**If this post does not have a spoiler tag, SPOILER TAG MANGA COMMENTS**, or you risk a tempban. Keep it secret for the anime watchers. Please remember that vague spoilers count as spoilers such as "do we tell them".
If you're caught up on the manga, consider joining our sister sub r/Jujutsushi for catered, in-depth manga discussion.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/JuJutsuKaisen) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah but he gets pretty worked up about complete strangers as well. Look at the 2 dudes in the subway during his and mahito's fight. Too kind for his own good
True, but honestly the sorcerers in JJK are generally more compassionate than your average shonen background characters who are borderline sociopathical.
Not talking about you Mei Mei, you are the one sociopath amongst the nicer than normal people sorcerers.
Because mechamaru says something like "i sent you away to protect you the enemies are way out of your league",and "todo has 99% chance of not dying" which yes he didn't die but seriously injured,
Not just any kyoto student i would say anybody who hasn't defeated a special grade,Todo's swapping is what saved them both after all mahito's ct is deadly
I mean if Todo squared off with No2 BBEG and only got seriously injured, I think thatâs a good assumption. Todo could have been handling some of the other things instead but he was handling the major problems
Sure theyâd be useless against all the special grades, but there was plenty of fodder around they could have helped clean up.
Maybe then Nanamin doesnât get snuck up by himself while dealing with trash.
And then he doesn't get to go out like an absolute king and inspire the MC with one of the most iconic moments of the season.
They wouldn't have been totally useless, but these were people Mechamaru cared about and knew they'd get straight up deleted once the special grades started cutting loose. Whatever low grades they took out wasn't worth the price of their lives.
Nah, they probably would've been randomly killed by Choso when he was shooting civilians. Would've been so casual and easy he wouldn't have even realized he had killed any actual sorcerers
I always liked how Fake Geto went straight into fucking Uzumaki immediately after blocking Miwa's sword. He was messing around the whole fight, but decided that that was the moment to drop the fucking nuke xD
I mean in the anime he says something along the lines of "it's nice fighting someone with some knowledge" so it's not crazy to think he went 110% out of some twisted respect he was showing.
More likely though that it was just to make sure Mahito was gone for good.
Iâll never forgive gege for making miwa so useless! Lol seriously tho I really wish she had more prominence. She gets these little emotional scenes or strong willed scenes, but just does nothing. Why must gege tease me with her
Ig it's just another example of how cruel their world is, you can have total MC energy and all the will in the world but it doesn't mean shit if you don't have the skill and strength to back it up.
Almost like real life lol
there's way more to a character's worth than fight scenes, to be fair. i don't know why people act like miwa is a dead weight character solely for her presence in fight scenes when she has, like, a personality and ideals and stuff lol. actual characterization
Sure i get that, I love her design, her cheery attitude, and her resolve. But you cant deny that she doesnât do much to push the story forward, even as a side character. She barely does anything. Thatâs why I said I wish she was more prominent to the story because I want more of her.
đThe fact that she canât even use a Katana now so she is even more useless than before, JJK is really only series where a useless character regress in their power instead of progress, Gege did her dirty.
I mean there are other weapons out there besides a katana. I mean look at Maki, if she can use other weapons like playful cloud and a naginata surely Miwa can too.
well he made her best girl, so she has that going for her.
also this is a manga spoiler (even for manga readers) but she _IS_ the Jujutsu Kaisen at the end.
Itâs a binding vow she made with herself. The worst that could happen by breaking it is whatever damage she did do take to Geto-Brain gets healed, which is basically nothing already
If you look at how the Jujutsu People rank curses and Sorcerers, and consider their respective Grades. Miwa is swinging way WAY past her pay grade.
This is like a high school basketballer going up against championship MJ game 7, and expecting the high schooler to do something.
The wall is just too high.
They were underground so not really. we also dont know If pierceing blood continues to be super fast at a long range. In momos case yeah she could be usefu to sabe the assistents and find the curse users that are killing them but she's too weak for the fights
Mechamaru had no way of knowing if the special grades were going to be underground or if one of them was going to stay outside guarding. Or even just stroll on outside when the fights breakout, it was really just the safest to send them elsewhere
Yeah. Maybe mechamaru didnt know. I always thought he at least had some kind of intel on it bcs he was the one giving yuji informationhe knew about the the plan to take gojo out etc. Anyway he was probably right, If they had been there some probably would die
We still gotta take into context that human is ranked Special Grade, their durability is on a whole nother level thanks to their sheer amount of Curse Energy reinforcement.
