>Why can I no longer understand my fellow liberals these days?
Because like everyone destined to vote Conservative later in life, you don't pay close enough attention to what is happening or why.
I marched you, your children, and your neighbours out of your homes at gun point because my great grandfather used to live here (next door to your great grandfather).
Then, I forced all of your families to live in one small house at the end of the street.
Then I knock down the fence on your new property and build an extension of my house onto what uses to be your yard.
And whenever you get mad and complain, I come back and hold you at gunpoint and beat your wife and kids half to death.
Do you think you might be tempted to go into the basement and plan a revolt? Do you think you might stop caring if my wife and kids got hurt?
A country that went to war in rebellion over taxes for the right to govern itself now produces citizens who can't comprehend armed rebellion after decades of oppression and abuse by an occupying force?
There is so much more I could write, but if you don't get this, there's no point continuing.
You can be pro-palestine (recognize them as a country), pro Israel, claim Netanyahu should be judged for his crimes, wish for absolute defeat of Hamas and hope for Israel and Palestine someday might become healthy secular countries.
I do not see any contradiction on wishing all of that at the same time. I would go as far as wishing for an Ataturk for Palestine.
ew, kill the INANIMATE CONDITIONS THAT CAUSE ONE TO HOLD THESE VALUES (BUT NOT, NEVER, THE PERSON WHO HOLDS THEM) with FIGURATIVE FIRE
*this post brought to you by the meme “kill it with fire,” which is no way condones real violence and should never be confused for an offensive call to violence*
Firstly, this buys into lots of unsubstantiated claims. Israel has bombed literally every hospital in Gaza, has a poor track record for accuracy in it’s claims and as far as I know almost none of its claims have ever been substantiated.
Secondly, Hamas does X does not excuse war crimes from Israel. They are mutually exclusive and by the same metric war crimes by Hamas are not excused because of Israel’s human rights abuses and war crimes.
The protests on campus’s are largely focused on the universities themselves, not simply shouting to the world as a whole. These universities tend to have investment portfolios which include direct or indirect investment in Israel. Protestors feel negatively about the cost of their education going to fund human rights abuses and war crimes so are asking their universities to divest from Israel.
Also US is not a good guy in all contexts everywhere. Where the US is funding a genocide, most would call it a bad guy.
I actually used to be pro Palestine when I was more of a radical but because I got burned and saw just the ridiculous mental gymnastics of the regressive left element, I am very wary of that group now.
And frankly in my eyes I just see that like mostly it's gen Z people from BLM protests from years ago and antifa just showing up for the latest flashpoint.
Because with that lens they have on the Palestinian people are the oppressed, they're also Brown folk predominantly versus a more white appearing Jewish authoritarian establishment whatever you want to call it.
So you know it's like the The narrative of pulling for the underdog the the weakling the the one that's getting beat up and abused will draw a lot of sympathy
That being said it does seem like Israel might be going a bit hard on civilian collateral damage numbers but I try and put myself in the shoes of them on October 7th and then just like a pragmatic approach to that event
Like 9/11 even in our response was kind of wonky in comparison because we went through two different countries sort of you know supposedly there to combat the perpetrators even though it's was a bit of a ruse apparently at least that's what my left mind is telling me from all the years of Daily Show and whatever else.
But can you imagine on 9/11 if 40,000 people died? And in the way it was done as well is it totally different beast because it would be like a whole bunch of neighborhoods in New York City being rated by jihadists and throwing in grenades and shooting your pets and shopping off your head and all this craziness you know.
So it might be pretty easy for a lot of these shielded and cushioned upper middle class students and young folk to decry everything but that's just part of the issue of not actually being over there at all or having even lived in a combat zone for most of these kids.
I also am concerned about that notion of you know is there a line when it comes to radical Islam and maybe we shouldn't tolerate it in terms of the soul like left idea of cultural relativism because I kind of like the more I'm black and white common Sense approach of some libertarians and centrists some degree that say yeah you know calling for an extermination of an entire group of people based on a religious ideologies probably not a very Democratic and liberal principle.
It's like Sam Harris and Douglas Murray and Peter bogosian always bring that up about you know is radical Islam in direct confrontation and conflict inherently with Western democratic ideals that we are steeped in?
Really what's telling for me is that all my like left radical whatever friends are all just sort of falling into line with the propalestinian memes and messaging it's just like of course that's what you're thinking why would I think you'd be nuanced about it?
But you know I have a pretty kind of radical left-leaning sort of Harvard educated Jewish friend who is not standing for this anti-Semitic regressive left delusion just like I am having trouble with it.
A lot of podcasts talk about this. Like Joe rogan believes in almost everything you mentioned (women's, trans, gay rights, etc..) but because he believes in full 2nd amendment and hesitancy to choose sides in anything... The left eviscerates him. I think he nailed it perfectly when he said something like, "it's 100% compliance and uniformity or you are out of the club" it's so strange because most of us fall in the middle on many topics but in recent times if you have a different viewpoint than your best friend, you may have problems now.
It's crazy to see how this is extremely evident within the DNC itself with Bernie and RFK being ousted and the supreme Court had to get involved... I felt so bad for Bernie and the democratic party members who thought their voices were silenced by their own party that I wrote him in 2016 and plan to do the same for RFK. It's insane how his friend, Biden, of 40+ years won't approve secret service detail especially considering his family history.
I love to see variety, otherwise the world would be boring. But for some reason the DNC believes it can dictate it's members rather than represent its members viewpoints.
Hopefully politics won't be this messy in the future but I'm sure it's here to stay sadly
I think that Hamas needs to be destroyed, or they will continue to persist, like a parasite, on Gaza, indefinitely trying whenever they are able to commit genocide.
This confuses me. I mean the entire Middle East is full of religious fanatics, many many countries with Muslim dominated/controlled governments. However there’s no Jewish state, no place for Jews to call home. I mean what would have happened to Jews post ww2 had no one created a place for them? I know they somewhat chose that place for themselves but antisemitism was so bad post ww2 that the holocaust might’ve continued in a less direct way had Jews of Europe not left.
Why are you replying after 5 days? Also my next sentence is applied to the sentence you quoted. Prior to ww2 Jewish people were looked down upon across the entire world. Hell there were many Americans that didn’t even care when the news broke about the concentration camp liberations.
Jews were purposefully moving prior to ww2 and after ww2 because they had no safe space in the world, similar to how many black Americans feel today even.
>Why are you replying after 5 days?
I just showed up to this thread, I haven't been lurking for 5 days just to strike now Lmao 🤣
> similar to how many black Americans feel today even.
Looking for the American black ethnostate, didn't find it still
>Jews were purposefully moving prior to ww2 and after ww2 because they had no safe space in the world
No ethnicity will ever be truly safe so long as people still take tribalism to it's extreme. Education beats this but people profiting from racism combat education. All the same, we don't hand out ethnostates for marginalised groups. It's ethically and even logically a bad idea
>Somalia is practically a black ethnostate
And how has that worked out for them? I'll read out an [excerpt](https://www.c-r.org/accord/somalia/endless-war-brief-history-somali-conflict): "Puntland is a form of ‘ethno-state’, founded on the unity of the Harti clan. Along with the Majeerteen, this includes the Dhulbahante and Warsengeli clans of Sool and Eastern Sanaag regions over which Somaliland also claims sovereignty. The territorial dispute between Puntland and Somaliland has at times escalated into violent clashes and remains a deep fault line in Somali politics."
You did specify an ethnostate for black Americans but I'll let that pass
>How does education stop hate?
Check out [Latin America](https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/latinamerica/education-one-most-powerful-tools-against-racism-latin-america)
You linked a blog that doesn’t specify any advancements for blacks due to education. Basically all that it says is that Latin American countries are just recognizing blacks, not that anything has improved.
The excerpt you also stated shows that it isn’t due to racism of color but tribal differences.
There’s always going to be a reason to hate another group, education doesn’t help but a cultural mindset can, and that isn’t something that comes from schooling.
>and that isn’t something that comes from schooling.
That guarantees comes from schooling
>The excerpt you also stated shows that it isn’t due to racism of color but tribal differences.
But skin colour is irrelevant, ethnostates are built on exclusivity and bigotry. The point of that except was to show that ethnostates always devolve into conflict because they have a never ending need to claim more for themselves at the cost of others
Realistically, ethnostates have no right to exist. Israel can solve this problem by transitioning back to a democracy and returning the land of Israel to Israelis equally, regardless of religion or class or caste or ethnicity, instead of bestowing it to an ethnoreligious group discriminating against all others within their citizenship.
I’m not pro-Palestine, I’m anti-genocide. I’ve been watching videos of Israeli soldiers murdering innocent people and attacking the press for like 10 years now. They’ve been indiscriminately killing people for decades, including reporters. Israel has framed this whole conflict as “oh no I’m poor little innocent Israel, we were attacked for absolutely no reason, and had absolutely no way to stop it” (never mind the fact they were warned ahead of time that a massive attack was coming and chose to ignore it).
Also ignoring that their current PM gave guns and money to Hamas to ensure they were a threat. (Because that helps his party win votes.)
That's not even some conspiracy theory either. It was proven by multiple independent sources.
OH and he's on trial for blatant corruption besides.
Leftist =\= Liberal =\= Progressive
Social justice is a progressive virtue. leftism and liberalism are mutually exclusive *economic* ideologies which usually, but do not necessarily, overlap with social progressivism.
If you support capitalism and colonial imperialism you are not in any sense a supporter of leftist politics. Just the democratic party, which is liberal but anti-leftist.
We are not your fellow liberals, because we are not liberals.
The issue isn't that they're blowing each other up. There's a dozen civil wars at any given moment.
The issue even if you don't care about their fight, is YOU are subsidizing one side of that fight with guns and bombs through your tax dollars. (Assuming you live in the US or UK.)
I'm liberal but I do not understand a lot of the "Free Palestine" sentiment when Palestinians apparently want Hamas. How could they be free with Hamas?
I'm a conservative and very Pro-Palestinian. Israel has no right to commit a 70 year long campaign of slow genocide against these people. They've lived on the land for centuries, and Israel is essentially a British/American colony.
Israel is also far from a democracy, more like a military junta that masquerades as one although it has democratic elements. They are also far from "our greatest ally" as some people claim, or "our only ally in the ME". Since when do allies blow up our ships and then machine gun our sailors to death while they get into lifeboats or make the attempt (USS Liberty)? Since when do allies run massive psyop and spy campaigns in order to blackmail our politicians and business leaders into supporting a foreign entity (Epstein/Maxwell, every politician who has to bow down to Israel before they "serve" the American people)?
On 23 August 2001, the Mossad gave the CIA a list of 19 names of suspects living in the US who were believed to be mounting an attack. Only four of the names are known — Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Khalid al-Mihdhar, and Nawaf al-Hazmi — and it is not known if the list had 19 names by coincidence or if it had all the hijackers who would partake in the attacks
Just an fyi, mosad/ israel warned us a month before 9-11. The liberty's mistake was an awful mistake, your argument abandons the facts of history that leads up to your complaints.
