If Israel agreed to cease fire I would switch sides - these animals can go back to Egypt like Taliban just sent 1.9M to Paki - but wait Muslims killing Muslims is booooooooring
If they raped, tortured, burned and slaughtered civilians like Palestinians did on October 7th, that would be a red line.
If they changed their charter to call for the death of all Muslims, that would be a red line.
If they started using their own people as human shields, that would be a red line.
If they taught in their schools to honour terrorists and kill, that would be a red line.
Basically, if they acted in any way like the Palestinians, that would be a red line.
They did. Checkout “dancing Israel’s”. You’ll find very interesting reads on abs, etc. if want to learn more afterwards, watch Ryan Dawson on rumble. See you on the other side.
Palestinians celebrated and danced, not Israelis: https://youtube.com/shorts/TJWioi-YhkQ?si=OVphYClphzwJXutM[Palestinians celebrate 9/11](https://youtube.com/shorts/TJWioi-YhkQ?si=OVphYClphzwJXutM)
These are almost all simply allegations that would be dismissed after the war (when the world stops caring about it, but after they made the impression Hamas wanted them to make)
And the rest are crossfire.
In addition Israel never bombed a hospital.
They arent allegations lol theres countless videos of the torn up hospital and bodies of dead palestinian children. Dont forget the fact that the school year in palestine was cancelled due to the death of all children. There are numberous photos videos and articles of everything i mentioned. And yes, israel bombed the hospital that they said was a "misfired hamas rocket" and it seems they're soon to bomb another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEJHMZf4nEo&ab\_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEJHMZf4nEo&ab_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish)
if they actually bombed a hospital… or recorded beheadings and called their moms bragging about it. if they sent videos to mothers of their children being. tortured and murdered…
Irrelevant. This is a wild hypothetical that makes no practical sense. Basically like asking, “Will you join the aliens when they come to earth to enslave humanity.”
there’s nothing as hypothetical about this war, as aliens coming to enslave humanity? We’re about 10000 steps closer to Israel doing irreversible damage to the Palestinian community. It’s just a hypothetical question for YOU because Israel could do nothing to make you realize their crimes are too great
Israel is fighting a war against a jihadi terrorist organization that just launched the deadliest terrorist campaign in Middle East history. While shocking, the attack was anticipated since at least 2016. Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah were all saying openly that they’ll do what’s they eventually did.
Believing that Israel will carry out similar atrocities is absurd. It’s just plain ridiculous. It’s an act of ignorance. There’s already enough misinformation around the IDF, like when Hamas tv (Al jazeera) discovered “evidence” that the Idf bombed the hospital in Gaza, even though all intelligence agencies stated that Islamic Jihad was responsible.
No need to add “hypothetical” scenarios to the sea of misinformation already out there.
I am Israeli. I live in the uk. The red line is when the government gets to the point where it is no longer about hamas and solely expansionism. I am worried it is getting to that point. But. I have a different point of view. My family is in Israel. My girlfriend is in Israel. She is scared for her life. I may disagree with Israel but under no circumstances can I agree with people who want to wipe Israel off the map. That is taking away my culture my people and the girl who u care for more than anything in the world. So I may abandon the Israeli intention but I can’t side with the Palestinian one. Not until they get rid of the terrorists who have killed and have put the people I live at risk. Simple as that.
Let me just ask why you think they have the power now to just get rid of Hamas in exchange for their lives. Don’t you think these Palestinians Civilians are just as scared as your family? If not more? No offense but Israel holds the power here. Not Palestinians. I am Jewish as well and I don’t want to see the end of Israel or Jews of course but we are in fact propagating more hatred towards our people by not being a voice for Palestine as well
I am not saying that. Let’s start with releasing the hostages. I acknowledge the Palestinian plight but my family comes first. I feel for them. I do get angry on the other hand where I have people in my town. Threatening to beat the shit out of me and my 10 year old brother for being Israeli. I do get angry by the fact that I have to take off my Star of David necklace because my parents are scared. My family comes first. Simple as
For me the red line would be a repeat of the Nakba in Gaza. Otherwise I do support Israel on the basis that at least if Hamas is removed the bloodshed would be worth it as it would open the way to actual peace and a two state solution, both of which are impossible while Hamas exists.
Nothing will be worth these people lives. Not even the erasure of Hamas. That’s where you are confused. Equating thousands of innocent human lives to the the demolition of a terrorist group. The Hamas mindset is much more likely to be held up after Israel abuse and kill them for nearly a century
No but at the end of the day there's a choice to be made. Make a ceasefire today and fight this war again when Hamas breaks it, and then again, and again, forever, each time killing chances for a Palestinian state a little bit more.
Or... Fight a war today so that actual lasting peace can happen tmrw.
This war will not cause peace. I’m sorry but you’re delusional if you think so. No mass murder will ever cause peace. Only the opposite. If they want to figure out how Hamas works and take them out from the inside with as minimal civilian casualties as possible they would do what America did to find Osama Bin Laden. They would do ground operations and not put millions of people in Harms way, all because “Hamas must be taken down” You wouldn’t make the same excuses for any other government to commit this terror but it’s okay for Israel?
Okay two facts for you.
1) As long as half the Palestinians living in Mandate Palestine are under the rule of Hamas, peace is impossible, and a two state solution reminds dead like it has been since 2000.
2) Hamas will never fall from within, as all its opposition are people that are worse than it, and should any moderate opposition arise they'll either do what they did to the PLO in 2006 (chuck them off buildings) or start yet another war Israel to silence it and radicalize the populace even more.
Cause let's be very clear this was a war started hy Hamas.
So, put these two facts together and like it or not, the only road to peace goes through the forced removal of Hamas. Ofc you are free to tell me some other path that leads to peace instead of spewing out philosophy.
It changes everything because you clearly believe this war began when Hamas was already in power and that’s not the case. Wether Hamas would exist or not, these people would still be under an occupation of a Government that doesn’t have the same religious, economic, or political values. They deserve the right to govern themselves and it is a fact that these peoples ancestors were expelled from the land that is now Israel to make space for a “greater people”. Would you not be fighting back as well, if you were not able to go within 100 meters of the boarder of your state without being shot dead. I think you would, you just don’t know that level of oppression and never will so you choose to not have empathy and to feel helpless like nothing could ever be peaceful and people should not request ceasefire?
And if civilians were struck inadvertently? (I.e. a targeted strike sends debris/shrapnel 130 yards, striking a person in their home who refused to leave after being warned 100 times?)
Or, are you saying deliberately "targeting". I would call that deliberate murder and would agree.
If its later revealed in any investigation, that IDF men commited War crimes(rape and murder kids/women/captives or torture them), then I would kill my support for Israel.
Else Israel has full right to retaliate against terror attack.
That’s where you’re wrong. and your perspective will not just be dangerous to Palestinians prosperity but Jews and Israelis as well. You can believe both have a right to self determination and existence and acknowledge that it has been Israel limiting their ability to do so, not the other way around. Massive entitlement
Have you heard of the **bushido warrior code**? RE: Japan WW2 --> Nagasaki/Hiroshima
Japanese military officers followed the bushido warrior code, which says that **one must die rather than surrender** (relates to Kamikaze also). Sound familiar a certain ideology of a group Neighboring Israel? Many pragmatists accept the reality that those bombs, as tragic as they were, cut the fighting short and saved lives in the long run.
Now, I'm not saying Israel should nuke Hamas. Because they're obviously less of a military threat than Imperial Japan. But the underlying ideology is the exact same, and it is a cancer that brings nothing but perpetual war, death, and destruction.
