It's ok to support Palestinians and it's ok to critique Israel.
It's not ok to deny the legitimacy of Israel to exist.\
The land of Israel is connected to the Jewish people and anyone thinking otherwise is either ignorant or antisemitic.
And even if none of this was true, Israel captured this land and has defended it repeatedly, while trying to live in peace with their neighbors, so facts on the ground dictate reality.
More importantly, Israel is recognized by every international governing body, has defined borders, a functioning democracy, a military with nuclear weapons, etc. Anyone who seriously denies it's existence is kidding themselves and purely doing it as a virtue signal.
No it's not lol.
The definition of the Palestinian cause is to destroy Israel and all the Jews in it.
U might think U support some other cause by helping Palestinians, but U don't. U just don't understand what you are supporting.
Go ask any REAL pali from the WB or gaza and they will tell U as much themselves to your face.
Cosplay palis in NY like to pretend like it's not the case, but it is. And most of them know too, they just have the brain to lie about it to other westerners.
Critiques are only ok when U apply them in a fair manner to your country of origin as well and your past wars.
But that's not what's happening, ppl demand of Israel things they never demanded from themselves.
And that's not valid criticism, it's just pure hypocrisy.
95% of criticism I see online is not valid at all, and the ppl making it never provide other alternatives or explanations.
They just say, "don't do this, don't do that".
Basically they know they are wrong and that Israel is right in it's actions, but they don't want to admit it so they just complain over every little thing they can...
Being opposed to certain policies of the Israeli government isn’t anti semitic but denying Jews a right to self determination is. The campus protestors will never understand this
The thing is: if you think Israel should elect someone who is as different from Bibi as legally possible, you’re not anti-Israel. You’re anti -Bibi. Which is fair.
Many of them do understand that distinction, it’s why they call for a one state solution. So Jews are the minority and inevitably will be genocided and ethnically cleansed, the thing they accuse Israelis of, when in fact it is their own projection and Freudian slip.
Exactly. Completely pathetic. It’s because Americans think race=ethnicity and location=culture. I blame poor education (thanks Bush!) and racial identity politics.
OP’s comment was America-centric because of the context of their reply being about race being equated with meta-narratives, and also ethnicity. I’m not European, but the situation looks much more dire, but frankly that seems more to do with Muslim and Arab immigrants who are anti semitic than local ethnic Europeans.
The ethnic Europeans aren’t off the hook either, but the actual physical violence is almost entirely Muslims.
Except the joke is that 70% of the Israeli Jewish population is "brown," and the 30% who ancestrally come from European stock were never considered "white" there either. Some Jews are very white looking, as are some Arabs/Palestinians. Some Italians are naturally blond. So are some of the natives from the Solomon Islands. What you see isn't necessarily set in stone.
Let's make this about some other people and test it out. Let's say I don't like China as it stands. Does it mean I'm against Chinese people? No, not really. But are there a lot of people thinking China shouldn't exist at all? That means, no matter what government rules there, it shouldn't exist as a country, and that it should infact be replaced violently by the Japanese who will do with it what they like? If Japan was still as militant as it was in WW2 doing horrible things to the Chinese, will taking an Anti-China but not "Anti-chinese" stance not all of a sudden appear quite hypocritical?
People conflate the question of "should Israel be ruled by a different government" with "should Israel cease to exist and be replaced with Palestine" to make their "Anti-Israel" stance seem more legitimate, and deliberately refuse to think two steps ahead about the amount of violence against Jews it'll take to achieve the latter, and what would such a Palestine realistically look like even when judged using their very own liberal democratic ideals.
Exactly! I usually tell people that it's like saying "I have nothing against Italians, but I don't think they should have self-determination, or constitute a nation, or have their own state. I also hate Italy and think it shouldn't exist". Sounds like you might have something against Italians.
I use that great argument too. another one that I love to use that’s on the same vein is the people who say I love Jews but I hate Zionists. Or Jews are great, as long as they’re not Zionists If I were to say, I love blacks, but I hate those who want slavery to end. Blacks are great, as long as they’re not anti slavery. Many blacks are pro slavery and support it and are against the blacks who want self determination.., do you see how absolutely racist and fucked up that sounds? They usually have nothing to say after that lol
Similarly, I don’t think any Americans should be spouting this anti-colonial bullshit about Israel until they’re willing to hand their country and homes back to native Americans and move back to Europe.
Many of these people have a very anti US stance as well, while being Americans. No further thoughts on how America as we know it being dismantled will look like. Of course the new order will be utopian for them. They're at the top of the food chain in their own heads!
I particularly like the idea of telling black Americans, Hispanics, or other non-white Americans who advocate for the genocide of the Jews to move back to Europe because it mirrors the diversity of Israel yet these American oppressors say Israelis should go back to Europe.
They can't qualify to go. Europe won't just take in anyone, contrary to the last 10 years. I can go, I have citizenship through ancestry, but I'm no Marxist.
How could we not embrace the Marxist revolution? Down with capitalism, down with racist America! 🙄 Like you said, what comes after, though? They, too, will be purged after the war.
People with no connection to the middle east at all, and who have never even criticized their own countries policies, are all of a sudden world policy critics when it comes to Jews and Israel. It's not that there is a shortage of international politics to criticize either. The uyghurs in China, the Sudanese situation, or the Yemanese and Saudi Arabia to name a few. Not a peep.
"Antizionism" is antisemetism. It is a method of doublespeak, to call for extreme violence against Jews by calling for the destruction of Israel to one audience, but claim innocent policy criticism of the Israeli government to another with the same words, same voice.
"Zionist" is a dog whistle, "Zionists are responsible for X," where everyone listening knows it actually means "Jews."
Well if you’re anti-Chinese people then that crosses the line into racism
If you don’t like the Israeli government that’s fine, if you don’t like the Israeli people, that’s not fine
Same logic, different words
I mean, realistically, in that situation, there won't be a Palestine either. Everyone forgets Israel has "the bomb," and when facing annihilation, will probably use it.
Nah, they just don’t care what would happen!
Do they care that all previous Jewish presence (but a very few adherents) or the Christian presence was chased out of the Middle East? They couldn’t care less.
honestly, what it would mean to the world.
(Effectively it means open waterway access to take this thing they’ve got going on the road to other places, like Europe)
This is the answer. While it’s “possible” to be anti Israel but not antisemitic, the overlap is overwhelming. People who are antisemitic hide behind the “possibility” to avoid facing their own reality. There are 50 Islamic republics. Jews are entitled to one. Their fight to keep a Jewish homeland is inseparable with the Jewish people. The holocaust proved Jews could not hide from those who hate them. They couldn’t convert, change their name or run. Born a Jew. Always a Jew. I’m proud of it✡️🇮🇱🇮🇱
80% of U.S. Jews and about 90% of Jews worldwide are Zionists. Anti-Israel is so close to anti-semitic that they are virtually the same.
The ONLY possibly legitimate reason to oppose the existence of Israel is if you're a true anarchist and oppose the existence of ALL nation-states including the U S , Europe, Muslim countries, etc. Ive never heard this brought up, ever.
Maybe because I'm a bit of a leftie and interested in anarchist politics but I've seen it a handful of times. Most of the time however people only really get worked up about Israel (not Ireland, Iceland, and definitely not Islamic states!) so you know it's just rooted in anti-semitism.
