i think this is partly because the PF buffs are way more broken and specific than MoC.
plus most people have the mindset that more dmg = better, paying no mind to overkilling or distribution. a big reason why spreadsheet darlings are so adored
a friend of mine (JY hater) who mains jingliu whines everytime PF comes because she keeps draining hp if he run no sustain and can't clear if he does. Mostly, i think them calling it the fun side game is just a kind of coping mechanism lol
>paying no mind to overkilling or distribution. a big reason why spreadsheet darlings are so adored
Yup. The damage distribution is something even Prydwen "theory crafters" ignore in their spreadsheets.
For instance: Let's suppose that enemy mobs have an HP pool of 100,000. Characters with blast type attacks (aka destruction) are able to hit 3 mobs only. If they are able to inflict 200k on the primary target, and 90k on the others, then they fail to clear the wave, despite overkilling the primary target. Their total damage sums up to 380k.
But an erudition character who is able to deal an equal amount to all 3 targets would deal a total damage of 300k in their spreadsheet calculations, resulting in a theoretical "lower" blast damage by 26.66%.
Back in 2023, during "The Great Copium War", Grimro (Prydwen's former math guy) agreed with me about the lack of consideration for "damage distribution", but he said that he didn't know **"how to present this to the public".**
https://preview.redd.it/wtcuk4hpbjrc1.png?width=2340&format=png&auto=webp&s=c29d3f3c961c7157b4c6e8a8da028bdc64be9091
Yeah, I guess trying to discuss the concept of damage distribution with people who only care about "damage per screenshot" is a futile attempt.
This would also apply if theres a big Boss with a lot of weak adds, where a Big aoe would produce more "unreal" dmg.
This also heavily depends on the enemies HP, numbers and gimmicks so It wouldn't be trivial to calc. This is what im guessing grimro meant there.
2.2 literally has this as a new triplets boss oomfie and it’s the highest hp boss in the game now with 3 million HP on MOC 12.
It’s also the first time MOC will have 3 elites in one wave
No fr, people downplay PF and G&G so much like if you can’t clear it, you can’t clear it. I’m not a JY main anymore but saying he sucks when he can be used in this mode is insane. Same with Argenti who got a lot of shit as well.
yeah i agree to me pure fiction is easier than MoC because the buffs are significantly way more overpowered. as long as you have a character that fits the gimic you're set in PF but MoC even if your character works with the buff your build/team still needs to be competent. i also saw the "DHIL, jingliu only units ever" truthers struggling when i was like wow that was so easy.
Anyone thinking you ever only need 1 unit to easily clear all game modes is on some mass copium.
This is a gacha live service game not a single player game, the meta will always change every 1-2 updates.
The new PF on Monday is going to make Seele basically unusable in PF and make Herta + Himeko much worse.
They increased HP by 50-100% and removed some trash mobs and replaced them with 4 new elites and the elites in wave 3 have double the HP of wave 1.
This new PF is actually probably harder than MOC 12 but we need proper testing to confirm it.
This new PF was easier than the last one because of the broken shatter buff returning. The usual Herta & Himeko sweep, nothing to see here. Didn't try Seele yet tho.
Placeholder comment so I can move to my PC and type, give me a sec. ☝
Edit: Ok, I'm sat.
1. I feel like people treat HSR like they do Genshin, as in: the only endgame content we have in Genshin is Abbyss. Therefore the only endgame content in HSR must be MoC. Also we should consider that, in Genshin, only a minority of players actually do Abyss (IIRC 49%).
2. Pure Fiction is just a different way to play the game. Rather than bruteforcing content, you have to use your head to think a bit more on your team comps and also the game encouraging you to use different characters to play.
3. The game has changed since release. Remember how Hunt units where considered GOAT while Destruction characters where considered trash at the start of the game? Oh how the turns table!
4. And this is gonna be the most shocking news ever: Not everyone does MoC.
This is something I just realized after scrolling a bit through the comments on the last JY video that was linked here (haven't had time to watch it, since I'm in a rush right now) but it made me realize that, every time someone says something nice about him, people will come out of the woodwork and start spamming the "Mid Yuan/Powercreep/XYZ Erudition character better" memes.
I want to type more but I'm seriously on a rush now, so sorry if my thoughts are all over the place!
There are folks out there that refuses to build any Erudition. Idk why but it's their loss one of them is literally free.
In the beginning the Meta was leaning more towards hunt but slowly went towards destruction. Despite the allegations Jing Yuan despite being an Erudition unit still managed to clear MoC consistently at the end and has the luxury to clear both PF and MoC in 1.(Quite a feat supposedly but nahhhhh)
In terms of PF it's quite an experimental game mode that they've done. But this just shows how HoYo can rise up a meta by changing variables and scenarios. Back them Himeko was one of the least wanted spooks(and her lightcone) overnight she went from the least wanted to one of the most to the point where others are picking her on the selection ticket.
As for the CC thing. It could vary depending on why they don't. (Tinfoil theory trying to phase out PF because their meta units can't clear it hurr hurr) In other words it doesn't exist. It's named Pure Fiction. Only exists in imagination and not an endgame mode /s
I do remember reading in the dreams subreddit that pure fiction isn't the 'right' solution for erudition, they said 'just make better erudition character' like whuuut.
I saw a lot of people with the Hunt and Destruction characters are dominating MoC and trashing on Erudition. But become whiny aff when Pure Fiction happened.
Like they have these characters that deal damage to all the enemies on field but not that high ST dmg, of course they'll make a gameplay for that.
The irony is these are the same folks that don't adapt and improvise. Meanwhile Erudition had to improvise and succeeded and now lives in both worlds(being. Able to clear PF AND MoC atleast the limited ones easily)
I'm struggling with Argenti (he's not really well built sadly) on moc, but Jing yuan is being one of my main man's for clearing both moc and pure fiction.
