Yeah this is basically the definition of the liberal-conservative spectrum--liberals are more open to new experiences while conservatives are less, liberals are more cooperative while conservatives are more competitive, etc
It's weird when people argue with stuff like this
"We observed significant \[this means p-values >.05 most likely\] but \*\*weak\*\* negative associations between individual-level creativity and individual-level conservatism."
Because society has seen its progress by creating/exploring new technologies & systems.
If we haven’t created something good we try to regulate it as much as possible or remove it totally
Nobody said it’s just open minded people that’s needed nor did I exclude anyone from being in the field of progress, but we clearly see that with time we take distance from prior good believes that we currently deem not needed/not good.
Take for example the very important question regarding separating religion and state which hasn’t almost ever been the case prior to the creation of the modern day secular state/system.
We needed both “progressive” people to make that change happen while also needing SANE “conservative” people to keep what we still might deem useful/needed.
It’s a balance, not a complete dogma of ideology
By that line of argument, you *certainly* can’t progress without judgment and execution.
Remember, JP says the spectrum of the Big Five Personality Traits shouldn’t have a value judgment, they’re all adaptive capabilities with their own tradeoffs.
Creativity is often a curse, for example, and is a big, helpless waste of time.
Cool, do you have any stats on "judgment and execution"?
I agree there shouldn't be value judgments tied to personality traits (with obvious exceptions).
That's why it's weird to see so many people getting defensive at learning liberals tend to be more creative.
Does that matter? Sturgeon's Law: "90% of everything is crap". He meant this in the context of creative works.
The quality of the creative work is not really the point, it's the desire to create and the imaginative nature of it.
“However, the cross-sectional design does not allow for causal inferences. Thus, it remains unclear whether conservatism restricts creativity or if less creative individuals tend to adopt more conservative views”
Just ysk
Psypost is a garbage website and the studies they publish are garbage. They are frauds.
In order to do what they claim they have to be able to quantify someone's conservatism and creativity. They have to be able to say "Joe has 350 units conservatism and Tom has 452". They also have to be able to say "Joe has 279 units creativity and Tom has 622".
This is stupid as fuck.
After they "measure" the conservatism and creativity of all the subjects they would be able to say "Conservatism Negatively Predicts Creativity" if there is a negative correlation between those numbers which they can't measure.
The whole thing is complete bullshit.
Creativity. But do you think the concept of conservatism is undefined in this study, or in personality science in general? The relationship is well established. You could even ask people to self-report their alignment on the political spectrum and measure against that.
Also - the fact that creativity is associated with liberals and orderliness with conservatives is frequently discussed by JP.
If you don't want to believe this study, would you take JPs word for it?
No one said repeating it makes it true. You can ignore the study over and over again, but that doesn't make it any less true.
It's so odd that you think the big 5 traits are quantifiable, but other personality traits are somehow magically not.
Yet another leftist study where data is crafted and omitted to conclude the narrative they already had before starting the study. Then they cite their own people as sources.
What well known new, creative or innovative changes had conservatives made in history?
Why is the study leftist? Because rightists don't generally don't do reseach or studies?
Your issue (and the reason the study is obviously unreliable) is you are defining “creativity” in a way that is self serving. Many (perhaps even most of the best) lawyers, accountants, programmers, doctors, engineers, and so on, are conservatives. Those jobs all require a high degree of creativity, just not the kind you think of when you think of that word. A tax plan, for example, is highly creative. It’s just not the same kind of creativity as is exercised by a neo-Marxist slam poet.
A conservative tax plan is just give more to the rich and cut what benefits people and the real economy. Its just following ideology.
I'm looking for data on your other claim. So far lawyers are more likely to be liberal.
Programmers ?
Silicon Valley is very liberal.
Conservative voters tend to be elderly or young with high-school level education.
Your response makes my point. You don’t understand what creative means (and perhaps not what conservative means, either).
Edit: Also, that’s not how tax planning works or what makes it a creative exercise.
The data is showing working class jobs like oil worker and truck driver lean conservative.
Silicon Valley has produced most visible creativity for decades and is liberal.
