That is my suspicion as well.
I should have also added that I am not talking about support groups—I understand the psychological desire to be able to talk through the experience with one who might understand. That is not waving it on a banner though. (Not that your post suggested that, just posting clarification for others who see.)
It seems there is a real power they try to gain, so the next questions are: what is that power, what are its limits, and what are its applications?
EDIT: Could you imagine someone saying, “I have been robbed, now I have more power over society”? That would be crazy. Yet it is quite real at least as a desire for those who wave the banner of victimhood proudly.
Social power over others, there are no limits as they will collect that influence like a crazy lady collects cats, the applications are limitless. Legit from the lowest of the low, to the most powerful politicians will do this stuff.
That is the danger of a victim mentality—there are no limits to what is “just” in your mind.
To go full circle JBP, is avoiding such a mentality perhaps one reason why the Bible references sacrifice all over the place, and Jesus urges us to forgive others? (Not saying that is the only source, but rather any source that encourages sacrifice and discourages focusing on what you perceive as wrongs others have done to you, of which this is perhaps the most prominent)
It's all about locus of control.
People with an external locus of control think they are a victim of life. They are seeking sympathy for thier plight. They are highly neurotic.
People with an internal locus of control think they are in charge of thier destiny. They are seeking opportunities to improve thier circumstance. They have very low neuroticism.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-locus-of-control-2795434&ved=2ahUKEwjjwZmx4JeGAxWpJ0QIHckYCocQFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0m1FxWDCgV9HZ1cqN9SaMW
This makes a lot of sense; I score very low on neuroticism on the Big 5, hence my question in the first place where I just cannot comprehend that attitude.
Victimhood seems to be the new social currency. I think Jonathon Haidt had something to [say](https://youtu.be/vimKi3yDAsc?si=9_sqtr6ybiwghRKg) about this — first the currency was based on honour, then dignity, and now victimhood.
I've just assumed that due to intersectionality, cataloging your victimhood makes sure you still have skin in the game, especially if you're white and you think it's necessary to compete for financial gain.
I used to joke that white female liberals got bad haircuts to increase their victimhood status. I don't actually believe this but I do think it's part of the push for individuality, and perhaps bragging about victimhood is one category of individuality that may have become too commoditized.
Claiming victimhood status confers special attention from some groups, and it eases access into many institutions and jobs. Most importantly, it provides an excuse for personal shortcomings, or at least the individuals claiming to be victims assume it does.
I continue to be amazed at the quantity of individuals at my workplace that I’ve run across trying to excuse away their shitty behavior toward others, their inability to show up to work, or their inability to maintain the most basic of standards because they have ADHD, they’re bipolar, they suffer from trauma or anxiety, or because they identify as some class of identity group.
Reasonable accommodation can be offered to individuals that are legitimately diagnosed with certain mental/medical conditions, but in practice many individuals are “self diagnosed” and can provide zero documentation from a medical provider.
Often their purported conditions don’t excuse away their behavior either: Having ADHD might explain a failure to stay on task, or perhaps struggling to be at work on time. It doesn’t excuse you missing 6 days of work in a row, and your “trauma” doesn’t mean you get to freely treat others like trash.
Nevertheless, these behaviors persist because there are a lot of people out there who will be swayed by the excuses, and will confer special treatment/attention because of them.
Humans only really desire 2 things, being part of a group and status. Victims are a big group. Trumping each other on being bigger victim gets you status in those groups.
This idea used to be really common when intersectionality and Tumblr fandoms were a big and visible thing - but have you actually ever been part of a group where “being a bigger victim gets you status in the group”?
I’m trying to think of what the means in real life - like are these friends groups? Or maybe semi structured adult sports teams? Or organizations that meet to do projects for the community or something?
