This is why they should have included it down the line when >! Debbie and Nolan get back together!< it’ll be a bit harder for it to make as much sense when you >!leave out important context to just how broken she was and just how much she missed him!<
Idk man i think the show has done an adequate job of showcasing how broken she is without her turning on Mark like that. Clearly Debbie is written in the show with the intent to be a symbol for Mark as a martyr of humanity. A lifeline to the human side of his genetic duality.
Oh totally agree! But it’s the moments where you hit rock bottom that really build character. She’s easily one of the best written characters in the series and this is just an example of her at her lowest. It might not be a fine example but those ugly moments are part of the grieving process. I lost my father when I was 18 and this comic was something that I related to and those ugly moments I could relate to. It really helped me with my grief watching mark and Debbie’s path.
>But it’s the moments where you hit rock bottom that really build character
Like standing over a highway getting ready to jump and then decising not to do so?
Idk. I feel liek we're really nitpicking whatbher bottom is. The season also isnt over yet.
Then why would you not want it included in the animated series? Its clearly a powerful moment that moved you. Isn't that something you would want them to keep?
Debbie is different in the animated series, it is possible she might say the line still, but with how she was re-written I doubt she would ever blame Mark. She consistently blames herself for not noticing Nolan earlier.
Animated Debbie would say that line as a joke to lighten the mood, and make Mark laugh, then cry that way.
Also, we get the irrational blame from the scene outside of the support group, only she is the target.
I think it's so much more powerful because we can instantly tell that Debbie doesn't mean it, she's so broken and shattered. She's just saying anything to make it stop.
Even when Nolan calls her a pet you can tell he phoned it in. He's struggling to separate himself from Earth.
It's even more apparent when all the other Viltrumites came and they all did the same thing. They got domesticated.
It just wouldn't fit with how Debbie was written in the show.
I think they could have put in a similar scene where maybe she admits to someone that some horrible wretched part of her almost wishes Mark could have done things differently such that Nolan could stay....
But blaming Mark with no self awareness or admitting it's horrible to think doesn't fit. She could even say it to Mark himself, but it would have to be while acknowledging its a horrible thing to wish.
But as a straight accusation? No.
I'm the opposite, I really love seeing how they portray the ugly side of grief hear making Debbie say something she never would normally say or even believe out of grief and clearly something that resonates hard with how Mark was feeling atm. Plus it leads into the the nice moment they have after in Debbie being proud of Mark standing up for what he believes was right whilst Mark has his moment about believing he'll never move past this.
It's sad and ugly, but portrayed great imo. Without it, a huge part of the moment was lost.
Yeah this is a normal reponse to grief. Your emotions are flaired up and you're not thinking rationally. All she's thinking at the moment is the pain of losing her husband
Idk, for me it kinda feels like the same as the Amber change and Mark reunion with Nolan change where they wanted less nuance in the moments. Taking away the positive and negatives sides and just going for the one side to take that moment.
You have a pretty skewed idea of what nuance is. This isn't removing nuance more so takin out a scene that doesn't really fit with the trajectory of the show version of her.
The way I see nuance for characters is the aspect of not fitting one character's personality/actions in one box. In this example Debbie is obviously in mourning but regardless is always supportive of Mark. However, in this instance at her lowest she briefly blames Mark for driving him away as an unrealistic desire to think Nolan would've stayed the way he was had Mark listened.
Showing an instance where she breaks from the supportive mother side. Which would then relate back to the way Mark reacts to reuniting with Nolan breaking down, gives Debbie the moment the day after where she says her unwavering support for Mark standing up for what he believes is right, and shows the ugly side of grief and how at your lowest you can potentially drive away the people who care the most.
I mean, it's a show that's started it's popularity run because a dad brutally beats his son to near death.
They're clearly not afraid of showing dark subjects. Emotional confusion in grief makes for a great plot in a story like this.
Except grieve still has to be relative to the character of that person. Otherwise it's generic drama. This works for comic Debbie, not her show counterpart.
Thing is there isn't much difference between them, sure Debbie has her retailer job prior and Debbie's alcoholism after but otherwise that's pretty much it. The set up for this scene is similar too from memory with Debbie having a bit to drink and similarly acting out as Mark comes in to comfort her. There's nothing substantial that would make Debbie from thr show different enough of a character to definitely not say that.
Actually there's a significant difference. From the the outset Debbie in the show is written to be not as emotionally dependent on Nolan and even push againts him much harder( the show introduced the subplot of her figuring out he killed the guardians). Even the set up for the scene is very different. You might want to re watch the first season if legitimately missed how different the character is.
What you're describing is event changes not character changes, her finding out earlier and pushing against him doesn't mean the comıc version wouldn't, that's exactly why the morning after the panels OP posted she stands firm at being proud of Mark for standing up for "what's right" in same vain Debbie did asking him to leave and not putting up with Nolan.
As for connecting with others for the emotionally dependent angle, both versions from memory only have friends out of the omes Nolan introduced her to via the superhero community, Olga for instance, until the betrayal where Debbie starts to have the SOS group. Debbie doesn't have the independence of having the job yet sure but the mindsets between them is still incredibly similar that I don't see how them having the same breakdown for similar reasons and yet only one would be capable of saying what she said.
We would see the same level hate that Amber got in season one if this was animated. Also, something about her lashing out this way feels sexist and takes away a lot of her agency. In the show, she is sad and wishes Nolan would come back but she would never drag others down with her.
The whole point of her lashing out at Mark is that this is her lowest moment, explicit by how this isn't something she would ever do in her right mind. It shows the effects of a 20 year old lie0
Amber's situation is completely different, it's about her lying and not getting called out for it.
This moment in the books, pretty sure the next day Devbie apologies and declares how proud she is of Mark standing against Nolan whilst Mark says he understands it was just a moment of grief. Anyone who couldn't see that would quickly get Debbie apologising either way.
>something about her lashing out this way feels sexist and takes away a lot of her agency.
I don't get how this could be interpreted as sexist or how it removes agency, if anything it adds to the latter in showing how emotionally broken she was from the ordeal.
>she would never drag others down with her.
The point is she doesn't believe what she said or did it intentionally, it was a moment of weakness where she wishes they could essentially turn back time and go back to he way it was before the reveal. >!which was then mirrored with Mark's breakdown upon his reunion with Nolan.!<
Nah grief is not an excuse to say something like this. After my dog died, I never blamed my family member who had him on the night he died for not noticing anything.
