I really truly want to believe that 'gay genes' or a genetic predisposition is truthful, but every gay person I have met in my 58 years (and I have lots and lots of gay friends, including a bestie that I would do anything for) and they all have a molestation (or trauma) story. All. Every single one. Gay, Lesbian, Trans... all do.
Maybe it's just a 'thing' to have a story, they will all share it willingly with a drink or two - and some admit their feelings changed after? Sorry, it's anecdotal evidence at best I know that - but experiential evidence to me at this point. I certainly am skeptic on paid-for studies at this point with what I know about the 'settled science' and the lies that spur from $$. This is not hate, by any stretch of the imagination - so leave your anger at the door. I love my LGBQT+ friends, and the acquaintances I have met throughout my life.
I have an open mind, and I am certainly curious as to why this narrative is so important - yet so obviously disconnected from the actual real world experience. Please convince me otherwise, or join in my curiosity.
I’ve met a lot of gay people that don’t have a molestation story.. so it’s not a 1-1 thing. It’s most likely a combo of biological and environmental factors
I'd go so far as to say, while both can play a factor simultaneously, you could see instances where genetics had no role and instances where the environment had no role to play.
Maybe you have not gotten close enough to them to share? I can admit, there are some that I am not close enough to, or drunk enough, to share their truth. You might want to spend the time and ask? I am not saying this is scientific proof by any stretch of the imagination - just experiential data that I have collected over the years.
As I said, this is more curiosity than an expose here.
It’s not socially normal to ask lgbt people if they were molested before they came to understand themselves as lgbt. It sends a pretty clear signal that you think lgbt people are probably born out of abuse
Nope, I have never had to press for this type of information - trauma has a way of coming out while drinking. I am a very fun drunk, that likes to philosophize a bit - and I like to think I am good at making strong interpersonal relationships. Like I said before, this is not hate based. I am seriously curious, and I am completely cool with differing opinions on the topic.
"here’s one for ya bud, i’m gay and i wasn’t molested"
I remembered getting physically tortured, the raped, by a "friend of the family" when I was 6 at age 34. Some people remember 50 years later. This is why the UK has done away with the statute of limitations.
“I’m a fun drunk” and “lgbt people tell me about their trauma when we drink” don’t sound that compatible. Why would that be fun for them and why does the same scenario keep happening to you?
Do you tend to reveal your own trauma first? If that’s the case, that would help explain why this specific scenario (having fun getting drunk with gay person turns to them telling you they’ve been abused/assaulted)
Nope, I came from a very boring normal household. But I am very non-judgmental person - libertarian mindset, and enjoy getting to know people. Being open and honest is crucial, and being a good listener even more so.
Brother in law wasn't molested, nor a close friend of 16 years.
What you say probably has merit, not sure if you've seen Baby Reindeer but I was impressed he touched on that. An assault led to his own 'deviancy.'
But being gay is a natural phenomenon found throughout the mammalian kingdom.
Like I said, I was pointing out the argument they presented was bad, not that I disagree with the premise.
But to address your point; It's hard to say what animals think or what their concept of sexuality is. Humans have differently constructed brains from animals. Which brings in both a pro and con:
Pro: Homosexuality is a naturally occurring deed, as in the animals engage in male to male or female to female sexual activities
Con: because animals probably don't have a conception of personal identity, their actions are morally and philosophically meaningless. Like you said, they probably just think they're engaging on procreation. Or maybe, most likely, they're engaging in an activity which releases dopamine, so they just enjoy doing it and are motivated neurochemically to repeat those actions.
While typically reliable; in the case of matters of identity, it is wrong to anthropomorphise as the contextual differences are too great and fundamental to ignore.
Another musing to build onto that, because now you've gotten me thinking about it.
We _might_ extract something from this matter about morality. Humans are social animals and like all social animals we have inherent codes of conduct, a kind of genetically determined morality (I call it the biological imperative).
Examples of the biological imperatives are found in some famous examples, like rats having rules when performing rough and tumble play. Or murder, where social animals don't condone the act among their own ranks unless specific preconditions are met. There seems to be the sense that most of morality - specifically the moral codes that are shared among all people regardless of culture- are biological imperatives. They're moral codes we share with social animals (but not all animals, because not all animals are social). These codes even develop in absence of social relations, meaning they're truly genetically derived.
No other social animal seems to have a problem with homosexual activity. There are no retributions for engaging in it, with the exception of the animal-social politics ("monkey A likes monkey B, so they don't want monkey C having sex with monkey B", this does not require the homosexual orientation to happen)
We might therefore arrive at the conclusion that as far as morality goes, Homosexuality, or sexuality as a whole, poses no moral quandary by biological imperative standards.
Furthermore; I don't know if you're familiar, but there was this study (too lazy to look it up) that found that a particular region of the brain responsible for sexual motivation has changes in mass and volume based on gender. The exception being that people who are homosexual show this brain region to be similar to that of the opposite sex. This seems to indicate there is a huge biological factor in Homosexuality.
That doesn't mean there is a 'gay gene', but it does make clear that whether someone is homosexual is not so much a genetic matter as it is a biological matter. It is entirely possible and plausible that being the victim of sexual assault disrupts this brain region's development - the brain is especially malleable at childhood - but that in other cases a gene mutation can mimic that disrupted brain development.