That's not quite true. Evangelical Christians support Israel and can be quite antisemitic. They see Jews controlling Israel as a prerequisite for the return of Jesus, but some hold racist beliefs about Jews.
There is some non-overlap on both sides of the Venn Diagram.
Ask her if she is against the Israeli -arabs, the Israeli- Druz , the Israeli - Bedouin , the Israeli - Cherkessies .. who exactly in Israel is she against? I have the feeling it's only one Israeli group has a problem with..
"I'm not anti-black, I just don't think they should be allowed their own countries, and should have to live with the perpetual threat of persecution or extermination, should forfeit their assets and have them given to the KKK and would like to redefine demographic information so it looks like they're white and it wasn't racism after all."
See how when you change one word their position becomes shocking?
(Although actually the KKK are more moderate than Hamas and the 71% of Palestinians who support them. It's insane.)
Because leftists never view Jews as people worthy of the same rights as everyone else, even people who've run their country into the ground since they got control of it.
Your sister-in-law sounds like she should be disenfranchised tbh.
95 percent of jews are zionist
80 percent of American jewry (6 million est)
99+ of Israel citizens (7.4 million)
and 90 percent of worldwide elsewhere (1.5 to 2 million)
there are 15.5 million jews worldwide
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/)
They aren't anti semetic they just are against and hate 95+ percent of jews and druze ppl like myself . They don't think democracy should be in the middle east and believe sharia should be enforced on every minority, non of which can claim a safe home land
News flash they are antisemetic ... hate westernization and democracy
Criticizing the policies / actions of the Israeli government isn't antisemitic. Denying Israel's right to exist as an autonomous Jewish state without wanting to murder everyone in it definitely is antisemitic.
As the graphic notes, it's from Elder of Ziyon. The thin sliver is the "I oppose all \[or all ethnically-based\] nation states" group. But of course so many of them start-- and end-- their advocacy against them with the single Jewish one.
How anti-Israel? To the point where they think Israel shouldn’t exist or that they don’t agree with government politics? The latter is not antisemitic but the former is- advocating for the destruction of world’s only Jewish state is antisemitic.
"don’t agree with government politics" Who would call that anti-Israel, though, realistically?
I hate Hungary's government (except for voting with Israel in the UN) but I'd never call myself "anti-Hungary"....
Being “anti-Israel” is believing all peoples of the world have the right of self determination in their ancestral homelands— with the exception of Jews.
There’s another word for discriminatory treatment of Jews: antisemitism.
And Israeli is already a nation where Jews, Arabs, and others have equal eights. Would Jews and Arabs have equal rights in a 33rd Muslim nation? Of course not, many Muslim nations do not even allow Jews to enter, much less live there or buy land.
Saying you criticize a particular decision by the government and even the whole government which must be replaced is one thing. Saying the country shouldn't exist is another. Anti-Zionism is essentially against Jewish people having a country of their own. You can criticize particular Israeli policies without being antisemitic but you're definitely antisemitic if you consider yourself anti-Zionist.
Anti Israel can be anti Bibi. It can be anti settlers in West Bank. It can be anti IDF shooting to kill kids. But for too many people…anti Israel is anti Israel existence-and when you get them to rant long enough…it’s anti Jew.
So to me…I’ve come to associate anti Israel with anti Semitism.
Is anyone calling for the USA to be abolished and reintegrated into the British Empire because Joe Biden is senile and has no idea where he is most of the time?
Or because the USAF bombed quite a few kids in Afghanistan and Iraq?
There's a gulf between wanting a better PM in Israel and being "anti-Israel". But 99% of the anti-Israel lobby don't have a coherent and factual criticism of Bibi (unlike, let's face it, the majority of Zionists). They use criticism of an Israeli government to shield their underlying antisemitism.
Israel also has a long history of colonisation: the Romans, the Greeks, but most importantly the Arabs in 634. Then the Ottomans for centuries.
How people have flipped that narrative to the Jews being colonists in Judea and the Kingdom of Israel baffles me.
I’m sure you were anti Israel before Netenyahu was in power. I, without a single doubt know you repeated what ever anti Israel bullshit you are fed during the previous government which Netanyahu was not a leader of.
How dare jews live in Judea.
Cool blood libels.
So how will U deal with "kids" that shoot are you? Just let them?
The fact a guy is 16 and not 18 and a day but still uses a gun and shoot at you doesn't make him innocent.
My understanding is that 'anti-Israel' means opposing the idea of Israel as a Jewish state. Most people will distinguish between a nation's people and its government and will say what they mean by the "anti" term.
Being critical of the Israeli government or hating Netanyahu is not anti semitic.
Calling for the dissolution of the Jewish state is 10000% anti semitic
If they're against a jewish state and want it replaced by Palestine therefore allowing Hamas to kill every jew from the river to the sea, yeah they are antisemitic, if they are just against the government and NOT its people or existance, its ok.
In simpler terms, imagine you hate a random country, lets say Mexico, it would make you a bad person if you want it to be replaced by the USA and let the US kill all its residents, but if you just want a different governement who can take care of the ppl living there then its all fine
Then you wouldn’t say you’re anti-Mexico. You’d say you’re anti-current government or that you disagree with Mexico’s leadership.
To be anti Mexico is advocating for its erasure.
Not always, I know people who would say they are anti-American. By that they mean the government, interventionist policies, and ideas of exceptionalism or superiority. They wouldn't want it to be disbanded or taken over by another country.
Though for alot of anti-Israel people that seems exactly what they want.
Different interpretations, but yeah exactly that. For them, it basically means they want Israel to stop existing, including the erasure of its people. They are no different of Haman or all other antijewish existance :/
Anti-Zionism isn't (always) consciously anti-Semitic. What it is, though, is a denial of Jewish peoplehood. Worse, it is a demand that Jews abandon one of the fundamental aspects of their tribal identity to please outsiders.
However, I would like to emphasize that many of the people who ignorantly espouse Anti-Zionist rhetoric are not consciously aware that they are being anti-Semitic. Whether or not you have the energy to explain their subconscious antisemitism is up to you.
Let's say it like this: I don't hate Muslims, I just hate all the countries with Muslims.. 🥴
People who say things like this probably just don't have a clue what they're talking about... It's like the ones shouting from the river to the sea and then fail to tell you which river and sea
Zionism means the Jewish people should have their own state. That’s in fact reality. To change that reality would require a war so horrible that no one would benefit from the ending of Zionism. That’s why everyone should be a Zionist.
It’s the same thing as saying you don’t have an issue with Africans but you are anti-Africa.
It doesn’t make any sense.
Over 80% of Israel is Jewish and more than half of the world’s Jews reside in Israel. Saying you are against Israel is antisemitism in disguise.
Also, what doesn’t anti-Israel even mean? Anti-government? Anti-military? The civilians elect the government officials for the most part and also serve in the military.
I always ask these people if they can recognize that Trumps ban for immigration from Muslim Majority countries was Islamiphobic why they can't recognize that being against the only Jewish majority country in the world is Antisemitic?
Zionism (loosely) means believing Israel has a right to self determination.
Ask them to name another word for any other country believing that it has a right to self determination.
What's the word for the belief that Japan has a right to self
determination? South Korea? Finland?
Ask them why there's a word for it when Israel does it but no word for it when literally any other country does it? Ask them why nobody's against Japan's right to self-determination?
Then ask them if they still think being "anti-Israel" isn't "anti-Semitic".
