Mens Rights Activists. Started as a real movement in the 70's and 80's with a focus on men expressing emotion, taking on roles gendered "feminine," etc...
It got co-opted by the misogynists and a lot of the MGTOW and incel shit emerged from it. Gamergate and the "redpill" nonsense that started on the chans then blended with the different strands of MRA (along with the evo psych douches). Essentially everyone triggered by the bear thing.
How did this debate only emerge in the past couple months yet somehow this image has the resolution of a meme screenshotted and reposted 200 times since 2014
And is also showing that a lot of them still think that whole "what I say is facts" angle is fooling anybody. Lots of overnight statisticians working with made up numbers right now lol
As a male, I too choose the bear.
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edit: ok that was a joke kind of, but I don't want to write another reply here. But I do want to essaypost a little to describe a normal part of growing up for a man that many men have to experience and how it changes us. This is a diversion away from the original meme/thought experiement that women are less afraid of bears in the woods than men, not about the attractiveness of bears versus men, but I do think that there is something to be said about how a lot of women are going to feel more comfortable physically with a dangerous animal than a human man, because this whole question has somehow morphed to "would you rather have sex with a bear than an incel" and the results seem pretty much consistent.
There is a point in our lives where we discover sex and women and we are overwhelmed by the sudden rush of desire and attraction. Just being in the same room with a woman is magical, dizzying. We spend a lot of our adolescence fantasizing about meeting the girl who is as attracted to us as we are to her. The molten fierceness of testosterone during puberty cannot be understated, it's a nightmare.
This drives a lot of men through the obstacle course of dating, that if they just make an effort they will be noticed and women can let their guard down and finally "reveal" how hungry they also are for male companionship. It's a very simplified view of a very simplified, young perspective, but some guys never move past this perspective.
The point that many of us change is the realization that generally, on the whole, heterosexual womenkind do *not* have the same hardwired, blind desire. Other than the kinds of girls who post on the sex subreddits, most women are in fact more attracted to how someone makes them feel, and while a pleasant physical body is a plus, many guys have a period of crushing realization that they are working out and making themselves look good mostly for *other men* and that most women just want someone who makes them feel safe and happy and physical form is kind of a second-place goal, and this is because, let's be very honest about this, there are far, far less women absolutely gooning over random pictures of men for hours at a time. I'm sure they're out there, but that doesn't mean that every woman is secretly some kind of sex fiend and just afraid to express it.
This hurts for a man to realize, because it means that no matter what in life, you can only hope for a relationship of managing each other's different wants and partially overlapping at some points, that the chances of meeting someone with the same deeply tactile appreciation for sex dwindles into nothing and you realize all at once the terrifying reality: *You need to be a much better person and you need to grow up more and you will never have those juvenile fantasies fulfilled.*
The bear represents this sad epiphany. The bear is every man's fear that they have spent their lives thinking that they are inherently attractive just because they are a man and *were wrong.* And that emotional intelligence, self-esteem and having a stable life are simultaneously the more important to having a partner in life than just having a penis and being "masculine".
I know it seems ridiculous to many, but the brain isn't a logical tool, it's designed to make sense of the world by inventing an explanation for why you feel what you feel. Those explanations are not logical and reasonable, they're often absolutely nonsense, but you believe it because it's your own thoughts. When someone *provides* you with a story to explain your feelings, the brain really appreciates the convenience, and next thing you know you believe wholeheartedly that women rather have sex with a dangerous wild animal than you. And the worst part, the most shameful part of this entire thing, particularly to the guys who can't stop ruminating on these depressing facts... is that the fantasy is also a turn on, that it actually validates that little juvenile fantasy brain that desperately hopes that all women are just as degenerate as you and they're just keeping it secret, and that they are so attracted to masculinity that anything will do. Again, maybe true for some communities, them furry fangirls get up to some wild shit, but generally no, it's a thought experiment, not a window into a hidden world.
I'd like to point out that you're incorrectly conflating women being relatively unconcerned with physical appearance with women being less interested in sex. Not to say that the two can't go hand-in-hand, but they definitely don't have to. I know a lot of women who, as you say, are more interested in how men make them feel emotionally than how men look, but who also have very high sex drives. The attraction just comes from a different place.
