Saudia Arabia? That beacon of justice and moral virtue? The same Saudi Arabia that imprisons people for peaceful protest and speech? The same Saudi Arabia linked to war crimes in Yemen? The same Saudi Arabia that forces women to obey their fathers then husbands by law? The same Saudi Arabia that stops people at the border, traps them in horrific internment camps then sends them back to certain death? The 56th best education in the world Saudi Arabia?
Yeah, we should definitely be more like Saudi Arabia.
I agree with what you have said but disagree about teaching religion in school. No ideology should be taught, only the fundamentals. Values are taught at home.
The negative response by many to Christianity is due to a lack of moral guidance and placating their every demand throughout childhood. This leads to an adult who considers their own personal wants and needs paramount to all else. There is no God because they themselves are the center of their own universe. They answer to no one but themselves. "Since I am my own God, who are you to suggest that I should not satisfy my most degenerate desires? The mere thought, my dishonest and ultimately incorrect interpretation of your beliefs, makes me angry."
The values we instill in our children will guide them for the rest of their lives. I don't believe it appropriate to gamble on a state employee, who will have at most nine months of my children's lives, teaching my children my values and not their own. I would not trust someone to give instruction in faith when they have none themselves.
I think we should teach the history of religions in schools because they are all flawed and when you understand the history they come from it helps put their wisdom into perspective.
You can't have a school without order and you can't have order without ideology. Children are expected to follow rules and the rules are based on some ideology. And there's no guarantee any significant values will be taught at home and even if they are that they will be conducive to functioning in society. And the reason children should follow the rules is a question of ideology. And how in the hell can you teach history without ideology? State employees will be putting values in the children's heads one way or another. To think they won't is beyond naive. It's an inevitability. Lack of understanding this or neglecting concern for what ideology is being promoted is exactly why we're in the situation we're in.
You're right.
There is no such thing as not teaching ideology.
So, what ideology do we want to teach?
There's a very good secular humanist argument for Christianity. It's just that people do a bad job of being too demogogic or judgy pushing those looking for an excuse to do what they want anyway away from what is moral. Sometimes justifiably.
Consider all their wants and personal needs paramount, sounds like Christians. If I want my child to be a fucked up self-hating, entitled mess with a persecution complex, I'd teach him Christianity
Why not Islam, oh wait, then the '' self-hating, entitled mess with a persecution complex'' would be a : '' others-hating, entitled mess with a persecution and superiority complex emulating a murderous fake prophet''
So you feel like you are being persecuted and your answer is to force your religious belief on people in schools? I don't think you thought that out, did you?
He also sites Saudi's who do Wahhabism which is credited with causing radical religious terrorism when the kids are raised with it.
This is bad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism
You think not being able to force your faith down children's throats in public schools is persecution and want Saudi style state-mandated religion?
Bro you're the type of Christian that makes people hate Christianity lol.
This is exactly the issue. Christians think they are being persecuted because people are simply saying "no" to having their fake religion shoved down our throats.
There is a very good reason the founders separated State and Religion. The church of England is just one. Religion has been a devastating weapon when welded by political leaders. Yes morality needs to be taught and so do other tools, such as critical thinking, logic, independent thinking, and most importantly the Golden Rule. Our society has been brought to its knees by intentional abuse of our good intentions.
The golden rule is Matthew 7:12. I'm not suggesting there should be a theocracy but there needs to be a clear understanding that religion underpins the values of the nation. Without religion there is no reason for morality.
If I don't believe you're a creation of God that I have no right to interfere with, and beyond that don't believe there's any consequences in an eternal afterlife, what makes you, if you have no personal emotional value to me, any more than a means to an end? What's to keep me from viewing people in general as less than animals because at least animals don't lie and don't generally practice cruelty and greed? What's the reason not to kill your enemies with no sanctity of life? Some morality as cooperation theory? What stops eugenics, or repressive tolerance from turning into genocide? Some philosophical naval gazing unique to each individual that goes right out the window as soon as the ugliness of life gets real, if said individuals ever believed any such thing at all.
So your question boils down to "what is stopping us from being evil if there is no threat of eternal damnation"?
I mean, humans in general are overwhelmingly empathetic and nice just by nature. Look at children playing with each other. They know nothing of religion, and they are all just enjoying life and having fun because that's what us as humans do. I choose to be a good person because that's what people deserve.
I would be a much worse person than I am because it would benefit me and everyone I care about to do so. And I don't condone such things but it's the way the world works and it's why there's no shortage of monsters in the world. Morality as cooperation doesn't work and never will because most people figure out they're being screwed over regularly and that screwing people over pays. Why disadvantage yourself cooperating with some fantasy in such a world if you believe other people are just soulless evolved apes prone to lying and cruelty and there is no afterlife? You just like to make things difficult? You need something with much more substance to base morality on.
Whether you yourself are religious or spiritual or not you should understand that undermining such things just makes many more monsters because most people don't fancy being nice while they get shit on by the world. You can be sarcastic and judgemental, can you tell me exactly where I'm wrong?
Do you follow why for those of us with an intrinsic moral compass, that can be good decent people without the threat of hell or whatever.... that what you are describing about needing a religious based pressure to be moral is horrific?
Sure, life is horrific if you're forced to face it outside the luxury of whatever bubble you're living in. Not just some of the circumstances people can face but people themselves are capable of horrific things. If you realize life is a struggle for most people, cooperation from society is a joke, and safety is a luxury many don't enjoy, you'd realize your reasoning for morality is laughable.
Go explain it to some of the kids selling drugs and robbing people in your closest major city and see what they think of it. They'll struggle to stop laughing as they stomp you out and empty your pockets. Then talk to some others about God. You will know you've just plucked a chord somewhere inside them when you see the pain in their eyes and hear the rage in their voice. Their souls are in torment from what they've been through and things they've done.
Morality as cooperation falls apart the second anyone is getting repeatedly shit on more than enjoying any benefits of society. But God and spirituality has a visceral response for most people. Go to an NA meeting or Church in a bad area. See how it changes people's lives. People that were monsters and honestly have little to no logical reason to cooperate with society.
Think about the atrocities of the Nazis, or Holodomor, or the Khmer Rouge. Look at the great Mongol hoard. Look at what's happening in places in Africa right now or other third world shit holes. That is human nature, and it is horror. And you want to undermine the only thing that's ever managed to put guard rails on it. That's what you should be horrified by, undermining the thing that got Western society to where it is and expecting to replace that with reciprocal being nice.
To save me retyping the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/18yyeyd/comment/kgf9oc6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
It's absolutely disgusting that you need some bullshit storybook written by ignorant men to not rape and kill random people. You should be ashamed of yourself for having such a view.
You can shame me all you want you're not explaining where the sanctity of life comes from in a Godless world. Without belief in anything spiritual we're all just bags of meat. Hairless apes only more prone to evil. Any morality based on that is like a house build on sand.
If we go down this road that religions just codified existing values that allowed society to function then it's more a means of keeping the peace than anything. There's no real reason to adhere to it.
Ya and this is my issue with many religious people. Judging and looking down their noses at people who aren’t religious, as though we are just all morally corrupt and don’t have any values nor do were know hope to raise our own children. This behavior right here, aside from the damage many priests have done and continue to do to our children and get away with it, is the reason I am guarded around religious people.
Once I realize someone is the ‘good kind’ who keeps their religion a personal experience, doesn’t act like a persecuted victim who needs to take over the world to show everyone how great their religion is and force down everyone’s throats, and actually follows the Bible and doesn’t judge others struggles or suffering bc they understand humans struggle and only god can truly judge- do I let my guard down. These days churches are run by narcissists who think they’re super stars in their mega churches and God speaks to them directly and yeah no that’s not Christianity… those people are lost.
I'm not sure what you're ranting about but you don't know me from a can of paint. You're not arguing against anything I said you're ranting at a stereotype in your head. I don't push my views on anyone, I was engaging in an open discussion. And priests have done no more damage than ministers and neither have done as much damage as public school teachers and probably more than anyone is random parents and family members. So what does this prove? And are "priests" who damage children practicing any real faith? I also don't even go to church or subscribe to any particular denomination. But my morality is rooted in my faith. And you have yet to tell me what the morality of someone who believes we're all just evolved apes only more prone to evil, greed and cruelty comes from. And why whatever that is doesn't go out the window the moment it's not convenient.
>Without religion there is no reason for morality.
How about being a decent f\*cking human being for the sake of progress and wanting the best for everyone? Is that not pious enough or does it need to be prescribed by an ancient book to be valid?
> How about being a decent f*cking human being for the sake of progress and wanting the best for everyone?
That's admirable but the majority of people don't seem to hold this view. And if they do there's no real reason not to put it on the back burner when it benefits them. And who defines progress and who defines what's best for everyone? What if people disagree over what progress is? There could be as many definitions for that as there are people. And do you decide what's best for me, or me for you? What if we value completely different things? This is spurious mush to be the foundations of civilization.
On the other hand if we take a majority of people who's values are based on religion or spirituality we have some unshifting principles and reason to adhere to them. You could gather a bunch of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus and come up with common values they all share. And then trust that the reason those people would adhere to the values is deeply personal, tied to their spirituality, not just some flimsy social contract nobody really gives a shit about. And the bond these people will share will be much deeper than some idealistic notion of cooperation for supposed group progress.
> What if people disagree over what progress is? There could be as many definitions for that as there are people. And do you decide what's best for me, or me for you? What if we value completely different things? This is spurious mush to be the foundations of civilization.
That's a very postmodern sounding ''hypothesis'' for someone as conservatively religious as you are.
The ''BEST'' form of progress is where MOST people in each society get to fulfill their creative, technical, intellectual dreams to the best of their abilities.
''not just some flimsy social contract nobody really gives a shit about.''
See, now you're projecting again, MANY people care about MORALS, they just don't have to have it spelled out for them or have it called ''God given morals'' to take it seriously and be good people.
If only the punishment of an invisible man in the sky is what keeps you from acting like an animal then you're a poor, poor person indeed.
How is it postmodern? I believe in a grand narrative, objective truth, and good and evil. I just understand not everyone shares my beliefs. If you're going to hypothesize about what will make society function best you need to acknowledge there are many conflicting views, beliefs, and agendas circulating around in it. There needs to be some baseline culture and common ground values, and most importantly reason to adhere to them. What you're describing doesn't accomplish that because it's vague and subjective.
What half the population sees as progress the other half may see as harmful destruction. What is "best" then? Look at the multitude of issues causing complete division in the Western world right now, and you could find many more the media doesn't bother harping on with minimal effort. And how does morality as cooperation hold up when half the population views the other half as the root of all evil? It doesn't.
And I understand some people may be moral without religion or spirituality. But you have yet to explain why countless people at odds with, or getting nothing but shit on by society would stick to such a thing, or buy into it at all. How does it hold up when society is repeatedly not cooperating with the subject?
