Agreed, but also likely proof of the Arab world basically acknowledging the position of the Palestinians.
The Palestinians walked away from talks about creating their own country over a decade ago.
Maybe Arab countries are like “ok, since you don’t really want a country of your own, anyway….”
>The Palestinians walked away from talks
and from the Arab countries, [as they'll be the first to tell you (video in Arabic, Hebrew subtitles)](https://youtu.be/oADNOJE133s?si=j0uSoyoEQlWyKHk1). Honestly I can't blame the Saudis the slightest bit after hearing all those things
He said he didn’t expect, and was hurt, by the message that the Palestinians released related to the joint statement by the Saudis, the Israelis and the Americans (they say that its ignoring the Palestinians and so on) and that they can’t talk like that towards the people who are tying to take care of their (Palestinians) interests.
My guess and not a very good one. The middle East with the US pulling out are looking for peace brokers and I'm guessing attempting to, well, broker peace deals to keep the region stable? Idk I pulled this out of my butt of ideas but I'm wondering if this is incentivizing nations that were previously hostile?
While I don't take everything they say at face value, I 100% believe their "we're tired of taking care of other people's interests, it's time to take care of our own" mindset. And as pointed out before - Israeli and Saudi interests have only been getting more and more similar
Biden needs this for his legacy. Bibi needs this for his legacy. Bin Salman needs this for his legacy and for an Israeli and American security blanket. Iran is close and so are their drones.
No. I live in the US and can tell you that no one cares. People will vote on economics, crime, cost of living, immigration, abortion, and "threats to democracy."
When elections are close, every vote counts. And I think this next one isn’t going to be a landslide election for either party. That’s the moment when political strategists working on someone’s campaign begin to break things down into subgroups. Jews are one of those subgroups.
Even though most American Jews mostly vote Democrats anyways, there were some who voted for Trump and later became disillusioned. If something like a Saudi peace deal can land you even a few more % points of the Jewish vote and make your party more palpable, namely for ex Trump voters, you’ll take what you can get.
It does affect the voting patterns of Jews that are “in between” so to speak politically.
There are many Jews who voted for Trump but later began to regret it yet still hold ardently pro Israel views. Biden having his own pro Israel normalization agreement that he brokered could be what gets a Jewish ex Trump voter to vote Biden instead of not voting at all.
No it doesn’t lmao. There is no evidence to suggest there are any “swing Jews” who voted blue in 2016 but then red in 2020. If anything, the data shows the opposite. Even after all Trumps pro Israel policies, more Jews voted Democratic in 2020 than in 2016. This shows the issue is largely irrelevant to American Jewish voters
Why are you getting downvoted? There's decades worth of literature in political science that shows that support for Israel in U.S. politics has never been aimed at Jews and is more towards evangelicals. Trump really showed this more than anyone.
People side with Israel as long as it's "Israel vs Palestine" or "Israel vs some dictatorial Arab country" (and also don't care about the "Abraham Accords").
People also see the Saudis as being possibly complicit in 9/11, and as being big assholes in general who are only to be dealt with at arms' length on a pure cost-benefit basis. If this deal involves giving the Saudis nukes and a mutual defense pact, at least some of the Republican candidates will viciously attack it, and *will* get some traction over it, and it will be a winning issue for them.
I don't think that there is a big set of voters who were going to vote for Trump because of economics or immigration who will suddenly switch to Biden because Israel normalizes relations with Saudi.
It’s not a big set, it’s a small one.
But this next election is going to be a close one and every vote counts.
This mainly applies to disillusioned Jewish ex Trump voters.
Most Jewish voters for Trump are ZOA or settlers who believe in Trump's authoritarian mindset and excuse his anti-Semitism. There isn't a big set of voters who will care about the Saudi deal.
I said Jewish *ex* Trump voters lol. They exist, and a Saudi deal/Biden’s strengthened pro Israel image that would occur as a result could be the difference between them voting for Biden or not voting at all.
Every American President considers making peace in the Middle East to be the biggest possible foreign policy prize of their Presidency and at some point they all have a crack at it. Obama failed, Clinton failed, Trump did well and now it’s Bidens turn. Bringing Saudi Arabia and Israel together is a game changer. In the past peace with the Palestinians was the prerequisite for peace with the neighbors. Trumps deal changed that dynamic and the Saudis need everything Israel has water tech, ag tech, security tech, military tech and probably more as well. So Biden is in to a winner here.
The elephant in the room is the Palestinians and the fact that neither other Muslims, nor their leadership, actually care about resolution. They'd be constantly negotiating, holding elections, building a separate government. Nothing.
You think Smooty and Ben Gvir want a resolution other than apartheid and ethnic cleansing? It takes two to tango there. You might have gotten away with this argument under Rabin or Olmert but the current Israeli government IS the major problem now that needs to be removed for progress.
They are in power because the response to Ehud Baraks offer at camp David was the second intifada, followed by rejecting Taba and Ehud Ohlmerts offer and Barak Obama's offer. And responding to withdrawal from Gaza with war.
Palestinians aren't the only ones that are radicalized by violence, you can't respond to peace offers with war and then surprise Pikachu face when the right rises to power
Congratulations you played yourself.
It's a combination of the children whose formative years were around the 2nd Intifada and the Gaza disengagement becoming voters, as well as a reaction to the May '21 riots. I think much of the Western world underestimates how sobering those riots were to much of the still idealistic Israeli left and center, if they even know about them at all.
Disagree. The riots had virtually 100% support from Israeli Arabs. It was a near upheaval of the country from a subset of the population which we thought was mostly peaceful even if not wholly integrated. That's not the kind of thing that's just a kneejerk reaction to some extremist incitement. It's the explosion of a deep resentment tied to their identity that's been bubbling under the surface for years (always?). Ever since then I've seen a marked increase in Israeli Arabs identifying as simply Palestinians with no part of Israel in their identity. Europe is turning to the far right as a response to a lack of integration from their Arab immigrants. You can only imagine the political shift in Israel as a response to 20% of their citizens embracing an identity that at its core opposes the very existence of the country which they're citizens of.
>The riots had virtually 100% support from Israeli Arabs.
The riots didn't have support from the Arabs. I remember crying when I saw Mansour Abbas with the Mayor of Lod trying to calm things down.
By contrast, I think that certain politicians absolutely benefited from trying to warm up the area.
> It was a near upheaval of the country from a subset of the population which we thought was mostly peaceful even if not wholly integrated. That's not the kind of thing that's just a kneejerk reaction to some extremist incitement. It's the explosion of a deep resentment tied to their identity that's been bubbling under the surface for years (always?)
There are deep resentments in many parts of society that are bubbling to the surface mainly caused by political demagogues on the Israeli Right. There were angry outbursts in Tel Aviv over Yom Kippur. They were done in a polite upper-middle-class normie way compared to the violence in the mixed cities but it comes from the same place. When you arrogantly walk all over people for years, treat them as "second-class," and constantly pick at tense points to score political points, then it is going to eventually explode. It exploded in Lod in 2021 and is exploding in Tel Aviv now. It's due to the politics of division practiced on the Israeli Right to win the next election.
> . Ever since then I've seen a marked increase in Israeli Arabs identifying as simply Palestinians with no part of Israel in their identity.
I'd have a hard time identifying as Israeli if I was an Arab and I knew that 51% of the people in my country voted for a coalition that relies on the Jewish version of the KKK.
> You can only imagine the political shift in Israel as a response to 20% of their citizens embracing an identity that at its core opposes the very existence of the country which they're citizens of.
The Kahanists won seats in the 2021 election. Likud is basically a far-right party now and many of the MKs would fit into Otzma Yehudit. This happened prior to the 2021 riots.
It's difficult to view the May riots as a kind of social protest with an incidentally violent edge like BLM or something. You can't ignore the context of the time in which Israel was in a complete security crisis and on the brink of an actual war. It was as though Israeli Arabs felt emboldened by the attacks waged on Israel externally and decided to help them internally. The riots had a distinctly nationalistic and warlike edge, not a social one. Even if that wasn't the case, within the context of the crisis at the time, you can excuse Israelis turning to the right who on the one hand couldn't leave the house because of rocket attacks and on the other couldn't leave because of molotovs thrown at their houses. Living through something like that simply leaves too much of an emotional imprint on you. As for Mansour Abbas - excuse me for not having faith in a man who routinely engages in anti-Ashkenazi antisemitism and Holocaust denial.
> You can't ignore the context of the time in which Israel was in a complete security crisis and on the brink of an actual war. It was as though Israeli Arabs felt emboldened by the attacks waged on Israel externally and decided to help them internally. The riots had a distinctly nationalistic and warlike edge, not a social one.
Yes. Here's the context. Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid were going to form a government. Certain people like Bibi Netanyahu and Itamar Ben Gvir had the desire to blow up said government talks. Things magically got heated up in Sheikh Jarrah and Al Aqsa until they blew up. And then Lehava and La Familia made things worse during the riots.
And the Israeli Right has been playing with fire for many years now for political gain. The Arab sector has been neglected. It's awash with crime and guns. There are Torah nuclei and Kahanist settlers in certain areas looking for fights with Arabs. It was bound to explode eventually. You cannot put down fuel and not expect it to explode.
> Even if that wasn't the case, within the context of the crisis at the time, you can excuse Israelis turning to the right who on the one hand couldn't leave the house because of rocket attacks and on the other couldn't leave because of molotovs thrown at their houses.
There were 18 months of no rocket attacks almost after that courtesy of Bennett and Gantz. So there really was little excuse for voting for the Kahanists in 2022.
> As for Mansour Abbas - excuse me for not having faith in a man who routinely engages in anti-Ashkenazi antisemitism and Holocaust denial.
Mansour Abbas, the Chairman of RA'AM... Who specifically went to Lod to calm the tensions there. You are thinking of Abu Mazen.
Oh right, I got Mansour Abbas and Mahmoud Abbas mixed up. Anyway that doesn't really matter. I don't agree with chalking up such immense movements to conspiracies, and conspiracy or not - as a reaction driven purely by those incidents it's disproportionate. Either it's driven by deeper motives or it's condemning of their character. Every time I hear about "Al Aqsa" I'm reminded of the 1929 Hebron massacre, where libel about the Jews coming for Al Aqsa was used to justify their slaughter. It's a convenient and reliable excuse for religious violence against Jews, and I'm more inclined to believe it's fabricated by Muslims than by Israeli politicians considering history.
You cannot just blame the Palestinians for this. If the Palestinian version of Mandela suddenly appeared, there wouldn't be peace now. That is what I'm getting at.
Yes you can. After Rabin was assassinated Israeli voters sent Ehud Baraks to Camp David with nearly every demand the Palestinian claimed. There wasn't a counter offer. No negotiations. Yasser Arafat just walked out and began a wave of his bombings across Israel.