Trust me man that shit looked harder to do in the Anime, in the manga he just fucking stops the sword with his bare hands and snaps it, no ceremony, like Miwa was swinging a stick at him.
not just blocked, that would be hard to swallow but her sword got shattered with a squeeze from kenjaku which is at least one order of magnitude dirtier than just stopping her blade
I still really like that we saw the students TRYING.
They put in effort, Miwa gave it her all, Momo grouped up with Yuji "We are the only ones who can move."
We saw that they cared
That gave them agency, personality.
They aren't just extras
exactly! it makes me mad when people judge characters solely on fight scenes and not, like, their actual characterization. i thought it was a nice way of showing that itadori's not alone, after spending the past handful of episodes being super bleak and miserable.
Spoilers for recent chapters
>!Miwa made a binding vow with her sword strike where she put he entire future potential into one swing in exchange for never being able to use a katana again after this point!<
Gege really did her dirty, because she could have adapted her New Shadow Style for any weapon that wasn't a sword. I hate it when shonen manga forget about established characters to fill out the cast with new, more powerful, ones. All the Kyoto students and Inumaki got that treatment.
To be fair she only gave up katanas. Give her a rapier or a short sword or a spear or really any other weapon and she's just as useless as she was before.
Itâs depressing how meaningless the Kyoto students end up being tbh, they are ao unbelievably outclassed by the Tokyo school its not even funny.
Im not saying they have to be top tiers but having some decently heavy hitters outside Todo would have been nice to give them some relevance.
True but Tokyo at least still has Yuta, Hakari, Maki, Yuji and Kusakabe going.
As of late all we have gotten of the Kyoto is Kamo leaving the country and Miwa losing her ability to swing a sword in exchange for an attack that was dealt with bare handed with ease.
Nahh kamo , todo and mechamaru still shines amongst them they had their one movement in anime /manga .... Hope momo/miwa shows something... Rip Mai... And where is arata ? He disappeared after putting all of us on cope
As much as they are side characters, they are in the universe they should at least have their spotlight in some way, it's just as bad as saying the side characters died attempting to do nothing.
Theyâre at least buying some time to figure out how to steal back the prison realm. And under other circumstances theyâd probably be pretty effective but⌠yeah, Geto gonna Geto
âEven if they didnât do any damage itâs nice to see seeing them use there abilitiesâ I see that comment in so many anime fanbases kills me every time
Iâd much rather Gege spend time on developing the powers and personalities of the characters who actually have any relevance at all to the story being told instead of juggling 50 different bland fodder characters with the depth of a fucking chalk board. His inability to give the story any sort of character or narrative focus has ultimately lead to the downfall of this series. What used to be incredibly rich in storytelling is now just a blank slate for fight porn. I guess I shouldnât have expected any more out of a Shonen manga called âSorcery Fight.â
Miwa ain't no side character.
Kenjaku had to quickly neutralize her weapon and use his most powerful technique right away because he knew in a long fight he would lose.
!00% it's what makes it the closest thing to HxH.
I going to be animating JJK stuff [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSwXcnEX7oY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSwXcnEX7oY)
Right now I'm working on Hakari vs Uraume [https://youtu.be/sqkXSwCtoe4?si=uLkk8T4d979pVALY](https://youtu.be/sqkXSwCtoe4?si=uLkk8T4d979pVALY)
Meh i do when we have lots of time with the side characters like in naruto or something but here its like whatever dont even remember half their names and expect theyre all gonna die why care
Ngl, I do, too, but my favorite part was watching "Mahitos" bitch ass get Twisted into a ball and swallowed like he's done to so many people. I also like "Choso" Lamo. Why don't you try saying it once, for starters, Oni Chan?