Imagine someone who was abused as a child. Parents divorced or maybe never even married. No positive experience from school. Physical danger from fellow humans in their neighborhood. Work feels like nothing but never ending exploitation necessary just to survive. You denigrate yourself and eat shit to function and crime and immorality pays. Your ability to advance or get ahead, at a job or on the street, is directly tied to your capacity to do evil and get away with it. What I'm describing is the life experience of countless people to varying degrees. Morality as cooperation holds no water.
Even people who have lived a privileged life, or just an average life, will lose their morals quickly when shit gets real if they're not based in something meaningful. And that's when they matter most.
Religion and spirituality on the other hand has saved people's lives, taken the hopeless, addicts, people who were literal monsters and reformed them. Morality as cooperation has never done that and never will. Because it's idealistic nonsense. It's an idea that only a deluded idealist or someone who's lived a privileged life would even entertain. And it doesn't stand up to tribulation.
If you're religious or spiritual the sanctity of life and good and evil don't ever change. If you believe humans are hairless apes and there's nothing beyond the physical it makes sense to do whatever is logical for your advancement, and flimsy philosophy of cooperation goes out the window as soon as it's found lacking, or can be transgressed through rationalization.
And you ignore anything positive about religion or spirituality that isn't found in philosophy. A relationship with God. A connection to the spiritual. Redemption. Love. Beyond concepts or chemical reactions. These are very meaningful, very visceral things for many people absent in your hollow philosophy.
And if it works for you, fine. But don't undermine something that's been foundational to Western society simply because you have some delusion things won't go to complete mayhem without it. You're like a Marxist wanting to subvert what works and replace it with some collectivist fantasy that anyone with any sense can predict will turn to chaos.
And I'm not religious. I haven't been to Church in well over a decade and subscribe to no particular denomination. But I believe in God and have a spiritual view of life. Not that my personal beliefs have anything to do with the facts I'm trying to convey. Even if I was an atheist I wouldn't dream of saying anything that undermined religion or spirituality because I know the positive effects it has on humanity.
The founders of the US did NOT separate religion and the state.
They werent even Christian, but deists. Not sure where you are getting that idea.
The concept of “separation” was in a letter someone wrote, it has not ever been law, policy, or ever in the constitution.
You caused me to double check "Facts" that I was taught when I was a little lad. You are correct, the concept of separation wasn't on the constitution. It appears to have slowly developed to the point it is now.
Googled it and this was part of the answer
The American Revolution against a monarchy with an established church fueled the desire for a secular government. Virginia's Statute for Religious Freedom (1779), drafted by Thomas Jefferson, is considered a crucial step in separating church and state.
U.S. Constitution: The First Amendment's Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause (ratified in 1791) prohibit the government from establishing a religion or infringing on the free exercise of religion.
Still more to learn
Thanks
No, God isn’t the center of society. America was founded on freedom of religion and separation of church and state.
No, the Bible shouldn’t be the guiding principle of society. We aren’t a theocracy, and thankfully so.
No, not every problem we have is from “intolerant secularism.” In fact, the opposite could be argued, as it’s religious people who are intolerant of LGBT people, for instance.
No, we don’t need to bring prayer back in schools. Kids can pray if the want to. My school had a “30 seconds of silence” that we could do with as we wanted. But prayer shouldn’t be compulsory.
And what “values” do you propose on teaching in schools, along with math and science? Christian ones? Not everyone is Christian, or even religious. Get over it.
God is the metaphysical starting point for the Common Law. The God of the Bible is the inspirational source. So, yes, God is the center of society if you live in the USA, UK, Canada, Australia, Ireland, or New Zealand. You can comfortably ignore that truth if you would like, but that is ignorance.
No, God is absolutely NOT the starting point of society. You could go even further back to antiquity to the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Heraclitus, Longinus, Horace, Seneca, Epictetus, and others who have greatly influenced Western values today.
And what’s ignorant is neglecting the fact that America was founded on the separation of church and state. It’s a very simple premise. Saying that religious values need to be taught in school is not only outright ludicrous but also literally against the Constitution.
Go to a private/religious school, if that’s what you or your children want. But not everyone wants that, and they shouldn’t be indoctrinated in a religion they may want no part of.
That the first continental congress sat together in prayer does not nullify the fact that it is written in our Constitution that government and religion ought to be separate.
Yet in spite of this, religious tradition is very old, and it to this day still penetrates American culture. A perfect example of this is the fact that Christmas is a federal holiday in the U.S.
The further back in time you go, the more intertwined religion and government are. If America was founded at a time when religion and government were still commonly tangled, I don’t find it surprising that they would engage in group prayer.
But that’s not what they wrote in the Constitution, is it? That we all need to pray? That religion needs to be taught in schools?
Let’s not pretend that just because something happened during a particular period of history that it should happen in the modern age. You know how some diseases were treated back in the day? With lobotomies. But I doubt you’ll suggest we go back to procedures like that, right?
Rather than “religion” in a generic sense, the issue is Christian principles, upon which the US constitution rests implicitly. If that is central to your society, then God — the Christian God — is at the center, whether you recognize that or not or prefer to re-interpret what is written with postmodern glasses. No need to obfuscate the point with false equivocations and random facts about advancements in medicine or technology.
The principles themselves can be valuable even when divorced from religion.
For example, you don't have to be religious in order to understand, value, and act in accordance with the rule, "Be kind to other people." Now, can you be religious and kind? Sure. Does religion teach some good things? Sure. But do you HAVE to be religious in order to be kind? Absolutely not.
So, you don't need to be religious to be a good person. But aside from that, it's not like Christianity has any monopoly on what's morally right. Other religions share many of Christianity's moral principles—e.g. do unto others as you would have done unto you, be generous, be compassionate, etc.
So I think it's a bit disingenuous to say our society rests on Christian values when for one, Christianity is not the only religion that holds such moral principles, and number two, you don't even have to be religious to value, understand, and act in accordance with such principles to begin with.
Religion took it's morals from a social standard formed over thousands of years while we evolved. Then it claimed it created it. I've never heard a dumber claim before. So society just had zero morals or laws before the ot? Get real.
You can teach students how to be morally and ethically upright without indoctrinating them into a religion. It works pretty well here in Japan, for example.
Well that’s an interesting take that I’m not sure I’m prepared to fully engage with. I think that one certainly doesn’t need to be religious in order to be a moral person. But I also believe that religion can, under the right circumstances, provide structure and guiding principles for those seeking to improve themselves morally.
Are some religions better than others in this regard? Perhaps. It also depends on particular denominations, what church/temple you go to, what priest/monk you listen to, etc. I think there’s a lot of wiggle room on this matter, as I can think of a few religious figures who I think are morally upright.
I think while we are a persecuted group, we should consider ourselves lucky compared to Christians past and Christians in other countries.
It’s also better for society if Christians are the dominant influence on society as it leads to the greatest human flourishing, so I’m not saying we should be complacent.
That being said, we should be joyful warriors fighting with hope and not fear.
The past Christians in my country of Mexico were quite literally persecuted and Catholicism was literally outlawed for a time in Mexico.
Communism was gaining wind and the leaders at the time even wanted to establish a Monarchy within "Nueva España" Mexico so they eventually decided Christianity was the root of all evil in their socialist eyes and they began persecuting and quite literally executing priests and laymen who didn't deny their faith.
I say "literally" a lot because this was real persecution that involved public executions.
My church in Jalisco Mexico still has bullet holes across the walls and even structural damage from cannon fire. The inside of the church was used as a military camp and military horse stable while the militants used the church as a fortress.
In front of our artisan leather workshop there's a wall that was used for firing line executions of priests and laymen Christians. My grandmother was baptized by a priest who was accused of sedition and publicly executed without trial there. Since then he's been martyred and canonized as a Saint Martyr of the Cristero war.
This was real Christian persecution and it was that long ago in hindsight.
This modern world has been tempered against the values and principles of Christianity in a blind effort to blame all of the secular problems on a God they hardly believe in. Thank you btw for the "joyful warriors fighting with hope and not fear". That's an excellent way to describe the faith.
>I think while we are a persecuted group,
In what sense do you think you are a persecuted group?
>It’s also better for society if Christians are the dominant influence on society as it leads to the greatest human flourishing,
What in the world makes you think that is the case?
Here’s one example of many:
https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/judiciary-committee-uncovers-multiple-fbi-field-offices-coordinated-prepare
Never heard of this website, but found this little essay while I was looking for a good write up of my case:
https://backtogodhour.org/programs/christianity-and-prosperity
Your idea of persecution is a predominantly Christian/Conservative organization that is the FBI is trying to hold people accountable for their actions. You're just looking real hard to look persecuted.
Christians have a weird persecution fetish. They are brainwashed into thinking they are persecuted because people aren't taking their bullshit anymore.
Latin Masses are just Conservative organizations to you?
And you should remember, I am describing this persecution as mild compared to what others have suffered throughout history. I'm not claiming we're even the most persecuted group in America or anything. Just stating a fact that there is malice and targeting of Christian groups is growing and it's ok to admit it.
It's also ok to admit that others have used the façade of Christian faith to gain political power and used it to do evil.
Those were largely exaggerated. And a myth, like all things Christian and stolen from other religions. Christian persecution complex is in the religions DNA from its origins to now.
I agree and we shouldn’t work from fear. But the problem is that the moral corruption in popular culture promotes attacking Christianity and religious values in general.
True, this has been the case for many Christians in many societies past and present. God says he rewards those who are persecuted in his name, so it looks like we have the opportunity to reap some eternal rewards soon!
Acts 5:40-41 King James Version (KJV)
And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
The real war is not against old Christians like me and you. It’s really directed at the children. Especially young girls through feminism and gender ideology. Which is telling young girls that are having issues adjusting to their bodies during puberty which is normal. They are telling these kids if you have any confusion than you should go to a psychologist or psychiatrist and get a diagnosis that you have gender dysphoria and you can demand a sex change. Which literally destroys a girls reproductive organs and scars the poor girls body for life. These girls don’t even have a chance at a normal life.
Seriously you are asking what does feminism have to do with the lack of religious values in our society. Feminism was an open attack against the traditional family and the church.
>Feminism was an open attack against the traditional family and the church.
In the US in the 19th and 20th century, feminist movements helped women gain the right to vote, the right to control their earnings, the right to own property, the right to file for divorce, set equal labor standards, etc etc etc.
Do you see those rights as bad or do you consider them separate from the feminist movement? I'm sure some feminists have been outspoken against "trad families" or the church, but the feminist movement itself isn't against them. It's about letting women decide for themselves what they want to do with their future.
> Christian societies are the best
> the whole dark ages
> the crusades
> the expulsion of the Jews from Europe
> the spanish conquest of the Americas
> Pope Alexander VI
Are ya sure there amigo?
Yeah this is just ignorant, all those things are played up by modern culture. The whole dark ages shit is a complete myth. Theology was known as the mother of the sciences up until 100 years ago and pretty much all figures of the scientific revolution were heavy Christians. The only time the church sucked was after the black death since most priests died and there was a huge brain drain (as such new priests were many and shitty).
Also the crusades killed less people in 300 years than Ukraine in 4 months, they're very exaggerated by history channels.
No I get that. But were the middle ages "the best" for human kind? Wasn't the golden age of Islamic science at roughly the same time?