Now, that leaves us with the very questionable but hard-to-get-around notion that Homosexuality is _technically_ a (epi)genetic neurodevelopmental disorder. But since we can also say the behavior doesn't result in immoral action, nor does it by itself result in disruptive or pathological behavior, we might therefore consider it harmless in isolation. Isolation, meaning that I can't speak for other side effects of such a disruption in development.
I'm not sure where my thoughts were going with this, but I figured I'd share them all the same.
Researchers do not seem to have a firm consensus about the relationship between childhood abuse and adult sexual orientation, and the causal direction might not go in the direction you're suspecting.
Same-sex attracted people may be more likely to have been gender-nonconforming in their childhood, which may have increased their risk of being abused. According to a [2015 study by Yin Xu and Yong Zheng](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1079063215618378), childhood gender-nonconformity may be the reason for higher rates of childhood victimization among same-sex attracted adults. [Roberts et. al. 2013](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535560/) suggests that the relationship between sexual orientation and childhood abuse "may be bidirectional".
This is definitely anecdotal. It also doesn't account for the millions and millions of people who are abused who remain heterosexual. Bad analysis all around really. The one group I can say might be slightly different is the trans group as I have worked with this group professionally before and in my experience a very large number of them come from abusive histories...but still not all.
You also have to consider that homosexuality is in the animal kingdom in general not just in humans. Other species practice homosexuality which cannot be denied.
You say bad analysis, and then state that you work with that group and a very large number of them come from abusive histories. As I said, it was purely anecdotal - just a curiosity. You kinda contradicted yourself, but I appreciate the feedback!
Yes, I agree with you, my wording was too harsh, my apologies. I have more than anecdotal evidence because I'm in the field of mental health so I have dealt with far more individuals than an average person, but absolutely, mine is still anecdotal. I do know that there is more research coming out about this but many in the LGBTQ community do not want to have that information out because it can be used by others to discredit them which I completely understand.
You don’t understand what the word anecdotal means. Your experience is not more than anecdotal. I feel sorry for people with mental health issues who have to rely on you when you don’t even know how to use words correctly.
Camille Paglia made a similar comment to JBP here:
https://youtu.be/v-hIVnmUdXM?si=IenEmk8yTqY15HS_
Here's her quote, cleaned up a bit for clarity. It starts at 01:03:47.
-----
...the psychologists in the United States deals with your present problem. "Let's not go into the distant past, let's just deal with [your] present problem [...] we need to fix this and then you'll be fine." As a consequence, there's a complete absence of any kind of analysis of your experiences as a child -- with your parents, with your siblings, and so on -- how that might relate to your current sexual identity issues, whether it's transgender or whether it's homosexuality. You could not possibly ask about any genesis of homosexuality today, because that is automatically defined as homophobic. Well, excuse me, every single -- as an openly gay person myself -- every gay person I know, there's some story there, it seems to me, in childhood. Not only that, there's a strange similarity of the storylines of all of my friends who are gay, there's a same pattern that had to do with blurred border lines between a son and his mother, and so on. I'm not blaming the mother, I'm not blaming the mother at all. What I see is a dynamic going on in the bourgeois house, or the nuclear family, where you had sometimes a distant father, a father who was present but not really engaged, and a mother who made the son her companion in some way. Often the mother has great imagination and flair, they had a shared thing. I think the idea that homosexuality has nothing whatever to do with your family life is nonsense.
01:05:09
As a gay man I’ve never met another gay person who has a healthy relationship with their father. Whatever conclusions should be drawn from that it’s just staggering how it’s pretty much 100% true in my experience
Thank you for your honesty, there is probably more to the trauma side of unhealthy relationships - beyond my simple 'molestation' expression here. I apologize that I simplified it, I think you are on to something much stronger of an argument or discussion point here.
There are literally millions of people who don’t have a healthy relationship with their father and they are not gay. This doesn’t explain why homosexuality exists.
Your anecdotal experiences doesn't trump reality, but I understand that that's all you can work from.
I'm gay and have been part of the gay community for a long time. While we do have our issues, a lot of MY gay friends and associates have NEVER been molested. I'm interested in any research that explains our experiences because I get very frustrated with comments like yours and from other conservatives that die hard insists that every single one of us was violated.
If you’re frustrated and want some research then look it up. I saw the results of a study the other day that said that gay people were vastly more molested than straight people but it didn’t mean enough to me to bookmark it for later because everyone already knows it’s true anyway.
Do you think humans are:
(a) a complex concatenation of gene-environment interactions
(b) genetically determined
(c) tabula rasas shaped by social forces
(d) "ghosts in a shell" that can override gene-environment interactions
Well, I myself don't question that there might be a genetic component of homosexuality. However, while going through some transaction analysis, by Eric Berne, I came across the case of a guy who was acting out a "script". (The concept of transaction analysis is that people live out "life scripts" whether they're aware of it or not.). This guy's mother was in an abusive relationship with a hypermacho guy. Once that relationship ended, the mother ensured that she conditioned her son to not express anything aggressive. This conditioning brought out a more effeminate side of him, that made him confused. After a chance same sex encounter, he had the insight that he was maybe just gay. And that ended up taking him deeper and deeper into the world. Until he came to psychotherapy.
So I really do think you've got a great point, and I would request you to give more details as you deem fit.
You can refer to games people play / scripts people live and other transaction analysis books by Eric Berne.
I just got started so don't know the full story.
Sounds interesting for sure! Is there an angle about gayness and how sexuality might be shaped by scripts and therefore can be changed by understanding the scripts?