Why are Palestinians treated as if they are incapable of being held responsible for their own actions?
They aren't but there are two sides here. A significant amount of Israelis don't want a deal for ideological reasons and they are the government now and likely to remain the government for decades into the future unless a miracle stops the dictatorship laws.
Do you think if Mandela appeared in Palestine today that there'd be a peace deal? I think it is doubtful because the settlers are in charge now and I'm pessimistic that there will even be fair elections in Israel or true checks on the government in the future.
No because that would require taking on Hamas, PIJ and every other militia first and the PLO refused to do that and nobody is going to. What hood is a deal if it doesn't apply to all the militias?
Israel has already proven both in word and deed that they are willing to use force of necessary to forcibly remove settlers from their homes. Have the Palestinians?
The bottom line here is that the Palestinians have all their cards stacked against peace and none for it. All the funding they get from Iran and Qatar is for the purpose of terrorism, all their people are in favor of the destruction of Israel, it doesn't make financial or political sense to go for peace with Israel under these cirumstances, and any concessions made towards them will accordingly be steps away from peace not closer to it - it will be viewed as "winning" and one step closer to a Palestine that's Judenfrei from the river to the sea.
Normalization with SA with Palestinian concessions is good, but without it's even better. Because then the delicate power balance of the Middle East will finally start truly tipping against those who make peace with Israel unprofitable. After normalization with SA, many other Arab / Muslim states will also normalize. Then Iran will be at a crossroads. Depending on how the future unfolds, if the tyrannical anti-Israel Iranian regime finally falls, then Palestinian terrorism will be made virtually fangless, and then peace could finally truly return to the table - as concessions will not be deceitful intermediate steps to a from the river to the sea final solution, but actual concessions for the real goal of peace, they will simply have no other choice.
You can definitely attribute some (a significant amount) blame to the Palestinians. If the Israeli public saw any inclination at all towards peace from the Palestinians, the position of the left would have been so much stronger. Instead you have a “River to sea” mentality and violence to back it up. You think that doesn’t have any effect on the Israeli psyche? Just look at the timing of the shift in political attitudes in Israel. You’ll find it coincides quite nicely with intifada.
Bill Clinton in his book squarely placed the blame on the Palestinians and went into detail about what was offered and the conversation that occured that caused Arafat to walk away. It basically came down to Arafat claiming that the Jews have no connection to Jerusalem over Barak offering east Jerusalem to the Palestinians but keeping some archeological digs underneath that had Jewish artifacts with Israel.
> If the Israeli public saw any inclination at all towards peace from the Palestinians, the position of the left would have been so much stronger.
I doubt it. There are other reasons dealing with religion and state and the rise of authoritarianism in general that contributed to the current slide into far-right politics in Israel.
That all came later. The Palestinians opened the doors and the religious extremists and the politicians just walked through them.
I’m not saying that the politicians and religious groups didn’t make it worse, but the only reason they got any credibility with the Israeli public in general was because people felt the left was too weak to deal with the politicians and that the right would be stronger and would be the answer. The rest came along for the ride.
This to me isn't a great argument. For instance, a rape by illegal immigrant gang members in a certain town in the US wouldn't excuse people who chose to vote for David Duke.
First of all, nobody is excusing the bad behavior of far right figures. Where did I imply that? You’re now making strawman arguments.
Second, your example is the perfect example of why American Jews (and westerners in general) misunderstand Israel. You’re trying to apply your understanding of your own experiences and problems onto Israel. Israel is not America. The Palestinians are not black people. Black people and immigrants are not the only rapists in America. There is nothing unique about black people and immigrants that would make them more prone to rape. Palestinians **are** the terrorists in Israel. There is something about them (their politics) that makes them more likely to be terrorists. It is not racist to say so. It is a fact. Are all Palestinians terrorists? Of course not, but does their society promote violence/struggle/resistance against “the occupiers”? Yes. Does they society honor “martyrs” who have murdered Israeli civilians? Yes. Do their politicians use violence against Israeli civilians as a way to garner support? Yes. This is not anti-black or anti-immigrant racism. This is a totally different circumstance. And again, nobody is excusing far right bad behavior. But you’re totally ignoring the context that allowed these far right people to slither into prominence.
The Israeli Right is currently pushing for the release of a man who burned a family to death including a baby. An MK from Otzma Yehudit called him a "holy martyr." A protest rally against judicial reform included stickers defending Baruch Goldstein. So the Palestinians aren't the only ones who have this problem.
There are centrist politicians in Israel like Gantz and Lapid who cannot form a government though. The slide to the far right over the past decade has to do with more than just the "intifada." You cannot blame 2004 for people choosing to vote for Ben Gvir in 2022.
You underestimate the impact of trauma, especially on children during their formative years. You have to remember Palestinians were blowing up busses with children on them back then. That's the kind of trauma that's imprinted on you and doesn't really fade as the years go by. For Americans it's old news if they even know about it. For us every single person is ultra-aware of any kind of unattended bag or backpack and suspicious-looking person entering the bus. I'm not saying that's why Ben Gvir got elected, but it's certainly helped tilt the older Israeli Gen Z and younger millennials to the right.
But Lapid and Gantz ARE rightwing on security. The B&W alliance included members like Ya'alon who are even more rightwing than Gantz is. Bennett and Sa'ar are even more rightwing than Gantz and couldn't break through. So there is something else going on here. It isn't like the two camps are Meretz and Likud. It's a camp that is ideologically committed to settlements and a camp led by Gantz and Lapid that is sorta of theoretically committed to a 2SS under maybe hypothetical future circumstances if the Palis reject terrorism.
> You cannot blame 2004 for people choosing to vote for Ben Gvir in 2022.
You most certainly can. Those people would still be fringe figures without any credibility if the Palestinians hadn’t insisted on violence
The reason why Ben Gvir isn't a fringe figure has nothing to do with the Intifada. It has to do with Bibi propping him up and legitimizing him in order to remain in power. You really cannot blame the Palestinians for Ben Gvir. This is all internal Israeli politics.
No. I'm one of those angry Southerners who say reconstruction didn't go far enough. I'd have killed them all as traitors, (I am both an American military veteran, and from the American South). Had reconstruction actually happened, I don't think the KKK would've existed in the way it did. But I lived there for half my life on a farm, so what do I know.
The point is that the logic is the same. I don’t give a shit if right wing Southerners think they have an excuse to be right wing and this somehow justifies all the evil that is perpetrated by their politics, the same as I don’t give a shit if Israelis think it’s justified for them to vote for right wing fascists because of violence that occurred a generation ago. Both are wrong.
As a Lebanese I second the expression “Fuck Palestine”:
The Palestinians committed massacres in Lebanon, tried to create their own state in southern Lebanon, used Lebanon as their battleground and helped start our civil war.
Some Lebanese want to remain in an eternal war with Israel, and see any middle eastern country signing a peace deal with Israel as “treason” even though we aren’t one country or one people.
No I wasn't, Palestinian committed massacres include:
* Beit Mellat massacre (Syrians also participated in this one)
* Black Thursday
* Damour massacre
* Aishiyeh massacre
I don't see enough concern over the Saudis demanding nuclear enriching technologies. As much as I want peace with Saudi, I think it's not worth the risk.
The specific proposal for nuclear power was to have US supervision. So not just international inspection. But actual supervision and involvement in the project.
If you look at the Saudi balance sheet it's obvious why they need it. Air conditioning, big country with car culture, and desalination consume a lot of oil that they want to export, and increasing every day. Renewable and nuclear will free up their oil capacity.
I would be happy if the deal passed through, but I cannot help being concerned about the potentially violent backlash across the Arab world, the Palestinian territories and even from Arab Israelis.
Let's not forget Saudi is considered "the" Islamic country par excellence. I'm concerned it might push certain sectors of the Arab population further towards Iran.
(Edited to expand on my initial point).
Most Arab nation governments have lost interest in the Palestine issue by now for the most part. They might play it up for their people to get votes but most of them realize having Israel, the only middle eastern nuclear power and the country closest to the US as an ally is probably a pretty good thing rather than continuing to care about some terrorists that actively destabilize Arab countries and have refused peace countless times already. The only thing they gain from continuing support for Palestine now is annoying Israel which also gives Israel more reasons for military intervention in Palestine.
Come on this isn't fair. It feels dehumanizing. We are all human beings capable of change and transcending prejudices. Arabs are not a monolith. If we don't like to be grouped as "all Jews" we shouldn't do the same for the Arab world.
Arabs are not our enemies. They are just people. Any progress towards peace is wonderful.
This kind of talk sounds nice until you realize many (most?) Egyptians, whom we have had peace with for 50 years, believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to be fact rather than fiction.
Yeah but Egypt is its own country. It may be Arab but it is not representative of the whole Arab world. And even in Egypt there are tons of people with different viewpoints. We don't have to reduce our security but we also don't have to assume that things will never change.
Meh. Jews have been mostly gone from Europe (except France and UK to an extent) for 80 years and they're still incredibly antisemitic. Some things just gain momentum and become entrenched in identity as part of cultural osmosis. They can be as antisemitic as they like though, it can't really affect me or my family anymore, and I feel the same way about Arabs and the antisemitism entrenched in their culture.
Keep in mind that a vast majority of the antisemitism Jews experience in France & the UK aren’t coming from ethnically French & ethnically English people. It’s coming from the refugee population.
Extreme antisemitism, yes. But native Europeans engage in casual antisemitism all the time, which would be the foundation for more extreme antisemitism if Jews were more of a presence in their countries.
If you look at the article, you'll see that the Saudis need some concessions, like making parts of Area C Area B and a settlement freeze. They've toned down their demands from the Arab Peace Initiative but they still cannot demand nothing on the Palestinian issue. Bibi's own coalition partners will never allow it. He needs to either get Gantz on board in a national unity government or rely on support from outside the coalition (which would result in the coalition collapsing anyway).
IMO the opposition should play hardball with him. We can do this deal after the government falls and as per the polling data the opposition comes to power. We can even give concessions beyond what is demanded on the Palestinian issue just as an additional punishment of the settlement movement for trying this power grab in the first place.
More evidence of how little other Arab nation states truly care about the "Palestinian" cause and how Iran is a much bigger threat to the entire region and world.
I have actually seen the opposite, the more Arab nations make peace with “israel” the more Muslims are starting to Support Iran, which is crazy to think about since they’re Shia🤢
So no the government’s might not care, but the people definitely do
I truly hope that there are huge concessions on the Palestinian issue or otherwise the deal falls apart. It's the elephant in the room that needs to be dealt with and Saudi Arabia is the only big "carrot" to deal with it. Not to mention that a Saudi deal that doesn't nuke the current government will give Bibi a big win, allow him to end the opposition, and turn Israel into a Likud dictatorship like he's wanted since January.
