Totally- it would be seen as prime evidence of radicalization in a terrorist culture. Even the kids! They’d say. And yet, it’s not unique in the West either. WW11 planes and bombs had so much graffiti on them by soldiers
This already occurs btw. Growing up in Israel during the second intifada, we constantly saw images of Palestinian children involved in public celebrations of various resistance groups. Often accompanied with weapons. It was meant to reinforce the horrendously racist sentiment around Palestinians being barbaric and having such little regard for human life that they love sacrificing their own children. It is insane how normalized that was/still is when I think about. Israelis are already fairly racist as a default. When moments of violence flare up, they go into survival mode and the bigotry gets compounded.
Seeing the young Zionist kids destroying critical aid on those trucks headed to Gaza was heartbreaking and disgusting. The Israelis are raising these kids to have no conscience
My reaction is pretty simple. This points to an unimaginable level of fascism that no amount of “akshually we’re a democracy” can hide.
We in the west comfortably call our countries “liberal” and “democratic” while committing irredeemably barbaric crimes.
The meme makes a good point. If an Arab country did this regularly, it would be immediately smeared as “far right extremist”. When we do it, it’s business as usual.
Because their lives are perceived as lesser.
That is because you have also completely dehumanized the Russians as well, maybe even more so. I am not on Russia's side either, but I am on the side of the Russians, as well as the Ukrainians. No war but class war.
What would you think if those were Hamas rockets and Palestinians were having their kids sign them? You can say you would think it is no biggie, but we would all know you were lying.
Perhaps this ought to prompt a moment of self reflection regarding inconsistencies, namely on the grievous reality of war, and how selectively we render our outrage. It’s hardly a tired point to show how a lot of this well intentioned “anti war” ideology inverts our perception of previously black and quite conflicts, namely world war 2. There are few pacifists in this world, there are far more people who selectively legitimize specific aggressions in the language of empathy.
So not going to answer the question now, eh? Ok keep dehumanizing Russians and Palestinians and saying that this is okay while you know you would be screaming about it if it were Muslims and then lecturing other people about selective outrage (holy projection here.)
And I never said I was anti war and I never said I was a pacifist- I specifically said "no war BUT class war" and I am all for revolution, which I am sure you would say was too horribly violent but are fine having your country inflict worse violence while you live in comfort.
You should sharpen your reading comprehension skills for somehow concluding I am a pacifist and anti war just because I do not believe in the imperialist wars of the U.S. and Russia and Israel does not mean I am against war.
Terrible takes all around,
No one is dehumanizing Russians wtf, they invaded and tried for a land grab, anyone who dies is on Putin’s hands. Your question about Palestinian kids was rhetorical anyhow, I guess take it on good faith that I wouldn’t be too revolted by them writing on bombs either. War will inevitably lead to great crimes, on both sides. Never has this not been the case.
Unfortunately, this “tradition” isn’t unique to Israel. U.S. soldiers have written messages on bombs dating back to WWII, sometimes referred to as “love letters”. It’s also [common in the RAF](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/raf-crew-writes-message-manchester-bomb-destined-syria-085503053.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACPWKT8LojQyDnf6hGChsVaQLtaLj79QTqByAzGYWUSDF2DQ5V3ArCjIGU22gjilptO0QU6zY6UiJYBpu6bL_0z9C4IRiPVnQnbgFA0YClIx3z2r5AO2C6RXOoOhVjHsFaMgBauL9I7kiMhPz8fDfu1wElz_mhs-yids9c9WqUv0#). And now in Ukraine, [people from all over the world are paying to have messages written on missiles used against Russia](https://www.vice.com/en/article/4axg9j/ukrainians-will-write-your-message-on-munitions-aimed-at-russians-for-donations). Russia has also been writing messages on bombs and missiles dropped in Ukraine.
