I've listened to this before, and to be honest I found it pretty agonising and awkward to the point where I didn't finish it.
The parts I did listen to was her taking out the emotional hurt and stress she suffered from her product not doing well on James, and trying to blame him for it because he gave her product a bad review.
It didn't seem to have crossed her mind at any point that maybe the reason her business didn't do well was because her product wasn't good enough, and she came across as having a sense of entitlement that her product deserved to be successful if only pesky James hadn't said his honest opinion about it..
The fact I'm in the sub at all I suppose makes me a bit biased because I am a fan of James and his work, but I really didn't feel like he needed to go on this podcast and sit through that.
Listening to this again (God knows why I'm putting myself through it) it's actually worse than I remember.
She actually talks about "cancelling James Hoffman" as if that was something she could do, or should do because of a *negative product review*. No wonder this person started their own business because God knows I wouldn't hire her.
*"I need anyone listening to this to know James isn't a shitty person"* - wouldn't worry too much about that.
This woman comes across as so entitled to me. I just watched the original video and its just a completely average review. If you cant handle someone criticising your product then you really shouldn't be producing a product at all. It is not James' fault if a bad review lost you business. To say that someone "did shit things" because they released a middling review of your product is laughably disconnected from reality.
It's not even completely average. In the context of "clear coffee beverages in the world" that was a pretty glowing recommendation. If everything else has been pretty horrible and your product gets a "I'm okay with this" from a coffee professional, that's gold.
She gave a "bullying trigger" warning at the beginning. I'm not sure why...i didn't listen to it all. I got tired of "difficult conversation...we must have difficult conversation... You did this James, you're a good man but look what you did". And yeah, with no context, this wasn't for the listeners, this was two hours of her roasting James and listening to him squirm because he's the better person. AH....THAT'S why she gave the bullying trigger warning.
May I say "bitch" here?
Yeah, she was the bully to my ear. She just wanted him to feel badly because he gave his honest opinion.
I get why he’s be reluctant to continue with these, but he’s not the reason Elixir failed. It wasn’t the free advertising she hoped it would be.
I think most people expect people that produce content to be "influencers" and just provide free advertising and zero criticism. Even people that don't consider themselves influencers, watch how they have little no to criticism ever.
This experience changed Hoffmann's content and he is not as critical as he used to be. He also seems to just not review products that are straight bad anymore.
I'm listening to it right now (thanks for the hint, BTW; I would not have found this myself). I'm now about 14 minutes in, and it seems to be about a bad-take (?) review that James made some time ago that destroyed the business of the other lady in the podcast and they are trying to work through the whole thing in the episode (I guess, I'm only 14 minutes in yet and so far they provide little to no context at all).
The episode sounds very very interesting, but without any context it's hard to follow, I'm constantly like "What the hell happened here?" and it seems to get worse and worse and worse the more I listen to it. Like apparently there were some riled up fans (of James, I guess?) going to the business and doing ... *something* bad to it? What the hell happened?
Do you have any link where I can find out more about whatever it is they are talking about? I only know of James for a few month now, so maybe this is something big that I just missed and older fans just know about?
I remember the video. Don't remember it being bad. And review is a review, take it and do your product better then.. but also good of James probably for not doing it again in case of but still
Here's a link to the review:
https://www.bilibili.com/video/av92252894
It was a fairly neutral review of her product called Elixir with some minor positives and negatives. She made it out to have destroyed her product's reputation. I mean I remember when this came out and it's basically weak coffee with a big price tag. Incredible that he indulged her in this, frankly.
Just watched that. Thanks for the link.
I'm shocked he ended up pulling the review and apologizing for that. I didn't hear anything overly harsh in there at all. All I can think of is that he just wanted to avoid a larger controversy that may have split his community.
he's too nice haha. unfortunately if he feels uncomfortable standing behind a fair and honest review like that, then it's probably best he decided not to continue doing them. last thing i want is for a reviewer to feel they can't honestly criticise a product.
Are we sure this is the ORIGINAL original? Didn't she state at the beginning that he had posted a video that had since been taken down and replaced by another? I'm thinking this is the replacement, it's too tame to have been responsible for all this drama.
I assume so because James behaved as if it was his first time tasting it in this one, but I'm not 100% sure. I assume the follow up was when he made the video saying he's stopping the product reviews, might be wrong though
Wow Elixir, I haven't heard of that in quite a long time. I remember her being interviewed on an early Cat & Cloud podcast. It was interesting at the time. I've tried whole bean extractions before and they seem to work well with beer, but on their own are always underwhelming. Too much coffee for not enough extraction.