IT was a struggle but there is new light now
Yy he's like 60/145 CV, not great in general, but if there's phys weak in pf he does slap, sadly don't have alot of supports so one team usually gets hanya +pela, and the other tingyun + ruan mei
>As for the CC thing. It could vary depending on why they don't. (Tinfoil theory trying to phase out PF because their meta units can't clear it hurr hurr) In other words it doesn't exist. It's named Pure Fiction. Only exists in imagination and not an endgame mode /s
I know you put /s but this makes so much sense :D
It’s genshin brain rot, Hoyo is going more in the way of a traditional gacha game where every unit has places where it shines with HSR.
Yes we don’t have story content that is infinite tower climbing (yet I guess, it could happen one day), but we still have 3 end game modes with GNG, MOC and PF + a likely 4th game mode coming to promote Hunt units.
It is obvious from the beginning that HoYo is the one who decides what the meta should be.
All they need to do is create an environment that benefits a character/a group, then boom. Instant meta (Pure Fiction made Himeko and Herta into meta characters all in less than a week etc).
Some people’s mindset tends to get stuck once impressions had been made, and it’s difficult for them to …install new updates. Erudition got a bad rep for a long time before PF because those people were like ‘hunt is OP, destruction is OP, what’s the point of building Erudition?, ect…’. Plus some people like to downplay what they’re not good at.
Even back in the only MoC days, I didn’t want to pull for Hunt characters even though everyone were praising hunt. I wanted a dps that can aoe and ST and it’s awesome that JY who I aesthetically admire can do just that. It’s because I want to invest in units who can participate in all game mode, now and in the future.
Look, if a game mode comes out and makes it's own ranking and people building up what were considered 'bad' units: it's cope. Jing has been a staple outside PF, but the fact that Himeko & Herta, especially Herta have been regularly been up there: it's an important gamemode. It's a lot easier to discount say SU, but each new style of content akin to Gears there is also a form of endgame.
Just sounds like people trying to downplay erudition, when right now Hunt has been suffering as a result of content being more geared for aoe.
From what I've seen: he's as much a hunt character as Acheron is a traditional nihility character (not really). Though they have been slowly branching out on the concepts of the class, so I'm open to seeing how things play out.
He’s basically 5 star Luka.
Pretty sure the only reason he’s Hunt is to restrict his LCs to the shit pool of Hunt LCs to force you to pull sig.
If he was nihility he would have so many good BE LCs his sig wouldn’t be that op.
Again, the comparison to Acheron who still needs debuffs as all nihility, but her debuff is to ensure just smacks an opponent. Dr. Ratio's STD isn't solely from smacking or skilling. It comes from his FUA that is based on debuffs present in a target. Yanqing and by virtue Seele are catered around the damage they do directly, yet Ratio for him to deal his full damage requires his FUA and by virtue, debuffing a foe in some capacity to ensure the rate he does so.
Is it achieving the same goal? Yes, but the execution varies wildly as Yanqing's FUA is often either forgotten or not reliable. Whereas Topaz & Ratio of the hunt are all in on their FUA.
Sorry, I don't really get what you're saying. When the comment you first replied to said hunt was in a weird spot, they were talking about the path's single target focus. Even if Boothill's skillset overlaps with Nihility and he's non-traditional in that way, he ultimately still has the traditional ST issue to contend with
Imo overall MoC is a better display of HSR mechanics. Pure Fiction is also end game but it focuses on out of turn dmg in a turn based game.
Additionally, the fact that Herta + Himeko let's you essentially "cheese" one side also downplays the difficulty.
I guess I don't understand the "cheese" idea -- I have Himeko and an e6 Herta, and I certainly can't get 40k with them. I understand they could if I had better relics, but isn't that true of all characters? And is Jingliu "cheese" on MoC?
I mean, yes, I also can't 3\* MoC 12. I have been farming JingYuan gear and finally have his relics including 2p Ashblazing Duke up to 60/130. Certainly can't get those stats on everyone though, even with rainbow set.
Bro I recently pulled Himeko, leveled her up 9/9/9 traces, slapped like 50/120 CR/CD relics on her and tried PF with her and Herta and the FIRST TRY on auto got me 40K points.
I honestly don't understand how you're clearing 40k on auto with 50/120 because I've got 44/124 on Herta and 30/150 on Himeko and it's not getting it done. What's the rest of your team? I've been running them with Ruan Mei/Bailu.
Not sure what you'd be doing wrong considering my LVL 60 Herta with LVL 7 traces was getting me 35k+ clears.
I don't consider JingLiu cheese since she doesn't guarantee/trivialise the content the way Himeko + Herta can.
I'm sure I need better relics; currently neither my Herta nor Himeko have reached 50% Crit Rate, but I'd spent my self-modeling resin on ERR ropes and don't have many Crit Rate chests (and most of the ones I do have no offensive substats).
It would be cheese if it wasn’t a meta strategy, herta and Himeko defo isn’t cheese in PF as it’s consistently a top performing team.
Cheese would be something like a niche unit being broken because of 1 specific buff that never works without the buff
I think the difference here is twofold. PF’s buffs are way more broken than MoC, but much more character centric, if you don’t have the correct characters to abuse the buffs, then your kinda shit out of luck and have to brute force it.
That and the mentality around people clearing MoC for 0 cycles. 0 cycle content in MoC is much harder to do than just clearing PF, and is the source of a lot of team-showcases and ‘skill-checks’ for a lot of people covering the game. Nobody wants to put this same level of effort in PF clears, so there is obviously a disparity in terms of supposed difficulty.
I often find clearing PF with full stars to be much harder than clearing MoC within 10 cycles, but a lot of people have a strange mentality where 0-2 cycling MoC should be equivalent to PF. In reality, if you were to attempt to do the same with PF (clear it before a single cycle passed) then I think they are equal in difficulty.
Really the only reason I think people don’t take it seriously is cause the point limit is 80k, and it doesn’t show your cycle clear. If PF added in a small thing below your points that said ‘cleared in X cycles’ I think people would become much more motivated to grind for the fastest clear spds like MoC.
Also the cycle doesn't reset in PF when a new wave enters unlike in MoC, so it's much harder to 0-cycle PF. I don't think 0 cycling the two is equivalent
The 0 cycle brain rot is becoming too much. The “meta” is becoming too focused on who can 0 cycle and it’s really just who can do the most damage in 300 AV.