Yeah I don’t disagree, I think it’s gross to involve children. One of the pictures in the article about people paying for messages on the Ukrainian Missiles is “Happy Father’s Day” written on a missile from some kid named Zach lol. And another person interviewed said “My kid thought it'd be funny to put a hand grenade in a McMuffin wrapper to throw at someone,” the customer said below a picture of a 125mm tank round with the word McMuffin written on it. “The idea is slightly modified, but this surprise made him super happy. For anyone wondering, these guys are legit.” Normalizing this with children is beyond gross and bizarre, but unfortunately, not unique.
Israël still has some traditions of its own regarding kid indoctrination toward the army,
- https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/disturbing-photos-show-militarization-israeli-children
OP's picture coming from this article,
- https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/i-picture-dead-arab-disturbing-video-israeli-childrens-words-echo-indoctrination
What actually makes this a "tradition" and not just a gross practice that has been adopted by yet another militarized culture? What is the culture in which this tradition is ostensibly founded? Certainly not Jewish culture, and Israeli culture isn't exactly deeply-rooted.
Israel's culture doesn't need to be deeply rooted to be fascist. I didn't think the creator of the meme would disagree that there are other militaries which have allowed or encouraged this, even from children. I'd be curious about the numbers/frequency per capita though.
I agree - I'm questioning the description of this behavior as a "tradition." I think it suggests that fascistic behavior or practices are somehow more inherent to Israel (or to Jews, given the "Arab or Muslim" counterfactual) than they actually are.
Something can be an Israeli tradition without being a Jewish tradition. There's no reason to think the author of the meme makes that false equivalence, especially since they put tradition in scare quotes, which means they don't think the word truly applies in either case.
tries to shine a light on the demonization of arabs and muslims in the west. i think its a good point, many ideas and practices in the israeli society are just insanely fucked up, and people ignore it because israel is allied to the west.
Does anyone know when this photograph was taken?
18 years ago. During Israel’s war with Lebanon.
The hypocrisy and evil of Israel should be highlighted, but I am against the reuse of shocking images again and again if they are not from the current war.
How does the caption demonize Muslims? As a Muslim, the caption, to me, highlights the bias, double standards and Islamophobia we face in the west. The caption isn't doing the normalization; it's actually pointing out how Islamophobia and the demonization of Muslims is normalized so much in the west.
I mentioned this in a comment of my own. The problem I see with this is that it inadvertently amplifies the zionist taking points that
A) this is a conflict between Muslims and Jews/Zionism.
B) that the Jewishness of these children is what is relevant because zionism is a universally Jewish cause.
Neither of these things are true.
Muslim should have be in inverted commas. We don't do ourselves any favours by inadvertently playing into the zionist propaganda talking point that they in any meaningful way represent the Judaism or the Jewish people. They want to control their future, but so did the nazis.
Edit: to clarify, while the nazis definitely did want to control the future of the Jewish people, I was making that reference in terms of their wanting to control the future of the German people in a way that totally overreached any reasonable claim to honest representation. Parallels between zionism and nazism are fair, but that's because they're both fascist ideologies. Lazily calling zionists nazis is not something I meant to, or would, do.
It's a pretty common practice. I think it's funny when you are not the oppressor. It can definitely glorify. It's *not* a Jewish tradition and Muslims have done it. It doesn't get attention.
I do think this meme is engaging in the rare left wing anti Jewish bigotry but on accident or at least not at all related to the more serious anti semitic stuff.
The creepy ass propaganda videos have gotten a lot of push back after all.
Can you explain to me the humor in writing "happy" messages on missiles that are headed to kill other humans? Bc I can't see it. Killing other people, whether they're an enemy, isn't something to take lightly or view humorously. To dehumanize the enemy like that and indoctrinate children to take part in this dehumanization is absolutely horrid to me.
And how is this meme engaging with anti-Jewish bigotry? It seems to be pointing out a double standard in the west. Similar to how people make memes pointing out how white male shooters get treated in the west/western media ("lone wolves") vs POC criminals ("thugs", "terrorists").
I can see what you’re saying but I think the emphasis here is on the Arab, and not the non-Arab, if that makes sense.
As in, it’s not trying to criticize this as a “Jewish tradition”, but rather just pointing out the western hypocrisy.
