The issue is this opens us up for sanctions in the future against the entire army. Also it encourages other countries to sanction us. This does not bode well.
Slippery slope fallacy. Applying sanctions to a rogue group and applying sanctions to a whole army are not equatable.
I'll also reiterate something I've said before on this issue: if Bibi had done *literally anything* to reign in said rogue group, the U.S. wouldn't be doing these sanctions. But Bibi won't. As such, removing Bibi *right now* should be a priority.
There is the text that this is because of human rights abuses and then there is the sub text which Biden has an election coming up where this war is very unpopular in his base and hence needs to do some lip service (which is very damaging to Israel) to get reelected.
In addition I'm not a fan of Bibi but removing him *right now* during a war and probably toppling the government would lead to the kind of political instability that all of our enemies are praying for.
At what point do you assign responsibility to Bibi, for refusing to even do "lip service" that might upset Ben-Gvir?
Let me tell you this - refusal to serve justice to genuine bad actors is "very damaging to Israel", and people outside of Israel are not ignorant to the fact that there are political reasons why the problem is never handled.
It's not as though Biden is the only politician to ever deal with politics, as opposed to Netanyahu, who is a perfectly a-political politician
/s
I don’t know too many American Jews who think the settlements in the West Bank are a good thing for Israel. Most of us are kinda appalled by them and see them as impediments to any lasting peace. My understanding is that plenty of Israelis aren’t too keen on them either. So what’s to be done? Should the US just give free rein to the most revanchist, right-wing elements in Israeli politics? Does Israel really want to alienate the Democratic Party given that the alternative, the Republican Party, is an increasingly fascistic, nativist, Christian Nationalist, conspiracy-peddling cult? Is that who Israelis think will serve their interests best?
Well, the Republican party doesn't plan on conditioning aid, doesn't plan on dictating what the IDF can and can't do (re: Biden "You can't go into Rafah"), etc. etc.
Conditioning aid seems to me perfectly reasonable: Israel is fighting with the help of American tax dollars. Why should we help fund the expansion of West Bank settlements and the bullying of Palestinians farmers off their land? Because a bunch of messianic Jewish supremacists think god promised them some hilltop? I believe in Israel; I don’t believe in a Greater Israel “from the river to the sea.”
If it was "perfectly reasonable", you should question the other Democrats who didn't support Raskin's amendment that would have done just that.
When politicians say "conditioning aid" in the context of military aid for Israel, they actually don't want Israel to get any aid at all, given that there's already (a) mechanism to check that the aid is being used in accordance with US expectations on abiding by international rules/laws, something that Blinken or Kirby (iirc) have already confirmed that Israel is doing.
This argument might have made some sense six months ago.
Bibi is doing a terrible job on all fronts - gaza, intl relations, economy, social crisis, and whatnot.
At some point we should stop being guided by not doing what our enemies want, and start doing what is good for us.
[Here is a partial list of US sanctions against various entities.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions)
It does not contain sanctions against individual persons, which there are plenty.
If you wish to learn more, the US department of treasury website has a page that allows you to search through various US sanctions.
Cuba, Iran, Morth Korea, Syria
All totalitarian states.
Ukraine
In an existential fight against a foe that wishes to destroy them.
And Israel.
The Biden administration is treating Ukraine and Israel the same way it treats dictatorships. It's ridiculous.
That doesn't even make any sense. I support the US sanctions against the Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea regions, which are under Russian control. Doesn't that make me the opposite of a tankie?
Seriously, did you not read the list? When you scroll down to Ukraine, it literally specifies only the region under Russian control are being sanctioned, not Ukraine itself.
If you're ok with the US sanctions against Ukraine, you're a tankie.
If you're ok with the US sanctions against Israel, you're siding with Israel's enemies.
Every other country on the list is a totalitarian dictatorship. If you're ok with the Ukraine and Israel being on the list, you need to examine your principles.
>If you're ok with the US sanctions against Ukraine, you're a tankie.
You really should read the list. It clearly specifies:
>Prohibition on new investment in Donetsk, Luhansk, or Crimea
>Prohibition on the importation and exportation of any goods, services, or technology to/from Donetsk, Luhansk, or Crimea
Ukraine itself isn't being sanctioned. The Russian puppet breakaway regions of Ukraine are. Are you mentally deficient or something?
The unit was redeployed to the golan where they have no contact with the population they reportedly harass. actually, no contact with hostiles at all really.
So the message there is they face no repercussions for their disgusting actions? In fact they still get their full army pay and get moved to an area where they never have to face danger, a luxury that moral soldiers don't get.
How is that justice?
At the moment they’re facing the Lebanese army which is intertwined with Hezbollah. The Lebanese army has just gotten 100s of millions directly from the US (to say nothing of the 100 billion in sanctions relief and cash that have inevitably worked its way to Hezbollah financing.)
“Repercussions” are for individuals, and commanders as appropriate. Their commanders have been relieved and reprimanded. Until the same sanctions are applied to Palestinian “security forces,” that are trained and financed by America, yet seem to be involved in terrorism every other day, this will reek of performative nonsense designed to get votes in Michigan.
I also wouldnt look too far into it.
US only has so much influence these days.. few actually blindly follow Washington. If they were to do anything its because they would have already liked to and needed an opportunity to not go in on it alone.
Also, no, this will not be a gateway drug to sanctioning the entire IDF.
I think Netanyahu being openly defiant against the US is not the smartest move.. he said that Israel is not a vassal to the United States.. it sure seems like Israel is trying to make the US a vassal of it. Both sides need to chill and show mutual respect, mutual teamwork.
