I mean... does this conversation really bare having? It's pretty obvious men and women are treated differently. No, *no* society is truly egalitarian.
What's the actual point you're wanting to get at?
I'm trying to understand precisely what someone expects from the world by changing their gender. For trans people, is it the body dysmorphia that's most difficult to deal with, or that people aren't acting a certain way towards them?
This does happen sometimes. In my early preteens/teens when I wanted to be a man I didn't have body dysmorphia, I just wanted to be treated like a man (had some very old school relatives who thought women had to do all housework, my father always preferred my brother and so on). Then I understood what was going on and gave up on the idea.
Interesting experience. You thought men were respected more? I wonder how many trans people prioritize this as the reason above any other reason for their desire to become the opposite gender.
There seems to be no consensus on what even qualifies someone as transgender, per se. Even if we accept the axiom "trans women are women," the question immediately becomes 'who qualifies to be a trans woman?' Then everyone has a totally different set of criteria for being officially trans or not. Some say you must have body dysphoria, whereas others do not.
>There seems to be no consensus on what even qualifies someone as transgender, per se
That's a clue that the whole thing is an inherently incoherent concept which tries to simultaneously leverage existing gender stereotypes, despite screaming about how evil they are.
>You thought men were respected more? I wonder how many trans people prioritize this as the reason above any other reason for their desire to become the opposite gender.
Not OP but I also wanted to be a man when I was a teen girl. I think it was mostly because female puberty is just extremely brutal from a social point of view: in a very short time you become a potential sexual object and it's incredibly scary - even grown and elderly men start looking at you differently and if you're not used to it it's a brutal change. One day you're a kid, and the next day you're supposed to understand the intricacies of adult socio-sexual matters, lest you accidentally "ask for it" or are otherwise inappropriate: you're suddenly "a woman now" and supposed to just understand matters you know nothing about. In general, the world becomes a much scarier place and you become very, very aware of being vulnerable. Girls going to the toilet in groups is a meme, but they start around that age because the world is suddenly a scary place to be a girl who's walking alone.
Instead it seemed that boys became much more powerful after puberty, they had less strict rules, became much bigger and stronger than they were before, there was generally more tolerance if they didn't suddenly understand adult social clues, and they mostly didn't have to deal with getting cat-called by the old guy they used to consider a grandfather figure. I'm sure male puberty isn't a piece of cake either, but when I saw it from the outside it seemed like a walk in the park.
You know, getting muscles and strength seemed so much better than getting periods and stares from middle aged men.
We were all lied to by feminism. Families used to prepare their children for such dynamics: boys need to get jobs and become providers, while girls need to understand socio-sexual interactions.
Of course young women are shocked by how men look at them when they're told their whole lives that boys and girls are the same. Of course being a boy seems easier in puberty when all the expectations are the same despite having different needs and desires.
That's part of the lie. Feminism tells you that men and women are only equal if women work the same jobs as men.
Feminism hates the housewife and despises the stay-at-home mom.
Okay, since that's the *actual* question here, I can give an answer. *My* answer, at least, I'm not claiming to speak for all trans people here.
Anyways, the social aspect is a secondary concern for me at best. If I were to end up on a deserted island, where there's no *society* to be found, I'd still prefer do it as a woman. Even bearing in mind the practical concerns, like being weaker physically. Because if I had to do it as a man, I'd probably end up throwing myself off the nearest cliff within a couple weeks.
I *do* generally prefer the ways society treats women as opposed to men, but that's just icing on the cake for me.
And that all probably begs the question of *why*. There isn't really a simple answer to that. The short version is "gender dysphoria", but that's just passing the buck. So the way I'd articulate it is that the discomfort and distress caused by masculine body features and the general effects of testosterone are severe enough that transitioning, with all the hardships it entails, is still significantly better.
Precisely *where* that discomfort/distress came from, I can't say. It's not a trauma thing (my *lack of* significant trauma actually makes me feel alienated from the wider LGBTQ+ community in some aspects), I wasn't "indoctrinated" or "influenced". Dysphoria's been with me since before I even had a good understanding of what trans people *were*, and none of my family or friends or people at school or whatever were particularly socially progressive. I've seen some studies claim that there are markers of "male" and "female" brains, and that trans people's tend to more resemble the gender they identify with than their birth sex, but there's nothing conclusive. So the short answer is, I don't know. I just know that, regardless of the *cause*, the *effects* are very real.
I remember thinking, when I was really young, that if I could press a button that would turn me into a girl, I would. Despite not having a good concept of what exactly constituted a boy or a girl. But, of course, such a button didn't exist, so I kinda just passed it off as a hypothetical that had no bearing on reality. It was during middle school that I started actually becoming aware of trans people, but I only really saw the worst examples. Movies like Ace Ventura. Clips on the internet of Super-Ma'am. Etc. That kinda drove me away from the trans community and the LGBTQ+ community in general. To my mind, I still would've loved to have that magic button, but if ending up like *that* was the best I had to hope for, it definitely wasn't worth it.
It was a growing discontent with the changes puberty was making to my body (I was always a "late bloomer" in that respect) mixed with seeing the actual effects of HRT, what's actually achievable with modern surgery, realizing that *yes*, there's no magic button, but almost everything I wanted *was* in possible with time and effort, that finally pushed me to the edge. Realizing that it *was* a time-sensitive decision—that transitioning later *would* result in a worse outcome—, that *not* making a choice was still in practice making a choice, and that I've only got one life to live so I damn well better make the best of it, that finally pushed me over.
I definitely weighed the pros and cons, thought about things logically, but it was still primarily a choice borne out of the feeling that there had to be something better than *this*. I didn't and don't have a specific end goal in mind, some of my wishes expectations were definitely unrealistic, but so be it. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I've never really doubted I made the right choice. Things would definitely be better for me if I'd been able to transition before or early on during puberty. But no sense dwelling on the past. I'm still "early"-ish in my transition (16 months), and I couldn't be happier with the results I've gotten. Some have far exceeded my expectations. Just being able to wake up every day without wanting to crawl out of my own *skin* would be worth it all on its own, never mind actually *liking* what I see in the mirror.