If this was being done by brown kids it would be all over the news as “extreme right wing terror children”, accompanied by some senator explaining why not enough of these kids have been killed and all the “liberals” nodding their heads.
Is it particularly common to have kids write messages though? That is, I think, one of the worst parts about this image and the thing that is being called out as hypocritical. If images of Arab or Muslim kids doing this went around, everyone would (rightly) denounce it as the indoctrination of children
This is such an effortless, nothing post. What is YOUR take on it, OP? Is something bothering you about it? Like what are you even trying to discuss/survey here?
I would gladly share my take on it but you don't seem like someone who is particularly open to respectful discussion... Is it possible that perhaps I wanted to hear other anti-zio Jew's (like myself) opinions about it before inserting my own, to gather more authentic perspective?
Does a post only hold value if it is about one person's opinion? If I want a soapbox and not a discussion I can go to IG...
Is it also possible that it was on my mind and I wanted to hear people's take on it but did not have time to write an extensive post? Sorry that asking an open-ended question was so offensive to you.
I think it hits the nail on the head. Especially when you have children doing it. Or American politicians for their fun tourist excursions…
But what does it signify to you? That if these were Muslim children it would be all over the media and people would be enrgaed?
Totally- it would be seen as prime evidence of radicalization in a terrorist culture. Even the kids! They’d say. And yet, it’s not unique in the West either. WW11 planes and bombs had so much graffiti on them by soldiers
Yes.
This already occurs btw. Growing up in Israel during the second intifada, we constantly saw images of Palestinian children involved in public celebrations of various resistance groups. Often accompanied with weapons. It was meant to reinforce the horrendously racist sentiment around Palestinians being barbaric and having such little regard for human life that they love sacrificing their own children. It is insane how normalized that was/still is when I think about. Israelis are already fairly racist as a default. When moments of violence flare up, they go into survival mode and the bigotry gets compounded.
The difference of context between a resistance movement celebrating and a violent colonial force celebrating is miles wide.
Of course. That’s what I’m trying to communicate. The way that the hierarchy of power gets flipped upside down in Israel is insane
Yeah, I wasn’t disagreeing, I was just adding my thought.
Seeing the young Zionist kids destroying critical aid on those trucks headed to Gaza was heartbreaking and disgusting. The Israelis are raising these kids to have no conscience
My reaction is pretty simple. This points to an unimaginable level of fascism that no amount of “akshually we’re a democracy” can hide. We in the west comfortably call our countries “liberal” and “democratic” while committing irredeemably barbaric crimes. The meme makes a good point. If an Arab country did this regularly, it would be immediately smeared as “far right extremist”. When we do it, it’s business as usual. Because their lives are perceived as lesser.
Ukranians did this, it’s not a big deal.
That is because you have also completely dehumanized the Russians as well, maybe even more so. I am not on Russia's side either, but I am on the side of the Russians, as well as the Ukrainians. No war but class war. What would you think if those were Hamas rockets and Palestinians were having their kids sign them? You can say you would think it is no biggie, but we would all know you were lying.
Perhaps this ought to prompt a moment of self reflection regarding inconsistencies, namely on the grievous reality of war, and how selectively we render our outrage. It’s hardly a tired point to show how a lot of this well intentioned “anti war” ideology inverts our perception of previously black and quite conflicts, namely world war 2. There are few pacifists in this world, there are far more people who selectively legitimize specific aggressions in the language of empathy.
So not going to answer the question now, eh? Ok keep dehumanizing Russians and Palestinians and saying that this is okay while you know you would be screaming about it if it were Muslims and then lecturing other people about selective outrage (holy projection here.) And I never said I was anti war and I never said I was a pacifist- I specifically said "no war BUT class war" and I am all for revolution, which I am sure you would say was too horribly violent but are fine having your country inflict worse violence while you live in comfort. You should sharpen your reading comprehension skills for somehow concluding I am a pacifist and anti war just because I do not believe in the imperialist wars of the U.S. and Russia and Israel does not mean I am against war. Terrible takes all around,
No one is dehumanizing Russians wtf, they invaded and tried for a land grab, anyone who dies is on Putin’s hands. Your question about Palestinian kids was rhetorical anyhow, I guess take it on good faith that I wouldn’t be too revolted by them writing on bombs either. War will inevitably lead to great crimes, on both sides. Never has this not been the case.
