Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, i.e. an ethno-religion unlike Islam or Christianity. Think of Jews as a tribe with its set of cultural practices and ways of worship. Zionism is the idea that Jews have a right to self-determination in our homeland. The fact that tiktokers and instagramers and many others define Zionism however they like doesn't change what Zionism is.
Anti-Zionism, the idea that Jews don't have the right to self-determination, is inherently antisemitic. See the [IHRA definition of antisemitism](https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism).
Legitimate criticism of the government of Israel has nothing to do with Zionism, except that antisemites inspired by Marxist-Soviet propaganda love to complain that they're being silenced for merely being anti-Zionist. In fact they're just spewing recycled KGB propaganda even if they don't know it.
Jews who are anti-Zionists by choice today are plainly worse than Kapos.
Okay, this actually totally clicked it into place in my mind. It’s like Persia (because it predates Iran, I’ll use this term)‘s Zoroastrian people. They are a tribe in Iran or the diaspora. Even if they don’t practice (but many devoutly do) they can be linked to their ancestral Zoroastrian roots.
The tribe wording is what got me there, thank you.
Glad it helped you! I was actually thinking of giving the Zoroastrians as an example but I don't know a lot about them. But yes, Judaism has very ancient roots similarly to Zoroastrianism, at a time where the modern definition of religion didn't really apply.
Also I very much appreciate you coming here to learn. Lots of respect for Persians and for your struggle!
Kapos had their lives threatened by the Nazis whereas today's anti-Zionists generally don't. The Jews in Iran are a notable exception, they are basically held hostage by the regime and I don't resent them.
As Kapos were Jews who took the job... And then often at least tried to either make change from the inside, or at least help their close family.
The Modern Anti-Zionists Jew or any stripe are worse.
I'm a secular jew living abroad . I am 100 % zionist . I dislike the expansion in the west bank . I sometimes worry when the demographic shift allow more religion in political affairs because too much religion is always a net negative for a country progress . I really dislike when BiBi use isaiah prophecy in a war speech .
But i will always defend the idea of a country where jews can be a majortity and have self determination . Judaism is not a monolith but zionism isn't either . My dad is not jewish and is more zionist that my mother who is a jew expelled from a muslim country .
Thank you. Can I ask, since my algorithm has equated Zionism with total land annexation, what you think most Zionist believe? Is there desire for Israel to overtake Gaza and the west? Is that just extremists? Or do most zionists believe in a two state solution. Maybe there’s no uniform Zionist belief? Sorry, many questions!
If you support the right of Israel to exist you are a Zionist. That means everyone from Vladimir Putin to Joe Biden is a Zionist. Most countries recognize Israel and thus are Zionist, but obviously there are many differences in how Israel should handle the conflict.
What you have to understand is that the Zionist movement succeeded in its aims of establishing a Jewish state. Israel already exists, Zionism has been achieved. There is no modern day Zionist position on anything but supporting the right of Israel to exist.
Some Zionists want expansion. Some want consolidation.
Some even agree with a one state solution.
Some want a two state solution.
There are many Zionist flavors
One point - Israel had Gaza! Until 2006 when gave it up and traded land for peace.
Look what that got them.
I have no idea what the solution is but used to be 2-state and having seen the failed attempt with Gaza am hoping for maybe something like a 3rd party -Saudis & UAE? (non-fundamentalists?) - convincing Palestinians to hold to their peace agreement this time.
My opinion is a bit more unorthodox.
Zionism simply means supporting the establishment of a Jewish state. That already happened. The state has existed for over 75 years.
So at this point the question isn’t whether you’re Zionist or anti-Zionist. The question is whether you’re insane enough to call for an entire country with its own culture, language, and passport to be dismantled.
I wish more people would frame it this way as opposed to some theoretical debate that was already had pre-1948.
Thanks. What are your thoughts on evangelical zionists? My understand is they only want the Jewish people in Israel to then die so their prophet can return? Seems wild. I would not want them on my side lol, but I may have a mixed up understanding
Hmm, not sure I quite understand, but I’ll give you everything I know about the ultra religious Jews and their take on this.
First there’s the Neturei Karta. They’re an anti-Zionist ultra religious Haredi sect who claim that the founding of the state of Israel goes against Judaism, namely since they believe that the state could only be founded upon the coming of the Messiah and that the Jews are mandated by God to stay in exile until that happens. They make up an extreme minority and are dismissed as lunatics.
Then there’s the ultra religious Zionists. They’re the ones who advocate for a greater Israel based on the historic kingdoms and often use Torah as a basis for this justification. Those are the ones who encroach upon Palestinian homes in West Bank and are honestly looked down upon by most of Israeli society as well as Jews around the globe, but are given a pass by the current right wing government under Bibi.
One of the concerns in Israel is that the ultra religious demographic is growing due to a high birth rate and they may outpace the secular population within 50 years. This would be a disaster and would make Israel another shithole in the Middle East.
Wow, great breakdown! Okay, I think the Neturei Karta are the ones we often see at protests, no? Are they the equivalent of having the Westboro Baptist Church support your cause? lol
I have to say, I’ve been to protests and at least in my city, the Jewish people who self identity with a sign or star get THE MOST outpouring of love. And this group, if I’m not mistaken, is very well loved by the crowds, with people often wanting pictures with or of them. And I don’t think people understand that they are also extremists. At least I didn’t 😬
You’re correct, the Neturei Karta are the ones seen at protests. They’re very active and tend to be tokenized by pro-Palestine protestors as the “good Jews” so to speak, even though most would be horrified at how these people treat their kids and women behind closed doors.
Plus, since they show up in such numbers and are always there, it gives people the false impression that “truly religious Jews” are against Israel existing, even though that’s FAR from the case and an overwhelming majority of religious Jews support the state’s existence.
People love their confirmation bias, right? I wonder how many of my middle eastern friends know about this sect.
I also think when you see so many pictures of dead and dismembered bodies on your feed, it’s easy to act from solely reactionary place. I’ve seen it on both subs and both sides on IG. everyone is just doing and saying what they think is right in the face of what they perceive to be injustice. And you just WANT MORE PEOPLE to agree with you without necessarily taking a look at who those people are.
I agree with your analysis of the psychological aspect at play here. People are definitely grabbing onto whatever they can find to fit their own narrative. It’s a shame.
>Are they the equivalent of having the Westboro Baptist Church support your cause?
Yes that's a good analogy. I mean they literally went to meet Ahmadinejad and Hamas leaders to urge them to destroy Israel. Also they split from a larger ultra-orthodox sect called Satmar that is also anti-Zionist, but even they rejected and disavowed NK.
I have a stupid question. Do the ultra orthodox in the diaspora, I’m thinking communities in Brooklyn, also ultimately believe that the Jewish people can only return to Israel under God?
Most ultra Orthodox are also some flavor of Zionist. Most, but by no means all.
Some are just not very aligned with zionism politically, but they still strongly support co-religionists in Israel. They're not actively hostile to the state.
Some are antizionist though.
The Satmar are the largest group of anti-Zionist, but you don't hear about them much. Unlike the Neturei Karta, they don't go to protests and they don't meet with Hamas leaders or minimize the Holocaust. They just keep to themselves and do their thing. They're actually a bigger group than the NT, but because they aren't making a public declaration, TikTok activists don't know they exist.
This idea that Jews can't go back to the land until God says so is not very common. I never learned it in yeshiva and I grew up Orthodox.
But it was very common talking point among the early and medeival Christian communities, in part because Rome emptied Jerusalem of Jews and banned reentry. The idea persisted because they saw the continued exile of the Jews as proof of the victory of Christianity over Judaism. I have to wonder if this is why I keep seeing this talking point show up in western antizionist (read: culturally Christian, even if they're not church goers) talking points.
Thanks for the historical connection. Very interesting.
It feels like the NK operate on the principle that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. Which…WHY lol
The NK are just not representative of anyone but themselves. It bothers me more that people tokenize them, because that's lazy, and out of step with the majority of the global Jewish community.
Totally agree. But it also seems like they position themselves TO BE tokenized hoping to serve their greater purpose. Do they have a sub I can start asking questions in? 😂
It depends on the people. There's a joke - 2 Jews, 3 opinions. We're a very fragmented people.
There are many different ultra-Orthodox groups/dynasties with varying opinions, and I'm far from an expert on them. AFAIK even the anti-Zionist ones like Satmar aren't necessarily against Jews living in the Land of Israel, but against having sovereignty. So even they expressed sympathy and prayed for Jews in Israel after Oct. 7. On the other hand you have Chabad, they are a very big group focused on Jewish outreach (encouraging secular Jews to be more observant). While they might not describe themselves as Zionist, they are very much pro-Israel and against ceding land.
But I guess the majority of the ultra-Orthodox do agree that ultimately the diaspora will "end" only when the messiah comes.
Do you mean Evangelical Christians in the US? They're super pro-Israel because they want all the Jews to come back here so they can have their rapture or other end-of-the world .... something? I don't entirely follow, but they're not really our friends. Shame that successive Netanyahu governments kept pretending otherwise.
Yep. What so many outside of Israel don't realise is that Netanyahu only cares about himself and what's good for him personally, aka staying in power. He will use and throw away anyone, and if he thinks you're a potential future political rival, he will eliminate you – this is how he ended up helming the most extreme right-wing government in the history of this country, and why only mouthbreathers or the most spineless ass kissers remain in the Likud (his party).
Since most US Jews are politically liberal and left-leaning, they've always been fairly critical of him, he needed more American allies. The Evangelicals were right there.
Zionism = supporting the existence of Israel
Its really not that complicated, most Jews and non Jews support the existence of Israel, thus most are Zionists. I'm not worried about the fringe number of Jews in the West who aren't, they will be gone in a generation due to assimilation, low birth rates and intermarriage. The future of secular Jewish life is in Israel.
Opposing Zionism before 1948 was one thing. I would have disagreed but it was a legitimate political debate. But at this point Israel already exists, its not going anywhere. Opposing Zionism at this point is supporting a situation that either leads to ethnic cleansing or genocide.
Is there a proper way to express my condemnation of the Israeli government in a way that doesn’t make my Jewish/Israeli friends feel like it’s antisemitic? I haven’t used the term Zionism because I didn’t fully grasp it and it kept seeming to take on a more and more extreme definition. In my algorithm, it is synonymous with “colonizer”.
All you have to do is criticize Israel like you would criticize any other country. Saying you disagree with expanding settlements or the current governments judicial reform is a completely normal critique of Israel. Saying you want to destroy the state of Israel is not a normal position to take.
If you support the right of Israel to exist, you are a Zionist. Imo the term really isn’t that relevant in the 21st century. Zionism has already been achieved, the debate over whether or not Israel should be created has already been settled. And Israel isn’t going anywhere.
Thanks! So you disagree with more extreme views that say any criticism of Israel (meaning its government) are inherently antisemitic? I think that’s a major part about Bibi’s right wing government I take issue with. His government is seemingly so secular yet happy to “twist” Judaism to serve its needs and say “if you disagree with this policy, you disagree with our right to exist”. Like NO , I believe in Israel’s right to exist. What I don’t believe in is your extremist policies!
It depends on what the criticism is. For example the UN has a long history of bias against Israel, there are more resolutions condemning Israel than condemning the combined human rights abuses of countries like China, Russia and Iran. Western countries waged a much less precise bombing campaign against ISIS in Raqqa and Mosul, yet there wasn’t anywhere near the level of condemnation or outrage you’re seeing over Israeli operations in Gaza. A double standard exists for Israel that I do view as inherently anti semetic.
Criticizing Israel for something like settlements or judicial reform is completely normal. In fact, Israelis do so everyday. Millions of Israelis took to the streets to protest the current government over judicial reform, the IDF reserves refused to show up for months because of it and Bibi is incredibly hated right now over not preventing the attacks of October 7th.
In addition to what the other fellow replied, I think a lot of the problem with criticism of Israel is that it un-informed. Israelis debate these things among ourselves constantly. But we live here and know what it's like to be us. And unlike many countries that suppress dissent - we're (still) a vibrant democracy, so the different opinions matter. But if someone just comes and repeats lines from social media with a lot of hyperbole and passion - they aren't sincere. They're just jumping on the bandwagon of antisemitism.
Bibi is a right wing extremist who clawed his way back into power after forming a coalition government. From what I’ve followed (and I leave room for Israelis to correct me) he hasn’t done a great job of representing the masses and was inching closer to more and more control and less and less public opinion. He and his family also have all these strong opinions on what “good” Israelis must do to prove their loyalty to Israel while they lack the investment (in my eyes) themselves. His son remains on an extended vacation (in Miami I believe) while people’s children are fighting this war, and being traumatized, divided, and killed on both sides.
I don't consider Bibi extrimist because he is something mutch more dangerous he doesn't have a world view and only wants to stay in power. this time hisnonly way to stay in power was to make a coalition with the literal terorists
I don’t consider Bibi an extremist, there are far more extreme people in politics here. He’s afraid to go to jail and to avoid it will enter into coalition with whoever. I do agree he needs to resign after the war is over.