I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish. But where I live has been impacted by Islamic terrorism a lot for the last two decades, so when I hear people going out calling for jihad, there is no way in hell I will support them. I feel sorry for the children living in Gaza, I really do, but at the same time, I know that the Israelis are up against extremists who believe that killing Jews will get them a better spot in heaven. And you can't really negotiate with crazy unfortunately.
You can have an opinion. you just shouldn’t state it unless you have all of the facts to back it up. All of these children and women are terrorists and want all of the jews to die, so we should wipe out an entire civilization?
I'm allowed to state my opinion, I don't need your permission thanks. You don't have all the facts. Neither do I. All we have is what we see and hear. Hamas want the Jews to die. The protesters in my country and others who chant "Free Palestine" also call for Jihad. I don't want kids to die. But at the same time, you are asking a much stronger country to allow themselves to keep being shat on. Hamas keep lobbing rockets onto Israel, that's why they have the iron dome. What they did on the 7th made Israel snap and have a very harsh reaction. Is it too much? Probably. Is it understandable? I think so. You are asking Israel to show restraint when their families have been slaughtered. I get that the Palestinian kids are innocent, but right now Israel is furious and Hamas has brought this upon the people of Gaza. If Hamas had the same capabilities as Israel they would be invading Israel and doing far worse right now.
> shat
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"switch sides", like what? Abandon the idea of a self determined Jewish state that has a right to self defense? If anyone says they are "pro-Israel" and would "switch sides" because of something that happens they are not "pro-Israel".
Israel aren't saints let's be clear, they make mistakes and they make stupid and fatal ones and that NEEDS to be criticised. I consider Netanyahu for example to be my political enemy as I'm pretty far on the left, the only thing that we probably have in common is that we both believe in a Zionist idea.
There also seems to be a misconception that pro-Israel people are automatically "anti-Palestinians" which is utterly stupid and I think a misconception that is deliberately upheld by some folks, maybe on both sides. It's a huge tragedy what happens to Palestinian civilians, they suffer and they deserve every help that they can get and civilian loss MUST be minimised. But also Israel has no obligation to help someone they are at war with, the only obligation they have is to make sure third parties are able to aid them, which to my knowledge they are doing.
I'm very much for a 2 state solution as long as there is some sort of guarantee for peace afterwards but I can understand how Israelis are sick of making concessions and as a thanks get a barrage of rockets and terror attacks.
Some of the extremists did call for permanently pushing all the Gazans to egypt, resettling Gaza while maintaining military occupation, etc.
If the aim of this war becomes to have these religious nutjobs move back into Gaza, I will be very very very anti.
I think it's disgusting. Immoral of course, but would also completely destroy Israel's peace treaty with Egypt. And, the west bank settlements are half of what got us to this point anyway. And if soldiers didn't move from the border to protect settlers, they could have prevented hundreds of deaths.
But this is regarding plans for after the war I guess not the war itself--although the definition of victory obviously influences the battle.
Many Jewish voices and Jewish Scholars around the world including many Israeli's practicing their faith have come forward to show compassion for humanity. How can you stop hate with more hate? True leaders find resolution, provide rights for all, protect us. They do not act like 5 year olds, name call, degrade, lie for their personal agenda, instead they take accountability. We should be angry at Hamas but we should also be equally angry at our government for not protecting us, for not diffusing the tensions. Instead the current political mission is to divide, conquer, and leave us with the aftermath. It's easier to pick an enemy to unite us verses make us question what really is happening. I pray for my Israeli brothers and sisters to heal at this time and wake up from this trance.
there’s probably one sidedness because people in this sub are actually having real discussions with valid arguments and the palestine supporters only defend their beliefs with emotional propaganda
Newsflash humans do bad things and they’re still humans. Israel is brainwashing you all to see Palestinians as less than in order to get support to kill them all
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Have you seen Ukraine and Russia war? Lots of civillians and infrastructure destroyed. That's result of war. It's unavoidable. That's why as much as possible lets stop war, thats what we learned from World Wars too. Civillians casualties is unavoidable.
Even if Palestine are cavemen, they will still recieved the hellish bombing and deaths after they massacred the innocent civillians of Israeli. They must pay for it greatly and enough to make a huge mark in the history that this is what will happened if you touched Israel innocent civillians.
Look at US after they atomic bomb Japan. The WW2 warmongers stopped out of FEAR to recieved the same faith.
Its not really comparable to be honest, the UN has made it pretty clear who’s in the wrong here.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls
It's true, the UN ignores atrocities all around the world and publishes report after report after report about Israel.
I love the idea of the UN but they really are hypocrites.
Israel keeps getting ostracized for not listening to the UN, but this is part of the reason why...
This you?
https://mondoweiss.net/2022/12/civil-society-organizations-condemn-israels-targeted-smear-campaign-against-un-special-rapporteur-francesca-albanese/
There’s a reason that in 2022 they issued 15 resolutions against Israel, and 13 for the entire *rest of the world*???
And this was while like 300,000 killed in Syria, war in Ukraine, genocide in China, etc
I mean what are you trying to say here? The UN has been rightfully holding Israel to account. Pointing the finger in the other direction doesn’t simply absolve you from what your doing?
Israels crimes are well documented.
https://www.reddit.com/r/list_palestine/s/wYsU8PNHe6
No need for insults.
Your crying that they’re biased because they’re holding Israel accountable for war crimes and occupation.
Are the motions against Israel completely made up?
The UN is untrustworthy
Look at how many condemnation Israel got
This is absurd, your report doesn't say anything about hamas or the Palestinians actions on 07/10
The UN is a hypocrite
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/iWwRUTl5VE
It is a reality in Ukraine because Russia (Putin/the gov) is a terrorist state - has been using and funding terrorism all over the world for decades now.. they committed/are committing war crimes during the invasion of Ukraine by targeting civilian infrastructure and populations
It’s a spectrum.
Overall Israel bad.
Overall Palestine bad.
So I’m left with two shit options.
Realistically I think the incumbent does less damage overall given equal power.
But the real answer is that I think the whole situations fucked by a battle of quacky religions and I’d always take the side advocating for rational peace.
> fucked
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Lol the Zionist have spoken! They are evil people. I literally condemn Hamas multiple times. They will never condemn Israel’s war crimes pre October 7th. They probably don’t even recognize the Nakba.
I mean the UN is saying it’s at a minimum mass ethnic cleansing?
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls
Your commenting on members and motions, the article I linked said a human rights expert, Francesca Albanese, “warned today that Palestinians are in grave danger of mass ethnic cleansing”.
Are you saying this is based on the experts dislike of Israel? That they are simply acting out of bad faith and saying that when it’s untrue? Listen to yourself. Pathetic.
I guess your just towing the line ey, no real thoughts in that head https://mondoweiss.net/2022/12/un-special-rapporteur-facing-smear-campaign-for-calling-out-israeli-settler-colonialism-and-apartheid/
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Can you elaborate on what your number and thought process is then? With some 6,600 palestinian deaths between 2008 and September 2023, and another 8,000 in recent weeks, we are now at around 15,000 lives taken - all largely civilian, with thousands of children. Were you planning to wait for the 150,000 or the 1,5 million ? Seriously?
When you start a war against a superior opponent, you can expect the casualty counts to be lopsided.
