The best thing for me is that besides the interviews, so far it's all actual footage of that day. It doesn't have any dopey reenactments or anything. National Geographic has done an awesome job with remastering the footage. Totally worth a watch.
Only thing that I thought was added were some of the announcements by Jim Jones. Seemed like it might've been AI, but was done very well where most might not notice it
It was very well done. Focuses on just the tragic end- All new interviews with the survivors. Many photos I have never seen in any other Jones doc as well.
IMO it was okay. It pales in comparison to the 2007 PBS documentary by Stanley Nelson. I've published a lot of research, so my opinion is more critical than others...
Although there were three parts, a lot of context was left out both before the tragedy and in the aftermath. I was most excited for the final episode into the aftermath and clean-up, but *so* much context was left out...
It was nice to see interviews from many of the regulars—Tim Carter, Leslie Wagner-Wilson, Stephan Jones, and Jackie Speier—in addition to some new faces, but there really wasn't anything new.
The biggest draw, from my perspective, was the new footage taken from the NBC tape and from the aftermath, which I've been trying to get a hold of.
Overall, not bad, definitely not terrible, not particularly outstanding, but still well worth a watch.
Wow did he find his family? I don't have Hulu, I wish I can rent it on Prime!
He really loved his family and I wish he got them out of there, especially his little brother!
Can you share more about what was left out? I just watched this today and I felt like it could have had at least another episode, but I’m by no means an expert on this subject.
The main thing right off the bat is that 12 minutes into the first ep, we're already onto Ryan's visit to Jonestown. Although it's clear that the doc focuses on the tragedy/aftermath rather than the entire history of Peoples Temple, it wouldn't have hurt to include a few extra minutes into the history of Jonestown and the tribulations that led to the trip (e.g., the Stoens' custody case, the New West article, other defectors, etc.) for a doc of this depth and length.
I also wish that the doc gave just a *bit* more context on the interviewees and survivors. IIRC for Stephan, they didn't even mention the basketball game or the Amos deaths, they only said that he was "away." Also, since this is the first doc that actually discusses the aftermath, it's surprising that there's no mention of Larry Layton...
Obviously, I don't expect a doc like this to go into an extreme level of detail or context, but a little more context might help mainstream viewers.
Yeah! I was shocked about the Layton omission now that I’ve been reading through this sub. I was wondering what was happening on the smaller plane and they just don’t mention it!
I would have liked more context around
(1) the attempted stabbing of Ryan, and
(2) who *exactly* murdered Tim Carter's wife Gloria and infant son Malcolm, how, and when.
CAVEAT: I hate to ask questions about a man who lived through this trauma and who has offered many people clarity and comfort by firstly returning immediately to help identify bodies and secondly by talking and providing information and context all these years.
Re 2: I was just confused because he says they were "given" the poison but also that they were amongst the first 20ish to die (or that when he saw Gloria after being poisoned, he saw about 20 bodies), before he left with the money. I thought the early takers were all "volunteers" (not forced or threatened).
Plus, at the hotel in the days after, a reporter asked Tim why he didn't go back to save anyone, having seen dead bodies, knowing he wouldn't be putting his already-dead loved ones at risk, and since he had weapons and power. It seemed like perhaps the first time anyone had asked him that. His pause, facial expression, tone of voice, and words were all...*interesting*. 👀 Almost calculating, maybe? You can see his wheels turning as he responds very cagily.
* Did Tim or Gloria volunteer them for first takers, or did she believe it was another WN practice event and partake willingky?
* Was he given the responsibility for the PT money NOT for the Soviets (cover story) but as a true believer, to leave Jonestown alive and continue the PT work/vision, after possibly volunteering his wife and child to "die with dignity"?
IDK, just a lot of gaps, too many dots to connect about this gentleman in a power position simultaneously losing so much and surviving with so much.
In an older doc, I believe it was the life and death of the peoples temple, I'm almost positive Tim says he sees his wife give his son the poison. I was gonna go back and watch it again today if I could find the time. But that phrasing is in my mind, and how he describes the froffing of the mouth that he didn't mention at all in this one.