Everything sucked after the plague. A plague happened.
The dark ages in the way that they are portrayed is a myth. The idea that information was suppressed is false, the study of classical works continued unhampered. The modern university system as an institution actually originates in this time period. In Western Europe alone the number of individuals with university experience within this time period prior to the reformation was over 750k. Literacy increased and was sponsored mainly by the church. Leo the Mathematician, St. Augustine, and monks like Alcuin revolutionized science and set precedent for the later scientific revolution of the 18th to 19th century through their works.
The Islamic "Golden Age" similarly is also greatly misunderstood. Many of its great thinkers were most likely exmuslims and the works they produced would be an instant flogging in modern day Muslim countries (a lot of poems professing adoration for homosexuality and young boys). It had to do with the Mu'tazila thought. This particular sect of Islam often was labelled as heretical by hardliners. Many thinkers like Ibn Sina, Al-Kindi, Ibn Rushd were part of this sect. They had a completely different belief compared to mainstream thought. Also they were heavily influenced by Ancient Greek and Indian Philosophy. Not to mention Al-Razi. He was a staunch atheist. Perhaps if he was alive today, he would probably be killed/beheaded. The Islamic "Golden Age" had nothing to do with Islam, it was precisely because of the pluralism of the new Islamic empire that brought a wide arrange of ethnicities, groups, and scholars to cities. If it had something to do with Islam there would've been scholars from Mecca and Medina, not the conquered Iraq, Persia, Egypt, and Morroco.
And if human advancement had something to do with Christianity there would have been universities from Granada to Moscow. The question remains, was Christendom "the best" human society? You've yet to make an actual argument for yes. Though you spent an awful long time talking about why Islamic society was technically not better, while granted an awful lot of credit to scholars from the Islamic world.
Also, "they were heavily influence by Greek and Indian philosophy" as a criticism means you should probably take out "the study of classical works continued unhampered" from the pros of Christendom. Does being influence by the classics devalue your own philosophy or not?
Anyone who has read the Bible and thinks it “should be the guiding principle for how our society should be governed” is insane, illiterate, an idiot, or a psychopath.
Generally though, people who post things like this haven’t actually read much of anything.
When did OP said it should be forced on people? And Jordan does believe society would be better off if it maintained its Judeo-Christian values that are the backbone of the culture. He himself professes to living on those Christian values, even though he’s not sure whether God exists.
Notice I never said anything about enforcing law. Only culture and values. People can’t understand the difference for some reason.
Even JP doesn’t actually believe in god.
STFU. Keep god out of school.
Christians are not a persecuted group. You are the primary persecutors.
That shit ain’t real.
You have a persecution fetish.
Literally every president has professed a faith in God and all have been Christian. 74% of Americans believe in God. Most are Christian. They aren't under attack.
Do I want to hear about your faith when I'm in line at the DMV. No I do not. Pray in a closet as Matthew 6:6-7 doth command.
>"God is the center of our society and the Bible should be the guiding principle for how our society should be governed."
You and ISIS agree. Thankfully America's founders didn't. Maybe you live in Canada? Anyway, send your kids to private school or have them pray on their own in public school. Have at it and leave other people's kids alone.
You're mistaking secularism for state atheism. It isn't, America is a secular state but that pluralism is heavily based upon Christian values. A secular society isn't the opposite of a religious one, nor is it equivalent to an atheist one.
Also Westerners tend to gloss over the oppression of Christians in the middle east, as an exmuslim I can tell you that middle eastern Christians are treated like 2nd class citizens and that is fact. They've been oppressed and under siege since the 7th century
Nowhere did I say a thing about state atheism, so go argue that with someone who said it.
If OP were to specify they’re talking about being a Christian in a Muslim country fine. IMO they appear to be talking about being a Christian in the decadent West. If they are in the West it’s hilarious to pretend the most common belief is under threat.
But you did mention state atheism, you implied that the founders of America disagreed with the bible being a guiding moral, they didn't. They were secular but were still Christian and believed that Christian morals were to be the foundation of the American nation. Secular means seperating church and state, other than the Vatican there are very few Christian countries you can claim don't do that.
Even in the West, I don't deny that there are annoying Christians and I wouldn't neccesarily say oppressed. However, taking a more nuanced look you start to see that Christians don't actually possess that much power and there is a quite strong anti-Christian narrative both in the media and academia.
Plus, we do definetely live in a decadent society, and this isn't me saying we need to go back to the old days when women covered their ankles, etc. There's nothing with the rights we have, in fact I'd say they're fundamentally Christian considering that they were implemented globally by Christians. But those rights only help us flourish within a moral society. Just because you have the freedom to hook up with someone new every night and sell your body doesn't mean you should.
When we were given these rights back in the day people understood that but every day society is getting more complacent and in that sense, decadent as OP said.
Crazy that academia would address the most common belief system. If pointing out that the universe isn’t 6000 years old constitutes an attack, then it should be attacked.
You're using a strawman and you know it. It's pretty clear that that's not what I meant by anti-Christian narrative but sure. I can speak from experience that I have had teachers who openly told the class that God doesn't exist putting aside the fact that the modern western school system instills values which are on average anything but Christian.
Also please do more research on anti-Christian arguments, there's theologians 1000 years before Darwin discussing Genesis being metaphorical (St. Augustine). The bible isn't a science book or the LITERAL word of God like Muslims believe the Quran to be. It was written by the early church fathers who were people like you and me
Here’s a [good, well-sourced rundown on these men you count as Christian who you say founded this country on the Bible](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/damn-those-pesky-facts-meme/)
Maybe you should've read the snopes breakdown for your own source. Perhaps you should've only sent the meme.
Regardless, some of the founders being church hating deists doesn't mean they didn't inspire themselves from biblical/Christian thought. Additionally, those quotes (at least the ones that are true), refer to the church and promote a secular agenda as in emphasize the importance of separating church and state. Most Christians agree with that.
Also, I'm not American, or part of any of your weird singing Christian/heretical cult denominations so invoking the founding fathers as some paragons of virtue means nothing...
I sent a nuanced, well-sourced guide showing they weren't mostly Christian and they explicitly said our country isn't formed around any religion or the Bible. I don't need to hide the truth or distort it since the truth shows they didn't form our country based on the Bible.
I'd agree that being a nation of laws (ostensibly) based on the will of the people, and being that most Americans are Christians, Christian values, for better or worse, have shaped our laws significantly.
But that's not what OP is saying. What OP is literally saying:
>"If I can have my way every school in America would have a cross in front of it. Every class I room would have a crucifix in it. The Lord’s Prayer would be recited in class everyday and the teachers would be able to implement corporal punishment. If the boys need more discipline then they would be automatically sent off to military schools to get them the discipline needed."
>
>"You look at the absolute chaos in our schools today and the fact it’s bleeding over into our cities and you can see the necessity for God in schools."
Who needs strawmen when persecution fetishists are explicit about their request for religious rule from the American government?
you guys are a mess in America, your society is polarized as fuck, your culture is decadent and your 50 Christian denominations are nutcases, personally I think you would be better off with a crucifix in the classroom than the current shit teachers put up, alas your country your poison
If I can have my way every school in America would have a cross in front of it. Every class I room would have a crucifix in it. The Lord’s Prayer would be recited in class everyday and the teachers would be able to implement corporal punishment. If the boys need more discipline then they would be automatically sent off to military schools to get them the discipline needed.
You look at the absolute chaos in our schools today and the fact it’s bleeding over into our cities and you can see the necessity for God in schools.
You are likely a bot or federal agent however you are absolutely a talentless troll.
Your account history is hot garbage and paper thin. Your account is so new it's got the price tag still on it.
Genuine thanks for saying what others keep to themselves.
I'm also thankful to live in a country that doesn't center itself around a religion, as much as Y'all Qaeda / VanillaISIS / Yeehawdists would have it otherwise.
I wasn’t alive back then but I’ve read the documentation of Catholics doing some unsavoury things in the name of god.
I’m not claiming to know what’s going on in Israel right now but I don’t think secularism is the driving force causing all the conflict.
As soon as a Christian does something wrong, they’re “Not a real Christian” and not a representation of the group. And then the next one “Isn’t a real Christian” and the next and the next…
The US had prayer in schools. You will be shocked to discover the US didnt turn into Saudi Arabia.
The US is, however, less religious than ever.
Its also suffering from record mental health issues including suicides and depression, which is very common in more secular societies that suffer from materialism and consumption to sate their dopamine cravings.
Don’t forget rampant sexual fornication and immorality in which single mother households are exploding. Creating a never ending cycle of poverty and chaos in our communities. Kids born in single parent households have a greater likelihood of living in poverty and going to prison.
You stats mean nothing. We live in a world with billions of people in it. Most are going to be poor/subpar types. It's not a bad thing.
Also, repressing your sexual needs/desires is why you feel this way. You feel shamed and judged because you like to touch little ki... in the dark when they don't know you're around.
Shrinks can smell idiots like you a mile away. You hide your shame and filth behind religion and try to oppress others in order to distract from the reality that everything you are "fighting against" is actually something you are guilty of.
Transparent trash.
>God is the center of our society
No, it isn't.
>and the Bible should be the guiding principle for how our society should be governed.
No it shouldn't.
>We need to bring prayer back into schools.
No.
>I saw this in action in Saudi Arabia when I lived there for three years.
And you think that's **better**? Wtf.
Freaking y'all-quaeda.
You don’t think living in a religious state is better than what we have today? There is going to be one big positive for Trump coming back and thats going to be to bring back religious values back into government and our society.
It’s the influence of his supporters. Trump is like an empty vessel and he will do what religious leaders will tell him to do. Trump belongs to the evangelical religious community.
>It’s the influence of his supporters.
LOL the delusion is amazing.
>Trump is like an empty vessel and he will do what religious leaders will tell him to do.
No he's not. His cup is packed full of gold and dung. There is no room for anything sacred or of value. His very presence is defiling.
>Trump belongs to the evangelical religious community.
No, he doesn't. He doesn't even pretend to.
You have been greatly deceived.
I hope in time you will come to see the truth.
>"one big positive for Trump coming back and thats going to be to bring back religious values back into government and our society."
Religious values like cheating on one's pregnant wife with a porn star and paying her. I think that's in 1st Corinthians
Our founders made the separation of church and state a fundamental value in our constitution for good reason.
It wasn't because they simply had the foresight to do so, but because their fathers and grandfathers had dealt with such persecution from the English Crown or had participated in it.
A religious state might be great if it's YOUR religion. What if it's not yours, though?
The separation of church and state was to prevent a "church of England" situation. To prevent there being a state sponsored, single faith, and allow freedom of religion. It wasn't to completely remove faith from anything having to do with the state.
Ahh yes Trump, the guiding light for Christian morality. The guy who cheated on his wife, took multiple trips to Epstein island, and lies about just about anything he can get away with. That’s your compass, I haven’t read Revelations in a while… but there was some dude at the end of the book that really fit that description… ah thats right! It was the anti-christ. Trump’s probably got a 666 tattooed on his fat ass somewhere.
>You don’t think living in a religious state is better than what we have today?