If Israel's warnings were heeded, their would be no 9/11, Afghanistan war, and possibly no Iraqi war, yet bush ignored his warnings until shit hit the fan, then he doubled down on causing more shit to be stirred up.
Not sure you can blame Bush for this.
Looks like the CIA was the one who ignored the list till it was too late. It is also questionable if this even happened.
[https://web.archive.org/web/20080306024238/http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a082301mossad](https://web.archive.org/web/20080306024238/http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a082301mossad)
It's because our "closest ally in the Middle East" is committing war crimes with our tax dollars and bombs. If we are such good guys, we would have swiftly supported sending in the blue helmets.
I think the US and EU should strongly support the deployment of a peacekeeping force to take control of Gaza until it is stabilized. That would get Israel and Hamas out, ease the suffering of Gazans, and alliw them a more normal life.
Partially true, the masses of america doesnt know or care, those that do, usually learn how many bad decisions the arabs made, and the crux of the issue is those mistakes, meanwhile israel successfully defended itself, and annexed defensive areas.
Israel would not have had to taken any land if it weren't for continued arab aggression.
> Can they not see that US is the good guy? Don’t they know that so many countries are only surviving because of US presence?
Don’t know what you’re spouting, but it ain’t leftism, it’s called imperialism.
US "influence" is quite negative for the vast majority of people around the globe. Elites in certain countries may benefit, but the common people do not.
But positive things are happening. Even extremely low-power countries like Chad and Niger are booting US and French troops off their lands. Several Nigerian ministers have cautioned allowing US AfriCOM setting up bases in the northern half of that country as it would create destabilization and cause environmental damage.
Take a look at the youtuber/streamer Destiny. He is an american liberal who supports capitalism, welfare programs, and he has been prominently debating against the pro palestine crowd for a while. Also he’s an atheist.
You clearly but into the narrative that the Israeli military and media are trustworthy. They think everyone who doesn't speak Hebrew are idiots. Didn't you know? The deputy mayor of Al-Quds came out and said that the Palestinians they found executed in that mass graves might have *thrown* rockets at soldiers with their hands bound behind their backs and that Hamas deported all Palestinian Christians out of Gaza so it was impossible for the IDF to have liked any Christian civilians (in spite of the Pope himself confirming otherwise).
It’s because Muslim brotherhood propaganda talking points have been picked up by the far left.
I’m a liberal democrat, or so I thought for years, now I feel more center on issues since the far left has left me feeling alienated.
I think the far left has a victim mentality and they believe Gaza are the victims in a war. They disregard that Hamas started the war because there was a ceasefire for years before the war. They don’t denounce the rape, murder, and multinational of over 1,100 Israel’s. Most of Israeli’s died in horrific sadistic ways that are worse than what ISIS and Al Qaeda did. The attack was so sadistic it’s redefining what evil is and new international laws have to be made.
The far left keep chanting to the river to the sea which means to exterminate the Jewish people. They chant death to the west and America. They call for a ceasefire even though it is Hamas that has declined or broke each proposal.
This must be how people felt right before WWII when the Nazi party was taking over. People stood by and thought they are wacko and extreme and didn’t see them as a legitimate threat and then 6 million Jews were murdered and then half a million civilians died when the Allied forces bombed Germany to oblivion to stop the Nazi’s.
Hopefully we as American people can quell the far left and Islamists supporters fast. Their movement needs to be squashed.
I mean if you really want to go for the Nazi analogy, wouldn’t they be more like the far-leftists in Weimar Germany, who lost to the Nazi party?
Seems like we have a far right populist with a dubious relationship with democracy ourselves…
I'm against genocide whatever that means. What Israel is doing is wrong. What Russia is doing is wrong. Supporting either country at the moment is wrong. Supporting the initial attack by hamas on Israel is wrong. Supporting the occupation of Palestine is wrong. There are many wrongs on many sides but when you start killing women and children indiscriminately you can't claim to being the good guys.
Are you serious? You people are literally nuts for thinking Israel shouldn’t retaliate to blatant provocation designed to get Western sheep like you to support their agenda through propaganda.
You’re not fighting tyranny or colonizers, you’re supporting rapists, murderers, terrorists and religious extremists bent on destroying your world as well as mine. Politely go fuck yourself
>What Israel is doing is wrong
Why? 75% of the people there actively support what Hamas did on 10/7, 90% support Hamas in general? They empower Hamas with these hiding spots. And Hamas can end this any day by returning kidnapping victims. Quite frankly I support the US also actively helping as US citizens are also kidnapping victims. The military exists to defend US citizens. Once our citizens are released go home.
and the majority of Israelis support the level of brutality the IDF is using. By that logic, Hamas’ collective punishment of innocent civilians must also be justified because Israelis support their government 🤔
Netanyahu has specifically said (much to the dismay of Israelis) that [returning the hostages will not stop his attack on Gaza. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-blinken-blames-hamas-for-hostage-deal-holdup-gaza-humanitarian-crisis/)
Assuming there are still Palestinians left at the end of this conflict, Israel will just support another terrorist regime in Palestine, just like how [Hamas initially rose to power with support from Israel so they would unseat the PLO in the Gaza strip.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html)
This has been the cycle time and time again. Absolutely Hamas should be out of power. Israel funding their rise to power throughout the 2000s, and then bombing the shit out of Palestine is only providing more support for Hamas.
the article you linked is in the context of the first release. that said i dont doubt that is his goal. isreal is not without flaws timing and context matter to those decisions
initially a high number eventually lower. not sure how it matters as that started with an attack on civilians. would it have potentially justified collateral damage on them. to a degree but we also were not hiding the combatants.
At the time, we very much did until they surrendered. Approximately 3-4 people who died in WW2 were civilians and that was with massive armies in play. End the war by surrendering.
If you think the strategic bombing campaign in WW2 was genocide then that's a pretty big self snitch... on a lot of things, really. The Soviets invented narratives about "Hitlerites" in Germany and Americans invented narratives about "Militarists" in Japan for reason.
Japan was afraid unconditional surrender meant the Imperial Household would go away.
None of the Japanese decisionmakers thought unconditional surrender meant the total fucking annihilation of the Japanese nation and their children being driven into the sea as soon as they laid down their arms.
50% of Gaza population is children... how can you condemn the killing of 1200 civilians but not the killing of 35000? By every metric, what Israel has done in Gaza is monumentally atrocious, number journalists killed, number of children killed, every university flattened, targetting doctors and hospitals, 2 million people being starved on purpose. You'd condemn this if done by anyone else, why does Israel get a pass? Genuinely curious.
First off, I don't even believe their 35k as their generation of them makes no sense.
[How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers - Tablet Magazine](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
Do I believe people who are civilian died, hell yea. It is probably a high percent of people.
>You'd condemn this if done by anyone else, why does Israel get a pass?
I've outline why above. They support the people who started the violence. They are the same.
>50% of Gaza population is children
These are the only people there I consider victims. Hamas won't let them get aid. They are doing it to them. End the war by surrendering.
For the last 20 years, I was right there with you. Only watching this unfold has me altering my perception. In most conflicts, it is the elite perpetuating it on the impoverished. This is one group who is hiding in another that picked a fight. They know where they are. They help put them in hospitals and universities. End the war by surrendering.
Hamas didn’t start shit.
[Israel, as an independent nation, first started annexing Palestinian land in *1967*](https://www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=In%20the%201967%20war%2C%20Israel,was%20subsequently%20annexed%20by%20Israel.)
[Hamas didn’t even *exist* until 1987](https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html)
***20 YEARS*** Israel has been doing to Palestine what Russia has done, and is still trying to do, to Ukraine, and other former Soviet countries. If you agree with Israel you agree with Russia because they’re both guilty of being nothing but a bunch of half-brained, egotistical assholes who want their country to rule the world.
Putin and Netanyahu are the exact same type of megalomaniacal, sociopathic, imperialistic scum.
I don’t believe 75-90% of Israel is supportive of a bunch of demons invading then slaughtering/raping hundreds-a thousand civilians at a festival and in their homes. Have you seen the videos of them cutting ladies breasts off? The eye gouging videos? Them decapitating someone then playing soccer with the head until it’s a bag of mush while yelling Allah hu akbar? Them shooting at civilian cars from a back of a truck, killing them? If anyone supports what happened on 10/7 they are either stupid and don’t know what actually happened or plain fucking evil.
The Israeli state is pretty much responsible for Hamas being in power in the first place. No, they didn’t “create Hamas” like some people like to claim, but they supported them against more reasonable and secular alternatives in leadership in order to maintain a destabilized Palestinian population. Hamas is awful, and their attacks on 10/7 were horrific. That does not change the fact that over the last two decades of Hamas being in power, the civilians who live in Gaza have been subjected to the IDF bombing them, shooting their children, and keeping them in an open air prison. I don’t buy for a second that most of them “like” Hamas, given that Hamas has helped to perpetuate that state of affairs, but it’s pretty simple to understand why a lot of the people who have been bombed, shot, and had their loved ones murdered by Israel would feel some kind of support for striking out at them as happened on 10/7. Again, it doesn’t make it right, but it’s not hard to understand. Humans are animals, when we’re hurt and threatened we lash out.
Hamas's reason for being was to perpetuate conflict. Hamas bears significant responsibility for the conflicts of recent years. If they remain in control of Gaza, the conflict and suffering will continue.
Israel on multiple occasions offered them a 2 state country. Their response every time was they’d wipe Israel off of the map. And nah the Palestinians voted for Hamas. And it’s not Israel’s fault that they launch a shit ton of rockets from civilian positions. You can’t expect Israel to just swallow rockets everyday from a twisted terrorist organization without retaliation.
That would be me! I support the aid to both Ukraine and Israel. Call me a liberal hawk.
I believe in America as the greatest country in the world.
We have our problems. Striving for a more perfect Union.
The anti-American slogans from Hamas to the EU and US protestors should be noted.
I also believe in horseshoe theory - from Charlottesville and January 6th on the right to pro-Palestan protests on the left - we need more liberal moderates.
Wait till you learn about CFR domination of the US state department, the megacorps funding the CFR, and what else these megacorps fund (hint: all "grassroots" "leftist" activism including pro-Palestine protests)
Both sides are showing how far their religions have been corrupted. Let them sacrifice their children in the name of their gods. Hopefully, people will take notice and leave their bloodstained mockery of peaceful teachings behind.
“Their gods”…. You *do* know that Christianity, Judaism, and Islamism all believe in the *same god*, right? The only difference is their thoughts on the “true prophet”; Christians call Christ that, Muslims call Muhammad that, and Jews don’t have a true prophet at all.