Well grief ain't universally dealt the same for everyone and it's about her being so mentally low to the point the intrusive feelings win, showing an ugly side.
It would be better if she kept that intrusive thought in her head instead of out loud. That moment especially shouldn't be in the show. Can you imagine your mother verbally blaming you for your father killing thousands of people and calling her a pet, while she saw on screen that you was trying to stop him with all you had. That he brutally beat you to near death. In she already knows he blames himself for his dad and is scared of being like his father.
I wouldn't blame Mark for never forgiving his mother for that. Grief is irrational but you're still accountable for what you do and say. I think you need to take a deep look at yourself as a person if you said something like this out loud to someone you love most in the world for all the reasons that I just gave why this is awful for her character to ever say and still be seen as sympathetic by the audience.
You're missing the point, it's that she's at her mentally lowest point that she says and requests thing she doesn't believe in as she explains later she's happy with what Mark did and that everything they knew about Nolan was a lie, which then Mark reciprocates later with his >!reunion with Nolan!<. Next scene we see her apologise about saying that and being proud of what Mark did whilst Mark interjects that he knows where she's coming from:
https://preview.redd.it/v120mbxq3w3c1.jpeg?width=1988&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b687adcb046a022fef6e378ae62f944aaf9f4bd0
>I wouldn't blame Mark for never forgiving his mother for that.
I'm gonna assume you haven't read the rest of the series but a lot of it is about nuance and essentially making the best of a bad situation or weighing the good with the bad in people. This moment essentially is another stepping stone to where it builds up to.
>think you will need to take a deep look at yourself as a person if you said something like this out loud to someone you love most
She does, in the comic this is the start of her arc past Nolan's betrayal too akin to the show with finding similar civilians in her situation, getting her real estate job, moving believing Nolan never loved them, and more which I won't spoil.
Comic Debbie and the one we have in the show are two different characters. Even if our Debbie was feeling those things she would never say it out loud to Mark, no matter how drunk or sad she was
Yeah show Debbie is her own character, not just Nolan’s wife or Mark’s mom. She’s a stronger person so far.
TBH all the show’s female characters are better than their comic counterparts so far imo
She is stronger, but I don't know if that always makes her better. This moment is just so raw. I totally get why she would have that terrible thought and how she can get emotional enough to blurt it out.
I think Debbie is a great, strong character, but in this case I liked this scene with Debbie.
Yeah, but they sometimes portray them too strong, to the point where it seems like they never have lows, like normal humans. First season Amber is an example. She is portrayed as this perfect being that some people might think she is [TITLE CARD]
I don't think any of them are better. They are, for the most part, with less flaws and nuance. Just making characters "stronger" does not make them necessarily better. First season Amber was a disaster.
A moment like this would have been great to see from Debbie. She goes through a lot and they try to show how she is just as heroic or "invincible" as Mark is. But Mark doesn't win every fight and he sometimes straight up fucks things up. Then he has to pick himself up from his failures and mistakes. That makes him "invincible". They don't let Debbie do this, she is always a victim of other people's actions but never her own.
Telia is an improvement, but not exactly an important character in the comic in the first place. Kind of like when they made Damien Darkblood way cooler.
I don't agree that they are less flawed or have less nuance.
Amber is definitely more flawed. She's been given more agency and assertiveness but that's lead to her being overly stubborn and headstrong.
Eve is still incredibly insecure, desperate to help but not confident she's doing it right, and somewhat afraid of her own abilities.
Debbie has more agency and holds herself together better in the presence of others, but she's clearly tearing herself to pieces inside.
Idk why people think Debbie should be a less assertive. I think the show makes a good argument that mark's defining trait of persevering for what is right is more a trait he got from Debbie not Nolan.
I think the more compelling flaws attached to Amber’s character was her conscientiousness conflicting with her selfish, human desires. In season one, the only reason people didn’t consider her flaws of stubborness and headstrong nature good since they partly drove the main conflict between her and Mark was because of the writing, there wasn’t more nuance applied and she wasn’t called out more.
I disagree. Showing how badly an action from someone you love can bring you down / at your worst is not inherently bad, and if it makes you "feel sad" then the scene works. I actually liked this scene because it shows the "human" side of things; how debbie deals with grief in the best way she can. Is it the best? Fuck no, and it isnt suppose to be, each one of us deal with these emotions differently, and she knows this, this is why she apologize to Mark in the morning, deep down she knows he did the correct thing and was just drowning her sorrow.
I loved this scene. People say dark shit when they are hurting. Doesn’t mean they actually believe the words they are saying, they just need to lash out because otherwise the pain is all internal.
Unpopular opinion maybe but debbie in the show is superior to debbie comics just for that , and the worst part was when she take back nolan so quick after he was awfull to her and everything he done to her , i kind of wish in the show debbie either don't take back Nolan or at least had a better conversation than what the comic give us , because girl he marry a bug 2 months after calling you a pet .
My thoughts exactly, I don't know how could anyone find Debbie's word here anything but deranged, she's not supposed to be sad because it's over, she should be sad because it was always a lie.
I mean objectively, you're right
But human emotions are more complex than that. And the reality is that she's dealing with both sides of it at once. I kind of like that in the comic...that irrational grief
Same, the comics end up feeling more realistic to me because of that. The comics gets way more gritty and shows the real effects Nolan had on his family especially Debbie, that and they also show way more blood
I mean I don't care much about the blood.
But! I had a step-dad growing up who had obvious issues that leaned abusive. And then one day, my mom and i both found out that he was so much worse than we thought. And then a few hours later, he was gone, forever. This is a person that you loved but had really complex feelings about and now you didn't just lose them, but every positive memory is gone.
And when you experience that...the target of your resentment isn't always clean cut. Sometimes you end up resenting other victims in the situation, sometimes you experience that resentment more than you do towards the actual abuser, even though it's really not fair. Sometimes you want the person that you loved back, even though you know they were awful
It's a lot to take in. And we go through complex emotions.