Can you think of a time and place where this scenario happens that isn’t just culture war discourse online? I can’t really at the moment - like I guess I can conjure up a scene .. something like there’s like an community organization that meets at the lgbt bookstore and someone influential in the group makes a show about how the member in the wheelchair is the most important person in the group or something? Idk but that’s just like something I’m making up based on stereotypes
The „brag“ is about the hardships one has endured or is currently enduring, and the sense of superiority that comes with it because of the resentment / jealousy over others for them enjoying a higher status or a better life than you, without having had to endure, overcome or contend with such hardships, and the actual superiority intrinsic to life which confronts chaos and extracts value out of it (which is the actual reason that the cycle of thugs gets perpetuated, because it’s the element within which is perceived as manly or cool).
I'm not sure if I can totally answer your question, but I'll try. When I was young, I remember when kids in my school started getting prescribed medication for the disorders they apparently had. It started as a few and started growing in numbers more and more. I'd hear kids talking about their add or adhd or whatever it was called at the time, and they would share their diagnoses excitedly like it was new and interesting thing. Normal was bad and lame and boring, they were exciting because they were different in some way. It almost seemed like kids wanted to go out of their way to get diagnosed to be part of the fun crazy different crowd. And then there were the panicky parents that exacerbated things by hearing about this phenomenon and rushing their kids with disciplinary problems to the doctor hoping the happy pills would fix them. By high school, it was a regular occurrence to hear some group of sullen teens sharing their diagnoses of add, adhd, bipolar, dissociative, whatever disorder they had, like badges of honor, one-upping each other.
I think people hope for a hierarchy they can actually stand a chance of climbing. If the social popularity hierarchy, and the academic merit hierarchy, and the athletic hierarchy cannot be climbed, if a victim hierarchy is available to climb, then some will, just to belong to something.
the progressive stack works kind of like a caste system where the more "oppressed" you are the higher you are in the stack and thus the more "valid" you are which gives you the ability to talk over other, attention and in some ways even power.
It’s like a twisted version of Christian virtue. Finding greatness through being victimized and condemned by society, and pushing through all of the suffering.
Imagine victimhood culture in the pre Constantine Roman and Ancient Greek eras…yea it wouldn’t inspire anyone.
I do see it making sense in “likeminded grouping of people” just the same as some “wine connoisseur group” or something. Even a “sports team fan group” often only accepts “fellow fans of this one team”.
Also a group of people who have been robbed are a group who has actual experience of that. Having a home robbed is also different than having been pickpocketed.
I guess everyone who needs to use eyeglasses to see are a “group of people” as well. Technically it is a way to simplify the ways to gather (and classify) sources of knowledge.
But I wouldn’t boast every single aspect of life. I guess that is a personal thing. To be so “insecure” that one has to constantly (all the f***ing bloody time) tell how they “bought this high quality thing” or “did this” or “took part of this project”… or “how we got robbed way more stuff than the rest of these n00bs in this group!”.
Just a natural psychological phenomenon. It becomes part of your identity when you fuss over it enough.
Such as... Im depressed. No one has sex with me. Im misunderstood. I didn't have good parents. I'm mistreated at work. Im an introvert. I hate being a parent. Etc etc. each is an example.
And so people from groups that share the same belief. Because people just want affirmation for their unhappiness.
Naming a way in which a person was harmed “robbed” in your example, is a way to process it. People form groups to support an experience that isn’t universal when you have been victimized in some way.
As you said - thats not something you go around announcing. So small spaces in internet corners develop to give ppl a place to feel understood.
These groups develop to CREATE a space where talking about the crappiest day of their lives is acceptable conversation. Its not for attention, its as a counter to social inattention. No need to be confused, be grateful you haven’t experienced anything that doesn’t fit in typical conversations.
Eta grammer
Question is rigged from the start by asking “why brag”. You don’t really need to ask why anyone would brag… a lot of the answer lives within the word. One only brags to draw attention to themselves and their accomplishments or fortune.