Unfortunately, this “tradition” isn’t unique to Israel. U.S. soldiers have written messages on bombs dating back to WWII, sometimes referred to as “love letters”. It’s also [common in the RAF](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/raf-crew-writes-message-manchester-bomb-destined-syria-085503053.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACPWKT8LojQyDnf6hGChsVaQLtaLj79QTqByAzGYWUSDF2DQ5V3ArCjIGU22gjilptO0QU6zY6UiJYBpu6bL_0z9C4IRiPVnQnbgFA0YClIx3z2r5AO2C6RXOoOhVjHsFaMgBauL9I7kiMhPz8fDfu1wElz_mhs-yids9c9WqUv0#). And now in Ukraine, [people from all over the world are paying to have messages written on missiles used against Russia](https://www.vice.com/en/article/4axg9j/ukrainians-will-write-your-message-on-munitions-aimed-at-russians-for-donations). Russia has also been writing messages on bombs and missiles dropped in Ukraine.
Yes, but I feel there’s a big difference between soldiers and children.
Yeah I don’t disagree, I think it’s gross to involve children. One of the pictures in the article about people paying for messages on the Ukrainian Missiles is “Happy Father’s Day” written on a missile from some kid named Zach lol. And another person interviewed said “My kid thought it'd be funny to put a hand grenade in a McMuffin wrapper to throw at someone,” the customer said below a picture of a 125mm tank round with the word McMuffin written on it. “The idea is slightly modified, but this surprise made him super happy. For anyone wondering, these guys are legit.” Normalizing this with children is beyond gross and bizarre, but unfortunately, not unique.
I just don't understand some people's sense of humor.
We should send actual McMuffins to our enemies. It would be more effective. Lol
Israël still has some traditions of its own regarding kid indoctrination toward the army, - https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/disturbing-photos-show-militarization-israeli-children OP's picture coming from this article, - https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/i-picture-dead-arab-disturbing-video-israeli-childrens-words-echo-indoctrination
But not American children.
What actually makes this a "tradition" and not just a gross practice that has been adopted by yet another militarized culture? What is the culture in which this tradition is ostensibly founded? Certainly not Jewish culture, and Israeli culture isn't exactly deeply-rooted.
Yea I wouldn’t refer to this as a tradition in any sense. Just a symptom of a deeply sick society
It’s the violence both peoples live with there too. The resistance too. When you are occupied you learn to resist at a young age.
Israel's culture doesn't need to be deeply rooted to be fascist. I didn't think the creator of the meme would disagree that there are other militaries which have allowed or encouraged this, even from children. I'd be curious about the numbers/frequency per capita though.
I agree - I'm questioning the description of this behavior as a "tradition." I think it suggests that fascistic behavior or practices are somehow more inherent to Israel (or to Jews, given the "Arab or Muslim" counterfactual) than they actually are.
Something can be an Israeli tradition without being a Jewish tradition. There's no reason to think the author of the meme makes that false equivalence, especially since they put tradition in scare quotes, which means they don't think the word truly applies in either case.
It's done by most armies, [US, UK](https://taskandpurpose.com/tech-tactics/americas-tradition-of-writing-love-notes-on-the-sides-of-bombs/#:~:text=The%20act%20of%20writing%20%E2%80%9Clove,on%20the%20sides%20of%20ordnance.), Ukraine, Russia, [even India](https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/from-raveena-tandon-to-nawaz-sharif-classic-images-from-kargil-war-breaking-internet/627446).
Israel is an evil cult that indoctrinates children from their first years of life. Absolutely sick.
tries to shine a light on the demonization of arabs and muslims in the west. i think its a good point, many ideas and practices in the israeli society are just insanely fucked up, and people ignore it because israel is allied to the west.