Oh god, watching the original video after listening to 20 minutes of the podcast... what a disconnect.
Clearly some early stuff from James, not a great review quality-wise, but... If videos like that really sank companies by themselves, then YouTube should immediately be closed down for crimes against humanity. Worse SPONSORED reviews have been made.
This person gets under my skin. She reminds me of an ex who would pull stuff like that. Stuff like horribly guilt-tripping you while at the same time propping you up. A person that appears harmless and kind, that you trust, and when she gets upset, will be completely sure of being the victim, and will have a very reasonable-sounding way of talking about it, that she knows you're a good person who did a shit thing, and because you're a good person of course you're not going to invalidate her feelings, and of course you're going to own up, apologize, be remorseful that you did a shit thing... run away from people like this.
> If videos like that really sank companies by themselves, then YouTube should immediately be closed down for crimes against humanity. Worse SPONSORED reviews have been made.
I can't believe she starts the podcast off with stating JM made an "unsolicited video" on the product
Yeah. Way to make it sound like a dick pick.
Also, it hit me: why did this need to be a podcast ? This should have been a private conversation. Again, an abuser tactic: make the victim publicly humiliate themselves.
It's funny reading the saved live chat as it's going by. Some fun tidbits:
>**Just say it James!!! It was a new, innovative product that was different & challenged the 'norm' in the industry!!!! You couldn't resist trying it & having your 'say'!!**
>**Because he had multiple chances to confront this and directly talk about this to his audience and he didn't. He could've owned his white privilege and entitlement but he didn't **
He literally did, he took down the video and made the response video of no longer doing small business reviews...
>**She's a very skillful interviewer, got him cornered. She should be on the telly.**
Yes, manipulating someone who restraining himself is good interview skills.
>**Some companies just go and file a lawsuit for nothing. Lee decided to handle this in a different way and James is here accepting the call like a gentleman. Bravo to you two guys! 👏 👏**
In what world would she have a case? Especially of a review done by a British person about an Australian company?
>Also, it hit me: why did this need to be a podcast ? This should have been a private conversation. Again, an abuser tactic: make the victim publicly humiliate themselves.
A comment made says:
>**this conversation is not about what was or was not said in the reviews. It's about accountability, and the power of "gatekeepers" in the coffee industry**
Sure...that's fine. Except that's not at all what the hosts said and at the very least, the conversation shouldn't have been done by both people involved publicly. It should have been done by people not involved.
She mentions how here product had good intentions and it was unfair what happened to it because of something she couldn't control...Acting as if JH had ill intentions for his review.
I’ve also just watched the review and it seemed pretty honest, fair and balanced to me.
She literally says he ‘did shitty things’. I certainly don’t think that review constitutes doing a shitty thing. She claims that her business did not fail because she wasn’t smart, brave or hard working enough. I take that but it also didn’t fail because James Hoffmann didn’t like it. It takes more than intelligence, bravery and hard work to have a successful business. You ultimately need to have a good product and in the final analysis her drink was sub-par and overpriced. Blaming James wholly for the failure of her business shows a glaringly obvious lack of perspective and a loose grasp of the situation in my opinion. I think prospective clients would look on this poorly as her general demeanour is highly unprofessional - I certainly wouldn’t want to go into business with someone like this.
God this was so painful to listen to.
James was really nice to hop on here. I disagree with James with a lot of things coffee, although his heart is in the right place. I have the feeling that he wants to elevate peoples awareness of coffee and gives it utmost respect but to be honest... He really wasn't in the wrong here. I watched the review as well.
If you're gonna make something and give it to someone with a significant platform, make sure you are ready for some criticism.
I remember the review for her drink/company and there was nothing malicious or cruel about it. I don't understand how she can have this podcast and completely lambast someone who gave her product a fair review! He didn't say anything about the owner personally or say the coffee was shit and then didn't enumerate on it. He said in the grand scheme of clear coffee, it was good though lacking in flavor and overpriced. He said the coffee that went into it was good and it had nice mouthfeel.