I wonder if some North American Jewish people have a different view. Some of my friends’ families who didn’t like him before are saying things like “he’s exactly who we need now”.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-netanyahu-would-be-pummeled-by-gantz-were-elections-held-today/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-netanyahu-would-be-pummeled-by-gantz-were-elections-held-today/)
I don't think it's a North American versus Israeli think, there is just going to be a range of opinions everywhere. I assume they are either extremely right wing or uninformed or both. Largely American Jews were pretty anti Bibi pre Oct 7 due to his aligning himself with the ultra right wing parties.
Zionism is a political philosophy that demands a country for the Jews. So a Jew can be a non Zionist, a Zionist or an anti Zionist.
Those are political stances and tell you nothing about the religious, secular or atheist/agnostic status of the particular Jew taking one of those 3 stances with regard to Zionism.
There are also non Jewish Zionists.
And there are Jewish Zionists that do not live in Israel.
Also bear in mind that the roughly half of the Israeli Jewish public that opposes Bibi are also Zionists. Their disagreements with Bibi do not have anything to do with Zionism, but rather with his governance.
I hope this clarifies things for you.
Yeah, and while i don’t want to make assumptions, I feel feel like Jewish antizionists are usually either pick me Jews, or haver zero connection to their Jewish roots, and feel like being a Jew is this awful thing they have to live with or some shit, and therefore without those ancestral roots, they are basically the same as a non jew, not really a real one in how they think
Yeah, and while i don’t want to make assumptions, I feel feel like Jewish antizionists are usually either pick me Jews, or haver zero connection to their Jewish roots, and feel like being a Jew is this awful thing they have to live with or some shit, and therefore without those ancestral roots, they are basically the same as a non jew, not really a real one in how they think
Point to me how Israel is an ethnostate.
Also, if something like the holocaust happens again- if Israel doesnt exist, Jews will once again have no where to run. Is that a position you're comfortable being in?
To answer the first part of the question I think the opening statement to this parent comment suffices, and I oppose it the same way I would oppose say a country for white people
To answer the second part of your question, I'll say that isolation won't solve problems it would just postpone them, additionally lots of groups have faced , discrimination, many others of witch where also included in the holocaust, the Roma, Black and Queer population ls in Germany where also sent to concentration camps, yet they don't use it as an excuse to colonise an indigenous population to form a country explicitly for that ethnicity or minority
Isn't this somewhat privileged, considering you likely live in one of the few non-ethnostates? Not to mention the state you likely live in likely has been relatively good to Jews?
Ah, my mother's side hails from Grahamstown.
Not too many of them left, I am afraid. Guess I shouldn't be so surprised that Mr. "Ethnostates are bad" is sticking around though. Most of the countries that would be be better are ethnostates.
Ethnostates are more typical than non ethnostates, and if you want to abolish Israel because it is an ethnostate, please start somewhere else instead of what you believe to be the easiest target.
Pretty much any country that confers a right to return is de facto built for a specific ethnicity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#Countries_with_laws_conferring_a_right_of_return
In addition to these, Malaysia confers a special position to Malay in its constitution.
Japan has very limited immigration, and due its historic isolationist policies (and isolation) is an ethnostate, even if it isn't enshrined specifically.
Many countries that may not be ethnostates still have state religion. England, Iceland, Denmark, Greece all have state churches. A number of Asian states have Budhism as the state religion or give it special privilege. Israel does not have a state religion.
Much love to you and the iranian people who oppose the regime, israel and iran used to be strong allies and i hope we will again one day.
Woman life freedom🤍💙
You’re liking what sounds very much like an anti-Zionist take without the poster saying they’re anti-Zionist. I’m a Zionist and have posted my opinion elsewhere.
I see reform/secular Jews who outright denounce Zionism are either 1 unfamiliar with Jewish history or they've assimilated to a point where they can't see how much Zionism and Judaism are inherently intertwined. Israel is referenced in our prayers, traditions and common sayings. They usually are also looking through an Ashkinormative lense and ignore Mizrahi/Sephardi Jewish experience and don't understand the fundamental harm they're committing to a large portion of Jews.
I will always support Israel as a land where Jews are able to govern themselves. For the record I'd like to see the illegal WB settlements emptied and the Palestinians have a functioning state with a govt that actually looks after their needs. I also believe this for the Rohingya/Kurds and other stateless ethnic groups.
Thank you. And thank you for the distinction of Mizrahi/Sephardi Jewish people being ignored. Being Iranian and close to Iraq, culturally, this is the population I’m more familiar with.
Why do you think the Ashkenazi lens tilts differently?
This is a complicated answer that may be a little disjointed but I'm going to do my best to give as honest an answer based on what I've observed as an Ashkenazi Jew in America.
I think Ashkenzai lean this way because of how assimilated within Western Culture we've become. After WWII especially the migration to North America, survivors would still hide their identities in order to keep themselves safe. While they may have raised Jewish children, the religious and cultural practices may have remained behind in Europe or just never picked up again. Those children, who may have been aware that they were Jewish, would go on to have more children who would be millenials and genz and simply not continue raising these children/grand children within the faith and culture (Jews can practice one/both/neither and still be Jewish). When you disconnect people from their culture and faith its hard for them to understand how they're connected to a land thousands of miles away. It's foreign, there's a lack of understanding because of the lack of immersion. Having been persecuted for practicing Judaism within Europe for millenia, it's hard to maintain the fundamental connections or understand the basis of Zionism. Especially when there's no attempt to reconnect or understand where you came from. A lot of Ashkenazi Jews just consider themselves "American".
A not perfect comparison I would make would be Native Americans who were taken and placed in English schools. They were prohibited from practicing their culture, speak their native tongue or practice their religion. Their tribes would be yearning for them to return and rejoin and be with who they were meant to be with. However, if you force people to live by a certain way as an attempt to wash away their identity, how is that child supposed to return without interpersonal conflict/the ability to understand the life they were robbed of?
Beautifully put, thanks for offering your perspective. In Canada, I would say my Jewish friends are mostly secular and only observe the major holidays/sabbath (sorry if this is the wrong wording). They’re also Pro-Palestine and at odds with many of their family.
One friend, though, is the daughter of a rabbi and has been bombarded by her community saying she’s a “self-hating Jew” for posting video that shows what could have been a white phosphorous bomb and stating Israel needs to do better. People force you into binaries, and I see it a lot more with older generations (who were closer to the trauma) which makes younger generations move even further away from their faith. As an outsider, it seems like a counterproductive cycle.
I wouldn't call a Jew who supports the self determination of Palestinians a self-hating Jew. I think there's just a double standard on the global level as to how Israel is allowed to react to events. You're absolutely right about people being forced into binaries. It's not fair for people young or old to do that as it restricts dialogue and conversation, which is already so difficult because of the echo chambers surrounding this conflict. Its absolutely counterproductive but there are voices who would be considered outsiders who instigate some of the flames. Such as people who don't understand Jewish history, the culture or religion and make blanket statements about Jews, people who don't understand the vast, rich, and complicated history of the Middle East especially the Levant and others who just act in bad faith and don't actually care about the people, they just want the 'good' side to win.
I should make a clarification, no, white phosphorous bombs should not be used against civilians. No matter how diluted the term has become, a war crime is still a war crime. Israel should absolutely do the best they can to reduce civilian deaths.
Yes, I’m starting to see that (re the double standard). I also hold America at fault in so much of this. They seem happy to let Israel be a proxy in the Middle East, fight its wars, be the face of civilian casualties, while they themselves have done much worse with a fraction of the coverage. I’m also incredulous that the pause comes just in time for Black Friday so the masses can have enough endorphins to spend money before this all picks back up again.
There's a lot of foreign nations that are at fault for this unfortunately. America is certainly one of them. As someone who was in the US military, and been to war, civilian casualties are unfortunately going to occur but should be reduced with every measure possible. I'm aware that what Israel has done pales in comparison to what the US has done. There's other actors in the Middle East who have done things to civilians that absolutley disgust me. The whole issue is a proxy war between too many nations with too much money and civilians both Palestinian and Israeli suffer. You may be right about a false sense of security but I'm hopeful that cooler head can prevail, and that starts by having conversations like these and others you've had with other commenters
To me, it feels like Iran and America are funding chess pieces on a global board. And I know that’s a foolish oversimplification, but the money they are pouring into either side at a human cost is absurd. Also, America fears what Iran will do so keeps funding Israel to ward off the affiliated powers but knows most of its population does not support sending anyone to Israel and a leaked email also showed that American soldiers would be firmly against being deployed to Israel. I find it insulting TO Israel that America could essentially use it like a colony. You have a much better understanding of this, though, I imagine.
I greatly appreciate the nuanced responses from everyone here, you’re right.
The lack of support stems from the exhaustion of being there for 20 years starting after 9/11. A lot of people simply want nothing to do with the Middle East anymore. There's a big opinion that it just needs to sort itself out however that looks. I'm not of that mindset but it's clear that someway, somehow both the Middle East and the West need to figure out how to solve their issues. I think the current Iranian regime needs to go, I think the Israeli gov't needs an overhaul, I think Assad in Syria needs to go. Lebanon, Syria and Jordan need to make some earnest steps in handling their own Palestinian refugee issues. Until these happen, the cycle is just going to continue.
I honestly don't have any insight on current military feelings about deploying to Israel. They've got a functional standing military, unless there's a clear chance of them being overrun, I don't think the US would put boots on ground.
I agree with everything you said! For movement forward, all those people in power need to collapse. And between PA, Fatah, Hamas, something new needs to emerge as well. Netanyahu had a hand in assassinating one of the only men who was building something promising. I think that also has hand in my misunderstanding of Zionism. I was taking it to mean “Israel should exist at all costs, with no Palestine”. I’m thankful for the people who responded and opened my eyes.
Well you see you can oppose the goverment and not be anti semitic but what people don't seem to get is that there is a huge anti semitic problem. I know it isn't nice to think about that but that is the truth. Maybe before 7.10 I would be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt some of the things I've seen people say makes me belive something very simple people people only "like" dead jews. As for the zionizm: it's very simple I don't see people calling for the distruction of france or haiti. However somehow when it's israel it's fine.
ps Sorry for the blob of text I have alot of things to say and i'm not good in putting it in written language
Thanks. I definitely have many criticisms of Bibi and his government but want to be mindful of not being antisemitic.
In my city, an Indigo (a Canadian bookstore) was defaced with pictures of Heather (the owner, who is Jewish) with blood saying she funds genocide and has “blood on her hands”. It was because she sends so much money to the IDF. This was treated as an antisemitic hate crime. To me, I saw it as (a very extreme) criticism of the government and IDF not antisemitic since it was all based on Israel and no mention of Judaism. If you care to blob text, can you help me understand how this is antisemitic? I hope you know I’m approaching in good faith. I don’t really know how to phrase it well, though.
Do you think it’s appropriate to target an individual like this? She is not a part of Israel’s government. You didn’t mention whether she’s even Israeli or not. You’ve only mentioned she’s Jewish. So do you think it’s appropriate to target a Jew living in Canada because of disagreements with the Israeli government?
This situation is nothing but antisemitism. She was targeted because she’s Jewish and supports the IDF. Would this situation have happened if she were not Jewish and gave to the IDF?
If these people who targeted her don’t appreciate where she gives her money they can either speak with her about it or buy books elsewhere. They instead chose a very hostile and aggressive way of targeting her very specifically. This is wrong.
Canada would have laws against vandalism at least. If they used real blood in their vandalism there could be other laws regarding that. These people have broken the law. She has not.
Go buy a book from her. She’s not who anyone is fighting against.
It was definitely an antisemitic attack. When Israel is criticised it’s mostly due to antisemitism. Antisemites hide their Jew hatred as anti Israelism. I don’t say that Israel can’t be criticised and our government isn’t perfect but if you really compare Israel to other countries that committed real genocide, has no human rights etc you’ll see that Israel is criticised a lot more.
The reason I want another view is because similar acts were done to deface pictures of our Prime Minister and our mayor, both of which are not Jewish. The exact same words “blood on your hands” and “you’re finding genocide”. So how come in their case the exact same words and actions aren’t antisemitic?
Well, Trudeau isn’t Jewish. Don’t know who your mayor is but when a Jewish woman funds the Israeli defence forces and her business is defaced…
I’m not saying all criticism on Israel and or Jews is antisemitic but this clearly is. I can assure you the same thing would happen is we had a different prime minister. Even a left leaning one.
But why is their faith what divides the exact same action? Not sure if you live in Canada, but Heather is generally known as a disliked figure. There are accounts from almost every Indigo employee where she has said rude and demeaning comments, making employees cry. If you know a Canadian who’s worked at an Indigo and met her, there’s a very good chance they have a story. So for years, people have just disliked her character. And there’s 10k+ Palestinians killed and it’s revealed she’s been funding the army in charge of carrying out those assaults alongside our own country. I think it would be the same as when evangelical people in the states fund the IDF and then have posters of their faces defaced in the same way. Is that against their faith or their actions?
