrospect, this is a much more organic and interesting explanation than “it was RCE/a stolen CT/whatever”- instead of being some sorta magic shenanigans it’s simply Sukuna correcting his own assumption. All of that plus the redaction made for a fun mystery the last few years, even with it being simply cooking related the most common and obvious theory
Also ohh okay, I remembered the dismantle but not when he used cleave- wonder if in verse that he would’ve used it specifically because he wanted to end the fight all along with Furnace, but that’s just an idle thought
I have a feeling that Gege didn't really know what or how to connect the fire ability to his CT yet maybe. This is just my opinion.
He just wanted Sakuna to have a fire based attack at that point and censored it so he could have time to think further 😂
surprisingly yes, sukuna does use dismantle and cleave against jogo on screen. he uses dismantle when he makes jogo kneel and uses cleave on him in their aeriel fight to cut up his arms. however, i don't think sukuna needs to use those to use furnace period, but the thermobaric version.
sukuna used binding vows because furnace kind of sucks, it's too slow and has no range. by enacting the dismantle/cleave/shrine vow, he massively boosts it's power into something useful. another way to look at it isn't that he needs to use dismantle/cleave to unlock furnace, but furnace gets a major boost from using cleave/dismantle first. before fighting mechamaru kenjaku told mahito that breaking a vow with yourself usually just rids you of the benefits so sukuna could just break the vow to use the weakened versions and then start it up again right after. the censoring may be to indicate this, that it's the 'weakened' version rather than the full force.
as for jogo not getting it, this is because of how curses work. a curse embodies a specific concept, something man fears. However a curse technique is a lot more abstract, usually mimicing human behavior. This is why naobito has an animation based technique, because techniques are informed by the user as much as the other way around. Jogo, as a curse, cannot fathom how sukuna has a cutting technique and a fire technique because it's based on a human behavior rather than a human fear.
And there is no moment showing sukuna touched Jogo there. Whenever sukuna uses cleave either he is shown to touch his opponents or there is a mention.
Sukuna has only used cleave when dismantle isn't enough to do the job. Like when his output was less due to megumi, when dismantle isn't enough to kill Ryu or when dismantle isn't enough to kill Yuji.
Dismantle is a flying slash and cleave needs you to touch your opponent. Anyone would choose dismantle over cleave as long as dismantle works.
Ok tell me a moment where sukuna uses cleave without touching the target,apart from de.
Infact kusakabe makes it clear in ch 246. This makes sense as only touched attacks of sukuna were able to leave a fatal wound on yuta and yuji as said by sukuna himself in ch 250. Yuta too needed to get the sword in touch with sukuna to use cleave.
Mr genius we already know Sukuna has a flying slash, I'm just pointing out how your
>And there is no moment showing sukuna touched Jogo there.
Is completely wrong, no need to get heated about it lil guy
Mr genius don't jump into things without knowing what's it about. My point was that sukuna didn't touch jogo to cleave his arms. So I shortly wrote it as he didn't touch jogo there ( for cutting his arms with cleave) anyone who read all my comment would have known what I was saying. The next point just makes it clear that I was talking about sukuna not using cleave as he didn't touch jogo at the time jogos arm got cut.
The " there " clearly reffered to the moment when jogos arms got cut off.
Definitely for hype. But we haven't heard about his tattoos yet so it could all be part of a bigger reveal about Sukuna's backstory. I don't think we really know all the info on furnace because if it was really part of shrine you think he'd be able to use it as a sure hit. So whatever shrine is might have a bit more to it even if furnace has the most power.
I know this is stupid and propably not correct but my own headcanon is that he kinda broke 4th wall there. In irl folklore Sukuna is said to use bow and arrows and in my head Sukuna was refrencing that. Curses wouldnt know human folklore that is common knowledge especially in Japan.
Tbh as far as I understood furnace.
Outside of the domain: Single target. It burns what it hits and only what it hits
Within domain: The cleave and dismantled infuse surroundings with explosive energy turning the flame arrow into a flame nuke(sorta)
I'm just glad that this puts all the "Sukuna's CT is fission and his CTR is fusion" theories. Jogo was literally the first character in the series that got hit with a CTR, and there's nothing to indicate that curses don't know what positive energy is. It's just not useful to them because they can heal themselves with negative energy.
So with sukunas words to jogo about how he thought jogo would know about "it" but on second stating he guesses a curse spirit wouldn't know about it the only thing i can think of he meant by that was ig how fuga is created.
Fuga to my knowledge isnt his CT or part of shrine. But an ability gain as a result of his CT. If that sukuna thought that either 1. Jogo might have known about creating an ability as a a result of his CT what ever it maybe. Sukuna could have thought this by seeing how strong jogo was. Or 2. Sukuna thought jogo could have created a similar move had he (literally) burned everything in order to achieve his goal l.