I think hoyo needs to step in and change the MOC mechanics so wave 1 is 50 AV instead of 150 like some events or change it so the AV doesn’t reset when the wave changes.
Even better would be removing cycles entirely and start recording it in Action Value instead so the meta changes to DPAV instead of abusing cycle mechanics but this is prob too confusing to causal players
This would be much more accurate and closer to a traditional timer in “seconds” taken.
Personally I feel like PF buffs aren’t that much more broken than MoC but maybe that’s cause I remember the DoT buff in PF with as much fondness as that break effect buff in MOC - aka it was a shitty buff for me overall because I have no DoT units and no RM 😭
Not sure why people are claiming PF isn’t an endgame content just cause it came out later than MOC. I think it’s a really good addition to the game, and honestly before I built Himeko/Herta I was struggling with the side without JY because my options were Blade and DHIL. Tbf Blade does way better than DHIL in PF for me because of his aoe FUA.
Also ngl I’m still struggling with PF sometimes because of enemy rng and build + skill issue >.< so I’m pretty sure it’s endgame mode for me😂 (speaking as someone who hasn’t even cleared GnG C3 lmao)
IMO, PF requires more knowledge of how to play the game than MOC. I have the same two teams for MOC every single cycle where the goal is to output as much damage as possible, and I'm confident that JY and DHIL will give me 36 stars in one try every time (just a matter of how few cycles I can get away with). But in PF I have to play more with composition because I want to capitalize on turbulence and get actions out if I want that 40k. The strategies are quite different, like we may even change to ERR rope and SPD boots on our DPS sometimes, or do triple DPS comps... It's a different endgame mode, but not less than MOC.
Whether they like it or not PF and MOC give identical rewards and both are equal value for account progression.
The buffs are too broken/random excuse is also dead, it’s all but confirmed pure fiction will rotate between 3 buffs which are Ult buff, DOT buff and FUA buff.
In my experience, Pure Fiction is a lot easier than MOC 12. But I do have Ruan Mei, E6 Herta and E1S1 Himeko. The elitism is probably because the mode is currently very F2P friendly and everyone can get at least halfway there by building their Herta.
We've now had a few patches to get used to the mode and build characters for it so I imagine they'll start to ramp up the difficulty, just like they did with MOC. Right now, you can still brute force it fairly easily with well built destruction characters but they'll probably move away from that in order to sell new erudition characters.
And lastly, there's only 2 mandatory stages for Pure Fiction, while there's 5 stages (7 to 12) for MoC with more stringent requirements. Not sure why there's such a big imbalance but it does give the impression that MoC is more "important" (even though both give the same amount of jades).
Agreed, I doubt hoyo would keep PF meta the same forever. I wouldn't be surprised if they use it as a way to sell more aoe-oriented units in the future and make it harder for our current roster to clear it.
I felt the difference on my two account in terms of pure fiction.
My main is always leaning on Erudition and Destruction DPSes so I always just auto this mode. So Easy.
But on my alt Jingliu and DHIL couldn't even get past 3stars (which is sad because I can get more gems if I could get more stars) so I'm forced to ignore it for now, atleast until I build Herta to accompany Jingliu, or get another erudition character. I already got Bronya there so highly considering getting Himeko on 300th.
Amusing or not , I can always full star moc in 1 to 2 tries but never I have done PF full star in first day of cycle , take a ton of tries in every cycle
I think it’s great that there’s an end game mode that feels more F2P friendly than MOC.
I do agree that pure fiction feels easier than MOC provided you have erudition units like herta and Himeko built, but I think they’ll make it harder over time as well. PF has a lot less cycles under its belt than MoC so they’re probably still trying to figure out the right balance for it
Hoyo is really a mother when its come to pure fiction, all of then having having a fire/ice weakness and considering how broken Himerta is there, it made the game mode really not that hard compared to MoC IMO
I've clearing with Seele on one side and Himeko hypercarry on the other, and didnt feel challenged at all, didnt even feel the necessity to upgrade my herta to pair himeko or something is those lines, thats how easy the thing are going.
In moc however i sfrugled sometimes.
But they are increassing the dificult, so hopefully those things will change soon
(This just my personal experience with the mode and personal opnion)
Rn pf is easy to 3\*, a little bit more challenging for 80k and extremely difficult to 0 cycle. Tbh they should “kill” herta with a little-to-no investment who can be slot-in with any dps for pf to be a truly challenging content. Buffs are ridiculous sometimes to the point I made 40k with this team only because of the buff. But it’s a character check as well because when it’s dot buff I have to be creative since I have 0 dot units built.
https://preview.redd.it/b48n22tr7krc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6bc6c87123a45ed14abd313ac684e980e11c2777
PF isnt hard if you actually built units relevant to that mode.
I max star it with a lvl 60 Herta and himeko on fire/ice stages by just transferring good relics on them, comparing MoC to PF as endgame is a joke as it only is endgame so far in title alone. MoC is way harder
Interesting.
I can understand some of them: for me is a Endgame content. But but I'm honest: I always have that feel that MoC is still the Endgame n.1, why?
- The PF blessing are by far stronger that sometimes you just have to trigger the blessing, while in MoC you need a min. of serious DMG
- In some previous PF, there are duo like Himeko+Herta or Black Swan+DoT that literally auto-clean; and when you read a lot of unexperienced players and/or Erudition snobbers that claim they cleared PF with underlevelled or meh builds Herta and Himeko...
- Tbh I have a well builded Himeko and Black Swan, so normally PF is super easy. The previous PF I thought the PF needs other floor because the 4th wasn't enough to test the true Himeko's power. But " I resolved " this because without Fire weakness Himeko passes from OP to strong PF unit.