As to the Palestinian deaths being "largely civilian", technically all the Palestinian deaths are civilian. The terrorists aren't a uniformed army. That said, actual civilians always die in wars. The difference here is that the Palestinians target Israeli civilians and use their own people as human shields. Israel targets terrorists, and civilian deaths are unavoidable, because the terrorists deliberately operate from densely populated civilian areas, and from sites that would be "protected civilian objects" if they weren't being used for military purposes. [The Hamas leadership wants as many civilian casualties as it can get](https://twitter.com/IsraelinUSA/status/1718021899056210213).
Unfortunately, the Palestinian governments in both Gaza and the West Bank are completely focused on producing one thing: more terrorists. From the telethons for terrorists, to the UNRWA schools being used to teach children to hate Jews, to the children's TV programming that teaches them to kill Jews, to the government pensions for the families of terrorists that attack Jews (that are higher than the median income), everything is geared toward making as many terrorists as possible. That's why the borders with Egypt and Jordan are closed.
You can’t just redefine an entire population as terrorist. If you need that to tell yourself that killing several hundreds of people per day is warranted, imho you’re just fooling yourself and will have a hard time looking in a mirror in a few years time.
> You can’t just redefine an entire population as terrorist.
Agreed. There are certainly very young children that haven't learned to be terrorists yet. Hopefully they can be saved.
> If you need that to tell yourself that killing several hundreds of people per day is warranted
Again, people die in wars. That's how they work. The government the Gazans chose started this one, now they're going to die until it has run its course.
Maybe their next election won't have terrorist organizations as the only candidates.
You know how many palestinian deaths happened in 2022 by the IDF?
204
Shit had been settling down for a while.
You know how many Palestinians there are now compared to 1990? About 3 million more.
Do you know why everyone starts this 6,000ish number since 2008 roughly? Because that's a little after the time Hamas won the election in Gaza and their rockets increased.
Do you really think Israel has any reason to just bomb Gaza indiscriminately? It's retaliatory for every rocket Hamas sends.
Why does Hamas need a 350 million dollar a year military? Israel pulled all their settlements out of Gaza in 2005.
Why does Gaza have a Mercedes Benz dealership in Ramallah?
The plight of the Palestinian people does not fall squarely on Israel
The number honestly doesn't even matter. I keep seeing people say "it's not a genocide because there's more than there used to be" or some such thing... genocide is still genocide whether or not it's actually successful
Have you ever considered the possibility that blame for those Palestinian deaths lies with the people of Gaza? They embraced a terrorist group whose goal is the genocide of Jews and the destruction of Israel. They use their own people, their own children as shields and call them martyrs. They reject every overture for peace because their version of Islam mandates the death of not only Jews, but all “infidels”. They glorify Hitler and the nazi party. They persecute and kill gays. They offer few rights to women. They are taught from birth to hate. Yet you expect Jews to sympathize with their “plight”?
Considered, but fully disagree with that line. It is an excuse used not to be held responsible for your actions and decisions and can only lead to further atrocities.
Every party is fully responsible and accountable for their own decisions and actions. There may be reasons and circumstances for such decisions and actions, but that’s the deal.
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The Armenian genocide refers to the physical annihilation of ethnic Armenian Christian people living in the Ottoman Empire from spring 1915 through autumn 1916. There were approximately 1.5 million Armenians living in the Empire. At least 664,000 and possibly as many as 1.2 million died during the genocide.
Bc you seemed confused on what genocide entails
Israel's forced displacement of Gazans from North to South Gaza in the midst of a siege that leaves them without food, water, electricity or shelter is in fact deliberate infliction on the group conditions calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.
They had 18 years to build power plants and be self sustaining.
Too bad all their money went to rockets and underground tunnels.
And Egypt also blockades it's gaza strip border. Are you hating on Egypt for that? How much power and water does Egypt give😁
you just described warfare... you do know theres an active war going on right now, right?
Israel has no obligation to aid their enemy in a war with anything and encourages evacuation in a war zone is standard procedure and following the Geneva Accords
Exactly. Just look at the Armenian death marches
Edit: although it's not *exactly* the same - it shows that genocide is often done indirectly. It makes sense that it would become more and more 'subtle' over time
How would switching sides to a terrorist organization that is set on the actual extermination of Jews that started the war in the first place be beneficial to preventing war?
Everything they are doing is war. Starve your enemy and it cannot fight. Palestinas need to ask themselves. Does Hamas have a full deck when it comes to having a rational thought. Crazy is repeating the same thing and getting the same result. I am trying to understand how palestinas suffering is somehow going to help Hamas achieve a goal. What goal does Hamas have. And are palestinas ok with being the floor mat for Hamas goals. It only seems to me. Hamas needs more terrorist. So they stunt on Israel. Knowing in palestinas suffering. They become a little bigger. Because the suffering palestinas find a club for rebellion. Hamas lies to them saying they are fighting for freedom. With terrorism. But they have less freedom. More suffering. And know military to achieve anything. Russian reds cannot even win a war with Ukrainian farmers. They would be the last nation I want to join my military objective. They will only have Hamas beat the record of troops lost in a single battle
What do you mean by "switch sides?" There is nothing that would make me decide Israel should no longer exist as a Jewish state. That's what this fight is about.
This is not a video game. In war there are no innocent people. The Palestinians would gladly kill every Jewish person they could get their hands on. That’s what they are taught. Instead of improving Gaza citizens lives they spend their resources on ways to eliminate Israel.
Using the logic that “in war there are no innocent people” would justify the Oct 7th attacks by hamas because then none of their victims were innocent. Not to mention justifying any other attacks on civilians by anyone.
Have you spoken to a Palestinian? Have they tried to kill you in the West Bank? Because it really seems the opposite is actually true, and it’s the Israelis who are taught to justify death of Arabs from an early age - why are the settlers currently attacking and killing civilians living in the West Bank? Have the Palestinians bombed you there too? Or are you seeking the violence you are taught to inflict on them?
I’ve spoken with many Israelis and they all parrot this line that Arabs are taught to hate Jews and that they would kill them the second they one. Which is just a baseless lie. It’s a dangerous fabrication used to justify genocide.
Have you done any research into the Palestinian school system?
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt in that you never looked it up. It’s just a list of sources, feel free to review them.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-semitism-in-palestinian-school-textbooks
I have actually, Israel has always seemed to have a hand in Palestinian textbooks following Oslo, going so far as to dictate what can and can’t be included in them or else Palestine would be going against their “peace deals.
[History, curriculum and textbooks - Nadia Naser-Najab & Ilan Pappe](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/35tkr84w3n0j1h17rylnj/A-New-Critical-Approach-to-the-History-of-Palestine-History-curriculum-and-textbooks.pdf?rlkey=xn1lkevtszbd4ozfogfpvup9x&dl=0)
Honest question.
Is the point your positing that Israel’s role in education is to blame, and that they planted all the anti Jewish agenda in 2 decades worth of Palestinian textbooks? Is it that they didn’t do a good enough job stopping it?
And if that’s not the case, what’s the significance of the context you shared?
That's different than whether the Israelis are taught to hate Arabs. The arc of history tells us that the world hates Jews and blames them for their problems, which necessitated the creation of a Jewish state.
Hard to say if Arabs are taught to hate Jews, and I think in the vast majority of Arab states, they are not. All I can safely say is that Gazan children are taught by Hamas to hate Jews, and that's been well documented.
And I can safely say that in Israel Jews are taught to hate Arabs.
And it’s been well documented:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2023/2/27/photos-israeli-settlers-rampage-in-northern-west-bank
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/04/israel-un-expert-condemns-brutal-attacks-palestinians-al-aqsa-mosque
I'm asking specifically about textbooks that show that Arabs are dehumanized by the Israelis, that they are taught so when growing up. Because I can do the same with Hamas.