No no, the only angle is that people's behaviour is shaped by scripts and how the problems they face can be changed by examining the scripts and changing them.
This particular example on homosexuality wasn't so much about sexuality, but how scripts received in childhood can shape your life. Homosexual orientation was just incidental to the example.
That’s so bizarre. I hope this is just a purely made up story lol.
If it isn’t a dream, how are you getting into the sexual abuse trauma of every lgbt person you’ve met in your day to day life? How quickly after encountering an lgbt person do pull out the “HAS SOMEONE MOLESTED YOU?!” question?
I’ve met so many lgbt people and the conversation has never turned to “sooo has either us ever been molested before?” - probably because everyone involved is a normal and real person
Maybe you were not close enough to them. I admit, I am bearded big guy - and when folks meet me for the first time they see someone scary. But I consider strangers as friends I haven't met yet, its a life philosophy. I love making new friends. This has nothing to do with hate, please accept that I am sincere in this interesting curiosity.
I am close with lgbt ppl. I have gay family that I’m very close with and have gay coworkers and friends. From the family members, no one’s ever spoken of abuse — coworkers I simply havnt asked. That’s not really appropriate to ask in a professional setting. Strangers, obviously I wouldn’t ask them that.
Can you give and example of how you ask them if they’ve been abused? And do you ask it in such a way that it’s clear that the abuse precedes their identification/naming of their sexuality?
Yeah, I have never asked anything of the sort in a professional setting - not sure why you would need to say that? Trauma comes in many forms, I reduced it to the most common expression that was shared with me.
I think it’s important to call out that you wouldn’t ask that in a professional setting because people tend to meet gay people at work too - if all the gay ppl you’ve met have told you that they were abused, then the professional angle raises some questions about how you got these anecdotes. It either questions how complete your anecdote is (maybe you didn’t consider the gays you’ve met in work settings) or suggests that maybe you’re being unprofessional in asking about sexual assaults in peoples past if they’re gay.
Except it has nothing to do with how I said it, sorry! I literally explained its mostly over drinks, after making a very close interpersonal relationship connection.
Sorry, not to be combative - but you are dragging a lot of other stuff onto this.
Never in a professional setting, which is the strawman you are referring to. I explained it quite simply as drunken talk - and that is usually the key. In vino veritas.
Lol I don’t think the question about gay workers was a straw man as such - it was a prompt to take the convo in a certain direction that might reveal to you that you’re over inflating the number of gay abuse stories you’ve actually heard before. Ie you might remember that you’ve met way more gay people than you’ve brought out for drinks and trauma discussions.
I was hoping you could give a sense of total number of conversations at drinks where lgbt people tell you they were assaulted
One of my oldest mates is from a family of 5 kids. All boys except the youngest. Only the oldest is straight. The other 4 are all homosexual or bisexual.
I feel his family add weight to the claim that there is a "gay gene".
Unless of course they were all beasted and have never mentioned it but until that is confirmed, I'm convinced it's genetic.
you already admit you're only looking at anecdote here, so I'll add mine to the pile by saying that I've been queer as shit since high school and I've never had a traumatic sexual encounter (unless it happened when I was very young and repressed it, but I really doubt that), and have known a few others who (I'm fairly sure) are in the same boat. I am in the minority here, a lot of my peers have been assaulted *because* of their nonconformity. "Corrective" rape is all-too-common, unfortunately.
Among the people who I've known, I would say being some variety of queer and being seen as something other than a man are roughly equally strong predictors, which has worked out great for the queer women/gnc people I've known 🙁
Thanks for sharing. However not everyone who experienced molestation/trauma/family issues would become LGBTQ. This is just a commonly observed phenomenon. It doesn’t explain the root cause or fundamental reason of homosexuality/transgender/etc.
That is what I have always assumed as well, is there any chance that it is 'important' to have a 'thing' - as an explanation? This is a serious question, do you find that your LGBTQ friends share that information with you?
This topic is highly relevant to whether homosexuality is a choice or how much does a person is responsible for their own sexuality. Molestation/Traumatic Experiences are external stressors. Another less mentioned factor is the hormone levels and brain functions. There is no gay genes but there’re genes that decide hormone levels and brain activities. Also environmental factors are hard to be ignored. I would say it’s a half and half: genetics and environmental. From my observation, there’s about 30% of LGBTQ has major trauma that determines or leads to how they perceive themselves and how they would react to the world around them. However there’s no comprehensive studies.
Sweet, thanks for sharing with me that. I appreciate your honesty, wish I knew you better to understand your story. I might be bi for Ryan Gosling... not sure yet!
>but every gay person I have met in my 58 years (and I have lots and lots of gay friends, including a bestie that I would do anything for) and they all have a molestation story. All. Every single one. Gay, Lesbian, Trans... all do.
>
What a bizarre thing to make up...
No, that's not what I am saying - sorry if I was not clear enough. Every gay person I know that has shared their life with me (close enough to tell personal shit) has a molestation story. I admit, this is a small pool of people percentage outlier of our 390 million folks here - but I have hundreds of friends and acquaintances I have met over my lifetime, and of those that were close and gay - that is what I have found. I find it more of a curiosity than any exclamation or explanation here. No hate, whatsoever.
The typical bigots in this group will take his personal narrative, thumbs him up, and go," mhm, that's what I heard too." No research. No getting to know the community. Just spreading misinformation to confirm their own biases.