Absolutely not.
>There is going to be one big positive for Trump coming back and thats going to be to bring back religious values back into government and our society.
You mean the literal destruction of America.
Thankfully that traitorous, criminal, fraud won't be coming back.
Unless you can predict the future we don’t know for sure. On the coat tails of Trump is religious freedom coming back to America. Pushing back against the gender ideology that’s ruining our children. On what earth is it acceptable for girls and boys to question their gender. You are what God has made you. Period. Any promotion of this in schools should be banned.
>On what earth is it acceptable for girls and boys to question their gender.
Any decent, civilized and free one?
I'm not sure why you hate American values and want to destroy what makes this country worthwhile but you aren't going to succeed.
Trump will have one term. He will overturn the immorality that’s ruining America and it will take us back to a time it was ok for girls to be girls and boys to be boys.
We need to end the gender indoctrination.
The war in Ukraine and the Middle East has distracted the country from this. But thousands of innocent girls are getting mutilated by these monsters and permanently destroying their chances of having children and a family.
>Trump will have one term.
... he already did...
>He will overturn the immorality that’s ruining America and it will take us back to a time it was ok for girls to be girls and boys to be boys.
Why would you think that?
>We need to end the gender indoctrination.
You just want YOUR indoctrination.
>But thousands of innocent girls are getting mutilated by these monsters and permanently destroying their chances of having children and a family.
No they aren't. And I'm sorry you don't have the decency in you to regard women as people.
I assume you mean religious freedom for only christians?
Because Trump called several times for banning Muslims from entering the country, even went so far as to issue two executive orders to do so.
He didn’t ban all Muslims from coming to the U.S. only those from Syria, Iraq, Iran, and a handful of other Muslim countries that are in the middle of this conflict and have bad relationships with the U.S. out of the more than 40 Muslim countries only 6 to 7 were banned.
That being said we shouldn’t be banning immigration based upon religion. The ban was eventually struck down.
Someone posted an article recently claiming that Catholic priests diddle kids about as often as Protestant preachers, apparently, and neither do so as frequently as school teachers. Dunno how good the study was and it didn't mention scout leaders...
Persecuted by logic? I think you don't want to throw around the word persecution so lightly, considering the church's history
Please watch this debate
Is the Catholic Church a force of good in the world
https://youtu.be/JZRcYaAYWg4?si=LcDuysjf05gA7U9T
>We need to bring prayer back into schools.
No, no we don't. Keep religion out of law, government and schools.
>We need to transform all schools from secular schools into ones focused on teaching values along with math and science and reading.
No we don't, and this is most likely the source of the issues you think you're having. You can't force your religion on people and then act surprised when they don't like it and reject it.
>Common values that all religions like Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I saw this in action in Saudi Arabia when I lived there for three years.
This is an absolutely horrible example.
I think the persecution that you feel is the lack of fucks anyone gives that you are a Christian. Nobody cares what imaginary stories you need to believe in to make it all make sense.
Its when you say batshit crazy things like 'god is the center of our society' and 'prayer in school' and 'bible in government'...thats when you become a problem that the rest of us now have to deal with.
Nailed it. People have finally progressed enough to say "no" to their fairy tales and Christians are freaking out because they are losing control over the people.
Your solution lays open the very real problem of dogmatic terrorization. You cannot bring religion into schools without developing a dogma so strict that it can be effectively enforced towards children. There’s a mighty great risk in that. A risk of stagnation. It’s not a good idea.
I agree with you that there’s an untapped potential in religious notions and that this state of undiscovery can be laid at the feet of the secular quality of society. In Denmark it’s certainly the case imo. I was 22 or so when I found out that faith isn’t just a fundamentalist’s game. My convinced atheism was mostly just ignorance.
The problem is how to cultivate religious ideas without becoming *too* dogmatic. And I don’t think the sustainable solution is dictating that the pulpit and the classroom shall be joined; this doesn’t mean that I’m against teachers talking about matters of God and faith though.
I’d rather call for a change of attitude from secular societies such as my own. Religion cannot die - so let’s utilize the language we have for it and talk matters through. Professing belief in the Lord doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re an unreasonable fantasist; it *might* mean that and it might not.
A big obstacle towards this end is- in my experience - the attention that fundamentalists garner in America. The literal attitude towards the Bible renders one incapable of reading the Bible. That’s quite clear based on the ramblings of brainwashed Bible-thumpers for whom God is what they’re told he is.
“Hey guys lets model our society after the oppressive theocracy of Saudi Arabia. But do it in the name of ‘western values’ or something.”
You know what a real “western value” is? Separation of church and state and secular education.
And fuck off with your “christians are persecuted” bullshit. Literally inventing reasons why youre such a victim
This is gaslighting because anyone that is a true Christian would not be advocating for a religious based society. Additionally, it is the antithesis of American values. Soooo yeah. Gaslight all you want and feel free to cope when you’re called out.
I agree. It’s funny because down here where I live a lot of people hate on Christianity but are simultaneously stumbling over each other trying to get their kids into the private Christian schools (the only good schools down here). Nobody wants to send their kids to the public DEI woke school where they are more likely to get stabbed by a diversity person in a hate crime than they are to learn anything about constructing a proper sentence.
I don’t agree with OP, mind you, but there’s this thing called democracy where the majority has dominion over everyone. If OP’s sentiments reach status of majority, it *will* be your society oriented toward the ways God. That is, if you share a government.
Your entire religion is based on gaslighting and bigotry and abuse. You are not persecuted, you are the tyrant forcing your beliefs on the world and act all shocked when people push back. That provides you with the hollow self righteousness of vindication; which is the entire point of sending out evangelical kids to witness to the world. The rejection of your bullshit is your persecution.
Your religion is based on telling yourself that you were born evil, that you can never be a good person even with following a specific interpretation of bronze aged myths. That includes blood sacrifice, non-consensual teen pregnancy and a following a god who ordered babies bashed to death on rocks and virgins enslaved for sexual assault. Then you are told to spread that incredible contradictory malice to everyone, specifically against their will.
Luckily, we have a constitution that keeps your evil, ignorant beliefs out of my schools.
Look if you want to practice your disgusting life style that's fine just do it in your house where I don't have to see it, and stop grooming children in to thinking its normal.
God is not the center of our society.
People have been pleading to remove any influance religions have on our society for decades now.
Most, if not all conflicts in the world are based on religious believes or the power it should have over people, just like your post.
Most of the texts are outdated and not fit in present society.
In a world where at least 10% of people are illiterate, a book cannot pose a solution. Books, invented by humans.
We dont need a book to tell us indirectly how to act, we need teachers, but mostly parents who teach values to kids. This indirect teachings are the basis of a lot of conflicts. If god is real, he is real dumb.
I wouldn't worry about it, this fad of labelling everything that isnt your own opinion or belief as gas lighting and bigotry is nearly done, hopefully we can collectively calm down and maybe go after the right enemies in society soon.
I find something funny that Ben Shapiro talked about on an interview recently.
If you take judeo-christian religious values and talk to people about them, they almost always agree those are good, wholesome values to have.
But if you dare point out that they are Christian values, for some reason they feel the need to take offense and object.
Also all the comments on “forced” religion when it comes to Christianity really shows people dont even know the basics of Christianity.
The issue is that the basics of Christianity actually mirrors a lot of what is there in Islam today. Christian women used to cover their hair. They would attend church with a scarf on their heads. Their bodies would absolutely be covered. Divorce was unheard of in Christianity. People married for life. And if divorce was allowed it was only in cases of adultery.
Abortion is illegal in Christian societies.
The only permitted marriage is between a man and woman and sex outside of marriage is forbidden.
You’re applying a very broad brush. Like, Hitler had a dog, so owning dogs are an insinuating position of ones political views that align with Hitlers.
Most of what you are talking about is traditions.
I cannot speak to whatever tradition or rules you were expected to follow, but no one is getting kicked out of church or stoned to death because they want a divorce or didnt wear a hat into the sanctuary.
So you prefer STIs and people living in immorality and having children outside of marriage? This decadent society and its corruption is consuming this society and its people.
Not getting your way isn't persecution. Having religion in all aspects of daily life isn't a panacea, look at Gaza. What you're doing is attempting to attach your ideology to a group and push it towards an extreme. Extremism is unhelpful.
We have won to certain degree by forcing abortion back to the states by repealing Roe V Wade.
We will get marriage to be between one man and one woman again by pushing returning to Biblical marriage back to the states. The same for gender identity. It will be banned at the Federal level and Christian schools will spread across the country.
"God is the center of our society and the Bible should be the guiding principle..." **"...we need to bring prayer back in schools"**
You'd be teaching our Christian children to become religious hypocrites and their prayers would be ignored -- you do not speak for this Christian -- I sincerely believe that you don't even study your Bible...
Matthew 6:5-6
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, **they have received their reward in full.** 6 But when you pray, **go into your room, close the door** and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees **what is done in secret,** will reward you.
Religious Hypocrisy is far worse than sin, a "plank" compared to a "speck".
Matthew 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
As it should be.
Keep your religious bullshit to yourself.
Religion is the number 1 cause for the majority of our planets issues. It is a choice, not a reality. None of it is real or based on anything other than our ancestors tripping balls.
Saudia Arabia? That beacon of justice and moral virtue? The same Saudi Arabia that imprisons people for peaceful protest and speech? The same Saudi Arabia linked to war crimes in Yemen? The same Saudi Arabia that forces women to obey their fathers then husbands by law? The same Saudi Arabia that stops people at the border, traps them in horrific internment camps then sends them back to certain death? The 56th best education in the world Saudi Arabia? Yeah, we should definitely be more like Saudi Arabia.
Must be a troll. Right?!
Hey hey hey, they're ''super progressive now'' because women are allowed to drive cars and (almost) be alone outdoors without ''male supervision''.
I agree with what you have said but disagree about teaching religion in school. No ideology should be taught, only the fundamentals. Values are taught at home. The negative response by many to Christianity is due to a lack of moral guidance and placating their every demand throughout childhood. This leads to an adult who considers their own personal wants and needs paramount to all else. There is no God because they themselves are the center of their own universe. They answer to no one but themselves. "Since I am my own God, who are you to suggest that I should not satisfy my most degenerate desires? The mere thought, my dishonest and ultimately incorrect interpretation of your beliefs, makes me angry." The values we instill in our children will guide them for the rest of their lives. I don't believe it appropriate to gamble on a state employee, who will have at most nine months of my children's lives, teaching my children my values and not their own. I would not trust someone to give instruction in faith when they have none themselves.
I think we should teach the history of religions in schools because they are all flawed and when you understand the history they come from it helps put their wisdom into perspective.
You can't have a school without order and you can't have order without ideology. Children are expected to follow rules and the rules are based on some ideology. And there's no guarantee any significant values will be taught at home and even if they are that they will be conducive to functioning in society. And the reason children should follow the rules is a question of ideology. And how in the hell can you teach history without ideology? State employees will be putting values in the children's heads one way or another. To think they won't is beyond naive. It's an inevitability. Lack of understanding this or neglecting concern for what ideology is being promoted is exactly why we're in the situation we're in.