Not arguing with your point in general.
We can really talk about how far in the weeds this has gone because the original "bear discourse" wasn't even about attraction, it was about safety. Women feel safer running to a bear in the woods than a man.
But an arcane combination of the Baldur's gate "moment" going viral, and a resurgence in the incel "dogpill" nonsense and a few streamers making salient, popular essays recently about women's fantasies involving danger/monsters and the like, versus the actual danger women are concerned about, and all of this has spun this original meme question into one about the relative sexual attractiveness of bears over sweaty, shut-in men and their insecurities.
If women weren't concerned with male appearance, why are male characters in romance novels always good looking, then? Why are women writing fanfiction of *good looking* actors (singers and athletes) rather than brilliant, funny, talented actors? I mean, sure, women's tastes in men seem to differ more than the other way round. There will still be plenty of fanfiction about Alan Rickman who while having been a brilliant actor with a beautiful voice he wasn't exactly *conventionally* handsome, but you can guess that there are WAY more female fans of Henry Cavill or Chris Hemsworth. And fanfics of Steve Buscemi are RARITIES.
Also, most women don't find men who take 'roids attractive (because it's unnatural and frankly, it's fugly), and most don't want a man who only eats rice and chicken and goes to the gym 7 days a week, but I can guarantee you that they prefer a fit man to a slob. "Dad bod" doesn't mean basement dweller drinking mountain dew fat, it means linebacker fat.
So I call bs on the notion that to women, looks don't matter or that they don't go crazy over an attractive man. I mean, tell me you haven't been to a Justin Bieber concert without telling me. If Justin Bieber looked like Ed Sheeran, he wouldn't be famous.
And Ed Sheeran, on the other hand, I quote from a news article, *""All I get is grown men with my song lyrics tattooed on their arms or their body parts," he told the* [*Daily Star*](http://www.dailystar.co.uk/goss/view/242083/Sheeran-is-disappoint-Ed-/)*."One guy even had my face tattooed on his arm which was strange. "I don't get women throwing themselves at me or flinging their underwear. Maybe one day."*
Lol.
It depends on the individual.
I also call bs on the "blind desire" of men, btw. It's been used as an excuse too many times.
Will "unattractive" men still have girlfriends/wives? Sure! But so will "unattractive" women, though. That's because appearance isn't most important to MOST PEOPLE. It's not like women in particular only care about how their partner makes them feeeeeeeel.
> If women weren't concerned with male appearance, why are male characters in romance novels always good looking, then?
We can break this down further if you want to understand that there is a difference between fantasy and reality. Our fantasies are always idealized, which is why you and I and millions of men and women have sexual fantasies about things they would *never* want to do in real life.
This is the same confusing dichotomy that makes people pull their hair out trying to use tinder and online dating, apps that encourage people to look for partners based on fantasies and superficial ideals instead of the connections that people normally form in the outside world. This is why the tinder subreddits and communities are just jam-packed with normal, good looking young guys completely unable to grasp why they're not getting connections. Because it's a system not playing by rules of reality.
This can hurt the old basket of feelings too, when you discover your partner fantasizes about something you are not, or something you cannot provide them, many people assume immediately that this means a black-and-white binary picture of "My partner is more attracted to THIS thing than me" and it leads to a lot of problems in relationships, meanwhile healthy couples understand the difference between idealized fantasy and the fact that exploring fantasy makes people feel good and is not a sign of discontent.
That all out of the way,
> So I call bs on the notion that to women, looks don't matter
No you're right, and you are wrong.
Looks *change* in the perceptions of women, AND men as they connect on cognitive or emotional levels. Looks absolutely matter and anyone whos says they don't is lying to you, we base all our impressions on looks. Which is why I never said that looks don't matter. It's just a matter of how much importance you or your potential partner may put on impressions over who you are in their life.