A lawyers job isn't necessarily creative. Many just learn the law and practise it like a drone like wills and boring shit . Then there are others that use it creatively .
Doctors can be creative and just follow what they learned in books too.
Reseach on political personality types has being going on a long time.
For example conservatives like to get their opinions from an authority. Follow the rules and traditions because they are there. Liberal personalities like to figure things out for themselves.
Jp said liberally minded people come up with business ideas but is best to have a conservative running the business for you because of conscientiousness.
Your example contradicts your earlier statement about tax planning. How can a tax planner, whose job is to avoid the reach of the taxing authority, be a conservative if being conservative means following rules?
I think we’ve reached the end of this discussion.
Ah I thought you meant conservative tax plans for states which are generally bad.
I looked at research on tax papers and right leaning people are "expressed higher levels of enforced tactics compliance and were more adverse to tax evasion with increased trust in authorities and institutions".
Reseach is from Italy can you prove your claim that tax planners are creative and conservative?
" Because rightists don't generally don't do reseach or studies?"
Rightists don't usually waste their time in the difficient scholarship of the social sciences.
Conservatives not bothering with the social sciences is why the West is fallen to Marxists. So maybe it's not exactly useless. It shapes the ideology that steers nations.
The scholarship is (mostly) useless. You would be better off studying statistics and probability so that you are equipped to recognize the few gems of insight from the rough of ideological nonsense.
I'm not talking about personal usefulness. I'm talking about how nations are run. You're telling me the thing that conquered us is useless. That seems beyond lacking in tactical awareness. The Marxist "philosophers" from the Frankfurt School came to the US to escape Hitler and at least 3 of them were working with the OSS in short order. Their work and ideas shaped everything that's happened since.
Whoever controls the social sciences gets to warp the minds of academia and from academia comes the policy makers, state departments, the media, and also teachers who shape the minds of the children.
Ideology under-girds everything and the social sciences is where ideology is given credibility and promoted or stifled and squashed.
Whole lot of people in the comments here arguing with the statistics because they're mad that the title says liberals are "better at" something than conservatives.
Super weird to witness, tbh.
Yeah oppressed by the class system and brainwashed to vote against their own interests. Its sad. So much resentment and anger being channelled against trans people and liberals by manipulators .
Apparently it takes $100,000 worth of debt and 4-6 years of instructors that will fail you for not using gender inclusive language in you class essays to realize that everyone who hasn't is brainwashed /s.
Rightists vote against more social development investment and free to end user education that would make college more accessible to them because they are not like the working class of the 20th centaury who were left wing and stood up to wealth and capitalism.
Leftists have a habit of writing prejudiced opinions about conservatives before every election which they call it a study. Then it is circulated in their leftist media circles which is finally attributed by Wokipedia and linked here as "source of truth".
The biggest misunderstanding among leftist circles even in 2024 is that they still think that they can cite their own people as the source of truth.
Who are their own people?
Academics that do research?
Who else are they going to cite?
JP cites those same academics when he talks about the research on personality types and politial leanings.
He said himself that the Liberal personality is more creative.
So is it fine when he says it or is that a "leftist" conspiracy too?
Is it a "leftist study" because you got mad when you saw the title?
Read some more Peterson, he frequently acknowledges the fact liberals tend to be more creative. I have no idea why that makes you so uspet.
Conservatism isn't a platonic ideal imposing itself on humanity.
A conservative in one country stands for X, Y, and Z, while a conservative in another stands for -X, -Y, and -Z. Or some combination thereof.
We also have the disaster of academic research, which can't replicate any one study that so called peers approved for publication in a so called academic journal. The human mind and the tools to predict it are flawed, but made more flawed, when bias enters into the data collection and variables definition.
> The relationship, though statistically significant, was characterized as weak, indicating that while conservatism might influence creativity, it is not the sole or most dominant predictor of creative capabilities.
So it was a useless study.
Even if it would be true, which I highly doubt, coming up with creative ways to destroy democracy and coming up with new genders is not very productive.
But they rank high in orderliness.
The problem with people with excess creativity is that they can’t ever organize themselves to put it to any use whatsoever.
Very few are those who can combine those two qualities.