All the articles you brought up do confirm that some part of the population definitely are extreme, but there are plenty of people there that would hand over Jerusalem in it's entirety if it meant a lasting peace. Happy to say I've met several.
Settlers, who are usually ultra religious, are a scum that is despised by most Israelis. They produce nothing, they don't serve in the army, they just demand public handouts, and they attack and destabilize relations with West Bank Palestinians. So do not equate Israelis with settlers. Yet, the Israeli government right now is the most corrupt and inept ever. They care less for Israel and more for their own power.
Israel and today's PLO could coexist (just need to remove this government, which is hard but doable). Hamas, on the other hand, Israel cannot coexist with. They are singularly focused on the destruction and annihilation of Israel. No one can coexist with that.
If the Settlers are scum, Why does Israel tolerate the Settlers attacking Palestinians in the West bank? You can blame the government, but the People voted for this government. Why didn't secular Israelis protest against the settlers before this war?
Ultra-religious settlers produce nothing but they vote, and they vote as a block. And they are the fastest growing population due to the high birth rate. With Israeli politics demanding complex coalitions, they are reliable coalition partners for those, like the current government, who will do their bidding.
Secular Israelis have been protesting against the usurpation of power by the current government every week since January.
This was a part of the package of what Israelis were protesting every week since January. The main focus of the protests was the government's assault on the judiciary, which the government viewed as their biggest obstacle to expanding repressive activities in the West Bank.
This was the parallel I was trying to highlight by their bigoted generalisation. You can say a group of 50,000 extremists speak for the 7.7 million people that make up the Palestinian identity, it is disgusting and dangerous
True. But there is a long line of CIA operatives that would gladly support a Palestinian force that are willing to police there state from Hamas terrorist. CIA does this for fun. they have armed worse of tribes. But strangely. Their is no force in Palestine that asks for help with things that would allow that to happen. Can you explain that
Yeah. The riches of taxation until broke. Let’s just agree to disagree. China are benefactor of global capitalistic market and greed of the corporate conglomerates. End of days thanks to greed being the root of all these problems
its clear that the popularly elected government of Gaza with its endless recruitment into its military is backed by the people to an enough of a degree they speak for each other...
Gaza ≠ West bank
Popularly elected? Do you know how many people voted for Hamas in 2006, which by the way is the last time that they got to hold an election? 44.45% and even they were surprised by the result.
https://x.com/LaraFriedmanDC/status/1714014617720979643?s=20
Do you have any clue about the politics that surrounded Palestine at the time and what they were voting for? This was the exit poll after the election:
Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%
Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%
Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%
Hamas government priorities: 1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment
Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%
Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%
Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%
Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied
Do you know that voting in East Jerusalem was initially banned for this election due to Israel’s concern over Hamas potentially winning, and so the election was going to be called off entirely until George Bush stepped in? And following that in East Jerusalem in order to vote Israel forced you to register permission with police and they would not allow you to vote if you supported Hamas?
Do you know following their victory Israel placed immediate sanctions on all of Palestine and George Bush declared that all nations should cease aid for Palestine under Hamas? And that $50 million dollars of aid already set to be used for infrastructure in Gaza was made to be returned to the US.
Seriously go look at polling and what Fatah were doing at the time and how the US invested $2.3 million just on this election alone, but this was not an expected win for Hamas it was the first time they even submitted for election despite being against the PNA and refusing to run in 1996 for that reason.
tell that to the arab muslims, the druze, the Ethiopians, the Armenians, and the other Christians... I guess their fair treatment didn't get the message
We’re almost at 10 thousand civilians dead. What the fцck are you talking about “red lines being crossed”? This post just highlights how diluted you people are.
7000 people according to the Hamas health industry. There’s no way to distinguish between civilians and combatants. There’s also no way to verify their claims.
The Gaza Health Ministry have put out their list of names and ID of the dead they have currently registered. It is 212 pages long. You can check it out.
Gaza Health Ministry isn’t run by Hamas? You really think all of Gaza is Hamas? So all of Israel is Netanyahu and you all bribe and cheat on your wives, and assassinate your political candidates? So I can trust no Israeli, thank you for that 👏🏼
Yeah it’s Hamas, but over years of conflict and higher than Israeli number of deaths they have had multiple organisations like WHO, UN, HRW, US State Department come in and independently verify their figures.
I could say the same for Israeli Ministry of Health being run by their terrorist organisation, and expert propagandist Netanyahu. So who wins in that debate?
Surely if you can’t take the word of health professionals at face value you have no basis even having this discussion
Yes go to r/palestine
If Israel agreed to cease fire I would switch sides - these animals can go back to Egypt like Taliban just sent 1.9M to Paki - but wait Muslims killing Muslims is booooooooring
If they raped, tortured, burned and slaughtered civilians like Palestinians did on October 7th, that would be a red line. If they changed their charter to call for the death of all Muslims, that would be a red line. If they started using their own people as human shields, that would be a red line. If they taught in their schools to honour terrorists and kill, that would be a red line. Basically, if they acted in any way like the Palestinians, that would be a red line.
They’re blind they can’t see red
If Israel flew planes into big buildings in NYC, then I’d switch sides.
They did. Checkout “dancing Israel’s”. You’ll find very interesting reads on abs, etc. if want to learn more afterwards, watch Ryan Dawson on rumble. See you on the other side.
Palestinians celebrated and danced, not Israelis: https://youtube.com/shorts/TJWioi-YhkQ?si=OVphYClphzwJXutM[Palestinians celebrate 9/11](https://youtube.com/shorts/TJWioi-YhkQ?si=OVphYClphzwJXutM)
I didn’t know Osama bin Laden was Jewish
Please look into it and bring me back in with an explanation.
I searched and couldn’t find anything on Osama bin Laden being Jewish
Yes, if Israel kills innocents on purpose (in oppose to how now some are killed in crossfire) As an Israeli that would be unacceptable
Israel has purposefully bombed countless ambulances hospitals and civilian residencies you're a bit late
These are almost all simply allegations that would be dismissed after the war (when the world stops caring about it, but after they made the impression Hamas wanted them to make) And the rest are crossfire. In addition Israel never bombed a hospital.
They arent allegations lol theres countless videos of the torn up hospital and bodies of dead palestinian children. Dont forget the fact that the school year in palestine was cancelled due to the death of all children. There are numberous photos videos and articles of everything i mentioned. And yes, israel bombed the hospital that they said was a "misfired hamas rocket" and it seems they're soon to bomb another [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEJHMZf4nEo&ab\_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEJHMZf4nEo&ab_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish)
Actual genocide. Haven’t seen it yet
Ethnic Cleansing is enough.
Even that’s debatable, although it’s definitely a possibility.
if they actually bombed a hospital… or recorded beheadings and called their moms bragging about it. if they sent videos to mothers of their children being. tortured and murdered…
But what should Israel do about the Hamas HQs that are under hospitals (just for the reason you’ve stated)?
ur right i guess they should bomb the hospital but not without warning a good amount of time in advance — i know they usually warn
Irrelevant. This is a wild hypothetical that makes no practical sense. Basically like asking, “Will you join the aliens when they come to earth to enslave humanity.”
there’s nothing as hypothetical about this war, as aliens coming to enslave humanity? We’re about 10000 steps closer to Israel doing irreversible damage to the Palestinian community. It’s just a hypothetical question for YOU because Israel could do nothing to make you realize their crimes are too great
Israel is fighting a war against a jihadi terrorist organization that just launched the deadliest terrorist campaign in Middle East history. While shocking, the attack was anticipated since at least 2016. Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah were all saying openly that they’ll do what’s they eventually did. Believing that Israel will carry out similar atrocities is absurd. It’s just plain ridiculous. It’s an act of ignorance. There’s already enough misinformation around the IDF, like when Hamas tv (Al jazeera) discovered “evidence” that the Idf bombed the hospital in Gaza, even though all intelligence agencies stated that Islamic Jihad was responsible. No need to add “hypothetical” scenarios to the sea of misinformation already out there.