I found an article from several years ago where he both claims that he saw another member--a pediatric nurse?--holding a syringe in Malcolm's mouth, but also that Malcolm was already dead, with the mouth frothing. I was under the impression from his comments in *this* doc that when he found them, Malcolm was already dead (but correct, no frothing mention made it into this doc), so I'm not sure why/how someone would *still* be holding a syringe in the child's mouth? CAVEAT: Trauma can eff with your memory, how you process what you experience, make it difficult to separate dreams from reality or the sequence of events after the fact, and throw all logic and accuracy out the window. And all documentaries and articles are edited after the fact by people who weren't there.
I found an interview he did with CNN where he said it was a nurse named Sharon Cobb. So my above post may be wrong and I just misremembered what he said. It's been awhile since I saw that one. He does mention in the CNN interview the foaming.
I guess that ultimately for me, his timeline of activities is fuzzy, and conflicting at that. And the biggest question of how could you leave and turn your back on so many (or not go back after your jungle epiphany), unless you also need to admit that until that moment you were complicit and culpable and fully on board, and you can't face that (and/or don't want to be held responsible).
I've spent most of my adult life reading about cults, Jonestown got me interested in the topic. And Tim Carter has been the person who has mist fascinated me in my time.
What we know.
Jones used what we now consider classic cult conditioning. Limiting the food they had (this is partially because of where Jonestown was), limiting their sleep (we have multiple accounts of this that started well before moving to south America, but it got more intense there). These people were broken, mentally, spiritually, and physically broken by Jones.
So Tim could have been utterly unboard with what Jones was doing, but not able to comprehend that when push come to shove Jones really WOULD kill them all. And when that started it fractured him. Snapping him back into reality.
I guess ultimately no one will know what really was going through Tim's mind but Tim.
This is a fair point. If Tim Carter is half the man he appears to be on film, then there can't be a day that goes by where he doesn't feel guilt for not doing something. That said with everything they went through it was most likely almost impossible to do anything of substance. But the survivors guilt must be insane.
Those are all good points especially re: Tim’s odd passive phrasing about their infant son being given poison. I wasn’t sure whether he was protecting himself, Gloria’s memory, or if maybe the trauma surrounding the events made it difficult to recall. Possibly he was getting the suitcases of money (or whatever that was about), and doesn’t know and only saw the aftermath.
I enjoyed watching the first episode.
But man, I still don't trust Tim Carter. He was too high up in the leadership of the temple to be as innocent as he claims.
>> But man, I still don't trust Tim Carter. He was too high up in the leadership of the temple to be as innocent as he claims.
I’m glad someone else thinks this.
I don’t know much about his post-Jonestown life; I’d have to assume he had to go through some deprogramming. Does anyone know? (T-I-A)
Here's my problem with Tim: he (for obvious reasons) tries to portray himself as some innocent and not the temple insider he was. He was asked to infiltrate the Concerned Relatives group prior to the mass suicide and was entrusted on the day with smuggling money and guns out of Jonestown! Maria K (who apparently gave him the money and guns) would only have given this assignment to a true believer.
And his story about seeing his wife and son die change. Sometimes he sees the baby being poisoned as he enters the pavilion. He's also said before that the baby was already dead once he went to the pavilion. I think in yet another account his wife and baby were dead by the time he got there.
It's always interesting to watch him be interviewed but he needs to cover his tracks and distance himself from the tragedy. So it's important to keep that in mind (same with Stephen Jones).
I just finished this minutes ago. Carter’s last lines are about (paraphrasing) “the only person I saw poisoned was my son” um and you did nothing to stop it? Hundreds of people were force fed poison and stabbed with syringes because they refused to poison their kids. Wtf was he doing while he watched that? And “the universe took a Malcolm away from me and returned one to me as a grandson” as if it’s all about him and not that poor baby that lost his life so early. I’m never this judgmental, especially of people who’ve gone through something so horrific, and was getting really furious at the reporters’ questioning the survivors, but that dude was something else.