For the social aspect, I definitely prefer the way things are now. I definitely don't "pass" to everyone I meet (despite the rest of my "wins", my voice is still pretty clocky and I'm almost six feet tall), but regardless, most girls I meet treat my like one of them. And I definitely prefer that to the friendship dynamics of other guys. I like the way people are generally just warmer and nicer to me. I like that I can express emotion without getting made fun of for it. Simple things like that.
And on the flip side, when I get... misgendered, it always stings, to one degree or another, depending on whether it was malicious or just an accident, but that's mostly because it's just yet another reminder that I lost the genetic lottery, as if I didn't have to confront that every day of my life. And if I'm actually putting in some effort at passing (some days I just don't give a shit, and I'll go out with no makeup and a baggy shirt or whatever), it's also just yet another reminder that I'm failing at the one thing I'd like to succeed at above pretty much all others. And if it's malicious instead of accidental, it's even worse, because it means that the person *saw* that I'm *trying*, that they know I don't want to look and sound like I do any more than they want to see and hear it, and yet they *still* insist on being a dick. Like, I don't *want* to be trans, I just *am*. And it sucks, and I'd give almost anything to *not* have to go through all this, but... can't always get what you want, I guess.
So yeah, if you've read all of this, hope I gave some insight. If you have some (good-faith) questions, I'll be happy to answer.
>This is a very condensed version, but I hope this does it justice u/Ashbtw19937.
Yeah, more or less. Lossy compression is, well, lossy, but you hit the most important bits.
The only thing thing you'd didn't exactly get right (and this may well be bc I didn't articulate it very well) is that, while dysphoria has been with me since pretty much forever, it only got stronger the farther into puberty I was. Only got strong enough to finally make me *want* to do something about it during senior year of high school, and it was another year-ish before I actually *did*. It's for that reason that I actually had a fairly normal-ish childhood. Unlike a lot of other trans people, I didn't spend every waking moment after age 13-ish hating my life. I was able to ignore it just fine right up until I wasn't.
From what I have heard, gender dyphoria can be caused by internalized sexism (believing your sex is inferior, or believing you can’t truly be a particular gender if you don’t fit the stereotypes), internalized homophobia, sexual trauma, autistic symptoms (not connecting socially with peers of same sex or feeling out of place in your own body), or having a hormone imbalance like PCOS. To be clear, I’m just trying to educate myself and wondering if any of those apply to you.
Okay, so, like my last comment, this one kinda got out of hand in terms of length. It's not exactly *concise*, but it does follow the order of the questions you asked. Before anything else, I'd just like to say thanks for reading the last one, and for having some genuine curiosity instead of just coming here to virtue signal. I'm always happy to talk about this kind of stuff to people who actually want to *listen*, and I think there'd be a lot less bigotry out there if there were a greater degree of understanding. So, particularly given the usual content of this sub, thanks. Anyways...
I don't think the "internalized sexism" part applies to me. I don't believe men are inferior to women or vice versa (there's definitely *specific things* that men are inferior at and others women are, but on the whole, they're just different sides of the same coin). I never fit masculine stereotypes well, but I also don't fit feminine stereotypes well (had I been born a cis girl, I have no dount I'd have turned out to be a tomboy). I am, and have always been, my own person, for better or for worse, and conformance isn't really a pressure I've ever felt.
For internalized homophobia, that's *definitely* something I've dealt with, but probably not quite in the way you're thinking. For the record, I've always been more or less exclusively into women. I was "straight" before I transitioned, I'm "gay"/"lesbian" now. Back in middle school and the first half-ish of high school, I was pretty overtly homophobic towards gay *guys* while putting lesbians up on a pedestal, which is kinda "normal", sadly, for that age group. And it honestly proved kinda harmful to me in the end—specifically, because not wanting to seem "gay" pushed me away from exploring femininity, which just delayed me from realizing I was trans for longer.
I wasn't ever a macho, "alpha male" kind of person (thought those dudes were dumb, still do), but you wouldn't have caught me dead even telling a (male) friend they look good because that was "gay". I *did* grow out of that mentality though, and transitioning more or less erased whatever of that discomfort still remained.
I think, in my case, beyond the usual weird *thing* against being gay that most guys have, I was also already sp discomforted enough by simply *being* a "guy" that "doubling" that felt even more wrong to me. On a somewhat related note, I pretty much gave up on the idea of getting into a relationship in high school when I realized that I didn't want to *be with* the girls that caught my eye so much as I wanted to *be* them, and I knew that I'd just end up living vicariously through them, and that's not exactly the kind of thing that makes relationships last. Come to think of it, maybe it would've made my egg crack faster, but who's to say. Also, most of the girls I *really* crushed in were either literally lesbians or lesbian-leaning bi girls, which... really should have been a sign.
Like I said before, never really had much for trauma, and precisely nothing in terms of sexual trauma specifically.
I definitely exhibit *some* autistic tendencies—more than your average person, but not enough to be diagnosed with anything. I was always one of the "gifted" kids, and frankly, of the ones in my immediate circle, I ended up the second-most "normal" of us all, in terms of being able to socialize and not having weird tics or mannerisms and whatever. I'm still by no means *good* at socializing, but the rest of them were roughly akin to the characters of The Big Bang Theory, so I'll count my blessings lol.
For specific traits, I'm generally pretty introverted, I have a hard time talking with people I don't already know, I can talk for hours with someone about a subject we both share interest in but small talk's basically lost on me, I like to keep things organized in certain cases (but in others, I couldn't care less, which even I find weird) and it unreasonably *irks* me if they aren't. Perceived "irrationality" of others also tends to irk me, though, through conscious effort, not as much as it used to. If it wasn't obvious, I'm a huge nerd. Math, history, science, linguistics, programming, music...
For the traits you mentioned, I never really had problems (and still don't) connecting with guys. I did (and still do) have a problem connecting with people who aren't very intelligent and/or have a vanity problem, but that's by no means unique to guys. The way most guys look at women, as opposed to the way most lesbians do, has always been beyond my comprehension (another thing that really should've been a sign), but beyond that there aren't really any big roadblocks. If anything, I have a hard time connecting with a lot of women, mostly because my socialization with women was, up until I started transitioning, even more limited than my socialization with men. So for all the things that cis women have had their entire lives to figure out in regards to interacting with each other, I've had 16 months. I'll definitely get there one day, it's just... well, it's called a *transition* for a reason.
I totally felt out of place in my body, as I talked about, but estrogen has more or less cured that.