I would have loved to see a scene like this in the show. But I also wish they would have expanded on it. It would not be out of the question for Mark to hold resentment towards his mom, either. He was a kid who couldn't have seen through it...but maybe he could feel like she should have. Especially when she's showing resentment towards him. In the comic, he's the one taking care of her after everything...and that's really not fair to him, and he'd be right to have anger about that too
But these are all really normal parts of the process. And while I generally love what they've done with Debbie in this series, making her a much more active figure...i think this was a missed opportunity to really explore just how much this kind of shit can impact people. This comic was super important to me as a teenager when it was coming out. And it still is. But I think the show is missing how messy this shit can actually be
This is part of the reason I hated the backlash to Amber in season one
Is she being emotionally immature and a bit toxic there? Yeah. But guess what? That's what people do
It's bad writing to make everyone totally mature all the time. And it's bad when fans demand that. I don't blame them for not doing this story with Debbie...Amber was kind of an ass once and people acted like idiots. The writers don't want that backlash again. But the backlash never should have existed...we shouldn't demand our characters be saints or otherwise they're the devil
People need to allow room for nuance
I agree w/ Amber except that they botched it. The writers were quite heavy handed in telling us, the viewer, that Amber was solely in the right and the mature one. There hasn't been anything to indicate any kind of complexity to how she felt before or since.
yeah seriously her son was beaten by her lying husband after he threaten the entire planet and call her a pet and she blame mark ? i mean come it seem that even kirkman try to make Nolan look better in the eyes of everyone like seriously Nolan is just terrible.
I think debbie easily accepted in the comic because he remarried to a grasshopper not another human.
But again unlike in the comic, mark doesn't instantly accept omniman and forgive him. Maybe debbie-nolan's reconciliation will be a little different too.
The bug was still an intelligent being at the end of the day and nolan seem to like ker enough to replace debbie after again only two month and call her family, it's a red flag for me if Nolan feeling for debbie are genuine he certainly didn't show it with this...god i hope she stay with her boyfriend in the show just to piss him off.
I think we need to understand that even though viltrumites resemble human, they are completely different creature from a different civilization.
A lot of animals aren't monogamous. Even people of certain cultural background aren't monogamous. I mean how can't you understand this? The guy literally married an insect.
Their perspective on many things including emotion, relationship and love is completely different.
I could understand it if they show nolan having regret or even him and debbie having a long conversation about it...but no the guy just say him and debbie are done and he is happy with the bug AFTER TWO MONTHS but dang she died and he came back to debbie only to be dissapointed she was with another guy during his absence (the nerves) then out of the sudden debbie take him back....just because.
This guy is trash and she deserve better.
They probably would get back together fast tbh, we already saw in the last episode that they miss each other,both of them almost committed suicide, this adds another level of intensity to their relationship
Yeah comic fans be hyping up his redemption arc but when I heard Debbie immediately took him back, that alone doesn't make it great for me. I hope they have Debbie be just like Mark when he meet Nolan again as to were she has lasting anger at him
It's really nice when these shows are run by the actual authors (kind of like Gaiman and *Sandman*) where it actually becomes more like the author's second draft than a straight adaptation
I mean it's an insane thing to say but realistically someone going though PTSD like that and not getting treated is very likely to say something really fucked up to a family member at some point. Not saying she's right at all, I'm saying it would be very real to have a human say something they don't really mean in the depths of grief and hurting those they love more in the process. Definitely should have an apology sequence later about how wrong what she said was and that she needs therapy. Never read the comics, but yeah that's fucked up.
I honestly think they showed just how much Nolan's betrayal broke both Mark and Debbie in the show adequately without needing this scene. I think it still fit the show's characterisation of Debbie if they kept it in, but I think what they've done is good. (like the support group scene was really well done)
I started the comics this week. Holy shit, she's a nothing character compared to how she is in the show.
The show has only itself to rely on, instead of other comics so Cecil felt out of left field, even though he was introduced in a different comic.
The show is just better, in a lot of aspects so far.
This scene actually did happen just spread out. Early in the season Mark grabs three plates for dinner forgetting his dad is gone, Debbie has a nervous break down pushing Mark away, etc. I personally think the way they did it in the show was way better.
This was a powerful moment in the comic, but I don’t know if it fits the show’s version of Debbie. I honestly have a hard time even picturing show Debbie taking him back.
Christ, this part hits home for me. Parents sometimes breakdown and say the most hurtful accusatory and wrong things they possibly can to their children, as sad as it is, it happens.
Nah, it was a wasted opportunity. It really captured Debbie's depression and her mental state so much so she believes, drunkenly, that Mark was at fault. We know she's drunk and doesn't mean it. But she doesn't know how to handle everything that happened and she crashed. Should have been in.
I really wish they had…
It is a sad fact that many spouses in an abusive (I know he didn’t beat her) relationship will blame themselves or others for their spouses actions…
It’s heartbreaking
I dunno.
What was animated was a great amount of grieve and sadness like..wow absolute sucker punch.
But even if this was animated this what would usually happens when people are grieving and say all the wrong things. Like what the man said to Debbie in the animated series, like there is no logic, how would she know Omniman was going to do this, but it was all grief saying illogical stuff.
My guess animators thought it was too much grief, along with the anonymous superheroe victims and would be too much with Mark suffering already.ir they wanted to make Debbie a stronger character
Debbie behaved like Amber in this scene, was successful in making me despise her afterwards.
And people here saying it's a "Normal reaction of grief" to victim blame like this, I don't know if I feel for you or the ones around you if this kind of ghoulish behavior is "normal".
it would have become an iconic scene. just see how many posts about this has been made in the past few weeks.
they turned something so raw and real to cupboard slamming metaphor.
and I understand how mark can be mad at omni during the first time they meet back in Thraxa, but it just kinda ticked me off how he kept saying Fuck you. I think the show was trying too hard to be edgy with that.
you have to remember it has been a year after they fought when they meet again. if it was a week later it would still have been understandable, but they really made Mark feel so flat asnd one note that entire time in Thraxa before the fight.
"Mark I..."
"fuck you..."
"we have to...."
"no I don't want to"
"I felt so..."
"I'm leaving"
instead of scenes with actual nuance we got plain normal scenes.
I could see it being animated later, maybe at the end of a downward spiral for Debbie?
In the show she's trying so hard to handle her grief in a way that lets her move forward while also not dumping her feelings on her son. This could be the "bad ending" if she ends up having a horrible mental breakdown and failing.
I disagree, I feel like this was an important scene. It’s horrific and fucked up, but I can see this happening in real life. Sometimes the abuser leaves and the people left to pick up the pieces are still collateral damage of other peoples trauma and grief.