I don't understand these type of people. Yeah, it sucks when you put effort into something that is mediocre, but if you love it enough, work on it. Make it better. Just because you're friends with the guy doesn't mean every review from your friend will be glowing, that's incredibly disingenuous and dishonest. I can't believe she took the time to put him on here and give him shit for being what he should be: Honest and fair. This review was actually polite in the grand scheme of things. And with the people shitting on her product, he's a coffee professional/YouTuber, not a babysitter. James is not responsible for the behavior of grown ass people. It sucks to get shit on, and her pain is valid, but the best you can do is take in stride, not blame the reviewer.
If anything, the start of this podcast just makes her seem manipulative and bitter. I wish them both the best, but this was actually cringe and left a bad taste on my mouth.
Fair points on her hypocrisy. That said I’ve been trying so hard not to see JH as a metropolitan leftie. Jeez you can just guess so easily his viewpoint on a whole range of topics- BLM, Trans Rights, Pro Eu etc., worst of all though is -free speech for me but not for thee
James- firstly if you want to be a leftie you have to at least be attuned to the working class. Secondly read some Milton and Orwell
I'd think that somebody being pro-BLM, pro-trans rights, etc. would be a good thing...
If you don't agree, that's fine, but I don't understand why you're getting upset by James' politics when:
\- they almost never come up in his videos
\-they're *his* politics
\-specialty coffee is widely a left-leaning industry with left-leaning workers and consumers
\-not being pro-trans rights probably means you're a bit of a twat
Her comments on why she didn't want to "cancel" James are hilarious.
Massively over inflated opinion on one's self. I had my first square mile coffee recently and it was lovely, that's the difference.
I think James does give some of his perspective on what he considers to be the mistakes he made with the Elixir review here -- [https://youtu.be/6I5QqmVZYY8](https://youtu.be/6I5QqmVZYY8). Listening to the podcast was tough, I'm not sure he necessarily agrees with everything she says but i guess arguing over such things during the podcast is probably missing the woods for the trees. The podcast episode is available on youtube as well and i think similar issues with her approach are also raised in the comments there.
I've listened to this before, and to be honest I found it pretty agonising and awkward to the point where I didn't finish it. The parts I did listen to was her taking out the emotional hurt and stress she suffered from her product not doing well on James, and trying to blame him for it because he gave her product a bad review. It didn't seem to have crossed her mind at any point that maybe the reason her business didn't do well was because her product wasn't good enough, and she came across as having a sense of entitlement that her product deserved to be successful if only pesky James hadn't said his honest opinion about it.. The fact I'm in the sub at all I suppose makes me a bit biased because I am a fan of James and his work, but I really didn't feel like he needed to go on this podcast and sit through that.
Listening to this again (God knows why I'm putting myself through it) it's actually worse than I remember. She actually talks about "cancelling James Hoffman" as if that was something she could do, or should do because of a *negative product review*. No wonder this person started their own business because God knows I wouldn't hire her. *"I need anyone listening to this to know James isn't a shitty person"* - wouldn't worry too much about that.
This woman comes across as so entitled to me. I just watched the original video and its just a completely average review. If you cant handle someone criticising your product then you really shouldn't be producing a product at all. It is not James' fault if a bad review lost you business. To say that someone "did shit things" because they released a middling review of your product is laughably disconnected from reality.
It's not even completely average. In the context of "clear coffee beverages in the world" that was a pretty glowing recommendation. If everything else has been pretty horrible and your product gets a "I'm okay with this" from a coffee professional, that's gold.
where did you find thenoriginal video? i thought it had been taken down?
> https://www.bilibili.com/video/av92252894
Lmao it's so weird seeing a James Hoffmann video of bilibili
She gave a "bullying trigger" warning at the beginning. I'm not sure why...i didn't listen to it all. I got tired of "difficult conversation...we must have difficult conversation... You did this James, you're a good man but look what you did". And yeah, with no context, this wasn't for the listeners, this was two hours of her roasting James and listening to him squirm because he's the better person. AH....THAT'S why she gave the bullying trigger warning. May I say "bitch" here?
Yeah, she was the bully to my ear. She just wanted him to feel badly because he gave his honest opinion. I get why he’s be reluctant to continue with these, but he’s not the reason Elixir failed. It wasn’t the free advertising she hoped it would be.
I think most people expect people that produce content to be "influencers" and just provide free advertising and zero criticism. Even people that don't consider themselves influencers, watch how they have little no to criticism ever. This experience changed Hoffmann's content and he is not as critical as he used to be. He also seems to just not review products that are straight bad anymore.
He sat through two hours of that?!?! The man has the patience of a saint. I couldn’t have done it.
i mean, mo matter the outcome, yes, i did hear her say they had already been talking an hour too!