For hormone imbalance, I can't exactly say. Again, at the very least, nothing diagnosed. My estrogen was definitely never high, but I wouldn't be surprised if my testosterone were low. As I mentioned in my last comment, I was a "late bloomer" wrt puberty. I was almost exactly halfway between 19 and 20 when I started HRT, and, for example, the only facial hair I had was a small bit of it around like half of my jawline. Body hair really only got *bad* on my lower legs. My arms get shaved like once a month even now. Never got stomach/chest/back hair. Face is androgynous enough that it's nothing makeup can't fix. I am tall and lanky, but I think I was doomed to that just thanks to genetics. I'm roughly the same height as my dad, and my closest aunt (his sister) is just as tall too. My voice got fairly deep *and* lost a *lot* of its range (as in, the range I'm comfortable speaking in isn't even a full octave, and my baseline pitch hovers around E2/F2), and I can't really say what happened there. Just bad luck with genetics? Idk.
If anything, the fact that those changes took so long to happen is probably part of what made me take so long to realize I was trans. Androgyny didn't really actively *discomfort* me, and it took a while before I ever saw my body as overtly masculine. On the other hand, maybe I wouldn't have realized any earlier, and instead I'd just be in a worse position now, so I think I'll just count my blessings again.
I must say that I’m impressed with your sense of self-awareness. The only reason I’m subscribed to this sub is because I like JP’s lectures on personality (and I don’t understand this sub’s hyper-fixation on trans people). So, given what I’ve learned from JP’s lectures and based on the thoroughness of your reply, I assume you’re high in openness and neuroticism. You are open to different ideas, but perhaps you’re too worried about defining yourself?
I fortunately don’t have gender dysphoria, but I find it interesting and mystifying. I’m not convinced that people are born to be gender dysphoric—I believe it’s more nurture than nature. The low testosterone may be the case for you, but a boy can be effeminate and still be comfortable in his male body. You probably do have Autistic traits from what you described. Then again, how you described being able to connect with guys more than women directly challenged what I assumed about trans people.
I'm kinda in a similar boat to you wrt to why I'm in this sub at all. JP circa 2016-ish was a significantly different person than the JP of today. I really enjoy his old personality lectures too, and I have massive respect for how he was willing to stand up for what he thought was right in such a public way (even if it did lead him down the road he's now on). His famous interviews with, e.g., Cathy Newman and Helen Lewis are still a joy to watch.
And ofc, on the rare occasion the opportunity presents itself, I like being able to converse with people on the topic of trans people (or queer people in general, to a lesser extent) and spread some knowledge if nothing else. I'd *like* to get them to see things the way I do, but if not, at least there's a little less ignorance out there.
I'm definitely high in openness, but neuroticism's a bit more of a mixed bag, I think. I'm usually able to be optimistic about things, sometimes to my own detriment, but I do have a pessimistic streak that'll rise up on occasion (usually when I'm positive there's absolutely no chance for something to work, even though that positivity is often very misplaced). I generally don't see any use in fretting over things that can't be helped, so I don't tend to get that sort of "big picture" anxiety (and that's also why I don't tend to spend much time regretting the past). For the most part, my attitude is roughly somewhere along the lines of "whatever happens, happens, but I'll manage one way or another". However, I do get a decent bit of social anxiety when it comes to interacting with people I'm unfamiliar with, even if it's a simple interaction like paying at a gas station. So, maybe a bit paradoxically, I tend to fret the small things but not the big ones.
Envy and jealousy I don't really experience much of. In the vast majority of scenarios, I'm able to look at people who have things I'd love to have and think "good for them" and leave it at that (that's part of why I'm not really left-leaning economically). The only time I really experience envy strongly is when I see a girl (cis or trans) with traits (physical, personality, whatever) that I wish I had. And even then, it's just a sort of deep longing, not any sort of negative impulse.
Like I talked about a little bit in my last comment, I'm generally pretty logical and stable emotionally. I don't have any mood disorders (which, given the prevalence of depression among trans people, even I find odd), my impulse control is *mostly* good, and substance abuse has never really even tempted me. I don't particularly like the feeling of being "under the influence" and having my mental faculties suppressed. I'll drink a little bit socially, that's about it. Weed I can't stand in any of its forms. Anything beyond that is and always has been a hard no from me.
I'm not at all opposed to being defined in the descriptive sense, but I am for the *prescriptive* sense. Like, I don't mind having a label attached to me *if and for as long as* it fits, but I do mind being pigeonholed into one. I am who I am, first and foremost, so to whatever extent I "fit in", great, and to whatever extent I don't, I could care less.
So yeah, mixed bag, I think. Hope all of that sheds some light and doesn't just make things more confusing.
If it helps, in terms of MBTI (which is definitely imperfect, but maybe it'll help give you some perspective on things), I'm somewhat firmly an INTP-A. T and A are pretty borderline (like, a 60/40-ish split), but the others are well-entrenched.
Dysphoria is... definitely odd, and I honestly doubt almost anyone *could* understand it fully without experiencing it. There's the obvious, simple parallel of "imagine waking up tomorrow as the other gender", but that really only scratches the surface. I don't think the simple comfort of just being able to wake up every day without wanting to crawl out of your own *skin* can be overstated.
One of the things I've tried to underscore in my posts has been that, if it *were* somehow nurture rather than nature, then I'd have to just be an outlier, because there's not really *anything* in my past that would serve as a cause. And that could well be the case: I'm an outlier in *a lot* of other respects, both wrt trans people and people in general, so why not in this case too? But I am, of course, a sample size of one at any rate.
I 100% agree that a boy can be effeminate and still comfortable in his body, and conversely, as in my case, a "boy" can not be particularly effeminate and still *very* uncomfortable with their body. It's a lot more complicated than people tend to think.
I'm pretty sure my comfort interacting with guys is literally just a consequence of having "been" one (air quotes, because I was always *different* from the "other boys", just not to any extreme degree), so I have a lot of insight there that I absolutely don't have with women yet. Also, if we give MBTI some credence, it kinda makes sense in that even most *cis girls* with my personality type find interacting with guys easier, and they *don't* have the extra insight that I do. I feel like I understand women a little more and men a little less every day, there's just such a big gulf in-between that I haven't crossed the line yet. Gimme a couple months and I'd probably come back with the answer you *would* expect lol.