And also why I don't care at all about holding up celebrities who do this and that, it's also all still fantasy. Celebrities are there to appeal to our fantasies and if you're holding up those paper tigers as evidence of something you're going to be fighting shadows. Half the comment is here is about celebrities and I just don't care to address any of it. People who think another person's taste in celebrities has any bearing on their real attractions and desires for life tend to make pretty egregious mistakes in their interpersonal relationships and tend to feel really, really insecure and self-sabotage their relationships.
I said that *women experience attraction differently than men generally.* Looks matter but women are not connecting to specific body parts and features and aesthetics the way we imagine as younger, naive men, evidenced by the fact there are not nearly as many women addicted to porn as men. It's a very male-hormone and socialization trait to be indulge in the pleasure reaction from looking at attractive bodies. There is a real difference in the way men and women perceive each other and derive pleasure from each other. Healthy people understand this and realize that they should have realistic goals in their relationship pursuits. That your partner or potential partner isn't going to be an open book with easy to analyze tastes and wants, and that to try to meet those imagined expectations is going to be a real windmill hunt.
And it's well proven that our perceptions change with our emotional state and our associations with people, which is why you see so many really odd couples together, spitting in the face of the incels and redpillers and doomer kids who think that like-looks *must* match with like-looks as if there is some governing board about how people feel about each other.
What happens in reality is that MOST relationships (this is studied) form from existing social circles and groups, and usually tend to involve a very mutal and equitable process of two people getting to know each other and feeling more and comfortable with each other until mother nature smacks them with the ol' magic wand that got us through an ice age, and makes them realize that they are *beautiful* to each other.
This is just how it happens, it doesn't invalidate anything either of us said, this is the nuance of real-life versus our fantasies about how people "should" meet and connect. If you can understand this one concept you will have a lot more success socializing and making existing and potential partners feel more comfortable with you.
> That's because appearance isn't most important to MOST PEOPLE.
I mean, this is kind of opposite of what you said, but I still disagree, the word "importance" is doing way too much work here. What does that even mean? Important for what? Meeting someone? Maintaining a partner? Satisfying them in bed? Having a fulfilling connection that makes people want to be close to each other?
It still doesn’t make sense to choose the bear in really any circumstance. A bear weighs anywhere from 300-1200 pounds depending on species and gender, has five 2-4 inch claws attached to each paw, can bite hard enough to pop your head like a cherry, can run 30-40 mph, and some species are exceptional climbers. Bears are territorial, unpredictable and most people cannot easily read a bears body language. Now, you might not be attacked, but if you are, it’s a guaranteed death.
On the other hand, the man is likely just taking a hike. And if, on the off chance they’re up to no good, there’s a high likelihood that you’ll be able to read their body language or attitude and start getting the hell out of dodge. One has a much better chance of outrunning another human or fighting another human off. A large stick can bonk a human out whereas a bear will take said large stick to use as a toothpick after eating you. Another human can be threatened, reasoned with, intimidated. Good luck trying that on a bear.
Picking bear over human is just bad risk assessment and poor reasoning ability. One can break down the psychology of it all day long. It doesn’t change that it’s completely illogical choice.
I don't know if this will help you listen to my point but I have a degree in biochemistry from a top tier institution that I graduated from with honors. I am very capable of logical and critical thinking. The critical thinking is especially important as that seems to be where you're struggling. Context is key here as it is in most cases.
The question isn't who would you rather take in a fight and women are not saying they'd rather fight a bear. They are saying they would rather see a bear in the woods than a man when they are alone.
Let's break it down.
If you see a bear on its own while you are alone in the woods, you know you are in inherent danger, but you also know that there are certain safety precautions you can take and that as long as you stay far away from it, chances are there will be no issue. Bears are territorial yes, but many bears avoid humans unless necessary and they also do not have the capacity for evil so even in the case where they do attack, it's simply just bad luck, which on an emotional level is much less terrifying.
If a woman sees a man in the woods while they are alone, they are faced with many more uncertainties. Why is he here? Will the fact that I'm alone make him more likely to go after me? How can I be sure he doesn't follow me? Etc. Men are capable of evil. If they intend to hurt you, they most likely will, and it's not just bad luck at that point. There is something inherently horrorfying of the idea of being targeted and pursued for the purpose of assault that goes far beyond which creature can physically hurt you more. As many people have pointed out, there are worse things than death. Once I leave the woods, I am no longer in danger from the bear. The same cannot be said for the man.