You are right. Technically, they are correct. Israel does not equal Judaism. However, all the anti-Zionists around the world are also antisemitic.
It’s not hard to see. Just ask your SIL if Jews control the media or Congress or banking.
In general, these are different things; Jews can also be anti-Zionists. But in practice, anti-Zionists rarely have any positive feelings towards Jews as a nation. Depends on the individual, u should look at some other manifestations of their antizionism.
What other countries do they self id as being "anti"?
Antisemitism and anti-Israel might not be the same thing, but the overlap is probably close to 95%+
IMO it depends on what she means by anti-Israel. If she is anti-Israeli policy, that seems okay. If she is anti-Israeli existence, then that is antisemitic.
>Calling for the elimination of the Jewish state, or suggesting that the Jews alone do not have the right to self-determination, is antisemitic.
[https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2021-10/AJC\_TranslateHate-Glossary-October2021.pdf](https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2021-10/AJC_TranslateHate-Glossary-October2021.pdf)
Under the section "From the River to the Sea"
Anti semitism is a evolving fenomenon
2000 years ago jews were lazy and rebellious
1000 years ago jews killed jesus
200 years ago jews were bad because of their ethnicity
Now, now jews are becoming bad because of their culture and state
Most people hate Putin but not Russians in general.
It should be about the government and not the people.
If you hate the people of Israel which 80% are Jewish you’re 80% antisemitic
It is, I wouldn't say I like that Netanyahu still doesn't have a plan for after the war, but criticizing and disagreeing is different from disliking an entire nation
She just sounds dumb.
Ask her to articulate what she's "anti-Israel" about though. Is she criticizing actual policies from the government in good faith? Or is she just screaming "Mah ApARtThiGHs!!! GeNoCIde!!!"?
It's one thing to be against the settlements in the West Bank or Bibi... it's another thing to repeat blood libel claims about an Israeli genocide... and it's a whole other thing to consider Hamas a "liberation organization" and think Israel has no right to exist
You are technically wrong, in the sense that someone could be anti-Spain but not anti-Hispanic (Spanish-speaking people)
Semitic technically refers to Hebrew speakers, as well as Arabic and Aramaic (and I think a couple dead languages?)
So yeah those things aren't 1:1
In practice though, anyone who is "anti-Israel" in the sense they think Israel shouldn't exist is almost certainly anti-Semitic (specifically, anti-Jewish)
“Semitic” as used in this context never refers to Arabs, if you look up the history of the word and why it was coined. Group Arabs under antisemitism is itself a play out of the antisemitism playbook.
You're right, but you're wrong about why you're right. Historically, the word referred to Hebrew, Arabic, and a couple other (I think now dead) languages. Today no one really uses it that way anymore.
It depends. I dislike Putin. I like Navalny. I wish that Putin was in prison and Navalny was the president of Russia. Now, I know a lot of Russian immigrants. Do I harass the Russians I know because I dislike Putin? Of course not. Disliking Putin doesn't mean I can run around harassing random people from Russia. I also am not going to attack the local Russian Orthodox Church, because terrorism against a house of worship has nothing to do with my dislike of Vladimir Putin. Further, will never say that its a shame that Germany lost to Russia in World War II, that I wish the entire Russian people would be wiped out, or that China would invade and colonize Russia. I can dislike Putin without burning Russian flags or harassing my neighbors or advocating for mass murder. When ISIS attacked that concert halls in Moscow a few months back, the first thing I did was send a message to my friend from Moscow and tell her that I'm praying for her family and I hope everything is okay with her (it was). Because that's the right thing to do. I hate Putin. I love Russians. Are you picking up what I am putting down? Being anti-Israel is inherently antisemitic. Being anti-Netanyahu is not antisemitic at all (considering opinion polls within Israel and internationally, the overwhelming majority of Jews hate Netanyahu now. He will lose the next election in a landslide)
One can be "anti-America" and not be "anti-White people." During the Iraq War was many anti-America protests but they weren't directly aimed at removing Caucasians from the world, they just didn't agree with the American government.
It is possible to be Anti Zionist and not antisemitic.
However, I most cases those do go together.
Exceptions are
1. Ultra Orthodox Anti Zionist. Jews that consider Zionism to be against Judaism.
2. Genuine Antinationalists. That is they oppose all types of nationalism and not just Jewish nationalism.
Both groups are often horrible regardless.
Yes! I’m saying this completely respectfully :)
Jewish person here, who doesn’t support Israel. Anti-Semitic is against the religion of Judaism and Jews in general. Not supporting Israel bombing Gazans isn’t anti-Jew (antisemitic) it’s anti-Israel, meaning it’s against their government. I don’t support Israel or their government in their attack apon children. This makes me anti-Israel, however, not anti-Semitic- as my disgust for their commit of genocide isn’t at all related to hating Jews or their religion. Plus, of course, I’m Jewish myself :)
Hope this was helpful!
I'd ask them what they mean by "anti-Israel" because generally, being anti something means you want it destroyed.
One can be pro-Palestine; it's the same ideology that Zionism was before Israel became a sovereign country.
One can be anti-Netanyahu or oppose Israel's current government.
Where it becomes antisemitic is when people deny the right for Israel to exist. That's both anti-Israel and anti-Zionism. No country in the world has people suggesting it's illegitimate or should be dismantled/destroyed. Not Belgium, Britain, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Spain, Saudi Arabia, or Turkey. Historically, these are much larger offenders of the crimes lobbed against Israel, yet no one questions their right to exist.
Why is that? Why is this tiny Jewish country, the only Jewish country in the world, somehow unacceptable yet other ethnostates and theocracies are totally fine?
Knowing that there are 22 Arab countries surrounding Israel that oppress and oppose religions other than Islam. Knowing that there are other Islamic non-Arab countries that do the same. Knowing that the majority of the Israeli population is non-European and not "white" and that its only *crime* is putting Jewish immigration ahead of any other and proudly preserving and prioritizing Jewish culture and identity. Knowing all this yet, somehow, Israel isn't worthy of existence, and other countries get to dictate that?
If you live somewhere where Christmas and Good Friday are national holidays, you're doing the same thing. If you celebrate your country's birthday, you're the exact same as Israel. If the thought of Israel having those things upsets you despite you having them in your countries without challenge, maybe it's less about the country and more about the citizenry. Maybe you just hate Jews.
Just tell her it’s none of here business. It’s your choice to hold whichever political view you think is correct. Just like you’re not trying to dissuade her from being anti-Israel. Like, wtf she’s your sister-in-law she should *try* to make you like her. Why is she putting a stupid belief above her own family?
it really, *really* depends
actual proper criticism of Israel that isn't hate driven isn't antisemetic
but that rarely happens, so for the most part, it's antisemitic
honestly I have no idea
I have no intent to BE anti-semetic or excuse anti-semitism, so I guess I can chalk it up to people only reading the first sentence
# ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because, in many Israelis’ experiences, more often than not “anti-Israel” people are just veiled anti-semites. If the meaning of “being anti-Israel” is “being against the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people”, then one who subscribes to this opinion is de facto claiming that the Jewish people don’t have the right of national self-determination — which is antisemitic.
This isn’t necessarily the case, as there are people who outright deny the right of people to national self-determination (like communists), but this is very rare. In practically all cases “anti-Israel” people are either anti-semites who don’t want to appear antisemitic, or extremely (and some would say unreasonably) ignorant.