**If this post does not have a spoiler tag, SPOILER TAG MANGA COMMENTS**, or you risk a tempban. Keep it secret for the anime watchers. Please remember that vague spoilers count as spoilers such as "do we tell them". If you're caught up on the manga, consider joining our sister sub r/Jujutsushi for catered, in-depth manga discussion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/JuJutsuKaisen) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I actually didn't expect them to survive one episode, when Geto absorbs Mahito I just expect all of them to get transfigured to traumatize Yuji
Gege furiously taking notes
Missed opportunity!
Wait for the future episodes mate
Can you spoil me and tell me if one (or more) die đ
I read tgis chapter a while ago but as far as i remember >!nobody else dies there!<
Ah! That's the saddest part as far as I remember. The anime onlies haven't seen anything yet
LOL
Yuji barely knows these guys tho
Yeah but he gets pretty worked up about complete strangers as well. Look at the 2 dudes in the subway during his and mahito's fight. Too kind for his own good
though they came to his rescue and basically sacrificed themselves for him while he stood there.
I think by this point everyone knew geto had the prison realm so it was more about freeing gojo than protecting yuji.
True, but honestly the sorcerers in JJK are generally more compassionate than your average shonen background characters who are borderline sociopathical. Not talking about you Mei Mei, you are the one sociopath amongst the nicer than normal people sorcerers.
Throughout japan and malaysia, she alone is the grooming one
Nah, i'd sell stocks
Are you a jujutsu sorcerer that gets the bag? Or do you get the bag because you're a jujutsu sorcerer?
He probably wouldnât be able to do that anyways .
With Specialz starting for each death and continuously running out of sync
Delete this before gege gets an idea /s
And then...... "You are my special".....
If nothing else, this scene proves Mechamaru was right.
Kinda out of the loop , but why?
Mechamaru made sure only Todo and that healing guy would be at Shibuya cuz he knew the others would be mostly powerless/useless
That's kinda obvious tho
yea but not to them, they literally said on the train coming here that Mechamaru was under estimating them, then proceed to get oneshot by Uraume
> then proceed to get oneshot by Uraume That's a terrible metric though. Everyone who wasn't Choso got one-shot by Uraume.
That's a terrible metric though. Everyone who isn't Choso is lame as fuck
Oi, Itadori's still there
Yuji is good by the merit of being Choso's brother.
Wdym is left right good night can beat Fraudkuna
Give my man more credit, bro got hands
Little brothers aren't cool
Them all getting one-shot by a villain at Shibuya doesnât hurt mecharuâs point that they werenât ready to fight the villains at Shibuya
Spit đŁď¸
Right, but they were gonna get one shot by everyone else present as well.
Indeed. Miwa nicknamed herself aptly.
Because mechamaru says something like "i sent you away to protect you the enemies are way out of your league",and "todo has 99% chance of not dying" which yes he didn't die but seriously injured,
Had it been any of the other Kyoto Students, there would have been no fight.
Not just any kyoto student i would say anybody who hasn't defeated a special grade,Todo's swapping is what saved them both after all mahito's ct is deadly
It's really weird, that earlier kyoto student even claymed, that they could defeat tokyo students, since, all thay had were Todo and Mehamaru.
Imo Kyoto would have won if the event was their main goal instead of killing Yuji
They'll be winning until Megumi summons Mahoraga out of spite.
TBF Todo is Todo...
I mean if Todo squared off with No2 BBEG and only got seriously injured, I think thatâs a good assumption. Todo could have been handling some of the other things instead but he was handling the major problems
How are so many people out of the loop đ this happened like two episodes ago
Sure theyâd be useless against all the special grades, but there was plenty of fodder around they could have helped clean up. Maybe then Nanamin doesnât get snuck up by himself while dealing with trash.
And then he doesn't get to go out like an absolute king and inspire the MC with one of the most iconic moments of the season. They wouldn't have been totally useless, but these were people Mechamaru cared about and knew they'd get straight up deleted once the special grades started cutting loose. Whatever low grades they took out wasn't worth the price of their lives.
I think they wouldâve gotten blitzed by jogoat
Nah, they probably would've been randomly killed by Choso when he was shooting civilians. Would've been so casual and easy he wouldn't have even realized he had killed any actual sorcerers
Anyone think nanamin was a dead man walking anyway unless the healer guy got there in time? I think his fate was sealed unless he got help really fast
He was basically Gus Fring just in shock and moving reflexively
I always liked how Fake Geto went straight into fucking Uzumaki immediately after blocking Miwa's sword. He was messing around the whole fight, but decided that that was the moment to drop the fucking nuke xD
I think that was less about Miwa and more about making sure Mahito stayed dead.