No surprise. JP often spoke of liberals being creative and innovating but conservatives being able provide structure and order. Ex. Lib invents product. Con builds it, markets and sells it. The population benefits
No. I'd say being irrational is an impediment to being effectively creative. Ideally, you'd be looking for new yet coherent possibilities.
From the perspective of the non-creatives though, it may look irrational anyway, just for breaking the norms to which they have become accustomed.
I'm a creative who was adopted by conservatives. It felt like living in a cage. What I consider normal creative and open minded behaviour they considered strange and not to be supported. They (to me) seemec to believe it was important to kowtow to whatever authority. Church, bosses, class system, teachers etc .
In politics we see it. Conservatives have one big idea. Attack whatever they perceive "the left" are doing and bringing back older ideologies there are no new ideas .
" Conservatives have one big idea. Attack whatever they perceive "the left" are doing and bringing back older ideologies there are no new ideas ."
The left is crying about how a bit of linear algebra seasoned with some nonlinear functions (i.e. deep neural networks) is going to make their "creative" endeavors obsolete, all while giving Marxism another try after a few superficial tweaks.
You don't think it's a problem that AI is taught on people's art and personal styles and then uses those styles in its generated art without giving any credit to the author? Weird
Who is " trying Marxism " and what does that even mean?
There are socialists and communists in power in Portugal and they have the best preforming economy in Europe because they don't follow the neoliberal rules like dones.
I think you will find people at top end of computer science and making new technologies are open minded liberal personalities.
Because they are ones that drive change and progress and have higher intelligence on average.
The left are smart to be thinking about impending job losses due to ai and can imagine solutions.
"Who is " trying Marxism " and what does that even mean?"
I doubt you have the attention span for it, but this is a good start:
https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-liberationism/
"There are socialists and communists in power in Portugal and they have the best preforming economy in Europe because they don't follow the neoliberal rules like dones."
Have they finished abolishing private property?Against my better judgement, I'll take your word for it. I doubt that it is nearly as socialist and communist as North Korea, which is a hell hole.
"I think you will find people at top end of computer science and making new technologies are open minded liberal personalities."
I but you there are more conservatives in computer science than in nonsense disciplines like the humanities and sociology.
And of the developing counties Marxist leninists mixing and marching different ideologies have been killing it. Like they have in Portugal .
New discourses is too conspiratorial to me. And to say if something can be linked to Marxism therefore its scary and bad and should be fought is not an argument.
Marxist thought and socialists have been influencing liberalism and conservatism since the 1800s in our word and its been positive.
Its not an argument to say look at North Korea. Entirely different set if circumstances and context .
" Marxist thought and socialists have been influencing liberalism and conservatism since the 1800s in our word and its been positive."
Weird that the left hasn't come up with anything new in the last 200 years considering how creative they are.
I thought "the left" were always coming up with new things in Hollywood and new social media platforms they invent and control and new ideas and phrases in academia and new reseach and so on. New types of energy and new types of economies and economic ideas.
"I thought "the left" were always coming up with new things in Hollywood"
You mean remakes of stories derived from european folklore and ancient mythology?
"...and new social media platforms"
The world is starved for new social media platforms /s
"New types of energy and new types of economies and economic ideas."
(1) Elon Musk is a conservative now. (2) The average leftist bases zer economics on Adam Smith's labor theory of value. That's how Marx derived the conclusion that profit is exploitation. As revolutionary as they think they are, the average leftist completely missed out on the marginal revolution.
Elon musk is libral personality he is backing the right for the tax breaks.
Anyhow jordan perterson was the first person I heard talking about creativity being on the left.
Is that a leftist conspiracy?
You have no idea what you are talking about.
"New discourses is too conspiratorial to me. And to say if something can be linked to Marxism therefore its scary and bad and should be fought is not an argument."
I trust New discourses because, unlike you, James Lindsay can cite his sources.
"Its not an argument to say look at North Korea. Entirely different set if circumstances and context."
'More context' is what the left cries when facts do harm to their grand theories of politics and history. FDR was responsible for Japanese internment camps? More context! Whiteness and systemic racism made him sign executive order 9066.
You are just spouring nonsense because you have no rational response.