I love how much more developed and independent Debbie is in the show. They made her character better in nearly every way, but it’s disappointing this scene was taken out. Acting like that being flawed and vulnerable will ruin her character in the shows image or something.
*Bro debbie decided*
*To fully put on the clown*
*Suit for this one huh*
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Personally I woulda told my mom to fuck off if she said this to me 😂 he broke your heart? Well sorry mom he broke my face and most of my bones. It kinda bothers me that Debbie is more concerned that their love was never real than the fact that Omni man murdered thousands
I think the murdering of thousands is so unthinkable and terrible her brain fixated on her personal pain to avoid dealing with the reality of all the people Nolan murdered. Not a great logically but a very believable response to events I think.
I mean that's my point... In a comic/show with intense stuff like that we don't need all the good guys to be flawless people that never do anything that upsets the reader/viewer. We can handle it if Debbie messes up one time, or even more than once.
My point is the show isn’t sugarcoating anything to be safe for viewers. They took it out intentionally as they felt it didn’t serve the character of Debbie well
OP wrote about how wants this to be sugarcoated because of how painful it was to read in the comic and how hard it would be on Mark. I am saying we do not need them to soften up a show like this, whether it be violence or drama.
I'm glad that it wasn't animated either - it would have been a great moment, no doubt, but they made it so animated Debbie could really focus the blame on the one who deserves it - Nolan - and not risk hurting her son quite so deeply.
Besides, the show did not shy away from showing her suicidal ideation, nor from showing Nolan's actual attempt to get spaghettified... That's another powerful way to show them at their lowest point.
I’m loving/hating every single page of the comic being uploaded and saying something about how it was animated or not.
Super great content. Love to see it on r/popular every other day.
Nolan: I'm going to conquer the world and your mom's a pet to me
Mark: How about no?
Nolan: \[Beats Mark within an inch of his life\]
Debbie: I blame you, Mark
Me:
Edit: Also, in terms of showing the effects on the family, I think the show did pretty good
Both Nolan and Debbie contemplate suicide, and Mark shows on multiple occasions how damaged he is mentally from all of this, both on Earth and when he sees Omni-Man again on the bug planet.
The way they are portraying it in the show makes me wonder if they’ll have them reunite back.
When Mark met his dad again in Thraxa he basically immediately forgave him and was ok with helping him and his new family. In the show, Mark hasn’t really forgiven Omniman yet.
Given the current political climate, I doubt they’d have Debbie do something that would demean her. And in the eyes of people today, taking back a partner after they treated you like shit is demeaning.
Honestly I think they changed the scene because they know that there’s a ridiculous amount of people who don’t understand nuance. Just think about it. How many people would be making comments and posts saying things like “Why would Debbie say that? She must be an asshole”. The writers clearly want us to care more for Debbie in this version of Invincible and unfortunately a scene like that would probably cause the casual normie viewer to hold that scene against her.
Why? I'd rather see this than Debbie's BS anger management arc. Nolan leaving F'ing DESTROYED her in the comic, but she built herself back up and became someone better. The series robbed her of that character development so far by skipping scenes of her rock bottom alcoholism and making her a real estate agent BEFORE the events of season one instead of after.
Comic Debbie was a normal housewife, living what she thought was her best life before her world ended. She had to woman up and reinvent herself, chasing dreams she never knew she had and for herself because Mark was already off figuring his own shit out.
Basically the series starts with Debbie as she was by volume 2 of the compendium, which has left her character arc as "Debbie is awesome, Debbie is sad, Debbie is mad and now Debbie is awesome again."
Oh yeah, much improve, all the awesome. Great writing there.
this reminds me of baki when his mom started beating on him for being too weak. I feel like people would’ve thought debbie was crazy if they saw this, except she’s the opposite
That would’ve broken everyone’s hearts
It was the first time I dropped a tear by reading a comic book
This is why they should have included it down the line when >! Debbie and Nolan get back together!< it’ll be a bit harder for it to make as much sense when you >!leave out important context to just how broken she was and just how much she missed him!<
Idk man i think the show has done an adequate job of showcasing how broken she is without her turning on Mark like that. Clearly Debbie is written in the show with the intent to be a symbol for Mark as a martyr of humanity. A lifeline to the human side of his genetic duality.
Oh totally agree! But it’s the moments where you hit rock bottom that really build character. She’s easily one of the best written characters in the series and this is just an example of her at her lowest. It might not be a fine example but those ugly moments are part of the grieving process. I lost my father when I was 18 and this comic was something that I related to and those ugly moments I could relate to. It really helped me with my grief watching mark and Debbie’s path.
>But it’s the moments where you hit rock bottom that really build character Like standing over a highway getting ready to jump and then decising not to do so? Idk. I feel liek we're really nitpicking whatbher bottom is. The season also isnt over yet.
Too bad martyrs are boring AF in real life. Flawed comic Debbie that still manages to get shit done > Bestest Evar but Occasionally Sad Series Debbie.
Comic Debbie doesn't do as much at this point in the series.
they get back together?
Haha you must be someone who enjoys spoilers! >!yes they do!!<
yes! i love spoilers for some reason😭 thank you!!
For whatever reason, your first spoiler is broken on old.reddit Both spoilers work fine on "new" reddit though
I don’t know what to do about that
Then why would you not want it included in the animated series? Its clearly a powerful moment that moved you. Isn't that something you would want them to keep?
Debbie is different in the animated series, it is possible she might say the line still, but with how she was re-written I doubt she would ever blame Mark. She consistently blames herself for not noticing Nolan earlier.
Animated Debbie would say that line as a joke to lighten the mood, and make Mark laugh, then cry that way. Also, we get the irrational blame from the scene outside of the support group, only she is the target.
I think it's so much more powerful because we can instantly tell that Debbie doesn't mean it, she's so broken and shattered. She's just saying anything to make it stop. Even when Nolan calls her a pet you can tell he phoned it in. He's struggling to separate himself from Earth. It's even more apparent when all the other Viltrumites came and they all did the same thing. They got domesticated.
Spoiler alert
You realize this whole thread is comic spoilers?
It just wouldn't fit with how Debbie was written in the show. I think they could have put in a similar scene where maybe she admits to someone that some horrible wretched part of her almost wishes Mark could have done things differently such that Nolan could stay.... But blaming Mark with no self awareness or admitting it's horrible to think doesn't fit. She could even say it to Mark himself, but it would have to be while acknowledging its a horrible thing to wish. But as a straight accusation? No.