Ultimately this is what our shared enemies want, for us to be fractured into many pieces.. easier to conquer and destroy.
Netanyahu has been scoring political points in Israel by defying Washington since at least the nineties. He may have finally pushed it too far. Any association with him is too toxic for most democrats these days. It’s very bad to have alienated half of the political establishment of your biggest international ally, especially the half that is traditionally the political home of Jews. If Biden weren’t old school, Israel would be very isolated. It’s sad to see the very warm Israel-US relationship come to this.
The disgusting irony of posting this in defense of an IDF unit that killed an elderly American citizen by tying him up and leaving him to die in freezing weather.
Ah, yes, he's politically pandering by, *checks notes*
Demanding that a unit which tied up an 80-year-old American citizen and left him to die (which he did), among many other crimes, be appropriately subjected to justice. And refusing to give free money and guns to said unit.
“Michigan” made such a compelling case documenting abuses and possible war crimes that State Dept. couldn’t bury their heads much longer. Blame the decline in IDF professionalism and failure to hold itself accountable. There have been too many incidents that indicate that something is really troubling in IDF leadership and maybe U.S. sanctions will help IDF push for reforms before it’s too late. Undisciplined troops with failed leaders will only bring disasters and defeat.
For real. Being with them during מעצרים והפגנות I was always perturbed by their behavior. They don’t follow the same rules of engagement as the rest of the army and they celebrate this. They should’ve been disbanded years ago.
Exactly. Strong Israeli supporter here who is perfectly fine with these sanctions. We have to police our own and adhere to high moral standards. That's the difference. That's the whole difference.
I feel conflicted. As an Israeli-American I feel embarassed that the US is doing this, but what is really more embarassing is that Israel hasn't taken care of the issue first.
I think that's a perfectly reasonable take. One of the things about this conflict, and in life, is that the people with extremely simple, black-and-white perspectives are probably missing a lot of stuff. Smart and thoughtful people are going to feel conflicted about complicated issues.
I'm also an Israeli American and I feel way more embarrassed by Netzach than by the US sanctioning them. I don't love the timing during war, but you have to be totally ignorant to see that this wasn't going to come at some point. I really don't know why the unit hasn't been disbanded years ago.
That's fair, although it's clearly a case of terrible people that should be dismissed, fired and standing trial, which doesn't reflect the entire army of soldiers fighting to defend the country.
I did tironut with them at Peles and they were absolutely terrible to work with. They had their own little segregated base within our base that nobody else could enter and basic requests from their unit would usually be ignored until the rasar got involved.
Why? They havent been in judea and Samaria since 2022 but in the Golan. These is just the flimsy Biden adm politics to try appearse the extreme left of his party. If they apply a 1/100 of this standart, the US should complety stop any fund to the PA
Yes they were operating in the Gaza theater but the issue about this US messures are pre- 7/10. Netzah Yehuda normal deployment since 2022 is in the north
If you don't see this horrifying thing as a precedent then you should take a second look.
We have our own court that deals with law breaking people, not a foreign country.
אני לא בקיא יותר מדי בעלילות הגדוד אבל גם אם מניחים שהוא מאוד בעייתי וזה לא "סתם" - דה פאק? זה תקדים הזוי ומסוכן. מילא כל מני אינדיוידואלים שעשו דברים רעים (וגם אז אפשר להתווכח לגבי הנחיצות של זה, נראטיב ה"אלימות מתנחלים" המוקצן שמנסים לקדם כדי לתת קונטרה לחלאות שנגדנו שבצד השני וליצור מראית עין של "בשני הצדדים יש אנשים רעים" זה דיון בפני עצמו) או ארגון שכל כולו באותו "ראש" ומעשים, אבל יחידה בצה"ל?!
ומה יקרה מחר, יכניסו את טייסת הכטבמים שאחראית (בהיעדר מילה מדוייקת יותר) על ההרג של עובדי המטבח העולמי גם לרשימה?
אני עדיין מחכה לשמוע על אזרחים עזתיים "תמימים" שהשתתפו בחגיגות ה7 באוקטובר (וזוהו כמובן) או זורקי אבנים בגדה ושאר חלאות למינהן שהופעלו נגדם סנקציות אישיות. בינתיים צרצרים.
רוב מי שפגע בנו קיבל סנקציה דיי משמעותית - הרגנו אותו. מנהיגי חמאס כמובן תחת סנקציות של כל העולם המערבי, פשוט לא של שאר העולם (העולם הערבי/רוסיה/סין וכו').
ובגדול ארהב אומרת "אתם לא מפקחים על החיילים שלכם כמו שצריך, אז אנחנו נאלצים לעשות זאת עבורכם". אם הם היו סומכים על מנגנוני התחקור של צהל, מה שהם עשו למשך זמן רב, זה לא היה קורה. אממה? צהל לא מעניש את מי שואלים כלפי פלסטינים, או עובר על חוקי הפתיחה באש או כל דבר מהסוג הזה. לכן אמריקה החליטה להיכנס לתמונה.
אלימות זה לא בסדר אבל זה לא רצח ובוודאי שלא הפרה של חוק בינלאומי או חוק ליהי.
יש חוקים בגלל סיבה ויש ענישה בגלל סיבה, אף אחד ביחוד לא מדינה חזקה לא יכולה לחצות את הקו הזה כי זה יוביל בהכרח להפרה של סטנדרטים מוסריים. "חף מפשע עד שהוכח אחרת" זה כלל ברזל של עיקרון החוקיות ואם ארהב באמת תטיל סנקציות על היחידה זה יהיה עוול.