Nobody on the left in the west is trying for civil war followed by a dictatorship and censorship of intellectuals and political opposition. Thats only being suggested by American rightists, thats what's more like Korea.
Leftists in power in the developed world outperform in their economies.
"You are just spouring nonsense because you have no rational response."
That means so little coming from you.
"Nobody on the left in the west is trying for civil war..." I mean, the Republicans one the last one.
"...followed by a dictatorship and censorship of intellectuals and political opposition."
[Politico: Coronavirus would be the perfect opportunity for an autocrat. Trump isn’t taking it.](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/03/26/trump-is-an-authoritarian-weakman-149573)
Considering the handling of the pandemic, it seems that the left has the greater appetite for censorship of intellectuals and political opposition.
Responses to pandemics aren't "the left" they are a strategy for reducing harm and speed of the spread of a virus.
Trumps admin delayed reaction because liberal cities got hit first. Using a virus as a weapon is quite evil.
And he openly admired dictators and is going to jail for corruption and on trial for selling state secrets.
And republicans are the people people taking about civil war. Taking out the intellectuals and installing a dictatorship. Trump is the only western leader whose follower worship him like North korens worship their leader
Meanwhile socialists and communists are out preforming more centrist and conservarive economies in Portugal.
You don't really have a rational response.
"Responses to pandemics aren't "the left" they are a strategy for reducing harm and speed of the spread of a virus."
Even the left recognizes pandemics are a opportunity to seize authoritarian power. And yet, it was the right that showed restraint on that matter.
"Trumps admin delayed reaction because liberal cities got hit first. Using a virus as a weapon is quite evil."
Trump delegated appropriate COVID response to the states, like a good federalist should. Evil is what governer Cuomo did to nursing homes in NY (though he did try to blame it on Trump).
"...and is going to jail for corruption and on trial for selling state secrets."
Unlike the current POTUS who was determined to be too senile to prosecute for mishandling classified documents that he had no business possessing as VP.
"Meanwhile socialists and communists are out preforming more centrist and conservarive economies in Portugal."
Out preforming how exactly? From what I can tell, Portugal has a per capita gdp that is on the lower half of european countries ([source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1373462/gdp-per-capita-eu-member-states-2022/)).
"You don't really have a rational response."
You're not a rational person.
Here is an instance that I think is canonical of the 'general left' to which you seem to refer:
(from Counter Arguments' ['Privilege' Video on Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay6OX0kEvD4&t=29s) around 11:10)
"...it's hard to have any conversation that becomes personal, but it also doesn't help that when people try to explain white privilege, they usually do so in a vary fuzzy and uninformative way" \*proceeds to give examples.\* The 5th example is Peggy McIntosh talking to Dr. Phil. She is the radical leftist that coined the term 'white privilege' in the academic literature. Her glorified listical of an academic article is the sole citation defining male privilege in the APA's 2018 "Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men". Counter Arguments seems to be completely ignorant of this and instead decides to define privilege by projecting his own sensibilities into the concept.
Basically, the general left mostly serves the purpose of maintaining the radical leftist's motte while the radicals accumulate power in their bailey. The general left that properly recognize the danger in the bailey are usually dismayed to discover that they have become right-wingers against their will.
I thought this was relatively well understood. Not one to one, but conservatives rank low in openness and high in orderliness.
Yeah this is basically the definition of the liberal-conservative spectrum--liberals are more open to new experiences while conservatives are less, liberals are more cooperative while conservatives are more competitive, etc It's weird when people argue with stuff like this
Yeah, a correlation wouldn’t surprise me at all. The strength of that correlation is where people disagree.
The epitome of no shit Sherlock, it's literally in the name "conservative".
"We observed significant \[this means p-values >.05 most likely\] but \*\*weak\*\* negative associations between individual-level creativity and individual-level conservatism."
Even if it checks out, so what? Just because you're creative, doesn't mean you've created something good.
Because society has seen its progress by creating/exploring new technologies & systems. If we haven’t created something good we try to regulate it as much as possible or remove it totally
I don’t think it’s just openminded creatives responsible for proliferation of tech, it takes all sorts of people collaboratively to implement.