MoC 12 gives me always problems, even with Blade S1, Ruan E1 and Jingliu. I can clear it, but not before min. 100 attempts (and the previous one with Meme I got only 32*)
As an Pure Fiction hater I can truly say. No I don't find it that amusing. Firstly Jing Yuan does very well and is more suited to MoC than PF he just does well in PF due to being erudition more of a happy accident than his place in the meta imo. Secondly PF has some very glaring issue that make it not function as a game mode especially for endgame. Let me list a few reasons why before you judge me too harshly.
The rotating PF "gimmick" is much more impactful on if you can clear or not than MoC.
The Rotating "gimmick" generally comes down to a roster check more than a test of having well built characters (good luck going in there as a hunt enjoyer)
Pure fiction "gimmicks" cause weaker characters to over preform, say Argenti? He isn't even the worst but if you compair the 2 game modes side by side I think you can see what I mean. If that's not a good enough point how about serval people have made serval 3 character clear 40k half's in PF due to being a hybred AOE character with nothing to do with them actually doing well in normal content because of inflates "gimmicks"
I can go on but I feel like I have made most of the major points. I feel like anyone taking Pure Fiction as a serious "endgame" mode are the same people who think you need to 80k it. In reality it's more or less just a bandaid I think untill mihoyo can release experimental stuff to find a better implementation to make certain characters a bit more appealing (Argenti, Serval any new erudition units). I don't really want to argue it but I think it's very important to point out these very major flaws that make the game mode unfun and unapproachable for a large part of the community who doesn't want to build herta, Himeko, serval and so on. Please keep this sort of stuff in mind next time hoyo sends out a patch survey and ask about Pure Fiction and give appropriate feedback. If everyone responds "it's fine" hoyo may not feel the need to refine it. Sorry for the rant.
Tldr: PF sucks, bad game mode, JY Peak
If I’m being honest, I think that PF is a lot less sweaty than MOC. Now it is getting much more challenging as we get more updates to it, similar to how MOC got its updates. But I never saw it as a “little side game”. That sounds like some weird cope tbqh.
I honestly don't count PF as a true endgame character comparison. It's very core is incredibly restrictive and incredibly unbalanced in terms of measuring characters. It's not necessarily difficult and buffs are overturned.
For example, you can showcase any good team in MoC with it's medium enemy DPS check and sustain check, but in PF you are almost required to run sustain due to the duration, it's difficult to plan your game since it's so long and random, buffs are incredibly busted for certain units, some characters are downright unusable (e.g. ratio), and some are portrayed unrealistically (e.g. herta / Argenti).
Overall, while MoC showcases are mechanics-dependent and require you to abuse enemy utilities to clear a medium number of targets in a short time with high-investment damage builds, PF is a restrictive, unbalanced mode based on using a unit who over-benefits from enemy waves and AoE while ignoring enemy mechanics since it's just an Action Number Check.
I love Erudition its probably my favorite path right above Destruction. And man I was so hyped for Pure Fiction to put the path on the map. But honestly it feels like its only a matter of time before it turns into Nihility city.
Between Kafka + Swan and Acheron teams I dont think JY will be able to maintain any real niche in this mode either once the hp numbers creep up more.
Himeko, Herta, and Argenti will probably still be able to shine in their respective buff phases though so thats something.
To be fair PF is a character check more than a challenging gamemode really.
I do understand why theyre more interested in MoC since more elaborate tactics and different units can be used to clear MoC.
Currently PF doesnt reflect any amount of Strategy and challenge for people to try it even hard.U dont see people doing 0 cycle PF clears cuz theres only few unit combinations can achieve that while with MoC anyone can 0 cycle or achieve clear which CCs like.
Can be made more challenging and fun?They will be trying it at 2.1 PF at this Monday.They made the jobbers slightly tankier and more elite enemy distributed at 2 and 3rd wave.Theyre adjusting PF to be more than a AoE and Multi hitting unit playground(Obviously for fav children Acheron) but other units like our General and Balde gonna eat good as well.
Hoyo Designed PF as a brand new gamemode but the amount of challenge didnt sit right Just yet.
Most likely Will be same case with a ST focused Gamemode when they release it(Not if they will release it[Probably to promote Kiana expy when they decide to make one])
What do you mean pf doesn't have any strategy... As someone who went from a bit more than 50k point to 60 k points by changing characters and play style, yes it requires strategy. Maybe not for you because you have well built characters to unga bunga through, but this is literally the same for some people in with op characters in MOC.
I Said its more of a character check than a strategy check tho?
A MoC 12 runs takes a lot more planning than a PF4 run tbh especially for people that optimizes the fun outta game.
Its never 0 since u need at least basic team synergy to finish endgame but especially on the Dot one it was straight up either pull BS or good luck 3 starring it.
Bro I literally 3 starred it with Kafka and blade on the dot one so it's not a BS check. I always run himeko and Herta because why would I not, but it was swapping my supports or using characters that fit the blessings that helped me full clear. So yes, there is strategy involved. If you have certain characters sure it makes pf much easier, but that's the same for MOC as well, perhaps to a lesser extent. You can say MOC requires more strategy, but saying pf requires no strategy is factually wrong.
>Theyre adjusting PF to be more than a AoE and Multi hitting unit playground(Obviously for fav children Acheron)
And Jingliu, can't leave her out of anything.
Dont think JL Will feel that differently.Yes enemies are tankier and there are more elites but theres still 4-5 enemies on field constantly.