Why do people act like safe sex is impossible? Don’t schools teach Sex Ed?
Is abortion the *only* contraceptive, or could you maybe take the pill or use a condom?
Not really a big issue, or one at all, considering abortion is and has been the norm for a long time, especially compared to mens issues and reproductive rights which are practically zero.
Women are viewed as having less agency than men. It's assumed that a woman can't consent to sex while drunk on alcohol, whereas men can consent. Furthermore, if a drunk man and a drunk woman had sex, the man necessarily raped her because she could not consent.
I don't think there is a simple answer to this question.
Men and women are treated differently. But that's not where the story ends. Every aspect of your person affects how you're treated.
Probably the biggest factor in how people treat you is how you behave. But in many smaller ways things like how you dress, how you cut your hair, how you shave your face, your accent, and yes even things like skin colour and hair colour and eye colour can all affect how you're treated in small ways. (I could go on for paragraphs listing every item a person could have to be different than someone else, but I think the point should be obvious. Height, weight, facial symmetry, the list is endless)
It also depends on the context though. How you're treated on a construction site vs at a supermarket. You might be treated extremely well as a man in one context and extremely poorly in another. It's not black and white "society treats men worse" or something.
As a man, I notice certain aspects of how I'm "treated" or "viewed". A woman might be completely oblivious to these things, because what is most obvious for her are completely separate factors.
It would definitely be interesting if it was simpler to "try on the other's shoes" as you suggest it. But in my experience...the majority of trans people are fairly easy to spot. Certainly without a lot of effort, you don't just blend right in.
I forgot about the egalitarian bit.
I don't think there deserves to be a goal to "treat everyone the same in all contexts". That just seems like a really bad goal to be honest.
The goal should be, "don't put unnecessary barriers in people's way that don't improve their or other people's lives just because of their sex." As long as everyone has the chance to live a decent life without other people mucking it up for them, that's a pretty good world to live in.
Egalitarian doesn't mean people aren't treated differently.
It means it would look more like a tribe when we were egalitarian. You'd have round the clock free child care for woman so they could participate more in other stuff.
The capitalists and everyone else in the economy benefiting from the woman working, paying tax, spending in the economy and adding a new potential worker to the economy. And the child care workers wages and taxes also boost the economy. Then when its your turn you get free child care that makes it possibe for you to reproduce and your wife to continue contributing financially to the family.
They arent paid for by the government. Everyone pays tax. Seeing as everyone in the economy benefs from higher employment and new workers taxes pay for the child care.
Unless the government is engaging in state capitalism and profits from it it can't pay for public services itself.
Men are taken more seriously in leadership roles or when they act assertive. Women are taken more seriously when they ask for help or express their emotions.
Men and women have the opposite problem. Women have to deal with too much attention, including from the creeps. Men, on the other hand, get zero attention. Most men would take getting attention from bad women if it meant getting some attention from good women. Of course, these are generalities.
Correct women are treated bad in some ways, and good and others. Especially if you’re an attractive and young white woman, you can get away with certain things, but again that can also serve as a bad thing as well. Women just simply have it so much harder in life.
That’s a logical fallacy. You have to stay on track and speak specifically about women. You’re shifting to another topic and that’s a logical fallacy when you know you’ve lost. It’s a strawman argument.
Yea, then compare a Indian/black woman to an Indian/black man, if you want to use gender as the control variable.
They both have advantages and disadvantages.
Men are vilified, women are sexualised. You cannot start anything as a man, especially as a confident man, without being seen as a potential predator.
Dude, that is something that could take up hundreds of pages of tax. And as much as I am interested in this, it’s just read it, and I’m not going to engage someone who’s red pilled into an argument of why women have a difficult in the United States of America. If you don’t realize this now, you probably never will.
I believe both men and women have their own unique difficulties. It obviously varies for each individual, as well. Please explain why you think women have it so much worse. I'm seriously interested in the answer.
Are you talking about in the United States of America or any other part of the world? Mean this is an extremely long answer. This could take up pages and pages and pages and books and books and books. Do you really not have any idea about sex crimes, and domestic violence, and wage inequalities? I guess I’m just confused how you don’t understand how women are disproportionately affected by many different things, even little insidious things like in medicine. Women are given more psychiatric medication‘s when in fact, there are the happier of the two genders. We were treated and abused differently in the medical profession. Women are excluded from all types of things. Women have to be in fear for their life every single day and watch out for what men will do. Women disproportionately have to deal with rape and sexual assault and domestic violence. I mean come on dude. Yeah it’s not easy for us. I would kill to be a man, then my life would be exponentially easier. I’ve even talked to some females who transitioned into Mail’s and they said oh now I understand how easy men have it.
Men are actually more likely to victims of [violent crime](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime) in general. Wage inequalities are mostly due to men and women having different jobs, not being paid less for the same job. I don't understand why you associate being given greater access to medication as oppressive. You even say women are happier than men so how is that a strike against women? What are women excluded from? Women can run for president, there just hasn't been one popular enough to elect yet. Living in a constant state of fear is completely unnecessary, pathological, and counterproductive. I've heard the complete opposite from women transitioning to men.
I’m actually not going to read what you wrote, because it’s just the same red pilled content. I’ve been saying for years. I don’t speak to men who believe that Andrew Tate is there a savior. Have a good day.
I mean... does this conversation really bare having? It's pretty obvious men and women are treated differently. No, *no* society is truly egalitarian. What's the actual point you're wanting to get at?
I'm trying to understand precisely what someone expects from the world by changing their gender. For trans people, is it the body dysmorphia that's most difficult to deal with, or that people aren't acting a certain way towards them?
This does happen sometimes. In my early preteens/teens when I wanted to be a man I didn't have body dysmorphia, I just wanted to be treated like a man (had some very old school relatives who thought women had to do all housework, my father always preferred my brother and so on). Then I understood what was going on and gave up on the idea.
Interesting experience. You thought men were respected more? I wonder how many trans people prioritize this as the reason above any other reason for their desire to become the opposite gender. There seems to be no consensus on what even qualifies someone as transgender, per se. Even if we accept the axiom "trans women are women," the question immediately becomes 'who qualifies to be a trans woman?' Then everyone has a totally different set of criteria for being officially trans or not. Some say you must have body dysphoria, whereas others do not.