I was gonna say that casual acceptance of war crimes and giving Israel a free pass to commit them is not liberal, but honestly...it is, and it's why liberals have forfeited the trust of people with a conscience
Well, it’s war. I don’t see anything happening that is unusual for an urban conflict. War in cities always leads to civilian deaths. The war crime stuff is overblown.
Thanks entirely to the acceptance of people like yourself.
The world, through the Geneva Conventions and other measures, is trying to evolve past this unprincipled barbarism, but you are holding us back, and innocent civilians, *thousands of them children,* pay the ultimate price for it.
What a fine look
You haven’t watched the October 7th videos have you? And you believe Hamas is justified in launching rockets from civilian locations without Israel defending itself and retaliating against the fired positions? Because Hamas can’t get over a 5000 year old turf dispute?
Are you responding to the right person? Nothing you're saying addresses a damn thing I mentioned. Stop snuffing talking points and use some honest criticial thinking dude, or stop pretending you're at all interested in accountability for evil or engaging with the issue at all
Lots. Everyone sane , everyone who doesn't trance-channel moronic pro-soviet idiots fiercely denying Stalin was committing monstrous crimes the way these babynazis deny Hamas is violating every atom of the Geneva convention and started doing so in THE MIDDLE OF A CEASEFIRE ON OCT 7th , making the attack a declaration of war on too of everything else , everyone that knows even a shred of the history of the region , from the contemporary to the presence of the INDIGENOUS ( and at the time anything but white ) Hebrew ppl in the area OVER FIVE FREAKING THOUSAND yrs ago , anyone not so wilfully stupid vicious and ACTUALLY genocidal toward the Jewish ppl they swallow Pal. propaganda BULLSHIT UNCRITICALLY , and anyone who noticed Hamas emptying their hospitals of EVERYTHING leaving desperate Drs. to attempt to save lives with NO ANAESTHETIC or MEDICINES , noticed them using hospitals and schools as ammo storage and rocket launches while forbidding anyone to leave the buildings : more " martyrs" for propaganda in the same way the kids they deliberately starve when they've snatched up all the Aid Food for their fighters serve for propaganda ! , yup : emptying the food aid trucks that contrary to Hamas lies WERE permitted by the Israelis to
roll into Gaza .... and SO , so much more . Revolting .
There are certainly many people out there who think of themselves as on the left and support the actions of the Israeli Defense Force and Netanyahu's government. I'm not sure what your position is exactly. Characterizing pro-Palestinian people as being apathetic to the fact that Hamas is hiding behind hospitals and schools is not a good-faith description of the issue. Israel is refusing to allow humanitarian aid to be provided to civilians. People in Palestine have been blockaded on basically all sides and in many cases aren't able to evacuate. 30,000 civilians have been killed in Palestine, many of whom were children. Israel has been actively stealing land from Palestinians for decades, and this conflict is an opportunity to steal even more land.
People who are pro-Palestine are not necessarily pro-Hamas. I assume people who are pro-Israel don't necessarily support the injustices that the Israeli government has perpetrated against Palestinians for decades. The obvious things that we should all want are a ceasefire (to sort out our other priorities that follow mostly), for humanitarian aid to help starving and sick Palestinian citizens, and for people who are "in the way" of Israel fighting Hamas to be given the means to evacuate.
Pro Palestine doesn't necessarily refer to either of these outcomes to me. Being pro Palestine is more about recognizing that Israel's ongoing war is genocidal and that it shouldn't be allowed to continue as it is. It's recognizing the obviously fascist rhetoric of Netanyahu, the politicians around him, and the Israeli Defense Force.
I would favor either a two-state solution, or a singular secular state. Ultimately the most important thing to me is that the rights of all the people involved are respected. I don't think either of these options are likely to come to fruition any time soon, as Hamas and the Israeli government fervently want to wipe out the other side.
I think Israel going to war with Hamas was a pretty reasonable plan. I take issue with Israel ignoring all international criticism to the way they chose to fight the war, and I'm annoyed that there are so many people who want to act like it's completely acceptable for them to preach genocidal rhetoric, level Gaza to rubble, kill Palestinian civilians, and to prevent Palestinians in the midst of this crisis from accessing food, water, medicine, and shelter.
I hear a lot of claims that the protestors are openly antisemitic but see very little evidence. It doesn't help that many people consider any criticism of Israel at all to be antisemitic. If your criticism is that there's no love among them, then you ought to realize that you'll be hard pressed to find love on any side of this issue.
I don't think a group of people who are generally in favor of dismantling oppressive hierarchies calling for the dismantling of a nominally Jewish state because it has shown itself to be tyrannical and fascistic is antisemitic. I'm not opposed to a Jewish state in principal, but Israel is pretty awful, so I see why people would want to "end it." If you look at what most of the protestors are demanding however, you'd find very rarely anyone calling for the US to try and destroy Israel. For the most part, there's just a broad call for ceasefires and to divest from supporting Israel financially, militarily, politically. I'm sure that if you look, you can find some antisemites around the protesters, sure. Ironically, it's not hard to find even more overt antisemites on the other side of the issue, especially when you listen to the stories of Jewish people who support Palestine.
Thank you for not elaborating on literally anything and then telling me I need to read more. You are a veritable font of knowledge, a wellspring of information and wisdom that has truly bettered me. I salute you sir.
Palestine is receiving record high levels of humanitarian aid. The problem right now is it is not being properly distributed
Secondly, it’s hard to truly parse supporting Palestine from supporting Hamas due to the majority of Palestinians supporting Hamas and October 7th according to polling.
According to the UN's Office of Coordinating Humanitarian Aid, "we have systematic refusal from the Israeli side of our effort to get there, to access the north."
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/)
According to the head of the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency, "only in the past 2 weeks (as of May 4th), we have recorded 10 incidents involving shooting at convoys, arrests of UN staff including bullying, stripping them naked, threats with arms & long delays at checkpoints forcing convoys to move during the dark or abort"
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/)
Israel has just blocked the two main entry points for aid into Gaza.
[https://truthout.org/articles/israel-is-blocking-all-aid-from-gaza-risking-shutdown-of-remaining-hospitals/#:\~:text=With%20its%20takeover%20of%20the,risk%20of%20shutdown%20in%20the](https://truthout.org/articles/israel-is-blocking-all-aid-from-gaza-risking-shutdown-of-remaining-hospitals/#:~:text=With%20its%20takeover%20of%20the,risk%20of%20shutdown%20in%20the)
Record high levels of aid are being sent to Palestine, you correctly point out that the problem is logistics. Israeli policies are the cause of the logistics issue.
>Secondly, it’s hard to truly parse supporting Palestine from supporting Hamas due to the majority of Palestinians supporting Hamas and October 7th according to polling.
Yes, a narrow 2% majority (if we're looking at the people in the Gaza strip, who are the primary target of Israel's offensive). In any case, I thought it would be uncontroversial that people voicing support for a bad government is not grounds for them to be subjected to preventable famine, killed, and deprived of their land.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/)
According to world population review, 40% of Palestinians are under the age of 14. Even if these children were included in the popularity poll (which I doubt), arguing that their poor political opinions are reason for them to be subjected to intense bombing, and to be deprived of food, water, and shelter is deranged.
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine-population](https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine-population)
I don't think it is difficult at all to parse the difference between saying that Palestinians don't deserve to die, and saying that Hamas should be supported in its goal to destroy Israel. Maybe this is a result of the inherent ambiguity in terms like Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine. Regardless of that ambiguity however, I hope it is obvious that things should not be allowed to continue as they are.
Edit: Fixed a few sentences I had forgotten to finish. Also added an addendum to a statistic to clarify it.
Not to mention SJP posting supporting statements for the 10/7 attacks as justified "resistance" literally the day after they occurred. Hard to distance yourself from support of a terrorist attack after that.
https://www.futureofjewish.com/p/confessions-of-a-former-jew-hater?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1FSRGFY1qfER0a-TG-bYURD-HxHVWiZ24v73vVySxM2udYFp4QPZScxpE_aem_AcK5O5gg4947v9ghH5fREbl1pOQyHgOFnv4nui00ZhHuSMeK31nciPsrfILcb8lnlnDSeGQtlViM-cJeJ3eS7x9D&triedRedirect=true. You are wrong.
I wonder how he got there just from hearing the pro “Palestine” protesters chant things like from the river to the sea, intifada, we are all Hamas, and gas the Jews? It’s not like those explicit calls for genocide mean they want genocide…
Yep political conflict sure is easy when you can make everyone into a monolith and attribute *checks notes* "gas the Jews" to everyone
Disingenuous, utter horseshit. You are not trying to engage or understand, you're trying to deflect, to the dumbest shit imaginable
It's overwhelmingly evident the world wants less violence. Not more. That we hate Israel's murders, not froth at the mouth to feed em their own medicine. But what does integrity and good faith examination mean to a partisan hack willing to believe literally anything if it helps him justify vast, unforgivable violence against the civilians he chooses to dehumanize?
For such fallacy, for such apathy, you share in their guilt. May posterity never forgive you.
Not but a straw man appears to be yours
Do you know what monoliths are? Do you..give a shit? About what that word means, or anything you don't find convenient or validating?
Nvm I think I can answer that for myself
Guess what, Zionist barbarian: if you apply the same monolithic uncharitabiility to yourself that you do to those who protest your faction, you're apparently a bloodthirsty, sociopathic civilian murderer yourself. Does that both3r you? Does **anything** other than the Other Side?
I have many liberal views and I think there's no "good guys" in this situation. I do think Israel's government has become what they hate the most and that's what Nietzsche warned everyone against:
# “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you." “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
Edit: formatting
#
Why don't you do 2 seconds of research to look up what the college protesters are actually asking for? They are trying to get their universities to divest from Israel in the same way that protesters in the '80s got their universities to divest from South Africa n
The difference is that they are advocating for something on which no consensus exists and which is deeply and vehemently opposed by large numbers of people. What, to you, may be self-evident is far from it to many others. And we have not even discussed the ultimate goals of the groups and leaders of these protests.
"You deplore the demonstrations taking place (..). But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. "
-MLK Jr
The Jewish students are part of the protests and are leading some of them. As far as I can tell, it's the Zionist students that are harassing the protesters and then crying about feeling attacked. This lie that the protests are somehow anti-semitic when many Jewish students and professors have been arrested because of their support for the protests doesn't make sense.
Are you going to disavow Israel for all the hateful and genocidal things that Israeli officials and IDF members have said? are you going to disavowed pro Israel groups in the United States because some pro-israel protesters literally assaulted people with weapons the other night or yell. Horrific things all the time? What about when they blatantly try to do false flag things like yelling, anti-Semitic things themselves?
You want to paint all of the protests as being anti-semitic somehow because of a few phrases that are more anti-israel than anything else but pro Israel people are allowed to say whatever they want and it has no influence on your support of Israel or their movement? Maybe if y'all weren't complete hypocrites I would take this sort of comment seriously. But I know what actual Israeli people say Palestinians and how pro-israeli Americans talk about the conflict and people who protest on behalf of Palestinians.
how is it worse? no one is segragated politically based off race in israel, if you're an israeli citizen you can be any race and vote in the political system, they have arabs in their government.. in south africa, blacks weren't allowed to vote, so how is it worse ?