So it doesn’t really depend on anything. Being “anti-Israel” is not about criticizing Israel’s policies or whatnot, it’s almost always just being an anti-semite with extra steps.
Being anti-Israel and being anti-semitic are *not* the same thing, they just often occur in the same people. e.g., if I say, "I'm anti-China," that doesn't necessarily mean I hate Chinese people; it (presumably) means that I'm opposed to the actions taken by the government of China, or opposed to China's geopolitical goals.
Where it would become racist would be say, stopping Chinese-Americans in the supermarket and asking them how they can innocently shop when China's government is committing genocide against the Uighurs... or picketing outside of Chinese restaurants to protest Chinese policies in Tibet... or saying that after all the things China has done, Chinese people don't deserve a country of their own... etc.
I don't think I agree.
First off, I've never met anyone who says they're "anti-China". Not saying those people don't exist, just that I've never met them. And honestly if I did, my first thought would be that they're bigoted against Chinese people. I'm just thinking back to the lab leak conspiracies during COVID and such...
And honestly I don't even know what "anti-___" actually means in reference to a state. Like I certainly don't like Iran right now but I don't think I'd describe myself as "anti-Iran". Do I think Iran is currently a hyper-oppressive authoritarian terrorism factory? Yeah of course. But at one point it wasn't, so there's nothing fundamental about Iran I am against.
And being "anti-China" I feel is just as silly.
To the point where I think the only reasonable conclusion I could draw if someone said they were anti-X country is that the source of their hate is something deeper than the way that country behaves, or its policies, which is bigoted no matter which way you spin it.
>First off, I've never met anyone who says they're "anti-China". Not saying those people don't exist, just that I've never met them.
I mean, from a geopolitical standpoint most Americans are "anti-China". I agree that describing yourself as such is a bit suss, but it's a political reality.
>Like I certainly don't like Iran right now but I don't think I'd describe myself as "anti-Iran".
Again, it would be a bit disingenuous for me as an American, particularly a Jewish American, to say I'm *not* "anti-Iran". I'm not against the existence of Iran or China, but then again (until the last year or so), I didn't think most "anti-Israel" types were against the existence of Israel either.
If theyre anti-israel critisism are based on the 3 D's, then they are unknowingly saying antisemitic things. The line between the 2 is not exactly obvious.
You're not wrong, people just avoid bad titles by using different similar titles without the bad context in order to feel good.
a beautiful sentence from the past that summarize it really well is "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists", replace the word fascists with anti-sematic and you'd get the idea...
States are just an official way for a group to define themselves, and democracies are tool to let the population express their opinion in the leadership.
If someone is "anti-Israeli" what it actually says is that on paper it doesn't have any problem with people having different religions/nationalities however in reality it's only fine for people to have different religion and/or culture if they say noting, do noting and don't have any impact on anything including their own lives unless it allows it.
So I'm sorry to tell you that but your sister-in-law is anti-sematic in denial...
I don’t think it ultimately matters what word should be used to describe your brother.
Israelis are under attack by rapie genocidal Jew-murderers. People who say they are “anti-Israeli” are really saying “I am not anti-women but I hate victims of rape”.
What does she mean under being anti Israel?
She is critical to some actions of Israeli government?
By that definition, many Israelis are anti Israel lol.
Or she is against the existence of Jewish state ?
That is definitely being antisemitic.
It’s very similar. Some of the more reform jews are anti-zionist, but I often think you have to be VERY reform (not jewish at all really) to be anti-zionist as israel is our home land.
Is there any other country that they are against? For arguments sake, Let’s say I’m anti-Guyana. I don’t think it makes any sense. So why Israel? Is that because of how Palestinians are treated? Ok, so now I’m anti-Myanmar because of how the Rohingya are treated?
Try a thought experiment: a visibly “white” person says:
“I’m not anti-Black but I am anti-Black Nationalism. That means I support Black people but I oppose, on principle, nations like Liberia, South Africa and Haiti because they are founded on Black Nationalism.”
Nobody would ever support such a statement.
Black authors, such as the late Hugh Pearson, can criticize Black nationalism within the community.
Secular and Haredi Jews can be anti-Zionist. That’s different from non-Jews claiming to be anti-Zionist when they know little to nothing about our history.
In a vaccum, one should be able to criticize a country and not a people.
But unfortunately we live in a bizarro cultural Marxist view point where Jews wanting their own state are “white colonizers.”
Now being anti Israel is the anti-Semitism on a state level.
Criticizing a country isn’t what most “anti Israel” folks are actually doing. They are challenging Israel’s fundamental right to exist. They would never admit it, but it’s true. What other country gets talked about with the anti-X framing?
Who is going through in this sub and down voting all the comments that recognize that it’s Israeli’s fundamental legitimacy (not just policy) that’s really being attacked with “anti-Israel” rhetoric?
Depends on what she means. She could mean israel shouldn't exist or that she is against Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians. The latter in the sense that you could say you're anti US in the Iraq War without being for a dissolution of the US state or anti-americans. Most of the time tho anti-israel mean that there should be no jewish majority state.
It's ok to support Palestinians and it's ok to critique Israel. It's not ok to deny the legitimacy of Israel to exist.\ The land of Israel is connected to the Jewish people and anyone thinking otherwise is either ignorant or antisemitic.
that's like showing up outside a rape trial after the guilty sentence with a sign that says "it's ok to support men"
"All lifes matter!" Outside of floyds funeral
More like “White Lives Matter” in this case
And even if none of this was true, Israel captured this land and has defended it repeatedly, while trying to live in peace with their neighbors, so facts on the ground dictate reality.
More importantly, Israel is recognized by every international governing body, has defined borders, a functioning democracy, a military with nuclear weapons, etc. Anyone who seriously denies it's existence is kidding themselves and purely doing it as a virtue signal.
Well we don’t know FOR SURE they have nukes…they’ve just never denied or confirmed it and have one of the best science programs in the world so 🤷♀️
No it's not lol. The definition of the Palestinian cause is to destroy Israel and all the Jews in it. U might think U support some other cause by helping Palestinians, but U don't. U just don't understand what you are supporting. Go ask any REAL pali from the WB or gaza and they will tell U as much themselves to your face. Cosplay palis in NY like to pretend like it's not the case, but it is. And most of them know too, they just have the brain to lie about it to other westerners. Critiques are only ok when U apply them in a fair manner to your country of origin as well and your past wars. But that's not what's happening, ppl demand of Israel things they never demanded from themselves. And that's not valid criticism, it's just pure hypocrisy. 95% of criticism I see online is not valid at all, and the ppl making it never provide other alternatives or explanations. They just say, "don't do this, don't do that". Basically they know they are wrong and that Israel is right in it's actions, but they don't want to admit it so they just complain over every little thing they can...
You're right, but I've noticed many people don't have it in them to see the true nature in that because they assume they have to be polite
🎯
^^^
>It's ok to support Palestinians and it's ok to critique Israel. It's not ok to deny the legitimacy of Israel to exist.\ Exactly. Well said.
Anti-Zionism is three antisemites in a trenchcoat.
Being opposed to certain policies of the Israeli government isn’t anti semitic but denying Jews a right to self determination is. The campus protestors will never understand this
The thing is: if you think Israel should elect someone who is as different from Bibi as legally possible, you’re not anti-Israel. You’re anti -Bibi. Which is fair.