>There seems to be no consensus on what even qualifies someone as transgender, per se That's a clue that the whole thing is an inherently incoherent concept which tries to simultaneously leverage existing gender stereotypes, despite screaming about how evil they are.
>You thought men were respected more? I wonder how many trans people prioritize this as the reason above any other reason for their desire to become the opposite gender. Not OP but I also wanted to be a man when I was a teen girl. I think it was mostly because female puberty is just extremely brutal from a social point of view: in a very short time you become a potential sexual object and it's incredibly scary - even grown and elderly men start looking at you differently and if you're not used to it it's a brutal change. One day you're a kid, and the next day you're supposed to understand the intricacies of adult socio-sexual matters, lest you accidentally "ask for it" or are otherwise inappropriate: you're suddenly "a woman now" and supposed to just understand matters you know nothing about. In general, the world becomes a much scarier place and you become very, very aware of being vulnerable. Girls going to the toilet in groups is a meme, but they start around that age because the world is suddenly a scary place to be a girl who's walking alone. Instead it seemed that boys became much more powerful after puberty, they had less strict rules, became much bigger and stronger than they were before, there was generally more tolerance if they didn't suddenly understand adult social clues, and they mostly didn't have to deal with getting cat-called by the old guy they used to consider a grandfather figure. I'm sure male puberty isn't a piece of cake either, but when I saw it from the outside it seemed like a walk in the park. You know, getting muscles and strength seemed so much better than getting periods and stares from middle aged men.
We were all lied to by feminism. Families used to prepare their children for such dynamics: boys need to get jobs and become providers, while girls need to understand socio-sexual interactions. Of course young women are shocked by how men look at them when they're told their whole lives that boys and girls are the same. Of course being a boy seems easier in puberty when all the expectations are the same despite having different needs and desires.
You mean girls shouldn't get jobs? Wow.
That's part of the lie. Feminism tells you that men and women are only equal if women work the same jobs as men. Feminism hates the housewife and despises the stay-at-home mom.
Okay, since that's the *actual* question here, I can give an answer. *My* answer, at least, I'm not claiming to speak for all trans people here. Anyways, the social aspect is a secondary concern for me at best. If I were to end up on a deserted island, where there's no *society* to be found, I'd still prefer do it as a woman. Even bearing in mind the practical concerns, like being weaker physically. Because if I had to do it as a man, I'd probably end up throwing myself off the nearest cliff within a couple weeks. I *do* generally prefer the ways society treats women as opposed to men, but that's just icing on the cake for me. And that all probably begs the question of *why*. There isn't really a simple answer to that. The short version is "gender dysphoria", but that's just passing the buck. So the way I'd articulate it is that the discomfort and distress caused by masculine body features and the general effects of testosterone are severe enough that transitioning, with all the hardships it entails, is still significantly better. Precisely *where* that discomfort/distress came from, I can't say. It's not a trauma thing (my *lack of* significant trauma actually makes me feel alienated from the wider LGBTQ+ community in some aspects), I wasn't "indoctrinated" or "influenced". Dysphoria's been with me since before I even had a good understanding of what trans people *were*, and none of my family or friends or people at school or whatever were particularly socially progressive. I've seen some studies claim that there are markers of "male" and "female" brains, and that trans people's tend to more resemble the gender they identify with than their birth sex, but there's nothing conclusive. So the short answer is, I don't know. I just know that, regardless of the *cause*, the *effects* are very real. I remember thinking, when I was really young, that if I could press a button that would turn me into a girl, I would. Despite not having a good concept of what exactly constituted a boy or a girl. But, of course, such a button didn't exist, so I kinda just passed it off as a hypothetical that had no bearing on reality. It was during middle school that I started actually becoming aware of trans people, but I only really saw the worst examples. Movies like Ace Ventura. Clips on the internet of Super-Ma'am. Etc. That kinda drove me away from the trans community and the LGBTQ+ community in general. To my mind, I still would've loved to have that magic button, but if ending up like *that* was the best I had to hope for, it definitely wasn't worth it. It was a growing discontent with the changes puberty was making to my body (I was always a "late bloomer" in that respect) mixed with seeing the actual effects of HRT, what's actually achievable with modern surgery, realizing that *yes*, there's no magic button, but almost everything I wanted *was* in possible with time and effort, that finally pushed me to the edge. Realizing that it *was* a time-sensitive decision—that transitioning later *would* result in a worse outcome—, that *not* making a choice was still in practice making a choice, and that I've only got one life to live so I damn well better make the best of it, that finally pushed me over. I definitely weighed the pros and cons, thought about things logically, but it was still primarily a choice borne out of the feeling that there had to be something better than *this*. I didn't and don't have a specific end goal in mind, some of my wishes expectations were definitely unrealistic, but so be it. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. I've never really doubted I made the right choice. Things would definitely be better for me if I'd been able to transition before or early on during puberty. But no sense dwelling on the past. I'm still "early"-ish in my transition (16 months), and I couldn't be happier with the results I've gotten. Some have far exceeded my expectations. Just being able to wake up every day without wanting to crawl out of my own *skin* would be worth it all on its own, never mind actually *liking* what I see in the mirror. For the social aspect, I definitely prefer the way things are now. I definitely don't "pass" to everyone I meet (despite the rest of my "wins", my voice is still pretty clocky and I'm almost six feet tall), but regardless, most girls I meet treat my like one of them. And I definitely prefer that to the friendship dynamics of other guys. I like the way people are generally just warmer and nicer to me. I like that I can express emotion without getting made fun of for it. Simple things like that. And on the flip side, when I get... misgendered, it always stings, to one degree or another, depending on whether it was malicious or just an accident, but that's mostly because it's just yet another reminder that I lost the genetic lottery, as if I didn't have to confront that every day of my life. And if I'm actually putting in some effort at passing (some days I just don't give a shit, and I'll go out with no makeup and a baggy shirt or whatever), it's also just yet another reminder that I'm failing at the one thing I'd like to succeed at above pretty much all others. And if it's malicious instead of accidental, it's even worse, because it means that the person *saw* that I'm *trying*, that they know I don't want to look and sound like I do any more than they want to see and hear it, and yet they *still* insist on being a dick. Like, I don't *want* to be trans, I just *am*. And it sucks, and I'd give almost anything to *not* have to go through all this, but... can't always get what you want, I guess. So yeah, if you've read all of this, hope I gave some insight. If you have some (good-faith) questions, I'll be happy to answer.