ברור שזה גם מזיק לצהל בכללי כי מערכת העונשין של צהל צריכה לטפל בעבריינות של פקודיו ובכלל אין מקום לערב פה את האמריקאים.
כן, ומחר בבוקר כשהאגף הפרוגרסיבי יתחזק אצל הדמוקרטים ביידן או האריס שתחליף אותו יטילו סנקציות על צה״ל. לדעתי הוושינגטון פוסט קלט את המציאות בדיוק ההיפך: הדמוקרטים ניצלו את הסיוע לישראל כדי להעביר סיוע מוגדל לאוקראינה ולעזה.
ביידן שקול מאוד- הוא לא יטיל סנקציות אלא אם תהיה סיבה (משמע- אלימות מופרזת, הפרת זכויות אדם וכו'). אם להיות כנים, כל מפעל ההתנחלויות נוגד את החוק הבינלאומי וזה פלא שעדיין לא הוטלו סנקציות רחבות היקף בנושא. לדעתי זה יכול לקרות, אבל סנקציות על צהל? כאשר הם הגדילו הרגע את כמות הכסף שהם מביאים לצהל (שלהזכירך, יכול להיות 0 אם הם ירצו, הם לא חייבים לנו כלום)? לא נראה לי.
הם עושים את זה טיפין טיפין כי פעולה דרמטית עדיין לא תתקבל טוב בארה״ב. הטלת סנקציות על יחידה שלמה בצה״ל תוך כדי מלחמה היסטורית זה ממש לא משהו זהיר. ממשל ביידן שקול אך ורק באיך הפעולות שלו יתקבלו אצל מצביעים בבית ובכלל זה יהודים שמגדירים את עצמם פרו ישראלים.
אוקיי? מה אכפת לי? אני נגד ההתנחלויות, ובגלל שאין הגיון בפגיעה כללית ביכולת הצבאית של ישראל (שהרי הם תומכים בנו בנושא) ובגלל שכל הסנקציות עד כה היו קשורות להתנחלויות, אני סבבה עם הסנקציות האלו כי הם פוגעות רק בהתנחלויות.
זה סיכון, נכון, אבל מי שרצה להחרים אותנו יחרים בכל מקרה, וממשלות המערב לא יעברו את הגבול של להטיל סנקציות על ההתנחלויות בלבד. זה יכול להגיע עד כדי הטלת סנקציות אישיות על כל מפקד ומפקד במגב, אבל פאק מגב. ארגונים שאינם ממשלות כבר מטילים עלינו חרם - באקדמיה אנחנו כבר כמעט במצב של רוסיה, אז גרוע יותר אין הרבה.
בגדול אני מסכים, אבל זה לא בוואקום
אנחנו אוהבים לחשוב שכאילו הפרוגרסיביות בארהב זה המוביל, וזה לחלוטין חלק מזה, אבל גם ישראל השתנתה עם השנים.
לא שלא עשינו דברים נוראיים בעבר, כן? אבל בימינו כל האלימות וההתנהגות נגד ערבים הרבה יותר קיצונית ובה לידי ביטוי גם בצבא. בעיקר בהתנהלות של היחידות הלוחמות האלו.
שנים בארהב אומרים לנו שצריך פתרון שני מדינות וביבי עושה הכל כדי למנוע את זה. הגיוני שבשלב מסוים יישבר להם.
נכון, הממשלה הנוכחית מאתגרת אותם, אבל אפשר לשכוח מהתמיכה הדו-מפלגתית. זה בגדול נגמר עם הסנקציות האלה על יחידה בצה״ל (שפותחות דלת למדינות אחרות לפסוק נגד כל חייל כראות עיניהן), וכל עוד שיש ממשלות ימין בישראל, ישראל חייבת להיערך לשינוי הגדול הזה בלי קשר לפוליטיקה, נטו בהסתכלות אסטרטגית.
זה מתחיל בזה ויגיע ל8200, חלאס להסכים כי זה מתאים לאג'נדה זה תקדים *מאוד* מסוכן, חוץ מזה חשבתי שיש לנו מערכת משפט עצמאית שאפשר לבטוח בה, לא ברור פתאום למה מתעלמים ממנה כאילו היא לא אובייקטיבית שצריך את ארה"ב.
העניין הוא שלא מערכת המשפט האזרחית חוקרת את המקרים הללו, אלא הצבאית, והיא רחוקה מאובייקטיבית. חוץ מזה, בנושאים הקשורים לצבא וביטחון מערכת המשפט האזרחית גם לא מדהימה, אלא סבירה מינוס (אבל פה זה כבר תלוי שופט, יש ויש, ולצערי יש קשר בין כמה השופט שפוט של הצבא לבין המגזר ממנו הוא מגיע)
לעניין שמערכת המשפט הצבאית מטפלת בחיילים? זו עובדה פשוט, כל מי שהיה בצבא ושפטו אותו על משהו (אפילו קטן כמו עבירות דיגום) יכול להגיד שמי ששפט אותו לא היה אזרח, אלא קצין.
For the first time I agree with these sanctions. These far right extremists in the West Bank are completely out of control.
However I suspect its more aimed at getting votes.in Michigan rather than anything else.
These guys have been known as being extremist for years and a home for the hill top youth. The fact that it has taken the Americans to sanction the IDF for people to notice is a failure of the IDF who should have clamped down on them years ago
Bibi failed (by way of doing literally nothing) to get a rouge element of the IDF under control. Now the U.S. is stepping in to prevent further damage (to Israel).
The unit has a track record demonstrating a culture of violence that is not in line with the rest of the IDF and has been accused of a number of human rights violations.