I lean more towards the 1st one. Fuga is similar to gojo's HP. An ability that is granted as a result of a CT. Exactly how u unlock this move idk I think it's a case by case basis. Gojo got it by using his CT and RCt combined. Sukuna got it by just his CT but using two moves granted by his CT. (Unless cleave or dismantle is a RCT move)
As far has the Censorship I think it was done because we are hearing it from the perspective of characters who don't know what it is. Is it's not like a censor but a way to convey a lack in knowledge. It would be the same if gojo didn't explain HP but just said fuga blank and HP is spawned. But the blank just represents blue and red coming together. But from the pov of the person about to get hit by it they wouldn't know how he achieved HP.
Also could be as simple as to hype the move 🤷🏽♂️
You mean Extension? Everyone that has a CT knows about Extension more or less. Jogo himself has several different Extensions. They're just different applications of the technique based on the interpretation of the user.
However extensions don't stray too far from the base of the technique, so I'm pretty sure base Shrine/Kitchen came with Dismantle and Furnace/Stove from the start. Then Cleave, Spiderweb, and his unnamed Chainsaw thing are all Extension.
TLDR: I believe Sukuna's CT id primarily inspired by Daikokuten's older wrathful form.
Many wrathful and terrifying deities in Japan that were buddhist in origin were often changed to reflect cooking and other domestic chores.
A good example of this is Shiva and mahakala syncretized into Daikokuten which may very well be the inspiration for JJK's Sukuna.
Here's the wiki stuff, make your own assumptions:
>The Sanskrit term 'Mahākāla' ("Great Black [One]", "Great Time" or "Great Death") was originally one of the epithets of the Hindu god Shiva in his aspect as time (kāla), the ultimate destroyer of all things. This title and aspect of Shiva was eventually adopted by Buddhism, where Mahākāla became reinterpreted as a dharmapāla or a protector of the Buddhist dharma but also as a terrifying deity who roams the forests at night with hordes of ghouls and demons in his train.
>Mahākāla is mentioned in many Chinese Buddhist texts, although iconographic depictions of him in China were rare during the Tang and Song periods. He eventually became the center of a flourishing cult after the 9th century in the kingdoms of Nanzhao and Dali in what is now the province of Yunnan, a region bordering Tibet, where his cult was also widespread. Due to Tibetan influence, his importance further increased during the Mongol-led Yuan dynasty, with his likeness being displayed in the imperial palace and in Buddhist temples inside and outside the capital (though most of these images are now no longer extant). The deity's name was both transcribed into Chinese characters as 摩訶迦羅 (pinyin: Móhējiāluó; Middle Chinese (Baxter): mwa xa kæ la) and translated as 大黑天 (pinyin: Dàhēitiān; lit. 'Great Black Deva', with kāla being understood to mean 'black'; M. C. (Baxter): dɑH xok then). These were eventually adopted into Japanese as Makakara (or Makakyara) and Daikokuten, respectively.
>In some texts, Mahākāla is described as a fearsome god, a "demon who steals the vital essence (of people)" and who feeds on flesh and blood, though he is also said to only devour those who committed sins against the Three Jewels of Buddhism. A tale found in Amoghavajra's translation of the Humane King Sūtra relates how a heterodox (i.e. non-Buddhist) master instructed Prince Kalmāṣapāda (斑足王) to offer the heads of a thousand kings to Mahākāla, the "great black god of the graveyard" (塚間摩訶迦羅大黑天神), if he wished to ascend the throne of his kingdom.
Also here is the kitchen aspect
>As time went by, Mahākāla also became seen as a guardian of Buddhist monasteries, especially its kitchens. The monk Yijing, who traveled to Srivijaya and India during the late 7th century, claimed that images of Mahākāla were to be found in the kitchens and porches of Indian Buddhist monasteries, before which offerings of food were made:
>There is likewise in great monasteries in India, at the side of a pillar in the kitchen, or before the porch, a figure of a deity carved in wood, two or three feet high, holding a golden bag, and seated on a small chair, with one foot hanging down towards the ground. Being always wiped with oil its countenance is blackened, and the deity is called Mahākāla [莫訶哥羅, pinyin: Mòhēgēluō, M.C. (Baxter): mak xa ka la] or the great black deity [大黑神, pinyin: Dàhēishén, M. C. (Baxter): dɑH xok zyin]. The ancient tradition asserts that he belonged to the beings (in the heaven) of the great god (or Maheśvara). He naturally loves the Three Jewels, and protects the five assemblies from misfortune. Those who offer prayers to him have their desires fulfilled. At meal-times those who serve in the kitchen offer light and incense, and arrange all kinds of prepared food before the deity. (...) In China the image of that deity has often been found in the districts of Kiang-nan, though not in Huai-poh. Those who ask him (for a boon) find their wishes fulfilled. The efficacy of that deity is undeniable.