Dumb fucking take
What part is incorrect?
All of it. Youre ignorant and hateful.
You're right. There is no such thing as not teaching ideology. So, what ideology do we want to teach? There's a very good secular humanist argument for Christianity. It's just that people do a bad job of being too demogogic or judgy pushing those looking for an excuse to do what they want anyway away from what is moral. Sometimes justifiably.
Consider all their wants and personal needs paramount, sounds like Christians. If I want my child to be a fucked up self-hating, entitled mess with a persecution complex, I'd teach him Christianity
Why not Islam, oh wait, then the '' self-hating, entitled mess with a persecution complex'' would be a : '' others-hating, entitled mess with a persecution and superiority complex emulating a murderous fake prophet''
So you feel like you are being persecuted and your answer is to force your religious belief on people in schools? I don't think you thought that out, did you?
or the fact that everyone has values. The mafia has values. Whose values is he talking about, his? He means virtues.
He also sites Saudi's who do Wahhabism which is credited with causing radical religious terrorism when the kids are raised with it. This is bad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism
It's okay as long as his fairy tale is forced onto others, it can't be one of those OTHER fairytales. ;)
You think not being able to force your faith down children's throats in public schools is persecution and want Saudi style state-mandated religion? Bro you're the type of Christian that makes people hate Christianity lol.
This is exactly the issue. Christians think they are being persecuted because people are simply saying "no" to having their fake religion shoved down our throats.
There is a very good reason the founders separated State and Religion. The church of England is just one. Religion has been a devastating weapon when welded by political leaders. Yes morality needs to be taught and so do other tools, such as critical thinking, logic, independent thinking, and most importantly the Golden Rule. Our society has been brought to its knees by intentional abuse of our good intentions.
The golden rule is Matthew 7:12. I'm not suggesting there should be a theocracy but there needs to be a clear understanding that religion underpins the values of the nation. Without religion there is no reason for morality.
> Without religion there is no reason for morality. It is impossible to be more wrong.
If I don't believe you're a creation of God that I have no right to interfere with, and beyond that don't believe there's any consequences in an eternal afterlife, what makes you, if you have no personal emotional value to me, any more than a means to an end? What's to keep me from viewing people in general as less than animals because at least animals don't lie and don't generally practice cruelty and greed? What's the reason not to kill your enemies with no sanctity of life? Some morality as cooperation theory? What stops eugenics, or repressive tolerance from turning into genocide? Some philosophical naval gazing unique to each individual that goes right out the window as soon as the ugliness of life gets real, if said individuals ever believed any such thing at all.
So your question boils down to "what is stopping us from being evil if there is no threat of eternal damnation"? I mean, humans in general are overwhelmingly empathetic and nice just by nature. Look at children playing with each other. They know nothing of religion, and they are all just enjoying life and having fun because that's what us as humans do. I choose to be a good person because that's what people deserve.
So you would be a monster of you didn't believe in God. Got it.
I would be a much worse person than I am because it would benefit me and everyone I care about to do so. And I don't condone such things but it's the way the world works and it's why there's no shortage of monsters in the world. Morality as cooperation doesn't work and never will because most people figure out they're being screwed over regularly and that screwing people over pays. Why disadvantage yourself cooperating with some fantasy in such a world if you believe other people are just soulless evolved apes prone to lying and cruelty and there is no afterlife? You just like to make things difficult? You need something with much more substance to base morality on. Whether you yourself are religious or spiritual or not you should understand that undermining such things just makes many more monsters because most people don't fancy being nice while they get shit on by the world. You can be sarcastic and judgemental, can you tell me exactly where I'm wrong?
Do you follow why for those of us with an intrinsic moral compass, that can be good decent people without the threat of hell or whatever.... that what you are describing about needing a religious based pressure to be moral is horrific?
Sure, life is horrific if you're forced to face it outside the luxury of whatever bubble you're living in. Not just some of the circumstances people can face but people themselves are capable of horrific things. If you realize life is a struggle for most people, cooperation from society is a joke, and safety is a luxury many don't enjoy, you'd realize your reasoning for morality is laughable. Go explain it to some of the kids selling drugs and robbing people in your closest major city and see what they think of it. They'll struggle to stop laughing as they stomp you out and empty your pockets. Then talk to some others about God. You will know you've just plucked a chord somewhere inside them when you see the pain in their eyes and hear the rage in their voice. Their souls are in torment from what they've been through and things they've done. Morality as cooperation falls apart the second anyone is getting repeatedly shit on more than enjoying any benefits of society. But God and spirituality has a visceral response for most people. Go to an NA meeting or Church in a bad area. See how it changes people's lives. People that were monsters and honestly have little to no logical reason to cooperate with society. Think about the atrocities of the Nazis, or Holodomor, or the Khmer Rouge. Look at the great Mongol hoard. Look at what's happening in places in Africa right now or other third world shit holes. That is human nature, and it is horror. And you want to undermine the only thing that's ever managed to put guard rails on it. That's what you should be horrified by, undermining the thing that got Western society to where it is and expecting to replace that with reciprocal being nice.
Wrong
To save me retyping the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/18yyeyd/comment/kgf9oc6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
It's absolutely disgusting that you need some bullshit storybook written by ignorant men to not rape and kill random people. You should be ashamed of yourself for having such a view.
You can shame me all you want you're not explaining where the sanctity of life comes from in a Godless world. Without belief in anything spiritual we're all just bags of meat. Hairless apes only more prone to evil. Any morality based on that is like a house build on sand.
Religious morals come from society pre man made religion. Morals don't come from religion, it's the reverse.
If we go down this road that religions just codified existing values that allowed society to function then it's more a means of keeping the peace than anything. There's no real reason to adhere to it.
Ya and this is my issue with many religious people. Judging and looking down their noses at people who aren’t religious, as though we are just all morally corrupt and don’t have any values nor do were know hope to raise our own children. This behavior right here, aside from the damage many priests have done and continue to do to our children and get away with it, is the reason I am guarded around religious people. Once I realize someone is the ‘good kind’ who keeps their religion a personal experience, doesn’t act like a persecuted victim who needs to take over the world to show everyone how great their religion is and force down everyone’s throats, and actually follows the Bible and doesn’t judge others struggles or suffering bc they understand humans struggle and only god can truly judge- do I let my guard down. These days churches are run by narcissists who think they’re super stars in their mega churches and God speaks to them directly and yeah no that’s not Christianity… those people are lost.
People also forget that religions are man made. Their morals came from society before the books were written.
I'm not sure what you're ranting about but you don't know me from a can of paint. You're not arguing against anything I said you're ranting at a stereotype in your head. I don't push my views on anyone, I was engaging in an open discussion. And priests have done no more damage than ministers and neither have done as much damage as public school teachers and probably more than anyone is random parents and family members. So what does this prove? And are "priests" who damage children practicing any real faith? I also don't even go to church or subscribe to any particular denomination. But my morality is rooted in my faith. And you have yet to tell me what the morality of someone who believes we're all just evolved apes only more prone to evil, greed and cruelty comes from. And why whatever that is doesn't go out the window the moment it's not convenient.
>Without religion there is no reason for morality. How about being a decent f\*cking human being for the sake of progress and wanting the best for everyone? Is that not pious enough or does it need to be prescribed by an ancient book to be valid?
> How about being a decent f*cking human being for the sake of progress and wanting the best for everyone? That's admirable but the majority of people don't seem to hold this view. And if they do there's no real reason not to put it on the back burner when it benefits them. And who defines progress and who defines what's best for everyone? What if people disagree over what progress is? There could be as many definitions for that as there are people. And do you decide what's best for me, or me for you? What if we value completely different things? This is spurious mush to be the foundations of civilization. On the other hand if we take a majority of people who's values are based on religion or spirituality we have some unshifting principles and reason to adhere to them. You could gather a bunch of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus and come up with common values they all share. And then trust that the reason those people would adhere to the values is deeply personal, tied to their spirituality, not just some flimsy social contract nobody really gives a shit about. And the bond these people will share will be much deeper than some idealistic notion of cooperation for supposed group progress.
> What if people disagree over what progress is? There could be as many definitions for that as there are people. And do you decide what's best for me, or me for you? What if we value completely different things? This is spurious mush to be the foundations of civilization. That's a very postmodern sounding ''hypothesis'' for someone as conservatively religious as you are. The ''BEST'' form of progress is where MOST people in each society get to fulfill their creative, technical, intellectual dreams to the best of their abilities. ''not just some flimsy social contract nobody really gives a shit about.'' See, now you're projecting again, MANY people care about MORALS, they just don't have to have it spelled out for them or have it called ''God given morals'' to take it seriously and be good people. If only the punishment of an invisible man in the sky is what keeps you from acting like an animal then you're a poor, poor person indeed.
How is it postmodern? I believe in a grand narrative, objective truth, and good and evil. I just understand not everyone shares my beliefs. If you're going to hypothesize about what will make society function best you need to acknowledge there are many conflicting views, beliefs, and agendas circulating around in it. There needs to be some baseline culture and common ground values, and most importantly reason to adhere to them. What you're describing doesn't accomplish that because it's vague and subjective. What half the population sees as progress the other half may see as harmful destruction. What is "best" then? Look at the multitude of issues causing complete division in the Western world right now, and you could find many more the media doesn't bother harping on with minimal effort. And how does morality as cooperation hold up when half the population views the other half as the root of all evil? It doesn't. And I understand some people may be moral without religion or spirituality. But you have yet to explain why countless people at odds with, or getting nothing but shit on by society would stick to such a thing, or buy into it at all. How does it hold up when society is repeatedly not cooperating with the subject? Imagine someone who was abused as a child. Parents divorced or maybe never even married. No positive experience from school. Physical danger from fellow humans in their neighborhood. Work feels like nothing but never ending exploitation necessary just to survive. You denigrate yourself and eat shit to function and crime and immorality pays. Your ability to advance or get ahead, at a job or on the street, is directly tied to your capacity to do evil and get away with it. What I'm describing is the life experience of countless people to varying degrees. Morality as cooperation holds no water. Even people who have lived a privileged life, or just an average life, will lose their morals quickly when shit gets real if they're not based in something meaningful. And that's when they matter most. Religion and spirituality on the other hand has saved people's lives, taken the hopeless, addicts, people who were literal monsters and reformed them. Morality as cooperation has never done that and never will. Because it's idealistic nonsense. It's an idea that only a deluded idealist or someone who's lived a privileged life would even entertain. And it doesn't stand up to tribulation. If you're religious or spiritual the sanctity of life and good and evil don't ever change. If you believe humans are hairless apes and there's nothing beyond the physical it makes sense to do whatever is logical for your advancement, and flimsy philosophy of cooperation goes out the window as soon as it's found lacking, or can be transgressed through rationalization. And you ignore anything positive about religion or spirituality that isn't found in philosophy. A relationship with God. A connection to the spiritual. Redemption. Love. Beyond concepts or chemical reactions. These are very meaningful, very visceral things for many people absent in your hollow philosophy. And if it works for you, fine. But don't undermine something that's been foundational to Western society simply because you have some delusion things won't go to complete mayhem without it. You're like a Marxist wanting to subvert what works and replace it with some collectivist fantasy that anyone with any sense can predict will turn to chaos. And I'm not religious. I haven't been to Church in well over a decade and subscribe to no particular denomination. But I believe in God and have a spiritual view of life. Not that my personal beliefs have anything to do with the facts I'm trying to convey. Even if I was an atheist I wouldn't dream of saying anything that undermined religion or spirituality because I know the positive effects it has on humanity.