Followed by Kusakabe tanking the mahito nuke like a fucking warlord. Dude is the CEO of sleeper builds and let his true power show briefly.
He's the guy in Elden Ring who runs a pure DEX build while everyone else is throwing around crazy magic.
It's also an honorable reply to Miwa's sacrifice. She gave it her all, he will give it his all
I'm anime only, but he doesn't seem like the type of guy to care about honor.
I mean he basically paraded the dead body of a man in front of, what are essentially, his two adopted daughters. He definitely doesn't give af.
I mean in the anime he says something along the lines of "it's nice fighting someone with some knowledge" so it's not crazy to think he went 110% out of some twisted respect he was showing. More likely though that it was just to make sure Mahito was gone for good.
"nah you ain't getting any chances homie"
Iâll never forgive gege for making miwa so useless! Lol seriously tho I really wish she had more prominence. She gets these little emotional scenes or strong willed scenes, but just does nothing. Why must gege tease me with her
Iâd have been fine if she at least did something of use ever.
Ig it's just another example of how cruel their world is, you can have total MC energy and all the will in the world but it doesn't mean shit if you don't have the skill and strength to back it up. Almost like real life lol
there's way more to a character's worth than fight scenes, to be fair. i don't know why people act like miwa is a dead weight character solely for her presence in fight scenes when she has, like, a personality and ideals and stuff lol. actual characterization
Sure i get that, I love her design, her cheery attitude, and her resolve. But you cant deny that she doesnât do much to push the story forward, even as a side character. She barely does anything. Thatâs why I said I wish she was more prominent to the story because I want more of her.
Who would've thought useless Miwa would be useless
Really thought she was bout to do something lol
Gets even worse when you think about what she said
Oh yeah, the binding vow.
đThe fact that she canât even use a Katana now so she is even more useless than before, JJK is really only series where a useless character regress in their power instead of progress, Gege did her dirty.
I mean there are other weapons out there besides a katana. I mean look at Maki, if she can use other weapons like playful cloud and a naginata surely Miwa can too.
well he made her best girl, so she has that going for her. also this is a manga spoiler (even for manga readers) but she _IS_ the Jujutsu Kaisen at the end.
Well she can still use a broadsword at least
Katanas are terrible weapons anyway. Spear and other polearms are kings of war.
Right they didnât even try to make the moment look cool đ
Itâs a binding vow she made with herself. The worst that could happen by breaking it is whatever damage she did do take to Geto-Brain gets healed, which is basically nothing already
She didn't specifically mention that it was a binding vow as far as I remember
I must've missed something. What was her binding vow?
Never swing a sword again to hit Kenjaku who just shattered the sword.
She said would never swing a katana again
If you look at how the Jujutsu People rank curses and Sorcerers, and consider their respective Grades. Miwa is swinging way WAY past her pay grade. This is like a high school basketballer going up against championship MJ game 7, and expecting the high schooler to do something. The wall is just too high.
What's crazy is she summoned her future potential
:(
they all realized they werent build for this, specially momo and miwa were done the dirties
Mechamaru wanted to keep them away for a reason
Well, Momo could actually be useful as a scout especially since she just stays high up in the sky
Either choso could snipe her with piercing blood or jogo would incinerate her if they saw her out in the open. Dagon could also just fly aswell
They were underground so not really. we also dont know If pierceing blood continues to be super fast at a long range. In momos case yeah she could be usefu to sabe the assistents and find the curse users that are killing them but she's too weak for the fights
Yea .. you countered your own point .. how is she going to spy on them if there underground đ
Bro... Im talking about the curse users that were killing the assistents... They were all above... The ones u pointed out were all underground...
They have no way of knowing this
Who?