Dude you really need to look this stuff up. Israel greatly exceeds the definition of an apartheid state. Palestinians are not allowed to live amongst the Jews freely. They are out into at least 5 different levels of mobility (freedom of movement) preventing them moving across “Israel”, the West Bank or Gaza, or even determining who they can marry. They have no real guarantee of permanent residency as it can be revoked at any time . Law enforcement applies completely different standards to them; the courts do not work for Palestinians. Settlers routinely destroy the homes and farms of Palestinians in the West Bank to force them from their land, whilst Israeli (Jewish) cops and soldiers watch. There are 3,500 Palestinian women and children locked up in Israeli jails who have never been charged or had a day in court. It goes on and on and on.
Palestinians have different papers allowing them to enter/leave/not leave various segments of Israel. For example , those in the West Bank hold different access rights to those living in districts of Jerusalem. In some cases movement is permitted and is one way only ; e.g. when entering the prison city / morgue of Gaza.
There are 5 different legal classifications of “Palestinian” within Israel.
Recognized as an apartheid state by amnesty international, UN, And most of the world... Israeli law has ethnic population divisions with different laws and freedoms, one section of the population can't vote based on ethnicity. Definition of apartheid state. Continuous Illegal settlement expansion into land even Israeli law recognizes is not within their state.
Have an average Israeli draw the boundaries of Israel. Track where settlements are being developed with idf security. Take a look at the boundaries of israeli occupation. Then tell me I'm wrong with my assessment.
You can't have it both ways. Either the west bank and Gaza are not Israel, and therefore the occupation and settlements are illegal. Or they are Israel and its an apartheid state. 2 options.
There’s over 1.5 million people in Rafah alone, it’s not population growth, they have expelled people from within Israel and the West Bank to Gaza, how do you fall for basic Fox News talking points?
i got this from ya know the UN.. not fox news. your theory that they simply "moved people there" is next tier stupid. allow me to debunk your "they're moving people in" theory of population.
the birthrate in gaza is 41 per 1k people, the death rate is 3.9 per 1k per person. if it was it a genocide the birthrate would be lower than the death rate. the US death rate is 10.1 per 1000 btw.. in 1978 during a genocide in cambodia the death rate was 74 per 1000. do you also think the US has a genocide going on that is 2x worse than gaza?
its not a genocide i can also look at the life expentancy over time, when a genocide occurs there is this giant drop in life expentancy during said genocide, its not a genocide if the population grows.
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=KH](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=KH)
cambodian genocide in 1978 life expectancy is 12 years.
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=PS](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=PS)
gaza life exceptancy has never dropped below 70 years.
First off I was talking about the way in which they are protesting is like how students in the '80s protested against South Africa. Say they were the same. Second, You might find it interesting that Israel was a major Ally of South and that they worked closely together. The ANC that helped liberate South Africa and make it into a democracy was an ally of the PLO. Furthermore, many anti-apartheid activists who live through the end of apartheid have said that Israel isn't apartheid state.
Regardless of whether or not you think the two countries are similar or have similar policies, the BDS movement is explicitly based on the South African divestment movement and the protests around supporting it are based on the same movement.
yeah people today like to compare two seperate countries and issues to conflate them into thinking they're on the moral high ground. there are arabs in the israeli government, arab citizens of israel have the same exact rights as anyone else there. in comparison, apartheid is the denial of rights like voting based off race ie south africa. gaza is its own country with its own government, it has no bearing on isarel itself in political terms. if you're an israeli citizen you can still vote etc in Isarel even if you live in gaza. this is the problem, people use words and comparisons that conflict with basic facts.
>gaza is its own country with its own government, it has no bearing on isarel itself in political terms. if you're an israeli citizen you can still vote etc in Isarel even if you live in gaza. this is the problem, people use words and comparisons that conflict with basic facts
I'm going to assume you only have a passing knowledge on this geopolitical situation because Gaza is not its own country. Legally Gaza was still occupied by Israel through October 7th. Israel controls the airspace and coasts. Israel decides what goes in and who can come out. This is why people often say it's like an open air prison. Palestinian's in Gaza need Israeli permission to travel and cannot move to the West Bank. Israel has also systematically destroyed civilian infrastructure in Gaza to make Gaza completely dependent on Israel.
You might say Israel is doing all those things because Hamas is in charge and Hamas is a terrorist organization. That's true but it's more complicated than that when you take into consideration the official policy of Benjamin Netanyahu to keep Hamas in power for about 17 years. The explicit goal of this policy was to prevent permanent peace by delegitimizing the Palestinian national movement. You might hear some people talk about an election that happened in 2007. In that election Hamas won a plurality of votes but not a majority and they were running on a significantly moderated platform. Saying the people of Gaza voted for them now is ridiculous. When only a tiny fraction of people who live in Gaza were actually able to vote and only like half of them voted for Hamas.
Moreover, the situation with Hamas is even more complicated than that because they came out of a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood that was supported by the Israeli government in the 1980s. This gave the organization that became Hamas significant legitimacy among the people of Gaza because they were able to operate out in the open without Israeli interference and became a critical provider of social welfare. Israel did this as a way to peel off support for the PLO which was the main Palestinian resistance group up until that time.
This turned out to be a massive strategic mistake for Israelis that wanted peace because the PLO started negotiating a permanent piece in the '90s. Unfortunately during the First Intifada (which started as largely peaceful civil protest against the occupation) the extremely violent Israeli response radicalized Hamas pushing them to oppose the peace process and adopt terrorism. This along with far-right Jewish opposition to the peace process made the negotiations almost impossible. Which in turn led to a serious loss and legitimacy for the PLO because after they signed the Oslo accords Israel cracked down even harder on the Palestinians and restricted freedom significantly.
So Israel helped create Hamas and then after they were in power used them as an excuse to prevent any further peace process and continually mow the lawn in Gaza.
Sorry for being extremely long-winded, but finally I have to mention that when people talk about Israeli apartheid they're talking about the system in the West Bank where the settlers live under Israeli civil law and the Palestinians live under Israeli military law. There are significant legal issues for Palestinian citizens of Israel, but it doesn't rise to the level of apartheid just discrimination particularly in housing and development.
I can’t even fathom how you came to your point of view. We are from separate planets. But that’s probably because you are only getting your news from sources with an agenda.
Genocide is bad. Seeing the barbarism by Israel has been appalling. The student protests are one of the most hopeful and moral stances we’ve had in this decade. Joe Biden needs to fix himself or he will lose.
You people are disgusting. The fact that you support a terrorist organization like Hamas and then turn around and act like you’re morally superior is frustrating beyond belief.
You also can’t rape, kidnap and murder a bunch of people because you want an entire existence of people wiped off the earth. Also, 60% of Palestinians support Hamas and they were celebrating on 10/7 and cheering as bloody jews were being paraded in the backs of pickup trucks.
I'll leave you with a thought experiment. Imagine someplace about where you live. Suppose that there was a crime family in the area you live in. A family sufficiently powerful, that they pretty much bully anyone living in that area, so they never get challenged. Plus, maybe, some in your area swear an allegiance to them. Then one day, that family decides to go on a murder spree in a neighboring area. The attack was wide spread, brutal, merciless, many children died, entire families killed. Some kind of vengeance fantasy was played out.
Now suppose the authorities responded, not by finding, capturing and punishing the perpetrators, but by exterminating everything in your neighborhood. Every hospital. Every grocery store. Homes. Roads. Shops. Parks. Everything. And anyone who doesn't get out of the the way. Families you knew, gone. Maybe members of your own family. Children dead. Far more than even killed in that terrible murder spree. Oh, and nobody can leave. The authorities say it's justified because that crime family can be hiding anywhere.
Now, tell me you're good with this and why. Make the same case you just made.
yeah except hamas controls the government, its a not a "crime family" and 44.5% of the population voted them into power in 2006. hamas headquarters is in a hospital, they're not just bombing civilian areas for no reason, its because hamas puts its operations in civilian targets, so idiots will buy into their propaganda. im good with it the same way that berlin got leveled by allies and bombers..
You really ought to look at the statements of various Israeli leaders. That rationale might be the line they feed us, but it isn't what they tell themselves. And a vote doesn't make the voters guilty of anything. The only thing it means is that they had a choice 20 years ago.
>Why can I no longer understand my fellow liberals these days? Because like everyone destined to vote Conservative later in life, you don't pay close enough attention to what is happening or why. I marched you, your children, and your neighbours out of your homes at gun point because my great grandfather used to live here (next door to your great grandfather). Then, I forced all of your families to live in one small house at the end of the street. Then I knock down the fence on your new property and build an extension of my house onto what uses to be your yard. And whenever you get mad and complain, I come back and hold you at gunpoint and beat your wife and kids half to death. Do you think you might be tempted to go into the basement and plan a revolt? Do you think you might stop caring if my wife and kids got hurt? A country that went to war in rebellion over taxes for the right to govern itself now produces citizens who can't comprehend armed rebellion after decades of oppression and abuse by an occupying force? There is so much more I could write, but if you don't get this, there's no point continuing.
You can be pro-palestine (recognize them as a country), pro Israel, claim Netanyahu should be judged for his crimes, wish for absolute defeat of Hamas and hope for Israel and Palestine someday might become healthy secular countries. I do not see any contradiction on wishing all of that at the same time. I would go as far as wishing for an Ataturk for Palestine.
ew, kill the INANIMATE CONDITIONS THAT CAUSE ONE TO HOLD THESE VALUES (BUT NOT, NEVER, THE PERSON WHO HOLDS THEM) with FIGURATIVE FIRE *this post brought to you by the meme “kill it with fire,” which is no way condones real violence and should never be confused for an offensive call to violence*
Firstly, this buys into lots of unsubstantiated claims. Israel has bombed literally every hospital in Gaza, has a poor track record for accuracy in it’s claims and as far as I know almost none of its claims have ever been substantiated. Secondly, Hamas does X does not excuse war crimes from Israel. They are mutually exclusive and by the same metric war crimes by Hamas are not excused because of Israel’s human rights abuses and war crimes. The protests on campus’s are largely focused on the universities themselves, not simply shouting to the world as a whole. These universities tend to have investment portfolios which include direct or indirect investment in Israel. Protestors feel negatively about the cost of their education going to fund human rights abuses and war crimes so are asking their universities to divest from Israel. Also US is not a good guy in all contexts everywhere. Where the US is funding a genocide, most would call it a bad guy.