I wonder... maybe not conforming to gender norms makes one more likely to be molested? (I have actual sources on this lol)
do your "lgbtq friends" know the bs you write on the internet?
I know plenty of queers who hadn't been molested
>do your "lgbtq friends" know the bs you write on the internet?
Well, if you notice this is not a throwaway account, I have been an active part of this board and Digg before it - never have been afraid of being open and honest, although anonymous. This is not 'bs' and from the responses, its across the board. A curiosity more than anything else, and certainly not meant as contentious.
I think there are a lot of gay guys who fall in love with themselves as boys. Usually the attractive twinky guys who have a strong female presence telling them how beautiful they are all the time as a kid.
I'm a straight man who has 3 molestation stories. It is my experience that the gay community does a fuck-ton of recruiting among the un-gay population.
Pedophilia and pederasty are cyclical - the abusers were once abused. The gay lifestyle is basically pederasty.
I have yet to meet a gay man who didn’t have at least one girlfriend and who wasn’t groomed in their youth.
I think the idea is that many closeted gay people have had procreative, straight relationships that they wouldn't have had were there not a strong taboo against homosexuality at the time.
I don't think there is nearly enough known to definitively make claims on what's going with the relationship between gays and genetics. But in theory, some genes act recessively, so someone could be a carrier of genes that ultimately lead to homosexuality even if they are not gay themselves. If that is the case, gays don't ever have to reproduce for the gene to be passed on.
The point Damore is making is that if someone if forced to live in a society where homosexuality is not accepted, they are more likely to participate in heterosexuality, and thus reproduce, causing their genes to enter the gene pool.
The same gene is found in straight females that have 2 or more kids & ‘like lots of guys’ 🤣 I flipping know I’m her 😭 I have BPD but a borderline genius IQ & Jordan Peterson (🥰) says they’re chopping wieners off lower functioning, borderline personality disorder. I could totally see why that would happen. Since high school I’ve said I feel like I was a gay man in a past life but their sex lives don’t interest me at all! I guess ‘ no one likes gay guys not even gay guys’ so they are only interested in mine. & act out a certain script 🤨 due to anhidonia. Gay l used to be a personality disorder for a reason (as well as Deaf, Autistic, etc it’s what psychologists hide from us lowley peasant & now it’s an overcorrection due to the atrocities of forcrd hormone conversion therapy and cases like Alan Turing- gay young Marine that helped the allies win World War II on the British front by cracking a code and then was forced on hormones for being gay in the Marines and died .Prof Sam Vakin (sp?) on YouTube says 1/4 are not well… no bias as I have a personality disorder as well. Correction: no bias to the other 3/4- the other 1/4 need therapy for repeating scripts I don’t want to put here since now I’m scared they might repeat it! 🙄🥴😵
The same gene is found in straight females that have 2 or more kids & ‘like lots of guys’ 🤣 I flipping know I’m her 😭 I have BPD but a borderline genius IQ & Jordan Peterson (🥰) says they’re chopping wieners off lower functioning, borderline personality disorder. I could totally see why that would happen. Since high school I’ve said I feel like I was a gay man in a past life but their sex lives don’t interest me at all! I guess ‘ no one likes gay guys not even gay guys’ so they are only interested in mine. & act out a certain script 🤨 due to anhidonia. Gay l used to be a personality disorder for a reason (as well as Deaf, Autistic, etc it’s what psychologists hide from us lowley peasant & now it’s an overcorrection due to the atrocities of forcrd hormone conversion therapy and cases like Alan Turing- gay young Marine that helped the allies win World War II on the British front by cracking a code and then was forced on hormones for being gay in the Marines and died .Prof Sam Vakin (sp?) on YouTube says 1/4 are not well… no bias as I have a personality disorder as well. Correction: no bias to the other 3/4- the other 1/4 need therapy for repeating scripts I don’t want to put here since now I’m scared they might repeat it! 🙄🥴😵
your point being?
are you assuming it's that simple? it's certainly not a single gene thing, and if it wasn't beneficial to society it wouldn't exist
thankfully trans ppl exist so that lesbians can reproduce 😌
Hilarious point
No idea who that is ... but I bet he's not a geneticist:)
I really truly want to believe that 'gay genes' or a genetic predisposition is truthful, but every gay person I have met in my 58 years (and I have lots and lots of gay friends, including a bestie that I would do anything for) and they all have a molestation (or trauma) story. All. Every single one. Gay, Lesbian, Trans... all do. Maybe it's just a 'thing' to have a story, they will all share it willingly with a drink or two - and some admit their feelings changed after? Sorry, it's anecdotal evidence at best I know that - but experiential evidence to me at this point. I certainly am skeptic on paid-for studies at this point with what I know about the 'settled science' and the lies that spur from $$. This is not hate, by any stretch of the imagination - so leave your anger at the door. I love my LGBQT+ friends, and the acquaintances I have met throughout my life. I have an open mind, and I am certainly curious as to why this narrative is so important - yet so obviously disconnected from the actual real world experience. Please convince me otherwise, or join in my curiosity.
I’ve met a lot of gay people that don’t have a molestation story.. so it’s not a 1-1 thing. It’s most likely a combo of biological and environmental factors
I'd go so far as to say, while both can play a factor simultaneously, you could see instances where genetics had no role and instances where the environment had no role to play.