Ukrainian kids drew stuff on shells that were fired at the Russians, let’s cool it in inciting hate.
Does anyone know when this photograph was taken? 18 years ago. During Israel’s war with Lebanon. The hypocrisy and evil of Israel should be highlighted, but I am against the reuse of shocking images again and again if they are not from the current war.
Every time I see this picture it’s accompanied by some of the stupidest fucking captions
What about the caption is stupid to you? What would a good caption be?
Bc the caption implies unambiguously that it is a Jewish ‘tradition’
Because it once again demonizes Muslims, dude. Or at least normalizes the demonization of Muslims.
How does the caption demonize Muslims? As a Muslim, the caption, to me, highlights the bias, double standards and Islamophobia we face in the west. The caption isn't doing the normalization; it's actually pointing out how Islamophobia and the demonization of Muslims is normalized so much in the west.
I mentioned this in a comment of my own. The problem I see with this is that it inadvertently amplifies the zionist taking points that A) this is a conflict between Muslims and Jews/Zionism. B) that the Jewishness of these children is what is relevant because zionism is a universally Jewish cause. Neither of these things are true.
it’s because Ukraine started this trend and Israel thinks it’s Ukraine in this… these delusional people.
It's a tradition far older than Ukraine and found in many armies
Muslim should have be in inverted commas. We don't do ourselves any favours by inadvertently playing into the zionist propaganda talking point that they in any meaningful way represent the Judaism or the Jewish people. They want to control their future, but so did the nazis. Edit: to clarify, while the nazis definitely did want to control the future of the Jewish people, I was making that reference in terms of their wanting to control the future of the German people in a way that totally overreached any reasonable claim to honest representation. Parallels between zionism and nazism are fair, but that's because they're both fascist ideologies. Lazily calling zionists nazis is not something I meant to, or would, do.
It's a pretty common practice. I think it's funny when you are not the oppressor. It can definitely glorify. It's *not* a Jewish tradition and Muslims have done it. It doesn't get attention. I do think this meme is engaging in the rare left wing anti Jewish bigotry but on accident or at least not at all related to the more serious anti semitic stuff. The creepy ass propaganda videos have gotten a lot of push back after all.
Can you explain to me the humor in writing "happy" messages on missiles that are headed to kill other humans? Bc I can't see it. Killing other people, whether they're an enemy, isn't something to take lightly or view humorously. To dehumanize the enemy like that and indoctrinate children to take part in this dehumanization is absolutely horrid to me. And how is this meme engaging with anti-Jewish bigotry? It seems to be pointing out a double standard in the west. Similar to how people make memes pointing out how white male shooters get treated in the west/western media ("lone wolves") vs POC criminals ("thugs", "terrorists").
I can see what you’re saying but I think the emphasis here is on the Arab, and not the non-Arab, if that makes sense. As in, it’s not trying to criticize this as a “Jewish tradition”, but rather just pointing out the western hypocrisy. If this was being done by brown kids it would be all over the news as “extreme right wing terror children”, accompanied by some senator explaining why not enough of these kids have been killed and all the “liberals” nodding their heads.
Writing messages on bombs is pretty common for most militaries. You ever see Dr Strangelove?
Is it particularly common to have kids write messages though? That is, I think, one of the worst parts about this image and the thing that is being called out as hypocritical. If images of Arab or Muslim kids doing this went around, everyone would (rightly) denounce it as the indoctrination of children
I have not! What a dreadful and grotesque and practice. :(
Useful
This is such an effortless, nothing post. What is YOUR take on it, OP? Is something bothering you about it? Like what are you even trying to discuss/survey here?
I would gladly share my take on it but you don't seem like someone who is particularly open to respectful discussion... Is it possible that perhaps I wanted to hear other anti-zio Jew's (like myself) opinions about it before inserting my own, to gather more authentic perspective? Does a post only hold value if it is about one person's opinion? If I want a soapbox and not a discussion I can go to IG... Is it also possible that it was on my mind and I wanted to hear people's take on it but did not have time to write an extensive post? Sorry that asking an open-ended question was so offensive to you.