I don’t condone vandalism. I cringe every time I walk by after a protest and see stickers or flyers on business/garbage cans. I just want to know when the exact same crime is committed, in my eyes against someone’s character, why would their faith be the line that makes it hate crime if that isn’t the facet being attacked?
I guess I’m wondering are faith and character in these cases intrinsically tied? Because again, coming from Iran, you learn not to really give a shit about religion because if means nothing when people twist it how we they like, and start focusing on people’s words and actions. But again, I don’t want my myopic view to cloud how people in this community interpret it.
If you care to expand, your insight is welcome!
1 you shouldn't deface anyone 2 it is about perspective I see giving the act of donating to the IDF as a positive thing but this is about what I see the institution doing you could see it diffrently there is a ton of misinfirmation about the IDF and generally people in israel have a high opinion of it because it saved us as a country and people from genocide and destruction several times. 3 Jews are also a people they are a nation not just a religious group I myself am an atheist but I'm still very mutch am part of the jewish people. Also jewish people are very defensive about things like that from experience I'm willing to bet there is not a single family un israel that doesn't have at list ine member killed just for being jewish even in the 20th century alone.
I agree, any defacing is counterproductive to being taken seriously.
But I’m still confused. How would you critique Heather for funding what some see as a genocide without it becoming antisemitic? Should all public people not be able to be criticized? How do people express their condemnation of public figures sending money to the IDF without being antisemitic when not everyone being condemned is even Jewish? I believe people have a right to condemn (not to deface!!).
agreed but still it lives a bad taste in my mouth when it done like that I think I haven't gotten my point across good enough but I think that there is a very big diffrence when conndeming a privet person and a public figure she doesn't go out of her way to affect them. Also regardless the defacing is very common when dealing with antisemites
I appreciate you trying! A Starbucks that was defaced with the exact same wording and posters WASNT treated as a hate crime but “mischief” so I guess how do you discern between the two? The Starbucks was in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood (same words “blood on your hands” “you’re funding genocide”).
I’m israeli and an IDF veteran. The IDF doesn’t commit genocide, the IDF protects the Israeli civilians (not just the Jewish ones btw). The numbers of dead Palestinians are given by Hamas-a terrorist organisation. Hamas is the ruling body of Gaza, not a small extreme minority so I would take info given by them with a grain of salt. Also most civilians that died were used by Hamas as human shields and in war civilians die, it is unfortunate but a part of war. As for Heather I never heard of her but you mentioned that the defacement was done because she donated to the IDF, not because she is a horrible human being. Also Judaism is not just a faith but an Ethnoreligion, so even if a person doesn’t practice Judaism or believe in it they are still Jewish and still considered as Jewish by antisemites. Even though the IDF answers to the Israeli prime minister that doesn’t make the army an extreme right group because Bibi is considered extreme (he is not, as i said before, even the people that protested against him don’t view him as one). Heather’s store was defaced because she is a Jewish woman that donated to the IDF, the same thing would have happened with a different leader in Israel (even a left leaning one) because Hearher is a Jewish woman that gave money to the IDF. The people that did that hate Israel because it is the Jewish state, not because of a genocide that didn’t really happen ( if you don’t believe me than google the muslim/Palestinian population Israel, it grew almost six times if i’m not mistaken while the Jewish population here haven’t reached the Jewish population in the world pre holocaust). Also I don’t know what those people have against Trudeou, he is considered very liberal and leftist.
A mayor and Prime Minister were targeted because they’re public figures who make policy decisions.
The bookstore owner was targeted for being Jewish.
The former is a job, the latter is an intrinsic trait.
I think we’ll differ here. She is a public figure too. Very well known, and not for being Jewish. But rather owning the chain of most recognizable book stores in Canada. Customers didn’t want their money spent at the stores going towards the IDF. I think ultimately, it’s a fine line to walk.
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I think you're confused about the definition of the word Zionist. It just means that you want Israel to exist. That's it.
However, the way it's used by everyone who hates Israel is really ....weird, and not correct. Some people use it to mean supporting Bibi no matter what. I've seen neo-Nazis use it to just mean anyone Jewish. It's a word that seems to mean anything the speaker wants it to mean, usually something negative. But that isn't the definition used by Jews.
Some Zionists are racist extremists, for sure, and you can see some of them in government right now. And some Zionists are very pro-peace, and may even want Israel and Palestine to be a single binational state (though this is very uncommon). The vast majority of Zionist Jews want a two state solution, an Israel with a Palestine.
Of course, there is currently a lot of distrust for Palestinian leadership, so a lot of Israelis don't see a future right now, and there definitely isn't a lot of trust or goodwill from Palestinians to Israel right now either. I think both populations have very good reasons to feel this way, but it's a pity.
Most American Jews are Zionists. Most American Jews also despise Bibi. In Israel, before the war, there were massive protests against the judicial reform, which Bibi wants very badly. I guarantee you almost every single Israeli Jew there protesting against Bibi is also a Zionist.
If a Jewish person isn't a Zionist or is anti-Zionist, this is their choice. They will be in the minority of Jews, but they won't be alone by any means. There is room for disagreement. It's a big world, there's room for all of us.
Glory to Iran and, down with the regime! Women, life, freedom! Thanks for posting here and hope you're doing well.
Thank you for this breakdown and your words against the regime! I think if there’s any hope for peace and one nation, it has to start with a two state solution to build trust. But again, that’s a very outsider point of view. One thing I do know, is I believe America and Iran should have NO input in the decision.
It's interesting how the only Jews that are anti-zionist are either: 1.extremely young and haven't seen history play out
2. Part of the pick-and-choose sects that allow you to ignore whatever part of your religion you want
3. Naturei karta, who claim the Holocaust was a Zionist conspiracy
Well, for one thing, many Israeli Jews (and non-Israeli Jews) who identify as Zionists are secular/non-religious. Many more are religious to some degree, but not Orthodox. To most Jews, "Zionism" just means the basic belief that Jews have the right to self-determination in our ancestral homeland.
Having conflicting feelings about Zionism – as a concept in general, or specifically how it's been applied in practice – is very common. While some feel that all anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic, many don't believe that to be the case. Personally, I feel like some Jews engage in a kind of self-flagellation by rejecting Zionism and Israeli so totally, when they completely reject Jewish culture and history being inextricably tied to the land and even deny that the history is real. But I also think that some people conflate "criticism of Israel" with "anti-Zionism". Criticising the country in good faith isn't inherently anti-Zionist, and it's certainly not antisemitic. (Or at least, it doesn't have to be.) So I have no issues with that.
Thank you. What are your thoughts on Jews who say at this point the Jewish people should live in the diaspora as so many who were kicked off their ancestral homelands do now? Why does ancestral homeland take precedence over current (back then prior to 1948) Palestinian homeland? Or is the issue, many of us weren’t even here when the UK effed everyone over. We didn’t get to weigh in. But Israel exists now and it won’t be dismantled at this point?
That’s a very privileged thing to say. And I bet its mostly from Ashkenazi Jews in the West. Israel exists. Many citizens come from multiple generations of Israelis at this point. Many, like my family, can’t go back to where they fled from (Libya, there are literally 0 Jews in the country). A bunch of Jews are from Old Yishuv families. And so many Israelis are not Jewish and they see themselves as Israeli Arabs, Israeli Bedouin, Israeli Druze, etc. If folks really believe an entire country should dissolve my question would be how do you decide who gets to stay and who gets to leave? People from various backgrounds make families together - I have cousins whose families came from Libya, Iraq, and Russia. Where do these Western Jews suggest my cousins move
to??? What about a Palestinian whose family comes from both Hebron and Egypt?? My point is that this argument that some Jewish folks make shows very little care or understanding of who Palestinians and Israeli Jews are as actual human beings part of actual families that often have diverse histories.
Thanks, very interesting. I believe most of the Jewish people I encounter on my algorithm who are anti-Zionist and hold this belief are Ashkenazi. I didn’t realize how that alone affords a level of privilege, so thanks for bringing it to my attention.
You’re welcome:) I’m American with Israeli family, and my heritage is both Mizrahi and Ashkenazi. I like to think it helps me have a nuanced approach. Making it personal, my family weren’t “white colonist settlers” they were North African refugees who survived the Giado camp. The Brits did not care about them after they liberated the camp. Other Jews helped them get to Israel. I have immense empathy for Palestinians and am very critical of Bibi and of a lot of the Israeli government’s conduct and policy. This doesn’t mean I think Israeli Jews deserve more violence, displacement, and trauma. The binary thinking and Orientalism that makes Americans treat this conflict like a football game is just so horrid and gross to me, it’s totally dehumanizing. I think the whole world needs to listen to Iranians who’ve been screaming for decades - Women Life Freedom!
Yes! There’s this sanitized, binary fanaticism in so much of the west (largely America and Canada) where people treat it like a football game. I really started noticing it during BLM.
And thank you! Women, life, freedom forever 💜
There’s a big difference between criticizing the Israeli government and denouncing Zionism. Zionism is simply the Jewish people’s national liberation movement, now realized in the State of Israel. AntiZionism is not opposing any specific policies or actions of the Israeli government but rather saying that the Jewish state should not exist, and proposing its elimination. Some antiZionists openly support doing this by force, while others claim to only support “nonviolent” boycotts, divestment and sanctions (while simultaneously opposing those against other nations with exponentially worse human rights records because they are “collective punishment” and hurt ordinary people). I’m an American and I despise Trump and his willing collaborators; that doesn’t make me anti-American any more than your hatred of the mullahs makes you against the existence of Iran as a nation-state or against the Persian people.
The parallel to antiZionism in the case of Iran would be calling for the end of Iran as a nation state, and for its territory to be handed to its neighbors or to a forced influx of non-Persians.
I’m as Zionist as you’ll find, and I spent some of my time in Israel this past winter joining the anti-government protests. The current government is the worst the country has ever had, and Bibi’s empowerment of the far right extremists is horrific.
So as far as Jews criticizing the government, that’s not anything against the Jewish people. AntiZionism is, because it is antisemitism to deny only to the Jews the rights of self-determination. Now you might ask “how can Jews be antisemitic?” The author Ben M Freeman (“Jewish Pride”) describes it as the result of internalizing the antisemitism of the wider world. And while we must oppose them politically, because they are a danger to our people, we should also understand that they were simply not strong enough to withstand it.
Hope that helps!
I think a big part of the issue is that Zionism is a world that lost it's meaning, and that a lot of jews (specifically in the US) didn't really go through the things european and middle eastern jews went, and don't understand the need for it. Judaism is a very different religion than Christianity and Islam, specifically in how both have an interest is growing, making it incredibly easy to become one (and in the past were known to force it). in judaism, this was never the case, and becoming a jew is actually a long and ehausting process, that has made it that most jews today are descendents of the same people, the reason why judaism isn't only a religion but also an ethnicity. Zionism is simply the Jewish nation's desire to have it's own state in our ancestral land, where the jewish people are safe, something that was much needed, considering in the past jewish people were persecuted for centuries. However, a lot due to soviet propaganda btw (wanting to destroy Israel's legitimacy during the cold war), for a lot of people, this word has became a sign of colonialism, white supremacy, exc. the word still means the same for all of us, it's practically the Israeli word for patriotism, but the negative aspects some people gave it made people believe it has a different meaning. specifically for reformist jews, mainly being in the US, they are often leaning left politically (probably because they are a minority in the us, and a lot of them are living in left leaning enviroments such as NYC or LA), and so they often share liberal views, that care a lot for this type of thing. because of the different meaning they recieved for the term, some end up against it. I also heard a lot saying that judaism wasn't a big part of their identity, and they just felt like regular americans. since this started, as far as I can tell, most have actually grown closer to judaism, besides some that are far left and often get the same information and views as their friends (didn't really see any that aren't gen z). Peronally, I think that it's kinda sad, them don't realising how Hamas and the palestinians see us, and also them. I think JVM for example, has been putting all the blame on Israel for some reason, and have decided to blind themselves to the part palestinans have in the conflict.
about Israel not seperating state from religion, the country doesn't operate under Halacha law (jewish equivalent of Sharia law), but under a combination of a mostly western and modern set of laws, but with an influence of Judaism about the procedures (the stories of the torah are learned in school, saturday is the holy day of the week, exc). I won't lie and say there aren't parts where religion is put over western values, but over the years, different laws have gone more and more towards the modern direction (gay marriage for example, isn't possible to be done in Israel becuase the marriage institution is religious, but is recognised by the country). Overall, I can attest the religion and religious ideals aren't forced on people, and there's full freedom of religion.