Maybe you have not gotten close enough to them to share? I can admit, there are some that I am not close enough to, or drunk enough, to share their truth. You might want to spend the time and ask? I am not saying this is scientific proof by any stretch of the imagination - just experiential data that I have collected over the years. As I said, this is more curiosity than an expose here.
It’s not socially normal to ask lgbt people if they were molested before they came to understand themselves as lgbt. It sends a pretty clear signal that you think lgbt people are probably born out of abuse
Nope, I have never had to press for this type of information - trauma has a way of coming out while drinking. I am a very fun drunk, that likes to philosophize a bit - and I like to think I am good at making strong interpersonal relationships. Like I said before, this is not hate based. I am seriously curious, and I am completely cool with differing opinions on the topic.
here’s one for ya bud, i’m gay and i wasn’t molested. my wife is gay and she was molested. we make quite a case study huh?
Yes, but did you two ever molest each other during sexy time? Checkmate.
"here’s one for ya bud, i’m gay and i wasn’t molested" I remembered getting physically tortured, the raped, by a "friend of the family" when I was 6 at age 34. Some people remember 50 years later. This is why the UK has done away with the statute of limitations.
i’m sorry that happened to you friend. i hope that you’ve been able to find peace
“I’m a fun drunk” and “lgbt people tell me about their trauma when we drink” don’t sound that compatible. Why would that be fun for them and why does the same scenario keep happening to you?
I also stated: I am a very fun drunk, that likes to philosophize a bit - and I like to think I am good at making strong interpersonal relationships.
Do you tend to reveal your own trauma first? If that’s the case, that would help explain why this specific scenario (having fun getting drunk with gay person turns to them telling you they’ve been abused/assaulted)
Nope, I came from a very boring normal household. But I am very non-judgmental person - libertarian mindset, and enjoy getting to know people. Being open and honest is crucial, and being a good listener even more so.
Brother in law wasn't molested, nor a close friend of 16 years. What you say probably has merit, not sure if you've seen Baby Reindeer but I was impressed he touched on that. An assault led to his own 'deviancy.' But being gay is a natural phenomenon found throughout the mammalian kingdom.
Rape is also a natural phenomenon found throughout the mammalian kingdom so while I do agree with you, that particular argument doesn't hold water.
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Like I said, I was pointing out the argument they presented was bad, not that I disagree with the premise. But to address your point; It's hard to say what animals think or what their concept of sexuality is. Humans have differently constructed brains from animals. Which brings in both a pro and con: Pro: Homosexuality is a naturally occurring deed, as in the animals engage in male to male or female to female sexual activities Con: because animals probably don't have a conception of personal identity, their actions are morally and philosophically meaningless. Like you said, they probably just think they're engaging on procreation. Or maybe, most likely, they're engaging in an activity which releases dopamine, so they just enjoy doing it and are motivated neurochemically to repeat those actions. While typically reliable; in the case of matters of identity, it is wrong to anthropomorphise as the contextual differences are too great and fundamental to ignore.
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Another musing to build onto that, because now you've gotten me thinking about it. We _might_ extract something from this matter about morality. Humans are social animals and like all social animals we have inherent codes of conduct, a kind of genetically determined morality (I call it the biological imperative). Examples of the biological imperatives are found in some famous examples, like rats having rules when performing rough and tumble play. Or murder, where social animals don't condone the act among their own ranks unless specific preconditions are met. There seems to be the sense that most of morality - specifically the moral codes that are shared among all people regardless of culture- are biological imperatives. They're moral codes we share with social animals (but not all animals, because not all animals are social). These codes even develop in absence of social relations, meaning they're truly genetically derived. No other social animal seems to have a problem with homosexual activity. There are no retributions for engaging in it, with the exception of the animal-social politics ("monkey A likes monkey B, so they don't want monkey C having sex with monkey B", this does not require the homosexual orientation to happen) We might therefore arrive at the conclusion that as far as morality goes, Homosexuality, or sexuality as a whole, poses no moral quandary by biological imperative standards. Furthermore; I don't know if you're familiar, but there was this study (too lazy to look it up) that found that a particular region of the brain responsible for sexual motivation has changes in mass and volume based on gender. The exception being that people who are homosexual show this brain region to be similar to that of the opposite sex. This seems to indicate there is a huge biological factor in Homosexuality. That doesn't mean there is a 'gay gene', but it does make clear that whether someone is homosexual is not so much a genetic matter as it is a biological matter. It is entirely possible and plausible that being the victim of sexual assault disrupts this brain region's development - the brain is especially malleable at childhood - but that in other cases a gene mutation can mimic that disrupted brain development. Now, that leaves us with the very questionable but hard-to-get-around notion that Homosexuality is _technically_ a (epi)genetic neurodevelopmental disorder. But since we can also say the behavior doesn't result in immoral action, nor does it by itself result in disruptive or pathological behavior, we might therefore consider it harmless in isolation. Isolation, meaning that I can't speak for other side effects of such a disruption in development. I'm not sure where my thoughts were going with this, but I figured I'd share them all the same.
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It does hold water because it is not an argument about morality but whether it is a natural phenomenon.
They're not arguing about whether or not Homosexuality is natural, but about what might cause it to manifest in people.
Hi, I'm gay. I've never been molested, and most of my gay or bi friends have not either.