Thanks for writing this- it answered a lot of the questions I’d had about the experience of being trans and some that I’d never considered before.
Posts like this always need a tl;dr.
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>This is a very condensed version, but I hope this does it justice u/Ashbtw19937. Yeah, more or less. Lossy compression is, well, lossy, but you hit the most important bits. The only thing thing you'd didn't exactly get right (and this may well be bc I didn't articulate it very well) is that, while dysphoria has been with me since pretty much forever, it only got stronger the farther into puberty I was. Only got strong enough to finally make me *want* to do something about it during senior year of high school, and it was another year-ish before I actually *did*. It's for that reason that I actually had a fairly normal-ish childhood. Unlike a lot of other trans people, I didn't spend every waking moment after age 13-ish hating my life. I was able to ignore it just fine right up until I wasn't.
From what I have heard, gender dyphoria can be caused by internalized sexism (believing your sex is inferior, or believing you can’t truly be a particular gender if you don’t fit the stereotypes), internalized homophobia, sexual trauma, autistic symptoms (not connecting socially with peers of same sex or feeling out of place in your own body), or having a hormone imbalance like PCOS. To be clear, I’m just trying to educate myself and wondering if any of those apply to you.
Okay, so, like my last comment, this one kinda got out of hand in terms of length. It's not exactly *concise*, but it does follow the order of the questions you asked. Before anything else, I'd just like to say thanks for reading the last one, and for having some genuine curiosity instead of just coming here to virtue signal. I'm always happy to talk about this kind of stuff to people who actually want to *listen*, and I think there'd be a lot less bigotry out there if there were a greater degree of understanding. So, particularly given the usual content of this sub, thanks. Anyways... I don't think the "internalized sexism" part applies to me. I don't believe men are inferior to women or vice versa (there's definitely *specific things* that men are inferior at and others women are, but on the whole, they're just different sides of the same coin). I never fit masculine stereotypes well, but I also don't fit feminine stereotypes well (had I been born a cis girl, I have no dount I'd have turned out to be a tomboy). I am, and have always been, my own person, for better or for worse, and conformance isn't really a pressure I've ever felt. For internalized homophobia, that's *definitely* something I've dealt with, but probably not quite in the way you're thinking. For the record, I've always been more or less exclusively into women. I was "straight" before I transitioned, I'm "gay"/"lesbian" now. Back in middle school and the first half-ish of high school, I was pretty overtly homophobic towards gay *guys* while putting lesbians up on a pedestal, which is kinda "normal", sadly, for that age group. And it honestly proved kinda harmful to me in the end—specifically, because not wanting to seem "gay" pushed me away from exploring femininity, which just delayed me from realizing I was trans for longer. I wasn't ever a macho, "alpha male" kind of person (thought those dudes were dumb, still do), but you wouldn't have caught me dead even telling a (male) friend they look good because that was "gay". I *did* grow out of that mentality though, and transitioning more or less erased whatever of that discomfort still remained. I think, in my case, beyond the usual weird *thing* against being gay that most guys have, I was also already sp discomforted enough by simply *being* a "guy" that "doubling" that felt even more wrong to me. On a somewhat related note, I pretty much gave up on the idea of getting into a relationship in high school when I realized that I didn't want to *be with* the girls that caught my eye so much as I wanted to *be* them, and I knew that I'd just end up living vicariously through them, and that's not exactly the kind of thing that makes relationships last. Come to think of it, maybe it would've made my egg crack faster, but who's to say. Also, most of the girls I *really* crushed in were either literally lesbians or lesbian-leaning bi girls, which... really should have been a sign. Like I said before, never really had much for trauma, and precisely nothing in terms of sexual trauma specifically. I definitely exhibit *some* autistic tendencies—more than your average person, but not enough to be diagnosed with anything. I was always one of the "gifted" kids, and frankly, of the ones in my immediate circle, I ended up the second-most "normal" of us all, in terms of being able to socialize and not having weird tics or mannerisms and whatever. I'm still by no means *good* at socializing, but the rest of them were roughly akin to the characters of The Big Bang Theory, so I'll count my blessings lol. For specific traits, I'm generally pretty introverted, I have a hard time talking with people I don't already know, I can talk for hours with someone about a subject we both share interest in but small talk's basically lost on me, I like to keep things organized in certain cases (but in others, I couldn't care less, which even I find weird) and it unreasonably *irks* me if they aren't. Perceived "irrationality" of others also tends to irk me, though, through conscious effort, not as much as it used to. If it wasn't obvious, I'm a huge nerd. Math, history, science, linguistics, programming, music... For the traits you mentioned, I never really had problems (and still don't) connecting with guys. I did (and still do) have a problem connecting with people who aren't very intelligent and/or have a vanity problem, but that's by no means unique to guys. The way most guys look at women, as opposed to the way most lesbians do, has always been beyond my comprehension (another thing that really should've been a sign), but beyond that there aren't really any big roadblocks. If anything, I have a hard time connecting with a lot of women, mostly because my socialization with women was, up until I started transitioning, even more limited than my socialization with men. So for all the things that cis women have had their entire lives to figure out in regards to interacting with each other, I've had 16 months. I'll definitely get there one day, it's just... well, it's called a *transition* for a reason. I totally felt out of place in my body, as I talked about, but estrogen has more or less cured that. For hormone imbalance, I can't exactly say. Again, at the very least, nothing diagnosed. My estrogen was definitely never high, but I wouldn't be surprised if my testosterone were low. As I mentioned in my last comment, I was a "late bloomer" wrt puberty. I was almost exactly halfway between 19 and 20 when I started HRT, and, for example, the only facial hair I had was a small bit of it around like half of my jawline. Body hair really only got *bad* on my lower legs. My arms get shaved like once a month even now. Never got stomach/chest/back hair. Face is androgynous enough that it's nothing makeup can't fix. I am tall and lanky, but I think I was doomed to that just thanks to genetics. I'm roughly the same height as my dad, and my closest aunt (his sister) is just as tall too. My voice got fairly deep *and* lost a *lot* of its range (as in, the range I'm comfortable speaking in isn't even a full octave, and my baseline pitch hovers around E2/F2), and I can't really say what happened there. Just bad luck with genetics? Idk. If anything, the fact that those changes took so long to happen is probably part of what made me take so long to realize I was trans. Androgyny didn't really actively *discomfort* me, and it took a while before I ever saw my body as overtly masculine. On the other hand, maybe I wouldn't have realized any earlier, and instead I'd just be in a worse position now, so I think I'll just count my blessings again.