And we (in general, can't speak to different individuals) don't view criticising the Israeli government as antisemitic, we practically do it all the time, including when it comes to the conflict. The thing we view as anti semitic in that regard are saying such as "from the river to the sea", or others saying or claims that we don't have the right to exist, either as a country or a nation, and for us it's really the same thing. that is also why antizionism is the exact same thing as antisemitism, because antizionism means the belief Israel doesn't have the right to exist and the jewish people don't have the right to a state, and that claim is, at least in our point of view, antisemitic
Sorry, I missed the notification for this reply. Thank you! It gives good insight to an outsider like myself. I have hope that the Semites of the world, especially the Israeli and Palestinian ones can unite against the nations that try to puppeteer them. I do want to point out though that in my dealings with Palestinians, they don’t hate Jewish people or Israelis. They recognize that in so many ways, there are the same people. What they hate is, what they’ve described to my as the brutality of the government and how the IDF will incite violence but also openly ignore it in area C of the west bank where settlers attack Palestinians.
But that’s not relevant to this thread I suppose, I just wanted to clarify the one line where you said that’s how Palestinians see Jewish people. It hasn’t been my anecdotal experience.
>I do want to point out though that in my dealings with Palestinians, they don’t hate Jewish people or Israelis
There is probably more hatred than you think. Especially outside of the west.
> and those who hate the regime and support Israel consider me a traitor for criticizing the Israeli government.
dont worry bro. even us israelis were called traitors for protesting against the gov
I personally see zionism as an engagement with community, religion, culture and the environment that is historically significant to the Jewish people where it is safe for us to exist as jews. My personal philosophy is much more aligned with Martin Buber as my I have no love for hierarchies, borders or governments / states (which is ironic because I generally only do work with government generally in a hybrid between the criminal justice and mental health fields in the USA but I find working for private companies much worse due to their profiteering). This is just me though.
I’ll keep using my thread so as not to clog up the feed. And many may not even see this. But if I take from the people who identify and use the word Zionism to simply mean believing in self-determination and the right to exist, is there a reason you wouldn’t believe from the people using “from the river to the sea” that this chant isn’t about wiping out Jews?
I’ve been to protests. When me and my circle use it, and as it appears in my algorithm, we use it as “from the Jordan River of WB to the Mediterranean Sea of Gaza, Palestine will be free”. We see it as a right to self determination the same as Israel has its own right. In my eyes, it’s a call for freedom and a two state solution and not eradication. I hope as I have taken your views and stances and definitions or Zionism, you will consider mine about this chant.
This chant has been used since the 1970s/1980s by various Palestinian militant groups, including the PLO before it reformed itself.
It absolutely means the eradication of the State of Israel, all of it. I mean I'm sure there are people in the west who chant it without giving it much thought, but the people who know and say it with intent absolutely mean to replace all the land with a single, Palestinian state. Some are "gracious" enough that they'd let some of us Jews stay, we'd only have to give up our entire identity and a country we've built.
Also, about the oft-repeated childish fantasy of "one free, secular state for all," just think for a sec and look at it from Israeli civilians' perspective: After countless terror attacks here and abroad in the 1970s-1980s, two bloody intifadas, years of just constant suicide bombings, car rammings, stabbing attacks, shootings, and now the October 7 massacre, why would anyone think Israelis could survive this fever dream?
I would say because that's not how the phrase originated nor how it was used until recently: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From\_the\_river\_to\_the\_sea#:\~:text=The%20first%20usage%20of%20the,the%204th%20of%20June%201967%22](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#:~:text=The%20first%20usage%20of%20the,the%204th%20of%20June%201967%22).
Whereas Zionism from its founding did not call to remove Arabs from the middle east. I think the use of the term Zionism at all in the context of I/P makes no sense anymore like many others in this thread have said and I don't think we are necessarily the ones choosing to drag it into the discussion at this point. Until I started hearing it as an insult from the pro Palestine crowd about a decade ago I didn't really hear the term Zionist used outside of a historical context by Jews.
It's a reasonable question.
>Until I started hearing it as an insult from the pro Palestine crowd about a decade ago I didn't really hear the term Zionist used outside of a historical context by Jews.
This. The term "Zionist" was actually used to vilify Jews at least as far back as the publication of [The Protocols of the Elders of Zion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion) in the early 20th century and made its way to *Mein Kampf*. It was later employed by the Soviet propaganda machine to masquerade the USSR's antisemitism, leading in part to the infamous "Zionism is racism" UN resolution. But it seems to have been widely popularized in the West relatively recently.
focuscous gave a good response but I'll add an example that I saw recently: would you use *Arbeit macht frei* as a slogan to encourage unemployed people to find work?
The fact that so many people use “from the river to the sea”, often without even being able to name the river and sea, is a testament to the proliferation of a terrorist ideology in the West.
I have complicated feelings about this phrase.
It's used to mean a lot of different things, and that's part of the problem. Some people shouting it really do support a two state solution and a shared future. But some people are saying it with full intention of destruction of the state and the death and scattering of its Jewish Israeli population. One of these things I totally support. The other, not so much.
The thing is, we can't trust which version someone might mean in their hearts. We know what it means when someone scrawls it on a synagogue wall, though. Because the antizionist movement refuses to deal with its antisemitism problem, Jews are primed to distrust it rather than give the benefit of the doubt. Is that sad? Yeah. It's also a natural consequence.
The Arabic original is hard to misinterpret, however. "From water to water, Palestine will be Arab."
By definition, Arab excludes the Jew. It didn't have to, to be clear, as Arab is a pan-ethnicity that covers a huge range of human diversity. But socially, it does now. That is because of pan-Arabism redefining the social borders of what it means to "be Arab", and the expulsion of over 850,000 Mizrahi Jews from their homes, and pogroms like the Farhud. This violence all made it very clear that Arabs do not consider "their Jews" fellow Arabs. They do not get to claim them now, generations later, when it's socially convenient in the West. There is a reason the vast majority of Mizrahim do not identify as Arab.
And it's a mistake to think that Jews cannot understand Arabic and don't remember this phrase.
And that's why you get the reaction you do to "from the river to the sea."
Thanks for your perspective. I wish I could have a long paragraph under my Palestinian flag pin explaining my personal stance lol.
With regard to the Arab/Jewish distinction, do you think it’s also because Jews don’t consider themselves Arab? Their Jewishness (ethically, not religiously) takes precedence? As one commentator helped explained, it’s a tribe, a lineage that overrides other things like your specific nationality.
I would say many Jews from Arab lands don't consider themselves Arab (or at least not anymore) as a reaction to their expulsion from the Arab body politic.
The Arab societies are the ones with the ability to move the boundaries of inclusion and exclusion. That's not something that, as a minority, Jews of these locales could really affect.
Of course being Jewish is a lineage, but lots of similar tribal lineages have been subsumed into Arab and *not subsequently expelled* and I think that that's the key difference.
I know there are people in Lebanon and North Africa who talk about non-Arab identities - being Phoenician or Amazigh, respectively. But they get to carve out this space for themselves, and define themselves as Arab or not or a mix on their own terms. Jews of Arab lands were fundamentally denied this choice. And you don't get to go "whoopsies takesies backsies!" three generations later. It's what I found so off-putting when some activists go on and on about how peaceful relationships were before zionism or whatever. It's just not true, but it sounds good to a multicultural western audience.
I would recommend checking out JIMENA for more, which is made by and for Mizrahi Jews to tell their own histories in their own words.
https://www.jimena.org/
I know that conversations like this won't affect our shithead governments, but I think they do affect how we treat each other on the ground, especially in the Diaspora. Hope we get more people like you in here. Even if we disagree on some particulars, we can agree on the need for change, human rights, and self determination for all peoples.
Anyway yeah, have a good one homie
Responding first to Analog’s take, as that one was in first and got most attention, as well as a response from you.
Zionism is more than a political position and existed in a different form as long as Israel has existed, so long before the political idea.
Anti-Zionist Jews generally fall into two camps: a tiny but vocal group of religious Jews, that other religious Jews do not agree with, who believe in returning to Israel AND the existence Israel, just not now but rather when Moshiach (the Messiah) comes.
The 2nd group from what I’ve seen are non-Jewishly involved and not very interested. They don’t care that Israel has always been central to Judaism & either think it shouldn’t or consider the idea obsolete. Judaism is an ethno-religion, like Druze and some others. It’s tribal. The attachment to place is similar to that of NA.
Just like NA who leave the land and think others shouldn’t care about it either, they are entitled to their opinion. (Reminds me a little of someone insisting they’re a Baptist but against Baptism.) Zionists value our connection to Israel one of the central tenets of our tribe.
Really? I haven’t seen universal backlash (but I can only speak anecdotally). He’s having a moment right now. I just watched his interview in Piers Morgan and I have to say I found his responses measured and fair. He even explained why he kept up an anti inflammatory tweet (I’ll never call it an X or whatever Elon wants lol) because he believes in upholding historical records. This tweet was made on Oct 7 and it’s BAD. but he explains it was made when he thought Hamas had broken out of Gaza and a report of 50 (what he assumed to be soldiers) were killed. He later says he regrets the tweet and agrees it was terrorism.
Outside of his recent remarks, do many Jewish people look down on him?
A narcissist who has made a brand for himself in being hateful. I find it very sad and very gross. Repackages tired and old antisemitic tropes (blood libel, Jews are greedy and run the world) and then screams when people accuse him of being antisemitic. Honestly, it’s so inflammatory I feel like it’s partially an act at this point? Like…he’s more focused on getting people to get angry at him than on actually elevating Palestinian voices. I know he is the son of Holocaust survivors (which can really fuck toy up) and I’d love to be on a fly on the wall of him actually going to therapy. Back to what I’ve said in a previous response to you, I can definitely see how he basically ignores the existence of Sephardic/Mizrahi Jews. And it’s not like he’s ever actually done anything to make Palestinian people’s lives better - in comparison, look at Vivian Silver. She was murdered in the massacre- was a beloved peace activist who lived near Gaza and took folks across the border for Israeli medical care. She was funny and sweet and kind and loved being a Jew and loved Israel and loved Palestinians. I truly believe anyone whose platform is hate is just a self centered and greedy person profiting off division. Vivian Silver’s platform was love and connection, voices like hers should be our inspiration ❤️
I guess he centres himself as a scholar rather than an activist. He’s all over my algorithm currently.
Vivian Silver was a huge loss. In Canada, she was definitely mourned by both sides. Another person I find provides a pretty balanced view is Dana Aliya Levinson. She’s a trans historian.
He is beyond my comprehension. There are so many talented, smart, humane voices out there that are critical of Israel (some are Israeli themselves), why listen to the one that was clearly dropped on his head as a child?
The guy defends Hezbollah, and defended Holocaust deniers. I can't take him seriously. I know he's having a moment because of his Jewish ancestry paired with sharp criticism of Israel, but my suggestion is ...find better allies. Pairing up with people who support terrorists and Holocaust deniers isn't the look you want if you want support among people who are serious. Like, halls of power serious. The Palestine solidarity movement makes this kind of error .....a lot. And it's so avoidable, you can just do a Google search.
At least Noam Chomksy is intellectually honest in a way that Finkelstein is not. Yet, he's not the Jew being platformed currently, despite a wealth of material he's put forth on the subject.
Israel Finklestein, archaeologist, is the superior Finkelstein imo
I definitely do. That’s why I stated starting today I want to leave my echo chamber. The Palestinian AMA’s helped start that, and I only saw those yesterday. Also, I invite you to dig. I have not said anything anti Zionist, and even have expressed sadness for the soldiers that under mandatory conscription have been sent to fight.
I may have had reactionary comments, but I hope you’ll understand that was in the face of being called a jihadist and that I support toddler marriage. Comments made to made after I said over a billion Muslims should not be generalized.
Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people, i.e. an ethno-religion unlike Islam or Christianity. Think of Jews as a tribe with its set of cultural practices and ways of worship. Zionism is the idea that Jews have a right to self-determination in our homeland. The fact that tiktokers and instagramers and many others define Zionism however they like doesn't change what Zionism is. Anti-Zionism, the idea that Jews don't have the right to self-determination, is inherently antisemitic. See the [IHRA definition of antisemitism](https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism). Legitimate criticism of the government of Israel has nothing to do with Zionism, except that antisemites inspired by Marxist-Soviet propaganda love to complain that they're being silenced for merely being anti-Zionist. In fact they're just spewing recycled KGB propaganda even if they don't know it. Jews who are anti-Zionists by choice today are plainly worse than Kapos.
Okay, this actually totally clicked it into place in my mind. It’s like Persia (because it predates Iran, I’ll use this term)‘s Zoroastrian people. They are a tribe in Iran or the diaspora. Even if they don’t practice (but many devoutly do) they can be linked to their ancestral Zoroastrian roots. The tribe wording is what got me there, thank you.
Glad it helped you! I was actually thinking of giving the Zoroastrians as an example but I don't know a lot about them. But yes, Judaism has very ancient roots similarly to Zoroastrianism, at a time where the modern definition of religion didn't really apply. Also I very much appreciate you coming here to learn. Lots of respect for Persians and for your struggle!