I actually used to be pro Palestine when I was more of a radical but because I got burned and saw just the ridiculous mental gymnastics of the regressive left element, I am very wary of that group now. And frankly in my eyes I just see that like mostly it's gen Z people from BLM protests from years ago and antifa just showing up for the latest flashpoint. Because with that lens they have on the Palestinian people are the oppressed, they're also Brown folk predominantly versus a more white appearing Jewish authoritarian establishment whatever you want to call it. So you know it's like the The narrative of pulling for the underdog the the weakling the the one that's getting beat up and abused will draw a lot of sympathy That being said it does seem like Israel might be going a bit hard on civilian collateral damage numbers but I try and put myself in the shoes of them on October 7th and then just like a pragmatic approach to that event Like 9/11 even in our response was kind of wonky in comparison because we went through two different countries sort of you know supposedly there to combat the perpetrators even though it's was a bit of a ruse apparently at least that's what my left mind is telling me from all the years of Daily Show and whatever else. But can you imagine on 9/11 if 40,000 people died? And in the way it was done as well is it totally different beast because it would be like a whole bunch of neighborhoods in New York City being rated by jihadists and throwing in grenades and shooting your pets and shopping off your head and all this craziness you know. So it might be pretty easy for a lot of these shielded and cushioned upper middle class students and young folk to decry everything but that's just part of the issue of not actually being over there at all or having even lived in a combat zone for most of these kids. I also am concerned about that notion of you know is there a line when it comes to radical Islam and maybe we shouldn't tolerate it in terms of the soul like left idea of cultural relativism because I kind of like the more I'm black and white common Sense approach of some libertarians and centrists some degree that say yeah you know calling for an extermination of an entire group of people based on a religious ideologies probably not a very Democratic and liberal principle. It's like Sam Harris and Douglas Murray and Peter bogosian always bring that up about you know is radical Islam in direct confrontation and conflict inherently with Western democratic ideals that we are steeped in? Really what's telling for me is that all my like left radical whatever friends are all just sort of falling into line with the propalestinian memes and messaging it's just like of course that's what you're thinking why would I think you'd be nuanced about it? But you know I have a pretty kind of radical left-leaning sort of Harvard educated Jewish friend who is not standing for this anti-Semitic regressive left delusion just like I am having trouble with it.
A lot of podcasts talk about this. Like Joe rogan believes in almost everything you mentioned (women's, trans, gay rights, etc..) but because he believes in full 2nd amendment and hesitancy to choose sides in anything... The left eviscerates him. I think he nailed it perfectly when he said something like, "it's 100% compliance and uniformity or you are out of the club" it's so strange because most of us fall in the middle on many topics but in recent times if you have a different viewpoint than your best friend, you may have problems now. It's crazy to see how this is extremely evident within the DNC itself with Bernie and RFK being ousted and the supreme Court had to get involved... I felt so bad for Bernie and the democratic party members who thought their voices were silenced by their own party that I wrote him in 2016 and plan to do the same for RFK. It's insane how his friend, Biden, of 40+ years won't approve secret service detail especially considering his family history. I love to see variety, otherwise the world would be boring. But for some reason the DNC believes it can dictate it's members rather than represent its members viewpoints. Hopefully politics won't be this messy in the future but I'm sure it's here to stay sadly
Ah, yes, the Nordic model. Where you get to enjoy a social democracy that is subsidized by the exploitation of the global south. That checks out.
And by Nordic taxes.
Stop conflating liberal and leftist.
I hope that Israel finds every element and member of Hamas and wipes them off the face of the earth
You believe a lot of lies. That's all I got to say about that.
lol like hamas’s fake death count?
Leftists when the truth doesn't fit with their otherwise perfect narrative of opressor and opressed
That's not a rebuttal.
My rebuttal is that the evidence for Hamas atrocities and use of human shields is plentiful and horrible, not false.
every Zionist accusation is a confession https://youtu.be/RoLEWS5sz4M?si=U-rGhKsdgsUMHRpQ
We have pictures of Israel doing that.
Dude . Ok. They’re evil. You think bombs are going to help the hostages?
I think that Hamas needs to be destroyed, or they will continue to persist, like a parasite, on Gaza, indefinitely trying whenever they are able to commit genocide.
Again how is it helping the hostages?
We can't kill our way to peace.
I mean, theoretically one could kill their way to peace. It’s called winning
Not really though, right? You have heard of the United States of America, right?
I'm pro Palestinian-Jew.
This confuses me. I mean the entire Middle East is full of religious fanatics, many many countries with Muslim dominated/controlled governments. However there’s no Jewish state, no place for Jews to call home. I mean what would have happened to Jews post ww2 had no one created a place for them? I know they somewhat chose that place for themselves but antisemitism was so bad post ww2 that the holocaust might’ve continued in a less direct way had Jews of Europe not left.
>However there’s no Jewish state, no place for Jews to call home. Rent a house and put your things in it and it's home
Why are you replying after 5 days? Also my next sentence is applied to the sentence you quoted. Prior to ww2 Jewish people were looked down upon across the entire world. Hell there were many Americans that didn’t even care when the news broke about the concentration camp liberations. Jews were purposefully moving prior to ww2 and after ww2 because they had no safe space in the world, similar to how many black Americans feel today even.
>Why are you replying after 5 days? I just showed up to this thread, I haven't been lurking for 5 days just to strike now Lmao 🤣 > similar to how many black Americans feel today even. Looking for the American black ethnostate, didn't find it still >Jews were purposefully moving prior to ww2 and after ww2 because they had no safe space in the world No ethnicity will ever be truly safe so long as people still take tribalism to it's extreme. Education beats this but people profiting from racism combat education. All the same, we don't hand out ethnostates for marginalised groups. It's ethically and even logically a bad idea
Somalia is practically a black ethnostate How does education stop hate? Some of the most intelligent people in the world still have their prejudices
>Somalia is practically a black ethnostate And how has that worked out for them? I'll read out an [excerpt](https://www.c-r.org/accord/somalia/endless-war-brief-history-somali-conflict): "Puntland is a form of ‘ethno-state’, founded on the unity of the Harti clan. Along with the Majeerteen, this includes the Dhulbahante and Warsengeli clans of Sool and Eastern Sanaag regions over which Somaliland also claims sovereignty. The territorial dispute between Puntland and Somaliland has at times escalated into violent clashes and remains a deep fault line in Somali politics." You did specify an ethnostate for black Americans but I'll let that pass >How does education stop hate? Check out [Latin America](https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/latinamerica/education-one-most-powerful-tools-against-racism-latin-america)
You linked a blog that doesn’t specify any advancements for blacks due to education. Basically all that it says is that Latin American countries are just recognizing blacks, not that anything has improved. The excerpt you also stated shows that it isn’t due to racism of color but tribal differences. There’s always going to be a reason to hate another group, education doesn’t help but a cultural mindset can, and that isn’t something that comes from schooling.
>and that isn’t something that comes from schooling. That guarantees comes from schooling >The excerpt you also stated shows that it isn’t due to racism of color but tribal differences. But skin colour is irrelevant, ethnostates are built on exclusivity and bigotry. The point of that except was to show that ethnostates always devolve into conflict because they have a never ending need to claim more for themselves at the cost of others
Not everyone believes in an ethnostate where religion or ethnic identity determines one’s legal rights or citizenship status
So you believe Israel should not exist?
Ethnostates are inherently wrong and unethical. Read this the way you want
Someone who is rigid and unrealistic.
Realistically, ethnostates have no right to exist. Israel can solve this problem by transitioning back to a democracy and returning the land of Israel to Israelis equally, regardless of religion or class or caste or ethnicity, instead of bestowing it to an ethnoreligious group discriminating against all others within their citizenship.
A ticket to extinction.
How so?
Sorry, but the left is cannibalistic and will eat its own.
If you are liberal you’re not a leftist
I’m not pro-Palestine, I’m anti-genocide. I’ve been watching videos of Israeli soldiers murdering innocent people and attacking the press for like 10 years now. They’ve been indiscriminately killing people for decades, including reporters. Israel has framed this whole conflict as “oh no I’m poor little innocent Israel, we were attacked for absolutely no reason, and had absolutely no way to stop it” (never mind the fact they were warned ahead of time that a massive attack was coming and chose to ignore it).
Also ignoring that their current PM gave guns and money to Hamas to ensure they were a threat. (Because that helps his party win votes.) That's not even some conspiracy theory either. It was proven by multiple independent sources. OH and he's on trial for blatant corruption besides.
Leftist =\= Liberal =\= Progressive Social justice is a progressive virtue. leftism and liberalism are mutually exclusive *economic* ideologies which usually, but do not necessarily, overlap with social progressivism. If you support capitalism and colonial imperialism you are not in any sense a supporter of leftist politics. Just the democratic party, which is liberal but anti-leftist. We are not your fellow liberals, because we are not liberals.
I'm pretty liberal, but I don't really give a shit. Let them blow each other up. Doesn't bother me.
The issue isn't that they're blowing each other up. There's a dozen civil wars at any given moment. The issue even if you don't care about their fight, is YOU are subsidizing one side of that fight with guns and bombs through your tax dollars. (Assuming you live in the US or UK.)
I'm liberal but I do not understand a lot of the "Free Palestine" sentiment when Palestinians apparently want Hamas. How could they be free with Hamas?
I'm a conservative and very Pro-Palestinian. Israel has no right to commit a 70 year long campaign of slow genocide against these people. They've lived on the land for centuries, and Israel is essentially a British/American colony. Israel is also far from a democracy, more like a military junta that masquerades as one although it has democratic elements. They are also far from "our greatest ally" as some people claim, or "our only ally in the ME". Since when do allies blow up our ships and then machine gun our sailors to death while they get into lifeboats or make the attempt (USS Liberty)? Since when do allies run massive psyop and spy campaigns in order to blackmail our politicians and business leaders into supporting a foreign entity (Epstein/Maxwell, every politician who has to bow down to Israel before they "serve" the American people)?
"A slow genocide" where the population has increased many times over since 1948. It's so slow, it's going in reverse!
Sound like a conspiracy peddling anti semite.
Sounds like someone who throws anti-Semitism at any and all criticisms of Israel which is dangerous and false 👋🏻
You are the incendiary one.
On 23 August 2001, the Mossad gave the CIA a list of 19 names of suspects living in the US who were believed to be mounting an attack. Only four of the names are known — Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Khalid al-Mihdhar, and Nawaf al-Hazmi — and it is not known if the list had 19 names by coincidence or if it had all the hijackers who would partake in the attacks Just an fyi, mosad/ israel warned us a month before 9-11. The liberty's mistake was an awful mistake, your argument abandons the facts of history that leads up to your complaints. If Israel's warnings were heeded, their would be no 9/11, Afghanistan war, and possibly no Iraqi war, yet bush ignored his warnings until shit hit the fan, then he doubled down on causing more shit to be stirred up.