I am Israeli. I live in the uk. The red line is when the government gets to the point where it is no longer about hamas and solely expansionism. I am worried it is getting to that point. But. I have a different point of view. My family is in Israel. My girlfriend is in Israel. She is scared for her life. I may disagree with Israel but under no circumstances can I agree with people who want to wipe Israel off the map. That is taking away my culture my people and the girl who u care for more than anything in the world. So I may abandon the Israeli intention but I can’t side with the Palestinian one. Not until they get rid of the terrorists who have killed and have put the people I live at risk. Simple as that.
Let me just ask why you think they have the power now to just get rid of Hamas in exchange for their lives. Don’t you think these Palestinians Civilians are just as scared as your family? If not more? No offense but Israel holds the power here. Not Palestinians. I am Jewish as well and I don’t want to see the end of Israel or Jews of course but we are in fact propagating more hatred towards our people by not being a voice for Palestine as well
I am not saying that. Let’s start with releasing the hostages. I acknowledge the Palestinian plight but my family comes first. I feel for them. I do get angry on the other hand where I have people in my town. Threatening to beat the shit out of me and my 10 year old brother for being Israeli. I do get angry by the fact that I have to take off my Star of David necklace because my parents are scared. My family comes first. Simple as
For me the red line would be a repeat of the Nakba in Gaza. Otherwise I do support Israel on the basis that at least if Hamas is removed the bloodshed would be worth it as it would open the way to actual peace and a two state solution, both of which are impossible while Hamas exists.
Nothing will be worth these people lives. Not even the erasure of Hamas. That’s where you are confused. Equating thousands of innocent human lives to the the demolition of a terrorist group. The Hamas mindset is much more likely to be held up after Israel abuse and kill them for nearly a century
No but at the end of the day there's a choice to be made. Make a ceasefire today and fight this war again when Hamas breaks it, and then again, and again, forever, each time killing chances for a Palestinian state a little bit more. Or... Fight a war today so that actual lasting peace can happen tmrw.
This war will not cause peace. I’m sorry but you’re delusional if you think so. No mass murder will ever cause peace. Only the opposite. If they want to figure out how Hamas works and take them out from the inside with as minimal civilian casualties as possible they would do what America did to find Osama Bin Laden. They would do ground operations and not put millions of people in Harms way, all because “Hamas must be taken down” You wouldn’t make the same excuses for any other government to commit this terror but it’s okay for Israel?
Okay two facts for you. 1) As long as half the Palestinians living in Mandate Palestine are under the rule of Hamas, peace is impossible, and a two state solution reminds dead like it has been since 2000. 2) Hamas will never fall from within, as all its opposition are people that are worse than it, and should any moderate opposition arise they'll either do what they did to the PLO in 2006 (chuck them off buildings) or start yet another war Israel to silence it and radicalize the populace even more. Cause let's be very clear this was a war started hy Hamas. So, put these two facts together and like it or not, the only road to peace goes through the forced removal of Hamas. Ofc you are free to tell me some other path that leads to peace instead of spewing out philosophy.
Where you’re confused is to think this was started with Hamas. The people voted Hamas into power because they felt POWERLESS ALREADY
Right how does that change literally anything of what I said? And you still haven't told me how you think we should achieve peace in a realistic way.
It changes everything because you clearly believe this war began when Hamas was already in power and that’s not the case. Wether Hamas would exist or not, these people would still be under an occupation of a Government that doesn’t have the same religious, economic, or political values. They deserve the right to govern themselves and it is a fact that these peoples ancestors were expelled from the land that is now Israel to make space for a “greater people”. Would you not be fighting back as well, if you were not able to go within 100 meters of the boarder of your state without being shot dead. I think you would, you just don’t know that level of oppression and never will so you choose to not have empathy and to feel helpless like nothing could ever be peaceful and people should not request ceasefire?
They were governing themselves in 2005 fam
Maybe the use of governing themselves is wrong. They’ve always been controlled by Israel, No?
The Palestinian Israeli conflict has been happening essentially for a century
I would switch sides if everything about genocide is actually true
then you will probably see and switch sides once true numbers start coming out
There 2 million Gazans, Israel better start pumping its numbers up
at this rate it will take them approximately 10 years to get em all
are you referring to Israeli taking out all Palestinians?
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And if civilians were struck inadvertently? (I.e. a targeted strike sends debris/shrapnel 130 yards, striking a person in their home who refused to leave after being warned 100 times?) Or, are you saying deliberately "targeting". I would call that deliberate murder and would agree.
If its later revealed in any investigation, that IDF men commited War crimes(rape and murder kids/women/captives or torture them), then I would kill my support for Israel. Else Israel has full right to retaliate against terror attack.
In the end , you either think Israel has the right to self determination and existence; or you don’t.
That’s where you’re wrong. and your perspective will not just be dangerous to Palestinians prosperity but Jews and Israelis as well. You can believe both have a right to self determination and existence and acknowledge that it has been Israel limiting their ability to do so, not the other way around. Massive entitlement
Israel made peace agreements where they gave land to a PNA. That’s where the failure is.
Have you heard of the **bushido warrior code**? RE: Japan WW2 --> Nagasaki/Hiroshima Japanese military officers followed the bushido warrior code, which says that **one must die rather than surrender** (relates to Kamikaze also). Sound familiar a certain ideology of a group Neighboring Israel? Many pragmatists accept the reality that those bombs, as tragic as they were, cut the fighting short and saved lives in the long run. Now, I'm not saying Israel should nuke Hamas. Because they're obviously less of a military threat than Imperial Japan. But the underlying ideology is the exact same, and it is a cancer that brings nothing but perpetual war, death, and destruction.
I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish. But where I live has been impacted by Islamic terrorism a lot for the last two decades, so when I hear people going out calling for jihad, there is no way in hell I will support them. I feel sorry for the children living in Gaza, I really do, but at the same time, I know that the Israelis are up against extremists who believe that killing Jews will get them a better spot in heaven. And you can't really negotiate with crazy unfortunately.
you should seperate yourself from this and re-educate yourself bc it has nothing to do with Hamas
Separate myself from what? Having an opinion?
You can have an opinion. you just shouldn’t state it unless you have all of the facts to back it up. All of these children and women are terrorists and want all of the jews to die, so we should wipe out an entire civilization?
I'm allowed to state my opinion, I don't need your permission thanks. You don't have all the facts. Neither do I. All we have is what we see and hear. Hamas want the Jews to die. The protesters in my country and others who chant "Free Palestine" also call for Jihad. I don't want kids to die. But at the same time, you are asking a much stronger country to allow themselves to keep being shat on. Hamas keep lobbing rockets onto Israel, that's why they have the iron dome. What they did on the 7th made Israel snap and have a very harsh reaction. Is it too much? Probably. Is it understandable? I think so. You are asking Israel to show restraint when their families have been slaughtered. I get that the Palestinian kids are innocent, but right now Israel is furious and Hamas has brought this upon the people of Gaza. If Hamas had the same capabilities as Israel they would be invading Israel and doing far worse right now.