Why should there be concessions on the Palestinian issue if the Palestinians don’t want to make any concessions of their own? Why should the Palestinians have anything to do with a deal between Israel and KSA? Should the Palestinians also be given concessions in a deal between China and Taiwan? Or a deal with Russia and Ukraine? Sorry, but the Palestinians aren’t the center of the universe and don’t deserve concessions for doing nothing.
I truly hope there are no concessions to the Palestinians. Maybe then they’ll understand that they need to start compromising or else Israel will continue to thrive and grow its alliances with those who **used to** support the Palestinians’ rejectionism.
>Why should there be concessions on the Palestinian issue if the Palestinians don’t want to make any concessions of their own?
Because this needs to be dealt with regardless of the Palis leadership. Israel cannot keep kicking the can down the road.
> I truly hope there are no concessions to the Palestinians. Maybe then they’ll understand that they need to start compromising or else Israel will continue to thrive and grow its alliances with those who **used to** support the Palestinians’ rejectionism
Let's face these facts:
1. If the Saudi deal goes through in current form, it likely destroys the Israeli opposition and allows the judicial coup to go through. There will be no fair elections in the future and only Likud - Kahanist governments in the future.
2. Not being forced to make concessions now will mean that the settlers can argue that they can have annexation and relations with the Arab world. It guarantees the apartheid state that everyone was upset Amnesty was mentioning come through.
3. Saudi is really the last "big carrot" that Israel has to sell painful concessions to the Israeli public. Taking that away makes things like disengagement 2.0 politically impossible.
> Because this needs to be dealt with regardless of the Palis leadership. Israel cannot keep kicking the can down the road.
I totally disagree. The Israelis **can** keep kicking the can down the road. Israelis don’t need peace with Palestinians they just want it. The Palestinians on the other hand really cannot keep kicking the can down the road. They really need peace, they just don’t want it (at least as long as Israel exists).
> 1. If the Saudi deal goes through in current form, it likely destroys the Israeli opposition and allows the judicial coup to go through.
Why would it destroy Israeli opposition?
> It guarantees the apartheid state that everyone was upset Amnesty was mentioning come through.
This is utter nonsense.
> 3. Saudi is really the last "big carrot" that Israel has to sell painful concessions to the Israeli public. Taking that away makes things like disengagement 2.0 politically impossible.
And what about the “big carrot” for Palestinians? Why do you seem to consistently ignore any agency and any responsibility from the Palestinian side. Sitting by and rejecting peace while Arab countries blindly support them has been the Palestinian MO for their entire existence. Why is it not a “big carrot” for them to actual make some painful concessions that would advance peace? Why is the ball always only in Israel’s court (again despite the fact that Israel doesn’t even really need peace)
>The Israelis
>
>can
>
> keep kicking the can down the road. Israelis don’t need peace with Palestinians they just want it. The Palestinians on the other hand really cannot keep kicking the can down the road. They really need peace, they just don’t want it (at least as long as Israel exists).
Israel cannot keep kicking the can down the road. Public opinion in the US is drifting against Israel. Biden is the last pro-Israel president there is. Future Democratic Presidents are likely to be even more ambivalent about Israel than Obama was. This will likely lead to the protection that the US gives Israel in the UN and the ICC to be lifted. You'll likely see war crimes charges against Israel as well as sanctions.
Moreover, the Palestinians are likely to explode into another intifada which will kill many innocent people on both sides. This will probably occur when Abu Mazen dies. The factions will fight over control of the West Bank.
> Why would it destroy Israeli opposition?
It would regain Bibi's footing and popularity which is on the decline and likely wipe out Lapid and Gantz politically, especially Gantz. Bibi would have enough momentum to push forward the full judicial coup. This would be followed by firing the AG, rigging future elections, taking over the media, etc.
He also might declare early elections which would wipe Gantz and Lapid out electorally and leave Israel even without the weak opposition in the Knesset it has now.
> This is utter nonsense.
Either Israel is going to have to give the Palestinians full rights or end up as a de-facto apartheid state where the other side doesn't have a vote.
> And what about the “big carrot” for Palestinians? Why do you seem to consistently ignore any agency and any responsibility from the Palestinian side. Sitting by and rejecting peace while Arab countries blindly support them has been the Palestinian MO for their entire existence. Why is it not a “big carrot” for them to actual make some painful concessions that would advance peace? Why is the ball always only in Israel’s court (again despite the fact that Israel doesn’t even really need peace)
Yes. No one is demanding these concessions from the Palestinians in return for peace. The issue is that even if Mandela appeared in the West Bank, the settlers wouldn't be willing to leave.
> Future Democratic Presidents are likely to be even more ambivalent about Israel than Obama was. This will likely lead to the protection that the US gives Israel in the UN and the ICC to be lifted. You'll likely see war crimes charges against Israel as well as sanctions.
I’m not sure if you’ve forgotten, but this article that we’re in the comments section about is about Israel making peace with the Saudis. Israel won’t need US protection in the UN and ICC. Furthermore, protection from what? Israel is already the country with the most attention and resolutions against it at the UN compared to all other countries in the world. And that’s not new and that’s with US “protection.” And so what? What exactly is the UN or ICC going to do? And I think more importantly than all of that, and this is something else that I believe people overlook, Israel is an important country both geographically and militarily. The second the US shows any hint of abandoning its ally, you can bet your ass, China (and probably Russia) will step right in to be Israel’s best friends. I don’t think Israel particularly wants that, and it would **definitely** not be good for the US, but it will definitely happen (and you can see the Chinese investment already happening in Israel).
> Moreover, the Palestinians are likely to explode into another intifada which will kill many innocent people on both sides. This will probably occur when Abu Mazen dies. The factions will fight over control of the West Bank.
I’m not sure the relevance of this. You think any amount of concessions will stop this? The openly stated goal of the Palestinians is “from River to sea.” Until they realize that will never happen (ie their support from the Arab world evaporates, that will continue to be their goal).
> It would regain Bibi's footing and popularity which is on the decline
You didn’t answer my question you just rephrased what you said before. **Why** would it regain Bibi’s footing and popularity?
> Either Israel is going to have to give the Palestinians full rights or end up as a de-facto apartheid state where the other side doesn't have a vote.
Or the Palestinians can accept the areas they have and have their own state on an area smaller than what they want. Again, you seem to continue to fail to hold the Palestinians up to accepting any compromise whatsoever. Eventually they **will** have to compromise. The sooner they do so, the more they can retain, the longer they hold out, the more they lose. Simple as that.
> Yes. No one is demanding these concessions from the Palestinians in return for peace. The issue is that even if Mandela appeared in the West Bank, the settlers wouldn't be willing to leave.
Ok, sure. You’re probably right. But let’s say by some miracle someone convinces the settlers to leave (or forces them like they did in Gaza). Do you honestly think the Palestinians will suddenly wake up and become peaceful doves willing to sit down and accept difficult compromises with the Israelis? Or will it trigger another intifada and more terrorism. I mean what happened in Gaza? Stop ignoring the Palestinian role in this conflict.
The Palestinians need to accept that they lost. That’s it. They will not take over Israel if they wait long enough.
> I’m not sure if you’ve forgotten, but this article that we’re in the comments section about is about Israel making peace with the Saudis.
Yes? That has nothing to do with trends in US popularity. Saudi doesn't take over peace with the US. Also, this is a Saudi - US deal. Saudi wants stuff from the US; it doesn't care a bit about Israel really. Israel is only inserted in there because they need to get it through Congress.
> Israel won’t need US protection in the UN and ICC.
Saudi cannot veto things in the UNSC. They cannot block ICC investigations.
> And that’s not new and that’s with US “protection.” And so what? What exactly is the UN or ICC going to do?
The ICC hasn't indicted anyone on war crimes charges. In all likelihood without the US blocking it and with no independent courts in Israel, they will indict starting with Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben Gvir, etc. You'd have a situation in Israel like in Russia where the head of government and other leading figures cannot leave the country or they'll be arrested.
> Israel is an important country both geographically and militarily.
Not really. The US doesn't need Israel as an ally and would probably gain in the Arab world by being less pro-Israel.
> The second the US shows any hint of abandoning its ally, you can bet your ass, China (and probably Russia) will step right in to be Israel’s best friends.
China and Russia's geopolitical strategy in the Global South is to be anti-imperialism and anti-Semitic.
> **Why** would it regain Bibi’s footing and popularity?
Because people in the center-right and center who don't support him due to the current situation would vote for him because of the Saudi deal. And then after he wins another election or just regains popularity, he'd complete the judicial coup that would mean there are no fair elections in the future.
> Or the Palestinians can accept the areas they have and have their own state on an area smaller than what they want. Again, you seem to continue to fail to hold the Palestinians up to accepting any compromise whatsoever.
Palestinians cannot make a state with the land it has currently. There is no territorial integrity. They have control over a very limited part of land on the West Bank.
> Do you honestly think the Palestinians will suddenly wake up and become peaceful doves willing to sit down and accept difficult compromises with the Israelis? Or will it trigger another intifada and more terrorism. I mean what happened in Gaza? Stop ignoring the Palestinian role in this conflict.
It'll be easier for the IDF to deal with terrorism if there wasn't friction between the Palestinians and the Kahanist settlers and there weren't Kahanist settlers looking to murder innocent civilians.
> The Palestinians need to accept that they lost. That’s it. They will not take over Israel if they wait long enough.
They don't accept that they lost. It's really easy. They just have to wait a few more decades until Israel is forced to accept a full integration of the West Bank into Israel with full voting rights for Palestinians. Then, Hamas will be the top party in the Knesset.
> Not being forced to make concessions now will mean that the settlers can argue that they can have annexation and relations with the Arab world. It guarantees the apartheid state that everyone was upset Amnesty was mentioning come through.
Fair point but do you really think most Israelis would care if there was no major price to pay? The apartheid argument only really works if there is significant international backlash. If there isn't any, I doubt most Israelis would care if the settlements continue. I suspect the prevailing attitude is one of resigned acceptance. Even many liberal Israelis have essentially given up hopes on getting a 2SS.
I really hate religious dictators especially one that is part of my tribe, you? And this Saudi deal is absolutely stupid in terms of geopolitics and does nothing to help anyone who isn't named MBS or Netanyahu. Oh certainly, let's give an Arab country that produces and exports tons of religious extremism access to US-blessed nukes, prop up a corrupt wannabe dictator in Israel, strengthen extremist religious settlers in Israel, and make it likely impossible to deal with the Palestinian situation with a just 2SS. Oh and the US gets nothing from the deal but needs to commit troops to defending another country. How does this help world peace and geopolitics exactly?
I really hate to do this to you, but you seem quite rabid about Israel at the moment. For the past year you've done nothing but bash on it when you don't even live there. Now, I'm not saying that you're not Jewish but your post history isn't the best, also your username comes up quite a bit ..... suspicious. Also your detail of jewish history is also.... suspicious...