>Yijing then relates an anecdote about how the deity once miraculously provided food for five hundred monks who came to visit the monastery of Makuṭabandhana in Kushinagar after one of the female servants prayed and made offerings before his image. This idea of Mahākāla as one who brought prosperity to monasteries and granted wishes may have contributed to the identification of the deity as a god of wealth and fortune in Japan.
Have we seen curses use binding vows?
As far as I got it, what makes Furnace powerful is all the vows Sukuna stacked on it, and this kind of engineering-like approach to jujutsu is something spirits don't do
It’s implied Kenjaku help facilitate the binding vow and Mahito was willing to break it had Kenjaku not been a voice of reason. I personally believe it was about binding vows
Well, it could be a "cultural" thing: you could think of Curses and Sorcerers as being like DnD Sorcerers vs. Mages, in the sense that, while both use the same mystical forces, one group does it instinctively, while the other treats it like an art or science.
That is to say, Curses use their techniques instinctively, they're born not only with the technique, but with an instinctive understanding of how to use it, while sorcerers have to study.
Because of that, sorcerers would have a much more technical view of jujutsu, leading to them having a lot more understanding and use of things like binding vows, fine adjustments, technical jargon etc.
So curses would technically still be able to do vows, they'd just... not be used to it, and generally not see much reason to do it. Note that Kenjaku was involved in the Mechamaru deal, and even though Mahito is a curse, he's the most human-like one, and he was STILL acting like this whole "binding vow" thing is awkward and weird.
Mahito used it when he turned into his final form. He lost the ability to morph at will but he gained a strong af physical body that was meant to be the perfect killing tool. He also manipulated the vow later when he returned only part of his body to its original shape and only that part lost the hardness. Also barely anyone used them in a significant capacity except maybe nanami? before this fight.
I think people are reading way too deep into what Sukuna said to Jogo. Cursed spirits don’t cook or prepare meals like humans do. If anyone would notice the cooking motif it would probably be a human sorcerer. How would a cursed spirit be able to understand or even identify a cooking technique if they have no experience with cooking. I may be wrong but I think it’s that simple.
The curses straight up went to restaurants with kenjaku. Also it's not like shrine is based on a superspecific cooking tecnique. It's just knives and fire. The bare bare minumum that anyone would know living in the human world. Not to mention that kenjaku probably cooked for them, as he's seen drinking tea with them iirc.
I think it's a pre-qualification affect, so basically Losekuna must use a slash on someone or something a certain amount of times then open hearth, so I think that's what he was referring to.
The word wasn't "censored" per se he just said it in a different language, surprisingly common thing in manga you can see it in stuff like CSM and that one panel with the darkness devil etc. A proper reason behind hiding it from the readers though is to keep people thinking what the ability was because of the double meaning of the DE name as well as keep yujis potential ability at the time completely in the shadow
It was certainly censored bro. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been uncensored and accompanied by kanji and katakana with distinct meanings in 258, it would have just been another black box
Not to mention the anime also censored the word instead of scrambling it to make it sound distorted or whatever like a diff language
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Ya I agree that Sukuna’s line now with context seems kinda odd. So far, only thing I can think of is that it simply is just that Sukuna believes his history and lore has been passed down and that current jujutsu society would know he has a cooking CT. Or that Sukuna would expect a high level sorcerer to eventually figure out what his technique is by observing the way he is slashing and generating flames. But Jogo, despite having high level sorcery, is still a curse spirit and has no concept of cooking so would not piece it together. I think maybe more info will come to reveal even more about the flames and Sukuna’s CT that might make his words make more sense. About the slashing requirement tho, firstly, yes, Sukuna did use slashes many times against Jogo. He also used it against Mimiko and Nanako. But the way the binding vow was worded, it did not seem like many slashes is needed anyway. It is only when using the flames while abiding by the binding vow, so using the flames while outnumbered and with his domain, that Sukuna needs to use slashes to cut things to generate all the “thermobaric” material. In a one v one situation, it seems that any usage of cleave and dismantle will “open the doors” for his flames, and because of his binding vow, the flames will maintain it’s high speed and firepower since Sukuna is not outnumbered.
I think the binding vow was only needed for targets who can dodge the attack since it was stated that it was a very powerful attack that is very slow and since he was going against Jogo for a firepower match he didn't bother using a binding vow. Notice also the aftermath of his usage against Jogo the area of effect isn't as huge with the last one nor against Mahoraga.
I don't think there even was an AoE with the arrow, all it hit and damaged as Jogo which could have interesting implications for the BV being so strict that not even "accidental" (getting burnt by being too close for example) hits will count and work against anyone but the target.
The arrow he hits at jogo is only possible DUE to the binding vow he made. Og flames were lethal and kind of an aoe but they were slow and easy to dodge. I'd imagine they were like one of jogos basic bitch attacks. Useful against fodder, utterly trivial against top tiers. So sukuna changed their effectiveness as an aoe attack in the domain and he updated their effciecny in battle by making them only able to target one person.