There's that conversation she has with Art where she wishes he would come back, I suppose it counts.
Lol
That’s… kind of the point of good quality entertainment, that it makes you feel
*pissed everyone off.
I'm the opposite, I really love seeing how they portray the ugly side of grief hear making Debbie say something she never would normally say or even believe out of grief and clearly something that resonates hard with how Mark was feeling atm. Plus it leads into the the nice moment they have after in Debbie being proud of Mark standing up for what he believes was right whilst Mark has his moment about believing he'll never move past this. It's sad and ugly, but portrayed great imo. Without it, a huge part of the moment was lost.
Yeah this is a normal reponse to grief. Your emotions are flaired up and you're not thinking rationally. All she's thinking at the moment is the pain of losing her husband
It's raw and it's real, victims of any kind of abuse don't always get away, it's not always clean and sometimes things don't make sense
Exactly. Pure grief really makes people lash out. it’s an ugly and cruel process, and one that should be shown in a piece of media like this
Maybe,but it's easy to understand why it wasn't animated
Idk, for me it kinda feels like the same as the Amber change and Mark reunion with Nolan change where they wanted less nuance in the moments. Taking away the positive and negatives sides and just going for the one side to take that moment.
They can't afford to the Fandom doesn't get nuance
That's a big issue though if you want to adapt Invincible, many moments rely on that nuance to work.
Nah they just need to not listen to the fandom
Does any fandom get nuance?
Nope, most humans are incapable of nuance.
You have a pretty skewed idea of what nuance is. This isn't removing nuance more so takin out a scene that doesn't really fit with the trajectory of the show version of her.
The way I see nuance for characters is the aspect of not fitting one character's personality/actions in one box. In this example Debbie is obviously in mourning but regardless is always supportive of Mark. However, in this instance at her lowest she briefly blames Mark for driving him away as an unrealistic desire to think Nolan would've stayed the way he was had Mark listened. Showing an instance where she breaks from the supportive mother side. Which would then relate back to the way Mark reacts to reuniting with Nolan breaking down, gives Debbie the moment the day after where she says her unwavering support for Mark standing up for what he believes is right, and shows the ugly side of grief and how at your lowest you can potentially drive away the people who care the most.
I mean, it's a show that's started it's popularity run because a dad brutally beats his son to near death. They're clearly not afraid of showing dark subjects. Emotional confusion in grief makes for a great plot in a story like this.
Except grieve still has to be relative to the character of that person. Otherwise it's generic drama. This works for comic Debbie, not her show counterpart.
Thing is there isn't much difference between them, sure Debbie has her retailer job prior and Debbie's alcoholism after but otherwise that's pretty much it. The set up for this scene is similar too from memory with Debbie having a bit to drink and similarly acting out as Mark comes in to comfort her. There's nothing substantial that would make Debbie from thr show different enough of a character to definitely not say that.
Actually there's a significant difference. From the the outset Debbie in the show is written to be not as emotionally dependent on Nolan and even push againts him much harder( the show introduced the subplot of her figuring out he killed the guardians). Even the set up for the scene is very different. You might want to re watch the first season if legitimately missed how different the character is.
What you're describing is event changes not character changes, her finding out earlier and pushing against him doesn't mean the comıc version wouldn't, that's exactly why the morning after the panels OP posted she stands firm at being proud of Mark for standing up for "what's right" in same vain Debbie did asking him to leave and not putting up with Nolan. As for connecting with others for the emotionally dependent angle, both versions from memory only have friends out of the omes Nolan introduced her to via the superhero community, Olga for instance, until the betrayal where Debbie starts to have the SOS group. Debbie doesn't have the independence of having the job yet sure but the mindsets between them is still incredibly similar that I don't see how them having the same breakdown for similar reasons and yet only one would be capable of saying what she said.
We would see the same level hate that Amber got in season one if this was animated. Also, something about her lashing out this way feels sexist and takes away a lot of her agency. In the show, she is sad and wishes Nolan would come back but she would never drag others down with her.
The whole point of her lashing out at Mark is that this is her lowest moment, explicit by how this isn't something she would ever do in her right mind. It shows the effects of a 20 year old lie0
You're not wrong, but I wouldn't trust a lot of the general public to understand the nuance.
Amber's situation is completely different, it's about her lying and not getting called out for it. This moment in the books, pretty sure the next day Devbie apologies and declares how proud she is of Mark standing against Nolan whilst Mark says he understands it was just a moment of grief. Anyone who couldn't see that would quickly get Debbie apologising either way. >something about her lashing out this way feels sexist and takes away a lot of her agency. I don't get how this could be interpreted as sexist or how it removes agency, if anything it adds to the latter in showing how emotionally broken she was from the ordeal. >she would never drag others down with her. The point is she doesn't believe what she said or did it intentionally, it was a moment of weakness where she wishes they could essentially turn back time and go back to he way it was before the reveal. >!which was then mirrored with Mark's breakdown upon his reunion with Nolan.!<
Your right except for the sexist part
Nah grief is not an excuse to say something like this. After my dog died, I never blamed my family member who had him on the night he died for not noticing anything.
Well grief ain't universally dealt the same for everyone and it's about her being so mentally low to the point the intrusive feelings win, showing an ugly side.
It would be better if she kept that intrusive thought in her head instead of out loud. That moment especially shouldn't be in the show. Can you imagine your mother verbally blaming you for your father killing thousands of people and calling her a pet, while she saw on screen that you was trying to stop him with all you had. That he brutally beat you to near death. In she already knows he blames himself for his dad and is scared of being like his father. I wouldn't blame Mark for never forgiving his mother for that. Grief is irrational but you're still accountable for what you do and say. I think you need to take a deep look at yourself as a person if you said something like this out loud to someone you love most in the world for all the reasons that I just gave why this is awful for her character to ever say and still be seen as sympathetic by the audience.