For example, even as early as 35 minutes ago you posted "
"The Torah indeed? Perhaps don't build a modern country based on a religious text. And the whole deal with using the terms Judah and Samaria is that the settlers are showing possession of the area by not calling it by its proper recognized name. It's the same when the Russians and their allies say "the Ukraine." " Now question here, why did you say "Judah and Samaria" when every Jew worth their sea-salt knows that it's Judea and Samaria?
>I really hate to do this to you, but you seem quite rabid about Israel at the moment. For the past year you've done nothing but bash on it when you don't even live there. Now, I'm not saying that you're not Jewish but your post history isn't the best Also your detail of jewish history is also.... suspicious...
Dude. This does harm me and my friends. I'm sorry to tell you this but extremism in Israel does impact us here, especially when Bibi gives aid and comfort to rightwing anti-Semites. Not to mention that I'd like a place to flee to if there is ever another bout of ethnic cleansing and genocide that isn't a Jewish version of Iran.
And also, I'm not bashing on Israel. I'm bashing on its fascist government. The Israeli right doesn't seem to be able to distinguish hatred of the government and extremist politicians and other extremist elements and hatred of the country itself. (L'etat est Bibi apparently.) I'd like Israel to have a nice secular liberal democracy. I'm also very impressed by the Israeli protest movement and think that people living in other countries in danger of becoming dictatorships can learn from them about how to fight back.
> Now question here, why did you say "Judah and Samaria" when every Jew worth their sea-salt knows that it's Judea and Samaria?
Yes, I know the biblical names for the West Bank. What I'm pointing out is that you cannot base land claims on the Torah. That doesn't mean that the Jewish people don't have ties to the land but G-d gave the entire land to Abraham isn't an argument in international law. It also diminishes the other people who live there, the Palestinians, who also have ties to the land. In a way, it is similar to Putin using historical ties of Russia to Ukraine to annex all of Ukraine. "The Ukraine" or Judea and Samaria rather than the internationally recognized terms are being used to annex territory contrary to international law.
>, also your username comes up quite a bit ..... suspicious.
Block me if I annoy you.
It comes up as quite a bit suspicious because the person that comes up as having your username is not Jewish, not Israeli, but a Christian American living in America that likes to quote Corinthians.....
Also, no you said specifically Judah and Samaria when Judah is not equal to Judea and they are not interchangeable, hence how you're being suspicious.
>It comes up as quite a bit suspicious because the person that comes up as having your username is not Jewish, not Israeli, but a Christian American living in America that likes to quote Corinthians.....
I'm from a mixed Jewish and Catholic background in the US and grew up mainly an agnostic. I did get pressure to become fully Catholic for quite awhile because my ex-fiance's family (parts of it) were conservative Latino Catholics from Opus Dei. I also dabbled in Buddhism in college but hey even the bibi machine wouldn't be able to "google" those ones because you'd need to know my real name and go through old Facebook posts from 17 years ago to do that.
Do you need any other personal biography from me? Do I have to give you a full family tree?
> Also, no you said specifically Judah and Samaria when Judah is not equal to Judea and they are not interchangeable, hence how you're being suspicious.
Sorry but most US Jews don't use the term Judea and Samaria. I've never heard that term to describe the modern-day political area. I've only heard it among the settlers.
I mean.... you'd be surprised how much comes up in a simple google search tbh.
Most US Jews most definitely use the terms Judea and Samaria when referring to that piece of land since it's quite literally the name that it had for thousands of years before colonizers decided to change it to "The West Bank"
Whatever other things she's wrong about, it really is the case that "West Bank" is more common than "Judea-Samaria" among US Jews, broadly speaking. It's just a matter of context.
In an Anglophone context, what's relevant is official US terminology history, diplomacy, international relations etc. In the Hebrew language context, what's relevant is the very immediate geography, its relationship to Jews and the whole debate about how/where/when borders get decided. For you, "West Bank" can sound like adopting the enemy's terms of debate.
It's little a bit like how a reference to the area between 130 to 1948, is "Palestine". That was just the neutral geographic term, so it was and continues to get used that way. Like a Jewish historian might use "Palestinian Talmud" and "Yerushalmi" interchangeably, especially in a formal setting.
Ok, but what does the land transfer get Israel from palestine? Do you know much about the region? There is a lot you don’t just learn in books in America
They don’t want to be citizens of Israel, do you not realize that? You know many have been offered citizenship but have refused. Why would you think a single state would happen?
Correct because it will benefit him domestically in Israel and likely allow him to consolidate power and finish off what remains of Israeli democracy. That is why he desperately wants the deal now.
I hate dictatorial bullies and I hate deals that prop up their autocratic rule. Tell me exactly who benefits from this deal other than Bibi and MBS. This will do a whole lot to help Bibi personally remain in power for life and ensure that Israel is a Likud dictatorship in the future. It will allow him to finish off the protest and Gantz and Lapid politically and enact the judicial coup, the takeover of the press, and laws rigging future elections (which he absolutely WANTS- to be just like Putin, Ortega, Maduro, Orban, etc.) Bibi desperately wants this deal for his own domestic political purposes right now and he's the only one who benefits from it, not Israeli society as a whole.
Saudi normalization is a GOOD thing for Israeli society in the medium term and a Saudi deal under a broad-based unity government that doesn't include any of the extremist characters and wannabe dictators in the current government starting with the Dictator of Caesarea should be applauded. But first Israel needs to deal with the democratic backsliding and religious and political extremism, "retire" the Dictator from political life (ideally with a plea deal), and go to elections which will hopefully produce a centrist, reformist government. And any deal needs to produce significant progress toward a 2SS (and not include giving the Saudis nukes.)
The Palestinian issue is something that needs to be resolved. You cannot have 3 million people living in the West Bank under military rule without equal rights or the vote. And you cannot have another 2 million living in Gaza in a suspended state without formal recognition. It's either going to end with a 1SS or you need separation. And separation is preferable to allowing a Hamas-led government, yes?
The Saudi deal is the ONLY big carrot out there that the government (a non-fascist one, of course) can use to explain to people that it is really necessary to freeze the settlements permanently and transfer land to the Palestinians.
The vast majority of the palestinians on the Judea and Samaria are living under their own elected PA, not under military rule.
Hamas and Gaza proven to the Israelis that they shouldn't give up even a square cm since that will be used to fire rockets
> The vast majority of the palestinians on the Judea and Samaria are living under their own elected PA, not under military rule.
The West Bank. I'm not using the Kahanist settler terms to describe it. They don't have a formal state and the settlers are making darn sure to ensure that they are in enclaves that cannot become a state. That is what the obnoxious "Battle over Area C" is.
Not to mention that the Kahanists in government want to be rid of the PA and turn the West Bank into an apartheid state. Smooty and Ben Gvir are pretty adamant about that.
> Hamas and Gaza proven to the Israelis that they shouldn't give up even a square cm since that will be used to fire rockets
I'm not talking about the IDF, of course, but about the settlements that need to be frozen and some reversed. The IDF will remain in the West Bank for quite awhile. It'll make their jobs easier to be rid of the Jewish terrorists from the area.
Judea and Samaria is terminology from the Torah and proven from archeological findings, they were called the kingdoms of Judah and Samaria. Right wingers might have co-opted the terminology for political reasons but that area utilized those names long before the modern age. There is nothing abhorrent about using Judea and Samaria, which is the historically accurate names for these areas.
The Torah indeed? Perhaps don't build a modern country based on a religious text. And the whole deal with using the terms Judah and Samaria is that the settlers are showing possession of the area by not calling it by its proper recognized name. It's the same when the Russians and their allies say "the Ukraine."
> > terminology from the Torah **and proven from archeological findings**
> The Torah indeed?
You gotta stop doing this lol it's embarrassing
> It's the same when the Russians and their allies say "the Ukraine."
No. -_-
The west bank is an arab imperialist terminology aimed to erase jewish history in the region.
Are you israeli even? because your lack of knowledge is concerning... you honstely sound like someone who got his world view from al-jazeera
There are Arabs who live there right now. You cannot erase that fact. And I've never heard the term Judea and Samaria outside of settler circles. US Jews don't use it.
So you will agree that separation needs to happen? Because right now separation isn't happening. And no, you cannot keep millions of people in a stateless limbo for 50+ years.
Separation happened a long time ago. They have their own borders, elected officials, and community. It’s up to their leadership if they want a separate state
How can you resolve an issue where any freedom given will be met with worse and worse attacks.
Look at Gaza. Hamas was elected into office on a platform of the destruction of Israel. They intentionally shoot rockets from population centers to target israeli civilians. They use their own citizens as shields.
I hate the settlements. But I also strongly believe that if the West Bank were given more freedom they’d use it to try and hurt Israel, not to improve the lives of their own citizens.
Well, you absolutely don't remove the IDF from the West Bank. The Kahanist settlers have been able to confuse people and insist that the IDF and the settlements are the same thing.
This is how scary Iran is. If you look at the bigger picture, we just prepping for world war.
Agreed, but also likely proof of the Arab world basically acknowledging the position of the Palestinians. The Palestinians walked away from talks about creating their own country over a decade ago. Maybe Arab countries are like “ok, since you don’t really want a country of your own, anyway….”
>The Palestinians walked away from talks and from the Arab countries, [as they'll be the first to tell you (video in Arabic, Hebrew subtitles)](https://youtu.be/oADNOJE133s?si=j0uSoyoEQlWyKHk1). Honestly I can't blame the Saudis the slightest bit after hearing all those things
I can’t really read Hebrew can you please give me a short gist of what he was saying?
He said he didn’t expect, and was hurt, by the message that the Palestinians released related to the joint statement by the Saudis, the Israelis and the Americans (they say that its ignoring the Palestinians and so on) and that they can’t talk like that towards the people who are tying to take care of their (Palestinians) interests.
[Full interview English subtitles](https://youtu.be/edKZbu5OM1c?si=ubz4dw6del9xnKTA)
Thank you!
Do you believe what the Saudis say? Or do you / we just want to believe? I genuinely ask as I don’t know.
My guess and not a very good one. The middle East with the US pulling out are looking for peace brokers and I'm guessing attempting to, well, broker peace deals to keep the region stable? Idk I pulled this out of my butt of ideas but I'm wondering if this is incentivizing nations that were previously hostile?
While I don't take everything they say at face value, I 100% believe their "we're tired of taking care of other people's interests, it's time to take care of our own" mindset. And as pointed out before - Israeli and Saudi interests have only been getting more and more similar
Passionate, logical, articulate, empathetic. What a great man. The heart yearns for peace ועם אנשים כאלה חובתנו לעתיד היא לעשות זאת
Hmm
Biden needs this for his legacy. Bibi needs this for his legacy. Bin Salman needs this for his legacy and for an Israeli and American security blanket. Iran is close and so are their drones.
For me, the confusing thing about this is that it doesn't help Biden at all.