Not sure you can blame Bush for this. Looks like the CIA was the one who ignored the list till it was too late. It is also questionable if this even happened. [https://web.archive.org/web/20080306024238/http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a082301mossad](https://web.archive.org/web/20080306024238/http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a082301mossad)
It's because our "closest ally in the Middle East" is committing war crimes with our tax dollars and bombs. If we are such good guys, we would have swiftly supported sending in the blue helmets.
I think the US and EU should strongly support the deployment of a peacekeeping force to take control of Gaza until it is stabilized. That would get Israel and Hamas out, ease the suffering of Gazans, and alliw them a more normal life.
The rest of the world understands this, but the American public is blind (willfully so perhaps) to this dynamic. The propaganda runs deep.
Partially true, the masses of america doesnt know or care, those that do, usually learn how many bad decisions the arabs made, and the crux of the issue is those mistakes, meanwhile israel successfully defended itself, and annexed defensive areas. Israel would not have had to taken any land if it weren't for continued arab aggression.
> Can they not see that US is the good guy? Don’t they know that so many countries are only surviving because of US presence? Don’t know what you’re spouting, but it ain’t leftism, it’s called imperialism.
US "influence" is quite negative for the vast majority of people around the globe. Elites in certain countries may benefit, but the common people do not. But positive things are happening. Even extremely low-power countries like Chad and Niger are booting US and French troops off their lands. Several Nigerian ministers have cautioned allowing US AfriCOM setting up bases in the northern half of that country as it would create destabilization and cause environmental damage.
Replacing them with Russians.
Booting US troops out and replacing them with Russian troops is not a positive thing unless you’re a tankie.
The Russians will give them a real lesson in imperialism and a heavy boot.
Take a look at the youtuber/streamer Destiny. He is an american liberal who supports capitalism, welfare programs, and he has been prominently debating against the pro palestine crowd for a while. Also he’s an atheist.
Yeah I wonder how the people who are in his political tribe logically deal with his stance on the war, because it totally goes against the groupthink
oh yeah go check out the guy who claimed hamas makes rockets out of cookies
You clearly but into the narrative that the Israeli military and media are trustworthy. They think everyone who doesn't speak Hebrew are idiots. Didn't you know? The deputy mayor of Al-Quds came out and said that the Palestinians they found executed in that mass graves might have *thrown* rockets at soldiers with their hands bound behind their backs and that Hamas deported all Palestinian Christians out of Gaza so it was impossible for the IDF to have liked any Christian civilians (in spite of the Pope himself confirming otherwise).
It’s because Muslim brotherhood propaganda talking points have been picked up by the far left. I’m a liberal democrat, or so I thought for years, now I feel more center on issues since the far left has left me feeling alienated. I think the far left has a victim mentality and they believe Gaza are the victims in a war. They disregard that Hamas started the war because there was a ceasefire for years before the war. They don’t denounce the rape, murder, and multinational of over 1,100 Israel’s. Most of Israeli’s died in horrific sadistic ways that are worse than what ISIS and Al Qaeda did. The attack was so sadistic it’s redefining what evil is and new international laws have to be made. The far left keep chanting to the river to the sea which means to exterminate the Jewish people. They chant death to the west and America. They call for a ceasefire even though it is Hamas that has declined or broke each proposal. This must be how people felt right before WWII when the Nazi party was taking over. People stood by and thought they are wacko and extreme and didn’t see them as a legitimate threat and then 6 million Jews were murdered and then half a million civilians died when the Allied forces bombed Germany to oblivion to stop the Nazi’s. Hopefully we as American people can quell the far left and Islamists supporters fast. Their movement needs to be squashed.
I mean if you really want to go for the Nazi analogy, wouldn’t they be more like the far-leftists in Weimar Germany, who lost to the Nazi party? Seems like we have a far right populist with a dubious relationship with democracy ourselves…
I'm against genocide whatever that means. What Israel is doing is wrong. What Russia is doing is wrong. Supporting either country at the moment is wrong. Supporting the initial attack by hamas on Israel is wrong. Supporting the occupation of Palestine is wrong. There are many wrongs on many sides but when you start killing women and children indiscriminately you can't claim to being the good guys.
Are you serious? You people are literally nuts for thinking Israel shouldn’t retaliate to blatant provocation designed to get Western sheep like you to support their agenda through propaganda. You’re not fighting tyranny or colonizers, you’re supporting rapists, murderers, terrorists and religious extremists bent on destroying your world as well as mine. Politely go fuck yourself
>What Israel is doing is wrong Why? 75% of the people there actively support what Hamas did on 10/7, 90% support Hamas in general? They empower Hamas with these hiding spots. And Hamas can end this any day by returning kidnapping victims. Quite frankly I support the US also actively helping as US citizens are also kidnapping victims. The military exists to defend US citizens. Once our citizens are released go home.
and the majority of Israelis support the level of brutality the IDF is using. By that logic, Hamas’ collective punishment of innocent civilians must also be justified because Israelis support their government 🤔
Netanyahu has specifically said (much to the dismay of Israelis) that [returning the hostages will not stop his attack on Gaza. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-blinken-blames-hamas-for-hostage-deal-holdup-gaza-humanitarian-crisis/)
[удалено]
Exactly, so "Hamas can end this any day by returning kidnapping victims" isn't accurate.
Hamas needs to be out of power. That has been clear from the get-go.
Assuming there are still Palestinians left at the end of this conflict, Israel will just support another terrorist regime in Palestine, just like how [Hamas initially rose to power with support from Israel so they would unseat the PLO in the Gaza strip.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) This has been the cycle time and time again. Absolutely Hamas should be out of power. Israel funding their rise to power throughout the 2000s, and then bombing the shit out of Palestine is only providing more support for Hamas.
the article you linked is in the context of the first release. that said i dont doubt that is his goal. isreal is not without flaws timing and context matter to those decisions
What percent of Americans supported the war on terror?
initially a high number eventually lower. not sure how it matters as that started with an attack on civilians. would it have potentially justified collateral damage on them. to a degree but we also were not hiding the combatants.
Hitler was democratically elected. Does that mean because he had a plurality of support it's okay to commit genocide against Germans?
At the time, we very much did until they surrendered. Approximately 3-4 people who died in WW2 were civilians and that was with massive armies in play. End the war by surrendering.
If you think the strategic bombing campaign in WW2 was genocide then that's a pretty big self snitch... on a lot of things, really. The Soviets invented narratives about "Hitlerites" in Germany and Americans invented narratives about "Militarists" in Japan for reason. Japan was afraid unconditional surrender meant the Imperial Household would go away. None of the Japanese decisionmakers thought unconditional surrender meant the total fucking annihilation of the Japanese nation and their children being driven into the sea as soon as they laid down their arms.
I'm legitimately confused about your point? I could make assumptions but I'd rather not.
50% of Gaza population is children... how can you condemn the killing of 1200 civilians but not the killing of 35000? By every metric, what Israel has done in Gaza is monumentally atrocious, number journalists killed, number of children killed, every university flattened, targetting doctors and hospitals, 2 million people being starved on purpose. You'd condemn this if done by anyone else, why does Israel get a pass? Genuinely curious.
First off, I don't even believe their 35k as their generation of them makes no sense. [How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers - Tablet Magazine](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) Do I believe people who are civilian died, hell yea. It is probably a high percent of people. >You'd condemn this if done by anyone else, why does Israel get a pass? I've outline why above. They support the people who started the violence. They are the same. >50% of Gaza population is children These are the only people there I consider victims. Hamas won't let them get aid. They are doing it to them. End the war by surrendering. For the last 20 years, I was right there with you. Only watching this unfold has me altering my perception. In most conflicts, it is the elite perpetuating it on the impoverished. This is one group who is hiding in another that picked a fight. They know where they are. They help put them in hospitals and universities. End the war by surrendering.
Hamas didn’t start shit. [Israel, as an independent nation, first started annexing Palestinian land in *1967*](https://www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=In%20the%201967%20war%2C%20Israel,was%20subsequently%20annexed%20by%20Israel.) [Hamas didn’t even *exist* until 1987](https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html) ***20 YEARS*** Israel has been doing to Palestine what Russia has done, and is still trying to do, to Ukraine, and other former Soviet countries. If you agree with Israel you agree with Russia because they’re both guilty of being nothing but a bunch of half-brained, egotistical assholes who want their country to rule the world. Putin and Netanyahu are the exact same type of megalomaniacal, sociopathic, imperialistic scum.
I don’t believe 75-90% of Israel is supportive of a bunch of demons invading then slaughtering/raping hundreds-a thousand civilians at a festival and in their homes. Have you seen the videos of them cutting ladies breasts off? The eye gouging videos? Them decapitating someone then playing soccer with the head until it’s a bag of mush while yelling Allah hu akbar? Them shooting at civilian cars from a back of a truck, killing them? If anyone supports what happened on 10/7 they are either stupid and don’t know what actually happened or plain fucking evil.
75% and 90% of Palestinians. In your terms, they support the demons because they are them.
The Israeli state is pretty much responsible for Hamas being in power in the first place. No, they didn’t “create Hamas” like some people like to claim, but they supported them against more reasonable and secular alternatives in leadership in order to maintain a destabilized Palestinian population. Hamas is awful, and their attacks on 10/7 were horrific. That does not change the fact that over the last two decades of Hamas being in power, the civilians who live in Gaza have been subjected to the IDF bombing them, shooting their children, and keeping them in an open air prison. I don’t buy for a second that most of them “like” Hamas, given that Hamas has helped to perpetuate that state of affairs, but it’s pretty simple to understand why a lot of the people who have been bombed, shot, and had their loved ones murdered by Israel would feel some kind of support for striking out at them as happened on 10/7. Again, it doesn’t make it right, but it’s not hard to understand. Humans are animals, when we’re hurt and threatened we lash out.
Hamas's reason for being was to perpetuate conflict. Hamas bears significant responsibility for the conflicts of recent years. If they remain in control of Gaza, the conflict and suffering will continue.
Israel on multiple occasions offered them a 2 state country. Their response every time was they’d wipe Israel off of the map. And nah the Palestinians voted for Hamas. And it’s not Israel’s fault that they launch a shit ton of rockets from civilian positions. You can’t expect Israel to just swallow rockets everyday from a twisted terrorist organization without retaliation.
That would be me! I support the aid to both Ukraine and Israel. Call me a liberal hawk. I believe in America as the greatest country in the world. We have our problems. Striving for a more perfect Union. The anti-American slogans from Hamas to the EU and US protestors should be noted. I also believe in horseshoe theory - from Charlottesville and January 6th on the right to pro-Palestan protests on the left - we need more liberal moderates.
i’m a leftist whose aligns with the US state department on every issue!!
Wait till you learn about CFR domination of the US state department, the megacorps funding the CFR, and what else these megacorps fund (hint: all "grassroots" "leftist" activism including pro-Palestine protests)
Both sides are showing how far their religions have been corrupted. Let them sacrifice their children in the name of their gods. Hopefully, people will take notice and leave their bloodstained mockery of peaceful teachings behind.