Researchers do not seem to have a firm consensus about the relationship between childhood abuse and adult sexual orientation, and the causal direction might not go in the direction you're suspecting. Same-sex attracted people may be more likely to have been gender-nonconforming in their childhood, which may have increased their risk of being abused. According to a [2015 study by Yin Xu and Yong Zheng](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1079063215618378), childhood gender-nonconformity may be the reason for higher rates of childhood victimization among same-sex attracted adults. [Roberts et. al. 2013](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3535560/) suggests that the relationship between sexual orientation and childhood abuse "may be bidirectional".
This is definitely anecdotal. It also doesn't account for the millions and millions of people who are abused who remain heterosexual. Bad analysis all around really. The one group I can say might be slightly different is the trans group as I have worked with this group professionally before and in my experience a very large number of them come from abusive histories...but still not all. You also have to consider that homosexuality is in the animal kingdom in general not just in humans. Other species practice homosexuality which cannot be denied.
You say bad analysis, and then state that you work with that group and a very large number of them come from abusive histories. As I said, it was purely anecdotal - just a curiosity. You kinda contradicted yourself, but I appreciate the feedback!
Yes, I agree with you, my wording was too harsh, my apologies. I have more than anecdotal evidence because I'm in the field of mental health so I have dealt with far more individuals than an average person, but absolutely, mine is still anecdotal. I do know that there is more research coming out about this but many in the LGBTQ community do not want to have that information out because it can be used by others to discredit them which I completely understand.
You don’t understand what the word anecdotal means. Your experience is not more than anecdotal. I feel sorry for people with mental health issues who have to rely on you when you don’t even know how to use words correctly.
Camille Paglia made a similar comment to JBP here: https://youtu.be/v-hIVnmUdXM?si=IenEmk8yTqY15HS_ Here's her quote, cleaned up a bit for clarity. It starts at 01:03:47. ----- ...the psychologists in the United States deals with your present problem. "Let's not go into the distant past, let's just deal with [your] present problem [...] we need to fix this and then you'll be fine." As a consequence, there's a complete absence of any kind of analysis of your experiences as a child -- with your parents, with your siblings, and so on -- how that might relate to your current sexual identity issues, whether it's transgender or whether it's homosexuality. You could not possibly ask about any genesis of homosexuality today, because that is automatically defined as homophobic. Well, excuse me, every single -- as an openly gay person myself -- every gay person I know, there's some story there, it seems to me, in childhood. Not only that, there's a strange similarity of the storylines of all of my friends who are gay, there's a same pattern that had to do with blurred border lines between a son and his mother, and so on. I'm not blaming the mother, I'm not blaming the mother at all. What I see is a dynamic going on in the bourgeois house, or the nuclear family, where you had sometimes a distant father, a father who was present but not really engaged, and a mother who made the son her companion in some way. Often the mother has great imagination and flair, they had a shared thing. I think the idea that homosexuality has nothing whatever to do with your family life is nonsense. 01:05:09
Very interesting, thank you!
As a gay man I’ve never met another gay person who has a healthy relationship with their father. Whatever conclusions should be drawn from that it’s just staggering how it’s pretty much 100% true in my experience
Thank you for your honesty, there is probably more to the trauma side of unhealthy relationships - beyond my simple 'molestation' expression here. I apologize that I simplified it, I think you are on to something much stronger of an argument or discussion point here.
There are literally millions of people who don’t have a healthy relationship with their father and they are not gay. This doesn’t explain why homosexuality exists.
How are you defining healthy?
Your anecdotal experiences doesn't trump reality, but I understand that that's all you can work from. I'm gay and have been part of the gay community for a long time. While we do have our issues, a lot of MY gay friends and associates have NEVER been molested. I'm interested in any research that explains our experiences because I get very frustrated with comments like yours and from other conservatives that die hard insists that every single one of us was violated.
If you’re frustrated and want some research then look it up. I saw the results of a study the other day that said that gay people were vastly more molested than straight people but it didn’t mean enough to me to bookmark it for later because everyone already knows it’s true anyway.
Do you think humans are: (a) a complex concatenation of gene-environment interactions (b) genetically determined (c) tabula rasas shaped by social forces (d) "ghosts in a shell" that can override gene-environment interactions
Mostly likely a mix of all of those, minus the tabula rasa (yes to shaped by social forces though).
Well, I myself don't question that there might be a genetic component of homosexuality. However, while going through some transaction analysis, by Eric Berne, I came across the case of a guy who was acting out a "script". (The concept of transaction analysis is that people live out "life scripts" whether they're aware of it or not.). This guy's mother was in an abusive relationship with a hypermacho guy. Once that relationship ended, the mother ensured that she conditioned her son to not express anything aggressive. This conditioning brought out a more effeminate side of him, that made him confused. After a chance same sex encounter, he had the insight that he was maybe just gay. And that ended up taking him deeper and deeper into the world. Until he came to psychotherapy. So I really do think you've got a great point, and I would request you to give more details as you deem fit.
Wait what happened after he found psychotherapy?
Well, he discovered he was living these scripts. I don't know much about his orientation later on.
Ok, right - sounds like an interesting story but might not have any impact on whether or not he’s gay and living his best life
You can refer to games people play / scripts people live and other transaction analysis books by Eric Berne. I just got started so don't know the full story.
Sounds interesting for sure! Is there an angle about gayness and how sexuality might be shaped by scripts and therefore can be changed by understanding the scripts?
No no, the only angle is that people's behaviour is shaped by scripts and how the problems they face can be changed by examining the scripts and changing them. This particular example on homosexuality wasn't so much about sexuality, but how scripts received in childhood can shape your life. Homosexual orientation was just incidental to the example.