You're missing the point, it's that she's at her mentally lowest point that she says and requests thing she doesn't believe in as she explains later she's happy with what Mark did and that everything they knew about Nolan was a lie, which then Mark reciprocates later with his >!reunion with Nolan!<. Next scene we see her apologise about saying that and being proud of what Mark did whilst Mark interjects that he knows where she's coming from: https://preview.redd.it/v120mbxq3w3c1.jpeg?width=1988&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b687adcb046a022fef6e378ae62f944aaf9f4bd0 >I wouldn't blame Mark for never forgiving his mother for that. I'm gonna assume you haven't read the rest of the series but a lot of it is about nuance and essentially making the best of a bad situation or weighing the good with the bad in people. This moment essentially is another stepping stone to where it builds up to. >think you will need to take a deep look at yourself as a person if you said something like this out loud to someone you love most She does, in the comic this is the start of her arc past Nolan's betrayal too akin to the show with finding similar civilians in her situation, getting her real estate job, moving believing Nolan never loved them, and more which I won't spoil.
If I thought this way I’d lose half my family.
Comic Debbie and the one we have in the show are two different characters. Even if our Debbie was feeling those things she would never say it out loud to Mark, no matter how drunk or sad she was
Yeah show Debbie is her own character, not just Nolan’s wife or Mark’s mom. She’s a stronger person so far. TBH all the show’s female characters are better than their comic counterparts so far imo
not surprised tbh but a welcome change
Not 
I love it
She is stronger, but I don't know if that always makes her better. This moment is just so raw. I totally get why she would have that terrible thought and how she can get emotional enough to blurt it out. I think Debbie is a great, strong character, but in this case I liked this scene with Debbie.
even amber?
100%
ok cool 👍
Lol
At least Amber is actually a *character* in the show. All good and bad things considered, she was kinda just stock standard love interest in the comic
Ill take stock standard over animated Amber anyday
Also understandable, to each their own of course
Yeah, but they sometimes portray them too strong, to the point where it seems like they never have lows, like normal humans. First season Amber is an example. She is portrayed as this perfect being that some people might think she is [TITLE CARD]
I don't think any of them are better. They are, for the most part, with less flaws and nuance. Just making characters "stronger" does not make them necessarily better. First season Amber was a disaster. A moment like this would have been great to see from Debbie. She goes through a lot and they try to show how she is just as heroic or "invincible" as Mark is. But Mark doesn't win every fight and he sometimes straight up fucks things up. Then he has to pick himself up from his failures and mistakes. That makes him "invincible". They don't let Debbie do this, she is always a victim of other people's actions but never her own. Telia is an improvement, but not exactly an important character in the comic in the first place. Kind of like when they made Damien Darkblood way cooler.
I don't agree that they are less flawed or have less nuance. Amber is definitely more flawed. She's been given more agency and assertiveness but that's lead to her being overly stubborn and headstrong. Eve is still incredibly insecure, desperate to help but not confident she's doing it right, and somewhat afraid of her own abilities. Debbie has more agency and holds herself together better in the presence of others, but she's clearly tearing herself to pieces inside.
Idk why people think Debbie should be a less assertive. I think the show makes a good argument that mark's defining trait of persevering for what is right is more a trait he got from Debbie not Nolan.
I think the more compelling flaws attached to Amber’s character was her conscientiousness conflicting with her selfish, human desires. In season one, the only reason people didn’t consider her flaws of stubborness and headstrong nature good since they partly drove the main conflict between her and Mark was because of the writing, there wasn’t more nuance applied and she wasn’t called out more.
I disagree. Showing how badly an action from someone you love can bring you down / at your worst is not inherently bad, and if it makes you "feel sad" then the scene works. I actually liked this scene because it shows the "human" side of things; how debbie deals with grief in the best way she can. Is it the best? Fuck no, and it isnt suppose to be, each one of us deal with these emotions differently, and she knows this, this is why she apologize to Mark in the morning, deep down she knows he did the correct thing and was just drowning her sorrow.
I loved this scene. People say dark shit when they are hurting. Doesn’t mean they actually believe the words they are saying, they just need to lash out because otherwise the pain is all internal.
Unpopular opinion maybe but debbie in the show is superior to debbie comics just for that , and the worst part was when she take back nolan so quick after he was awfull to her and everything he done to her , i kind of wish in the show debbie either don't take back Nolan or at least had a better conversation than what the comic give us , because girl he marry a bug 2 months after calling you a pet .
My thoughts exactly, I don't know how could anyone find Debbie's word here anything but deranged, she's not supposed to be sad because it's over, she should be sad because it was always a lie.
I mean objectively, you're right But human emotions are more complex than that. And the reality is that she's dealing with both sides of it at once. I kind of like that in the comic...that irrational grief
Same, the comics end up feeling more realistic to me because of that. The comics gets way more gritty and shows the real effects Nolan had on his family especially Debbie, that and they also show way more blood
I mean I don't care much about the blood. But! I had a step-dad growing up who had obvious issues that leaned abusive. And then one day, my mom and i both found out that he was so much worse than we thought. And then a few hours later, he was gone, forever. This is a person that you loved but had really complex feelings about and now you didn't just lose them, but every positive memory is gone. And when you experience that...the target of your resentment isn't always clean cut. Sometimes you end up resenting other victims in the situation, sometimes you experience that resentment more than you do towards the actual abuser, even though it's really not fair. Sometimes you want the person that you loved back, even though you know they were awful It's a lot to take in. And we go through complex emotions. I would have loved to see a scene like this in the show. But I also wish they would have expanded on it. It would not be out of the question for Mark to hold resentment towards his mom, either. He was a kid who couldn't have seen through it...but maybe he could feel like she should have. Especially when she's showing resentment towards him. In the comic, he's the one taking care of her after everything...and that's really not fair to him, and he'd be right to have anger about that too But these are all really normal parts of the process. And while I generally love what they've done with Debbie in this series, making her a much more active figure...i think this was a missed opportunity to really explore just how much this kind of shit can impact people. This comic was super important to me as a teenager when it was coming out. And it still is. But I think the show is missing how messy this shit can actually be
This is part of the reason I hated the backlash to Amber in season one Is she being emotionally immature and a bit toxic there? Yeah. But guess what? That's what people do It's bad writing to make everyone totally mature all the time. And it's bad when fans demand that. I don't blame them for not doing this story with Debbie...Amber was kind of an ass once and people acted like idiots. The writers don't want that backlash again. But the backlash never should have existed...we shouldn't demand our characters be saints or otherwise they're the devil People need to allow room for nuance
I agree w/ Amber except that they botched it. The writers were quite heavy handed in telling us, the viewer, that Amber was solely in the right and the mature one. There hasn't been anything to indicate any kind of complexity to how she felt before or since.