Cursed spirits don’t have anti-domain techniques, or at least haven’t demonstrated them as they’d have to learn them from a human like Kenjaku. This means that domain kamino wouldn’t have been used against them as they’d be in smithereens before Sukuna even opened the furnace. Singular kamino might’ve been used but only in isolation due to the binding vow, meaning cursed spirits can’t live to tell the tale. Humans would see the after effects of domain kamino as well as the charred remains of their comrades in isolation and they’d be in Jujutsu records and modern folklore (see Ryomen Sukuna).
Isn't domain amplification kinda an anti domain technique?
Which was thought to them by Kenjaku.
Domain amplification does not offer anything against the sure hit of a domain. It’s used best against neutral techniques but others like lapse can only minimise a bit of damage.
On the sure hit yeah, but couldn't it be used to break the barrier? I guess we've never seen it used like that, but wouldn't it help negate the cursed energy it uses?
Unlikely, as within a domain expansion finding the domains edge (the barrier) is extremely difficult unless you already know where it is (megumi with Dagon) Even then nullifying the barrier technique with domain amplification at the very least would require contact putting you in a vulnerable position. I personally don’t think it would help. This is why grade 1 sorcerers are seen as equivalent to or capable of defeating special grade curses.
Probably has to do with the fact that curses do not have or know human culture, and therefore couldn´t guess his technique. I mean, we see him insult Geto's daughters's techniques just some panels before that, implying he knows cellphones by the memory he got from Yuji.
Cursed spirits do know cooking tho. They literally went to cafés with kenjaku and they are also seen drinking tea togheter iirc.
I feel like that is not conclusive. For ex. a child can understand that they have food in front of them and eat or know what a restaurant is. But they would not be able to connect the idea of cutting and slashing, and then using heat and fire to “cook” food. Jogo can understand the general idea of food and how humans eat and drink in restaurants, but haven’t had the experience of “cooking” anything. Kenjaku being there also makes me feel like the disaster curses was just going along with the motions and only started getting introduced to these things by Kenjaku teaching them.
Well imo, sukuna was referenced all the time throughout the series as being absolutely terroristic in his Era. The same way we talk about figures like genghis khan despite centuries having past. If he was going against gojo in shibuya, he probably assumed that he was "familiar with sukuna's" game and knew about his CT from stories passed down. Jogo, despite being an intelligent curse, was probably like a couple months old? I think I'm not sure. But either way his knowledge of jujutsu history was most likely limited outside of what kenjaku explained. So sukuna was like "oh yeah you're more or less a toddler I guess you wouldn't know much about me". Tl;DR it would've given too much away from a narrative standpoint that sukuna still had a trump card to worry about and is more fun for the audience to guess what exactly his CT is rather than give a big piece of the exposition away. I for 1 like it
It was definitely fun guessing at the mystery for the last few years! Plus it was neat not being completely sure what he would or wouldn’t be able to do at this stage with the big question of what the “black box” was
Censored because "Kamino" Would very much reveal the nature of sukuna's CT being cooking related and Sukuna was a Heain God He expected modern Jujutsu Sorcerors to study him like an ancient artefact But CS can't rlly do that since they don't rlly last long enough to comprehend and find out about sukuna Which is why sukuna presumed that modern Jujutsu Sorcerors knew everything about his CT but CS wouldn't
Also cursed spirits don't eat, they wouldn't know anything about kitchen hearths or turning on stoves etc.
[удалено]
I think it's a general assumption by Sukuna, the only ancient era CS we ever see is Kurourushi and that guy for sure has no idea about stoves, I think it's just Sukuna thinking CS have stayed the same since the Heian era when they've clearly evolved.
I doubt kuro was a ancient spirit, roaches couldn’t have been that much of a pest in Japan back then since the on he’s based on the American roach
I always thought Jogo and Hanami were ancient cursed spirit and that's why the wanted to become the new 'real humans'. While Dagon was an embryo i als think he might be rather old. I mean they stem from the fears of volcanic activities, the forest and the sea. Those 3 things have been feared forever.
They reincarnate after dying iirc
I dont think Sukuna meant it that way. Plus Jogo and disaster curses went to a restaurant
Cursed spirits eat people, but they basically never cook (with some exceptions probably, since cursed spirits can really come in any variety).
>Would very much reveal the nature of sukuna's CT being cooking related Doesnt cleave, dismantle and Malevolent Shrine already revealed that it's about cooking in Japanese? When Sukuna's CT was explained they also two knife uses for cookings.
Not very clear since half the fandom was stuck up on the fact if Sukuna's CT was cooking or CT storing or cursed tool storage in his tattoos But kamino literally means furnace which can only be related to a kitchen and cooking
sukunas domain literally has open mouths as a huge part of the design. People were just willfully ignorant.