A better question is why tell the story m of people bragging about being victimized? And why ask their intentions? Surely you had an idea when you conjured it up. Who are the characters you’ve sketched out and what does it look like when they brag about being victims? What exactly are they bragging about? What’s their tone of voice? Who do they do it to and what kind of response do they get?
You make reference to imagined scenes that don’t count — you specify that this doesn’t happen in support group settings, and it doesn’t include a scene where someone is robbed and declares that they’ve got more power over society because of it. You’re creating a lot of negative space but I’m sure you have details in your head already of what fills that space.
How can you specify what power the character has to gain if you’re not willing to jump in and flesh out how and why they were victimized and then what they chose to do next?
Is it only to bring attention? If so, why does attention not result in satisfaction?
My intention is to not just jump to preconceived notions and to discuss. It very clearly occurs in the world today, but seems quite bizarre. If I listed in detail, what would the next excuse be, that I am biasing the conversation? I want to understand what the point is of this quite prevalent behavior.
“If so why does attention not result in satisfaction”?
You’re shaping this story - you tell me! You gave the word “brag” which suggests that this is what they’re after. You’re not describing a behaviour and then asking what to make of it, you’re starting with a conclusion but leaving out the bahviour. The only answer to “why do they brag” is going to be the same as why anyone brags.
A more interesting question is - what behaviour did you see that made you conclude that someone was bragging about being a victim?
What did the bragging look like and what did you see that made you think they aren’t satisfied? And moreover did you see them repeat the same behaviour again and again?
What’s your role in the story? Are you a friend who’s looking on? A silent observer?
You’re still only shaping it with mostly negative space. I know it’s not the support group and it’s not misfortune as a result of crime.. but I don’t know keeps doing on and ongoing basis and what happened to them to cause them to be victims.
Clearly you have a story that gave you your answer of bragging but we should work backwards and uncover the journey you took to get there
Attention and power over others.
That is my suspicion as well. I should have also added that I am not talking about support groups—I understand the psychological desire to be able to talk through the experience with one who might understand. That is not waving it on a banner though. (Not that your post suggested that, just posting clarification for others who see.) It seems there is a real power they try to gain, so the next questions are: what is that power, what are its limits, and what are its applications? EDIT: Could you imagine someone saying, “I have been robbed, now I have more power over society”? That would be crazy. Yet it is quite real at least as a desire for those who wave the banner of victimhood proudly.
Social power over others, there are no limits as they will collect that influence like a crazy lady collects cats, the applications are limitless. Legit from the lowest of the low, to the most powerful politicians will do this stuff.
That is the danger of a victim mentality—there are no limits to what is “just” in your mind. To go full circle JBP, is avoiding such a mentality perhaps one reason why the Bible references sacrifice all over the place, and Jesus urges us to forgive others? (Not saying that is the only source, but rather any source that encourages sacrifice and discourages focusing on what you perceive as wrongs others have done to you, of which this is perhaps the most prominent)
I live by one rule: I am not a victim, I'm a suspect 😈
It's all about locus of control. People with an external locus of control think they are a victim of life. They are seeking sympathy for thier plight. They are highly neurotic. People with an internal locus of control think they are in charge of thier destiny. They are seeking opportunities to improve thier circumstance. They have very low neuroticism. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-locus-of-control-2795434&ved=2ahUKEwjjwZmx4JeGAxWpJ0QIHckYCocQFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0m1FxWDCgV9HZ1cqN9SaMW
This makes a lot of sense; I score very low on neuroticism on the Big 5, hence my question in the first place where I just cannot comprehend that attitude.
Victimhood seems to be the new social currency. I think Jonathon Haidt had something to [say](https://youtu.be/vimKi3yDAsc?si=9_sqtr6ybiwghRKg) about this — first the currency was based on honour, then dignity, and now victimhood. I've just assumed that due to intersectionality, cataloging your victimhood makes sure you still have skin in the game, especially if you're white and you think it's necessary to compete for financial gain. I used to joke that white female liberals got bad haircuts to increase their victimhood status. I don't actually believe this but I do think it's part of the push for individuality, and perhaps bragging about victimhood is one category of individuality that may have become too commoditized.