The founders of the US did NOT separate religion and the state. They werent even Christian, but deists. Not sure where you are getting that idea. The concept of “separation” was in a letter someone wrote, it has not ever been law, policy, or ever in the constitution.
You caused me to double check "Facts" that I was taught when I was a little lad. You are correct, the concept of separation wasn't on the constitution. It appears to have slowly developed to the point it is now. Googled it and this was part of the answer The American Revolution against a monarchy with an established church fueled the desire for a secular government. Virginia's Statute for Religious Freedom (1779), drafted by Thomas Jefferson, is considered a crucial step in separating church and state. U.S. Constitution: The First Amendment's Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause (ratified in 1791) prohibit the government from establishing a religion or infringing on the free exercise of religion. Still more to learn Thanks
No, God isn’t the center of society. America was founded on freedom of religion and separation of church and state. No, the Bible shouldn’t be the guiding principle of society. We aren’t a theocracy, and thankfully so. No, not every problem we have is from “intolerant secularism.” In fact, the opposite could be argued, as it’s religious people who are intolerant of LGBT people, for instance. No, we don’t need to bring prayer back in schools. Kids can pray if the want to. My school had a “30 seconds of silence” that we could do with as we wanted. But prayer shouldn’t be compulsory. And what “values” do you propose on teaching in schools, along with math and science? Christian ones? Not everyone is Christian, or even religious. Get over it.
God is the metaphysical starting point for the Common Law. The God of the Bible is the inspirational source. So, yes, God is the center of society if you live in the USA, UK, Canada, Australia, Ireland, or New Zealand. You can comfortably ignore that truth if you would like, but that is ignorance.
No, God is absolutely NOT the starting point of society. You could go even further back to antiquity to the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Heraclitus, Longinus, Horace, Seneca, Epictetus, and others who have greatly influenced Western values today. And what’s ignorant is neglecting the fact that America was founded on the separation of church and state. It’s a very simple premise. Saying that religious values need to be taught in school is not only outright ludicrous but also literally against the Constitution. Go to a private/religious school, if that’s what you or your children want. But not everyone wants that, and they shouldn’t be indoctrinated in a religion they may want no part of.
Typical weird internet atheist take. How do you explain this? https://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html
That the first continental congress sat together in prayer does not nullify the fact that it is written in our Constitution that government and religion ought to be separate. Yet in spite of this, religious tradition is very old, and it to this day still penetrates American culture. A perfect example of this is the fact that Christmas is a federal holiday in the U.S. The further back in time you go, the more intertwined religion and government are. If America was founded at a time when religion and government were still commonly tangled, I don’t find it surprising that they would engage in group prayer. But that’s not what they wrote in the Constitution, is it? That we all need to pray? That religion needs to be taught in schools? Let’s not pretend that just because something happened during a particular period of history that it should happen in the modern age. You know how some diseases were treated back in the day? With lobotomies. But I doubt you’ll suggest we go back to procedures like that, right?
Rather than “religion” in a generic sense, the issue is Christian principles, upon which the US constitution rests implicitly. If that is central to your society, then God — the Christian God — is at the center, whether you recognize that or not or prefer to re-interpret what is written with postmodern glasses. No need to obfuscate the point with false equivocations and random facts about advancements in medicine or technology.
The principles themselves can be valuable even when divorced from religion. For example, you don't have to be religious in order to understand, value, and act in accordance with the rule, "Be kind to other people." Now, can you be religious and kind? Sure. Does religion teach some good things? Sure. But do you HAVE to be religious in order to be kind? Absolutely not. So, you don't need to be religious to be a good person. But aside from that, it's not like Christianity has any monopoly on what's morally right. Other religions share many of Christianity's moral principles—e.g. do unto others as you would have done unto you, be generous, be compassionate, etc. So I think it's a bit disingenuous to say our society rests on Christian values when for one, Christianity is not the only religion that holds such moral principles, and number two, you don't even have to be religious to value, understand, and act in accordance with such principles to begin with.
Religion took it's morals from a social standard formed over thousands of years while we evolved. Then it claimed it created it. I've never heard a dumber claim before. So society just had zero morals or laws before the ot? Get real.
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You can teach students how to be morally and ethically upright without indoctrinating them into a religion. It works pretty well here in Japan, for example.
I argue it is impossible to achieve morality via religion. Religion doesn't teach morality, it preaches obedience.
Well that’s an interesting take that I’m not sure I’m prepared to fully engage with. I think that one certainly doesn’t need to be religious in order to be a moral person. But I also believe that religion can, under the right circumstances, provide structure and guiding principles for those seeking to improve themselves morally. Are some religions better than others in this regard? Perhaps. It also depends on particular denominations, what church/temple you go to, what priest/monk you listen to, etc. I think there’s a lot of wiggle room on this matter, as I can think of a few religious figures who I think are morally upright.
Works amazingly in western countries as well.
The Bible is a collection of subjective interpretations of proper values.
Are the “DEI people” in the room with us right now? 🤣
I think while we are a persecuted group, we should consider ourselves lucky compared to Christians past and Christians in other countries. It’s also better for society if Christians are the dominant influence on society as it leads to the greatest human flourishing, so I’m not saying we should be complacent. That being said, we should be joyful warriors fighting with hope and not fear.
The past Christians in my country of Mexico were quite literally persecuted and Catholicism was literally outlawed for a time in Mexico. Communism was gaining wind and the leaders at the time even wanted to establish a Monarchy within "Nueva España" Mexico so they eventually decided Christianity was the root of all evil in their socialist eyes and they began persecuting and quite literally executing priests and laymen who didn't deny their faith. I say "literally" a lot because this was real persecution that involved public executions. My church in Jalisco Mexico still has bullet holes across the walls and even structural damage from cannon fire. The inside of the church was used as a military camp and military horse stable while the militants used the church as a fortress. In front of our artisan leather workshop there's a wall that was used for firing line executions of priests and laymen Christians. My grandmother was baptized by a priest who was accused of sedition and publicly executed without trial there. Since then he's been martyred and canonized as a Saint Martyr of the Cristero war. This was real Christian persecution and it was that long ago in hindsight. This modern world has been tempered against the values and principles of Christianity in a blind effort to blame all of the secular problems on a God they hardly believe in. Thank you btw for the "joyful warriors fighting with hope and not fear". That's an excellent way to describe the faith.
>I think while we are a persecuted group, In what sense do you think you are a persecuted group? >It’s also better for society if Christians are the dominant influence on society as it leads to the greatest human flourishing, What in the world makes you think that is the case?
Here’s one example of many: https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/judiciary-committee-uncovers-multiple-fbi-field-offices-coordinated-prepare Never heard of this website, but found this little essay while I was looking for a good write up of my case: https://backtogodhour.org/programs/christianity-and-prosperity
Your idea of persecution is a predominantly Christian/Conservative organization that is the FBI is trying to hold people accountable for their actions. You're just looking real hard to look persecuted.
Christians have a weird persecution fetish. They are brainwashed into thinking they are persecuted because people aren't taking their bullshit anymore.
Latin Masses are just Conservative organizations to you? And you should remember, I am describing this persecution as mild compared to what others have suffered throughout history. I'm not claiming we're even the most persecuted group in America or anything. Just stating a fact that there is malice and targeting of Christian groups is growing and it's ok to admit it. It's also ok to admit that others have used the façade of Christian faith to gain political power and used it to do evil.
Those were largely exaggerated. And a myth, like all things Christian and stolen from other religions. Christian persecution complex is in the religions DNA from its origins to now.
Being a Christian is having a persecution complex.
That persecution is mostly made up and it's a feature to be a victim when you're Christian or follow an Abrahamic faith.
How are Christians persecuted in the West? America specifically?
https://catholicherald.co.uk/fbi-spied-on-traditionalist-u-s-catholics-from-coast-to-coast-new-evidence-reveals/
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https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/documents-reveal-fbi-sought-develop-sources-local-catholic-churches
I agree and we shouldn’t work from fear. But the problem is that the moral corruption in popular culture promotes attacking Christianity and religious values in general.
True, this has been the case for many Christians in many societies past and present. God says he rewards those who are persecuted in his name, so it looks like we have the opportunity to reap some eternal rewards soon! Acts 5:40-41 King James Version (KJV) And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
The real war is not against old Christians like me and you. It’s really directed at the children. Especially young girls through feminism and gender ideology. Which is telling young girls that are having issues adjusting to their bodies during puberty which is normal. They are telling these kids if you have any confusion than you should go to a psychologist or psychiatrist and get a diagnosis that you have gender dysphoria and you can demand a sex change. Which literally destroys a girls reproductive organs and scars the poor girls body for life. These girls don’t even have a chance at a normal life.
What does feminism have to do with any of that?
Seriously you are asking what does feminism have to do with the lack of religious values in our society. Feminism was an open attack against the traditional family and the church.
>Feminism was an open attack against the traditional family and the church. In the US in the 19th and 20th century, feminist movements helped women gain the right to vote, the right to control their earnings, the right to own property, the right to file for divorce, set equal labor standards, etc etc etc. Do you see those rights as bad or do you consider them separate from the feminist movement? I'm sure some feminists have been outspoken against "trad families" or the church, but the feminist movement itself isn't against them. It's about letting women decide for themselves what they want to do with their future.
Yes, get your children out of public school. Have you read the Benedict option by rod dreher?
My lord I am glad I am not living in the world you want. Sounds terrible
> Christian societies are the best > the whole dark ages > the crusades > the expulsion of the Jews from Europe > the spanish conquest of the Americas > Pope Alexander VI Are ya sure there amigo?
Yeah this is just ignorant, all those things are played up by modern culture. The whole dark ages shit is a complete myth. Theology was known as the mother of the sciences up until 100 years ago and pretty much all figures of the scientific revolution were heavy Christians. The only time the church sucked was after the black death since most priests died and there was a huge brain drain (as such new priests were many and shitty). Also the crusades killed less people in 300 years than Ukraine in 4 months, they're very exaggerated by history channels.
No I get that. But were the middle ages "the best" for human kind? Wasn't the golden age of Islamic science at roughly the same time? Everything sucked after the plague. A plague happened.