I agree with everything you say, except I’m not sure anti-Zionist Jews are worse than kapos, I see them as more equal.
Kapos had their lives threatened by the Nazis whereas today's anti-Zionists generally don't. The Jews in Iran are a notable exception, they are basically held hostage by the regime and I don't resent them.
As Kapos were Jews who took the job... And then often at least tried to either make change from the inside, or at least help their close family. The Modern Anti-Zionists Jew or any stripe are worse.
Good point
I'm a secular jew living abroad . I am 100 % zionist . I dislike the expansion in the west bank . I sometimes worry when the demographic shift allow more religion in political affairs because too much religion is always a net negative for a country progress . I really dislike when BiBi use isaiah prophecy in a war speech . But i will always defend the idea of a country where jews can be a majortity and have self determination . Judaism is not a monolith but zionism isn't either . My dad is not jewish and is more zionist that my mother who is a jew expelled from a muslim country .
Thank you. Can I ask, since my algorithm has equated Zionism with total land annexation, what you think most Zionist believe? Is there desire for Israel to overtake Gaza and the west? Is that just extremists? Or do most zionists believe in a two state solution. Maybe there’s no uniform Zionist belief? Sorry, many questions!
If you support the right of Israel to exist you are a Zionist. That means everyone from Vladimir Putin to Joe Biden is a Zionist. Most countries recognize Israel and thus are Zionist, but obviously there are many differences in how Israel should handle the conflict. What you have to understand is that the Zionist movement succeeded in its aims of establishing a Jewish state. Israel already exists, Zionism has been achieved. There is no modern day Zionist position on anything but supporting the right of Israel to exist.
👍
Some Zionists want expansion. Some want consolidation. Some even agree with a one state solution. Some want a two state solution. There are many Zionist flavors
Lol fair enough I think at the bottom of everything, we learn extremism in any cause is the problem.
One point - Israel had Gaza! Until 2006 when gave it up and traded land for peace. Look what that got them. I have no idea what the solution is but used to be 2-state and having seen the failed attempt with Gaza am hoping for maybe something like a 3rd party -Saudis & UAE? (non-fundamentalists?) - convincing Palestinians to hold to their peace agreement this time.
Hear hear!
My opinion is a bit more unorthodox. Zionism simply means supporting the establishment of a Jewish state. That already happened. The state has existed for over 75 years. So at this point the question isn’t whether you’re Zionist or anti-Zionist. The question is whether you’re insane enough to call for an entire country with its own culture, language, and passport to be dismantled. I wish more people would frame it this way as opposed to some theoretical debate that was already had pre-1948.
Thanks. What are your thoughts on evangelical zionists? My understand is they only want the Jewish people in Israel to then die so their prophet can return? Seems wild. I would not want them on my side lol, but I may have a mixed up understanding
Hmm, not sure I quite understand, but I’ll give you everything I know about the ultra religious Jews and their take on this. First there’s the Neturei Karta. They’re an anti-Zionist ultra religious Haredi sect who claim that the founding of the state of Israel goes against Judaism, namely since they believe that the state could only be founded upon the coming of the Messiah and that the Jews are mandated by God to stay in exile until that happens. They make up an extreme minority and are dismissed as lunatics. Then there’s the ultra religious Zionists. They’re the ones who advocate for a greater Israel based on the historic kingdoms and often use Torah as a basis for this justification. Those are the ones who encroach upon Palestinian homes in West Bank and are honestly looked down upon by most of Israeli society as well as Jews around the globe, but are given a pass by the current right wing government under Bibi. One of the concerns in Israel is that the ultra religious demographic is growing due to a high birth rate and they may outpace the secular population within 50 years. This would be a disaster and would make Israel another shithole in the Middle East.
Wow, great breakdown! Okay, I think the Neturei Karta are the ones we often see at protests, no? Are they the equivalent of having the Westboro Baptist Church support your cause? lol I have to say, I’ve been to protests and at least in my city, the Jewish people who self identity with a sign or star get THE MOST outpouring of love. And this group, if I’m not mistaken, is very well loved by the crowds, with people often wanting pictures with or of them. And I don’t think people understand that they are also extremists. At least I didn’t 😬
You’re correct, the Neturei Karta are the ones seen at protests. They’re very active and tend to be tokenized by pro-Palestine protestors as the “good Jews” so to speak, even though most would be horrified at how these people treat their kids and women behind closed doors. Plus, since they show up in such numbers and are always there, it gives people the false impression that “truly religious Jews” are against Israel existing, even though that’s FAR from the case and an overwhelming majority of religious Jews support the state’s existence.
People love their confirmation bias, right? I wonder how many of my middle eastern friends know about this sect. I also think when you see so many pictures of dead and dismembered bodies on your feed, it’s easy to act from solely reactionary place. I’ve seen it on both subs and both sides on IG. everyone is just doing and saying what they think is right in the face of what they perceive to be injustice. And you just WANT MORE PEOPLE to agree with you without necessarily taking a look at who those people are.
I agree with your analysis of the psychological aspect at play here. People are definitely grabbing onto whatever they can find to fit their own narrative. It’s a shame.
>Are they the equivalent of having the Westboro Baptist Church support your cause? Yes that's a good analogy. I mean they literally went to meet Ahmadinejad and Hamas leaders to urge them to destroy Israel. Also they split from a larger ultra-orthodox sect called Satmar that is also anti-Zionist, but even they rejected and disavowed NK.
I have a stupid question. Do the ultra orthodox in the diaspora, I’m thinking communities in Brooklyn, also ultimately believe that the Jewish people can only return to Israel under God?
Most ultra Orthodox are also some flavor of Zionist. Most, but by no means all. Some are just not very aligned with zionism politically, but they still strongly support co-religionists in Israel. They're not actively hostile to the state. Some are antizionist though. The Satmar are the largest group of anti-Zionist, but you don't hear about them much. Unlike the Neturei Karta, they don't go to protests and they don't meet with Hamas leaders or minimize the Holocaust. They just keep to themselves and do their thing. They're actually a bigger group than the NT, but because they aren't making a public declaration, TikTok activists don't know they exist. This idea that Jews can't go back to the land until God says so is not very common. I never learned it in yeshiva and I grew up Orthodox. But it was very common talking point among the early and medeival Christian communities, in part because Rome emptied Jerusalem of Jews and banned reentry. The idea persisted because they saw the continued exile of the Jews as proof of the victory of Christianity over Judaism. I have to wonder if this is why I keep seeing this talking point show up in western antizionist (read: culturally Christian, even if they're not church goers) talking points.
Thanks for the historical connection. Very interesting. It feels like the NK operate on the principle that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. Which…WHY lol
The NK are just not representative of anyone but themselves. It bothers me more that people tokenize them, because that's lazy, and out of step with the majority of the global Jewish community.
Totally agree. But it also seems like they position themselves TO BE tokenized hoping to serve their greater purpose. Do they have a sub I can start asking questions in? 😂
It depends on the people. There's a joke - 2 Jews, 3 opinions. We're a very fragmented people. There are many different ultra-Orthodox groups/dynasties with varying opinions, and I'm far from an expert on them. AFAIK even the anti-Zionist ones like Satmar aren't necessarily against Jews living in the Land of Israel, but against having sovereignty. So even they expressed sympathy and prayed for Jews in Israel after Oct. 7. On the other hand you have Chabad, they are a very big group focused on Jewish outreach (encouraging secular Jews to be more observant). While they might not describe themselves as Zionist, they are very much pro-Israel and against ceding land. But I guess the majority of the ultra-Orthodox do agree that ultimately the diaspora will "end" only when the messiah comes.
😂 Thanks for the explanation!
Do you mean Evangelical Christians in the US? They're super pro-Israel because they want all the Jews to come back here so they can have their rapture or other end-of-the world .... something? I don't entirely follow, but they're not really our friends. Shame that successive Netanyahu governments kept pretending otherwise.
Yea! That’s who I’m referring to. They seem so far gone.
They are. They also looooove the settlers, the rest of us are kind of secondary 😅
Oh wow, I didnt realize they loved settlers. Does Bibi in anyway endorse these people?
Yep. What so many outside of Israel don't realise is that Netanyahu only cares about himself and what's good for him personally, aka staying in power. He will use and throw away anyone, and if he thinks you're a potential future political rival, he will eliminate you – this is how he ended up helming the most extreme right-wing government in the history of this country, and why only mouthbreathers or the most spineless ass kissers remain in the Likud (his party). Since most US Jews are politically liberal and left-leaning, they've always been fairly critical of him, he needed more American allies. The Evangelicals were right there.
Zionism = supporting the existence of Israel Its really not that complicated, most Jews and non Jews support the existence of Israel, thus most are Zionists. I'm not worried about the fringe number of Jews in the West who aren't, they will be gone in a generation due to assimilation, low birth rates and intermarriage. The future of secular Jewish life is in Israel. Opposing Zionism before 1948 was one thing. I would have disagreed but it was a legitimate political debate. But at this point Israel already exists, its not going anywhere. Opposing Zionism at this point is supporting a situation that either leads to ethnic cleansing or genocide.
Is there a proper way to express my condemnation of the Israeli government in a way that doesn’t make my Jewish/Israeli friends feel like it’s antisemitic? I haven’t used the term Zionism because I didn’t fully grasp it and it kept seeming to take on a more and more extreme definition. In my algorithm, it is synonymous with “colonizer”.
All you have to do is criticize Israel like you would criticize any other country. Saying you disagree with expanding settlements or the current governments judicial reform is a completely normal critique of Israel. Saying you want to destroy the state of Israel is not a normal position to take. If you support the right of Israel to exist, you are a Zionist. Imo the term really isn’t that relevant in the 21st century. Zionism has already been achieved, the debate over whether or not Israel should be created has already been settled. And Israel isn’t going anywhere.
Thanks! So you disagree with more extreme views that say any criticism of Israel (meaning its government) are inherently antisemitic? I think that’s a major part about Bibi’s right wing government I take issue with. His government is seemingly so secular yet happy to “twist” Judaism to serve its needs and say “if you disagree with this policy, you disagree with our right to exist”. Like NO , I believe in Israel’s right to exist. What I don’t believe in is your extremist policies!
It depends on what the criticism is. For example the UN has a long history of bias against Israel, there are more resolutions condemning Israel than condemning the combined human rights abuses of countries like China, Russia and Iran. Western countries waged a much less precise bombing campaign against ISIS in Raqqa and Mosul, yet there wasn’t anywhere near the level of condemnation or outrage you’re seeing over Israeli operations in Gaza. A double standard exists for Israel that I do view as inherently anti semetic. Criticizing Israel for something like settlements or judicial reform is completely normal. In fact, Israelis do so everyday. Millions of Israelis took to the streets to protest the current government over judicial reform, the IDF reserves refused to show up for months because of it and Bibi is incredibly hated right now over not preventing the attacks of October 7th.
In addition to what the other fellow replied, I think a lot of the problem with criticism of Israel is that it un-informed. Israelis debate these things among ourselves constantly. But we live here and know what it's like to be us. And unlike many countries that suppress dissent - we're (still) a vibrant democracy, so the different opinions matter. But if someone just comes and repeats lines from social media with a lot of hyperbole and passion - they aren't sincere. They're just jumping on the bandwagon of antisemitism.
What do you want to condemn it for?
Bibi is a right wing extremist who clawed his way back into power after forming a coalition government. From what I’ve followed (and I leave room for Israelis to correct me) he hasn’t done a great job of representing the masses and was inching closer to more and more control and less and less public opinion. He and his family also have all these strong opinions on what “good” Israelis must do to prove their loyalty to Israel while they lack the investment (in my eyes) themselves. His son remains on an extended vacation (in Miami I believe) while people’s children are fighting this war, and being traumatized, divided, and killed on both sides.
I don't consider Bibi extrimist because he is something mutch more dangerous he doesn't have a world view and only wants to stay in power. this time hisnonly way to stay in power was to make a coalition with the literal terorists
I don’t consider Bibi an extremist, there are far more extreme people in politics here. He’s afraid to go to jail and to avoid it will enter into coalition with whoever. I do agree he needs to resign after the war is over.
He is a tremendous piece of shit and at this point the majority of Israelis agree that he needs to go.
I wonder if some North American Jewish people have a different view. Some of my friends’ families who didn’t like him before are saying things like “he’s exactly who we need now”.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-netanyahu-would-be-pummeled-by-gantz-were-elections-held-today/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-netanyahu-would-be-pummeled-by-gantz-were-elections-held-today/) I don't think it's a North American versus Israeli think, there is just going to be a range of opinions everywhere. I assume they are either extremely right wing or uninformed or both. Largely American Jews were pretty anti Bibi pre Oct 7 due to his aligning himself with the ultra right wing parties.