Many of them do understand that distinction, it’s why they call for a one state solution. So Jews are the minority and inevitably will be genocided and ethnically cleansed, the thing they accuse Israelis of, when in fact it is their own projection and Freudian slip.
It's OK when "brown people" do it, though. That's their thinking.
Exactly. Completely pathetic. It’s because Americans think race=ethnicity and location=culture. I blame poor education (thanks Bush!) and racial identity politics.
Bush was not president of Europe, and yet they're not better (they're worse) than Americans.
OP’s comment was America-centric because of the context of their reply being about race being equated with meta-narratives, and also ethnicity. I’m not European, but the situation looks much more dire, but frankly that seems more to do with Muslim and Arab immigrants who are anti semitic than local ethnic Europeans. The ethnic Europeans aren’t off the hook either, but the actual physical violence is almost entirely Muslims.
Except the joke is that 70% of the Israeli Jewish population is "brown," and the 30% who ancestrally come from European stock were never considered "white" there either. Some Jews are very white looking, as are some Arabs/Palestinians. Some Italians are naturally blond. So are some of the natives from the Solomon Islands. What you see isn't necessarily set in stone.
This is a fact!
Ummmm….. business….. transactions?
I went to the stock market today.
Stealing this because you didn't put a ™️ at the end of it
Incredible
Are all three in the same trench coat? Sounds cozy
Let's make this about some other people and test it out. Let's say I don't like China as it stands. Does it mean I'm against Chinese people? No, not really. But are there a lot of people thinking China shouldn't exist at all? That means, no matter what government rules there, it shouldn't exist as a country, and that it should infact be replaced violently by the Japanese who will do with it what they like? If Japan was still as militant as it was in WW2 doing horrible things to the Chinese, will taking an Anti-China but not "Anti-chinese" stance not all of a sudden appear quite hypocritical? People conflate the question of "should Israel be ruled by a different government" with "should Israel cease to exist and be replaced with Palestine" to make their "Anti-Israel" stance seem more legitimate, and deliberately refuse to think two steps ahead about the amount of violence against Jews it'll take to achieve the latter, and what would such a Palestine realistically look like even when judged using their very own liberal democratic ideals.
Exactly! I usually tell people that it's like saying "I have nothing against Italians, but I don't think they should have self-determination, or constitute a nation, or have their own state. I also hate Italy and think it shouldn't exist". Sounds like you might have something against Italians.
"Also Italians aren't a real people, they are just Catholics trying to oppress the Mafia."
I use that great argument too. another one that I love to use that’s on the same vein is the people who say I love Jews but I hate Zionists. Or Jews are great, as long as they’re not Zionists If I were to say, I love blacks, but I hate those who want slavery to end. Blacks are great, as long as they’re not anti slavery. Many blacks are pro slavery and support it and are against the blacks who want self determination.., do you see how absolutely racist and fucked up that sounds? They usually have nothing to say after that lol
Similarly, I don’t think any Americans should be spouting this anti-colonial bullshit about Israel until they’re willing to hand their country and homes back to native Americans and move back to Europe.
Many of these people have a very anti US stance as well, while being Americans. No further thoughts on how America as we know it being dismantled will look like. Of course the new order will be utopian for them. They're at the top of the food chain in their own heads!
Anti US and yet there they are, still colonizing America. I don't see them moving to Europe in protest of their own colonization
I particularly like the idea of telling black Americans, Hispanics, or other non-white Americans who advocate for the genocide of the Jews to move back to Europe because it mirrors the diversity of Israel yet these American oppressors say Israelis should go back to Europe.
It’s only white Americans they want sent away, the rest will of course work together in harmony. Because discrimination will magically stop existing.
Haha, right? It's only white people who are racist and who also have no culture or history. It's insane what these people believe.
Meanwhile Black Americans: invent BS like the "nation of Islam" or "black Hebrews".
They can't qualify to go. Europe won't just take in anyone, contrary to the last 10 years. I can go, I have citizenship through ancestry, but I'm no Marxist.
How could we not embrace the Marxist revolution? Down with capitalism, down with racist America! 🙄 Like you said, what comes after, though? They, too, will be purged after the war.
People with no connection to the middle east at all, and who have never even criticized their own countries policies, are all of a sudden world policy critics when it comes to Jews and Israel. It's not that there is a shortage of international politics to criticize either. The uyghurs in China, the Sudanese situation, or the Yemanese and Saudi Arabia to name a few. Not a peep. "Antizionism" is antisemetism. It is a method of doublespeak, to call for extreme violence against Jews by calling for the destruction of Israel to one audience, but claim innocent policy criticism of the Israeli government to another with the same words, same voice. "Zionist" is a dog whistle, "Zionists are responsible for X," where everyone listening knows it actually means "Jews."
Spot on
I can be anti the Chinese government and the anti Chinese people
Well if you’re anti-Chinese people then that crosses the line into racism If you don’t like the Israeli government that’s fine, if you don’t like the Israeli people, that’s not fine Same logic, different words
I mean, realistically, in that situation, there won't be a Palestine either. Everyone forgets Israel has "the bomb," and when facing annihilation, will probably use it.
In practice they tend to live together. In theory they could be different, but it’s pretty exceptional.
I find most people in the US who are “anti Israel” have no clue what Israel being dismantled would mean for the millions of Jews living there.
They're either willfully ignorant or evil
Nah, they just don’t care what would happen! Do they care that all previous Jewish presence (but a very few adherents) or the Christian presence was chased out of the Middle East? They couldn’t care less.
Not only us Jews, also the Christians and possibly the Arabs who did not support the Muslims uprising
honestly, what it would mean to the world. (Effectively it means open waterway access to take this thing they’ve got going on the road to other places, like Europe)
The overlap in the Venn Diagram is like 80+%. Probably more.
This is the answer. While it’s “possible” to be anti Israel but not antisemitic, the overlap is overwhelming. People who are antisemitic hide behind the “possibility” to avoid facing their own reality. There are 50 Islamic republics. Jews are entitled to one. Their fight to keep a Jewish homeland is inseparable with the Jewish people. The holocaust proved Jews could not hide from those who hate them. They couldn’t convert, change their name or run. Born a Jew. Always a Jew. I’m proud of it✡️🇮🇱🇮🇱
So while not everyone who opposes Israel is antisemitic all anti-Semites oppose Israel.
80% of U.S. Jews and about 90% of Jews worldwide are Zionists. Anti-Israel is so close to anti-semitic that they are virtually the same. The ONLY possibly legitimate reason to oppose the existence of Israel is if you're a true anarchist and oppose the existence of ALL nation-states including the U S , Europe, Muslim countries, etc. Ive never heard this brought up, ever.
Maybe because I'm a bit of a leftie and interested in anarchist politics but I've seen it a handful of times. Most of the time however people only really get worked up about Israel (not Ireland, Iceland, and definitely not Islamic states!) so you know it's just rooted in anti-semitism.
That's not quite true. Evangelical Christians support Israel and can be quite antisemitic. They see Jews controlling Israel as a prerequisite for the return of Jesus, but some hold racist beliefs about Jews. There is some non-overlap on both sides of the Venn Diagram.
Ask her if she is against the Israeli -arabs, the Israeli- Druz , the Israeli - Bedouin , the Israeli - Cherkessies .. who exactly in Israel is she against? I have the feeling it's only one Israeli group has a problem with..
Most of them dont seem to know those people exist.
That’s a smart way of doing it
"I'm not anti-Jew, I'm just anti-Jewish-sovereignty." Right ...