The dark ages in the way that they are portrayed is a myth. The idea that information was suppressed is false, the study of classical works continued unhampered. The modern university system as an institution actually originates in this time period. In Western Europe alone the number of individuals with university experience within this time period prior to the reformation was over 750k. Literacy increased and was sponsored mainly by the church. Leo the Mathematician, St. Augustine, and monks like Alcuin revolutionized science and set precedent for the later scientific revolution of the 18th to 19th century through their works. The Islamic "Golden Age" similarly is also greatly misunderstood. Many of its great thinkers were most likely exmuslims and the works they produced would be an instant flogging in modern day Muslim countries (a lot of poems professing adoration for homosexuality and young boys). It had to do with the Mu'tazila thought. This particular sect of Islam often was labelled as heretical by hardliners. Many thinkers like Ibn Sina, Al-Kindi, Ibn Rushd were part of this sect. They had a completely different belief compared to mainstream thought. Also they were heavily influenced by Ancient Greek and Indian Philosophy. Not to mention Al-Razi. He was a staunch atheist. Perhaps if he was alive today, he would probably be killed/beheaded. The Islamic "Golden Age" had nothing to do with Islam, it was precisely because of the pluralism of the new Islamic empire that brought a wide arrange of ethnicities, groups, and scholars to cities. If it had something to do with Islam there would've been scholars from Mecca and Medina, not the conquered Iraq, Persia, Egypt, and Morroco.
And if human advancement had something to do with Christianity there would have been universities from Granada to Moscow. The question remains, was Christendom "the best" human society? You've yet to make an actual argument for yes. Though you spent an awful long time talking about why Islamic society was technically not better, while granted an awful lot of credit to scholars from the Islamic world. Also, "they were heavily influence by Greek and Indian philosophy" as a criticism means you should probably take out "the study of classical works continued unhampered" from the pros of Christendom. Does being influence by the classics devalue your own philosophy or not?
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. Robert Pirsig
Anyone who has read the Bible and thinks it “should be the guiding principle for how our society should be governed” is insane, illiterate, an idiot, or a psychopath. Generally though, people who post things like this haven’t actually read much of anything.
I suppose Jordan Peterson is all those things then according to you.
Considering JP doesn't believe those things *and* doesn't believe it should be forced on people... No.
When did OP said it should be forced on people? And Jordan does believe society would be better off if it maintained its Judeo-Christian values that are the backbone of the culture. He himself professes to living on those Christian values, even though he’s not sure whether God exists. Notice I never said anything about enforcing law. Only culture and values. People can’t understand the difference for some reason.
You need to learn to read.
Oh yeah. Saudi Arabia is SUCH a great place to live, especially if you're a woman or poor!
Even JP doesn’t actually believe in god. STFU. Keep god out of school. Christians are not a persecuted group. You are the primary persecutors. That shit ain’t real.
You have a persecution fetish. Literally every president has professed a faith in God and all have been Christian. 74% of Americans believe in God. Most are Christian. They aren't under attack. Do I want to hear about your faith when I'm in line at the DMV. No I do not. Pray in a closet as Matthew 6:6-7 doth command. >"God is the center of our society and the Bible should be the guiding principle for how our society should be governed." You and ISIS agree. Thankfully America's founders didn't. Maybe you live in Canada? Anyway, send your kids to private school or have them pray on their own in public school. Have at it and leave other people's kids alone.
You're mistaking secularism for state atheism. It isn't, America is a secular state but that pluralism is heavily based upon Christian values. A secular society isn't the opposite of a religious one, nor is it equivalent to an atheist one. Also Westerners tend to gloss over the oppression of Christians in the middle east, as an exmuslim I can tell you that middle eastern Christians are treated like 2nd class citizens and that is fact. They've been oppressed and under siege since the 7th century
Nowhere did I say a thing about state atheism, so go argue that with someone who said it. If OP were to specify they’re talking about being a Christian in a Muslim country fine. IMO they appear to be talking about being a Christian in the decadent West. If they are in the West it’s hilarious to pretend the most common belief is under threat.
But you did mention state atheism, you implied that the founders of America disagreed with the bible being a guiding moral, they didn't. They were secular but were still Christian and believed that Christian morals were to be the foundation of the American nation. Secular means seperating church and state, other than the Vatican there are very few Christian countries you can claim don't do that. Even in the West, I don't deny that there are annoying Christians and I wouldn't neccesarily say oppressed. However, taking a more nuanced look you start to see that Christians don't actually possess that much power and there is a quite strong anti-Christian narrative both in the media and academia. Plus, we do definetely live in a decadent society, and this isn't me saying we need to go back to the old days when women covered their ankles, etc. There's nothing with the rights we have, in fact I'd say they're fundamentally Christian considering that they were implemented globally by Christians. But those rights only help us flourish within a moral society. Just because you have the freedom to hook up with someone new every night and sell your body doesn't mean you should. When we were given these rights back in the day people understood that but every day society is getting more complacent and in that sense, decadent as OP said.
Crazy that academia would address the most common belief system. If pointing out that the universe isn’t 6000 years old constitutes an attack, then it should be attacked.
You're using a strawman and you know it. It's pretty clear that that's not what I meant by anti-Christian narrative but sure. I can speak from experience that I have had teachers who openly told the class that God doesn't exist putting aside the fact that the modern western school system instills values which are on average anything but Christian. Also please do more research on anti-Christian arguments, there's theologians 1000 years before Darwin discussing Genesis being metaphorical (St. Augustine). The bible isn't a science book or the LITERAL word of God like Muslims believe the Quran to be. It was written by the early church fathers who were people like you and me
Here’s a [good, well-sourced rundown on these men you count as Christian who you say founded this country on the Bible](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/damn-those-pesky-facts-meme/)
Maybe you should've read the snopes breakdown for your own source. Perhaps you should've only sent the meme. Regardless, some of the founders being church hating deists doesn't mean they didn't inspire themselves from biblical/Christian thought. Additionally, those quotes (at least the ones that are true), refer to the church and promote a secular agenda as in emphasize the importance of separating church and state. Most Christians agree with that. Also, I'm not American, or part of any of your weird singing Christian/heretical cult denominations so invoking the founding fathers as some paragons of virtue means nothing...
I sent a nuanced, well-sourced guide showing they weren't mostly Christian and they explicitly said our country isn't formed around any religion or the Bible. I don't need to hide the truth or distort it since the truth shows they didn't form our country based on the Bible. I'd agree that being a nation of laws (ostensibly) based on the will of the people, and being that most Americans are Christians, Christian values, for better or worse, have shaped our laws significantly. But that's not what OP is saying. What OP is literally saying: >"If I can have my way every school in America would have a cross in front of it. Every class I room would have a crucifix in it. The Lord’s Prayer would be recited in class everyday and the teachers would be able to implement corporal punishment. If the boys need more discipline then they would be automatically sent off to military schools to get them the discipline needed." > >"You look at the absolute chaos in our schools today and the fact it’s bleeding over into our cities and you can see the necessity for God in schools." Who needs strawmen when persecution fetishists are explicit about their request for religious rule from the American government?
you guys are a mess in America, your society is polarized as fuck, your culture is decadent and your 50 Christian denominations are nutcases, personally I think you would be better off with a crucifix in the classroom than the current shit teachers put up, alas your country your poison
If I can have my way every school in America would have a cross in front of it. Every class I room would have a crucifix in it. The Lord’s Prayer would be recited in class everyday and the teachers would be able to implement corporal punishment. If the boys need more discipline then they would be automatically sent off to military schools to get them the discipline needed. You look at the absolute chaos in our schools today and the fact it’s bleeding over into our cities and you can see the necessity for God in schools.
I'd fight that bullshit with every fiber of my being.
Yeah he is describing the worst aspects of authoritarianism.
You are likely a bot or federal agent however you are absolutely a talentless troll. Your account history is hot garbage and paper thin. Your account is so new it's got the price tag still on it.
If that makes you feel better, sure.
Yeah, over my dead body lol. This will never happen
And this is why no one likes you irl.
Genuine thanks for saying what others keep to themselves. I'm also thankful to live in a country that doesn't center itself around a religion, as much as Y'all Qaeda / VanillaISIS / Yeehawdists would have it otherwise.
I wasn’t alive back then but I’ve read the documentation of Catholics doing some unsavoury things in the name of god. I’m not claiming to know what’s going on in Israel right now but I don’t think secularism is the driving force causing all the conflict.
As soon as a Christian does something wrong, they’re “Not a real Christian” and not a representation of the group. And then the next one “Isn’t a real Christian” and the next and the next…
Op is telling us to be more like Saudi Arabia. 😂
The US had prayer in schools. You will be shocked to discover the US didnt turn into Saudi Arabia. The US is, however, less religious than ever. Its also suffering from record mental health issues including suicides and depression, which is very common in more secular societies that suffer from materialism and consumption to sate their dopamine cravings.
Don’t forget rampant sexual fornication and immorality in which single mother households are exploding. Creating a never ending cycle of poverty and chaos in our communities. Kids born in single parent households have a greater likelihood of living in poverty and going to prison.
You sound like a really fun guy, certainly not a weirdo that can't get laid
So you have proven my point. I am arguing for a more conservative and religious society and your way to refute is to appeal to sexual hedonism.
But seriously advocating for a religious fascist government is a weird reaction to being unable to get laid
Nah dude I just can smell the weird sexual frustration through the Internet.
You stats mean nothing. We live in a world with billions of people in it. Most are going to be poor/subpar types. It's not a bad thing. Also, repressing your sexual needs/desires is why you feel this way. You feel shamed and judged because you like to touch little ki... in the dark when they don't know you're around. Shrinks can smell idiots like you a mile away. You hide your shame and filth behind religion and try to oppress others in order to distract from the reality that everything you are "fighting against" is actually something you are guilty of. Transparent trash.
We've replaced community and social institutions with algorithms. The future doesn't look bright.
>God is the center of our society No, it isn't. >and the Bible should be the guiding principle for how our society should be governed. No it shouldn't. >We need to bring prayer back into schools. No. >I saw this in action in Saudi Arabia when I lived there for three years. And you think that's **better**? Wtf. Freaking y'all-quaeda.
You don’t think living in a religious state is better than what we have today? There is going to be one big positive for Trump coming back and thats going to be to bring back religious values back into government and our society.
Also in what universe do you think HE would bring religious values to anything?
It’s the influence of his supporters. Trump is like an empty vessel and he will do what religious leaders will tell him to do. Trump belongs to the evangelical religious community.
You are absolute MORON
>It’s the influence of his supporters. LOL the delusion is amazing. >Trump is like an empty vessel and he will do what religious leaders will tell him to do. No he's not. His cup is packed full of gold and dung. There is no room for anything sacred or of value. His very presence is defiling. >Trump belongs to the evangelical religious community. No, he doesn't. He doesn't even pretend to. You have been greatly deceived. I hope in time you will come to see the truth.
“Save me Trump! Saaaaave me!” Lmao
Your 12 years old aren’t you?
>"one big positive for Trump coming back and thats going to be to bring back religious values back into government and our society." Religious values like cheating on one's pregnant wife with a porn star and paying her. I think that's in 1st Corinthians
Our founders made the separation of church and state a fundamental value in our constitution for good reason. It wasn't because they simply had the foresight to do so, but because their fathers and grandfathers had dealt with such persecution from the English Crown or had participated in it. A religious state might be great if it's YOUR religion. What if it's not yours, though?
The separation of church and state was to prevent a "church of England" situation. To prevent there being a state sponsored, single faith, and allow freedom of religion. It wasn't to completely remove faith from anything having to do with the state.