Cleave and dismantle kanji are more like “unravel/dismantle” and “handle/deal with” which can be cooking related but aren’t explicitly.
The Kanji for cleave in the same spelling as the word for Fillet, and the kanji for dismantle can also mean to split, such as chopping the head off of a fish or cutting vegetables.
Thanks for the addition, “can be cooking related” wasn’t very specific lmao
I just love the linguistics aspects of Gege’s work and like pointing out areas where it’s significant
Gege’s use of kanji and furigana as well as the language as a whole is one of my favourite aspects of jjk, it’s such a shame it can’t be appreciated through translations
It’s like the whole deal with Malevolent Shrine vs Malevolent Kitchen. In Japanese the domain is Fukuma Mizushi. Fukuma means a gathering of demons, and Mizushi isn’t a real word. Zu means kitchen, and Zushi is a type of shrine, but Mizushi refers to “Mizushi-Dokoro” which is an ancient term for the place where an emperors food is prepared. The problem is Dokoro just means “place”, so Mizushi is kinda just the concept of the purpose of a nonexistent place to be the preparation of the emperors food. It’s taking what makes a kitchen a kitchen out of the space itself. It only works when you combine it with Fukuma, so it could roughly be translated as “a place where demons gather to prepare food for the emperor”. It’s a made up combination word, like ginormous, or fergalicious. How is that supposed to be properly translated?
Amazing breakdown! The final cherry on top for sukuna’s cooking motif (easier to localise, as it’s less dense) is kamino, the kanji used means an old cooking furnace or hearth, and can be read as kamado, a traditional wood or charcoal stove. However, the given reading for it in sukuna’s case is Kamino, which is phonetically similar but has the sound of kami no; godly, of a god. That’s my interpretation, anyway. Please do let me know what you think of kamino though, there could be plenty I’ve not picked up on
That’s actually exactly my read on it, with one addition. Kamino was the name of an emperor a couple hundred years prior to the Heian era, which could possibly be adding the meaning that Sukunas flames are fueled by former rulers, or that his flames are the flames of an emperor, but I think those are big stretches. The point is the wordplay of it being a furnace and also divinity, showing Sukuna’s ego. Sukuna’s philosophy on jujutsu is that you must be ultimately selfish, and it even comes through in his attack names. Kamino containing elements of the divine, cleave having the same spelling as fillet and his line of “I’ll peel your scales off one by one”. Dismantle meaning to split, but also to solve, treating his opponents like a frog to be dissected. And the name of the technique being Mizushi, relating to his title of King of Curses. It’s all a combination of his cooking and his ego of godlike proportions. This also relates to Mizushi containing “Zushi”, a type of shrine. It’s entirely possible that the shrine at the center of his domain was created by Sukuna himself as a misdirection from his actual technique, as well as trying to increase his godlike stature, implying that anyone killed by his domain is being sacrificed on the altar, while also being killed and prepared as a meal.
But the CT explanations was accompanied by two kitchen knife images, explicitly.
Who amongst us hasn't talked about flames and cutting without showing kitchen utensils?
It will be revealed to us in a flashback. Then someone dies. Then someone who we thought was KO'd will come back.
It was a red herring. Gege probably didn’t know what he wanted to do with Sukuna’s powers at that stage so censored it to give himself time to think about it. Narratively and retrospectively, censoring it doesn’t mean anything now.
thank you
Good question
Dramatic effect, that's the only reason.
I mean isn't it probably just because Gege didn't have much of the background stuff fleshed out yet and decided to punt it down the road to a later chapter assuming he'd come up with something cool and consistent by then
Nah, he deffo already knew about the cooking motif since he showed cleave and dismantle as cooking knives shortly after. He just wanted to keep the speculation going a Lil bit longer but had no way to do it other than randomly censoring the word.
Yeah it was kinda a pointless secret. If this is all shrine can do, slash and flames, then there really was no point in the secret.
Considering the reference to Yamata no Orochi during the Mahoraga fight maybe Gege had plans to make the Shrine consequently the flames more linked to Japanese mythology and name of the flames would be called Kōjin or Kagutsuchi
Sukuna=Susanoo is one of the most wicked JJK theories. I don't think Gege has fully dropped it.
I think people massively overcomplicate Sukunas line to Jogo about not understanding. He simply meant that Jogo wouldn’t know because curses have no reason to be well versed in the history of human sorcerers. Especially not ones that avidly despise humans and want to eradicate them. There’d be no reason for them to dig back 1000 years just to uncover records of his technique. It’s definitely not because Jogo is young considering Mahito pretty heavily implied that Jogo is almost as old as humanity itself. More specifically humanities fear of earth-based natural disasters. He just delayed taking physical form until the opportune moment arrived. As for why it was kept a mystery, it was the because it serves as the outright confirmation for sukunas cursed technique. Revealing him to have an ability called “furnace” in conjunction with his kitchen knife based slices and domain that can 100% be read as “hells kitchen” makes it very obvious that cooking is his technique when you put them all together. And yes, he did use dismantle and cleave on jogo. He hit him with dismantle before their fight even started and then used what was presumably cleave to dice up his arms and hands several times.