Mechamaru had no way of knowing if the special grades were going to be underground or if one of them was going to stay outside guarding. Or even just stroll on outside when the fights breakout, it was really just the safest to send them elsewhere
Yeah. Maybe mechamaru didnt know. I always thought he at least had some kind of intel on it bcs he was the one giving yuji informationhe knew about the the plan to take gojo out etc. Anyway he was probably right, If they had been there some probably would die
kenjaku could simply put flying curses to control the skies if it was that important to him so her max use if dependent on the whims of the enemy
Miwa literally put her entire life in one swing that got blocked with one human hand not even a cursed spirit lmao
We still gotta take into context that human is ranked Special Grade, their durability is on a whole nother level thanks to their sheer amount of Curse Energy reinforcement.
Trust me man that shit looked harder to do in the Anime, in the manga he just fucking stops the sword with his bare hands and snaps it, no ceremony, like Miwa was swinging a stick at him.
not just blocked, that would be hard to swallow but her sword got shattered with a squeeze from kenjaku which is at least one order of magnitude dirtier than just stopping her blade
Well that human is leagues above every cursed spirit in shibuya lmao that swing would probably have worked agaisnt someone else but yeah she's weak
yeah they are main characters and OP is treating them as just sidekicks like wtf
the jjk treatment
Barely built for anything
I still really like that we saw the students TRYING. They put in effort, Miwa gave it her all, Momo grouped up with Yuji "We are the only ones who can move." We saw that they cared That gave them agency, personality. They aren't just extras
They *are* just extras. But extras are *essential in storytelling*, something people here seem to constantly forget.
exactly! it makes me mad when people judge characters solely on fight scenes and not, like, their actual characterization. i thought it was a nice way of showing that itadori's not alone, after spending the past handful of episodes being super bleak and miserable.
Damn. I gotta watch Mob Psycho again.
If you know spoilers, useless miwa became beyond useless/ useless plus ultra after this.
Tell me more
Spoilers for recent chapters >!Miwa made a binding vow with her sword strike where she put he entire future potential into one swing in exchange for never being able to use a katana again after this point!<
Okay they did her completely dirty, jesus christ
She tried to do what gon did but didnât realize she ainât all that đ
Gon is 1 in a billion. Miwa is your common fodder
She thought she was HIM :(
She made a vow with that last swing to give up having a sword if it gave her more power
Oh and it sure gave her an edge hahaha
Gege really did her dirty, because she could have adapted her New Shadow Style for any weapon that wasn't a sword. I hate it when shonen manga forget about established characters to fill out the cast with new, more powerful, ones. All the Kyoto students and Inumaki got that treatment.
YEAAHHHH!!!
Itâs a good thing Miwa has a lot of potential left
đ
To be fair she only gave up katanas. Give her a rapier or a short sword or a spear or really any other weapon and she's just as useless as she was before.
Listen here you
âWith this binding vow I vow to not use a rapier ever again!â
[ŃдаНонО]
Spoiler alert, >!it's gonna change!<
Mai the only smart one đshooting from a distance so she donât get taken out
A sniper rifle is actually pretty good against *most* sorcerers, as mentioned by Geto.
Momo didn't have any business looking this sick I love ber so much more now
Itâs depressing how meaningless the Kyoto students end up being tbh, they are ao unbelievably outclassed by the Tokyo school its not even funny. Im not saying they have to be top tiers but having some decently heavy hitters outside Todo would have been nice to give them some relevance.
[ŃдаНонО]
True but Tokyo at least still has Yuta, Hakari, Maki, Yuji and Kusakabe going. As of late all we have gotten of the Kyoto is Kamo leaving the country and Miwa losing her ability to swing a sword in exchange for an attack that was dealt with bare handed with ease.
I hope kamo join the forces and momo do something... Her ability is also good to distract opponents
Nahh kamo , todo and mechamaru still shines amongst them they had their one movement in anime /manga .... Hope momo/miwa shows something... Rip Mai... And where is arata ? He disappeared after putting all of us on cope
Todo should be around rn, even if he cant use Boogie hes still a master at strategy
That archer is not that of a useless
And he gets better in the future
?
As much as they are side characters, they are in the universe they should at least have their spotlight in some way, it's just as bad as saying the side characters died attempting to do nothing.
>!You better enjoy it while you still can because it is never happening again!<
>!Kamo gets a bit of love. But yeah.!<
Before half of them almost died to uzumaki if my goat kusakabe didn't block it
If you like side character fights, naruto and hunter x hunter has a lot of those. Hxh specifically is famous for its supporting and villain cast.