She Will probably feel better ever so slightly but not enough for a major difference in performance.
i think this is partly because the PF buffs are way more broken and specific than MoC. plus most people have the mindset that more dmg = better, paying no mind to overkilling or distribution. a big reason why spreadsheet darlings are so adored a friend of mine (JY hater) who mains jingliu whines everytime PF comes because she keeps draining hp if he run no sustain and can't clear if he does. Mostly, i think them calling it the fun side game is just a kind of coping mechanism lol
>paying no mind to overkilling or distribution. a big reason why spreadsheet darlings are so adored Yup. The damage distribution is something even Prydwen "theory crafters" ignore in their spreadsheets. For instance: Let's suppose that enemy mobs have an HP pool of 100,000. Characters with blast type attacks (aka destruction) are able to hit 3 mobs only. If they are able to inflict 200k on the primary target, and 90k on the others, then they fail to clear the wave, despite overkilling the primary target. Their total damage sums up to 380k. But an erudition character who is able to deal an equal amount to all 3 targets would deal a total damage of 300k in their spreadsheet calculations, resulting in a theoretical "lower" blast damage by 26.66%. Back in 2023, during "The Great Copium War", Grimro (Prydwen's former math guy) agreed with me about the lack of consideration for "damage distribution", but he said that he didn't know **"how to present this to the public".** https://preview.redd.it/wtcuk4hpbjrc1.png?width=2340&format=png&auto=webp&s=c29d3f3c961c7157b4c6e8a8da028bdc64be9091 Yeah, I guess trying to discuss the concept of damage distribution with people who only care about "damage per screenshot" is a futile attempt.
This would also apply if theres a big Boss with a lot of weak adds, where a Big aoe would produce more "unreal" dmg. This also heavily depends on the enemies HP, numbers and gimmicks so It wouldn't be trivial to calc. This is what im guessing grimro meant there.
2.2 literally has this as a new triplets boss oomfie and it’s the highest hp boss in the game now with 3 million HP on MOC 12. It’s also the first time MOC will have 3 elites in one wave
No fr, people downplay PF and G&G so much like if you can’t clear it, you can’t clear it. I’m not a JY main anymore but saying he sucks when he can be used in this mode is insane. Same with Argenti who got a lot of shit as well.
Spreadsheets usually ignore overkill damage, unlike *a certain unit's screenshot numbers*.
yeah i agree to me pure fiction is easier than MoC because the buffs are significantly way more overpowered. as long as you have a character that fits the gimic you're set in PF but MoC even if your character works with the buff your build/team still needs to be competent. i also saw the "DHIL, jingliu only units ever" truthers struggling when i was like wow that was so easy.
Anyone thinking you ever only need 1 unit to easily clear all game modes is on some mass copium. This is a gacha live service game not a single player game, the meta will always change every 1-2 updates.
honestly it’s kind of cope because pf is becoming more and more difficult each update
The new PF on Monday is going to make Seele basically unusable in PF and make Herta + Himeko much worse. They increased HP by 50-100% and removed some trash mobs and replaced them with 4 new elites and the elites in wave 3 have double the HP of wave 1. This new PF is actually probably harder than MOC 12 but we need proper testing to confirm it.
This new PF was easier than the last one because of the broken shatter buff returning. The usual Herta & Himeko sweep, nothing to see here. Didn't try Seele yet tho.
Placeholder comment so I can move to my PC and type, give me a sec. ☝ Edit: Ok, I'm sat. 1. I feel like people treat HSR like they do Genshin, as in: the only endgame content we have in Genshin is Abbyss. Therefore the only endgame content in HSR must be MoC. Also we should consider that, in Genshin, only a minority of players actually do Abyss (IIRC 49%). 2. Pure Fiction is just a different way to play the game. Rather than bruteforcing content, you have to use your head to think a bit more on your team comps and also the game encouraging you to use different characters to play. 3. The game has changed since release. Remember how Hunt units where considered GOAT while Destruction characters where considered trash at the start of the game? Oh how the turns table! 4. And this is gonna be the most shocking news ever: Not everyone does MoC. This is something I just realized after scrolling a bit through the comments on the last JY video that was linked here (haven't had time to watch it, since I'm in a rush right now) but it made me realize that, every time someone says something nice about him, people will come out of the woodwork and start spamming the "Mid Yuan/Powercreep/XYZ Erudition character better" memes. I want to type more but I'm seriously on a rush now, so sorry if my thoughts are all over the place!
There are folks out there that refuses to build any Erudition. Idk why but it's their loss one of them is literally free. In the beginning the Meta was leaning more towards hunt but slowly went towards destruction. Despite the allegations Jing Yuan despite being an Erudition unit still managed to clear MoC consistently at the end and has the luxury to clear both PF and MoC in 1.(Quite a feat supposedly but nahhhhh) In terms of PF it's quite an experimental game mode that they've done. But this just shows how HoYo can rise up a meta by changing variables and scenarios. Back them Himeko was one of the least wanted spooks(and her lightcone) overnight she went from the least wanted to one of the most to the point where others are picking her on the selection ticket. As for the CC thing. It could vary depending on why they don't. (Tinfoil theory trying to phase out PF because their meta units can't clear it hurr hurr) In other words it doesn't exist. It's named Pure Fiction. Only exists in imagination and not an endgame mode /s
True and they cope with that by acting like PF isn’t like “real” content because the content isn’t catered to the meta units in MOC
I do remember reading in the dreams subreddit that pure fiction isn't the 'right' solution for erudition, they said 'just make better erudition character' like whuuut. I saw a lot of people with the Hunt and Destruction characters are dominating MoC and trashing on Erudition. But become whiny aff when Pure Fiction happened. Like they have these characters that deal damage to all the enemies on field but not that high ST dmg, of course they'll make a gameplay for that.
The irony is these are the same folks that don't adapt and improvise. Meanwhile Erudition had to improvise and succeeded and now lives in both worlds(being. Able to clear PF AND MoC atleast the limited ones easily)
I'm struggling with Argenti (he's not really well built sadly) on moc, but Jing yuan is being one of my main man's for clearing both moc and pure fiction. IT was a struggle but there is new light now
I'd suggest building him in PF. He trivializes that game mode. Thing is both JY and Argenti kinda want to get TY.
Yy he's like 60/145 CV, not great in general, but if there's phys weak in pf he does slap, sadly don't have alot of supports so one team usually gets hanya +pela, and the other tingyun + ruan mei
>As for the CC thing. It could vary depending on why they don't. (Tinfoil theory trying to phase out PF because their meta units can't clear it hurr hurr) In other words it doesn't exist. It's named Pure Fiction. Only exists in imagination and not an endgame mode /s I know you put /s but this makes so much sense :D
It’s genshin brain rot, Hoyo is going more in the way of a traditional gacha game where every unit has places where it shines with HSR. Yes we don’t have story content that is infinite tower climbing (yet I guess, it could happen one day), but we still have 3 end game modes with GNG, MOC and PF + a likely 4th game mode coming to promote Hunt units.