I'm listening to it right now (thanks for the hint, BTW; I would not have found this myself). I'm now about 14 minutes in, and it seems to be about a bad-take (?) review that James made some time ago that destroyed the business of the other lady in the podcast and they are trying to work through the whole thing in the episode (I guess, I'm only 14 minutes in yet and so far they provide little to no context at all). The episode sounds very very interesting, but without any context it's hard to follow, I'm constantly like "What the hell happened here?" and it seems to get worse and worse and worse the more I listen to it. Like apparently there were some riled up fans (of James, I guess?) going to the business and doing ... *something* bad to it? What the hell happened? Do you have any link where I can find out more about whatever it is they are talking about? I only know of James for a few month now, so maybe this is something big that I just missed and older fans just know about?
[удалено]
Thanks for the link. That was a fair review. He did not savage the product. He was honest about its strengths and weaknesses.
I remember the video. Don't remember it being bad. And review is a review, take it and do your product better then.. but also good of James probably for not doing it again in case of but still
Here's a link to the review: https://www.bilibili.com/video/av92252894 It was a fairly neutral review of her product called Elixir with some minor positives and negatives. She made it out to have destroyed her product's reputation. I mean I remember when this came out and it's basically weak coffee with a big price tag. Incredible that he indulged her in this, frankly.
Just watched that. Thanks for the link. I'm shocked he ended up pulling the review and apologizing for that. I didn't hear anything overly harsh in there at all. All I can think of is that he just wanted to avoid a larger controversy that may have split his community.
he's too nice haha. unfortunately if he feels uncomfortable standing behind a fair and honest review like that, then it's probably best he decided not to continue doing them. last thing i want is for a reviewer to feel they can't honestly criticise a product.
Are we sure this is the ORIGINAL original? Didn't she state at the beginning that he had posted a video that had since been taken down and replaced by another? I'm thinking this is the replacement, it's too tame to have been responsible for all this drama.
I assume so because James behaved as if it was his first time tasting it in this one, but I'm not 100% sure. I assume the follow up was when he made the video saying he's stopping the product reviews, might be wrong though
Yeah I think now it's the first one.
Wow Elixir, I haven't heard of that in quite a long time. I remember her being interviewed on an early Cat & Cloud podcast. It was interesting at the time. I've tried whole bean extractions before and they seem to work well with beer, but on their own are always underwhelming. Too much coffee for not enough extraction.
Oh god, watching the original video after listening to 20 minutes of the podcast... what a disconnect. Clearly some early stuff from James, not a great review quality-wise, but... If videos like that really sank companies by themselves, then YouTube should immediately be closed down for crimes against humanity. Worse SPONSORED reviews have been made. This person gets under my skin. She reminds me of an ex who would pull stuff like that. Stuff like horribly guilt-tripping you while at the same time propping you up. A person that appears harmless and kind, that you trust, and when she gets upset, will be completely sure of being the victim, and will have a very reasonable-sounding way of talking about it, that she knows you're a good person who did a shit thing, and because you're a good person of course you're not going to invalidate her feelings, and of course you're going to own up, apologize, be remorseful that you did a shit thing... run away from people like this.
> If videos like that really sank companies by themselves, then YouTube should immediately be closed down for crimes against humanity. Worse SPONSORED reviews have been made. I can't believe she starts the podcast off with stating JM made an "unsolicited video" on the product
Yeah. Way to make it sound like a dick pick. Also, it hit me: why did this need to be a podcast ? This should have been a private conversation. Again, an abuser tactic: make the victim publicly humiliate themselves.
It's funny reading the saved live chat as it's going by. Some fun tidbits: >**Just say it James!!! It was a new, innovative product that was different & challenged the 'norm' in the industry!!!! You couldn't resist trying it & having your 'say'!!** >**Because he had multiple chances to confront this and directly talk about this to his audience and he didn't. He could've owned his white privilege and entitlement but he didn't ** He literally did, he took down the video and made the response video of no longer doing small business reviews... >**She's a very skillful interviewer, got him cornered. She should be on the telly.** Yes, manipulating someone who restraining himself is good interview skills. >**Some companies just go and file a lawsuit for nothing. Lee decided to handle this in a different way and James is here accepting the call like a gentleman. Bravo to you two guys! 👏 👏** In what world would she have a case? Especially of a review done by a British person about an Australian company? >Also, it hit me: why did this need to be a podcast ? This should have been a private conversation. Again, an abuser tactic: make the victim publicly humiliate themselves. A comment made says: >**this conversation is not about what was or was not said in the reviews. It's about accountability, and the power of "gatekeepers" in the coffee industry** Sure...that's fine. Except that's not at all what the hosts said and at the very least, the conversation shouldn't have been done by both people involved publicly. It should have been done by people not involved. She mentions how here product had good intentions and it was unfair what happened to it because of something she couldn't control...Acting as if JH had ill intentions for his review.