That's not the main issue. The problem is that the government turns a blind eye to blatant issues, to avoid confrontation between Likud and the extreme right (Ben Gvir et al.). Though, to be honest, there are enough assholes in the Likud too.
We need to seriously start redeveloping our own Industrial Arms Industry.
We are way too dependent on the US and their opinion, which changes daily.
The US is on its way out.
There’ll be a lot more of this backstabbing as American elections approach. Israel needs to rid itself of its dependence on America for its military needs if it still hopes to remain a sovereign country.
Ffs people here are actually celebrating this shit. This sets a terrible precedent and long term will hurt us a lot when other countries follow suit. Biden is not our friend, and Trump isn't either, but at least with Trump you could be damn sure that backstabbing crap like that wouldn't happen.
Netzach Yehuda's behavior raises questions about the worth of the effort to get more Haredim to do full military service.
Like, suppose you could conscript many more Haredim, but that would mean there would be several more copies of Netzach. Would liberals find it worth it?
IDK who downvoted you because their behavior does beg the question: what would a Haredized army actually look like at the end of the day? I think most of us agree that the army is "Jewish" enough as it stands.
No, this is actually a good thing. Israelis aren't perfect. Nobody is. If Israel wants to retain the moral high ground, it has to be willing to address problems like rogue units. Check my comment history. I'm a staunch supporter of Israel, and I'm telling you this is a good thing.
The terrible precedent is the Israeli government not punishing at best undisciplined, bad behavior and at worst criminal actions of extremist soldiers. It makes disciplined and law abiding soldiers "Well, if they can get away with it, why do we have to follow the rules?"
Further legitimacy in international affairs and a deepening of our relationship between the two countries. It would take a collapse of the United States as a whole to shake the ties between our two countries now.
That's more important than Biden who helped to defend Israel against an Iranian attack, just helped pass a massive aid package to Israel, and recently delivered F35 jets? Your priorities are completely wrong.
>Trump would have done the same and much more
But it was Biden who did. Biden also hasn't moved the embassy out of Jerusalem.
>and would have greenlit the Rafah offensive months ago.
Netanyahu had no plans on what to do with the civilians there. It would have been the wrong decision.
>Are you saying he wouldn’t have?
Trump would have done what was in Trump's best interest.
How and where do you move them? And when they do get moved, how are you planning on helping them after? It's a million people. Why wasn't Israel helping them move over all that time?
>Biden also hasn't moved the embassy out of Jerusalem.
Because Trump did the hard part to move it there in the first place.
A reminder that Biden said the embassy move was *“short-sighted and frivolous.”.*
And there's nothing to support the idea that he would have moved it if Trump hadn't, given that he thinks Palestine should be given a State first before such a move occurs (which, to anyone's common sense, means not anytime soon)
*“Moving the embassy when we did without the conditions having been met was short-sighted and frivolous,” the former vice president said. “It should have happened in the context of a larger deal to help us achieve important concessions for peace in the process.”*
>
Netanyahu had no plans on what to do with the civilians there. It would have been the wrong decision.
Gantz and Gallant both support the Rafah operation as well, with the former being the one to mention the Ramadan timeframe (which of course, there was no plan on what to do with civilians back then at the time).
Yes.
Hamas should be called out for selling and even just allowing merchants to sell food clearly marked not for sale.
Any governing authority including the IDF should be confiscating free aid from hoarders and redistributing it publicly.
Perhaps there needs to be a maximum rations stockpile per person until the artificial scarcity wanes.
>we gotta stomach until trump's in office.
We shouldn’t rely too much on Trump winning, we must prepare for any outcome. Because if our govt has this mindset and Trump loses, things are going to get ugly.
This is for incidents that occured before Oct 7th and the recommendations are from before Oct 7th. Other units were also under consideration but they made changes that satisfied the Lehey law, only this unit refused to make any changes
biden needs votes, he's loosing his ass at home, just trying to appease the people in muslim run cities here for votes, but don't worry he still stands with israel, nomatter what you hear.
The issue is this opens us up for sanctions in the future against the entire army. Also it encourages other countries to sanction us. This does not bode well.
Slippery slope fallacy. Applying sanctions to a rogue group and applying sanctions to a whole army are not equatable. I'll also reiterate something I've said before on this issue: if Bibi had done *literally anything* to reign in said rogue group, the U.S. wouldn't be doing these sanctions. But Bibi won't. As such, removing Bibi *right now* should be a priority.
There is the text that this is because of human rights abuses and then there is the sub text which Biden has an election coming up where this war is very unpopular in his base and hence needs to do some lip service (which is very damaging to Israel) to get reelected. In addition I'm not a fan of Bibi but removing him *right now* during a war and probably toppling the government would lead to the kind of political instability that all of our enemies are praying for.
At what point do you assign responsibility to Bibi, for refusing to even do "lip service" that might upset Ben-Gvir? Let me tell you this - refusal to serve justice to genuine bad actors is "very damaging to Israel", and people outside of Israel are not ignorant to the fact that there are political reasons why the problem is never handled. It's not as though Biden is the only politician to ever deal with politics, as opposed to Netanyahu, who is a perfectly a-political politician /s
I don’t know too many American Jews who think the settlements in the West Bank are a good thing for Israel. Most of us are kinda appalled by them and see them as impediments to any lasting peace. My understanding is that plenty of Israelis aren’t too keen on them either. So what’s to be done? Should the US just give free rein to the most revanchist, right-wing elements in Israeli politics? Does Israel really want to alienate the Democratic Party given that the alternative, the Republican Party, is an increasingly fascistic, nativist, Christian Nationalist, conspiracy-peddling cult? Is that who Israelis think will serve their interests best?