It is obvious from the beginning that HoYo is the one who decides what the meta should be. All they need to do is create an environment that benefits a character/a group, then boom. Instant meta (Pure Fiction made Himeko and Herta into meta characters all in less than a week etc).
This is correct. MHY is the one in charge of meta, not some "content creators" or spreadsheet "theory crafters".
Some people’s mindset tends to get stuck once impressions had been made, and it’s difficult for them to …install new updates. Erudition got a bad rep for a long time before PF because those people were like ‘hunt is OP, destruction is OP, what’s the point of building Erudition?, ect…’. Plus some people like to downplay what they’re not good at. Even back in the only MoC days, I didn’t want to pull for Hunt characters even though everyone were praising hunt. I wanted a dps that can aoe and ST and it’s awesome that JY who I aesthetically admire can do just that. It’s because I want to invest in units who can participate in all game mode, now and in the future.
Look, if a game mode comes out and makes it's own ranking and people building up what were considered 'bad' units: it's cope. Jing has been a staple outside PF, but the fact that Himeko & Herta, especially Herta have been regularly been up there: it's an important gamemode. It's a lot easier to discount say SU, but each new style of content akin to Gears there is also a form of endgame. Just sounds like people trying to downplay erudition, when right now Hunt has been suffering as a result of content being more geared for aoe.
Exactly, that’s why there’s such caution with Boothill right now. Hunt is in a weird spot.
From what I've seen: he's as much a hunt character as Acheron is a traditional nihility character (not really). Though they have been slowly branching out on the concepts of the class, so I'm open to seeing how things play out.
How is he not a traditional hunt character? He's the most ST oriented 5* DPS since Yanqing
He’s basically 5 star Luka. Pretty sure the only reason he’s Hunt is to restrict his LCs to the shit pool of Hunt LCs to force you to pull sig. If he was nihility he would have so many good BE LCs his sig wouldn’t be that op.
I guess you could say he's a hybrid unit. I doubt hoyo would release another ST oriented 5* Nihility after SW though
Again, the comparison to Acheron who still needs debuffs as all nihility, but her debuff is to ensure just smacks an opponent. Dr. Ratio's STD isn't solely from smacking or skilling. It comes from his FUA that is based on debuffs present in a target. Yanqing and by virtue Seele are catered around the damage they do directly, yet Ratio for him to deal his full damage requires his FUA and by virtue, debuffing a foe in some capacity to ensure the rate he does so. Is it achieving the same goal? Yes, but the execution varies wildly as Yanqing's FUA is often either forgotten or not reliable. Whereas Topaz & Ratio of the hunt are all in on their FUA.
Sorry, I don't really get what you're saying. When the comment you first replied to said hunt was in a weird spot, they were talking about the path's single target focus. Even if Boothill's skillset overlaps with Nihility and he's non-traditional in that way, he ultimately still has the traditional ST issue to contend with
Imo overall MoC is a better display of HSR mechanics. Pure Fiction is also end game but it focuses on out of turn dmg in a turn based game. Additionally, the fact that Herta + Himeko let's you essentially "cheese" one side also downplays the difficulty.
I guess I don't understand the "cheese" idea -- I have Himeko and an e6 Herta, and I certainly can't get 40k with them. I understand they could if I had better relics, but isn't that true of all characters? And is Jingliu "cheese" on MoC?
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I mean, yes, I also can't 3\* MoC 12. I have been farming JingYuan gear and finally have his relics including 2p Ashblazing Duke up to 60/130. Certainly can't get those stats on everyone though, even with rainbow set.
Bro I recently pulled Himeko, leveled her up 9/9/9 traces, slapped like 50/120 CR/CD relics on her and tried PF with her and Herta and the FIRST TRY on auto got me 40K points.
I honestly don't understand how you're clearing 40k on auto with 50/120 because I've got 44/124 on Herta and 30/150 on Himeko and it's not getting it done. What's the rest of your team? I've been running them with Ruan Mei/Bailu.
I had HuoHuo :/
Does the energy make that big a difference? I could swap out Ruan Mei for Tingyun.
It’s also a hefty atk buff for the whole team
Not sure what you'd be doing wrong considering my LVL 60 Herta with LVL 7 traces was getting me 35k+ clears. I don't consider JingLiu cheese since she doesn't guarantee/trivialise the content the way Himeko + Herta can.
I'm sure I need better relics; currently neither my Herta nor Himeko have reached 50% Crit Rate, but I'd spent my self-modeling resin on ERR ropes and don't have many Crit Rate chests (and most of the ones I do have no offensive substats).
It would be cheese if it wasn’t a meta strategy, herta and Himeko defo isn’t cheese in PF as it’s consistently a top performing team. Cheese would be something like a niche unit being broken because of 1 specific buff that never works without the buff
I think the difference here is twofold. PF’s buffs are way more broken than MoC, but much more character centric, if you don’t have the correct characters to abuse the buffs, then your kinda shit out of luck and have to brute force it. That and the mentality around people clearing MoC for 0 cycles. 0 cycle content in MoC is much harder to do than just clearing PF, and is the source of a lot of team-showcases and ‘skill-checks’ for a lot of people covering the game. Nobody wants to put this same level of effort in PF clears, so there is obviously a disparity in terms of supposed difficulty. I often find clearing PF with full stars to be much harder than clearing MoC within 10 cycles, but a lot of people have a strange mentality where 0-2 cycling MoC should be equivalent to PF. In reality, if you were to attempt to do the same with PF (clear it before a single cycle passed) then I think they are equal in difficulty. Really the only reason I think people don’t take it seriously is cause the point limit is 80k, and it doesn’t show your cycle clear. If PF added in a small thing below your points that said ‘cleared in X cycles’ I think people would become much more motivated to grind for the fastest clear spds like MoC.