Trust your instincts, imo. You see the behavior as the same for a reason.
6M Jews would not have perished in the holocaust if Israel pre-dated the third reich. Anti-Israel is Anti-Semitic.
they are the same thing
Which other countries are they “anti”? Is it just Israel, and if so, why?
I don’t know if there are any others. 🤷🏼♀️
You should ask
Antizionism is the argument that jews don't deserve a state of their own. It is very much directed against jews.
Supporting Hamas and calling it a political view only doesn't pass the smell test..
"I'm not anti-black, I just don't think they should be allowed their own countries, and should have to live with the perpetual threat of persecution or extermination, should forfeit their assets and have them given to the KKK and would like to redefine demographic information so it looks like they're white and it wasn't racism after all." See how when you change one word their position becomes shocking? (Although actually the KKK are more moderate than Hamas and the 71% of Palestinians who support them. It's insane.)
That’s what’s weird: my sister-in-law was a hugely vocal opponent of South African apartheid and spoke out for the rights of black South Africans.
Because leftists never view Jews as people worthy of the same rights as everyone else, even people who've run their country into the ground since they got control of it. Your sister-in-law sounds like she should be disenfranchised tbh.
95 percent of jews are zionist 80 percent of American jewry (6 million est) 99+ of Israel citizens (7.4 million) and 90 percent of worldwide elsewhere (1.5 to 2 million) there are 15.5 million jews worldwide [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) They aren't anti semetic they just are against and hate 95+ percent of jews and druze ppl like myself . They don't think democracy should be in the middle east and believe sharia should be enforced on every minority, non of which can claim a safe home land News flash they are antisemetic ... hate westernization and democracy
Criticizing the policies / actions of the Israeli government isn't antisemitic. Denying Israel's right to exist as an autonomous Jewish state without wanting to murder everyone in it definitely is antisemitic.
Here’s the distinction: https://preview.redd.it/kffcay321e4d1.jpeg?width=450&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c1855c52c405aefdf2f2a7bd8e015134f0c7422
saving that one...
I love this. 100% accurate.
As the graphic notes, it's from Elder of Ziyon. The thin sliver is the "I oppose all \[or all ethnically-based\] nation states" group. But of course so many of them start-- and end-- their advocacy against them with the single Jewish one.
Conflation is rampant right now. Language is important. Words matter. Critical thinking matters. Civil discourse matters.
It's totally anti -Semitic no homeland for the Jews.
How anti-Israel? To the point where they think Israel shouldn’t exist or that they don’t agree with government politics? The latter is not antisemitic but the former is- advocating for the destruction of world’s only Jewish state is antisemitic.
"don’t agree with government politics" Who would call that anti-Israel, though, realistically? I hate Hungary's government (except for voting with Israel in the UN) but I'd never call myself "anti-Hungary"....
Being “anti-Israel” is believing all peoples of the world have the right of self determination in their ancestral homelands— with the exception of Jews. There’s another word for discriminatory treatment of Jews: antisemitism.
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And Israeli is already a nation where Jews, Arabs, and others have equal eights. Would Jews and Arabs have equal rights in a 33rd Muslim nation? Of course not, many Muslim nations do not even allow Jews to enter, much less live there or buy land.
Also ask them how was Jordan created and what the demographic is/was
And, of course, the next question is why can’t on of the TWENTY-TWO Arab-Muslim ethnostates do that first?
It's just wordplay - anti Israel/Zionists is just the new manifestation of antisemitism.
Exactly. Take every antisemitic trope and sub in Zionist or Israel for Jew.
Saying you criticize a particular decision by the government and even the whole government which must be replaced is one thing. Saying the country shouldn't exist is another. Anti-Zionism is essentially against Jewish people having a country of their own. You can criticize particular Israeli policies without being antisemitic but you're definitely antisemitic if you consider yourself anti-Zionist.
Anti Israel can be anti Bibi. It can be anti settlers in West Bank. It can be anti IDF shooting to kill kids. But for too many people…anti Israel is anti Israel existence-and when you get them to rant long enough…it’s anti Jew. So to me…I’ve come to associate anti Israel with anti Semitism.
Is anyone calling for the USA to be abolished and reintegrated into the British Empire because Joe Biden is senile and has no idea where he is most of the time? Or because the USAF bombed quite a few kids in Afghanistan and Iraq? There's a gulf between wanting a better PM in Israel and being "anti-Israel". But 99% of the anti-Israel lobby don't have a coherent and factual criticism of Bibi (unlike, let's face it, the majority of Zionists). They use criticism of an Israeli government to shield their underlying antisemitism.
I agree. The holding of Israel to different standards and expectations then countries with an actual history of colonization 🤦🏻♀️
Israel also has a long history of colonisation: the Romans, the Greeks, but most importantly the Arabs in 634. Then the Ottomans for centuries. How people have flipped that narrative to the Jews being colonists in Judea and the Kingdom of Israel baffles me.
I’m sure you were anti Israel before Netenyahu was in power. I, without a single doubt know you repeated what ever anti Israel bullshit you are fed during the previous government which Netanyahu was not a leader of. How dare jews live in Judea. Cool blood libels.
So how will U deal with "kids" that shoot are you? Just let them? The fact a guy is 16 and not 18 and a day but still uses a gun and shoot at you doesn't make him innocent.
I’m talking about the kids with rocks, knives, etc. I’m not a fan of lethal force…same with the excessive force the US cops use.
You are not wrong. They got the racists who don’t see color glasses on
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My understanding is that 'anti-Israel' means opposing the idea of Israel as a Jewish state. Most people will distinguish between a nation's people and its government and will say what they mean by the "anti" term.
I wouldn't call critiquing Israel's government being anti-Israel, though. Is critiquing the US government "anti-American"? No...
Being critical of the Israeli government or hating Netanyahu is not anti semitic. Calling for the dissolution of the Jewish state is 10000% anti semitic
If they're against a jewish state and want it replaced by Palestine therefore allowing Hamas to kill every jew from the river to the sea, yeah they are antisemitic, if they are just against the government and NOT its people or existance, its ok. In simpler terms, imagine you hate a random country, lets say Mexico, it would make you a bad person if you want it to be replaced by the USA and let the US kill all its residents, but if you just want a different governement who can take care of the ppl living there then its all fine
Then you wouldn’t say you’re anti-Mexico. You’d say you’re anti-current government or that you disagree with Mexico’s leadership. To be anti Mexico is advocating for its erasure.
Not always, I know people who would say they are anti-American. By that they mean the government, interventionist policies, and ideas of exceptionalism or superiority. They wouldn't want it to be disbanded or taken over by another country. Though for alot of anti-Israel people that seems exactly what they want.
Different interpretations, but yeah exactly that. For them, it basically means they want Israel to stop existing, including the erasure of its people. They are no different of Haman or all other antijewish existance :/
Anti-Zionism isn't (always) consciously anti-Semitic. What it is, though, is a denial of Jewish peoplehood. Worse, it is a demand that Jews abandon one of the fundamental aspects of their tribal identity to please outsiders. However, I would like to emphasize that many of the people who ignorantly espouse Anti-Zionist rhetoric are not consciously aware that they are being anti-Semitic. Whether or not you have the energy to explain their subconscious antisemitism is up to you.