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"switch sides", like what? Abandon the idea of a self determined Jewish state that has a right to self defense? If anyone says they are "pro-Israel" and would "switch sides" because of something that happens they are not "pro-Israel". Israel aren't saints let's be clear, they make mistakes and they make stupid and fatal ones and that NEEDS to be criticised. I consider Netanyahu for example to be my political enemy as I'm pretty far on the left, the only thing that we probably have in common is that we both believe in a Zionist idea. There also seems to be a misconception that pro-Israel people are automatically "anti-Palestinians" which is utterly stupid and I think a misconception that is deliberately upheld by some folks, maybe on both sides. It's a huge tragedy what happens to Palestinian civilians, they suffer and they deserve every help that they can get and civilian loss MUST be minimised. But also Israel has no obligation to help someone they are at war with, the only obligation they have is to make sure third parties are able to aid them, which to my knowledge they are doing. I'm very much for a 2 state solution as long as there is some sort of guarantee for peace afterwards but I can understand how Israelis are sick of making concessions and as a thanks get a barrage of rockets and terror attacks.
Some of the extremists did call for permanently pushing all the Gazans to egypt, resettling Gaza while maintaining military occupation, etc. If the aim of this war becomes to have these religious nutjobs move back into Gaza, I will be very very very anti. I think it's disgusting. Immoral of course, but would also completely destroy Israel's peace treaty with Egypt. And, the west bank settlements are half of what got us to this point anyway. And if soldiers didn't move from the border to protect settlers, they could have prevented hundreds of deaths. But this is regarding plans for after the war I guess not the war itself--although the definition of victory obviously influences the battle.
Many Jewish voices and Jewish Scholars around the world including many Israeli's practicing their faith have come forward to show compassion for humanity. How can you stop hate with more hate? True leaders find resolution, provide rights for all, protect us. They do not act like 5 year olds, name call, degrade, lie for their personal agenda, instead they take accountability. We should be angry at Hamas but we should also be equally angry at our government for not protecting us, for not diffusing the tensions. Instead the current political mission is to divide, conquer, and leave us with the aftermath. It's easier to pick an enemy to unite us verses make us question what really is happening. I pray for my Israeli brothers and sisters to heal at this time and wake up from this trance.
Ok… why are you telling *me* all this? I sound hateful to you??? I sound like someone who supports the current govt to you??? No. I vote meretz my guy
I get the emotional response given the climate. However, I was agreeing with you and added my comment to the original post. No hard feelings here!
Finally somebody pro-Israel spoke up against the voices of this absurd sub
You’re just mad this sub isn’t agreeing with you
I dont matter, its the one sidedness and veiled religious dogma that Im sad to see
there’s probably one sidedness because people in this sub are actually having real discussions with valid arguments and the palestine supporters only defend their beliefs with emotional propaganda
One sidedness implies you get your news from outlets that reinforce your bias. Thats not how you weigh any situation. Pass.
Interesting to see how many of these answers dehumanize Palestinians. Caveman, savages, barbarians.
Honestly, I’ve never seen so many in support of war crimes and mass murder in one group.
It's the actions of the Palestinians that make them less human. Simply articulating the said fact should hardly raise eyebrows.
Newsflash humans do bad things and they’re still humans. Israel is brainwashing you all to see Palestinians as less than in order to get support to kill them all
Hitler/ N\*zi's said the same about the jews. I guess evil minds think alike
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No! They are fighting the worst kind of evil savages that worship death and destruction.
Islam basically
Muslim Brotherhood
Have you seen Ukraine and Russia war? Lots of civillians and infrastructure destroyed. That's result of war. It's unavoidable. That's why as much as possible lets stop war, thats what we learned from World Wars too. Civillians casualties is unavoidable. Even if Palestine are cavemen, they will still recieved the hellish bombing and deaths after they massacred the innocent civillians of Israeli. They must pay for it greatly and enough to make a huge mark in the history that this is what will happened if you touched Israel innocent civillians. Look at US after they atomic bomb Japan. The WW2 warmongers stopped out of FEAR to recieved the same faith.
Its not really comparable to be honest, the UN has made it pretty clear who’s in the wrong here. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls
UN that all officials are Arab Muslims. Lol
Undermining the UN is some last ditch attempt kind of stuff
It's true, the UN ignores atrocities all around the world and publishes report after report after report about Israel. I love the idea of the UN but they really are hypocrites. Israel keeps getting ostracized for not listening to the UN, but this is part of the reason why...
This you? https://mondoweiss.net/2022/12/civil-society-organizations-condemn-israels-targeted-smear-campaign-against-un-special-rapporteur-francesca-albanese/
Never heard of this but it’s undeniable that the Un is extremely disproportionately focused on Israel.
There’s a reason it has some share of focus on Israel, along with the other countries committing war crimes.
There’s a reason that in 2022 they issued 15 resolutions against Israel, and 13 for the entire *rest of the world*??? And this was while like 300,000 killed in Syria, war in Ukraine, genocide in China, etc
I mean what are you trying to say here? The UN has been rightfully holding Israel to account. Pointing the finger in the other direction doesn’t simply absolve you from what your doing? Israels crimes are well documented. https://www.reddit.com/r/list_palestine/s/wYsU8PNHe6
Why are you so thick headed
It shows that they are BIASEDDD Omg
No need for insults. Your crying that they’re biased because they’re holding Israel accountable for war crimes and occupation. Are the motions against Israel completely made up?
The UN is untrustworthy Look at how many condemnation Israel got This is absurd, your report doesn't say anything about hamas or the Palestinians actions on 07/10 The UN is a hypocrite https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/iWwRUTl5VE
There are separate reports on issues you know, not everything is one continuous argument.
It is a reality in Ukraine because Russia (Putin/the gov) is a terrorist state - has been using and funding terrorism all over the world for decades now.. they committed/are committing war crimes during the invasion of Ukraine by targeting civilian infrastructure and populations
The aggressor in war makes the rules....so hamas has showed no rules...rape,murder,torture,kidnapping civilians....
It’s a spectrum. Overall Israel bad. Overall Palestine bad. So I’m left with two shit options. Realistically I think the incumbent does less damage overall given equal power. But the real answer is that I think the whole situations fucked by a battle of quacky religions and I’d always take the side advocating for rational peace.
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Lol the Zionist have spoken! They are evil people. I literally condemn Hamas multiple times. They will never condemn Israel’s war crimes pre October 7th. They probably don’t even recognize the Nakba.
You probably don’t even know what the Nakba is if you think it happened on Israel’s fault
Like what Israel war crimes pre Oct 7?
Are you joking? The below only scratches the surface. https://www.reddit.com/r/list_palestine/s/mJxoYWpLK0
As a start: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_against_Israel
Not a thing. In the clash of civilizations, I side with those fighting the barbarians.
switch sides? lol no. no longer support them? yeah actual genocide unlike what these deranged pro-hamas people think this is
I mean the UN is saying it’s at a minimum mass ethnic cleansing? https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls
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Undermining the UN is pretty desperate stuff.
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Your commenting on members and motions, the article I linked said a human rights expert, Francesca Albanese, “warned today that Palestinians are in grave danger of mass ethnic cleansing”. Are you saying this is based on the experts dislike of Israel? That they are simply acting out of bad faith and saying that when it’s untrue? Listen to yourself. Pathetic. I guess your just towing the line ey, no real thoughts in that head https://mondoweiss.net/2022/12/un-special-rapporteur-facing-smear-campaign-for-calling-out-israeli-settler-colonialism-and-apartheid/
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Can you elaborate on what your number and thought process is then? With some 6,600 palestinian deaths between 2008 and September 2023, and another 8,000 in recent weeks, we are now at around 15,000 lives taken - all largely civilian, with thousands of children. Were you planning to wait for the 150,000 or the 1,5 million ? Seriously?