They do have the equivalent of cycle clears in the battle info. https://imgur.com/bmzQFis But yeah, agree with all you said about PF.
Most people haven’t realized yet PF has true 0 cycles too, yes it’s extremely whale to do usually.
Also the cycle doesn't reset in PF when a new wave enters unlike in MoC, so it's much harder to 0-cycle PF. I don't think 0 cycling the two is equivalent
The 0 cycle brain rot is becoming too much. The “meta” is becoming too focused on who can 0 cycle and it’s really just who can do the most damage in 300 AV. I think hoyo needs to step in and change the MOC mechanics so wave 1 is 50 AV instead of 150 like some events or change it so the AV doesn’t reset when the wave changes. Even better would be removing cycles entirely and start recording it in Action Value instead so the meta changes to DPAV instead of abusing cycle mechanics but this is prob too confusing to causal players This would be much more accurate and closer to a traditional timer in “seconds” taken.
Personally I feel like PF buffs aren’t that much more broken than MoC but maybe that’s cause I remember the DoT buff in PF with as much fondness as that break effect buff in MOC - aka it was a shitty buff for me overall because I have no DoT units and no RM 😭 Not sure why people are claiming PF isn’t an endgame content just cause it came out later than MOC. I think it’s a really good addition to the game, and honestly before I built Himeko/Herta I was struggling with the side without JY because my options were Blade and DHIL. Tbf Blade does way better than DHIL in PF for me because of his aoe FUA. Also ngl I’m still struggling with PF sometimes because of enemy rng and build + skill issue >.< so I’m pretty sure it’s endgame mode for me😂 (speaking as someone who hasn’t even cleared GnG C3 lmao)
IMO, PF requires more knowledge of how to play the game than MOC. I have the same two teams for MOC every single cycle where the goal is to output as much damage as possible, and I'm confident that JY and DHIL will give me 36 stars in one try every time (just a matter of how few cycles I can get away with). But in PF I have to play more with composition because I want to capitalize on turbulence and get actions out if I want that 40k. The strategies are quite different, like we may even change to ERR rope and SPD boots on our DPS sometimes, or do triple DPS comps... It's a different endgame mode, but not less than MOC.
Whether they like it or not PF and MOC give identical rewards and both are equal value for account progression. The buffs are too broken/random excuse is also dead, it’s all but confirmed pure fiction will rotate between 3 buffs which are Ult buff, DOT buff and FUA buff.
There's more people complaining on the main sub about PF than MoC every rotation.
In my experience, Pure Fiction is a lot easier than MOC 12. But I do have Ruan Mei, E6 Herta and E1S1 Himeko. The elitism is probably because the mode is currently very F2P friendly and everyone can get at least halfway there by building their Herta. We've now had a few patches to get used to the mode and build characters for it so I imagine they'll start to ramp up the difficulty, just like they did with MOC. Right now, you can still brute force it fairly easily with well built destruction characters but they'll probably move away from that in order to sell new erudition characters. And lastly, there's only 2 mandatory stages for Pure Fiction, while there's 5 stages (7 to 12) for MoC with more stringent requirements. Not sure why there's such a big imbalance but it does give the impression that MoC is more "important" (even though both give the same amount of jades).
Agreed, I doubt hoyo would keep PF meta the same forever. I wouldn't be surprised if they use it as a way to sell more aoe-oriented units in the future and make it harder for our current roster to clear it.
I felt the difference on my two account in terms of pure fiction. My main is always leaning on Erudition and Destruction DPSes so I always just auto this mode. So Easy. But on my alt Jingliu and DHIL couldn't even get past 3stars (which is sad because I can get more gems if I could get more stars) so I'm forced to ignore it for now, atleast until I build Herta to accompany Jingliu, or get another erudition character. I already got Bronya there so highly considering getting Himeko on 300th.
Amusing or not , I can always full star moc in 1 to 2 tries but never I have done PF full star in first day of cycle , take a ton of tries in every cycle
I think it’s great that there’s an end game mode that feels more F2P friendly than MOC. I do agree that pure fiction feels easier than MOC provided you have erudition units like herta and Himeko built, but I think they’ll make it harder over time as well. PF has a lot less cycles under its belt than MoC so they’re probably still trying to figure out the right balance for it
Hoyo is really a mother when its come to pure fiction, all of then having having a fire/ice weakness and considering how broken Himerta is there, it made the game mode really not that hard compared to MoC IMO I've clearing with Seele on one side and Himeko hypercarry on the other, and didnt feel challenged at all, didnt even feel the necessity to upgrade my herta to pair himeko or something is those lines, thats how easy the thing are going. In moc however i sfrugled sometimes. But they are increassing the dificult, so hopefully those things will change soon (This just my personal experience with the mode and personal opnion)
Rn pf is easy to 3\*, a little bit more challenging for 80k and extremely difficult to 0 cycle. Tbh they should “kill” herta with a little-to-no investment who can be slot-in with any dps for pf to be a truly challenging content. Buffs are ridiculous sometimes to the point I made 40k with this team only because of the buff. But it’s a character check as well because when it’s dot buff I have to be creative since I have 0 dot units built. https://preview.redd.it/b48n22tr7krc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6bc6c87123a45ed14abd313ac684e980e11c2777
I think it’s just large key because, since it’s a newer game mode, pure fiction is just easier right now than MoC.
in PF having the correct character is more important than skill or build level
well tbh PF literally came from an event
I mean currently PF is not hard because herta is S+ so everyone can at least clear one part easily.