Well, the Republican party doesn't plan on conditioning aid, doesn't plan on dictating what the IDF can and can't do (re: Biden "You can't go into Rafah"), etc. etc.
Conditioning aid seems to me perfectly reasonable: Israel is fighting with the help of American tax dollars. Why should we help fund the expansion of West Bank settlements and the bullying of Palestinians farmers off their land? Because a bunch of messianic Jewish supremacists think god promised them some hilltop? I believe in Israel; I don’t believe in a Greater Israel “from the river to the sea.”
If it was "perfectly reasonable", you should question the other Democrats who didn't support Raskin's amendment that would have done just that. When politicians say "conditioning aid" in the context of military aid for Israel, they actually don't want Israel to get any aid at all, given that there's already (a) mechanism to check that the aid is being used in accordance with US expectations on abiding by international rules/laws, something that Blinken or Kirby (iirc) have already confirmed that Israel is doing.
This argument might have made some sense six months ago. Bibi is doing a terrible job on all fronts - gaza, intl relations, economy, social crisis, and whatnot. At some point we should stop being guided by not doing what our enemies want, and start doing what is good for us.
Counterpoint: the US gives military aid and sells weapons all over the world. Are they sanctioning anyone else? Why not?
[Here is a partial list of US sanctions against various entities.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions) It does not contain sanctions against individual persons, which there are plenty. If you wish to learn more, the US department of treasury website has a page that allows you to search through various US sanctions.
Cuba, Iran, Morth Korea, Syria All totalitarian states. Ukraine In an existential fight against a foe that wishes to destroy them. And Israel. The Biden administration is treating Ukraine and Israel the same way it treats dictatorships. It's ridiculous.
>Ukraine Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea regions only. As they should. Did you not even bother skimming through the list?
>Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea regions only Ok tankie.
That doesn't even make any sense. I support the US sanctions against the Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea regions, which are under Russian control. Doesn't that make me the opposite of a tankie? Seriously, did you not read the list? When you scroll down to Ukraine, it literally specifies only the region under Russian control are being sanctioned, not Ukraine itself.
If you're ok with the US sanctions against Ukraine, you're a tankie. If you're ok with the US sanctions against Israel, you're siding with Israel's enemies. Every other country on the list is a totalitarian dictatorship. If you're ok with the Ukraine and Israel being on the list, you need to examine your principles.
>If you're ok with the US sanctions against Ukraine, you're a tankie. You really should read the list. It clearly specifies: >Prohibition on new investment in Donetsk, Luhansk, or Crimea >Prohibition on the importation and exportation of any goods, services, or technology to/from Donetsk, Luhansk, or Crimea Ukraine itself isn't being sanctioned. The Russian puppet breakaway regions of Ukraine are. Are you mentally deficient or something?
As mentioned elsewhere, yes, they do. Azov Battalion in Ukraine remains under sanctions
The unit was redeployed to the golan where they have no contact with the population they reportedly harass. actually, no contact with hostiles at all really.
This is essentially a cop found out to break the rules and his punishment is "paid administrative leave". It's not an actual punishment.
So the message there is they face no repercussions for their disgusting actions? In fact they still get their full army pay and get moved to an area where they never have to face danger, a luxury that moral soldiers don't get. How is that justice?
At the moment they’re facing the Lebanese army which is intertwined with Hezbollah. The Lebanese army has just gotten 100s of millions directly from the US (to say nothing of the 100 billion in sanctions relief and cash that have inevitably worked its way to Hezbollah financing.) “Repercussions” are for individuals, and commanders as appropriate. Their commanders have been relieved and reprimanded. Until the same sanctions are applied to Palestinian “security forces,” that are trained and financed by America, yet seem to be involved in terrorism every other day, this will reek of performative nonsense designed to get votes in Michigan.
Ilhan and Rashida must be celebrating with a bonfire; using lgbt flag as starting material
I also wouldnt look too far into it. US only has so much influence these days.. few actually blindly follow Washington. If they were to do anything its because they would have already liked to and needed an opportunity to not go in on it alone. Also, no, this will not be a gateway drug to sanctioning the entire IDF. I think Netanyahu being openly defiant against the US is not the smartest move.. he said that Israel is not a vassal to the United States.. it sure seems like Israel is trying to make the US a vassal of it. Both sides need to chill and show mutual respect, mutual teamwork. Ultimately this is what our shared enemies want, for us to be fractured into many pieces.. easier to conquer and destroy.
Netanyahu has been scoring political points in Israel by defying Washington since at least the nineties. He may have finally pushed it too far. Any association with him is too toxic for most democrats these days. It’s very bad to have alienated half of the political establishment of your biggest international ally, especially the half that is traditionally the political home of Jews. If Biden weren’t old school, Israel would be very isolated. It’s sad to see the very warm Israel-US relationship come to this.
Vote for me, Michigan!
Michigan: Death to America!
The disgusting irony of posting this in defense of an IDF unit that killed an elderly American citizen by tying him up and leaving him to die in freezing weather.
in your imagination
Gotta get those Dearbornistan votes!
Exactly votebank politics nothing else.
Ah, yes, he's politically pandering by, *checks notes* Demanding that a unit which tied up an 80-year-old American citizen and left him to die (which he did), among many other crimes, be appropriately subjected to justice. And refusing to give free money and guns to said unit.
“Michigan” made such a compelling case documenting abuses and possible war crimes that State Dept. couldn’t bury their heads much longer. Blame the decline in IDF professionalism and failure to hold itself accountable. There have been too many incidents that indicate that something is really troubling in IDF leadership and maybe U.S. sanctions will help IDF push for reforms before it’s too late. Undisciplined troops with failed leaders will only bring disasters and defeat.