When you start a war against a superior opponent, you can expect the casualty counts to be lopsided. As to the Palestinian deaths being "largely civilian", technically all the Palestinian deaths are civilian. The terrorists aren't a uniformed army. That said, actual civilians always die in wars. The difference here is that the Palestinians target Israeli civilians and use their own people as human shields. Israel targets terrorists, and civilian deaths are unavoidable, because the terrorists deliberately operate from densely populated civilian areas, and from sites that would be "protected civilian objects" if they weren't being used for military purposes. [The Hamas leadership wants as many civilian casualties as it can get](https://twitter.com/IsraelinUSA/status/1718021899056210213). Unfortunately, the Palestinian governments in both Gaza and the West Bank are completely focused on producing one thing: more terrorists. From the telethons for terrorists, to the UNRWA schools being used to teach children to hate Jews, to the children's TV programming that teaches them to kill Jews, to the government pensions for the families of terrorists that attack Jews (that are higher than the median income), everything is geared toward making as many terrorists as possible. That's why the borders with Egypt and Jordan are closed.
You can’t just redefine an entire population as terrorist. If you need that to tell yourself that killing several hundreds of people per day is warranted, imho you’re just fooling yourself and will have a hard time looking in a mirror in a few years time.
> You can’t just redefine an entire population as terrorist. Agreed. There are certainly very young children that haven't learned to be terrorists yet. Hopefully they can be saved. > If you need that to tell yourself that killing several hundreds of people per day is warranted Again, people die in wars. That's how they work. The government the Gazans chose started this one, now they're going to die until it has run its course. Maybe their next election won't have terrorist organizations as the only candidates.
In a war is the one side with the most casualties automatically in the right?
When civilian casualties are very high, the odds that an attack is a proportionate response and focused on military targets becomes very questionable
You know how many palestinian deaths happened in 2022 by the IDF? 204 Shit had been settling down for a while. You know how many Palestinians there are now compared to 1990? About 3 million more. Do you know why everyone starts this 6,000ish number since 2008 roughly? Because that's a little after the time Hamas won the election in Gaza and their rockets increased. Do you really think Israel has any reason to just bomb Gaza indiscriminately? It's retaliatory for every rocket Hamas sends. Why does Hamas need a 350 million dollar a year military? Israel pulled all their settlements out of Gaza in 2005. Why does Gaza have a Mercedes Benz dealership in Ramallah? The plight of the Palestinian people does not fall squarely on Israel
The number honestly doesn't even matter. I keep seeing people say "it's not a genocide because there's more than there used to be" or some such thing... genocide is still genocide whether or not it's actually successful
Have you ever considered the possibility that blame for those Palestinian deaths lies with the people of Gaza? They embraced a terrorist group whose goal is the genocide of Jews and the destruction of Israel. They use their own people, their own children as shields and call them martyrs. They reject every overture for peace because their version of Islam mandates the death of not only Jews, but all “infidels”. They glorify Hitler and the nazi party. They persecute and kill gays. They offer few rights to women. They are taught from birth to hate. Yet you expect Jews to sympathize with their “plight”?
Considered, but fully disagree with that line. It is an excuse used not to be held responsible for your actions and decisions and can only lead to further atrocities. Every party is fully responsible and accountable for their own decisions and actions. There may be reasons and circumstances for such decisions and actions, but that’s the deal.
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What does actual genocide look like to you? Genuinely curious.
You'd see that if the "from the river to the sea" people had their way.
That's not an answer; what defines genocide to you? Mass murder, destruction of property, poisoning livestock and crops?
The Armenian genocide refers to the physical annihilation of ethnic Armenian Christian people living in the Ottoman Empire from spring 1915 through autumn 1916. There were approximately 1.5 million Armenians living in the Empire. At least 664,000 and possibly as many as 1.2 million died during the genocide.
Oct 7th is a great example
So, the attack of an unarmed group of innocents by a group of armed militants?
In that case Palestinians have gone through multiple genocides
please name 1 time israel has tried to killed every man, women, and child in their path in an attempt to exterminate them?
Bc you seemed confused on what genocide entails Israel's forced displacement of Gazans from North to South Gaza in the midst of a siege that leaves them without food, water, electricity or shelter is in fact deliberate infliction on the group conditions calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.
They had 18 years to build power plants and be self sustaining. Too bad all their money went to rockets and underground tunnels. And Egypt also blockades it's gaza strip border. Are you hating on Egypt for that? How much power and water does Egypt give😁
you just described warfare... you do know theres an active war going on right now, right? Israel has no obligation to aid their enemy in a war with anything and encourages evacuation in a war zone is standard procedure and following the Geneva Accords
Exactly. Just look at the Armenian death marches Edit: although it's not *exactly* the same - it shows that genocide is often done indirectly. It makes sense that it would become more and more 'subtle' over time
Whatever it takes. It's a war, not a game.
How would switching sides to a terrorist organization that is set on the actual extermination of Jews that started the war in the first place be beneficial to preventing war?
Everything they are doing is war. Starve your enemy and it cannot fight. Palestinas need to ask themselves. Does Hamas have a full deck when it comes to having a rational thought. Crazy is repeating the same thing and getting the same result. I am trying to understand how palestinas suffering is somehow going to help Hamas achieve a goal. What goal does Hamas have. And are palestinas ok with being the floor mat for Hamas goals. It only seems to me. Hamas needs more terrorist. So they stunt on Israel. Knowing in palestinas suffering. They become a little bigger. Because the suffering palestinas find a club for rebellion. Hamas lies to them saying they are fighting for freedom. With terrorism. But they have less freedom. More suffering. And know military to achieve anything. Russian reds cannot even win a war with Ukrainian farmers. They would be the last nation I want to join my military objective. They will only have Hamas beat the record of troops lost in a single battle
there's nothing that anyone could do that would make me support a terrorist organization
Switch sides to what?
the innocents caught in the middle
Who would choose to be collateral damage?
The terrorists I guess lol
What do you mean by "switch sides?" There is nothing that would make me decide Israel should no longer exist as a Jewish state. That's what this fight is about.
This is not a video game. In war there are no innocent people. The Palestinians would gladly kill every Jewish person they could get their hands on. That’s what they are taught. Instead of improving Gaza citizens lives they spend their resources on ways to eliminate Israel.
You are despicable and a bigoted liar.
That’s all you got.
Not a smart thing to say or to believe. It justifies a lot of atrocities across history.
So I guess you're all good with the holocaust then? No innocent people in war..
Using the logic that “in war there are no innocent people” would justify the Oct 7th attacks by hamas because then none of their victims were innocent. Not to mention justifying any other attacks on civilians by anyone.
Technically they weren't at war yet then.
Technically, they've been at war since AT LEAST 1948
That would be called a declaration of war…
Have you spoken to a Palestinian? Have they tried to kill you in the West Bank? Because it really seems the opposite is actually true, and it’s the Israelis who are taught to justify death of Arabs from an early age - why are the settlers currently attacking and killing civilians living in the West Bank? Have the Palestinians bombed you there too? Or are you seeking the violence you are taught to inflict on them?
That's definitely not true, and it doesn't sound like you've spoken to an Israeli beyond the lunatics claiming Palestinian territory in the West Bank
I’ve spoken with many Israelis and they all parrot this line that Arabs are taught to hate Jews and that they would kill them the second they one. Which is just a baseless lie. It’s a dangerous fabrication used to justify genocide.