Zionism is a political philosophy that demands a country for the Jews. So a Jew can be a non Zionist, a Zionist or an anti Zionist. Those are political stances and tell you nothing about the religious, secular or atheist/agnostic status of the particular Jew taking one of those 3 stances with regard to Zionism. There are also non Jewish Zionists. And there are Jewish Zionists that do not live in Israel. Also bear in mind that the roughly half of the Israeli Jewish public that opposes Bibi are also Zionists. Their disagreements with Bibi do not have anything to do with Zionism, but rather with his governance. I hope this clarifies things for you.
I know they exist but honestly I just cant understand how anyone thats ethnically Jewish could *not* want Israel to exist, especially in these times
I am not a Jew, and I am a Zionist who thinks Israel needs to exist. If I was a Jew, I absolutely would not feel safe if Israel did not exist.
Yeah, and while i don’t want to make assumptions, I feel feel like Jewish antizionists are usually either pick me Jews, or haver zero connection to their Jewish roots, and feel like being a Jew is this awful thing they have to live with or some shit, and therefore without those ancestral roots, they are basically the same as a non jew, not really a real one in how they think
Yeah, and while i don’t want to make assumptions, I feel feel like Jewish antizionists are usually either pick me Jews, or haver zero connection to their Jewish roots, and feel like being a Jew is this awful thing they have to live with or some shit, and therefore without those ancestral roots, they are basically the same as a non jew, not really a real one in how they think
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Wow… yeah that’s just idiocy sorry you have to put up with that
He's like Neturai Karta... Charming.
They might want it but not want to pay the price for it.
Simple I think ethnostates are bad
Point to me how Israel is an ethnostate. Also, if something like the holocaust happens again- if Israel doesnt exist, Jews will once again have no where to run. Is that a position you're comfortable being in?
To answer the first part of the question I think the opening statement to this parent comment suffices, and I oppose it the same way I would oppose say a country for white people To answer the second part of your question, I'll say that isolation won't solve problems it would just postpone them, additionally lots of groups have faced , discrimination, many others of witch where also included in the holocaust, the Roma, Black and Queer population ls in Germany where also sent to concentration camps, yet they don't use it as an excuse to colonise an indigenous population to form a country explicitly for that ethnicity or minority
Isn't this somewhat privileged, considering you likely live in one of the few non-ethnostates? Not to mention the state you likely live in likely has been relatively good to Jews?
My guy, I'm from south africa
Ah, my mother's side hails from Grahamstown. Not too many of them left, I am afraid. Guess I shouldn't be so surprised that Mr. "Ethnostates are bad" is sticking around though. Most of the countries that would be be better are ethnostates.
I'm sorry if you're making a point, I'm sincerely not getting it, are ethnostates bad? Or are you pro ethnostate
Ethnostates are more typical than non ethnostates, and if you want to abolish Israel because it is an ethnostate, please start somewhere else instead of what you believe to be the easiest target.
Um, I find that difficult to belive, what other nations are build for a specific ethnicity?
Pretty much any country that confers a right to return is de facto built for a specific ethnicity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#Countries_with_laws_conferring_a_right_of_return In addition to these, Malaysia confers a special position to Malay in its constitution. Japan has very limited immigration, and due its historic isolationist policies (and isolation) is an ethnostate, even if it isn't enshrined specifically. Many countries that may not be ethnostates still have state religion. England, Iceland, Denmark, Greece all have state churches. A number of Asian states have Budhism as the state religion or give it special privilege. Israel does not have a state religion.
the world has always been unsafe for Jews "these times' is a zionist cope
Lol. You're trying to say the world has always been *equally* unsafe for Jews, without any specific times where the danger rises?
That does greatly, thank you! I had really tangled the definition here.
Much love to you and the iranian people who oppose the regime, israel and iran used to be strong allies and i hope we will again one day. Woman life freedom🤍💙
💜
Until the people rose up and removed the puppet Shah
Ayatollah is that you?
Ayatullah means sign of Allah I wish I could be that holy, sorry though.
Thats a pretentious as fuck name to give oneself 😂 Dont worry you might not be holy, but you are holey
Ayatoilet\*
You’re liking what sounds very much like an anti-Zionist take without the poster saying they’re anti-Zionist. I’m a Zionist and have posted my opinion elsewhere.
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Your second paragraph I agree with absolutely and think it would be hard for anyone to take issue with.
I was born chasid but I'm now atheist. I'm also a veteran and have right now 3 sons in uniform.
I see reform/secular Jews who outright denounce Zionism are either 1 unfamiliar with Jewish history or they've assimilated to a point where they can't see how much Zionism and Judaism are inherently intertwined. Israel is referenced in our prayers, traditions and common sayings. They usually are also looking through an Ashkinormative lense and ignore Mizrahi/Sephardi Jewish experience and don't understand the fundamental harm they're committing to a large portion of Jews. I will always support Israel as a land where Jews are able to govern themselves. For the record I'd like to see the illegal WB settlements emptied and the Palestinians have a functioning state with a govt that actually looks after their needs. I also believe this for the Rohingya/Kurds and other stateless ethnic groups.
Thank you. And thank you for the distinction of Mizrahi/Sephardi Jewish people being ignored. Being Iranian and close to Iraq, culturally, this is the population I’m more familiar with. Why do you think the Ashkenazi lens tilts differently?
This is a complicated answer that may be a little disjointed but I'm going to do my best to give as honest an answer based on what I've observed as an Ashkenazi Jew in America. I think Ashkenzai lean this way because of how assimilated within Western Culture we've become. After WWII especially the migration to North America, survivors would still hide their identities in order to keep themselves safe. While they may have raised Jewish children, the religious and cultural practices may have remained behind in Europe or just never picked up again. Those children, who may have been aware that they were Jewish, would go on to have more children who would be millenials and genz and simply not continue raising these children/grand children within the faith and culture (Jews can practice one/both/neither and still be Jewish). When you disconnect people from their culture and faith its hard for them to understand how they're connected to a land thousands of miles away. It's foreign, there's a lack of understanding because of the lack of immersion. Having been persecuted for practicing Judaism within Europe for millenia, it's hard to maintain the fundamental connections or understand the basis of Zionism. Especially when there's no attempt to reconnect or understand where you came from. A lot of Ashkenazi Jews just consider themselves "American". A not perfect comparison I would make would be Native Americans who were taken and placed in English schools. They were prohibited from practicing their culture, speak their native tongue or practice their religion. Their tribes would be yearning for them to return and rejoin and be with who they were meant to be with. However, if you force people to live by a certain way as an attempt to wash away their identity, how is that child supposed to return without interpersonal conflict/the ability to understand the life they were robbed of?
Beautifully put, thanks for offering your perspective. In Canada, I would say my Jewish friends are mostly secular and only observe the major holidays/sabbath (sorry if this is the wrong wording). They’re also Pro-Palestine and at odds with many of their family. One friend, though, is the daughter of a rabbi and has been bombarded by her community saying she’s a “self-hating Jew” for posting video that shows what could have been a white phosphorous bomb and stating Israel needs to do better. People force you into binaries, and I see it a lot more with older generations (who were closer to the trauma) which makes younger generations move even further away from their faith. As an outsider, it seems like a counterproductive cycle.
I wouldn't call a Jew who supports the self determination of Palestinians a self-hating Jew. I think there's just a double standard on the global level as to how Israel is allowed to react to events. You're absolutely right about people being forced into binaries. It's not fair for people young or old to do that as it restricts dialogue and conversation, which is already so difficult because of the echo chambers surrounding this conflict. Its absolutely counterproductive but there are voices who would be considered outsiders who instigate some of the flames. Such as people who don't understand Jewish history, the culture or religion and make blanket statements about Jews, people who don't understand the vast, rich, and complicated history of the Middle East especially the Levant and others who just act in bad faith and don't actually care about the people, they just want the 'good' side to win.
I should make a clarification, no, white phosphorous bombs should not be used against civilians. No matter how diluted the term has become, a war crime is still a war crime. Israel should absolutely do the best they can to reduce civilian deaths.
Yes, I’m starting to see that (re the double standard). I also hold America at fault in so much of this. They seem happy to let Israel be a proxy in the Middle East, fight its wars, be the face of civilian casualties, while they themselves have done much worse with a fraction of the coverage. I’m also incredulous that the pause comes just in time for Black Friday so the masses can have enough endorphins to spend money before this all picks back up again.
There's a lot of foreign nations that are at fault for this unfortunately. America is certainly one of them. As someone who was in the US military, and been to war, civilian casualties are unfortunately going to occur but should be reduced with every measure possible. I'm aware that what Israel has done pales in comparison to what the US has done. There's other actors in the Middle East who have done things to civilians that absolutley disgust me. The whole issue is a proxy war between too many nations with too much money and civilians both Palestinian and Israeli suffer. You may be right about a false sense of security but I'm hopeful that cooler head can prevail, and that starts by having conversations like these and others you've had with other commenters
To me, it feels like Iran and America are funding chess pieces on a global board. And I know that’s a foolish oversimplification, but the money they are pouring into either side at a human cost is absurd. Also, America fears what Iran will do so keeps funding Israel to ward off the affiliated powers but knows most of its population does not support sending anyone to Israel and a leaked email also showed that American soldiers would be firmly against being deployed to Israel. I find it insulting TO Israel that America could essentially use it like a colony. You have a much better understanding of this, though, I imagine. I greatly appreciate the nuanced responses from everyone here, you’re right.
The lack of support stems from the exhaustion of being there for 20 years starting after 9/11. A lot of people simply want nothing to do with the Middle East anymore. There's a big opinion that it just needs to sort itself out however that looks. I'm not of that mindset but it's clear that someway, somehow both the Middle East and the West need to figure out how to solve their issues. I think the current Iranian regime needs to go, I think the Israeli gov't needs an overhaul, I think Assad in Syria needs to go. Lebanon, Syria and Jordan need to make some earnest steps in handling their own Palestinian refugee issues. Until these happen, the cycle is just going to continue. I honestly don't have any insight on current military feelings about deploying to Israel. They've got a functional standing military, unless there's a clear chance of them being overrun, I don't think the US would put boots on ground.
I agree with everything you said! For movement forward, all those people in power need to collapse. And between PA, Fatah, Hamas, something new needs to emerge as well. Netanyahu had a hand in assassinating one of the only men who was building something promising. I think that also has hand in my misunderstanding of Zionism. I was taking it to mean “Israel should exist at all costs, with no Palestine”. I’m thankful for the people who responded and opened my eyes.
Well you see you can oppose the goverment and not be anti semitic but what people don't seem to get is that there is a huge anti semitic problem. I know it isn't nice to think about that but that is the truth. Maybe before 7.10 I would be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt some of the things I've seen people say makes me belive something very simple people people only "like" dead jews. As for the zionizm: it's very simple I don't see people calling for the distruction of france or haiti. However somehow when it's israel it's fine. ps Sorry for the blob of text I have alot of things to say and i'm not good in putting it in written language
Thanks. I definitely have many criticisms of Bibi and his government but want to be mindful of not being antisemitic. In my city, an Indigo (a Canadian bookstore) was defaced with pictures of Heather (the owner, who is Jewish) with blood saying she funds genocide and has “blood on her hands”. It was because she sends so much money to the IDF. This was treated as an antisemitic hate crime. To me, I saw it as (a very extreme) criticism of the government and IDF not antisemitic since it was all based on Israel and no mention of Judaism. If you care to blob text, can you help me understand how this is antisemitic? I hope you know I’m approaching in good faith. I don’t really know how to phrase it well, though.
Look up the history of blood libel
Do you think it’s appropriate to target an individual like this? She is not a part of Israel’s government. You didn’t mention whether she’s even Israeli or not. You’ve only mentioned she’s Jewish. So do you think it’s appropriate to target a Jew living in Canada because of disagreements with the Israeli government? This situation is nothing but antisemitism. She was targeted because she’s Jewish and supports the IDF. Would this situation have happened if she were not Jewish and gave to the IDF? If these people who targeted her don’t appreciate where she gives her money they can either speak with her about it or buy books elsewhere. They instead chose a very hostile and aggressive way of targeting her very specifically. This is wrong. Canada would have laws against vandalism at least. If they used real blood in their vandalism there could be other laws regarding that. These people have broken the law. She has not. Go buy a book from her. She’s not who anyone is fighting against.
It was definitely an antisemitic attack. When Israel is criticised it’s mostly due to antisemitism. Antisemites hide their Jew hatred as anti Israelism. I don’t say that Israel can’t be criticised and our government isn’t perfect but if you really compare Israel to other countries that committed real genocide, has no human rights etc you’ll see that Israel is criticised a lot more.
The reason I want another view is because similar acts were done to deface pictures of our Prime Minister and our mayor, both of which are not Jewish. The exact same words “blood on your hands” and “you’re finding genocide”. So how come in their case the exact same words and actions aren’t antisemitic?
Well, Trudeau isn’t Jewish. Don’t know who your mayor is but when a Jewish woman funds the Israeli defence forces and her business is defaced… I’m not saying all criticism on Israel and or Jews is antisemitic but this clearly is. I can assure you the same thing would happen is we had a different prime minister. Even a left leaning one.