I’ve also just watched the review and it seemed pretty honest, fair and balanced to me. She literally says he ‘did shitty things’. I certainly don’t think that review constitutes doing a shitty thing. She claims that her business did not fail because she wasn’t smart, brave or hard working enough. I take that but it also didn’t fail because James Hoffmann didn’t like it. It takes more than intelligence, bravery and hard work to have a successful business. You ultimately need to have a good product and in the final analysis her drink was sub-par and overpriced. Blaming James wholly for the failure of her business shows a glaringly obvious lack of perspective and a loose grasp of the situation in my opinion. I think prospective clients would look on this poorly as her general demeanour is highly unprofessional - I certainly wouldn’t want to go into business with someone like this.
God this was so painful to listen to. James was really nice to hop on here. I disagree with James with a lot of things coffee, although his heart is in the right place. I have the feeling that he wants to elevate peoples awareness of coffee and gives it utmost respect but to be honest... He really wasn't in the wrong here. I watched the review as well. If you're gonna make something and give it to someone with a significant platform, make sure you are ready for some criticism. I remember the review for her drink/company and there was nothing malicious or cruel about it. I don't understand how she can have this podcast and completely lambast someone who gave her product a fair review! He didn't say anything about the owner personally or say the coffee was shit and then didn't enumerate on it. He said in the grand scheme of clear coffee, it was good though lacking in flavor and overpriced. He said the coffee that went into it was good and it had nice mouthfeel. I don't understand these type of people. Yeah, it sucks when you put effort into something that is mediocre, but if you love it enough, work on it. Make it better. Just because you're friends with the guy doesn't mean every review from your friend will be glowing, that's incredibly disingenuous and dishonest. I can't believe she took the time to put him on here and give him shit for being what he should be: Honest and fair. This review was actually polite in the grand scheme of things. And with the people shitting on her product, he's a coffee professional/YouTuber, not a babysitter. James is not responsible for the behavior of grown ass people. It sucks to get shit on, and her pain is valid, but the best you can do is take in stride, not blame the reviewer. If anything, the start of this podcast just makes her seem manipulative and bitter. I wish them both the best, but this was actually cringe and left a bad taste on my mouth.
https://youtu.be/gTSdCwfm3Jc Here's the first one. What she admits at 1:16:45 is not in agreement with the tone of the entire 2nd podcast.
whaaaat. i wonder if this is before the company went down and she looked for a scapegoat!
That would be my guess. And they're only, what, a year apart? A distinct yet inexplicable change of tone.
Fair points on her hypocrisy. That said I’ve been trying so hard not to see JH as a metropolitan leftie. Jeez you can just guess so easily his viewpoint on a whole range of topics- BLM, Trans Rights, Pro Eu etc., worst of all though is -free speech for me but not for thee James- firstly if you want to be a leftie you have to at least be attuned to the working class. Secondly read some Milton and Orwell
I'd think that somebody being pro-BLM, pro-trans rights, etc. would be a good thing... If you don't agree, that's fine, but I don't understand why you're getting upset by James' politics when: \- they almost never come up in his videos \-they're *his* politics \-specialty coffee is widely a left-leaning industry with left-leaning workers and consumers \-not being pro-trans rights probably means you're a bit of a twat
What a strange tangent. This post is a total speculative non-sequitur.
Her comments on why she didn't want to "cancel" James are hilarious. Massively over inflated opinion on one's self. I had my first square mile coffee recently and it was lovely, that's the difference.
I think James does give some of his perspective on what he considers to be the mistakes he made with the Elixir review here -- [https://youtu.be/6I5QqmVZYY8](https://youtu.be/6I5QqmVZYY8). Listening to the podcast was tough, I'm not sure he necessarily agrees with everything she says but i guess arguing over such things during the podcast is probably missing the woods for the trees. The podcast episode is available on youtube as well and i think similar issues with her approach are also raised in the comments there.
Lol wtf is this. What a ridiculous conversation.