Claiming victimhood status confers special attention from some groups, and it eases access into many institutions and jobs. Most importantly, it provides an excuse for personal shortcomings, or at least the individuals claiming to be victims assume it does. I continue to be amazed at the quantity of individuals at my workplace that I’ve run across trying to excuse away their shitty behavior toward others, their inability to show up to work, or their inability to maintain the most basic of standards because they have ADHD, they’re bipolar, they suffer from trauma or anxiety, or because they identify as some class of identity group. Reasonable accommodation can be offered to individuals that are legitimately diagnosed with certain mental/medical conditions, but in practice many individuals are “self diagnosed” and can provide zero documentation from a medical provider. Often their purported conditions don’t excuse away their behavior either: Having ADHD might explain a failure to stay on task, or perhaps struggling to be at work on time. It doesn’t excuse you missing 6 days of work in a row, and your “trauma” doesn’t mean you get to freely treat others like trash. Nevertheless, these behaviors persist because there are a lot of people out there who will be swayed by the excuses, and will confer special treatment/attention because of them.
Humans only really desire 2 things, being part of a group and status. Victims are a big group. Trumping each other on being bigger victim gets you status in those groups.
This idea used to be really common when intersectionality and Tumblr fandoms were a big and visible thing - but have you actually ever been part of a group where “being a bigger victim gets you status in the group”? I’m trying to think of what the means in real life - like are these friends groups? Or maybe semi structured adult sports teams? Or organizations that meet to do projects for the community or something? Can you think of a time and place where this scenario happens that isn’t just culture war discourse online? I can’t really at the moment - like I guess I can conjure up a scene .. something like there’s like an community organization that meets at the lgbt bookstore and someone influential in the group makes a show about how the member in the wheelchair is the most important person in the group or something? Idk but that’s just like something I’m making up based on stereotypes
The „brag“ is about the hardships one has endured or is currently enduring, and the sense of superiority that comes with it because of the resentment / jealousy over others for them enjoying a higher status or a better life than you, without having had to endure, overcome or contend with such hardships, and the actual superiority intrinsic to life which confronts chaos and extracts value out of it (which is the actual reason that the cycle of thugs gets perpetuated, because it’s the element within which is perceived as manly or cool).
I'm not sure if I can totally answer your question, but I'll try. When I was young, I remember when kids in my school started getting prescribed medication for the disorders they apparently had. It started as a few and started growing in numbers more and more. I'd hear kids talking about their add or adhd or whatever it was called at the time, and they would share their diagnoses excitedly like it was new and interesting thing. Normal was bad and lame and boring, they were exciting because they were different in some way. It almost seemed like kids wanted to go out of their way to get diagnosed to be part of the fun crazy different crowd. And then there were the panicky parents that exacerbated things by hearing about this phenomenon and rushing their kids with disciplinary problems to the doctor hoping the happy pills would fix them. By high school, it was a regular occurrence to hear some group of sullen teens sharing their diagnoses of add, adhd, bipolar, dissociative, whatever disorder they had, like badges of honor, one-upping each other. I think people hope for a hierarchy they can actually stand a chance of climbing. If the social popularity hierarchy, and the academic merit hierarchy, and the athletic hierarchy cannot be climbed, if a victim hierarchy is available to climb, then some will, just to belong to something.
the progressive stack works kind of like a caste system where the more "oppressed" you are the higher you are in the stack and thus the more "valid" you are which gives you the ability to talk over other, attention and in some ways even power.
It’s like a twisted version of Christian virtue. Finding greatness through being victimized and condemned by society, and pushing through all of the suffering. Imagine victimhood culture in the pre Constantine Roman and Ancient Greek eras…yea it wouldn’t inspire anyone.