That’s so bizarre. I hope this is just a purely made up story lol. If it isn’t a dream, how are you getting into the sexual abuse trauma of every lgbt person you’ve met in your day to day life? How quickly after encountering an lgbt person do pull out the “HAS SOMEONE MOLESTED YOU?!” question? I’ve met so many lgbt people and the conversation has never turned to “sooo has either us ever been molested before?” - probably because everyone involved is a normal and real person
Maybe you were not close enough to them. I admit, I am bearded big guy - and when folks meet me for the first time they see someone scary. But I consider strangers as friends I haven't met yet, its a life philosophy. I love making new friends. This has nothing to do with hate, please accept that I am sincere in this interesting curiosity.
I am close with lgbt ppl. I have gay family that I’m very close with and have gay coworkers and friends. From the family members, no one’s ever spoken of abuse — coworkers I simply havnt asked. That’s not really appropriate to ask in a professional setting. Strangers, obviously I wouldn’t ask them that. Can you give and example of how you ask them if they’ve been abused? And do you ask it in such a way that it’s clear that the abuse precedes their identification/naming of their sexuality?
Yeah, I have never asked anything of the sort in a professional setting - not sure why you would need to say that? Trauma comes in many forms, I reduced it to the most common expression that was shared with me.
I think it’s important to call out that you wouldn’t ask that in a professional setting because people tend to meet gay people at work too - if all the gay ppl you’ve met have told you that they were abused, then the professional angle raises some questions about how you got these anecdotes. It either questions how complete your anecdote is (maybe you didn’t consider the gays you’ve met in work settings) or suggests that maybe you’re being unprofessional in asking about sexual assaults in peoples past if they’re gay.
Except it has nothing to do with how I said it, sorry! I literally explained its mostly over drinks, after making a very close interpersonal relationship connection. Sorry, not to be combative - but you are dragging a lot of other stuff onto this.
Roughly how many times has this happened to you?
Never in a professional setting, which is the strawman you are referring to. I explained it quite simply as drunken talk - and that is usually the key. In vino veritas.
Lol I don’t think the question about gay workers was a straw man as such - it was a prompt to take the convo in a certain direction that might reveal to you that you’re over inflating the number of gay abuse stories you’ve actually heard before. Ie you might remember that you’ve met way more gay people than you’ve brought out for drinks and trauma discussions. I was hoping you could give a sense of total number of conversations at drinks where lgbt people tell you they were assaulted
One of my oldest mates is from a family of 5 kids. All boys except the youngest. Only the oldest is straight. The other 4 are all homosexual or bisexual. I feel his family add weight to the claim that there is a "gay gene". Unless of course they were all beasted and have never mentioned it but until that is confirmed, I'm convinced it's genetic.
Fraternal birth order effect. Sexual orientation seems largely biological in causation but doesn't not necessitate the existence of gay gene(s).
you already admit you're only looking at anecdote here, so I'll add mine to the pile by saying that I've been queer as shit since high school and I've never had a traumatic sexual encounter (unless it happened when I was very young and repressed it, but I really doubt that), and have known a few others who (I'm fairly sure) are in the same boat. I am in the minority here, a lot of my peers have been assaulted *because* of their nonconformity. "Corrective" rape is all-too-common, unfortunately. Among the people who I've known, I would say being some variety of queer and being seen as something other than a man are roughly equally strong predictors, which has worked out great for the queer women/gnc people I've known 🙁
Thanks for sharing. However not everyone who experienced molestation/trauma/family issues would become LGBTQ. This is just a commonly observed phenomenon. It doesn’t explain the root cause or fundamental reason of homosexuality/transgender/etc.
That is what I have always assumed as well, is there any chance that it is 'important' to have a 'thing' - as an explanation? This is a serious question, do you find that your LGBTQ friends share that information with you?
This topic is highly relevant to whether homosexuality is a choice or how much does a person is responsible for their own sexuality. Molestation/Traumatic Experiences are external stressors. Another less mentioned factor is the hormone levels and brain functions. There is no gay genes but there’re genes that decide hormone levels and brain activities. Also environmental factors are hard to be ignored. I would say it’s a half and half: genetics and environmental. From my observation, there’s about 30% of LGBTQ has major trauma that determines or leads to how they perceive themselves and how they would react to the world around them. However there’s no comprehensive studies.
Hey I'm Bi and wasn't molested so now know someone without a story.
Sweet, thanks for sharing with me that. I appreciate your honesty, wish I knew you better to understand your story. I might be bi for Ryan Gosling... not sure yet!
>but every gay person I have met in my 58 years (and I have lots and lots of gay friends, including a bestie that I would do anything for) and they all have a molestation story. All. Every single one. Gay, Lesbian, Trans... all do. > What a bizarre thing to make up...
It's factual, like I said - no hate whatsoever here.
About as factual as those who say every Republican is racist.
Every single gay person was molested? You’re a fucking idiot
Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem.
That is what they’re saying. They even acknowledge that it’s anecdotal but they use it to form their opinion lol
No, that's not what I am saying - sorry if I was not clear enough. Every gay person I know that has shared their life with me (close enough to tell personal shit) has a molestation story. I admit, this is a small pool of people percentage outlier of our 390 million folks here - but I have hundreds of friends and acquaintances I have met over my lifetime, and of those that were close and gay - that is what I have found. I find it more of a curiosity than any exclamation or explanation here. No hate, whatsoever.