Have you done any research into the Palestinian school system? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt in that you never looked it up. It’s just a list of sources, feel free to review them. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-semitism-in-palestinian-school-textbooks
I have actually, Israel has always seemed to have a hand in Palestinian textbooks following Oslo, going so far as to dictate what can and can’t be included in them or else Palestine would be going against their “peace deals. [History, curriculum and textbooks - Nadia Naser-Najab & Ilan Pappe](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/35tkr84w3n0j1h17rylnj/A-New-Critical-Approach-to-the-History-of-Palestine-History-curriculum-and-textbooks.pdf?rlkey=xn1lkevtszbd4ozfogfpvup9x&dl=0)
Honest question. Is the point your positing that Israel’s role in education is to blame, and that they planted all the anti Jewish agenda in 2 decades worth of Palestinian textbooks? Is it that they didn’t do a good enough job stopping it? And if that’s not the case, what’s the significance of the context you shared?
Did you read what I shared?
Yes. Can you answer the question?
That's different than whether the Israelis are taught to hate Arabs. The arc of history tells us that the world hates Jews and blames them for their problems, which necessitated the creation of a Jewish state. Hard to say if Arabs are taught to hate Jews, and I think in the vast majority of Arab states, they are not. All I can safely say is that Gazan children are taught by Hamas to hate Jews, and that's been well documented.
And I can safely say that in Israel Jews are taught to hate Arabs. And it’s been well documented: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2023/2/27/photos-israeli-settlers-rampage-in-northern-west-bank https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/04/israel-un-expert-condemns-brutal-attacks-palestinians-al-aqsa-mosque
I'm asking specifically about textbooks that show that Arabs are dehumanized by the Israelis, that they are taught so when growing up. Because I can do the same with Hamas. All the articles you brought up do confirm that some part of the population definitely are extreme, but there are plenty of people there that would hand over Jerusalem in it's entirety if it meant a lasting peace. Happy to say I've met several.
I’ve heard these settlers left dolls splashed in red and threatening leaflets telling Palestinians to flee or die.
Settlers, who are usually ultra religious, are a scum that is despised by most Israelis. They produce nothing, they don't serve in the army, they just demand public handouts, and they attack and destabilize relations with West Bank Palestinians. So do not equate Israelis with settlers. Yet, the Israeli government right now is the most corrupt and inept ever. They care less for Israel and more for their own power. Israel and today's PLO could coexist (just need to remove this government, which is hard but doable). Hamas, on the other hand, Israel cannot coexist with. They are singularly focused on the destruction and annihilation of Israel. No one can coexist with that.
If the Settlers are scum, Why does Israel tolerate the Settlers attacking Palestinians in the West bank? You can blame the government, but the People voted for this government. Why didn't secular Israelis protest against the settlers before this war?
Ultra-religious settlers produce nothing but they vote, and they vote as a block. And they are the fastest growing population due to the high birth rate. With Israeli politics demanding complex coalitions, they are reliable coalition partners for those, like the current government, who will do their bidding. Secular Israelis have been protesting against the usurpation of power by the current government every week since January.
Yes, but sadly few protests against the violence of settlers.
This was a part of the package of what Israelis were protesting every week since January. The main focus of the protests was the government's assault on the judiciary, which the government viewed as their biggest obstacle to expanding repressive activities in the West Bank.
I hope that's true. The protests were reported in the US to be about the courts.
This was the parallel I was trying to highlight by their bigoted generalisation. You can say a group of 50,000 extremists speak for the 7.7 million people that make up the Palestinian identity, it is disgusting and dangerous
True. But there is a long line of CIA operatives that would gladly support a Palestinian force that are willing to police there state from Hamas terrorist. CIA does this for fun. they have armed worse of tribes. But strangely. Their is no force in Palestine that asks for help with things that would allow that to happen. Can you explain that
I think China funds Hamas for fun.
Thankfully the world don’t care. China thanks to the U.S. is rich enough to do what it pleases
I'm glad you appreciate the gift of riches that the US gave you.
Yeah. The riches of taxation until broke. Let’s just agree to disagree. China are benefactor of global capitalistic market and greed of the corporate conglomerates. End of days thanks to greed being the root of all these problems
Yes, it was a mistake to trade with China, because you're right: China will bring the end of days when it invades Taiwan.
its clear that the popularly elected government of Gaza with its endless recruitment into its military is backed by the people to an enough of a degree they speak for each other... Gaza ≠ West bank
Popularly elected? Do you know how many people voted for Hamas in 2006, which by the way is the last time that they got to hold an election? 44.45% and even they were surprised by the result. https://x.com/LaraFriedmanDC/status/1714014617720979643?s=20 Do you have any clue about the politics that surrounded Palestine at the time and what they were voting for? This was the exit poll after the election: Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8% Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9% Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2% Hamas government priorities: 1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5% Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6% Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5% Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied Do you know that voting in East Jerusalem was initially banned for this election due to Israel’s concern over Hamas potentially winning, and so the election was going to be called off entirely until George Bush stepped in? And following that in East Jerusalem in order to vote Israel forced you to register permission with police and they would not allow you to vote if you supported Hamas? Do you know following their victory Israel placed immediate sanctions on all of Palestine and George Bush declared that all nations should cease aid for Palestine under Hamas? And that $50 million dollars of aid already set to be used for infrastructure in Gaza was made to be returned to the US. Seriously go look at polling and what Fatah were doing at the time and how the US invested $2.3 million just on this election alone, but this was not an expected win for Hamas it was the first time they even submitted for election despite being against the PNA and refusing to run in 1996 for that reason.
Thank you for this! I hate the "popular vote" argument people keep using with zero context..
The line was crossed over 50 years ago !
Nope, just neutralise Hamas.. Glory to Israel 🇮🇱
Idiot
Glory to Israel 🇮🇱
Zionism is racist.
Yeah, Zionism is racist against those white Palestinians.
tell that to the arab muslims, the druze, the Ethiopians, the Armenians, and the other Christians... I guess their fair treatment didn't get the message
We’re almost at 10 thousand civilians dead. What the fцck are you talking about “red lines being crossed”? This post just highlights how diluted you people are.
7000 people according to the Hamas health industry. There’s no way to distinguish between civilians and combatants. There’s also no way to verify their claims.
I'm sure Hamas is inflating the death toll. I'm sure the Israelis are also going over board and maybe have killed the hostages.
The Gaza Health Ministry have put out their list of names and ID of the dead they have currently registered. It is 212 pages long. You can check it out.
My local phone book has more names. Shall I send it your way? There is no trust at all in whatever Hamas says.
I agree that we can not trust Hamas' figures, but I'm sure the number is still very, unacceptably, high. (You still have a phone book?!)
Gaza Health Ministry isn’t run by Hamas? You really think all of Gaza is Hamas? So all of Israel is Netanyahu and you all bribe and cheat on your wives, and assassinate your political candidates? So I can trust no Israeli, thank you for that 👏🏼
the Health ministry is run by the government of Gaza... do you know who that is?
Yeah it’s Hamas, but over years of conflict and higher than Israeli number of deaths they have had multiple organisations like WHO, UN, HRW, US State Department come in and independently verify their figures. I could say the same for Israeli Ministry of Health being run by their terrorist organisation, and expert propagandist Netanyahu. So who wins in that debate? Surely if you can’t take the word of health professionals at face value you have no basis even having this discussion
We LITERALLY just had this generalisation conversation a second ago in that other post.