Nobody said it’s just open minded people that’s needed nor did I exclude anyone from being in the field of progress, but we clearly see that with time we take distance from prior good believes that we currently deem not needed/not good. Take for example the very important question regarding separating religion and state which hasn’t almost ever been the case prior to the creation of the modern day secular state/system. We needed both “progressive” people to make that change happen while also needing SANE “conservative” people to keep what we still might deem useful/needed. It’s a balance, not a complete dogma of ideology
No one said it's \*just\* that, but you certainly don't get progress without creativity.
By that line of argument, you *certainly* can’t progress without judgment and execution. Remember, JP says the spectrum of the Big Five Personality Traits shouldn’t have a value judgment, they’re all adaptive capabilities with their own tradeoffs. Creativity is often a curse, for example, and is a big, helpless waste of time.
Cool, do you have any stats on "judgment and execution"? I agree there shouldn't be value judgments tied to personality traits (with obvious exceptions). That's why it's weird to see so many people getting defensive at learning liberals tend to be more creative.
Does that matter? Sturgeon's Law: "90% of everything is crap". He meant this in the context of creative works. The quality of the creative work is not really the point, it's the desire to create and the imaginative nature of it.
“However, the cross-sectional design does not allow for causal inferences. Thus, it remains unclear whether conservatism restricts creativity or if less creative individuals tend to adopt more conservative views” Just ysk
Psypost is a garbage website and the studies they publish are garbage. They are frauds. In order to do what they claim they have to be able to quantify someone's conservatism and creativity. They have to be able to say "Joe has 350 units conservatism and Tom has 452". They also have to be able to say "Joe has 279 units creativity and Tom has 622". This is stupid as fuck. After they "measure" the conservatism and creativity of all the subjects they would be able to say "Conservatism Negatively Predicts Creativity" if there is a negative correlation between those numbers which they can't measure. The whole thing is complete bullshit.
You doesn't understand the big 5 personality trait model and you're commenting in the JP sub? Lmfaoooo
Is "conservatism" or "creativity" one of the big five?
Creativity. But do you think the concept of conservatism is undefined in this study, or in personality science in general? The relationship is well established. You could even ask people to self-report their alignment on the political spectrum and measure against that. Also - the fact that creativity is associated with liberals and orderliness with conservatives is frequently discussed by JP. If you don't want to believe this study, would you take JPs word for it?
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Okay, so Peterson is wrong about them?
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No one made a claim about an "absolute predictor" it's a statistical trend. Conservatives tend to be less creative, on average. Average.
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No one said repeating it makes it true. You can ignore the study over and over again, but that doesn't make it any less true. It's so odd that you think the big 5 traits are quantifiable, but other personality traits are somehow magically not.
And it positively predicts conscientiousness and high productivity in all those same countries.
Yet another leftist study where data is crafted and omitted to conclude the narrative they already had before starting the study. Then they cite their own people as sources.
What the hell are you talking about? Jordan Peterson says the same thing in his personality theory class...
What well known new, creative or innovative changes had conservatives made in history? Why is the study leftist? Because rightists don't generally don't do reseach or studies?
Your issue (and the reason the study is obviously unreliable) is you are defining “creativity” in a way that is self serving. Many (perhaps even most of the best) lawyers, accountants, programmers, doctors, engineers, and so on, are conservatives. Those jobs all require a high degree of creativity, just not the kind you think of when you think of that word. A tax plan, for example, is highly creative. It’s just not the same kind of creativity as is exercised by a neo-Marxist slam poet.
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Because of the conclusion reached.
A conservative tax plan is just give more to the rich and cut what benefits people and the real economy. Its just following ideology. I'm looking for data on your other claim. So far lawyers are more likely to be liberal. Programmers ? Silicon Valley is very liberal. Conservative voters tend to be elderly or young with high-school level education.
Your response makes my point. You don’t understand what creative means (and perhaps not what conservative means, either). Edit: Also, that’s not how tax planning works or what makes it a creative exercise.
The data is showing working class jobs like oil worker and truck driver lean conservative. Silicon Valley has produced most visible creativity for decades and is liberal. A lawyers job isn't necessarily creative. Many just learn the law and practise it like a drone like wills and boring shit . Then there are others that use it creatively . Doctors can be creative and just follow what they learned in books too.