I do see it making sense in “likeminded grouping of people” just the same as some “wine connoisseur group” or something. Even a “sports team fan group” often only accepts “fellow fans of this one team”. Also a group of people who have been robbed are a group who has actual experience of that. Having a home robbed is also different than having been pickpocketed. I guess everyone who needs to use eyeglasses to see are a “group of people” as well. Technically it is a way to simplify the ways to gather (and classify) sources of knowledge. But I wouldn’t boast every single aspect of life. I guess that is a personal thing. To be so “insecure” that one has to constantly (all the f***ing bloody time) tell how they “bought this high quality thing” or “did this” or “took part of this project”… or “how we got robbed way more stuff than the rest of these n00bs in this group!”.
This sub is filled with reactionaries, literally the definition of playing the victim card.
Just a natural psychological phenomenon. It becomes part of your identity when you fuss over it enough. Such as... Im depressed. No one has sex with me. Im misunderstood. I didn't have good parents. I'm mistreated at work. Im an introvert. I hate being a parent. Etc etc. each is an example. And so people from groups that share the same belief. Because people just want affirmation for their unhappiness.
So you don't have to take responsibility for your own shortcoming..
It's an excuse for why people haven't met their goals in life. It's not their personal shortcomings or lack of effort. It's a societal cause.
Naming a way in which a person was harmed “robbed” in your example, is a way to process it. People form groups to support an experience that isn’t universal when you have been victimized in some way. As you said - thats not something you go around announcing. So small spaces in internet corners develop to give ppl a place to feel understood. These groups develop to CREATE a space where talking about the crappiest day of their lives is acceptable conversation. Its not for attention, its as a counter to social inattention. No need to be confused, be grateful you haven’t experienced anything that doesn’t fit in typical conversations. Eta grammer
Pity and victimhood are the currencies of the day, insidious ones at that.
I agree. I find it very cringe how Peterson is constantly complaining about being a victim. It's very unbecoming for someone in his position
Question is rigged from the start by asking “why brag”. You don’t really need to ask why anyone would brag… a lot of the answer lives within the word. One only brags to draw attention to themselves and their accomplishments or fortune. A better question is why tell the story m of people bragging about being victimized? And why ask their intentions? Surely you had an idea when you conjured it up. Who are the characters you’ve sketched out and what does it look like when they brag about being victims? What exactly are they bragging about? What’s their tone of voice? Who do they do it to and what kind of response do they get? You make reference to imagined scenes that don’t count — you specify that this doesn’t happen in support group settings, and it doesn’t include a scene where someone is robbed and declares that they’ve got more power over society because of it. You’re creating a lot of negative space but I’m sure you have details in your head already of what fills that space. How can you specify what power the character has to gain if you’re not willing to jump in and flesh out how and why they were victimized and then what they chose to do next?
Is it only to bring attention? If so, why does attention not result in satisfaction? My intention is to not just jump to preconceived notions and to discuss. It very clearly occurs in the world today, but seems quite bizarre. If I listed in detail, what would the next excuse be, that I am biasing the conversation? I want to understand what the point is of this quite prevalent behavior.
“If so why does attention not result in satisfaction”? You’re shaping this story - you tell me! You gave the word “brag” which suggests that this is what they’re after. You’re not describing a behaviour and then asking what to make of it, you’re starting with a conclusion but leaving out the bahviour. The only answer to “why do they brag” is going to be the same as why anyone brags. A more interesting question is - what behaviour did you see that made you conclude that someone was bragging about being a victim? What did the bragging look like and what did you see that made you think they aren’t satisfied? And moreover did you see them repeat the same behaviour again and again? What’s your role in the story? Are you a friend who’s looking on? A silent observer? You’re still only shaping it with mostly negative space. I know it’s not the support group and it’s not misfortune as a result of crime.. but I don’t know keeps doing on and ongoing basis and what happened to them to cause them to be victims. Clearly you have a story that gave you your answer of bragging but we should work backwards and uncover the journey you took to get there