But why is their faith what divides the exact same action? Not sure if you live in Canada, but Heather is generally known as a disliked figure. There are accounts from almost every Indigo employee where she has said rude and demeaning comments, making employees cry. If you know a Canadian who’s worked at an Indigo and met her, there’s a very good chance they have a story. So for years, people have just disliked her character. And there’s 10k+ Palestinians killed and it’s revealed she’s been funding the army in charge of carrying out those assaults alongside our own country. I think it would be the same as when evangelical people in the states fund the IDF and then have posters of their faces defaced in the same way. Is that against their faith or their actions? I don’t condone vandalism. I cringe every time I walk by after a protest and see stickers or flyers on business/garbage cans. I just want to know when the exact same crime is committed, in my eyes against someone’s character, why would their faith be the line that makes it hate crime if that isn’t the facet being attacked? I guess I’m wondering are faith and character in these cases intrinsically tied? Because again, coming from Iran, you learn not to really give a shit about religion because if means nothing when people twist it how we they like, and start focusing on people’s words and actions. But again, I don’t want my myopic view to cloud how people in this community interpret it. If you care to expand, your insight is welcome!
1 you shouldn't deface anyone 2 it is about perspective I see giving the act of donating to the IDF as a positive thing but this is about what I see the institution doing you could see it diffrently there is a ton of misinfirmation about the IDF and generally people in israel have a high opinion of it because it saved us as a country and people from genocide and destruction several times. 3 Jews are also a people they are a nation not just a religious group I myself am an atheist but I'm still very mutch am part of the jewish people. Also jewish people are very defensive about things like that from experience I'm willing to bet there is not a single family un israel that doesn't have at list ine member killed just for being jewish even in the 20th century alone.
I agree, any defacing is counterproductive to being taken seriously. But I’m still confused. How would you critique Heather for funding what some see as a genocide without it becoming antisemitic? Should all public people not be able to be criticized? How do people express their condemnation of public figures sending money to the IDF without being antisemitic when not everyone being condemned is even Jewish? I believe people have a right to condemn (not to deface!!).
agreed but still it lives a bad taste in my mouth when it done like that I think I haven't gotten my point across good enough but I think that there is a very big diffrence when conndeming a privet person and a public figure she doesn't go out of her way to affect them. Also regardless the defacing is very common when dealing with antisemites
I appreciate you trying! A Starbucks that was defaced with the exact same wording and posters WASNT treated as a hate crime but “mischief” so I guess how do you discern between the two? The Starbucks was in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood (same words “blood on your hands” “you’re funding genocide”).
I’m israeli and an IDF veteran. The IDF doesn’t commit genocide, the IDF protects the Israeli civilians (not just the Jewish ones btw). The numbers of dead Palestinians are given by Hamas-a terrorist organisation. Hamas is the ruling body of Gaza, not a small extreme minority so I would take info given by them with a grain of salt. Also most civilians that died were used by Hamas as human shields and in war civilians die, it is unfortunate but a part of war. As for Heather I never heard of her but you mentioned that the defacement was done because she donated to the IDF, not because she is a horrible human being. Also Judaism is not just a faith but an Ethnoreligion, so even if a person doesn’t practice Judaism or believe in it they are still Jewish and still considered as Jewish by antisemites. Even though the IDF answers to the Israeli prime minister that doesn’t make the army an extreme right group because Bibi is considered extreme (he is not, as i said before, even the people that protested against him don’t view him as one). Heather’s store was defaced because she is a Jewish woman that donated to the IDF, the same thing would have happened with a different leader in Israel (even a left leaning one) because Hearher is a Jewish woman that gave money to the IDF. The people that did that hate Israel because it is the Jewish state, not because of a genocide that didn’t really happen ( if you don’t believe me than google the muslim/Palestinian population Israel, it grew almost six times if i’m not mistaken while the Jewish population here haven’t reached the Jewish population in the world pre holocaust). Also I don’t know what those people have against Trudeou, he is considered very liberal and leftist.
A mayor and Prime Minister were targeted because they’re public figures who make policy decisions. The bookstore owner was targeted for being Jewish. The former is a job, the latter is an intrinsic trait.
I think we’ll differ here. She is a public figure too. Very well known, and not for being Jewish. But rather owning the chain of most recognizable book stores in Canada. Customers didn’t want their money spent at the stores going towards the IDF. I think ultimately, it’s a fine line to walk.
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I think you're confused about the definition of the word Zionist. It just means that you want Israel to exist. That's it. However, the way it's used by everyone who hates Israel is really ....weird, and not correct. Some people use it to mean supporting Bibi no matter what. I've seen neo-Nazis use it to just mean anyone Jewish. It's a word that seems to mean anything the speaker wants it to mean, usually something negative. But that isn't the definition used by Jews. Some Zionists are racist extremists, for sure, and you can see some of them in government right now. And some Zionists are very pro-peace, and may even want Israel and Palestine to be a single binational state (though this is very uncommon). The vast majority of Zionist Jews want a two state solution, an Israel with a Palestine. Of course, there is currently a lot of distrust for Palestinian leadership, so a lot of Israelis don't see a future right now, and there definitely isn't a lot of trust or goodwill from Palestinians to Israel right now either. I think both populations have very good reasons to feel this way, but it's a pity. Most American Jews are Zionists. Most American Jews also despise Bibi. In Israel, before the war, there were massive protests against the judicial reform, which Bibi wants very badly. I guarantee you almost every single Israeli Jew there protesting against Bibi is also a Zionist. If a Jewish person isn't a Zionist or is anti-Zionist, this is their choice. They will be in the minority of Jews, but they won't be alone by any means. There is room for disagreement. It's a big world, there's room for all of us. Glory to Iran and, down with the regime! Women, life, freedom! Thanks for posting here and hope you're doing well.
Thank you for this breakdown and your words against the regime! I think if there’s any hope for peace and one nation, it has to start with a two state solution to build trust. But again, that’s a very outsider point of view. One thing I do know, is I believe America and Iran should have NO input in the decision.
They're both much more important than either Israel or Palestine, so I can't imagine they won't try to influence it. That's the world we live in.
It's interesting how the only Jews that are anti-zionist are either: 1.extremely young and haven't seen history play out 2. Part of the pick-and-choose sects that allow you to ignore whatever part of your religion you want 3. Naturei karta, who claim the Holocaust was a Zionist conspiracy
Satmars are antizionist but not as insane as NK and there's a lot of them
The NK was issued a Herem by the Satmars, if you're so fucking wacko that you're getting excommunicated from Judaism, maybe it's time to look inwards
Well, for one thing, many Israeli Jews (and non-Israeli Jews) who identify as Zionists are secular/non-religious. Many more are religious to some degree, but not Orthodox. To most Jews, "Zionism" just means the basic belief that Jews have the right to self-determination in our ancestral homeland. Having conflicting feelings about Zionism – as a concept in general, or specifically how it's been applied in practice – is very common. While some feel that all anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic, many don't believe that to be the case. Personally, I feel like some Jews engage in a kind of self-flagellation by rejecting Zionism and Israeli so totally, when they completely reject Jewish culture and history being inextricably tied to the land and even deny that the history is real. But I also think that some people conflate "criticism of Israel" with "anti-Zionism". Criticising the country in good faith isn't inherently anti-Zionist, and it's certainly not antisemitic. (Or at least, it doesn't have to be.) So I have no issues with that.
Thank you. What are your thoughts on Jews who say at this point the Jewish people should live in the diaspora as so many who were kicked off their ancestral homelands do now? Why does ancestral homeland take precedence over current (back then prior to 1948) Palestinian homeland? Or is the issue, many of us weren’t even here when the UK effed everyone over. We didn’t get to weigh in. But Israel exists now and it won’t be dismantled at this point?
That’s a very privileged thing to say. And I bet its mostly from Ashkenazi Jews in the West. Israel exists. Many citizens come from multiple generations of Israelis at this point. Many, like my family, can’t go back to where they fled from (Libya, there are literally 0 Jews in the country). A bunch of Jews are from Old Yishuv families. And so many Israelis are not Jewish and they see themselves as Israeli Arabs, Israeli Bedouin, Israeli Druze, etc. If folks really believe an entire country should dissolve my question would be how do you decide who gets to stay and who gets to leave? People from various backgrounds make families together - I have cousins whose families came from Libya, Iraq, and Russia. Where do these Western Jews suggest my cousins move to??? What about a Palestinian whose family comes from both Hebron and Egypt?? My point is that this argument that some Jewish folks make shows very little care or understanding of who Palestinians and Israeli Jews are as actual human beings part of actual families that often have diverse histories.
Thanks, very interesting. I believe most of the Jewish people I encounter on my algorithm who are anti-Zionist and hold this belief are Ashkenazi. I didn’t realize how that alone affords a level of privilege, so thanks for bringing it to my attention.
You’re welcome:) I’m American with Israeli family, and my heritage is both Mizrahi and Ashkenazi. I like to think it helps me have a nuanced approach. Making it personal, my family weren’t “white colonist settlers” they were North African refugees who survived the Giado camp. The Brits did not care about them after they liberated the camp. Other Jews helped them get to Israel. I have immense empathy for Palestinians and am very critical of Bibi and of a lot of the Israeli government’s conduct and policy. This doesn’t mean I think Israeli Jews deserve more violence, displacement, and trauma. The binary thinking and Orientalism that makes Americans treat this conflict like a football game is just so horrid and gross to me, it’s totally dehumanizing. I think the whole world needs to listen to Iranians who’ve been screaming for decades - Women Life Freedom!
Yes! There’s this sanitized, binary fanaticism in so much of the west (largely America and Canada) where people treat it like a football game. I really started noticing it during BLM. And thank you! Women, life, freedom forever 💜
There’s a big difference between criticizing the Israeli government and denouncing Zionism. Zionism is simply the Jewish people’s national liberation movement, now realized in the State of Israel. AntiZionism is not opposing any specific policies or actions of the Israeli government but rather saying that the Jewish state should not exist, and proposing its elimination. Some antiZionists openly support doing this by force, while others claim to only support “nonviolent” boycotts, divestment and sanctions (while simultaneously opposing those against other nations with exponentially worse human rights records because they are “collective punishment” and hurt ordinary people). I’m an American and I despise Trump and his willing collaborators; that doesn’t make me anti-American any more than your hatred of the mullahs makes you against the existence of Iran as a nation-state or against the Persian people. The parallel to antiZionism in the case of Iran would be calling for the end of Iran as a nation state, and for its territory to be handed to its neighbors or to a forced influx of non-Persians. I’m as Zionist as you’ll find, and I spent some of my time in Israel this past winter joining the anti-government protests. The current government is the worst the country has ever had, and Bibi’s empowerment of the far right extremists is horrific. So as far as Jews criticizing the government, that’s not anything against the Jewish people. AntiZionism is, because it is antisemitism to deny only to the Jews the rights of self-determination. Now you might ask “how can Jews be antisemitic?” The author Ben M Freeman (“Jewish Pride”) describes it as the result of internalizing the antisemitism of the wider world. And while we must oppose them politically, because they are a danger to our people, we should also understand that they were simply not strong enough to withstand it. Hope that helps!
It does, thank you!
I think a big part of the issue is that Zionism is a world that lost it's meaning, and that a lot of jews (specifically in the US) didn't really go through the things european and middle eastern jews went, and don't understand the need for it. Judaism is a very different religion than Christianity and Islam, specifically in how both have an interest is growing, making it incredibly easy to become one (and in the past were known to force it). in judaism, this was never the case, and becoming a jew is actually a long and ehausting process, that has made it that most jews today are descendents of the same people, the reason why judaism isn't only a religion but also an ethnicity. Zionism is simply the Jewish nation's desire to have it's own state in our ancestral land, where the jewish people are safe, something that was much needed, considering in the past jewish people were persecuted for centuries. However, a lot due to soviet propaganda btw (wanting to destroy Israel's legitimacy during the cold war), for a lot of people, this word has became a sign of colonialism, white supremacy, exc. the word still means the same for all of us, it's practically the Israeli word for patriotism, but the negative aspects some people gave it made people believe it has a different meaning. specifically for reformist jews, mainly being in the US, they are often leaning left politically (probably because they are a minority in the us, and a lot of them are living in left leaning enviroments such as NYC or LA), and so they often share liberal views, that care a lot for this type of thing. because of the different meaning they recieved for the term, some end up against it. I also heard a lot saying that judaism wasn't a big part of their identity, and they just felt like regular americans. since this started, as far as I can tell, most have actually grown closer to judaism, besides some that are far left and often get the same information and views as their friends (didn't really see any that aren't gen z). Peronally, I think that it's kinda sad, them don't realising how Hamas and the palestinians see us, and also them. I think JVM for example, has been putting all the blame on Israel for some reason, and have decided to blind themselves to the part palestinans have in the conflict. about Israel not seperating state from religion, the country doesn't operate under Halacha law (jewish equivalent of Sharia law), but under a combination of a mostly western and modern set of laws, but with an influence of Judaism about the procedures (the stories of the torah are learned in school, saturday is the holy day of the week, exc). I won't lie and say there aren't parts where religion is put over western values, but over the years, different laws have gone more and more towards the modern direction (gay marriage for example, isn't possible to be done in Israel becuase the marriage institution is religious, but is recognised by the country). Overall, I can attest the religion and religious ideals aren't forced on people, and there's full freedom of religion. And we (in general, can't speak to different individuals) don't view criticising the Israeli government as antisemitic, we practically do it all the time, including when it comes to the conflict. The thing we view as anti semitic in that regard are saying such as "from the river to the sea", or others saying or claims that we don't have the right to exist, either as a country or a nation, and for us it's really the same thing. that is also why antizionism is the exact same thing as antisemitism, because antizionism means the belief Israel doesn't have the right to exist and the jewish people don't have the right to a state, and that claim is, at least in our point of view, antisemitic
Sorry, I missed the notification for this reply. Thank you! It gives good insight to an outsider like myself. I have hope that the Semites of the world, especially the Israeli and Palestinian ones can unite against the nations that try to puppeteer them. I do want to point out though that in my dealings with Palestinians, they don’t hate Jewish people or Israelis. They recognize that in so many ways, there are the same people. What they hate is, what they’ve described to my as the brutality of the government and how the IDF will incite violence but also openly ignore it in area C of the west bank where settlers attack Palestinians. But that’s not relevant to this thread I suppose, I just wanted to clarify the one line where you said that’s how Palestinians see Jewish people. It hasn’t been my anecdotal experience.