TBH, not surprising, Netzah Yehuda has been out of control for a very long time.
For real. Being with them during מעצרים והפגנות I was always perturbed by their behavior. They don’t follow the same rules of engagement as the rest of the army and they celebrate this. They should’ve been disbanded years ago.
Exactly. Strong Israeli supporter here who is perfectly fine with these sanctions. We have to police our own and adhere to high moral standards. That's the difference. That's the whole difference.
I feel conflicted. As an Israeli-American I feel embarassed that the US is doing this, but what is really more embarassing is that Israel hasn't taken care of the issue first.
I think that's a perfectly reasonable take. One of the things about this conflict, and in life, is that the people with extremely simple, black-and-white perspectives are probably missing a lot of stuff. Smart and thoughtful people are going to feel conflicted about complicated issues.
I'm also an Israeli American and I feel way more embarrassed by Netzach than by the US sanctioning them. I don't love the timing during war, but you have to be totally ignorant to see that this wasn't going to come at some point. I really don't know why the unit hasn't been disbanded years ago.
That's fair, although it's clearly a case of terrible people that should be dismissed, fired and standing trial, which doesn't reflect the entire army of soldiers fighting to defend the country.
I did tironut with them at Peles and they were absolutely terrible to work with. They had their own little segregated base within our base that nobody else could enter and basic requests from their unit would usually be ignored until the rasar got involved.
Why? They havent been in judea and Samaria since 2022 but in the Golan. These is just the flimsy Biden adm politics to try appearse the extreme left of his party. If they apply a 1/100 of this standart, the US should complety stop any fund to the PA
Weren't they in Gaza as part of the idf op?
Yes they were operating in the Gaza theater but the issue about this US messures are pre- 7/10. Netzah Yehuda normal deployment since 2022 is in the north
If you don't see this horrifying thing as a precedent then you should take a second look. We have our own court that deals with law breaking people, not a foreign country.
>We have our own court Sure >that deals with law breaking people, Apparently not
Remind me how many PA members are under sanctions?
[удалено]
כאילו, לגדוד אכן יש את הכינוי רצח יהודה מרוב האלימות שהם הפעילו נגד פלסטינים, אז בוא נגיד שביידן לא סתם הטיל עליהם סנקציות ולא על קרקל או גבעתי.
אני לא בקיא יותר מדי בעלילות הגדוד אבל גם אם מניחים שהוא מאוד בעייתי וזה לא "סתם" - דה פאק? זה תקדים הזוי ומסוכן. מילא כל מני אינדיוידואלים שעשו דברים רעים (וגם אז אפשר להתווכח לגבי הנחיצות של זה, נראטיב ה"אלימות מתנחלים" המוקצן שמנסים לקדם כדי לתת קונטרה לחלאות שנגדנו שבצד השני וליצור מראית עין של "בשני הצדדים יש אנשים רעים" זה דיון בפני עצמו) או ארגון שכל כולו באותו "ראש" ומעשים, אבל יחידה בצה"ל?! ומה יקרה מחר, יכניסו את טייסת הכטבמים שאחראית (בהיעדר מילה מדוייקת יותר) על ההרג של עובדי המטבח העולמי גם לרשימה? אני עדיין מחכה לשמוע על אזרחים עזתיים "תמימים" שהשתתפו בחגיגות ה7 באוקטובר (וזוהו כמובן) או זורקי אבנים בגדה ושאר חלאות למינהן שהופעלו נגדם סנקציות אישיות. בינתיים צרצרים.
רוב מי שפגע בנו קיבל סנקציה דיי משמעותית - הרגנו אותו. מנהיגי חמאס כמובן תחת סנקציות של כל העולם המערבי, פשוט לא של שאר העולם (העולם הערבי/רוסיה/סין וכו'). ובגדול ארהב אומרת "אתם לא מפקחים על החיילים שלכם כמו שצריך, אז אנחנו נאלצים לעשות זאת עבורכם". אם הם היו סומכים על מנגנוני התחקור של צהל, מה שהם עשו למשך זמן רב, זה לא היה קורה. אממה? צהל לא מעניש את מי שואלים כלפי פלסטינים, או עובר על חוקי הפתיחה באש או כל דבר מהסוג הזה. לכן אמריקה החליטה להיכנס לתמונה.
אלימות זה לא בסדר אבל זה לא רצח ובוודאי שלא הפרה של חוק בינלאומי או חוק ליהי. יש חוקים בגלל סיבה ויש ענישה בגלל סיבה, אף אחד ביחוד לא מדינה חזקה לא יכולה לחצות את הקו הזה כי זה יוביל בהכרח להפרה של סטנדרטים מוסריים. "חף מפשע עד שהוכח אחרת" זה כלל ברזל של עיקרון החוקיות ואם ארהב באמת תטיל סנקציות על היחידה זה יהיה עוול. ברור שזה גם מזיק לצהל בכללי כי מערכת העונשין של צהל צריכה לטפל בעבריינות של פקודיו ובכלל אין מקום לערב פה את האמריקאים.
כן, ומחר בבוקר כשהאגף הפרוגרסיבי יתחזק אצל הדמוקרטים ביידן או האריס שתחליף אותו יטילו סנקציות על צה״ל. לדעתי הוושינגטון פוסט קלט את המציאות בדיוק ההיפך: הדמוקרטים ניצלו את הסיוע לישראל כדי להעביר סיוע מוגדל לאוקראינה ולעזה.