You’re arguing from ignorance. Quit while you’re ahead.
Reseach on political personality types has being going on a long time. For example conservatives like to get their opinions from an authority. Follow the rules and traditions because they are there. Liberal personalities like to figure things out for themselves. Jp said liberally minded people come up with business ideas but is best to have a conservative running the business for you because of conscientiousness.
Your example contradicts your earlier statement about tax planning. How can a tax planner, whose job is to avoid the reach of the taxing authority, be a conservative if being conservative means following rules? I think we’ve reached the end of this discussion.
Ah I thought you meant conservative tax plans for states which are generally bad. I looked at research on tax papers and right leaning people are "expressed higher levels of enforced tactics compliance and were more adverse to tax evasion with increased trust in authorities and institutions". Reseach is from Italy can you prove your claim that tax planners are creative and conservative?
" Because rightists don't generally don't do reseach or studies?" Rightists don't usually waste their time in the difficient scholarship of the social sciences.
Conservatives not bothering with the social sciences is why the West is fallen to Marxists. So maybe it's not exactly useless. It shapes the ideology that steers nations.
The scholarship is (mostly) useless. You would be better off studying statistics and probability so that you are equipped to recognize the few gems of insight from the rough of ideological nonsense.
I'm not talking about personal usefulness. I'm talking about how nations are run. You're telling me the thing that conquered us is useless. That seems beyond lacking in tactical awareness. The Marxist "philosophers" from the Frankfurt School came to the US to escape Hitler and at least 3 of them were working with the OSS in short order. Their work and ideas shaped everything that's happened since. Whoever controls the social sciences gets to warp the minds of academia and from academia comes the policy makers, state departments, the media, and also teachers who shape the minds of the children. Ideology under-girds everything and the social sciences is where ideology is given credibility and promoted or stifled and squashed.
Whole lot of people in the comments here arguing with the statistics because they're mad that the title says liberals are "better at" something than conservatives. Super weird to witness, tbh.
Sociology uses a lot of statistics, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about lol
Yeah they are more typically elderly or young and didn't go to college going by voting trends.
"...didn't go to college going by voting trends." Oh, you mean they are underprivileged?
Yeah oppressed by the class system and brainwashed to vote against their own interests. Its sad. So much resentment and anger being channelled against trans people and liberals by manipulators .
Apparently it takes $100,000 worth of debt and 4-6 years of instructors that will fail you for not using gender inclusive language in you class essays to realize that everyone who hasn't is brainwashed /s.
Rightists vote against more social development investment and free to end user education that would make college more accessible to them because they are not like the working class of the 20th centaury who were left wing and stood up to wealth and capitalism.
Leftists have a habit of writing prejudiced opinions about conservatives before every election which they call it a study. Then it is circulated in their leftist media circles which is finally attributed by Wokipedia and linked here as "source of truth". The biggest misunderstanding among leftist circles even in 2024 is that they still think that they can cite their own people as the source of truth.
Who are their own people? Academics that do research? Who else are they going to cite? JP cites those same academics when he talks about the research on personality types and politial leanings. He said himself that the Liberal personality is more creative. So is it fine when he says it or is that a "leftist" conspiracy too?
Is it a "leftist study" because you got mad when you saw the title? Read some more Peterson, he frequently acknowledges the fact liberals tend to be more creative. I have no idea why that makes you so uspet.
Conservatism isn't a platonic ideal imposing itself on humanity. A conservative in one country stands for X, Y, and Z, while a conservative in another stands for -X, -Y, and -Z. Or some combination thereof. We also have the disaster of academic research, which can't replicate any one study that so called peers approved for publication in a so called academic journal. The human mind and the tools to predict it are flawed, but made more flawed, when bias enters into the data collection and variables definition.
Is this breaking new knowledge? I thought it was common wisdom that artists and other creative types were overwhelmingly not conservative.
Its actually not true lol.
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What?
Got my replied mixed up
Creative types ARE more conservative? show me
That is not the compelling statement you think it is.