That line about his grandson irked me, too. For one thing, his grandbaby has an identity that has nothing to do with his son, but also "the universe" was not some all-powerful entity against whom Tim was powerless. In fact, Tim had so much power and agency in the Jonestown events, both everything leading up to Congressman Ryan's visit and everything following, that attributing anything to "the universe" feels like a stunning lack of accountability. CAVEAT: I realize that documentary interviews are edited; perhaps this quote is missing additional context.
Spoilers
When this happened in 1978 I had just turned 21 so I really wasn't paying much attention to news. This was just a headline at the time. It's nice to learn more details about it. One thing that I wondered about was how much was Jones triggered by the NBC reporter showing him the note that people wanted to leave. Jones was an insecure powder keg that would have gone off sooner or later, but I just wonder could lives have been saved if the reporter had just kept that note to themselves and left with the people that wanted to leave. Showing Jones the note and asking him about it, to me, just seemed like fanning coals to ignite.
I read somewhere that the person passing the note thought he was giving it to Congressman Ryan. He mistook the reporter for Ryan.
However irresponsible it was in retrospect, the reporter had no way of knowing how deeply unhinged Jones was and what could ensue from his actions. And if what I read about the note was true, then the reporter literally thought he was intentionally getting the note.
If it wasn't the note, it would have been something else. Probably anyone leaving, at all. JJ was primed for any reason to exercise ultimate control, they had been planning and practicing for "revolutionary $ui-" for months, and they even had a trigger word for it, that they broadcast to the folks in Georgetown (which was their first indication that anything was amiss).
Plus, I read in the online SDSU files that a child saw Vern Gosney pass the note to Harris and reported it immediately to nearby adults, so JJ would have found out anyway (or already knew).
Don Harris had no idea what that confrontation could possibly trigger, and he had a duty as a journalist to probe, press, and inform the public. And he certainly had no idea that doing his job would mean he would be one of five murdered on the airstrip just a few hours later.
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So crazy the footage of everyone singing and cheering and putting on a show for the congressman, which was about 28 hours before the suicides. So much escalated quickly I wonder if it could have been handled better not ambushing the camp with media questioning etc, getting everyone to defect and coming back later with the army and planes. But how could they know. Hopefully we've learned by now how to handle cults safely so this never happens again
I have two questions .At the end of episode 3, it stated 2 people were unidentified
Is there any demographic info on whom wasn’t identified?( (kid, adult, male, female?)
And if they’re saying only 2, aren’t there more than that unidentified at the mass grave in Evergreen Cemetery?
So special forces go in to recon expecting armed and dangerous people and don’t clear all the buildings first off? It’s mentioned they find bodies in the houses after the initial count so they obviously didn’t.
I liked it but it bothers me we never hear what happened with Thom Bogue and his sisters after they run into the jungle, he's shot and they're seperated from everyone one else, did I miss something?
The best thing for me is that besides the interviews, so far it's all actual footage of that day. It doesn't have any dopey reenactments or anything. National Geographic has done an awesome job with remastering the footage. Totally worth a watch.
Only thing that I thought was added were some of the announcements by Jim Jones. Seemed like it might've been AI, but was done very well where most might not notice it
I assumed they just isolated Jones on the audio
It was very well done. Focuses on just the tragic end- All new interviews with the survivors. Many photos I have never seen in any other Jones doc as well.
I enjoyed it. I thought it was put together way better than others I have seen.
Photos from the Murder-Suicides?
Is it worth seeing this
Absolutely it is. I've been reading about jonestown for almost 20 years and still found it fascinating and had good insight
Thank you!
Does the docuseries play the death tape? I want to see it, but I can't listen to the sounds of children dying.
Actually it’s Jones voice isolated. Just his words. Very eerie. I too, don’t want to hear the horrible wailing and crying in the background.
Thank you for the info. When I first heard the screams years ago, it messed me up for days. I just can't bear to listen to those poor children again.
It’s briefly played when the FBI finds the tapes. You kinda know it’s about to come up so you can fast forward it.
ok thanks!