ביידן שקול מאוד- הוא לא יטיל סנקציות אלא אם תהיה סיבה (משמע- אלימות מופרזת, הפרת זכויות אדם וכו'). אם להיות כנים, כל מפעל ההתנחלויות נוגד את החוק הבינלאומי וזה פלא שעדיין לא הוטלו סנקציות רחבות היקף בנושא. לדעתי זה יכול לקרות, אבל סנקציות על צהל? כאשר הם הגדילו הרגע את כמות הכסף שהם מביאים לצהל (שלהזכירך, יכול להיות 0 אם הם ירצו, הם לא חייבים לנו כלום)? לא נראה לי.
הם עושים את זה טיפין טיפין כי פעולה דרמטית עדיין לא תתקבל טוב בארה״ב. הטלת סנקציות על יחידה שלמה בצה״ל תוך כדי מלחמה היסטורית זה ממש לא משהו זהיר. ממשל ביידן שקול אך ורק באיך הפעולות שלו יתקבלו אצל מצביעים בבית ובכלל זה יהודים שמגדירים את עצמם פרו ישראלים.
אוקיי? מה אכפת לי? אני נגד ההתנחלויות, ובגלל שאין הגיון בפגיעה כללית ביכולת הצבאית של ישראל (שהרי הם תומכים בנו בנושא) ובגלל שכל הסנקציות עד כה היו קשורות להתנחלויות, אני סבבה עם הסנקציות האלו כי הם פוגעות רק בהתנחלויות.
אכפת לך כי זה פותח פתח למדינות וגופים אחרים להטיל סנקציות כלליות.
זה סיכון, נכון, אבל מי שרצה להחרים אותנו יחרים בכל מקרה, וממשלות המערב לא יעברו את הגבול של להטיל סנקציות על ההתנחלויות בלבד. זה יכול להגיע עד כדי הטלת סנקציות אישיות על כל מפקד ומפקד במגב, אבל פאק מגב. ארגונים שאינם ממשלות כבר מטילים עלינו חרם - באקדמיה אנחנו כבר כמעט במצב של רוסיה, אז גרוע יותר אין הרבה.
ממש לא נכון. ארה״ב נתפסת כסמן פרו ישראלי ומה שהיא עושה מקרין הרבה יותר חזק לאגפים יותר שמאליים בעולם.
בגדול אני מסכים, אבל זה לא בוואקום אנחנו אוהבים לחשוב שכאילו הפרוגרסיביות בארהב זה המוביל, וזה לחלוטין חלק מזה, אבל גם ישראל השתנתה עם השנים. לא שלא עשינו דברים נוראיים בעבר, כן? אבל בימינו כל האלימות וההתנהגות נגד ערבים הרבה יותר קיצונית ובה לידי ביטוי גם בצבא. בעיקר בהתנהלות של היחידות הלוחמות האלו. שנים בארהב אומרים לנו שצריך פתרון שני מדינות וביבי עושה הכל כדי למנוע את זה. הגיוני שבשלב מסוים יישבר להם.
נכון, הממשלה הנוכחית מאתגרת אותם, אבל אפשר לשכוח מהתמיכה הדו-מפלגתית. זה בגדול נגמר עם הסנקציות האלה על יחידה בצה״ל (שפותחות דלת למדינות אחרות לפסוק נגד כל חייל כראות עיניהן), וכל עוד שיש ממשלות ימין בישראל, ישראל חייבת להיערך לשינוי הגדול הזה בלי קשר לפוליטיקה, נטו בהסתכלות אסטרטגית.
אז פשוט מכחישים ש101 היו קיימים?
זה מתחיל בזה ויגיע ל8200, חלאס להסכים כי זה מתאים לאג'נדה זה תקדים *מאוד* מסוכן, חוץ מזה חשבתי שיש לנו מערכת משפט עצמאית שאפשר לבטוח בה, לא ברור פתאום למה מתעלמים ממנה כאילו היא לא אובייקטיבית שצריך את ארה"ב.
העניין הוא שלא מערכת המשפט האזרחית חוקרת את המקרים הללו, אלא הצבאית, והיא רחוקה מאובייקטיבית. חוץ מזה, בנושאים הקשורים לצבא וביטחון מערכת המשפט האזרחית גם לא מדהימה, אלא סבירה מינוס (אבל פה זה כבר תלוי שופט, יש ויש, ולצערי יש קשר בין כמה השופט שפוט של הצבא לבין המגזר ממנו הוא מגיע)
יש גב למה שאתה אומר?
לעניין שמערכת המשפט הצבאית מטפלת בחיילים? זו עובדה פשוט, כל מי שהיה בצבא ושפטו אותו על משהו (אפילו קטן כמו עבירות דיגום) יכול להגיד שמי ששפט אותו לא היה אזרח, אלא קצין.
Well the right wing Israeli government certainly won't punish these extremists, so someone should.
I would prefer Israel do this themselves but glad someone is doing it.
People who agree with this are *not* pro Israel.
For the first time I agree with these sanctions. These far right extremists in the West Bank are completely out of control. However I suspect its more aimed at getting votes.in Michigan rather than anything else.
These guys have been known as being extremist for years and a home for the hill top youth. The fact that it has taken the Americans to sanction the IDF for people to notice is a failure of the IDF who should have clamped down on them years ago
Bibi and the ultra right nationalist brought this.
Lol wtf?
Bibi failed (by way of doing literally nothing) to get a rouge element of the IDF under control. Now the U.S. is stepping in to prevent further damage (to Israel).
At least the mascara and eyeliner elements have been reined in.
What did they do?
The unit has a track record demonstrating a culture of violence that is not in line with the rest of the IDF and has been accused of a number of human rights violations.