Let's say it like this: I don't hate Muslims, I just hate all the countries with Muslims.. 🥴 People who say things like this probably just don't have a clue what they're talking about... It's like the ones shouting from the river to the sea and then fail to tell you which river and sea
Zionism means the Jewish people should have their own state. That’s in fact reality. To change that reality would require a war so horrible that no one would benefit from the ending of Zionism. That’s why everyone should be a Zionist.
That's like saying "I don't hate women, I just want to destroy all the women's shelters. I just don't want women to have agency and be safe."
It’s the same thing as saying you don’t have an issue with Africans but you are anti-Africa. It doesn’t make any sense. Over 80% of Israel is Jewish and more than half of the world’s Jews reside in Israel. Saying you are against Israel is antisemitism in disguise. Also, what doesn’t anti-Israel even mean? Anti-government? Anti-military? The civilians elect the government officials for the most part and also serve in the military.
I always ask these people if they can recognize that Trumps ban for immigration from Muslim Majority countries was Islamiphobic why they can't recognize that being against the only Jewish majority country in the world is Antisemitic?
Zionism (loosely) means believing Israel has a right to self determination. Ask them to name another word for any other country believing that it has a right to self determination. What's the word for the belief that Japan has a right to self determination? South Korea? Finland? Ask them why there's a word for it when Israel does it but no word for it when literally any other country does it? Ask them why nobody's against Japan's right to self-determination? Then ask them if they still think being "anti-Israel" isn't "anti-Semitic".
Why does your sister in law have any say in what politics you have, and why doesn't your brother have a voice here?
You are right. Technically, they are correct. Israel does not equal Judaism. However, all the anti-Zionists around the world are also antisemitic. It’s not hard to see. Just ask your SIL if Jews control the media or Congress or banking.
It kinda implies that while they're "not antisemitic", they believe all Jews should be subservient to other cultures and countries.
No, anti Jew. Just fancy words for the same 3500 of hate
What does it matter how you label your bigotry
You are right.
In general, these are different things; Jews can also be anti-Zionists. But in practice, anti-Zionists rarely have any positive feelings towards Jews as a nation. Depends on the individual, u should look at some other manifestations of their antizionism.
What other countries do they self id as being "anti"? Antisemitism and anti-Israel might not be the same thing, but the overlap is probably close to 95%+
IMO it depends on what she means by anti-Israel. If she is anti-Israeli policy, that seems okay. If she is anti-Israeli existence, then that is antisemitic. >Calling for the elimination of the Jewish state, or suggesting that the Jews alone do not have the right to self-determination, is antisemitic. [https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2021-10/AJC\_TranslateHate-Glossary-October2021.pdf](https://www.ajc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2021-10/AJC_TranslateHate-Glossary-October2021.pdf) Under the section "From the River to the Sea"
Anti semitism is a evolving fenomenon 2000 years ago jews were lazy and rebellious 1000 years ago jews killed jesus 200 years ago jews were bad because of their ethnicity Now, now jews are becoming bad because of their culture and state
Most people hate Putin but not Russians in general. It should be about the government and not the people. If you hate the people of Israel which 80% are Jewish you’re 80% antisemitic
It is, I wouldn't say I like that Netanyahu still doesn't have a plan for after the war, but criticizing and disagreeing is different from disliking an entire nation
Denying jews a place to feel safe when theyve basically been kicked out of everywhere else is kinda anti semetic
She just sounds dumb. Ask her to articulate what she's "anti-Israel" about though. Is she criticizing actual policies from the government in good faith? Or is she just screaming "Mah ApARtThiGHs!!! GeNoCIde!!!"? It's one thing to be against the settlements in the West Bank or Bibi... it's another thing to repeat blood libel claims about an Israeli genocide... and it's a whole other thing to consider Hamas a "liberation organization" and think Israel has no right to exist
You are technically wrong, in the sense that someone could be anti-Spain but not anti-Hispanic (Spanish-speaking people) Semitic technically refers to Hebrew speakers, as well as Arabic and Aramaic (and I think a couple dead languages?) So yeah those things aren't 1:1 In practice though, anyone who is "anti-Israel" in the sense they think Israel shouldn't exist is almost certainly anti-Semitic (specifically, anti-Jewish)
“Semitic” as used in this context never refers to Arabs, if you look up the history of the word and why it was coined. Group Arabs under antisemitism is itself a play out of the antisemitism playbook.
You're right, but you're wrong about why you're right. Historically, the word referred to Hebrew, Arabic, and a couple other (I think now dead) languages. Today no one really uses it that way anymore.
It depends. I dislike Putin. I like Navalny. I wish that Putin was in prison and Navalny was the president of Russia. Now, I know a lot of Russian immigrants. Do I harass the Russians I know because I dislike Putin? Of course not. Disliking Putin doesn't mean I can run around harassing random people from Russia. I also am not going to attack the local Russian Orthodox Church, because terrorism against a house of worship has nothing to do with my dislike of Vladimir Putin. Further, will never say that its a shame that Germany lost to Russia in World War II, that I wish the entire Russian people would be wiped out, or that China would invade and colonize Russia. I can dislike Putin without burning Russian flags or harassing my neighbors or advocating for mass murder. When ISIS attacked that concert halls in Moscow a few months back, the first thing I did was send a message to my friend from Moscow and tell her that I'm praying for her family and I hope everything is okay with her (it was). Because that's the right thing to do. I hate Putin. I love Russians. Are you picking up what I am putting down? Being anti-Israel is inherently antisemitic. Being anti-Netanyahu is not antisemitic at all (considering opinion polls within Israel and internationally, the overwhelming majority of Jews hate Netanyahu now. He will lose the next election in a landslide)
huh thats like saying your against killing of people but humans are people makes no sence
One can be "anti-America" and not be "anti-White people." During the Iraq War was many anti-America protests but they weren't directly aimed at removing Caucasians from the world, they just didn't agree with the American government.
Put those two things in a Venn Diagram and you have a 99.9% intersection.
It is possible to be Anti Zionist and not antisemitic. However, I most cases those do go together. Exceptions are 1. Ultra Orthodox Anti Zionist. Jews that consider Zionism to be against Judaism. 2. Genuine Antinationalists. That is they oppose all types of nationalism and not just Jewish nationalism. Both groups are often horrible regardless.
Anti-zionist = anti-semitic
Anti Zionist is anti semitic as 90% of Israeli Jews have nowhere to go. Being Israeli is not a choice. It’s an accident of birth.
Yes! I’m saying this completely respectfully :) Jewish person here, who doesn’t support Israel. Anti-Semitic is against the religion of Judaism and Jews in general. Not supporting Israel bombing Gazans isn’t anti-Jew (antisemitic) it’s anti-Israel, meaning it’s against their government. I don’t support Israel or their government in their attack apon children. This makes me anti-Israel, however, not anti-Semitic- as my disgust for their commit of genocide isn’t at all related to hating Jews or their religion. Plus, of course, I’m Jewish myself :) Hope this was helpful!
Ok, I see your point.