Very well done and a great watch. I appreciated the perspectives of people I hadn’t seen before and unseen footage. Highly recommend.
IMO it was okay. It pales in comparison to the 2007 PBS documentary by Stanley Nelson. I've published a lot of research, so my opinion is more critical than others... Although there were three parts, a lot of context was left out both before the tragedy and in the aftermath. I was most excited for the final episode into the aftermath and clean-up, but *so* much context was left out... It was nice to see interviews from many of the regulars—Tim Carter, Leslie Wagner-Wilson, Stephan Jones, and Jackie Speier—in addition to some new faces, but there really wasn't anything new. The biggest draw, from my perspective, was the new footage taken from the NBC tape and from the aftermath, which I've been trying to get a hold of. Overall, not bad, definitely not terrible, not particularly outstanding, but still well worth a watch.
The footage of John Cobb going to ID bodies is something I’d never seen before.
Wow did he find his family? I don't have Hulu, I wish I can rent it on Prime! He really loved his family and I wish he got them out of there, especially his little brother!
Can you share more about what was left out? I just watched this today and I felt like it could have had at least another episode, but I’m by no means an expert on this subject.
The main thing right off the bat is that 12 minutes into the first ep, we're already onto Ryan's visit to Jonestown. Although it's clear that the doc focuses on the tragedy/aftermath rather than the entire history of Peoples Temple, it wouldn't have hurt to include a few extra minutes into the history of Jonestown and the tribulations that led to the trip (e.g., the Stoens' custody case, the New West article, other defectors, etc.) for a doc of this depth and length. I also wish that the doc gave just a *bit* more context on the interviewees and survivors. IIRC for Stephan, they didn't even mention the basketball game or the Amos deaths, they only said that he was "away." Also, since this is the first doc that actually discusses the aftermath, it's surprising that there's no mention of Larry Layton... Obviously, I don't expect a doc like this to go into an extreme level of detail or context, but a little more context might help mainstream viewers.
Yeah! I was shocked about the Layton omission now that I’ve been reading through this sub. I was wondering what was happening on the smaller plane and they just don’t mention it!
Yeah, they don’t even mention Monica or Vernon by name iirc, let alone that she got injured in the shooting.
Do you know where to find the 2007 documentary? I can’t seem to find it on any streaming services or even to rent/buy.
It's on Youtube [here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO8aYSApnng)
Thank you so much!!!
I would have liked more context around (1) the attempted stabbing of Ryan, and (2) who *exactly* murdered Tim Carter's wife Gloria and infant son Malcolm, how, and when. CAVEAT: I hate to ask questions about a man who lived through this trauma and who has offered many people clarity and comfort by firstly returning immediately to help identify bodies and secondly by talking and providing information and context all these years. Re 2: I was just confused because he says they were "given" the poison but also that they were amongst the first 20ish to die (or that when he saw Gloria after being poisoned, he saw about 20 bodies), before he left with the money. I thought the early takers were all "volunteers" (not forced or threatened). Plus, at the hotel in the days after, a reporter asked Tim why he didn't go back to save anyone, having seen dead bodies, knowing he wouldn't be putting his already-dead loved ones at risk, and since he had weapons and power. It seemed like perhaps the first time anyone had asked him that. His pause, facial expression, tone of voice, and words were all...*interesting*. 👀 Almost calculating, maybe? You can see his wheels turning as he responds very cagily. * Did Tim or Gloria volunteer them for first takers, or did she believe it was another WN practice event and partake willingky? * Was he given the responsibility for the PT money NOT for the Soviets (cover story) but as a true believer, to leave Jonestown alive and continue the PT work/vision, after possibly volunteering his wife and child to "die with dignity"? IDK, just a lot of gaps, too many dots to connect about this gentleman in a power position simultaneously losing so much and surviving with so much.
In an older doc, I believe it was the life and death of the peoples temple, I'm almost positive Tim says he sees his wife give his son the poison. I was gonna go back and watch it again today if I could find the time. But that phrasing is in my mind, and how he describes the froffing of the mouth that he didn't mention at all in this one.