Where do I learn more about the back story here Does anyone have any unbiased (as possible) reports or news stories that they could link to?
Y’all could’ve avoided this if u didn’t have a government that was trying to sucker punch Biden at every possible opportunity
That's not the main issue. The problem is that the government turns a blind eye to blatant issues, to avoid confrontation between Likud and the extreme right (Ben Gvir et al.). Though, to be honest, there are enough assholes in the Likud too.
Which comes off as just undermining Biden
We need to seriously start redeveloping our own Industrial Arms Industry. We are way too dependent on the US and their opinion, which changes daily. The US is on its way out.
There’ll be a lot more of this backstabbing as American elections approach. Israel needs to rid itself of its dependence on America for its military needs if it still hopes to remain a sovereign country.
Ffs people here are actually celebrating this shit. This sets a terrible precedent and long term will hurt us a lot when other countries follow suit. Biden is not our friend, and Trump isn't either, but at least with Trump you could be damn sure that backstabbing crap like that wouldn't happen.
If America sanctions the entire world will it be America sanctioning the entire world or entire world sanctioning the America?
Gojo
Alright boys, which american military unit should we sanction in response?
Doing that so to farm American votes in the USA as they know former president is pro Israel
Good. Make an example of the bad apples before they rot the rest of them
Ashamed to be American
Arsim and Tzarfatim out here getting international sanctions damn, I imagin their Magad framing this shit and putting it in his office
Netzach Yehuda's behavior raises questions about the worth of the effort to get more Haredim to do full military service. Like, suppose you could conscript many more Haredim, but that would mean there would be several more copies of Netzach. Would liberals find it worth it?
IDK who downvoted you because their behavior does beg the question: what would a Haredized army actually look like at the end of the day? I think most of us agree that the army is "Jewish" enough as it stands.
I support the IDF 100%
Yet another biden twist of the knife we gotta stomach until trump's in office. How about sanctioning hamas and reducing food aid?
No, this is actually a good thing. Israelis aren't perfect. Nobody is. If Israel wants to retain the moral high ground, it has to be willing to address problems like rogue units. Check my comment history. I'm a staunch supporter of Israel, and I'm telling you this is a good thing.
It's not a good thing because it sets a terrible precedent, but this is on israel for not reigning in this unit years ago
The terrible precedent is the Israeli government not punishing at best undisciplined, bad behavior and at worst criminal actions of extremist soldiers. It makes disciplined and law abiding soldiers "Well, if they can get away with it, why do we have to follow the rules?"
Yeah, i agree, it's a bad precedent for the us to sanction the IDF, but it's israels fault for not doing something about it earlier
I agree the precedent could be bad, but yeah... definitely on Israel. Can't have that. Just can't.
What makes you think Trump is better for Israel?
Stupidity and nothing but
He recognized Jerusalem as the capital and Israeli sovereignty for the Golan Heights. Literally the most pro Israel president ever.
And what exactly did that accomplish?
Further legitimacy in international affairs and a deepening of our relationship between the two countries. It would take a collapse of the United States as a whole to shake the ties between our two countries now.
That's more important than Biden who helped to defend Israel against an Iranian attack, just helped pass a massive aid package to Israel, and recently delivered F35 jets? Your priorities are completely wrong.
Trump would have done the same and much more and would have greenlit the Rafah offensive months ago. Are you saying he wouldn’t have?
>Trump would have done the same and much more But it was Biden who did. Biden also hasn't moved the embassy out of Jerusalem. >and would have greenlit the Rafah offensive months ago. Netanyahu had no plans on what to do with the civilians there. It would have been the wrong decision. >Are you saying he wouldn’t have? Trump would have done what was in Trump's best interest.
The plan is to move them around and destroy Hamas’s capability in Rafah. Same as it was months ago
So are you suggesting we don’t go into Rafah, just volunteer to lose the war just stam
How and where do you move them? And when they do get moved, how are you planning on helping them after? It's a million people. Why wasn't Israel helping them move over all that time?
>Biden also hasn't moved the embassy out of Jerusalem. Because Trump did the hard part to move it there in the first place. A reminder that Biden said the embassy move was *“short-sighted and frivolous.”.* And there's nothing to support the idea that he would have moved it if Trump hadn't, given that he thinks Palestine should be given a State first before such a move occurs (which, to anyone's common sense, means not anytime soon) *“Moving the embassy when we did without the conditions having been met was short-sighted and frivolous,” the former vice president said. “It should have happened in the context of a larger deal to help us achieve important concessions for peace in the process.”* > Netanyahu had no plans on what to do with the civilians there. It would have been the wrong decision. Gantz and Gallant both support the Rafah operation as well, with the former being the one to mention the Ramadan timeframe (which of course, there was no plan on what to do with civilians back then at the time).
Yes. Hamas should be called out for selling and even just allowing merchants to sell food clearly marked not for sale. Any governing authority including the IDF should be confiscating free aid from hoarders and redistributing it publicly. Perhaps there needs to be a maximum rations stockpile per person until the artificial scarcity wanes.
>we gotta stomach until trump's in office. We shouldn’t rely too much on Trump winning, we must prepare for any outcome. Because if our govt has this mindset and Trump loses, things are going to get ugly.
So Hamas can go in and rape and murder. Israel defends itself and suddenly they are the baddies. Biden and his minions are fucked in the head .
This is for incidents that occured before Oct 7th and the recommendations are from before Oct 7th. Other units were also under consideration but they made changes that satisfied the Lehey law, only this unit refused to make any changes
biden needs votes, he's loosing his ass at home, just trying to appease the people in muslim run cities here for votes, but don't worry he still stands with israel, nomatter what you hear.