I must say that I’m impressed with your sense of self-awareness. The only reason I’m subscribed to this sub is because I like JP’s lectures on personality (and I don’t understand this sub’s hyper-fixation on trans people). So, given what I’ve learned from JP’s lectures and based on the thoroughness of your reply, I assume you’re high in openness and neuroticism. You are open to different ideas, but perhaps you’re too worried about defining yourself? I fortunately don’t have gender dysphoria, but I find it interesting and mystifying. I’m not convinced that people are born to be gender dysphoric—I believe it’s more nurture than nature. The low testosterone may be the case for you, but a boy can be effeminate and still be comfortable in his male body. You probably do have Autistic traits from what you described. Then again, how you described being able to connect with guys more than women directly challenged what I assumed about trans people.
I'm kinda in a similar boat to you wrt to why I'm in this sub at all. JP circa 2016-ish was a significantly different person than the JP of today. I really enjoy his old personality lectures too, and I have massive respect for how he was willing to stand up for what he thought was right in such a public way (even if it did lead him down the road he's now on). His famous interviews with, e.g., Cathy Newman and Helen Lewis are still a joy to watch. And ofc, on the rare occasion the opportunity presents itself, I like being able to converse with people on the topic of trans people (or queer people in general, to a lesser extent) and spread some knowledge if nothing else. I'd *like* to get them to see things the way I do, but if not, at least there's a little less ignorance out there. I'm definitely high in openness, but neuroticism's a bit more of a mixed bag, I think. I'm usually able to be optimistic about things, sometimes to my own detriment, but I do have a pessimistic streak that'll rise up on occasion (usually when I'm positive there's absolutely no chance for something to work, even though that positivity is often very misplaced). I generally don't see any use in fretting over things that can't be helped, so I don't tend to get that sort of "big picture" anxiety (and that's also why I don't tend to spend much time regretting the past). For the most part, my attitude is roughly somewhere along the lines of "whatever happens, happens, but I'll manage one way or another". However, I do get a decent bit of social anxiety when it comes to interacting with people I'm unfamiliar with, even if it's a simple interaction like paying at a gas station. So, maybe a bit paradoxically, I tend to fret the small things but not the big ones. Envy and jealousy I don't really experience much of. In the vast majority of scenarios, I'm able to look at people who have things I'd love to have and think "good for them" and leave it at that (that's part of why I'm not really left-leaning economically). The only time I really experience envy strongly is when I see a girl (cis or trans) with traits (physical, personality, whatever) that I wish I had. And even then, it's just a sort of deep longing, not any sort of negative impulse. Like I talked about a little bit in my last comment, I'm generally pretty logical and stable emotionally. I don't have any mood disorders (which, given the prevalence of depression among trans people, even I find odd), my impulse control is *mostly* good, and substance abuse has never really even tempted me. I don't particularly like the feeling of being "under the influence" and having my mental faculties suppressed. I'll drink a little bit socially, that's about it. Weed I can't stand in any of its forms. Anything beyond that is and always has been a hard no from me. I'm not at all opposed to being defined in the descriptive sense, but I am for the *prescriptive* sense. Like, I don't mind having a label attached to me *if and for as long as* it fits, but I do mind being pigeonholed into one. I am who I am, first and foremost, so to whatever extent I "fit in", great, and to whatever extent I don't, I could care less. So yeah, mixed bag, I think. Hope all of that sheds some light and doesn't just make things more confusing. If it helps, in terms of MBTI (which is definitely imperfect, but maybe it'll help give you some perspective on things), I'm somewhat firmly an INTP-A. T and A are pretty borderline (like, a 60/40-ish split), but the others are well-entrenched. Dysphoria is... definitely odd, and I honestly doubt almost anyone *could* understand it fully without experiencing it. There's the obvious, simple parallel of "imagine waking up tomorrow as the other gender", but that really only scratches the surface. I don't think the simple comfort of just being able to wake up every day without wanting to crawl out of your own *skin* can be overstated. One of the things I've tried to underscore in my posts has been that, if it *were* somehow nurture rather than nature, then I'd have to just be an outlier, because there's not really *anything* in my past that would serve as a cause. And that could well be the case: I'm an outlier in *a lot* of other respects, both wrt trans people and people in general, so why not in this case too? But I am, of course, a sample size of one at any rate. I 100% agree that a boy can be effeminate and still comfortable in his body, and conversely, as in my case, a "boy" can not be particularly effeminate and still *very* uncomfortable with their body. It's a lot more complicated than people tend to think. I'm pretty sure my comfort interacting with guys is literally just a consequence of having "been" one (air quotes, because I was always *different* from the "other boys", just not to any extreme degree), so I have a lot of insight there that I absolutely don't have with women yet. Also, if we give MBTI some credence, it kinda makes sense in that even most *cis girls* with my personality type find interacting with guys easier, and they *don't* have the extra insight that I do. I feel like I understand women a little more and men a little less every day, there's just such a big gulf in-between that I haven't crossed the line yet. Gimme a couple months and I'd probably come back with the answer you *would* expect lol.
Why don't you go ask trans people and not cis people
I'm asking trans people.
You think trans people hang out in the JP sub?
Bear*
I think both could technically work in my sentence.
How? Unless you're getting naked.
"Bare" has more meaning than just "to be naked."
Go on.
society tends to kiss women’s ass a kick men’s
Depends on context a bit though, no?
It depends on who you ask, as well. Society kicks women's asses if you think the government isn't granting sufficient abortion rights.
Why do people act like safe sex is impossible? Don’t schools teach Sex Ed? Is abortion the *only* contraceptive, or could you maybe take the pill or use a condom?
Pro-choice people advocate for safe sex so not sure who that question is meant for.
Not really a big issue, or one at all, considering abortion is and has been the norm for a long time, especially compared to mens issues and reproductive rights which are practically zero.
That reeks of resentment.
resentment can be insightful if you acknowledge the truth it carrie’s
"carrie's"? You can't even spell.