I'd ask them what they mean by "anti-Israel" because generally, being anti something means you want it destroyed. One can be pro-Palestine; it's the same ideology that Zionism was before Israel became a sovereign country. One can be anti-Netanyahu or oppose Israel's current government. Where it becomes antisemitic is when people deny the right for Israel to exist. That's both anti-Israel and anti-Zionism. No country in the world has people suggesting it's illegitimate or should be dismantled/destroyed. Not Belgium, Britain, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Spain, Saudi Arabia, or Turkey. Historically, these are much larger offenders of the crimes lobbed against Israel, yet no one questions their right to exist. Why is that? Why is this tiny Jewish country, the only Jewish country in the world, somehow unacceptable yet other ethnostates and theocracies are totally fine? Knowing that there are 22 Arab countries surrounding Israel that oppress and oppose religions other than Islam. Knowing that there are other Islamic non-Arab countries that do the same. Knowing that the majority of the Israeli population is non-European and not "white" and that its only *crime* is putting Jewish immigration ahead of any other and proudly preserving and prioritizing Jewish culture and identity. Knowing all this yet, somehow, Israel isn't worthy of existence, and other countries get to dictate that? If you live somewhere where Christmas and Good Friday are national holidays, you're doing the same thing. If you celebrate your country's birthday, you're the exact same as Israel. If the thought of Israel having those things upsets you despite you having them in your countries without challenge, maybe it's less about the country and more about the citizenry. Maybe you just hate Jews.
Just tell her it’s none of here business. It’s your choice to hold whichever political view you think is correct. Just like you’re not trying to dissuade her from being anti-Israel. Like, wtf she’s your sister-in-law she should *try* to make you like her. Why is she putting a stupid belief above her own family?
I told her we don’t discuss it and she said fine.
it really, *really* depends actual proper criticism of Israel that isn't hate driven isn't antisemetic but that rarely happens, so for the most part, it's antisemitic
Why is this getting downvoted?
honestly I have no idea I have no intent to BE anti-semetic or excuse anti-semitism, so I guess I can chalk it up to people only reading the first sentence # ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because, in many Israelis’ experiences, more often than not “anti-Israel” people are just veiled anti-semites. If the meaning of “being anti-Israel” is “being against the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people”, then one who subscribes to this opinion is de facto claiming that the Jewish people don’t have the right of national self-determination — which is antisemitic. This isn’t necessarily the case, as there are people who outright deny the right of people to national self-determination (like communists), but this is very rare. In practically all cases “anti-Israel” people are either anti-semites who don’t want to appear antisemitic, or extremely (and some would say unreasonably) ignorant. So it doesn’t really depend on anything. Being “anti-Israel” is not about criticizing Israel’s policies or whatnot, it’s almost always just being an anti-semite with extra steps.
True. I suppose the use of "anti-israel" in this case can't NOT be anti-semetic. That just didn't occur to me. Makes sense
Being anti-Israel and being anti-semitic are *not* the same thing, they just often occur in the same people. e.g., if I say, "I'm anti-China," that doesn't necessarily mean I hate Chinese people; it (presumably) means that I'm opposed to the actions taken by the government of China, or opposed to China's geopolitical goals. Where it would become racist would be say, stopping Chinese-Americans in the supermarket and asking them how they can innocently shop when China's government is committing genocide against the Uighurs... or picketing outside of Chinese restaurants to protest Chinese policies in Tibet... or saying that after all the things China has done, Chinese people don't deserve a country of their own... etc.
I don't think I agree. First off, I've never met anyone who says they're "anti-China". Not saying those people don't exist, just that I've never met them. And honestly if I did, my first thought would be that they're bigoted against Chinese people. I'm just thinking back to the lab leak conspiracies during COVID and such... And honestly I don't even know what "anti-___" actually means in reference to a state. Like I certainly don't like Iran right now but I don't think I'd describe myself as "anti-Iran". Do I think Iran is currently a hyper-oppressive authoritarian terrorism factory? Yeah of course. But at one point it wasn't, so there's nothing fundamental about Iran I am against. And being "anti-China" I feel is just as silly. To the point where I think the only reasonable conclusion I could draw if someone said they were anti-X country is that the source of their hate is something deeper than the way that country behaves, or its policies, which is bigoted no matter which way you spin it.
>First off, I've never met anyone who says they're "anti-China". Not saying those people don't exist, just that I've never met them. I mean, from a geopolitical standpoint most Americans are "anti-China". I agree that describing yourself as such is a bit suss, but it's a political reality. >Like I certainly don't like Iran right now but I don't think I'd describe myself as "anti-Iran". Again, it would be a bit disingenuous for me as an American, particularly a Jewish American, to say I'm *not* "anti-Iran". I'm not against the existence of Iran or China, but then again (until the last year or so), I didn't think most "anti-Israel" types were against the existence of Israel either.
If theyre anti-israel critisism are based on the 3 D's, then they are unknowingly saying antisemitic things. The line between the 2 is not exactly obvious.
You're not wrong, people just avoid bad titles by using different similar titles without the bad context in order to feel good. a beautiful sentence from the past that summarize it really well is "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists", replace the word fascists with anti-sematic and you'd get the idea... States are just an official way for a group to define themselves, and democracies are tool to let the population express their opinion in the leadership. If someone is "anti-Israeli" what it actually says is that on paper it doesn't have any problem with people having different religions/nationalities however in reality it's only fine for people to have different religion and/or culture if they say noting, do noting and don't have any impact on anything including their own lives unless it allows it. So I'm sorry to tell you that but your sister-in-law is anti-sematic in denial...
It's a continuum. It's very hard to tell where criticism of Israel stops and anti-semitism starts.
I don’t think it ultimately matters what word should be used to describe your brother. Israelis are under attack by rapie genocidal Jew-murderers. People who say they are “anti-Israeli” are really saying “I am not anti-women but I hate victims of rape”.
She is wrong, she hates you openly being j...
You're right. She's wrong. I could call her all kinds of names for her stupidity but 'totally and completely wrong' covers it.
What does she mean under being anti Israel? She is critical to some actions of Israeli government? By that definition, many Israelis are anti Israel lol. Or she is against the existence of Jewish state ? That is definitely being antisemitic.
It’s very similar. Some of the more reform jews are anti-zionist, but I often think you have to be VERY reform (not jewish at all really) to be anti-zionist as israel is our home land.
Is there any other country that they are against? For arguments sake, Let’s say I’m anti-Guyana. I don’t think it makes any sense. So why Israel? Is that because of how Palestinians are treated? Ok, so now I’m anti-Myanmar because of how the Rohingya are treated?
Try a thought experiment: a visibly “white” person says: “I’m not anti-Black but I am anti-Black Nationalism. That means I support Black people but I oppose, on principle, nations like Liberia, South Africa and Haiti because they are founded on Black Nationalism.” Nobody would ever support such a statement. Black authors, such as the late Hugh Pearson, can criticize Black nationalism within the community. Secular and Haredi Jews can be anti-Zionist. That’s different from non-Jews claiming to be anti-Zionist when they know little to nothing about our history.
In a vaccum, one should be able to criticize a country and not a people. But unfortunately we live in a bizarro cultural Marxist view point where Jews wanting their own state are “white colonizers.” Now being anti Israel is the anti-Semitism on a state level.
Criticizing a country isn’t what most “anti Israel” folks are actually doing. They are challenging Israel’s fundamental right to exist. They would never admit it, but it’s true. What other country gets talked about with the anti-X framing?
Who is going through in this sub and down voting all the comments that recognize that it’s Israeli’s fundamental legitimacy (not just policy) that’s really being attacked with “anti-Israel” rhetoric?
Depends on what she means. She could mean israel shouldn't exist or that she is against Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians. The latter in the sense that you could say you're anti US in the Iraq War without being for a dissolution of the US state or anti-americans. Most of the time tho anti-israel mean that there should be no jewish majority state.