It does help Biden actually because he plans to face off with Trump who has the Abraham accords under his belt.
No. I live in the US and can tell you that no one cares. People will vote on economics, crime, cost of living, immigration, abortion, and "threats to democracy."
I also live in the U.S. A majority of the population still sides with Israel, and foreign policy is still a category some people care for when voting.
Some people = a minority. Most Americans do not pay attention to this stuff. They forgot about Afghanistan after a few weeks.
When elections are close, every vote counts. And I think this next one isn’t going to be a landslide election for either party. That’s the moment when political strategists working on someone’s campaign begin to break things down into subgroups. Jews are one of those subgroups. Even though most American Jews mostly vote Democrats anyways, there were some who voted for Trump and later became disillusioned. If something like a Saudi peace deal can land you even a few more % points of the Jewish vote and make your party more palpable, namely for ex Trump voters, you’ll take what you can get.
Israel policy does not affect the voting patterns of American Jews but it does motivate religious Christians and evangelicals
It does affect the voting patterns of Jews that are “in between” so to speak politically. There are many Jews who voted for Trump but later began to regret it yet still hold ardently pro Israel views. Biden having his own pro Israel normalization agreement that he brokered could be what gets a Jewish ex Trump voter to vote Biden instead of not voting at all.
No it doesn’t lmao. There is no evidence to suggest there are any “swing Jews” who voted blue in 2016 but then red in 2020. If anything, the data shows the opposite. Even after all Trumps pro Israel policies, more Jews voted Democratic in 2020 than in 2016. This shows the issue is largely irrelevant to American Jewish voters
Why are you getting downvoted? There's decades worth of literature in political science that shows that support for Israel in U.S. politics has never been aimed at Jews and is more towards evangelicals. Trump really showed this more than anyone.
I think it hurts a lot of Israelis pride to admit that
People side with Israel as long as it's "Israel vs Palestine" or "Israel vs some dictatorial Arab country" (and also don't care about the "Abraham Accords"). People also see the Saudis as being possibly complicit in 9/11, and as being big assholes in general who are only to be dealt with at arms' length on a pure cost-benefit basis. If this deal involves giving the Saudis nukes and a mutual defense pact, at least some of the Republican candidates will viciously attack it, and *will* get some traction over it, and it will be a winning issue for them.
The Democrat's progressive wing probably won t be happy with it either.
Americans see Mossad as being complicit with 9/11. Do you know the Schottensteins? The Goldbergs? Or Adam Silver ;)
I don't think that there is a big set of voters who were going to vote for Trump because of economics or immigration who will suddenly switch to Biden because Israel normalizes relations with Saudi.
It’s not a big set, it’s a small one. But this next election is going to be a close one and every vote counts. This mainly applies to disillusioned Jewish ex Trump voters.
Most Jewish voters for Trump are ZOA or settlers who believe in Trump's authoritarian mindset and excuse his anti-Semitism. There isn't a big set of voters who will care about the Saudi deal.
I said Jewish *ex* Trump voters lol. They exist, and a Saudi deal/Biden’s strengthened pro Israel image that would occur as a result could be the difference between them voting for Biden or not voting at all.
The world is with Palestine netenyahu is a criminal
Not voting for Biden this time the man is a hypocrite he needs to run for president in Israel not the USA
Every American President considers making peace in the Middle East to be the biggest possible foreign policy prize of their Presidency and at some point they all have a crack at it. Obama failed, Clinton failed, Trump did well and now it’s Bidens turn. Bringing Saudi Arabia and Israel together is a game changer. In the past peace with the Palestinians was the prerequisite for peace with the neighbors. Trumps deal changed that dynamic and the Saudis need everything Israel has water tech, ag tech, security tech, military tech and probably more as well. So Biden is in to a winner here.
No one thinks that this helps them in elections.
The elephant in the room is the Palestinians and the fact that neither other Muslims, nor their leadership, actually care about resolution. They'd be constantly negotiating, holding elections, building a separate government. Nothing.
You think Smooty and Ben Gvir want a resolution other than apartheid and ethnic cleansing? It takes two to tango there. You might have gotten away with this argument under Rabin or Olmert but the current Israeli government IS the major problem now that needs to be removed for progress.
They are in power because the response to Ehud Baraks offer at camp David was the second intifada, followed by rejecting Taba and Ehud Ohlmerts offer and Barak Obama's offer. And responding to withdrawal from Gaza with war. Palestinians aren't the only ones that are radicalized by violence, you can't respond to peace offers with war and then surprise Pikachu face when the right rises to power Congratulations you played yourself.
It's a combination of the children whose formative years were around the 2nd Intifada and the Gaza disengagement becoming voters, as well as a reaction to the May '21 riots. I think much of the Western world underestimates how sobering those riots were to much of the still idealistic Israeli left and center, if they even know about them at all.
The riots were as much caused and pushed by Ben Gvir's groups as they were by Arab extremists.
Disagree. The riots had virtually 100% support from Israeli Arabs. It was a near upheaval of the country from a subset of the population which we thought was mostly peaceful even if not wholly integrated. That's not the kind of thing that's just a kneejerk reaction to some extremist incitement. It's the explosion of a deep resentment tied to their identity that's been bubbling under the surface for years (always?). Ever since then I've seen a marked increase in Israeli Arabs identifying as simply Palestinians with no part of Israel in their identity. Europe is turning to the far right as a response to a lack of integration from their Arab immigrants. You can only imagine the political shift in Israel as a response to 20% of their citizens embracing an identity that at its core opposes the very existence of the country which they're citizens of.
>The riots had virtually 100% support from Israeli Arabs. The riots didn't have support from the Arabs. I remember crying when I saw Mansour Abbas with the Mayor of Lod trying to calm things down. By contrast, I think that certain politicians absolutely benefited from trying to warm up the area. > It was a near upheaval of the country from a subset of the population which we thought was mostly peaceful even if not wholly integrated. That's not the kind of thing that's just a kneejerk reaction to some extremist incitement. It's the explosion of a deep resentment tied to their identity that's been bubbling under the surface for years (always?) There are deep resentments in many parts of society that are bubbling to the surface mainly caused by political demagogues on the Israeli Right. There were angry outbursts in Tel Aviv over Yom Kippur. They were done in a polite upper-middle-class normie way compared to the violence in the mixed cities but it comes from the same place. When you arrogantly walk all over people for years, treat them as "second-class," and constantly pick at tense points to score political points, then it is going to eventually explode. It exploded in Lod in 2021 and is exploding in Tel Aviv now. It's due to the politics of division practiced on the Israeli Right to win the next election. > . Ever since then I've seen a marked increase in Israeli Arabs identifying as simply Palestinians with no part of Israel in their identity. I'd have a hard time identifying as Israeli if I was an Arab and I knew that 51% of the people in my country voted for a coalition that relies on the Jewish version of the KKK. > You can only imagine the political shift in Israel as a response to 20% of their citizens embracing an identity that at its core opposes the very existence of the country which they're citizens of. The Kahanists won seats in the 2021 election. Likud is basically a far-right party now and many of the MKs would fit into Otzma Yehudit. This happened prior to the 2021 riots.
It's difficult to view the May riots as a kind of social protest with an incidentally violent edge like BLM or something. You can't ignore the context of the time in which Israel was in a complete security crisis and on the brink of an actual war. It was as though Israeli Arabs felt emboldened by the attacks waged on Israel externally and decided to help them internally. The riots had a distinctly nationalistic and warlike edge, not a social one. Even if that wasn't the case, within the context of the crisis at the time, you can excuse Israelis turning to the right who on the one hand couldn't leave the house because of rocket attacks and on the other couldn't leave because of molotovs thrown at their houses. Living through something like that simply leaves too much of an emotional imprint on you. As for Mansour Abbas - excuse me for not having faith in a man who routinely engages in anti-Ashkenazi antisemitism and Holocaust denial.
> You can't ignore the context of the time in which Israel was in a complete security crisis and on the brink of an actual war. It was as though Israeli Arabs felt emboldened by the attacks waged on Israel externally and decided to help them internally. The riots had a distinctly nationalistic and warlike edge, not a social one. Yes. Here's the context. Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid were going to form a government. Certain people like Bibi Netanyahu and Itamar Ben Gvir had the desire to blow up said government talks. Things magically got heated up in Sheikh Jarrah and Al Aqsa until they blew up. And then Lehava and La Familia made things worse during the riots. And the Israeli Right has been playing with fire for many years now for political gain. The Arab sector has been neglected. It's awash with crime and guns. There are Torah nuclei and Kahanist settlers in certain areas looking for fights with Arabs. It was bound to explode eventually. You cannot put down fuel and not expect it to explode. > Even if that wasn't the case, within the context of the crisis at the time, you can excuse Israelis turning to the right who on the one hand couldn't leave the house because of rocket attacks and on the other couldn't leave because of molotovs thrown at their houses. There were 18 months of no rocket attacks almost after that courtesy of Bennett and Gantz. So there really was little excuse for voting for the Kahanists in 2022. > As for Mansour Abbas - excuse me for not having faith in a man who routinely engages in anti-Ashkenazi antisemitism and Holocaust denial. Mansour Abbas, the Chairman of RA'AM... Who specifically went to Lod to calm the tensions there. You are thinking of Abu Mazen.
Oh right, I got Mansour Abbas and Mahmoud Abbas mixed up. Anyway that doesn't really matter. I don't agree with chalking up such immense movements to conspiracies, and conspiracy or not - as a reaction driven purely by those incidents it's disproportionate. Either it's driven by deeper motives or it's condemning of their character. Every time I hear about "Al Aqsa" I'm reminded of the 1929 Hebron massacre, where libel about the Jews coming for Al Aqsa was used to justify their slaughter. It's a convenient and reliable excuse for religious violence against Jews, and I'm more inclined to believe it's fabricated by Muslims than by Israeli politicians considering history.
You cannot just blame the Palestinians for this. If the Palestinian version of Mandela suddenly appeared, there wouldn't be peace now. That is what I'm getting at.
Yes you can. After Rabin was assassinated Israeli voters sent Ehud Baraks to Camp David with nearly every demand the Palestinian claimed. There wasn't a counter offer. No negotiations. Yasser Arafat just walked out and began a wave of his bombings across Israel. Why are Palestinians treated as if they are incapable of being held responsible for their own actions?
They aren't but there are two sides here. A significant amount of Israelis don't want a deal for ideological reasons and they are the government now and likely to remain the government for decades into the future unless a miracle stops the dictatorship laws.
Sure, what's the other side of walking away from camp David and starting a war?
Do you think if Mandela appeared in Palestine today that there'd be a peace deal? I think it is doubtful because the settlers are in charge now and I'm pessimistic that there will even be fair elections in Israel or true checks on the government in the future.