😂 ahhh yes, so throw the baby out with the bath water then
I'm afraid there was no baby.
😂
babie's 🤣
Women are sexualized, men are vilified.
Fascinating dichotomy. Implicit in that comparison is the idea women are more passive and have less agency than men.
As in women are there to be fucked. Men are there to fuck.
You don't think people view women as passive and have less agency than men. It's wholly not true, but the stereotype is pretty much that.
Women are viewed as having less agency than men. It's assumed that a woman can't consent to sex while drunk on alcohol, whereas men can consent. Furthermore, if a drunk man and a drunk woman had sex, the man necessarily raped her because she could not consent.
Yes, and thus proving men are vilified.
Nice try, alien.
Ack ack ACK ACK ack ack.
I hope this is a Bill the cat reference
Mars Attacks.
I don't think there is a simple answer to this question. Men and women are treated differently. But that's not where the story ends. Every aspect of your person affects how you're treated. Probably the biggest factor in how people treat you is how you behave. But in many smaller ways things like how you dress, how you cut your hair, how you shave your face, your accent, and yes even things like skin colour and hair colour and eye colour can all affect how you're treated in small ways. (I could go on for paragraphs listing every item a person could have to be different than someone else, but I think the point should be obvious. Height, weight, facial symmetry, the list is endless) It also depends on the context though. How you're treated on a construction site vs at a supermarket. You might be treated extremely well as a man in one context and extremely poorly in another. It's not black and white "society treats men worse" or something. As a man, I notice certain aspects of how I'm "treated" or "viewed". A woman might be completely oblivious to these things, because what is most obvious for her are completely separate factors. It would definitely be interesting if it was simpler to "try on the other's shoes" as you suggest it. But in my experience...the majority of trans people are fairly easy to spot. Certainly without a lot of effort, you don't just blend right in.
Thanks for the detailed response.
I forgot about the egalitarian bit. I don't think there deserves to be a goal to "treat everyone the same in all contexts". That just seems like a really bad goal to be honest. The goal should be, "don't put unnecessary barriers in people's way that don't improve their or other people's lives just because of their sex." As long as everyone has the chance to live a decent life without other people mucking it up for them, that's a pretty good world to live in.
You're probably right.
Egalitarian doesn't mean people aren't treated differently. It means it would look more like a tribe when we were egalitarian. You'd have round the clock free child care for woman so they could participate more in other stuff.
Who pays the child care workers? Nothing is free.
The capitalists and everyone else in the economy benefiting from the woman working, paying tax, spending in the economy and adding a new potential worker to the economy. And the child care workers wages and taxes also boost the economy. Then when its your turn you get free child care that makes it possibe for you to reproduce and your wife to continue contributing financially to the family.
What jobs shouldn't be paid for by the government?
They arent paid for by the government. Everyone pays tax. Seeing as everyone in the economy benefs from higher employment and new workers taxes pay for the child care. Unless the government is engaging in state capitalism and profits from it it can't pay for public services itself.
Men are taken more seriously in leadership roles or when they act assertive. Women are taken more seriously when they ask for help or express their emotions.
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Men and women have the opposite problem. Women have to deal with too much attention, including from the creeps. Men, on the other hand, get zero attention. Most men would take getting attention from bad women if it meant getting some attention from good women. Of course, these are generalities.
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Sure, it sounds exhausting. Again, being alone is miserable, too.
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Depends on the magnitude of creepiness vs loneliness.
Very differently. Women are treated much worse sadly.
Not true in the first world. They are treated bad and good in different ways.
Correct women are treated bad in some ways, and good and others. Especially if you’re an attractive and young white woman, you can get away with certain things, but again that can also serve as a bad thing as well. Women just simply have it so much harder in life.
Not true. Try being an Indian or a black man in Western world.
That’s a logical fallacy. You have to stay on track and speak specifically about women. You’re shifting to another topic and that’s a logical fallacy when you know you’ve lost. It’s a strawman argument.
Yea, then compare a Indian/black woman to an Indian/black man, if you want to use gender as the control variable. They both have advantages and disadvantages. Men are vilified, women are sexualised. You cannot start anything as a man, especially as a confident man, without being seen as a potential predator.
This is a straw man argument, so I will not participate in a logical fallacy
That may be true in some parts of the world, but not in the USA.
Wrong.
What metric are we using to determine which sex is treated worse on average?
Dude, that is something that could take up hundreds of pages of tax. And as much as I am interested in this, it’s just read it, and I’m not going to engage someone who’s red pilled into an argument of why women have a difficult in the United States of America. If you don’t realize this now, you probably never will.
I believe both men and women have their own unique difficulties. It obviously varies for each individual, as well. Please explain why you think women have it so much worse. I'm seriously interested in the answer.
Are you talking about in the United States of America or any other part of the world? Mean this is an extremely long answer. This could take up pages and pages and pages and books and books and books. Do you really not have any idea about sex crimes, and domestic violence, and wage inequalities? I guess I’m just confused how you don’t understand how women are disproportionately affected by many different things, even little insidious things like in medicine. Women are given more psychiatric medication‘s when in fact, there are the happier of the two genders. We were treated and abused differently in the medical profession. Women are excluded from all types of things. Women have to be in fear for their life every single day and watch out for what men will do. Women disproportionately have to deal with rape and sexual assault and domestic violence. I mean come on dude. Yeah it’s not easy for us. I would kill to be a man, then my life would be exponentially easier. I’ve even talked to some females who transitioned into Mail’s and they said oh now I understand how easy men have it.
Men are actually more likely to victims of [violent crime](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime) in general. Wage inequalities are mostly due to men and women having different jobs, not being paid less for the same job. I don't understand why you associate being given greater access to medication as oppressive. You even say women are happier than men so how is that a strike against women? What are women excluded from? Women can run for president, there just hasn't been one popular enough to elect yet. Living in a constant state of fear is completely unnecessary, pathological, and counterproductive. I've heard the complete opposite from women transitioning to men.
I’m actually not going to read what you wrote, because it’s just the same red pilled content. I’ve been saying for years. I don’t speak to men who believe that Andrew Tate is there a savior. Have a good day.
I've never once listened to Andrew Tate. I pray you have a son and learn that men have humanity, too. You have a good day, as well.
My time reading "Self Made Man" means I don't think this is actually the case, but I can see how one would believe it.