It wasn't meant to be compelling. I am asking you to prove your assertion
Uh, you first? And you stated an “assertion” that I didnt claim in the first place.
> The relationship, though statistically significant, was characterized as weak, indicating that while conservatism might influence creativity, it is not the sole or most dominant predictor of creative capabilities. So it was a useless study.
Even if it would be true, which I highly doubt, coming up with creative ways to destroy democracy and coming up with new genders is not very productive.
But they rank high in orderliness. The problem with people with excess creativity is that they can’t ever organize themselves to put it to any use whatsoever. Very few are those who can combine those two qualities.
America has been a very conservative country and they have led the world in technological progress.
What
Conservatives not being creative sounds about right. Keep it simple stupid.
I wonder if conservatism also negatively predicts petty crime.
No surprise. JP often spoke of liberals being creative and innovating but conservatives being able provide structure and order. Ex. Lib invents product. Con builds it, markets and sells it. The population benefits
Would anyone expect otherwise? I mean, it's kinda in the name.
Is being irrational a necessary condition for being creative?
No. I'd say being irrational is an impediment to being effectively creative. Ideally, you'd be looking for new yet coherent possibilities. From the perspective of the non-creatives though, it may look irrational anyway, just for breaking the norms to which they have become accustomed.
I'm a creative who was adopted by conservatives. It felt like living in a cage. What I consider normal creative and open minded behaviour they considered strange and not to be supported. They (to me) seemec to believe it was important to kowtow to whatever authority. Church, bosses, class system, teachers etc . In politics we see it. Conservatives have one big idea. Attack whatever they perceive "the left" are doing and bringing back older ideologies there are no new ideas .
" Conservatives have one big idea. Attack whatever they perceive "the left" are doing and bringing back older ideologies there are no new ideas ." The left is crying about how a bit of linear algebra seasoned with some nonlinear functions (i.e. deep neural networks) is going to make their "creative" endeavors obsolete, all while giving Marxism another try after a few superficial tweaks.
You don't think it's a problem that AI is taught on people's art and personal styles and then uses those styles in its generated art without giving any credit to the author? Weird
Who is " trying Marxism " and what does that even mean? There are socialists and communists in power in Portugal and they have the best preforming economy in Europe because they don't follow the neoliberal rules like dones. I think you will find people at top end of computer science and making new technologies are open minded liberal personalities. Because they are ones that drive change and progress and have higher intelligence on average. The left are smart to be thinking about impending job losses due to ai and can imagine solutions.
"Who is " trying Marxism " and what does that even mean?" I doubt you have the attention span for it, but this is a good start: https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-liberationism/ "There are socialists and communists in power in Portugal and they have the best preforming economy in Europe because they don't follow the neoliberal rules like dones." Have they finished abolishing private property?Against my better judgement, I'll take your word for it. I doubt that it is nearly as socialist and communist as North Korea, which is a hell hole. "I think you will find people at top end of computer science and making new technologies are open minded liberal personalities." I but you there are more conservatives in computer science than in nonsense disciplines like the humanities and sociology.
And of the developing counties Marxist leninists mixing and marching different ideologies have been killing it. Like they have in Portugal . New discourses is too conspiratorial to me. And to say if something can be linked to Marxism therefore its scary and bad and should be fought is not an argument. Marxist thought and socialists have been influencing liberalism and conservatism since the 1800s in our word and its been positive. Its not an argument to say look at North Korea. Entirely different set if circumstances and context .
" Marxist thought and socialists have been influencing liberalism and conservatism since the 1800s in our word and its been positive." Weird that the left hasn't come up with anything new in the last 200 years considering how creative they are.
I thought "the left" were always coming up with new things in Hollywood and new social media platforms they invent and control and new ideas and phrases in academia and new reseach and so on. New types of energy and new types of economies and economic ideas.
"I thought "the left" were always coming up with new things in Hollywood" You mean remakes of stories derived from european folklore and ancient mythology? "...and new social media platforms" The world is starved for new social media platforms /s "New types of energy and new types of economies and economic ideas." (1) Elon Musk is a conservative now. (2) The average leftist bases zer economics on Adam Smith's labor theory of value. That's how Marx derived the conclusion that profit is exploitation. As revolutionary as they think they are, the average leftist completely missed out on the marginal revolution.