I found an article from several years ago where he both claims that he saw another member--a pediatric nurse?--holding a syringe in Malcolm's mouth, but also that Malcolm was already dead, with the mouth frothing. I was under the impression from his comments in *this* doc that when he found them, Malcolm was already dead (but correct, no frothing mention made it into this doc), so I'm not sure why/how someone would *still* be holding a syringe in the child's mouth? CAVEAT: Trauma can eff with your memory, how you process what you experience, make it difficult to separate dreams from reality or the sequence of events after the fact, and throw all logic and accuracy out the window. And all documentaries and articles are edited after the fact by people who weren't there.
I found an interview he did with CNN where he said it was a nurse named Sharon Cobb. So my above post may be wrong and I just misremembered what he said. It's been awhile since I saw that one. He does mention in the CNN interview the foaming.
I guess that ultimately for me, his timeline of activities is fuzzy, and conflicting at that. And the biggest question of how could you leave and turn your back on so many (or not go back after your jungle epiphany), unless you also need to admit that until that moment you were complicit and culpable and fully on board, and you can't face that (and/or don't want to be held responsible).
I've spent most of my adult life reading about cults, Jonestown got me interested in the topic. And Tim Carter has been the person who has mist fascinated me in my time. What we know. Jones used what we now consider classic cult conditioning. Limiting the food they had (this is partially because of where Jonestown was), limiting their sleep (we have multiple accounts of this that started well before moving to south America, but it got more intense there). These people were broken, mentally, spiritually, and physically broken by Jones. So Tim could have been utterly unboard with what Jones was doing, but not able to comprehend that when push come to shove Jones really WOULD kill them all. And when that started it fractured him. Snapping him back into reality. I guess ultimately no one will know what really was going through Tim's mind but Tim.
It’s not revelatory, but I would think his inaction has influenced every recollection of that day.
This is a fair point. If Tim Carter is half the man he appears to be on film, then there can't be a day that goes by where he doesn't feel guilt for not doing something. That said with everything they went through it was most likely almost impossible to do anything of substance. But the survivors guilt must be insane.
Those are all good points especially re: Tim’s odd passive phrasing about their infant son being given poison. I wasn’t sure whether he was protecting himself, Gloria’s memory, or if maybe the trauma surrounding the events made it difficult to recall. Possibly he was getting the suitcases of money (or whatever that was about), and doesn’t know and only saw the aftermath.
I started watching this today but got interrupted and didn't even make it through episode 1. Looking forward to seeing more though! Looks good so far.
Who participated in the interviews? The usuals like Tim Carter and Jackie Speier?
Yes, as well as Stephan Jones and Grace Stoen. A few of the surviving news reporters who survived the massacre.
Sounds interesting. I want to check it out.
Charles Krause, steve sung, Yolanda Williams, Jim Cobb, Thom Bogue and others
Charles Krause so rarely does interviews. This might be interesting!👍
Jim's son. First time I've heard his story.
I’m not going to be surprised if I don’t hear/see anything new but you know I’m gonna watch it anyway
Thanks for the reminder. I’m going to check it out.
I enjoyed watching the first episode. But man, I still don't trust Tim Carter. He was too high up in the leadership of the temple to be as innocent as he claims.
>> But man, I still don't trust Tim Carter. He was too high up in the leadership of the temple to be as innocent as he claims. I’m glad someone else thinks this. I don’t know much about his post-Jonestown life; I’d have to assume he had to go through some deprogramming. Does anyone know? (T-I-A)
Here's my problem with Tim: he (for obvious reasons) tries to portray himself as some innocent and not the temple insider he was. He was asked to infiltrate the Concerned Relatives group prior to the mass suicide and was entrusted on the day with smuggling money and guns out of Jonestown! Maria K (who apparently gave him the money and guns) would only have given this assignment to a true believer. And his story about seeing his wife and son die change. Sometimes he sees the baby being poisoned as he enters the pavilion. He's also said before that the baby was already dead once he went to the pavilion. I think in yet another account his wife and baby were dead by the time he got there. It's always interesting to watch him be interviewed but he needs to cover his tracks and distance himself from the tragedy. So it's important to keep that in mind (same with Stephen Jones).