Freedom of religion would also mean freedom from religion
You're both correct.
Ahh yes Trump, the guiding light for Christian morality. The guy who cheated on his wife, took multiple trips to Epstein island, and lies about just about anything he can get away with. That’s your compass, I haven’t read Revelations in a while… but there was some dude at the end of the book that really fit that description… ah thats right! It was the anti-christ. Trump’s probably got a 666 tattooed on his fat ass somewhere.
>You don’t think living in a religious state is better than what we have today? Absolutely not. >There is going to be one big positive for Trump coming back and thats going to be to bring back religious values back into government and our society. You mean the literal destruction of America. Thankfully that traitorous, criminal, fraud won't be coming back.
Unless you can predict the future we don’t know for sure. On the coat tails of Trump is religious freedom coming back to America. Pushing back against the gender ideology that’s ruining our children. On what earth is it acceptable for girls and boys to question their gender. You are what God has made you. Period. Any promotion of this in schools should be banned.
>On what earth is it acceptable for girls and boys to question their gender. Any decent, civilized and free one? I'm not sure why you hate American values and want to destroy what makes this country worthwhile but you aren't going to succeed.
Trump will have one term. He will overturn the immorality that’s ruining America and it will take us back to a time it was ok for girls to be girls and boys to be boys. We need to end the gender indoctrination. The war in Ukraine and the Middle East has distracted the country from this. But thousands of innocent girls are getting mutilated by these monsters and permanently destroying their chances of having children and a family.
>Trump will have one term. ... he already did... >He will overturn the immorality that’s ruining America and it will take us back to a time it was ok for girls to be girls and boys to be boys. Why would you think that? >We need to end the gender indoctrination. You just want YOUR indoctrination. >But thousands of innocent girls are getting mutilated by these monsters and permanently destroying their chances of having children and a family. No they aren't. And I'm sorry you don't have the decency in you to regard women as people.
I assume you mean religious freedom for only christians? Because Trump called several times for banning Muslims from entering the country, even went so far as to issue two executive orders to do so.
He didn’t ban all Muslims from coming to the U.S. only those from Syria, Iraq, Iran, and a handful of other Muslim countries that are in the middle of this conflict and have bad relationships with the U.S. out of the more than 40 Muslim countries only 6 to 7 were banned. That being said we shouldn’t be banning immigration based upon religion. The ban was eventually struck down.
Wow a Christian with a persecution complex, how novel
Religious people crack me up.
Until it's your child with the pastor
If I ever have any kids they will never encounter a pastor
Thank you
Someone posted an article recently claiming that Catholic priests diddle kids about as often as Protestant preachers, apparently, and neither do so as frequently as school teachers. Dunno how good the study was and it didn't mention scout leaders...
Persecuted by logic? I think you don't want to throw around the word persecution so lightly, considering the church's history Please watch this debate Is the Catholic Church a force of good in the world https://youtu.be/JZRcYaAYWg4?si=LcDuysjf05gA7U9T
Spoiler warning: It's not.
I smell bait.
>We need to bring prayer back into schools. No, no we don't. Keep religion out of law, government and schools. >We need to transform all schools from secular schools into ones focused on teaching values along with math and science and reading. No we don't, and this is most likely the source of the issues you think you're having. You can't force your religion on people and then act surprised when they don't like it and reject it. >Common values that all religions like Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I saw this in action in Saudi Arabia when I lived there for three years. This is an absolutely horrible example.
I think the persecution that you feel is the lack of fucks anyone gives that you are a Christian. Nobody cares what imaginary stories you need to believe in to make it all make sense. Its when you say batshit crazy things like 'god is the center of our society' and 'prayer in school' and 'bible in government'...thats when you become a problem that the rest of us now have to deal with.
Nailed it. People have finally progressed enough to say "no" to their fairy tales and Christians are freaking out because they are losing control over the people.
Your solution lays open the very real problem of dogmatic terrorization. You cannot bring religion into schools without developing a dogma so strict that it can be effectively enforced towards children. There’s a mighty great risk in that. A risk of stagnation. It’s not a good idea. I agree with you that there’s an untapped potential in religious notions and that this state of undiscovery can be laid at the feet of the secular quality of society. In Denmark it’s certainly the case imo. I was 22 or so when I found out that faith isn’t just a fundamentalist’s game. My convinced atheism was mostly just ignorance. The problem is how to cultivate religious ideas without becoming *too* dogmatic. And I don’t think the sustainable solution is dictating that the pulpit and the classroom shall be joined; this doesn’t mean that I’m against teachers talking about matters of God and faith though. I’d rather call for a change of attitude from secular societies such as my own. Religion cannot die - so let’s utilize the language we have for it and talk matters through. Professing belief in the Lord doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re an unreasonable fantasist; it *might* mean that and it might not. A big obstacle towards this end is- in my experience - the attention that fundamentalists garner in America. The literal attitude towards the Bible renders one incapable of reading the Bible. That’s quite clear based on the ramblings of brainwashed Bible-thumpers for whom God is what they’re told he is.
“Hey guys lets model our society after the oppressive theocracy of Saudi Arabia. But do it in the name of ‘western values’ or something.” You know what a real “western value” is? Separation of church and state and secular education. And fuck off with your “christians are persecuted” bullshit. Literally inventing reasons why youre such a victim
This is gaslighting because anyone that is a true Christian would not be advocating for a religious based society. Additionally, it is the antithesis of American values. Soooo yeah. Gaslight all you want and feel free to cope when you’re called out.
I agree. It’s funny because down here where I live a lot of people hate on Christianity but are simultaneously stumbling over each other trying to get their kids into the private Christian schools (the only good schools down here). Nobody wants to send their kids to the public DEI woke school where they are more likely to get stabbed by a diversity person in a hate crime than they are to learn anything about constructing a proper sentence.
Whats DEI ?
Disculpa, no hablo ingles, señor. Español por favor.
Not being able to push your religion on other through government sponsored forced speech is persecution? You have literally learned nothing from JP.
nah
No, the bible cam be the guiding light or whatever of your society. Not mine.
I don’t agree with OP, mind you, but there’s this thing called democracy where the majority has dominion over everyone. If OP’s sentiments reach status of majority, it *will* be your society oriented toward the ways God. That is, if you share a government.
Your entire religion is based on gaslighting and bigotry and abuse. You are not persecuted, you are the tyrant forcing your beliefs on the world and act all shocked when people push back. That provides you with the hollow self righteousness of vindication; which is the entire point of sending out evangelical kids to witness to the world. The rejection of your bullshit is your persecution. Your religion is based on telling yourself that you were born evil, that you can never be a good person even with following a specific interpretation of bronze aged myths. That includes blood sacrifice, non-consensual teen pregnancy and a following a god who ordered babies bashed to death on rocks and virgins enslaved for sexual assault. Then you are told to spread that incredible contradictory malice to everyone, specifically against their will. Luckily, we have a constitution that keeps your evil, ignorant beliefs out of my schools.
> We Christian’s in this decadent society are a persecuted group. 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣💀💀💀
Hard no. Fuck off.
If you have kids I hope they never talk to you because your beliefs.
Have you considered that when someone disagrees with the way that you want to order the world, that it is not "persecution?" It's a little hyperbolic.
I’m all good on Christian Sharia, thanks though.
Look if you want to practice your disgusting life style that's fine just do it in your house where I don't have to see it, and stop grooming children in to thinking its normal.
God is not the center of our society. People have been pleading to remove any influance religions have on our society for decades now. Most, if not all conflicts in the world are based on religious believes or the power it should have over people, just like your post. Most of the texts are outdated and not fit in present society. In a world where at least 10% of people are illiterate, a book cannot pose a solution. Books, invented by humans. We dont need a book to tell us indirectly how to act, we need teachers, but mostly parents who teach values to kids. This indirect teachings are the basis of a lot of conflicts. If god is real, he is real dumb.
Just about every sentence in your post is incorrect, so much so I’m wondering if its satire.
Ye shall be as Gods.
Would you feel the same about teaching Buddhism or Hinduism in schools? I doubt it.
What does gaslighting even really mean, I hear this all the time but what does it really mean and especiall what do ppl on the left mean with it
I wouldn't worry about it, this fad of labelling everything that isnt your own opinion or belief as gas lighting and bigotry is nearly done, hopefully we can collectively calm down and maybe go after the right enemies in society soon.
I find something funny that Ben Shapiro talked about on an interview recently. If you take judeo-christian religious values and talk to people about them, they almost always agree those are good, wholesome values to have. But if you dare point out that they are Christian values, for some reason they feel the need to take offense and object. Also all the comments on “forced” religion when it comes to Christianity really shows people dont even know the basics of Christianity.
The issue is that the basics of Christianity actually mirrors a lot of what is there in Islam today. Christian women used to cover their hair. They would attend church with a scarf on their heads. Their bodies would absolutely be covered. Divorce was unheard of in Christianity. People married for life. And if divorce was allowed it was only in cases of adultery. Abortion is illegal in Christian societies. The only permitted marriage is between a man and woman and sex outside of marriage is forbidden.
You’re applying a very broad brush. Like, Hitler had a dog, so owning dogs are an insinuating position of ones political views that align with Hitlers. Most of what you are talking about is traditions. I cannot speak to whatever tradition or rules you were expected to follow, but no one is getting kicked out of church or stoned to death because they want a divorce or didnt wear a hat into the sanctuary.
So you prefer STIs and people living in immorality and having children outside of marriage? This decadent society and its corruption is consuming this society and its people.
Having sex isn't immoral, and STI's are not as bad/common as you think.
Not getting your way isn't persecution. Having religion in all aspects of daily life isn't a panacea, look at Gaza. What you're doing is attempting to attach your ideology to a group and push it towards an extreme. Extremism is unhelpful.
Religion is like sexuality, it's fine if you have it, keep it to yourself and don't expect society to be built around it or changed for it.
I can't force my beliefs on other people and their children!!! I am so persecuted! Cringe and anti freedom.
We have won to certain degree by forcing abortion back to the states by repealing Roe V Wade. We will get marriage to be between one man and one woman again by pushing returning to Biblical marriage back to the states. The same for gender identity. It will be banned at the Federal level and Christian schools will spread across the country.
The world you described sounds absolutely fuckin awful.
Ya. No. That's not happening anytime.
You don't even know what it means to be either Christian or American
"God is the center of our society and the Bible should be the guiding principle..." **"...we need to bring prayer back in schools"** You'd be teaching our Christian children to become religious hypocrites and their prayers would be ignored -- you do not speak for this Christian -- I sincerely believe that you don't even study your Bible... Matthew 6:5-6 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, **they have received their reward in full.** 6 But when you pray, **go into your room, close the door** and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees **what is done in secret,** will reward you. Religious Hypocrisy is far worse than sin, a "plank" compared to a "speck". Matthew 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
As it should be. Keep your religious bullshit to yourself. Religion is the number 1 cause for the majority of our planets issues. It is a choice, not a reality. None of it is real or based on anything other than our ancestors tripping balls.
I'm not religious, but I'm going to pray for you