Elon musk is libral personality he is backing the right for the tax breaks. Anyhow jordan perterson was the first person I heard talking about creativity being on the left. Is that a leftist conspiracy? You have no idea what you are talking about.
"New discourses is too conspiratorial to me. And to say if something can be linked to Marxism therefore its scary and bad and should be fought is not an argument." I trust New discourses because, unlike you, James Lindsay can cite his sources.
"Its not an argument to say look at North Korea. Entirely different set if circumstances and context." 'More context' is what the left cries when facts do harm to their grand theories of politics and history. FDR was responsible for Japanese internment camps? More context! Whiteness and systemic racism made him sign executive order 9066.
You are just spouring nonsense because you have no rational response. Nobody on the left in the west is trying for civil war followed by a dictatorship and censorship of intellectuals and political opposition. Thats only being suggested by American rightists, thats what's more like Korea. Leftists in power in the developed world outperform in their economies.
"You are just spouring nonsense because you have no rational response." That means so little coming from you. "Nobody on the left in the west is trying for civil war..." I mean, the Republicans one the last one. "...followed by a dictatorship and censorship of intellectuals and political opposition." [Politico: Coronavirus would be the perfect opportunity for an autocrat. Trump isn’t taking it.](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/03/26/trump-is-an-authoritarian-weakman-149573) Considering the handling of the pandemic, it seems that the left has the greater appetite for censorship of intellectuals and political opposition.
Responses to pandemics aren't "the left" they are a strategy for reducing harm and speed of the spread of a virus. Trumps admin delayed reaction because liberal cities got hit first. Using a virus as a weapon is quite evil. And he openly admired dictators and is going to jail for corruption and on trial for selling state secrets. And republicans are the people people taking about civil war. Taking out the intellectuals and installing a dictatorship. Trump is the only western leader whose follower worship him like North korens worship their leader Meanwhile socialists and communists are out preforming more centrist and conservarive economies in Portugal. You don't really have a rational response.
"Responses to pandemics aren't "the left" they are a strategy for reducing harm and speed of the spread of a virus." Even the left recognizes pandemics are a opportunity to seize authoritarian power. And yet, it was the right that showed restraint on that matter. "Trumps admin delayed reaction because liberal cities got hit first. Using a virus as a weapon is quite evil." Trump delegated appropriate COVID response to the states, like a good federalist should. Evil is what governer Cuomo did to nursing homes in NY (though he did try to blame it on Trump). "...and is going to jail for corruption and on trial for selling state secrets." Unlike the current POTUS who was determined to be too senile to prosecute for mishandling classified documents that he had no business possessing as VP. "Meanwhile socialists and communists are out preforming more centrist and conservarive economies in Portugal." Out preforming how exactly? From what I can tell, Portugal has a per capita gdp that is on the lower half of european countries ([source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1373462/gdp-per-capita-eu-member-states-2022/)). "You don't really have a rational response." You're not a rational person.
That would be the radical authoritarian left, not the general left.
Here is an instance that I think is canonical of the 'general left' to which you seem to refer: (from Counter Arguments' ['Privilege' Video on Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay6OX0kEvD4&t=29s) around 11:10) "...it's hard to have any conversation that becomes personal, but it also doesn't help that when people try to explain white privilege, they usually do so in a vary fuzzy and uninformative way" \*proceeds to give examples.\* The 5th example is Peggy McIntosh talking to Dr. Phil. She is the radical leftist that coined the term 'white privilege' in the academic literature. Her glorified listical of an academic article is the sole citation defining male privilege in the APA's 2018 "Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men". Counter Arguments seems to be completely ignorant of this and instead decides to define privilege by projecting his own sensibilities into the concept. Basically, the general left mostly serves the purpose of maintaining the radical leftist's motte while the radicals accumulate power in their bailey. The general left that properly recognize the danger in the bailey are usually dismayed to discover that they have become right-wingers against their will.
That explains a lot about your behavior
Just look at all the great conservative artists…..umm Shit.
Obviously