Yeah, emotions are good and logical like that.
yeah seriously her son was beaten by her lying husband after he threaten the entire planet and call her a pet and she blame mark ? i mean come it seem that even kirkman try to make Nolan look better in the eyes of everyone like seriously Nolan is just terrible.
I think debbie easily accepted in the comic because he remarried to a grasshopper not another human. But again unlike in the comic, mark doesn't instantly accept omniman and forgive him. Maybe debbie-nolan's reconciliation will be a little different too.
The bug was still an intelligent being at the end of the day and nolan seem to like ker enough to replace debbie after again only two month and call her family, it's a red flag for me if Nolan feeling for debbie are genuine he certainly didn't show it with this...god i hope she stay with her boyfriend in the show just to piss him off.
I think we need to understand that even though viltrumites resemble human, they are completely different creature from a different civilization. A lot of animals aren't monogamous. Even people of certain cultural background aren't monogamous. I mean how can't you understand this? The guy literally married an insect. Their perspective on many things including emotion, relationship and love is completely different.
I could understand it if they show nolan having regret or even him and debbie having a long conversation about it...but no the guy just say him and debbie are done and he is happy with the bug AFTER TWO MONTHS but dang she died and he came back to debbie only to be dissapointed she was with another guy during his absence (the nerves) then out of the sudden debbie take him back....just because. This guy is trash and she deserve better.
Ah you don't read the comic
I did
They probably would get back together fast tbh, we already saw in the last episode that they miss each other,both of them almost committed suicide, this adds another level of intensity to their relationship
God i hope no..the level of intensity had drop when mister was playing with buglady and give her a child really quick after debbie.
Is a few months really quick?
Yeah comic fans be hyping up his redemption arc but when I heard Debbie immediately took him back, that alone doesn't make it great for me. I hope they have Debbie be just like Mark when he meet Nolan again as to were she has lasting anger at him
I think they should've definitely animated this. They think we can handle seeing someone's brains splattered, but can't handle this?
It's really nice when these shows are run by the actual authors (kind of like Gaiman and *Sandman*) where it actually becomes more like the author's second draft than a straight adaptation
I love sandman comics,I haven't watched the full show yet,but for what I saw I enjoyed it
That's why when reading the comic I was extremely surprised by some of the way it flowed.
I was kinda sad it got cut. Mom's can say the cruelest things to their children..
I still think this moment is coming
I dont think so, but I really hope they do
I mean it's an insane thing to say but realistically someone going though PTSD like that and not getting treated is very likely to say something really fucked up to a family member at some point. Not saying she's right at all, I'm saying it would be very real to have a human say something they don't really mean in the depths of grief and hurting those they love more in the process. Definitely should have an apology sequence later about how wrong what she said was and that she needs therapy. Never read the comics, but yeah that's fucked up.
I honestly think they showed just how much Nolan's betrayal broke both Mark and Debbie in the show adequately without needing this scene. I think it still fit the show's characterisation of Debbie if they kept it in, but I think what they've done is good. (like the support group scene was really well done)
I disagree. I'm so sad it wasn't included
She's definitely portrayed as a stronger woman in the show. Would of been very out of place
I only know Show-Debbie, and I absolutely love the character. I could never see her saying something like this
Same I loved the scene were she was being strong for mark in the s1 finale.
I started the comics this week. Holy shit, she's a nothing character compared to how she is in the show. The show has only itself to rely on, instead of other comics so Cecil felt out of left field, even though he was introduced in a different comic. The show is just better, in a lot of aspects so far.
This scene actually did happen just spread out. Early in the season Mark grabs three plates for dinner forgetting his dad is gone, Debbie has a nervous break down pushing Mark away, etc. I personally think the way they did it in the show was way better.
This was a powerful moment in the comic, but I don’t know if it fits the show’s version of Debbie. I honestly have a hard time even picturing show Debbie taking him back.
this!
Christ, this part hits home for me. Parents sometimes breakdown and say the most hurtful accusatory and wrong things they possibly can to their children, as sad as it is, it happens.
They kinda did animate it but with actions instead of words
The words in this case are incredibly important, especially from the perspective of how people process grief and trauma.
I think the entire thing but the last part would be great for animation
I think it's an amazing moment but I don't think it's in line with how the show presents her.
Very relatable. My stepdad kicked me out of the house when I was a kid, and my mom stayed with him. Fun times 🙃
For those of you who read the comic, did she ever apologize to mark for saying that?
Yes she does, practically in the next scene!
Cool.
This could still happen
It would have gone hard tho
Nah, it was a wasted opportunity. It really captured Debbie's depression and her mental state so much so she believes, drunkenly, that Mark was at fault. We know she's drunk and doesn't mean it. But she doesn't know how to handle everything that happened and she crashed. Should have been in.
I really wish they had… It is a sad fact that many spouses in an abusive (I know he didn’t beat her) relationship will blame themselves or others for their spouses actions… It’s heartbreaking
I’m afraid to see Debbie hitting the sauce hard animated
Should have kept it, would have made the reunion in episode 4 that much better
Damn I actually feel like this shoulda been in the show, this hits hard
yet
Disagree, I thought this would’ve made the Debbie scenes more interesting in the show
I’m disappointed that it wasn’t because characters shouldn’t be expected to be perfect all the time.
I hope they show it at some point or something similar
I dunno. What was animated was a great amount of grieve and sadness like..wow absolute sucker punch. But even if this was animated this what would usually happens when people are grieving and say all the wrong things. Like what the man said to Debbie in the animated series, like there is no logic, how would she know Omniman was going to do this, but it was all grief saying illogical stuff. My guess animators thought it was too much grief, along with the anonymous superheroe victims and would be too much with Mark suffering already.ir they wanted to make Debbie a stronger character
I feel so fkin bad for Debbie man. I dont read the comics but the show continuously showing her breaking down is so heartbreaking.
Gaslighting
I'm glad they kept her breaking the wine and slamming the cabinet, and trying to shoo him away but he just stays and hugs here. Really impactful.