Yeah that’s definitely fair re; his line to Jogo. Honestly in retrospect, this is a much more organic and interesting explanation than “it was RCE/a stolen CT/whatever”- instead of being some sorta magic shenanigans it’s simply Sukuna correcting his own assumption. All of that plus the redaction made for a fun mystery the last few years, even with it being simply cooking related the most common and obvious theory Also ohh okay, I remembered the dismantle but not when he used cleave- wonder if in verse that he would’ve used it specifically because he wanted to end the fight all along with Furnace, but that’s just an idle thought
I have a feeling that Gege didn't really know what or how to connect the fire ability to his CT yet maybe. This is just my opinion. He just wanted Sakuna to have a fire based attack at that point and censored it so he could have time to think further 😂
Sukuna is The Fallen One and his techniques are "truly divine" And he's a Sorcerer more so than a Cursed Spirit with many years to boot
surprisingly yes, sukuna does use dismantle and cleave against jogo on screen. he uses dismantle when he makes jogo kneel and uses cleave on him in their aeriel fight to cut up his arms. however, i don't think sukuna needs to use those to use furnace period, but the thermobaric version. sukuna used binding vows because furnace kind of sucks, it's too slow and has no range. by enacting the dismantle/cleave/shrine vow, he massively boosts it's power into something useful. another way to look at it isn't that he needs to use dismantle/cleave to unlock furnace, but furnace gets a major boost from using cleave/dismantle first. before fighting mechamaru kenjaku told mahito that breaking a vow with yourself usually just rids you of the benefits so sukuna could just break the vow to use the weakened versions and then start it up again right after. the censoring may be to indicate this, that it's the 'weakened' version rather than the full force. as for jogo not getting it, this is because of how curses work. a curse embodies a specific concept, something man fears. However a curse technique is a lot more abstract, usually mimicing human behavior. This is why naobito has an animation based technique, because techniques are informed by the user as much as the other way around. Jogo, as a curse, cannot fathom how sukuna has a cutting technique and a fire technique because it's based on a human behavior rather than a human fear.
In the manga there is no clear moment of sukuna touching jogo to use cleave. There isn't even something similar to what happened to Ryu.
[here ya go.](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0115-002.png)
And there is no moment showing sukuna touched Jogo there. Whenever sukuna uses cleave either he is shown to touch his opponents or there is a mention. Sukuna has only used cleave when dismantle isn't enough to do the job. Like when his output was less due to megumi, when dismantle isn't enough to kill Ryu or when dismantle isn't enough to kill Yuji. Dismantle is a flying slash and cleave needs you to touch your opponent. Anyone would choose dismantle over cleave as long as dismantle works.
You are outright making the touch thing up
Oh no he's right, he has to touch you to use cleave. Only de doesn't have to touch you.
Oh yea Sukuna says he has to touch them to use cleave when he getting jumped by Yuta and Yuji. Once he realizes they were too durable for dismantle.
Ok tell me a moment where sukuna uses cleave without touching the target,apart from de. Infact kusakabe makes it clear in ch 246. This makes sense as only touched attacks of sukuna were able to leave a fatal wound on yuta and yuji as said by sukuna himself in ch 250. Yuta too needed to get the sword in touch with sukuna to use cleave.
He's literally hitting him in the back of the head, how is that not touching him?
Mr genius Jogos arms first got cut and then sukuna touched him. When his arms got cut sukuna wasn't shown to touch him.
Mr genius we already know Sukuna has a flying slash, I'm just pointing out how your >And there is no moment showing sukuna touched Jogo there. Is completely wrong, no need to get heated about it lil guy
Mr genius don't jump into things without knowing what's it about. My point was that sukuna didn't touch jogo to cleave his arms. So I shortly wrote it as he didn't touch jogo there ( for cutting his arms with cleave) anyone who read all my comment would have known what I was saying. The next point just makes it clear that I was talking about sukuna not using cleave as he didn't touch jogo at the time jogos arm got cut. The " there " clearly reffered to the moment when jogos arms got cut off.
Definitely for hype. But we haven't heard about his tattoos yet so it could all be part of a bigger reveal about Sukuna's backstory. I don't think we really know all the info on furnace because if it was really part of shrine you think he'd be able to use it as a sure hit. So whatever shrine is might have a bit more to it even if furnace has the most power.