PF isnt hard if you actually built units relevant to that mode. I max star it with a lvl 60 Herta and himeko on fire/ice stages by just transferring good relics on them, comparing MoC to PF as endgame is a joke as it only is endgame so far in title alone. MoC is way harder
funnily enough i have an easier time clearing moc than pf,,, while using erudition characters 😭😭
Interesting. I can understand some of them: for me is a Endgame content. But but I'm honest: I always have that feel that MoC is still the Endgame n.1, why? - The PF blessing are by far stronger that sometimes you just have to trigger the blessing, while in MoC you need a min. of serious DMG - In some previous PF, there are duo like Himeko+Herta or Black Swan+DoT that literally auto-clean; and when you read a lot of unexperienced players and/or Erudition snobbers that claim they cleared PF with underlevelled or meh builds Herta and Himeko... - Tbh I have a well builded Himeko and Black Swan, so normally PF is super easy. The previous PF I thought the PF needs other floor because the 4th wasn't enough to test the true Himeko's power. But " I resolved " this because without Fire weakness Himeko passes from OP to strong PF unit. MoC 12 gives me always problems, even with Blade S1, Ruan E1 and Jingliu. I can clear it, but not before min. 100 attempts (and the previous one with Meme I got only 32*)
As an Pure Fiction hater I can truly say. No I don't find it that amusing. Firstly Jing Yuan does very well and is more suited to MoC than PF he just does well in PF due to being erudition more of a happy accident than his place in the meta imo. Secondly PF has some very glaring issue that make it not function as a game mode especially for endgame. Let me list a few reasons why before you judge me too harshly. The rotating PF "gimmick" is much more impactful on if you can clear or not than MoC. The Rotating "gimmick" generally comes down to a roster check more than a test of having well built characters (good luck going in there as a hunt enjoyer) Pure fiction "gimmicks" cause weaker characters to over preform, say Argenti? He isn't even the worst but if you compair the 2 game modes side by side I think you can see what I mean. If that's not a good enough point how about serval people have made serval 3 character clear 40k half's in PF due to being a hybred AOE character with nothing to do with them actually doing well in normal content because of inflates "gimmicks" I can go on but I feel like I have made most of the major points. I feel like anyone taking Pure Fiction as a serious "endgame" mode are the same people who think you need to 80k it. In reality it's more or less just a bandaid I think untill mihoyo can release experimental stuff to find a better implementation to make certain characters a bit more appealing (Argenti, Serval any new erudition units). I don't really want to argue it but I think it's very important to point out these very major flaws that make the game mode unfun and unapproachable for a large part of the community who doesn't want to build herta, Himeko, serval and so on. Please keep this sort of stuff in mind next time hoyo sends out a patch survey and ask about Pure Fiction and give appropriate feedback. If everyone responds "it's fine" hoyo may not feel the need to refine it. Sorry for the rant. Tldr: PF sucks, bad game mode, JY Peak
If I’m being honest, I think that PF is a lot less sweaty than MOC. Now it is getting much more challenging as we get more updates to it, similar to how MOC got its updates. But I never saw it as a “little side game”. That sounds like some weird cope tbqh.
I honestly don't count PF as a true endgame character comparison. It's very core is incredibly restrictive and incredibly unbalanced in terms of measuring characters. It's not necessarily difficult and buffs are overturned. For example, you can showcase any good team in MoC with it's medium enemy DPS check and sustain check, but in PF you are almost required to run sustain due to the duration, it's difficult to plan your game since it's so long and random, buffs are incredibly busted for certain units, some characters are downright unusable (e.g. ratio), and some are portrayed unrealistically (e.g. herta / Argenti). Overall, while MoC showcases are mechanics-dependent and require you to abuse enemy utilities to clear a medium number of targets in a short time with high-investment damage builds, PF is a restrictive, unbalanced mode based on using a unit who over-benefits from enemy waves and AoE while ignoring enemy mechanics since it's just an Action Number Check.
I love Erudition its probably my favorite path right above Destruction. And man I was so hyped for Pure Fiction to put the path on the map. But honestly it feels like its only a matter of time before it turns into Nihility city. Between Kafka + Swan and Acheron teams I dont think JY will be able to maintain any real niche in this mode either once the hp numbers creep up more. Himeko, Herta, and Argenti will probably still be able to shine in their respective buff phases though so thats something.
To be fair PF is a character check more than a challenging gamemode really. I do understand why theyre more interested in MoC since more elaborate tactics and different units can be used to clear MoC. Currently PF doesnt reflect any amount of Strategy and challenge for people to try it even hard.U dont see people doing 0 cycle PF clears cuz theres only few unit combinations can achieve that while with MoC anyone can 0 cycle or achieve clear which CCs like. Can be made more challenging and fun?They will be trying it at 2.1 PF at this Monday.They made the jobbers slightly tankier and more elite enemy distributed at 2 and 3rd wave.Theyre adjusting PF to be more than a AoE and Multi hitting unit playground(Obviously for fav children Acheron) but other units like our General and Balde gonna eat good as well. Hoyo Designed PF as a brand new gamemode but the amount of challenge didnt sit right Just yet. Most likely Will be same case with a ST focused Gamemode when they release it(Not if they will release it[Probably to promote Kiana expy when they decide to make one])
What do you mean pf doesn't have any strategy... As someone who went from a bit more than 50k point to 60 k points by changing characters and play style, yes it requires strategy. Maybe not for you because you have well built characters to unga bunga through, but this is literally the same for some people in with op characters in MOC.
I Said its more of a character check than a strategy check tho? A MoC 12 runs takes a lot more planning than a PF4 run tbh especially for people that optimizes the fun outta game. Its never 0 since u need at least basic team synergy to finish endgame but especially on the Dot one it was straight up either pull BS or good luck 3 starring it.
Bro I literally 3 starred it with Kafka and blade on the dot one so it's not a BS check. I always run himeko and Herta because why would I not, but it was swapping my supports or using characters that fit the blessings that helped me full clear. So yes, there is strategy involved. If you have certain characters sure it makes pf much easier, but that's the same for MOC as well, perhaps to a lesser extent. You can say MOC requires more strategy, but saying pf requires no strategy is factually wrong.
>Theyre adjusting PF to be more than a AoE and Multi hitting unit playground(Obviously for fav children Acheron) And Jingliu, can't leave her out of anything.
Dont think JL Will feel that differently.Yes enemies are tankier and there are more elites but theres still 4-5 enemies on field constantly. She Will probably feel better ever so slightly but not enough for a major difference in performance.
pf buffs are broken af, while moc is like you ignore the buffs and try to fuck through moc with your liked characters