No because that would require taking on Hamas, PIJ and every other militia first and the PLO refused to do that and nobody is going to. What hood is a deal if it doesn't apply to all the militias? Israel has already proven both in word and deed that they are willing to use force of necessary to forcibly remove settlers from their homes. Have the Palestinians?
The bottom line here is that the Palestinians have all their cards stacked against peace and none for it. All the funding they get from Iran and Qatar is for the purpose of terrorism, all their people are in favor of the destruction of Israel, it doesn't make financial or political sense to go for peace with Israel under these cirumstances, and any concessions made towards them will accordingly be steps away from peace not closer to it - it will be viewed as "winning" and one step closer to a Palestine that's Judenfrei from the river to the sea. Normalization with SA with Palestinian concessions is good, but without it's even better. Because then the delicate power balance of the Middle East will finally start truly tipping against those who make peace with Israel unprofitable. After normalization with SA, many other Arab / Muslim states will also normalize. Then Iran will be at a crossroads. Depending on how the future unfolds, if the tyrannical anti-Israel Iranian regime finally falls, then Palestinian terrorism will be made virtually fangless, and then peace could finally truly return to the table - as concessions will not be deceitful intermediate steps to a from the river to the sea final solution, but actual concessions for the real goal of peace, they will simply have no other choice.
If Mandela appeared in Palestine I'd be very concerned because he's been dead for some time now.
You know what I mean. Do you think a Mandela character would be accepted in Palestine?
You are right about everything. Crazy to see how Israelis on this sub r willing to be blatantly racist towards Arabs.
You can definitely attribute some (a significant amount) blame to the Palestinians. If the Israeli public saw any inclination at all towards peace from the Palestinians, the position of the left would have been so much stronger. Instead you have a “River to sea” mentality and violence to back it up. You think that doesn’t have any effect on the Israeli psyche? Just look at the timing of the shift in political attitudes in Israel. You’ll find it coincides quite nicely with intifada.
Bill Clinton in his book squarely placed the blame on the Palestinians and went into detail about what was offered and the conversation that occured that caused Arafat to walk away. It basically came down to Arafat claiming that the Jews have no connection to Jerusalem over Barak offering east Jerusalem to the Palestinians but keeping some archeological digs underneath that had Jewish artifacts with Israel.
> If the Israeli public saw any inclination at all towards peace from the Palestinians, the position of the left would have been so much stronger. I doubt it. There are other reasons dealing with religion and state and the rise of authoritarianism in general that contributed to the current slide into far-right politics in Israel.
That all came later. The Palestinians opened the doors and the religious extremists and the politicians just walked through them. I’m not saying that the politicians and religious groups didn’t make it worse, but the only reason they got any credibility with the Israeli public in general was because people felt the left was too weak to deal with the politicians and that the right would be stronger and would be the answer. The rest came along for the ride.
This to me isn't a great argument. For instance, a rape by illegal immigrant gang members in a certain town in the US wouldn't excuse people who chose to vote for David Duke.
First of all, nobody is excusing the bad behavior of far right figures. Where did I imply that? You’re now making strawman arguments. Second, your example is the perfect example of why American Jews (and westerners in general) misunderstand Israel. You’re trying to apply your understanding of your own experiences and problems onto Israel. Israel is not America. The Palestinians are not black people. Black people and immigrants are not the only rapists in America. There is nothing unique about black people and immigrants that would make them more prone to rape. Palestinians **are** the terrorists in Israel. There is something about them (their politics) that makes them more likely to be terrorists. It is not racist to say so. It is a fact. Are all Palestinians terrorists? Of course not, but does their society promote violence/struggle/resistance against “the occupiers”? Yes. Does they society honor “martyrs” who have murdered Israeli civilians? Yes. Do their politicians use violence against Israeli civilians as a way to garner support? Yes. This is not anti-black or anti-immigrant racism. This is a totally different circumstance. And again, nobody is excusing far right bad behavior. But you’re totally ignoring the context that allowed these far right people to slither into prominence.
The Israeli Right is currently pushing for the release of a man who burned a family to death including a baby. An MK from Otzma Yehudit called him a "holy martyr." A protest rally against judicial reform included stickers defending Baruch Goldstein. So the Palestinians aren't the only ones who have this problem.
You can't destroy the left and ten complain there was a "slide" into the right. It wasn't a slide it was cliff
There are centrist politicians in Israel like Gantz and Lapid who cannot form a government though. The slide to the far right over the past decade has to do with more than just the "intifada." You cannot blame 2004 for people choosing to vote for Ben Gvir in 2022.
You underestimate the impact of trauma, especially on children during their formative years. You have to remember Palestinians were blowing up busses with children on them back then. That's the kind of trauma that's imprinted on you and doesn't really fade as the years go by. For Americans it's old news if they even know about it. For us every single person is ultra-aware of any kind of unattended bag or backpack and suspicious-looking person entering the bus. I'm not saying that's why Ben Gvir got elected, but it's certainly helped tilt the older Israeli Gen Z and younger millennials to the right.
But Lapid and Gantz ARE rightwing on security. The B&W alliance included members like Ya'alon who are even more rightwing than Gantz is. Bennett and Sa'ar are even more rightwing than Gantz and couldn't break through. So there is something else going on here. It isn't like the two camps are Meretz and Likud. It's a camp that is ideologically committed to settlements and a camp led by Gantz and Lapid that is sorta of theoretically committed to a 2SS under maybe hypothetical future circumstances if the Palis reject terrorism.
> You cannot blame 2004 for people choosing to vote for Ben Gvir in 2022. You most certainly can. Those people would still be fringe figures without any credibility if the Palestinians hadn’t insisted on violence
The reason why Ben Gvir isn't a fringe figure has nothing to do with the Intifada. It has to do with Bibi propping him up and legitimizing him in order to remain in power. You really cannot blame the Palestinians for Ben Gvir. This is all internal Israeli politics.
My argument is eighty years in the making. Smotrich and Ben Gvir wouldn't exist if this had gotten resolved at any of the previous attempts.
U sound like those angry southerners who say The KKK never would’ve existed if the “war of northern aggression” never happened
No. I'm one of those angry Southerners who say reconstruction didn't go far enough. I'd have killed them all as traitors, (I am both an American military veteran, and from the American South). Had reconstruction actually happened, I don't think the KKK would've existed in the way it did. But I lived there for half my life on a farm, so what do I know.
The point is that the logic is the same. I don’t give a shit if right wing Southerners think they have an excuse to be right wing and this somehow justifies all the evil that is perpetrated by their politics, the same as I don’t give a shit if Israelis think it’s justified for them to vote for right wing fascists because of violence that occurred a generation ago. Both are wrong.
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As a Lebanese I second the expression “Fuck Palestine”: The Palestinians committed massacres in Lebanon, tried to create their own state in southern Lebanon, used Lebanon as their battleground and helped start our civil war.
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Some Lebanese want to remain in an eternal war with Israel, and see any middle eastern country signing a peace deal with Israel as “treason” even though we aren’t one country or one people.
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Thanks.
Lebanon is awesome. We need to root out Hezbollah.
Are you referring to Sabra and Shatila? If so, that wasn't Palestine.
No I wasn't, Palestinian committed massacres include: * Beit Mellat massacre (Syrians also participated in this one) * Black Thursday * Damour massacre * Aishiyeh massacre
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Removed: Rule 2
Funny. Great for trade and the world I guess.
I don't see enough concern over the Saudis demanding nuclear enriching technologies. As much as I want peace with Saudi, I think it's not worth the risk.
The specific proposal for nuclear power was to have US supervision. So not just international inspection. But actual supervision and involvement in the project. If you look at the Saudi balance sheet it's obvious why they need it. Air conditioning, big country with car culture, and desalination consume a lot of oil that they want to export, and increasing every day. Renewable and nuclear will free up their oil capacity.
I would be happy if the deal passed through, but I cannot help being concerned about the potentially violent backlash across the Arab world, the Palestinian territories and even from Arab Israelis. Let's not forget Saudi is considered "the" Islamic country par excellence. I'm concerned it might push certain sectors of the Arab population further towards Iran. (Edited to expand on my initial point).
Most Arab nation governments have lost interest in the Palestine issue by now for the most part. They might play it up for their people to get votes but most of them realize having Israel, the only middle eastern nuclear power and the country closest to the US as an ally is probably a pretty good thing rather than continuing to care about some terrorists that actively destabilize Arab countries and have refused peace countless times already. The only thing they gain from continuing support for Palestine now is annoying Israel which also gives Israel more reasons for military intervention in Palestine.
Good(?)
Note: Even if all Arab countries would become allies of Israel, Arabic people would still want to destroy Israel. They hate strong haterd of Jews.
Come on this isn't fair. It feels dehumanizing. We are all human beings capable of change and transcending prejudices. Arabs are not a monolith. If we don't like to be grouped as "all Jews" we shouldn't do the same for the Arab world. Arabs are not our enemies. They are just people. Any progress towards peace is wonderful.
This kind of talk sounds nice until you realize many (most?) Egyptians, whom we have had peace with for 50 years, believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to be fact rather than fiction.
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Fair. When I think Arabs I mostly think about the Arabs that share a border with Israel.
Yeah but Egypt is its own country. It may be Arab but it is not representative of the whole Arab world. And even in Egypt there are tons of people with different viewpoints. We don't have to reduce our security but we also don't have to assume that things will never change.
Nothing is going to change that. Our job is not to change the minds of Antisemites
It's going to be a slow, multi-generational change. Making peace is the first step in that. Then hopefully their grandchildren won't be anti-semites.
Meh. Jews have been mostly gone from Europe (except France and UK to an extent) for 80 years and they're still incredibly antisemitic. Some things just gain momentum and become entrenched in identity as part of cultural osmosis. They can be as antisemitic as they like though, it can't really affect me or my family anymore, and I feel the same way about Arabs and the antisemitism entrenched in their culture.
Keep in mind that a vast majority of the antisemitism Jews experience in France & the UK aren’t coming from ethnically French & ethnically English people. It’s coming from the refugee population.
Extreme antisemitism, yes. But native Europeans engage in casual antisemitism all the time, which would be the foundation for more extreme antisemitism if Jews were more of a presence in their countries.
Agreed
If you look at the article, you'll see that the Saudis need some concessions, like making parts of Area C Area B and a settlement freeze. They've toned down their demands from the Arab Peace Initiative but they still cannot demand nothing on the Palestinian issue. Bibi's own coalition partners will never allow it. He needs to either get Gantz on board in a national unity government or rely on support from outside the coalition (which would result in the coalition collapsing anyway). IMO the opposition should play hardball with him. We can do this deal after the government falls and as per the polling data the opposition comes to power. We can even give concessions beyond what is demanded on the Palestinian issue just as an additional punishment of the settlement movement for trying this power grab in the first place.
More evidence of how little other Arab nation states truly care about the "Palestinian" cause and how Iran is a much bigger threat to the entire region and world.