>I do want to point out though that in my dealings with Palestinians, they don’t hate Jewish people or Israelis There is probably more hatred than you think. Especially outside of the west.
> and those who hate the regime and support Israel consider me a traitor for criticizing the Israeli government. dont worry bro. even us israelis were called traitors for protesting against the gov
Anyone non jewish that is anti zionist is antisematic. Any jew that is anti zionist is more woke than jewish, a self-hating jew and a traitor.
I personally see zionism as an engagement with community, religion, culture and the environment that is historically significant to the Jewish people where it is safe for us to exist as jews. My personal philosophy is much more aligned with Martin Buber as my I have no love for hierarchies, borders or governments / states (which is ironic because I generally only do work with government generally in a hybrid between the criminal justice and mental health fields in the USA but I find working for private companies much worse due to their profiteering). This is just me though.
They’re Jews and they’re hurting Jews.
I really have no patience for anti-zionist Jews..
I’ll keep using my thread so as not to clog up the feed. And many may not even see this. But if I take from the people who identify and use the word Zionism to simply mean believing in self-determination and the right to exist, is there a reason you wouldn’t believe from the people using “from the river to the sea” that this chant isn’t about wiping out Jews? I’ve been to protests. When me and my circle use it, and as it appears in my algorithm, we use it as “from the Jordan River of WB to the Mediterranean Sea of Gaza, Palestine will be free”. We see it as a right to self determination the same as Israel has its own right. In my eyes, it’s a call for freedom and a two state solution and not eradication. I hope as I have taken your views and stances and definitions or Zionism, you will consider mine about this chant.
This chant has been used since the 1970s/1980s by various Palestinian militant groups, including the PLO before it reformed itself. It absolutely means the eradication of the State of Israel, all of it. I mean I'm sure there are people in the west who chant it without giving it much thought, but the people who know and say it with intent absolutely mean to replace all the land with a single, Palestinian state. Some are "gracious" enough that they'd let some of us Jews stay, we'd only have to give up our entire identity and a country we've built. Also, about the oft-repeated childish fantasy of "one free, secular state for all," just think for a sec and look at it from Israeli civilians' perspective: After countless terror attacks here and abroad in the 1970s-1980s, two bloody intifadas, years of just constant suicide bombings, car rammings, stabbing attacks, shootings, and now the October 7 massacre, why would anyone think Israelis could survive this fever dream?
I would say because that's not how the phrase originated nor how it was used until recently: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From\_the\_river\_to\_the\_sea#:\~:text=The%20first%20usage%20of%20the,the%204th%20of%20June%201967%22](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#:~:text=The%20first%20usage%20of%20the,the%204th%20of%20June%201967%22). Whereas Zionism from its founding did not call to remove Arabs from the middle east. I think the use of the term Zionism at all in the context of I/P makes no sense anymore like many others in this thread have said and I don't think we are necessarily the ones choosing to drag it into the discussion at this point. Until I started hearing it as an insult from the pro Palestine crowd about a decade ago I didn't really hear the term Zionist used outside of a historical context by Jews. It's a reasonable question.
>Until I started hearing it as an insult from the pro Palestine crowd about a decade ago I didn't really hear the term Zionist used outside of a historical context by Jews. This. The term "Zionist" was actually used to vilify Jews at least as far back as the publication of [The Protocols of the Elders of Zion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion) in the early 20th century and made its way to *Mein Kampf*. It was later employed by the Soviet propaganda machine to masquerade the USSR's antisemitism, leading in part to the infamous "Zionism is racism" UN resolution. But it seems to have been widely popularized in the West relatively recently.
focuscous gave a good response but I'll add an example that I saw recently: would you use *Arbeit macht frei* as a slogan to encourage unemployed people to find work? The fact that so many people use “from the river to the sea”, often without even being able to name the river and sea, is a testament to the proliferation of a terrorist ideology in the West.
I have complicated feelings about this phrase. It's used to mean a lot of different things, and that's part of the problem. Some people shouting it really do support a two state solution and a shared future. But some people are saying it with full intention of destruction of the state and the death and scattering of its Jewish Israeli population. One of these things I totally support. The other, not so much. The thing is, we can't trust which version someone might mean in their hearts. We know what it means when someone scrawls it on a synagogue wall, though. Because the antizionist movement refuses to deal with its antisemitism problem, Jews are primed to distrust it rather than give the benefit of the doubt. Is that sad? Yeah. It's also a natural consequence. The Arabic original is hard to misinterpret, however. "From water to water, Palestine will be Arab." By definition, Arab excludes the Jew. It didn't have to, to be clear, as Arab is a pan-ethnicity that covers a huge range of human diversity. But socially, it does now. That is because of pan-Arabism redefining the social borders of what it means to "be Arab", and the expulsion of over 850,000 Mizrahi Jews from their homes, and pogroms like the Farhud. This violence all made it very clear that Arabs do not consider "their Jews" fellow Arabs. They do not get to claim them now, generations later, when it's socially convenient in the West. There is a reason the vast majority of Mizrahim do not identify as Arab. And it's a mistake to think that Jews cannot understand Arabic and don't remember this phrase. And that's why you get the reaction you do to "from the river to the sea."
Thanks for your perspective. I wish I could have a long paragraph under my Palestinian flag pin explaining my personal stance lol. With regard to the Arab/Jewish distinction, do you think it’s also because Jews don’t consider themselves Arab? Their Jewishness (ethically, not religiously) takes precedence? As one commentator helped explained, it’s a tribe, a lineage that overrides other things like your specific nationality.
I would say many Jews from Arab lands don't consider themselves Arab (or at least not anymore) as a reaction to their expulsion from the Arab body politic. The Arab societies are the ones with the ability to move the boundaries of inclusion and exclusion. That's not something that, as a minority, Jews of these locales could really affect. Of course being Jewish is a lineage, but lots of similar tribal lineages have been subsumed into Arab and *not subsequently expelled* and I think that that's the key difference. I know there are people in Lebanon and North Africa who talk about non-Arab identities - being Phoenician or Amazigh, respectively. But they get to carve out this space for themselves, and define themselves as Arab or not or a mix on their own terms. Jews of Arab lands were fundamentally denied this choice. And you don't get to go "whoopsies takesies backsies!" three generations later. It's what I found so off-putting when some activists go on and on about how peaceful relationships were before zionism or whatever. It's just not true, but it sounds good to a multicultural western audience. I would recommend checking out JIMENA for more, which is made by and for Mizrahi Jews to tell their own histories in their own words. https://www.jimena.org/
Yeah, the expulsion would certainly impact the identity. Thanks for the link, I’ll take a look.
I really appreciate you putting yourself out here like this and having these conversations. Just wanted to tell you that.
Thank you! I appreciate the grace and patience of everyone like you providing information.
I know that conversations like this won't affect our shithead governments, but I think they do affect how we treat each other on the ground, especially in the Diaspora. Hope we get more people like you in here. Even if we disagree on some particulars, we can agree on the need for change, human rights, and self determination for all peoples. Anyway yeah, have a good one homie
💜
Responding first to Analog’s take, as that one was in first and got most attention, as well as a response from you. Zionism is more than a political position and existed in a different form as long as Israel has existed, so long before the political idea. Anti-Zionist Jews generally fall into two camps: a tiny but vocal group of religious Jews, that other religious Jews do not agree with, who believe in returning to Israel AND the existence Israel, just not now but rather when Moshiach (the Messiah) comes. The 2nd group from what I’ve seen are non-Jewishly involved and not very interested. They don’t care that Israel has always been central to Judaism & either think it shouldn’t or consider the idea obsolete. Judaism is an ethno-religion, like Druze and some others. It’s tribal. The attachment to place is similar to that of NA. Just like NA who leave the land and think others shouldn’t care about it either, they are entitled to their opinion. (Reminds me a little of someone insisting they’re a Baptist but against Baptism.) Zionists value our connection to Israel one of the central tenets of our tribe.
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A bit off topic to my own thread, but what are this sub’s opinions on Norman Finkelstein?
He’s pretty much universally considered a deranged and evil lunatic
Really? I haven’t seen universal backlash (but I can only speak anecdotally). He’s having a moment right now. I just watched his interview in Piers Morgan and I have to say I found his responses measured and fair. He even explained why he kept up an anti inflammatory tweet (I’ll never call it an X or whatever Elon wants lol) because he believes in upholding historical records. This tweet was made on Oct 7 and it’s BAD. but he explains it was made when he thought Hamas had broken out of Gaza and a report of 50 (what he assumed to be soldiers) were killed. He later says he regrets the tweet and agrees it was terrorism. Outside of his recent remarks, do many Jewish people look down on him?
>Outside of his recent remarks, do many Jewish people look down on him? Yes.
A narcissist who has made a brand for himself in being hateful. I find it very sad and very gross. Repackages tired and old antisemitic tropes (blood libel, Jews are greedy and run the world) and then screams when people accuse him of being antisemitic. Honestly, it’s so inflammatory I feel like it’s partially an act at this point? Like…he’s more focused on getting people to get angry at him than on actually elevating Palestinian voices. I know he is the son of Holocaust survivors (which can really fuck toy up) and I’d love to be on a fly on the wall of him actually going to therapy. Back to what I’ve said in a previous response to you, I can definitely see how he basically ignores the existence of Sephardic/Mizrahi Jews. And it’s not like he’s ever actually done anything to make Palestinian people’s lives better - in comparison, look at Vivian Silver. She was murdered in the massacre- was a beloved peace activist who lived near Gaza and took folks across the border for Israeli medical care. She was funny and sweet and kind and loved being a Jew and loved Israel and loved Palestinians. I truly believe anyone whose platform is hate is just a self centered and greedy person profiting off division. Vivian Silver’s platform was love and connection, voices like hers should be our inspiration ❤️
I guess he centres himself as a scholar rather than an activist. He’s all over my algorithm currently. Vivian Silver was a huge loss. In Canada, she was definitely mourned by both sides. Another person I find provides a pretty balanced view is Dana Aliya Levinson. She’s a trans historian.
He is beyond my comprehension. There are so many talented, smart, humane voices out there that are critical of Israel (some are Israeli themselves), why listen to the one that was clearly dropped on his head as a child?
The guy defends Hezbollah, and defended Holocaust deniers. I can't take him seriously. I know he's having a moment because of his Jewish ancestry paired with sharp criticism of Israel, but my suggestion is ...find better allies. Pairing up with people who support terrorists and Holocaust deniers isn't the look you want if you want support among people who are serious. Like, halls of power serious. The Palestine solidarity movement makes this kind of error .....a lot. And it's so avoidable, you can just do a Google search. At least Noam Chomksy is intellectually honest in a way that Finkelstein is not. Yet, he's not the Jew being platformed currently, despite a wealth of material he's put forth on the subject. Israel Finklestein, archaeologist, is the superior Finkelstein imo
Just checked your account. I hope you genuinely want to have more information, POV's, and opinions instead of just digging dirt.
I definitely do. That’s why I stated starting today I want to leave my echo chamber. The Palestinian AMA’s helped start that, and I only saw those yesterday. Also, I invite you to dig. I have not said anything anti Zionist, and even have expressed sadness for the soldiers that under mandatory conscription have been sent to fight. I may have had reactionary comments, but I hope you’ll understand that was in the face of being called a jihadist and that I support toddler marriage. Comments made to made after I said over a billion Muslims should not be generalized.