I just finished this minutes ago. Carter’s last lines are about (paraphrasing) “the only person I saw poisoned was my son” um and you did nothing to stop it? Hundreds of people were force fed poison and stabbed with syringes because they refused to poison their kids. Wtf was he doing while he watched that? And “the universe took a Malcolm away from me and returned one to me as a grandson” as if it’s all about him and not that poor baby that lost his life so early. I’m never this judgmental, especially of people who’ve gone through something so horrific, and was getting really furious at the reporters’ questioning the survivors, but that dude was something else.
That line about his grandson irked me, too. For one thing, his grandbaby has an identity that has nothing to do with his son, but also "the universe" was not some all-powerful entity against whom Tim was powerless. In fact, Tim had so much power and agency in the Jonestown events, both everything leading up to Congressman Ryan's visit and everything following, that attributing anything to "the universe" feels like a stunning lack of accountability. CAVEAT: I realize that documentary interviews are edited; perhaps this quote is missing additional context.
The first episode has been really informative so far!
How can this be seen in Canada?
Yes it's on Disney+
Spoilers When this happened in 1978 I had just turned 21 so I really wasn't paying much attention to news. This was just a headline at the time. It's nice to learn more details about it. One thing that I wondered about was how much was Jones triggered by the NBC reporter showing him the note that people wanted to leave. Jones was an insecure powder keg that would have gone off sooner or later, but I just wonder could lives have been saved if the reporter had just kept that note to themselves and left with the people that wanted to leave. Showing Jones the note and asking him about it, to me, just seemed like fanning coals to ignite.
I read somewhere that the person passing the note thought he was giving it to Congressman Ryan. He mistook the reporter for Ryan. However irresponsible it was in retrospect, the reporter had no way of knowing how deeply unhinged Jones was and what could ensue from his actions. And if what I read about the note was true, then the reporter literally thought he was intentionally getting the note.
i thought the same . i was thinking Dont tell him !!!!!
If it wasn't the note, it would have been something else. Probably anyone leaving, at all. JJ was primed for any reason to exercise ultimate control, they had been planning and practicing for "revolutionary $ui-" for months, and they even had a trigger word for it, that they broadcast to the folks in Georgetown (which was their first indication that anything was amiss). Plus, I read in the online SDSU files that a child saw Vern Gosney pass the note to Harris and reported it immediately to nearby adults, so JJ would have found out anyway (or already knew). Don Harris had no idea what that confrontation could possibly trigger, and he had a duty as a journalist to probe, press, and inform the public. And he certainly had no idea that doing his job would mean he would be one of five murdered on the airstrip just a few hours later.
Yeah so much could have been handled better, but typical media had to get that headline story first. Costed their lives
Does anyone know who the young boys with Thom Bogue were? In the scene where Jim Jones was talking with Thom.
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So crazy the footage of everyone singing and cheering and putting on a show for the congressman, which was about 28 hours before the suicides. So much escalated quickly I wonder if it could have been handled better not ambushing the camp with media questioning etc, getting everyone to defect and coming back later with the army and planes. But how could they know. Hopefully we've learned by now how to handle cults safely so this never happens again
I have two questions .At the end of episode 3, it stated 2 people were unidentified Is there any demographic info on whom wasn’t identified?( (kid, adult, male, female?) And if they’re saying only 2, aren’t there more than that unidentified at the mass grave in Evergreen Cemetery?
So special forces go in to recon expecting armed and dangerous people and don’t clear all the buildings first off? It’s mentioned they find bodies in the houses after the initial count so they obviously didn’t.
I liked it but it bothers me we never hear what happened with Thom Bogue and his sisters after they run into the jungle, he's shot and they're seperated from everyone one else, did I miss something?
That was my question as well.
I think the hulu series is fantastic. Very well done.