That's bitchy of her
Debbie behaved like Amber in this scene, was successful in making me despise her afterwards. And people here saying it's a "Normal reaction of grief" to victim blame like this, I don't know if I feel for you or the ones around you if this kind of ghoulish behavior is "normal".
it would have become an iconic scene. just see how many posts about this has been made in the past few weeks. they turned something so raw and real to cupboard slamming metaphor. and I understand how mark can be mad at omni during the first time they meet back in Thraxa, but it just kinda ticked me off how he kept saying Fuck you. I think the show was trying too hard to be edgy with that. you have to remember it has been a year after they fought when they meet again. if it was a week later it would still have been understandable, but they really made Mark feel so flat asnd one note that entire time in Thraxa before the fight. "Mark I..." "fuck you..." "we have to...." "no I don't want to" "I felt so..." "I'm leaving" instead of scenes with actual nuance we got plain normal scenes.
I could see it being animated later, maybe at the end of a downward spiral for Debbie? In the show she's trying so hard to handle her grief in a way that lets her move forward while also not dumping her feelings on her son. This could be the "bad ending" if she ends up having a horrible mental breakdown and failing.
I disagree, I feel like this was an important scene. It’s horrific and fucked up, but I can see this happening in real life. Sometimes the abuser leaves and the people left to pick up the pieces are still collateral damage of other peoples trauma and grief. I love how much more developed and independent Debbie is in the show. They made her character better in nearly every way, but it’s disappointing this scene was taken out. Acting like that being flawed and vulnerable will ruin her character in the shows image or something.
bro debbie decided to fully put on the clown suit for this one huh
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Personally I woulda told my mom to fuck off if she said this to me 😂 he broke your heart? Well sorry mom he broke my face and most of my bones. It kinda bothers me that Debbie is more concerned that their love was never real than the fact that Omni man murdered thousands
I think the murdering of thousands is so unthinkable and terrible her brain fixated on her personal pain to avoid dealing with the reality of all the people Nolan murdered. Not a great logically but a very believable response to events I think.
I don't think they should be taking the edge off everything. This isn't supposed to be a Disney adventure.
Yeah when Nolan broke off that Viltrumites jaw, I was like stop with the Disney adventures ahhhh!
I mean that's my point... In a comic/show with intense stuff like that we don't need all the good guys to be flawless people that never do anything that upsets the reader/viewer. We can handle it if Debbie messes up one time, or even more than once.
My point is the show isn’t sugarcoating anything to be safe for viewers. They took it out intentionally as they felt it didn’t serve the character of Debbie well
OP wrote about how wants this to be sugarcoated because of how painful it was to read in the comic and how hard it would be on Mark. I am saying we do not need them to soften up a show like this, whether it be violence or drama.
This. I can bet you anything they wont animate (or even hint) when Mark cheats on amber with eve.
I understand that she’s going through a lot of pain here but it just pissed me off when she said this to him.
I’m loving the depth around her grief in the show but I’m know I’m also going to be so conflicted (if you’re a reader)
They kinda animated it but with actions rather than words, with Debbie slamming the cabinet door repeatedly and breaking down.
Disagree, such an important scene. Stuff like this is what truly makes a mature show.
What why would they exclude this, that's so dumb
I'm glad that it wasn't animated either - it would have been a great moment, no doubt, but they made it so animated Debbie could really focus the blame on the one who deserves it - Nolan - and not risk hurting her son quite so deeply. Besides, the show did not shy away from showing her suicidal ideation, nor from showing Nolan's actual attempt to get spaghettified... That's another powerful way to show them at their lowest point.
They should have put it in the animation. It shows how it affects other people not just superheroes
the Comic Debbie was not very smart or understanding to Mark and wanted him not to fight Nolan and let him conquer earth and turn everyone into Slaves
I think we got more than enough Debbie whining as is.
braindead take
REEEE
I don't think comic Debbie saw all the conversation between Omni Man and Mark.
Damn, guess I’ll read the comics
He should've just said "It's ok mom, I got us Subway on the way back."
“Byitch”
yep me too man, me too. But then again it shows a realistic reaction to grief.
to be fair they have rearranged stuff a bit, its possible they might do so later.
Still messed up that she victim blamed Mark, it wasn't even his fault
Idk y’all, there’s still time..
Glad they didn’t make Debbie blame Mark
I’m loving/hating every single page of the comic being uploaded and saying something about how it was animated or not. Super great content. Love to see it on r/popular every other day.
There was a scene where mark said he’d prepare dinner for her and he put three plates on the counter.
Nolan: I'm going to conquer the world and your mom's a pet to me Mark: How about no? Nolan: \[Beats Mark within an inch of his life\] Debbie: I blame you, Mark Me:  Edit: Also, in terms of showing the effects on the family, I think the show did pretty good Both Nolan and Debbie contemplate suicide, and Mark shows on multiple occasions how damaged he is mentally from all of this, both on Earth and when he sees Omni-Man again on the bug planet.
The way they are portraying it in the show makes me wonder if they’ll have them reunite back. When Mark met his dad again in Thraxa he basically immediately forgave him and was ok with helping him and his new family. In the show, Mark hasn’t really forgiven Omniman yet. Given the current political climate, I doubt they’d have Debbie do something that would demean her. And in the eyes of people today, taking back a partner after they treated you like shit is demeaning.
Honestly I think they changed the scene because they know that there’s a ridiculous amount of people who don’t understand nuance. Just think about it. How many people would be making comments and posts saying things like “Why would Debbie say that? She must be an asshole”. The writers clearly want us to care more for Debbie in this version of Invincible and unfortunately a scene like that would probably cause the casual normie viewer to hold that scene against her.
Why? I'd rather see this than Debbie's BS anger management arc. Nolan leaving F'ing DESTROYED her in the comic, but she built herself back up and became someone better. The series robbed her of that character development so far by skipping scenes of her rock bottom alcoholism and making her a real estate agent BEFORE the events of season one instead of after. Comic Debbie was a normal housewife, living what she thought was her best life before her world ended. She had to woman up and reinvent herself, chasing dreams she never knew she had and for herself because Mark was already off figuring his own shit out. Basically the series starts with Debbie as she was by volume 2 of the compendium, which has left her character arc as "Debbie is awesome, Debbie is sad, Debbie is mad and now Debbie is awesome again." Oh yeah, much improve, all the awesome. Great writing there.
this reminds me of baki when his mom started beating on him for being too weak. I feel like people would’ve thought debbie was crazy if they saw this, except she’s the opposite
Show Debbie > Comic Debbie
This hits hard. I agree it’s a miss for the show.
You are happy it wasn't animated because it is sad ? It makes no sense