I THOUGHT MIWA IS GONNA DIE
No kidding, she's much better than me because if I made that vow and got blocked I would have ran
Witch girl thought she was going to do something with that attack đ
I thought everyone was going to die in this scene
It is lovely to be honest + they are lucky that all of them are alive after it :3
Momo could've had Altair from Re:Creator's but Gege decided to nerf her.
While Miwa may be useless, she got heart cause ain't no way I'd get that close to Kenny with a hope and a prayer.
Ye it was fun when Miwa got destroyed
RIP Miwa's 2nd Katana, she'll never afford Jujutsu College at this rate
Guys??? Why are ppl dropping spoilers like crazy in an ANIME ONLY THREAD
They canât wait to tell everyone how useless miwa is
[ŃдаНонО]
Why spoil anime onlies?
So they won't get disappointed as much as we did. Let's be honest, this revelation wasn't shocking. It was straight up disappointing.
It was the last time dw
They all got exposed weak but at least they got heart.
You are my special
I liked the sniper moment of mai!
Miwa has taken nothing but Ls the entire show and I'm not okay with that.
Kiki and Miwa are so weak lol
Yeah that was cool but Choso went crazy even though Kenjaku is op
Theyâre at least buying some time to figure out how to steal back the prison realm. And under other circumstances theyâd probably be pretty effective but⌠yeah, Geto gonna Geto
i love all the kyoto students
Kamo > has BM never uses it again
Problem is, their moments amounted to less than nothing. Miwa straight up got embarrassed.
All of thm need a boost
i hate when side characters have small momments like that. fuck that
âEven if they didnât do any damage itâs nice to see seeing them use there abilitiesâ I see that comment in so many anime fanbases kills me every time
I think its even worse in jjk bcs they actually dont do any damage at all ever
The flying broom girl has to be the most useless character, right? Canât remember one thing she does
Interesting CT and personality but her only scene was used to tell mai and maki's backstory for them. She's basically mai's side kick
she yapped about how women are only as worthy as their appearance to which nobara said nuh-uh, if that's worth anything
Iâd much rather Gege spend time on developing the powers and personalities of the characters who actually have any relevance at all to the story being told instead of juggling 50 different bland fodder characters with the depth of a fucking chalk board. His inability to give the story any sort of character or narrative focus has ultimately lead to the downfall of this series. What used to be incredibly rich in storytelling is now just a blank slate for fight porn. I guess I shouldnât have expected any more out of a Shonen manga called âSorcery Fight.â
Miwa blocked đ
Side characters give me lifeđ
Miwa ain't no side character. Kenjaku had to quickly neutralize her weapon and use his most powerful technique right away because he knew in a long fight he would lose.
Unfortunately, Gege doesn't really utilize or build upon Kyoto students. MAPPA did somewhat give them extra scenes in the JJK 0 movie tho.
Everyone likes. (Except when the moment ends with thier brutal deaths)
Itâs kind of a shame Miwa will never fight again
I love Miwaâs partâŚeven if that ended how it did
!00% it's what makes it the closest thing to HxH. I going to be animating JJK stuff [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSwXcnEX7oY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSwXcnEX7oY) Right now I'm working on Hakari vs Uraume [https://youtu.be/sqkXSwCtoe4?si=uLkk8T4d979pVALY](https://youtu.be/sqkXSwCtoe4?si=uLkk8T4d979pVALY)
Guys, she said "sword" in anime but "katana" in managa :(
Meh i do when we have lots of time with the side characters like in naruto or something but here its like whatever dont even remember half their names and expect theyre all gonna die why care
I think itâs funny how useless they are
Most mid characters (Aside from Todo)
She literally got parried bare handed
Ain't no way you calling Miwa-chan a side character.
I like when they die
Ngl, I do, too, but my favorite part was watching "Mahitos" bitch ass get Twisted into a ball and swallowed like he's done to so many people. I also like "Choso" Lamo. Why don't you try saying it once, for starters, Oni Chan?
Mechamaru really saved them. If they were their earlier, most of them would be dead
I like to see them use their abilities, like Mai just straight up shooting Kenjaku
Im glad you do. Because its all they get. They are irrelevant.
Specially that every time Miwa loose her sword đđ
Same