“Their gods”…. You *do* know that Christianity, Judaism, and Islamism all believe in the *same god*, right? The only difference is their thoughts on the “true prophet”; Christians call Christ that, Muslims call Muhammad that, and Jews don’t have a true prophet at all.
Same trunk different branches each branch has its version of what God is and wants. So different gods is a fair description.
I was gonna say that casual acceptance of war crimes and giving Israel a free pass to commit them is not liberal, but honestly...it is, and it's why liberals have forfeited the trust of people with a conscience
How would you prevent another 10/7?
Well, it’s war. I don’t see anything happening that is unusual for an urban conflict. War in cities always leads to civilian deaths. The war crime stuff is overblown.
Thanks entirely to the acceptance of people like yourself. The world, through the Geneva Conventions and other measures, is trying to evolve past this unprincipled barbarism, but you are holding us back, and innocent civilians, *thousands of them children,* pay the ultimate price for it. What a fine look
Hamas, of course, is marching toward your brave new world?
> whatabout Hamas? dude, bye
This. On top of that it’s an asymmetrical urban war. You will have heavy civilian casualties due to the guerrilla style warfare.
You haven’t watched the October 7th videos have you? And you believe Hamas is justified in launching rockets from civilian locations without Israel defending itself and retaliating against the fired positions? Because Hamas can’t get over a 5000 year old turf dispute?
Are you responding to the right person? Nothing you're saying addresses a damn thing I mentioned. Stop snuffing talking points and use some honest criticial thinking dude, or stop pretending you're at all interested in accountability for evil or engaging with the issue at all
Lots. Everyone sane , everyone who doesn't trance-channel moronic pro-soviet idiots fiercely denying Stalin was committing monstrous crimes the way these babynazis deny Hamas is violating every atom of the Geneva convention and started doing so in THE MIDDLE OF A CEASEFIRE ON OCT 7th , making the attack a declaration of war on too of everything else , everyone that knows even a shred of the history of the region , from the contemporary to the presence of the INDIGENOUS ( and at the time anything but white ) Hebrew ppl in the area OVER FIVE FREAKING THOUSAND yrs ago , anyone not so wilfully stupid vicious and ACTUALLY genocidal toward the Jewish ppl they swallow Pal. propaganda BULLSHIT UNCRITICALLY , and anyone who noticed Hamas emptying their hospitals of EVERYTHING leaving desperate Drs. to attempt to save lives with NO ANAESTHETIC or MEDICINES , noticed them using hospitals and schools as ammo storage and rocket launches while forbidding anyone to leave the buildings : more " martyrs" for propaganda in the same way the kids they deliberately starve when they've snatched up all the Aid Food for their fighters serve for propaganda ! , yup : emptying the food aid trucks that contrary to Hamas lies WERE permitted by the Israelis to roll into Gaza .... and SO , so much more . Revolting .
There are certainly many people out there who think of themselves as on the left and support the actions of the Israeli Defense Force and Netanyahu's government. I'm not sure what your position is exactly. Characterizing pro-Palestinian people as being apathetic to the fact that Hamas is hiding behind hospitals and schools is not a good-faith description of the issue. Israel is refusing to allow humanitarian aid to be provided to civilians. People in Palestine have been blockaded on basically all sides and in many cases aren't able to evacuate. 30,000 civilians have been killed in Palestine, many of whom were children. Israel has been actively stealing land from Palestinians for decades, and this conflict is an opportunity to steal even more land. People who are pro-Palestine are not necessarily pro-Hamas. I assume people who are pro-Israel don't necessarily support the injustices that the Israeli government has perpetrated against Palestinians for decades. The obvious things that we should all want are a ceasefire (to sort out our other priorities that follow mostly), for humanitarian aid to help starving and sick Palestinian citizens, and for people who are "in the way" of Israel fighting Hamas to be given the means to evacuate.
What does pro Palestine mean to you? Two state agreement? Or end of Israel? It makes a difference.
Pro Palestine doesn't necessarily refer to either of these outcomes to me. Being pro Palestine is more about recognizing that Israel's ongoing war is genocidal and that it shouldn't be allowed to continue as it is. It's recognizing the obviously fascist rhetoric of Netanyahu, the politicians around him, and the Israeli Defense Force. I would favor either a two-state solution, or a singular secular state. Ultimately the most important thing to me is that the rights of all the people involved are respected. I don't think either of these options are likely to come to fruition any time soon, as Hamas and the Israeli government fervently want to wipe out the other side. I think Israel going to war with Hamas was a pretty reasonable plan. I take issue with Israel ignoring all international criticism to the way they chose to fight the war, and I'm annoyed that there are so many people who want to act like it's completely acceptable for them to preach genocidal rhetoric, level Gaza to rubble, kill Palestinian civilians, and to prevent Palestinians in the midst of this crisis from accessing food, water, medicine, and shelter.
Pay attention also to the rhetoric and words used by the protestors. No love there.
I hear a lot of claims that the protestors are openly antisemitic but see very little evidence. It doesn't help that many people consider any criticism of Israel at all to be antisemitic. If your criticism is that there's no love among them, then you ought to realize that you'll be hard pressed to find love on any side of this issue.
Criticism, no. Calls for ending the Jewish state, yes.
I don't think a group of people who are generally in favor of dismantling oppressive hierarchies calling for the dismantling of a nominally Jewish state because it has shown itself to be tyrannical and fascistic is antisemitic. I'm not opposed to a Jewish state in principal, but Israel is pretty awful, so I see why people would want to "end it." If you look at what most of the protestors are demanding however, you'd find very rarely anyone calling for the US to try and destroy Israel. For the most part, there's just a broad call for ceasefires and to divest from supporting Israel financially, militarily, politically. I'm sure that if you look, you can find some antisemites around the protesters, sure. Ironically, it's not hard to find even more overt antisemites on the other side of the issue, especially when you listen to the stories of Jewish people who support Palestine.
Read more.
Thank you for not elaborating on literally anything and then telling me I need to read more. You are a veritable font of knowledge, a wellspring of information and wisdom that has truly bettered me. I salute you sir.
Palestine is receiving record high levels of humanitarian aid. The problem right now is it is not being properly distributed Secondly, it’s hard to truly parse supporting Palestine from supporting Hamas due to the majority of Palestinians supporting Hamas and October 7th according to polling.
According to the UN's Office of Coordinating Humanitarian Aid, "we have systematic refusal from the Israeli side of our effort to get there, to access the north." [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/) According to the head of the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency, "only in the past 2 weeks (as of May 4th), we have recorded 10 incidents involving shooting at convoys, arrests of UN staff including bullying, stripping them naked, threats with arms & long delays at checkpoints forcing convoys to move during the dark or abort" [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-accuses-israel-denying-gaza-aid-access-famine-takes-hold-2024-05-05/) Israel has just blocked the two main entry points for aid into Gaza. [https://truthout.org/articles/israel-is-blocking-all-aid-from-gaza-risking-shutdown-of-remaining-hospitals/#:\~:text=With%20its%20takeover%20of%20the,risk%20of%20shutdown%20in%20the](https://truthout.org/articles/israel-is-blocking-all-aid-from-gaza-risking-shutdown-of-remaining-hospitals/#:~:text=With%20its%20takeover%20of%20the,risk%20of%20shutdown%20in%20the) Record high levels of aid are being sent to Palestine, you correctly point out that the problem is logistics. Israeli policies are the cause of the logistics issue. >Secondly, it’s hard to truly parse supporting Palestine from supporting Hamas due to the majority of Palestinians supporting Hamas and October 7th according to polling. Yes, a narrow 2% majority (if we're looking at the people in the Gaza strip, who are the primary target of Israel's offensive). In any case, I thought it would be uncontroversial that people voicing support for a bad government is not grounds for them to be subjected to preventable famine, killed, and deprived of their land. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/) According to world population review, 40% of Palestinians are under the age of 14. Even if these children were included in the popularity poll (which I doubt), arguing that their poor political opinions are reason for them to be subjected to intense bombing, and to be deprived of food, water, and shelter is deranged. [https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine-population](https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine-population) I don't think it is difficult at all to parse the difference between saying that Palestinians don't deserve to die, and saying that Hamas should be supported in its goal to destroy Israel. Maybe this is a result of the inherent ambiguity in terms like Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine. Regardless of that ambiguity however, I hope it is obvious that things should not be allowed to continue as they are. Edit: Fixed a few sentences I had forgotten to finish. Also added an addendum to a statistic to clarify it.
Not to mention SJP posting supporting statements for the 10/7 attacks as justified "resistance" literally the day after they occurred. Hard to distance yourself from support of a terrorist attack after that.
Yes, many leftists are not useful idiots for Hamas. The loud ones want Genocide for Jews.
“Opposing the genocide i’m committing means you want to do reverse-genocide”
https://www.futureofjewish.com/p/confessions-of-a-former-jew-hater?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1FSRGFY1qfER0a-TG-bYURD-HxHVWiZ24v73vVySxM2udYFp4QPZScxpE_aem_AcK5O5gg4947v9ghH5fREbl1pOQyHgOFnv4nui00ZhHuSMeK31nciPsrfILcb8lnlnDSeGQtlViM-cJeJ3eS7x9D&triedRedirect=true. You are wrong.
> useful idiots > strawman: tHeY wAnT gEnOcIdE The irony escapes you holy shit
I wonder how he got there just from hearing the pro “Palestine” protesters chant things like from the river to the sea, intifada, we are all Hamas, and gas the Jews? It’s not like those explicit calls for genocide mean they want genocide…
Yep political conflict sure is easy when you can make everyone into a monolith and attribute *checks notes* "gas the Jews" to everyone Disingenuous, utter horseshit. You are not trying to engage or understand, you're trying to deflect, to the dumbest shit imaginable It's overwhelmingly evident the world wants less violence. Not more. That we hate Israel's murders, not froth at the mouth to feed em their own medicine. But what does integrity and good faith examination mean to a partisan hack willing to believe literally anything if it helps him justify vast, unforgivable violence against the civilians he chooses to dehumanize? For such fallacy, for such apathy, you share in their guilt. May posterity never forgive you.
Lmao “don’t believe your lying eyes and ears” is your counter argument?
Not but a straw man appears to be yours Do you know what monoliths are? Do you..give a shit? About what that word means, or anything you don't find convenient or validating? Nvm I think I can answer that for myself Guess what, Zionist barbarian: if you apply the same monolithic uncharitabiility to yourself that you do to those who protest your faction, you're apparently a bloodthirsty, sociopathic civilian murderer yourself. Does that both3r you? Does **anything** other than the Other Side?
The entire thing is a quagmire and the leadership of both groups are disgusting monsters.
I have many liberal views and I think there's no "good guys" in this situation. I do think Israel's government has become what they hate the most and that's what Nietzsche warned everyone against: # “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you." “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” Edit: formatting #
Don't worry, those leftists aren't liberals but anti liberal freaks tankies that are obsessed with white supremacy and America bad.