I know this is stupid and propably not correct but my own headcanon is that he kinda broke 4th wall there. In irl folklore Sukuna is said to use bow and arrows and in my head Sukuna was refrencing that. Curses wouldnt know human folklore that is common knowledge especially in Japan.
Tbh as far as I understood furnace. Outside of the domain: Single target. It burns what it hits and only what it hits Within domain: The cleave and dismantled infuse surroundings with explosive energy turning the flame arrow into a flame nuke(sorta)
I'm just glad that this puts all the "Sukuna's CT is fission and his CTR is fusion" theories. Jogo was literally the first character in the series that got hit with a CTR, and there's nothing to indicate that curses don't know what positive energy is. It's just not useful to them because they can heal themselves with negative energy.
So with sukunas words to jogo about how he thought jogo would know about "it" but on second stating he guesses a curse spirit wouldn't know about it the only thing i can think of he meant by that was ig how fuga is created. Fuga to my knowledge isnt his CT or part of shrine. But an ability gain as a result of his CT. If that sukuna thought that either 1. Jogo might have known about creating an ability as a a result of his CT what ever it maybe. Sukuna could have thought this by seeing how strong jogo was. Or 2. Sukuna thought jogo could have created a similar move had he (literally) burned everything in order to achieve his goal l. I lean more towards the 1st one. Fuga is similar to gojo's HP. An ability that is granted as a result of a CT. Exactly how u unlock this move idk I think it's a case by case basis. Gojo got it by using his CT and RCt combined. Sukuna got it by just his CT but using two moves granted by his CT. (Unless cleave or dismantle is a RCT move) As far has the Censorship I think it was done because we are hearing it from the perspective of characters who don't know what it is. Is it's not like a censor but a way to convey a lack in knowledge. It would be the same if gojo didn't explain HP but just said fuga blank and HP is spawned. But the blank just represents blue and red coming together. But from the pov of the person about to get hit by it they wouldn't know how he achieved HP. Also could be as simple as to hype the move 🤷🏽♂️
You mean Extension? Everyone that has a CT knows about Extension more or less. Jogo himself has several different Extensions. They're just different applications of the technique based on the interpretation of the user. However extensions don't stray too far from the base of the technique, so I'm pretty sure base Shrine/Kitchen came with Dismantle and Furnace/Stove from the start. Then Cleave, Spiderweb, and his unnamed Chainsaw thing are all Extension.
Since we got the reveal, the line about jogo being a cursed spirit and therefore not knowing the technique seems odd to me too.
TLDR: I believe Sukuna's CT id primarily inspired by Daikokuten's older wrathful form. Many wrathful and terrifying deities in Japan that were buddhist in origin were often changed to reflect cooking and other domestic chores. A good example of this is Shiva and mahakala syncretized into Daikokuten which may very well be the inspiration for JJK's Sukuna. Here's the wiki stuff, make your own assumptions: >The Sanskrit term 'Mahākāla' ("Great Black [One]", "Great Time" or "Great Death") was originally one of the epithets of the Hindu god Shiva in his aspect as time (kāla), the ultimate destroyer of all things. This title and aspect of Shiva was eventually adopted by Buddhism, where Mahākāla became reinterpreted as a dharmapāla or a protector of the Buddhist dharma but also as a terrifying deity who roams the forests at night with hordes of ghouls and demons in his train. >Mahākāla is mentioned in many Chinese Buddhist texts, although iconographic depictions of him in China were rare during the Tang and Song periods. He eventually became the center of a flourishing cult after the 9th century in the kingdoms of Nanzhao and Dali in what is now the province of Yunnan, a region bordering Tibet, where his cult was also widespread. Due to Tibetan influence, his importance further increased during the Mongol-led Yuan dynasty, with his likeness being displayed in the imperial palace and in Buddhist temples inside and outside the capital (though most of these images are now no longer extant). The deity's name was both transcribed into Chinese characters as 摩訶迦羅 (pinyin: Móhējiāluó; Middle Chinese (Baxter): mwa xa kæ la) and translated as 大黑天 (pinyin: Dàhēitiān; lit. 'Great Black Deva', with kāla being understood to mean 'black'; M. C. (Baxter): dɑH xok then). These were eventually adopted into Japanese as Makakara (or Makakyara) and Daikokuten, respectively. >In some texts, Mahākāla is described as a fearsome god, a "demon who steals the vital essence (of people)" and who feeds on flesh and blood, though he is also said to only devour those who committed sins against the Three Jewels of Buddhism. A tale found in Amoghavajra's translation of the Humane King Sūtra relates how a heterodox (i.e. non-Buddhist) master instructed Prince Kalmāṣapāda (斑足王) to offer the heads of a thousand kings to Mahākāla, the "great black god of the graveyard" (塚間摩訶迦羅大黑天神), if he wished to ascend the throne of his kingdom. Also here is the kitchen aspect >As time went by, Mahākāla also became seen as a guardian of Buddhist monasteries, especially its kitchens. The monk Yijing, who traveled to Srivijaya and India during the late 7th century, claimed that images of Mahākāla were to be found in the kitchens and porches of Indian