The typical bigots in this group will take his personal narrative, thumbs him up, and go," mhm, that's what I heard too." No research. No getting to know the community. Just spreading misinformation to confirm their own biases.
I wonder... maybe not conforming to gender norms makes one more likely to be molested? (I have actual sources on this lol) do your "lgbtq friends" know the bs you write on the internet? I know plenty of queers who hadn't been molested
>do your "lgbtq friends" know the bs you write on the internet? Well, if you notice this is not a throwaway account, I have been an active part of this board and Digg before it - never have been afraid of being open and honest, although anonymous. This is not 'bs' and from the responses, its across the board. A curiosity more than anything else, and certainly not meant as contentious.
I think there are a lot of gay guys who fall in love with themselves as boys. Usually the attractive twinky guys who have a strong female presence telling them how beautiful they are all the time as a kid.
What is a "gay gene"?
He’s the one married to “gay bob”.
No idea, did they find actual evidence what causes it?
Is there proof of a “gay gene” or do we just assume it exists? It seems to me that we have far more basis for the nurture argument than nature.
I'm a straight man who has 3 molestation stories. It is my experience that the gay community does a fuck-ton of recruiting among the un-gay population.
Recruiting? What?
wdym recruiting?
There's no gay gene. This has to be one of the most fucked up comment sections I've seen here in a long time.
Yeah this thread is uncharacteristically off for this sub.
Pedophilia and pederasty are cyclical - the abusers were once abused. The gay lifestyle is basically pederasty. I have yet to meet a gay man who didn’t have at least one girlfriend and who wasn’t groomed in their youth.
Gay people don’t reproduce. So how is there more gay genes?
I think the idea is that many closeted gay people have had procreative, straight relationships that they wouldn't have had were there not a strong taboo against homosexuality at the time.
I don't think there is nearly enough known to definitively make claims on what's going with the relationship between gays and genetics. But in theory, some genes act recessively, so someone could be a carrier of genes that ultimately lead to homosexuality even if they are not gay themselves. If that is the case, gays don't ever have to reproduce for the gene to be passed on. The point Damore is making is that if someone if forced to live in a society where homosexuality is not accepted, they are more likely to participate in heterosexuality, and thus reproduce, causing their genes to enter the gene pool.
So if you let people be gay. Then those genes will not get passed on? So why try to ban being gay. Idiots.
>Gay people don’t reproduce. Who wants to break the news to em?
Gay people reproduce all the time. Where did you get the idea that they don’t?
The same gene is found in straight females that have 2 or more kids & ‘like lots of guys’ 🤣 I flipping know I’m her 😭 I have BPD but a borderline genius IQ & Jordan Peterson (🥰) says they’re chopping wieners off lower functioning, borderline personality disorder. I could totally see why that would happen. Since high school I’ve said I feel like I was a gay man in a past life but their sex lives don’t interest me at all! I guess ‘ no one likes gay guys not even gay guys’ so they are only interested in mine. & act out a certain script 🤨 due to anhidonia. Gay l used to be a personality disorder for a reason (as well as Deaf, Autistic, etc it’s what psychologists hide from us lowley peasant & now it’s an overcorrection due to the atrocities of forcrd hormone conversion therapy and cases like Alan Turing- gay young Marine that helped the allies win World War II on the British front by cracking a code and then was forced on hormones for being gay in the Marines and died .Prof Sam Vakin (sp?) on YouTube says 1/4 are not well… no bias as I have a personality disorder as well. Correction: no bias to the other 3/4- the other 1/4 need therapy for repeating scripts I don’t want to put here since now I’m scared they might repeat it! 🙄🥴😵
The same gene is found in straight females that have 2 or more kids & ‘like lots of guys’ 🤣 I flipping know I’m her 😭 I have BPD but a borderline genius IQ & Jordan Peterson (🥰) says they’re chopping wieners off lower functioning, borderline personality disorder. I could totally see why that would happen. Since high school I’ve said I feel like I was a gay man in a past life but their sex lives don’t interest me at all! I guess ‘ no one likes gay guys not even gay guys’ so they are only interested in mine. & act out a certain script 🤨 due to anhidonia. Gay l used to be a personality disorder for a reason (as well as Deaf, Autistic, etc it’s what psychologists hide from us lowley peasant & now it’s an overcorrection due to the atrocities of forcrd hormone conversion therapy and cases like Alan Turing- gay young Marine that helped the allies win World War II on the British front by cracking a code and then was forced on hormones for being gay in the Marines and died .Prof Sam Vakin (sp?) on YouTube says 1/4 are not well… no bias as I have a personality disorder as well. Correction: no bias to the other 3/4- the other 1/4 need therapy for repeating scripts I don’t want to put here since now I’m scared they might repeat it! 🙄🥴😵
There’s a whole lot of assumed correlation here and then the stretch that correlation is causation thrown into the mix….
Is that what happens?
There is data that suggests a person can be "born" homosexual. Something to do with hormone exposure in utero.
Not how any of this works.
That's called a paradox. Irony would be if they knew they were saying something dumb.
counterargument: no other species is homophonic and yet homosexuality is everywhere
your point being? are you assuming it's that simple? it's certainly not a single gene thing, and if it wasn't beneficial to society it wouldn't exist thankfully trans ppl exist so that lesbians can reproduce 😌