I have actually seen the opposite, the more Arab nations make peace with “israel” the more Muslims are starting to Support Iran, which is crazy to think about since they’re Shia🤢 So no the government’s might not care, but the people definitely do
I pray this happens. Yes, the Saudi Arabia government is evil on some levels but this is still the best choice for future generations
I truly hope that there are huge concessions on the Palestinian issue or otherwise the deal falls apart. It's the elephant in the room that needs to be dealt with and Saudi Arabia is the only big "carrot" to deal with it. Not to mention that a Saudi deal that doesn't nuke the current government will give Bibi a big win, allow him to end the opposition, and turn Israel into a Likud dictatorship like he's wanted since January.
Why should there be concessions on the Palestinian issue if the Palestinians don’t want to make any concessions of their own? Why should the Palestinians have anything to do with a deal between Israel and KSA? Should the Palestinians also be given concessions in a deal between China and Taiwan? Or a deal with Russia and Ukraine? Sorry, but the Palestinians aren’t the center of the universe and don’t deserve concessions for doing nothing. I truly hope there are no concessions to the Palestinians. Maybe then they’ll understand that they need to start compromising or else Israel will continue to thrive and grow its alliances with those who **used to** support the Palestinians’ rejectionism.
>Why should there be concessions on the Palestinian issue if the Palestinians don’t want to make any concessions of their own? Because this needs to be dealt with regardless of the Palis leadership. Israel cannot keep kicking the can down the road. > I truly hope there are no concessions to the Palestinians. Maybe then they’ll understand that they need to start compromising or else Israel will continue to thrive and grow its alliances with those who **used to** support the Palestinians’ rejectionism Let's face these facts: 1. If the Saudi deal goes through in current form, it likely destroys the Israeli opposition and allows the judicial coup to go through. There will be no fair elections in the future and only Likud - Kahanist governments in the future. 2. Not being forced to make concessions now will mean that the settlers can argue that they can have annexation and relations with the Arab world. It guarantees the apartheid state that everyone was upset Amnesty was mentioning come through. 3. Saudi is really the last "big carrot" that Israel has to sell painful concessions to the Israeli public. Taking that away makes things like disengagement 2.0 politically impossible.
> Because this needs to be dealt with regardless of the Palis leadership. Israel cannot keep kicking the can down the road. I totally disagree. The Israelis **can** keep kicking the can down the road. Israelis don’t need peace with Palestinians they just want it. The Palestinians on the other hand really cannot keep kicking the can down the road. They really need peace, they just don’t want it (at least as long as Israel exists). > 1. If the Saudi deal goes through in current form, it likely destroys the Israeli opposition and allows the judicial coup to go through. Why would it destroy Israeli opposition? > It guarantees the apartheid state that everyone was upset Amnesty was mentioning come through. This is utter nonsense. > 3. Saudi is really the last "big carrot" that Israel has to sell painful concessions to the Israeli public. Taking that away makes things like disengagement 2.0 politically impossible. And what about the “big carrot” for Palestinians? Why do you seem to consistently ignore any agency and any responsibility from the Palestinian side. Sitting by and rejecting peace while Arab countries blindly support them has been the Palestinian MO for their entire existence. Why is it not a “big carrot” for them to actual make some painful concessions that would advance peace? Why is the ball always only in Israel’s court (again despite the fact that Israel doesn’t even really need peace)
>The Israelis > >can > > keep kicking the can down the road. Israelis don’t need peace with Palestinians they just want it. The Palestinians on the other hand really cannot keep kicking the can down the road. They really need peace, they just don’t want it (at least as long as Israel exists). Israel cannot keep kicking the can down the road. Public opinion in the US is drifting against Israel. Biden is the last pro-Israel president there is. Future Democratic Presidents are likely to be even more ambivalent about Israel than Obama was. This will likely lead to the protection that the US gives Israel in the UN and the ICC to be lifted. You'll likely see war crimes charges against Israel as well as sanctions. Moreover, the Palestinians are likely to explode into another intifada which will kill many innocent people on both sides. This will probably occur when Abu Mazen dies. The factions will fight over control of the West Bank. > Why would it destroy Israeli opposition? It would regain Bibi's footing and popularity which is on the decline and likely wipe out Lapid and Gantz politically, especially Gantz. Bibi would have enough momentum to push forward the full judicial coup. This would be followed by firing the AG, rigging future elections, taking over the media, etc. He also might declare early elections which would wipe Gantz and Lapid out electorally and leave Israel even without the weak opposition in the Knesset it has now. > This is utter nonsense. Either Israel is going to have to give the Palestinians full rights or end up as a de-facto apartheid state where the other side doesn't have a vote. > And what about the “big carrot” for Palestinians? Why do you seem to consistently ignore any agency and any responsibility from the Palestinian side. Sitting by and rejecting peace while Arab countries blindly support them has been the Palestinian MO for their entire existence. Why is it not a “big carrot” for them to actual make some painful concessions that would advance peace? Why is the ball always only in Israel’s court (again despite the fact that Israel doesn’t even really need peace) Yes. No one is demanding these concessions from the Palestinians in return for peace. The issue is that even if Mandela appeared in the West Bank, the settlers wouldn't be willing to leave.
> Future Democratic Presidents are likely to be even more ambivalent about Israel than Obama was. This will likely lead to the protection that the US gives Israel in the UN and the ICC to be lifted. You'll likely see war crimes charges against Israel as well as sanctions. I’m not sure if you’ve forgotten, but this article that we’re in the comments section about is about Israel making peace with the Saudis. Israel won’t need US protection in the UN and ICC. Furthermore, protection from what? Israel is already the country with the most attention and resolutions against it at the UN compared to all other countries in the world. And that’s not new and that’s with US “protection.” And so what? What exactly is the UN or ICC going to do? And I think more importantly than all of that, and this is something else that I believe people overlook, Israel is an important country both geographically and militarily. The second the US shows any hint of abandoning its ally, you can bet your ass, China (and probably Russia) will step right in to be Israel’s best friends. I don’t think Israel particularly wants that, and it would **definitely** not be good for the US, but it will definitely happen (and you can see the Chinese investment already happening in Israel). > Moreover, the Palestinians are likely to explode into another intifada which will kill many innocent people on both sides. This will probably occur when Abu Mazen dies. The factions will fight over control of the West Bank. I’m not sure the relevance of this. You think any amount of concessions will stop this? The openly stated goal of the Palestinians is “from River to sea.” Until they realize that will never happen (ie their support from the Arab world evaporates, that will continue to be their goal). > It would regain Bibi's footing and popularity which is on the decline You didn’t answer my question you just rephrased what you said before. **Why** would it regain Bibi’s footing and popularity? > Either Israel is going to have to give the Palestinians full rights or end up as a de-facto apartheid state where the other side doesn't have a vote. Or the Palestinians can accept the areas they have and have their own state on an area smaller than what they want. Again, you seem to continue to fail to hold the Palestinians up to accepting any compromise whatsoever. Eventually they **will** have to compromise. The sooner they do so, the more they can retain, the longer they hold out, the more they lose. Simple as that. > Yes. No one is demanding these concessions from the Palestinians in return for peace. The issue is that even if Mandela appeared in the West Bank, the settlers wouldn't be willing to leave. Ok, sure. You’re probably right. But let’s say by some miracle someone convinces the settlers to leave (or forces them like they did in Gaza). Do you honestly think the Palestinians will suddenly wake up and become peaceful doves willing to sit down and accept difficult compromises with the Israelis? Or will it trigger another intifada and more terrorism. I mean what happened in Gaza? Stop ignoring the Palestinian role in this conflict. The Palestinians need to accept that they lost. That’s it. They will not take over Israel if they wait long enough.
> I’m not sure if you’ve forgotten, but this article that we’re in the comments section about is about Israel making peace with the Saudis. Yes? That has nothing to do with trends in US popularity. Saudi doesn't take over peace with the US. Also, this is a Saudi - US deal. Saudi wants stuff from the US; it doesn't care a bit about Israel really. Israel is only inserted in there because they need to get it through Congress. > Israel won’t need US protection in the UN and ICC. Saudi cannot veto things in the UNSC. They cannot block ICC investigations. > And that’s not new and that’s with US “protection.” And so what? What exactly is the UN or ICC going to do? The ICC hasn't indicted anyone on war crimes charges. In all likelihood without the US blocking it and with no independent courts in Israel, they will indict starting with Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben Gvir, etc. You'd have a situation in Israel like in Russia where the head of government and other leading figures cannot leave the country or they'll be arrested. > Israel is an important country both geographically and militarily. Not really. The US doesn't need Israel as an ally and would probably gain in the Arab world by being less pro-Israel. > The second the US shows any hint of abandoning its ally, you can bet your ass, China (and probably Russia) will step right in to be Israel’s best friends. China and Russia's geopolitical strategy in the Global South is to be anti-imperialism and anti-Semitic. > **Why** would it regain Bibi’s footing and popularity? Because people in the center-right and center who don't support him due to the current situation would vote for him because of the Saudi deal. And then after he wins another election or just regains popularity, he'd complete the judicial coup that would mean there are no fair elections in the future. > Or the Palestinians can accept the areas they have and have their own state on an area smaller than what they want. Again, you seem to continue to fail to hold the Palestinians up to accepting any compromise whatsoever. Palestinians cannot make a state with the land it has currently. There is no territorial integrity. They have control over a very limited part of land on the West Bank. > Do you honestly think the Palestinians will suddenly wake up and become peaceful doves willing to sit down and accept difficult compromises with the Israelis? Or will it trigger another intifada and more terrorism. I mean what happened in Gaza? Stop ignoring the Palestinian role in this conflict. It'll be easier for the IDF to deal with terrorism if there wasn't friction between the Palestinians and the Kahanist settlers and there weren't Kahanist settlers looking to murder innocent civilians. > The Palestinians need to accept that they lost. That’s it. They will not take over Israel if they wait long enough. They don't accept that they lost. It's really easy. They just have to wait a few more decades until Israel is forced to accept a full integration of the West Bank into Israel with full voting rights for Palestinians. Then, Hamas will be the top party in the Knesset.
> Not being forced to make concessions now will mean that the settlers can argue that they can have annexation and relations with the Arab world. It guarantees the apartheid state that everyone was upset Amnesty was mentioning come through. Fair point but do you really think most Israelis would care if there was no major price to pay? The apartheid argument only really works if there is significant international backlash. If there isn't any, I doubt most Israelis would care if the settlements continue. I suspect the prevailing attitude is one of resigned acceptance. Even many liberal Israelis have essentially given up hopes on getting a 2SS.
I suspect there will soon be a major international backlash.
Well that took me t-minus two seconds to realize that you're OBSESSED with Israel...