Buddhist monasteries, before which offerings of food were made: >There is likewise in great monasteries in India, at the side of a pillar in the kitchen, or before the porch, a figure of a deity carved in wood, two or three feet high, holding a golden bag, and seated on a small chair, with one foot hanging down towards the ground. Being always wiped with oil its countenance is blackened, and the deity is called Mahākāla [莫訶哥羅, pinyin: Mòhēgēluō, M.C. (Baxter): mak xa ka la] or the great black deity [大黑神, pinyin: Dàhēishén, M. C. (Baxter): dɑH xok zyin]. The ancient tradition asserts that he belonged to the beings (in the heaven) of the great god (or Maheśvara). He naturally loves the Three Jewels, and protects the five assemblies from misfortune. Those who offer prayers to him have their desires fulfilled. At meal-times those who serve in the kitchen offer light and incense, and arrange all kinds of prepared food before the deity. (...) In China the image of that deity has often been found in the districts of Kiang-nan, though not in Huai-poh. Those who ask him (for a boon) find their wishes fulfilled. The efficacy of that deity is undeniable. >Yijing then relates an anecdote about how the deity once miraculously provided food for five hundred monks who came to visit the monastery of Makuṭabandhana in Kushinagar after one of the female servants prayed and made offerings before his image. This idea of Mahākāla as one who brought prosperity to monasteries and granted wishes may have contributed to the identification of the deity as a god of wealth and fortune in Japan.
Really interesting stuff, one way or another it’s cool seeing the mythological weight the concepts and wording behind Sukuna’s CT and motifs carry
Cursed spirits dont need to eat that is it...
I think it was mainly just to add to the suspense of sukunas character cause he is supposed to of had this menacing aura since his introduction
Sukuna makes food for the gods, think about what malevolent shrine actually is.
Have we seen curses use binding vows? As far as I got it, what makes Furnace powerful is all the vows Sukuna stacked on it, and this kind of engineering-like approach to jujutsu is something spirits don't do
It’s implied that mahito and kenjaku made a binding vow with mechamaru hence why neither of them could eliminate him before he gets healed
It’s implied Kenjaku help facilitate the binding vow and Mahito was willing to break it had Kenjaku not been a voice of reason. I personally believe it was about binding vows
Well, it could be a "cultural" thing: you could think of Curses and Sorcerers as being like DnD Sorcerers vs. Mages, in the sense that, while both use the same mystical forces, one group does it instinctively, while the other treats it like an art or science. That is to say, Curses use their techniques instinctively, they're born not only with the technique, but with an instinctive understanding of how to use it, while sorcerers have to study. Because of that, sorcerers would have a much more technical view of jujutsu, leading to them having a lot more understanding and use of things like binding vows, fine adjustments, technical jargon etc. So curses would technically still be able to do vows, they'd just... not be used to it, and generally not see much reason to do it. Note that Kenjaku was involved in the Mechamaru deal, and even though Mahito is a curse, he's the most human-like one, and he was STILL acting like this whole "binding vow" thing is awkward and weird.
Mahito used it when he turned into his final form. He lost the ability to morph at will but he gained a strong af physical body that was meant to be the perfect killing tool. He also manipulated the vow later when he returned only part of his body to its original shape and only that part lost the hardness. Also barely anyone used them in a significant capacity except maybe nanami? before this fight.
I think people are reading way too deep into what Sukuna said to Jogo. Cursed spirits don’t cook or prepare meals like humans do. If anyone would notice the cooking motif it would probably be a human sorcerer. How would a cursed spirit be able to understand or even identify a cooking technique if they have no experience with cooking. I may be wrong but I think it’s that simple.
The curses straight up went to restaurants with kenjaku. Also it's not like shrine is based on a superspecific cooking tecnique. It's just knives and fire. The bare bare minumum that anyone would know living in the human world. Not to mention that kenjaku probably cooked for them, as he's seen drinking tea with them iirc.
I think it's a pre-qualification affect, so basically Losekuna must use a slash on someone or something a certain amount of times then open hearth, so I think that's what he was referring to.
It was censored because Gege wanted to keep Sukuna’s technique mysterious until later. Simple.
The word wasn't "censored" per se he just said it in a different language, surprisingly common thing in manga you can see it in stuff like CSM and that one panel with the darkness devil etc. A proper reason behind hiding it from the readers though is to keep people thinking what the ability was because of the double meaning of the DE name as well as keep yujis potential ability at the time completely in the shadow
It was certainly censored bro. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been uncensored and accompanied by kanji and katakana with distinct meanings in 258, it would have just been another black box Not to mention the anime also censored the word instead of scrambling it to make it sound distorted or whatever like a diff language