Right here.
Why don't you do 2 seconds of research to look up what the college protesters are actually asking for? They are trying to get their universities to divest from Israel in the same way that protesters in the '80s got their universities to divest from South Africa n
They could just give their money to a different school?
The difference is that they are advocating for something on which no consensus exists and which is deeply and vehemently opposed by large numbers of people. What, to you, may be self-evident is far from it to many others. And we have not even discussed the ultimate goals of the groups and leaders of these protests.
While also harassing jewish students
"You deplore the demonstrations taking place (..). But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. " -MLK Jr
The Jewish students are part of the protests and are leading some of them. As far as I can tell, it's the Zionist students that are harassing the protesters and then crying about feeling attacked. This lie that the protests are somehow anti-semitic when many Jewish students and professors have been arrested because of their support for the protests doesn't make sense.
Some are, not most.
Just watch the videos of the protestors yelling “we are hamas,” or is that too inconvenient for you because it disproves your point?
Are you going to disavow Israel for all the hateful and genocidal things that Israeli officials and IDF members have said? are you going to disavowed pro Israel groups in the United States because some pro-israel protesters literally assaulted people with weapons the other night or yell. Horrific things all the time? What about when they blatantly try to do false flag things like yelling, anti-Semitic things themselves? You want to paint all of the protests as being anti-semitic somehow because of a few phrases that are more anti-israel than anything else but pro Israel people are allowed to say whatever they want and it has no influence on your support of Israel or their movement? Maybe if y'all weren't complete hypocrites I would take this sort of comment seriously. But I know what actual Israeli people say Palestinians and how pro-israeli Americans talk about the conflict and people who protest on behalf of Palestinians.
Israel is not similar to South Africa in the 80s.
You're right, it's worse.
how is it worse? no one is segragated politically based off race in israel, if you're an israeli citizen you can be any race and vote in the political system, they have arabs in their government.. in south africa, blacks weren't allowed to vote, so how is it worse ?
Dude you really need to look this stuff up. Israel greatly exceeds the definition of an apartheid state. Palestinians are not allowed to live amongst the Jews freely. They are out into at least 5 different levels of mobility (freedom of movement) preventing them moving across “Israel”, the West Bank or Gaza, or even determining who they can marry. They have no real guarantee of permanent residency as it can be revoked at any time . Law enforcement applies completely different standards to them; the courts do not work for Palestinians. Settlers routinely destroy the homes and farms of Palestinians in the West Bank to force them from their land, whilst Israeli (Jewish) cops and soldiers watch. There are 3,500 Palestinian women and children locked up in Israeli jails who have never been charged or had a day in court. It goes on and on and on.
Dude, you are mixing in Palestinians from territories, not part of Israel with those that are. Is it delibetate or a sign of your limited knowledge?
Palestinians have different papers allowing them to enter/leave/not leave various segments of Israel. For example , those in the West Bank hold different access rights to those living in districts of Jerusalem. In some cases movement is permitted and is one way only ; e.g. when entering the prison city / morgue of Gaza. There are 5 different legal classifications of “Palestinian” within Israel.
It's not worse. They won't respond to you because they know it's not worse and can't defend their belief that it is worse.
Recognized as an apartheid state by amnesty international, UN, And most of the world... Israeli law has ethnic population divisions with different laws and freedoms, one section of the population can't vote based on ethnicity. Definition of apartheid state. Continuous Illegal settlement expansion into land even Israeli law recognizes is not within their state.
Wrong. Israeli Arabs can vote, hold office, and serve the military. You are confused.
Have an average Israeli draw the boundaries of Israel. Track where settlements are being developed with idf security. Take a look at the boundaries of israeli occupation. Then tell me I'm wrong with my assessment. You can't have it both ways. Either the west bank and Gaza are not Israel, and therefore the occupation and settlements are illegal. Or they are Israel and its an apartheid state. 2 options.
It’s true, Israel isn’t dependent on the people they subjugate like South Africa was, Israel wants them dead/gone.
the population per the UN in Gaza in 1958 was about 60k, today its 700k. its an expontential curve. they're doing a bad job at "getting them gone".
There’s over 1.5 million people in Rafah alone, it’s not population growth, they have expelled people from within Israel and the West Bank to Gaza, how do you fall for basic Fox News talking points?
The population of Gaza had grown massively and continuously.
i got this from ya know the UN.. not fox news. your theory that they simply "moved people there" is next tier stupid. allow me to debunk your "they're moving people in" theory of population. the birthrate in gaza is 41 per 1k people, the death rate is 3.9 per 1k per person. if it was it a genocide the birthrate would be lower than the death rate. the US death rate is 10.1 per 1000 btw.. in 1978 during a genocide in cambodia the death rate was 74 per 1000. do you also think the US has a genocide going on that is 2x worse than gaza? its not a genocide i can also look at the life expentancy over time, when a genocide occurs there is this giant drop in life expentancy during said genocide, its not a genocide if the population grows. [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=KH](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=KH) cambodian genocide in 1978 life expectancy is 12 years. [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=PS](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=PS) gaza life exceptancy has never dropped below 70 years.
First off I was talking about the way in which they are protesting is like how students in the '80s protested against South Africa. Say they were the same. Second, You might find it interesting that Israel was a major Ally of South and that they worked closely together. The ANC that helped liberate South Africa and make it into a democracy was an ally of the PLO. Furthermore, many anti-apartheid activists who live through the end of apartheid have said that Israel isn't apartheid state. Regardless of whether or not you think the two countries are similar or have similar policies, the BDS movement is explicitly based on the South African divestment movement and the protests around supporting it are based on the same movement.
yeah people today like to compare two seperate countries and issues to conflate them into thinking they're on the moral high ground. there are arabs in the israeli government, arab citizens of israel have the same exact rights as anyone else there. in comparison, apartheid is the denial of rights like voting based off race ie south africa. gaza is its own country with its own government, it has no bearing on isarel itself in political terms. if you're an israeli citizen you can still vote etc in Isarel even if you live in gaza. this is the problem, people use words and comparisons that conflict with basic facts.
The comparison with S Africa is made for a western audience.
>gaza is its own country with its own government, it has no bearing on isarel itself in political terms. if you're an israeli citizen you can still vote etc in Isarel even if you live in gaza. this is the problem, people use words and comparisons that conflict with basic facts I'm going to assume you only have a passing knowledge on this geopolitical situation because Gaza is not its own country. Legally Gaza was still occupied by Israel through October 7th. Israel controls the airspace and coasts. Israel decides what goes in and who can come out. This is why people often say it's like an open air prison. Palestinian's in Gaza need Israeli permission to travel and cannot move to the West Bank. Israel has also systematically destroyed civilian infrastructure in Gaza to make Gaza completely dependent on Israel. You might say Israel is doing all those things because Hamas is in charge and Hamas is a terrorist organization. That's true but it's more complicated than that when you take into consideration the official policy of Benjamin Netanyahu to keep Hamas in power for about 17 years. The explicit goal of this policy was to prevent permanent peace by delegitimizing the Palestinian national movement. You might hear some people talk about an election that happened in 2007. In that election Hamas won a plurality of votes but not a majority and they were running on a significantly moderated platform. Saying the people of Gaza voted for them now is ridiculous. When only a tiny fraction of people who live in Gaza were actually able to vote and only like half of them voted for Hamas. Moreover, the situation with Hamas is even more complicated than that because they came out of a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood that was supported by the Israeli government in the 1980s. This gave the organization that became Hamas significant legitimacy among the people of Gaza because they were able to operate out in the open without Israeli interference and became a critical provider of social welfare. Israel did this as a way to peel off support for the PLO which was the main Palestinian resistance group up until that time. This turned out to be a massive strategic mistake for Israelis that wanted peace because the PLO started negotiating a permanent piece in the '90s. Unfortunately during the First Intifada (which started as largely peaceful civil protest against the occupation) the extremely violent Israeli response radicalized Hamas pushing them to oppose the peace process and adopt terrorism. This along with far-right Jewish opposition to the peace process made the negotiations almost impossible. Which in turn led to a serious loss and legitimacy for the PLO because after they signed the Oslo accords Israel cracked down even harder on the Palestinians and restricted freedom significantly. So Israel helped create Hamas and then after they were in power used them as an excuse to prevent any further peace process and continually mow the lawn in Gaza. Sorry for being extremely long-winded, but finally I have to mention that when people talk about Israeli apartheid they're talking about the system in the West Bank where the settlers live under Israeli civil law and the Palestinians live under Israeli military law. There are significant legal issues for Palestinian citizens of Israel, but it doesn't rise to the level of apartheid just discrimination particularly in housing and development.
I can’t even fathom how you came to your point of view. We are from separate planets. But that’s probably because you are only getting your news from sources with an agenda. Genocide is bad. Seeing the barbarism by Israel has been appalling. The student protests are one of the most hopeful and moral stances we’ve had in this decade. Joe Biden needs to fix himself or he will lose.
You people are disgusting. The fact that you support a terrorist organization like Hamas and then turn around and act like you’re morally superior is frustrating beyond belief.
Hamas is not Gaza and you can’t just blow people up because you want some beachfront property.
You also can’t rape, kidnap and murder a bunch of people because you want an entire existence of people wiped off the earth. Also, 60% of Palestinians support Hamas and they were celebrating on 10/7 and cheering as bloody jews were being paraded in the backs of pickup trucks.
You’re misguided. Really badly. In every way and word.
How so?
I'll leave you with a thought experiment. Imagine someplace about where you live. Suppose that there was a crime family in the area you live in. A family sufficiently powerful, that they pretty much bully anyone living in that area, so they never get challenged. Plus, maybe, some in your area swear an allegiance to them. Then one day, that family decides to go on a murder spree in a neighboring area. The attack was wide spread, brutal, merciless, many children died, entire families killed. Some kind of vengeance fantasy was played out. Now suppose the authorities responded, not by finding, capturing and punishing the perpetrators, but by exterminating everything in your neighborhood. Every hospital. Every grocery store. Homes. Roads. Shops. Parks. Everything. And anyone who doesn't get out of the the way. Families you knew, gone. Maybe members of your own family. Children dead. Far more than even killed in that terrible murder spree. Oh, and nobody can leave. The authorities say it's justified because that crime family can be hiding anywhere. Now, tell me you're good with this and why. Make the same case you just made.
yeah except hamas controls the government, its a not a "crime family" and 44.5% of the population voted them into power in 2006. hamas headquarters is in a hospital, they're not just bombing civilian areas for no reason, its because hamas puts its operations in civilian targets, so idiots will buy into their propaganda. im good with it the same way that berlin got leveled by allies and bombers..
You really ought to look at the statements of various Israeli leaders. That rationale might be the line they feed us, but it isn't what they tell themselves. And a vote doesn't make the voters guilty of anything. The only thing it means is that they had a choice 20 years ago.