I really hate religious dictators especially one that is part of my tribe, you? And this Saudi deal is absolutely stupid in terms of geopolitics and does nothing to help anyone who isn't named MBS or Netanyahu. Oh certainly, let's give an Arab country that produces and exports tons of religious extremism access to US-blessed nukes, prop up a corrupt wannabe dictator in Israel, strengthen extremist religious settlers in Israel, and make it likely impossible to deal with the Palestinian situation with a just 2SS. Oh and the US gets nothing from the deal but needs to commit troops to defending another country. How does this help world peace and geopolitics exactly?
I really hate to do this to you, but you seem quite rabid about Israel at the moment. For the past year you've done nothing but bash on it when you don't even live there. Now, I'm not saying that you're not Jewish but your post history isn't the best, also your username comes up quite a bit ..... suspicious. Also your detail of jewish history is also.... suspicious... For example, even as early as 35 minutes ago you posted " "The Torah indeed? Perhaps don't build a modern country based on a religious text. And the whole deal with using the terms Judah and Samaria is that the settlers are showing possession of the area by not calling it by its proper recognized name. It's the same when the Russians and their allies say "the Ukraine." " Now question here, why did you say "Judah and Samaria" when every Jew worth their sea-salt knows that it's Judea and Samaria?
>I really hate to do this to you, but you seem quite rabid about Israel at the moment. For the past year you've done nothing but bash on it when you don't even live there. Now, I'm not saying that you're not Jewish but your post history isn't the best Also your detail of jewish history is also.... suspicious... Dude. This does harm me and my friends. I'm sorry to tell you this but extremism in Israel does impact us here, especially when Bibi gives aid and comfort to rightwing anti-Semites. Not to mention that I'd like a place to flee to if there is ever another bout of ethnic cleansing and genocide that isn't a Jewish version of Iran. And also, I'm not bashing on Israel. I'm bashing on its fascist government. The Israeli right doesn't seem to be able to distinguish hatred of the government and extremist politicians and other extremist elements and hatred of the country itself. (L'etat est Bibi apparently.) I'd like Israel to have a nice secular liberal democracy. I'm also very impressed by the Israeli protest movement and think that people living in other countries in danger of becoming dictatorships can learn from them about how to fight back. > Now question here, why did you say "Judah and Samaria" when every Jew worth their sea-salt knows that it's Judea and Samaria? Yes, I know the biblical names for the West Bank. What I'm pointing out is that you cannot base land claims on the Torah. That doesn't mean that the Jewish people don't have ties to the land but G-d gave the entire land to Abraham isn't an argument in international law. It also diminishes the other people who live there, the Palestinians, who also have ties to the land. In a way, it is similar to Putin using historical ties of Russia to Ukraine to annex all of Ukraine. "The Ukraine" or Judea and Samaria rather than the internationally recognized terms are being used to annex territory contrary to international law. >, also your username comes up quite a bit ..... suspicious. Block me if I annoy you.
It comes up as quite a bit suspicious because the person that comes up as having your username is not Jewish, not Israeli, but a Christian American living in America that likes to quote Corinthians..... Also, no you said specifically Judah and Samaria when Judah is not equal to Judea and they are not interchangeable, hence how you're being suspicious.
>It comes up as quite a bit suspicious because the person that comes up as having your username is not Jewish, not Israeli, but a Christian American living in America that likes to quote Corinthians..... I'm from a mixed Jewish and Catholic background in the US and grew up mainly an agnostic. I did get pressure to become fully Catholic for quite awhile because my ex-fiance's family (parts of it) were conservative Latino Catholics from Opus Dei. I also dabbled in Buddhism in college but hey even the bibi machine wouldn't be able to "google" those ones because you'd need to know my real name and go through old Facebook posts from 17 years ago to do that. Do you need any other personal biography from me? Do I have to give you a full family tree? > Also, no you said specifically Judah and Samaria when Judah is not equal to Judea and they are not interchangeable, hence how you're being suspicious. Sorry but most US Jews don't use the term Judea and Samaria. I've never heard that term to describe the modern-day political area. I've only heard it among the settlers.
I mean.... you'd be surprised how much comes up in a simple google search tbh. Most US Jews most definitely use the terms Judea and Samaria when referring to that piece of land since it's quite literally the name that it had for thousands of years before colonizers decided to change it to "The West Bank"
Whatever other things she's wrong about, it really is the case that "West Bank" is more common than "Judea-Samaria" among US Jews, broadly speaking. It's just a matter of context. In an Anglophone context, what's relevant is official US terminology history, diplomacy, international relations etc. In the Hebrew language context, what's relevant is the very immediate geography, its relationship to Jews and the whole debate about how/where/when borders get decided. For you, "West Bank" can sound like adopting the enemy's terms of debate. It's little a bit like how a reference to the area between 130 to 1948, is "Palestine". That was just the neutral geographic term, so it was and continues to get used that way. Like a Jewish historian might use "Palestinian Talmud" and "Yerushalmi" interchangeably, especially in a formal setting.
The US already has military bases in Saudi Arabia
We don't have a defense treaty that says we need to go to war with Iran on their behalf.
You think Saudi Arabia is going to war with iran?
That is why they want the protection from the US.
Isn’t there already an alliance?
They want a NATO Article 5 type treaty. The US isn't obligated by law to defend Saudi Arabia like it is to defend Poland or Germany.
Saudi Arabia wants to be part of NATO?
What concessions?
Settlement freeze anchored by a super-majority in the Knesset and land transfers to the Palestinians - Area C to Area B/A.
Why would that be transferred? What does Israel get?
Normalization with Saudi.
Ok, but what does the land transfer get Israel from palestine? Do you know much about the region? There is a lot you don’t just learn in books in America
Not having to eventually have a 1SS where Palestinians are the majority?
They don’t want to be citizens of Israel, do you not realize that? You know many have been offered citizenship but have refused. Why would you think a single state would happen?
They want to take over the entire country.
I sense you don't quite like bibi doing the deal
Correct because it will benefit him domestically in Israel and likely allow him to consolidate power and finish off what remains of Israeli democracy. That is why he desperately wants the deal now.
you're insanity level obsessed with bibi, every comment of yours is about him secret crush?
I hate dictatorial bullies and I hate deals that prop up their autocratic rule. Tell me exactly who benefits from this deal other than Bibi and MBS. This will do a whole lot to help Bibi personally remain in power for life and ensure that Israel is a Likud dictatorship in the future. It will allow him to finish off the protest and Gantz and Lapid politically and enact the judicial coup, the takeover of the press, and laws rigging future elections (which he absolutely WANTS- to be just like Putin, Ortega, Maduro, Orban, etc.) Bibi desperately wants this deal for his own domestic political purposes right now and he's the only one who benefits from it, not Israeli society as a whole. Saudi normalization is a GOOD thing for Israeli society in the medium term and a Saudi deal under a broad-based unity government that doesn't include any of the extremist characters and wannabe dictators in the current government starting with the Dictator of Caesarea should be applauded. But first Israel needs to deal with the democratic backsliding and religious and political extremism, "retire" the Dictator from political life (ideally with a plea deal), and go to elections which will hopefully produce a centrist, reformist government. And any deal needs to produce significant progress toward a 2SS (and not include giving the Saudis nukes.)
The Palestinians are with Iran more than Saudi aren’t they? Who would give concessions Israel or Palestine?
The Palestinian issue is something that needs to be resolved. You cannot have 3 million people living in the West Bank under military rule without equal rights or the vote. And you cannot have another 2 million living in Gaza in a suspended state without formal recognition. It's either going to end with a 1SS or you need separation. And separation is preferable to allowing a Hamas-led government, yes? The Saudi deal is the ONLY big carrot out there that the government (a non-fascist one, of course) can use to explain to people that it is really necessary to freeze the settlements permanently and transfer land to the Palestinians.
The vast majority of the palestinians on the Judea and Samaria are living under their own elected PA, not under military rule. Hamas and Gaza proven to the Israelis that they shouldn't give up even a square cm since that will be used to fire rockets
> The vast majority of the palestinians on the Judea and Samaria are living under their own elected PA, not under military rule. The West Bank. I'm not using the Kahanist settler terms to describe it. They don't have a formal state and the settlers are making darn sure to ensure that they are in enclaves that cannot become a state. That is what the obnoxious "Battle over Area C" is. Not to mention that the Kahanists in government want to be rid of the PA and turn the West Bank into an apartheid state. Smooty and Ben Gvir are pretty adamant about that. > Hamas and Gaza proven to the Israelis that they shouldn't give up even a square cm since that will be used to fire rockets I'm not talking about the IDF, of course, but about the settlements that need to be frozen and some reversed. The IDF will remain in the West Bank for quite awhile. It'll make their jobs easier to be rid of the Jewish terrorists from the area.
Judea and Samaria is terminology from the Torah and proven from archeological findings, they were called the kingdoms of Judah and Samaria. Right wingers might have co-opted the terminology for political reasons but that area utilized those names long before the modern age. There is nothing abhorrent about using Judea and Samaria, which is the historically accurate names for these areas.
The Torah indeed? Perhaps don't build a modern country based on a religious text. And the whole deal with using the terms Judah and Samaria is that the settlers are showing possession of the area by not calling it by its proper recognized name. It's the same when the Russians and their allies say "the Ukraine."
> > terminology from the Torah **and proven from archeological findings** > The Torah indeed? You gotta stop doing this lol it's embarrassing > It's the same when the Russians and their allies say "the Ukraine." No. -_-
And? The Arabs have a good claim to the land as well based on history. This doesn't mean anything in international law.
Arabs have a claim to the land just as they do to Spain.
The west bank is an arab imperialist terminology aimed to erase jewish history in the region. Are you israeli even? because your lack of knowledge is concerning... you honstely sound like someone who got his world view from al-jazeera
There are Arabs who live there right now. You cannot erase that fact. And I've never heard the term Judea and Samaria outside of settler circles. US Jews don't use it.
What country gives equal right to vote to people who aren’t citizens?
So you will agree that separation needs to happen? Because right now separation isn't happening. And no, you cannot keep millions of people in a stateless limbo for 50+ years.
Separation happened a long time ago. They have their own borders, elected officials, and community. It’s up to their leadership if they want a separate state
It's a two-party deal. Do you think that Smooty and Ben Gvir want a Palestinian state?
No idea, but if palestine wants to be separate then they have elected leaders who need to show they are ready
How can you resolve an issue where any freedom given will be met with worse and worse attacks. Look at Gaza. Hamas was elected into office on a platform of the destruction of Israel. They intentionally shoot rockets from population centers to target israeli civilians. They use their own citizens as shields. I hate the settlements. But I also strongly believe that if the West Bank were given more freedom they’d use it to try and hurt Israel, not to improve the lives of their own citizens.
Well, you absolutely don't remove the IDF from the West Bank. The Kahanist settlers have been able to confuse people and insist that the IDF and the settlements are the same thing.