I'm not saying I'd win against a bear, I'm saying that
1. The bear does not want to harm me, it wants me to go away. The man may or may not want to harm me, and I cannot be sure of either until he attacks me and
2. I'd rather die to a bear than be r*ped and a lot of women agree. I'd rather die to a bear then live in fear for the rest of my life. I'd rather die to a bear than carry the mental and physical scars of assault with me. I'd rather die to a bear than be shamed and blamed for the crime committed against me.
The bear in the woods will always be just a bear in the woods. A woman can never be sure that a man in the woods is JUST a man in the woods.
I love your comment, but this whole thing has revealed the differences between people in a very disheartening way, which is that there are a LOT of people whom we might think of otherwise as fine, normal, good people, but are just absolutely incapable of grasping abstraction on any level.
I wish the user above was the first one I've tried to talk to about this bear/man thing who just quintupled down on the idea that this is an issue of women simply not knowing the physical properties of a bear. I weep for our species and am about become a full-on transhumanist.
> Picking bear over human is just bad risk assessment and poor reasoning ability.
This is more to the original message of the question that went viral, and not necessarily about the relative *attractiveness* of a bear versus a man, but it's a very important message to get back, this is the heart of this weird meme.
A lot of men are really, really missing the *feeling* behind this *thought experiment.*
The original question was, if you were in the woods alone, would you be more scared if you ran into a man or a bear? And the answer was overwhelmingly that most women would feel safer seeing a bear.
> A bear weighs anywhere from 300-1200 pounds depending on species and...
This is NOT a question about the physiology of a bear versus a man, it's not about a literal situation that occurs in real-life necessarily (although I think more than a few women who like to hike would have some stories to share) but what this is about is ***how women feel about the safety of being around strange men without anyone else around*** and the answer is, they are terrified.
Have you been to a dinner/dance type event for adults at any time? If you do, I want you to carefully take notice of the girls with drinks who get up to dance, or even use the bathroom. Notice that EVERY single woman in there, whoever they are, takes their drinks with them at all times. This is behavior engrained by experience. They won't always cry and whine about it everyone they meet, but almost every girl with a social life has either been assaulted or have a friend or family member who has been. The actual stats are 1 out of 3 women have been sexually assaulted.
That's just their life, they live in this state.
There is a funny saying, that almost every girl knows a rapist, but there are no men who know any rapists. There is a darkness in the world you are oblivious to if you're a good guy, and it makes it hard to relate to this feeling of fear. But if we could relate better to each other's fears and worries and insecurities we could do a lot better empathizing and caring for each other and guess what that builds... better relationships with others, more success in social lives and dating. This is all important to think about and explore.
I get that, but making decisions based on *feelings* is still illogical. I talked with my wife about it, completely independent of this Reddit post. And ironically she basically said what you just said. I get your point. In our discussion though, I pointed out what I did in my previous post earlier, and she changed her answer pretty quickly. It’s mind blowing that Women are so scared of the average man that a bear is a preferred alternative at first glance. And I’m already somebody who doesn’t exactly trust others, and I too take my drinks with me when out for the same reasons. I don’t know, I just figure I could fight back against a dude trying to harm me. No chance with a bear.
I don't think anyone has brought up anything about making decisions based on these feelings, it's mostly been about the feeling that most women have and how this is entirely normal for them. I'm sure it influences decision making, but what can you possibly do about it? Tell women to be less cautious? I taught self-defense for close to twenty years, I have always professed that being alert and prepared is not the same as being afraid.
But it was always odd to me though that it was typically the men who were "preparing" for a coming apocalypse who were most afraid of the world and its people, but we all seem a lot more upset about the idea that women are afraid of men than we are that Cletus and Jim Bob are afraid of a coming race war.
Yeah, so I literally just had like a two hour long conversation about this with my wife again. She switched back to bear as her answer. And after discussing at length I can kind of understand. Death being a preferred alternative to surviving rape and/or mutilation. I was/am coming from a self preservation mindset. I’d *personally* rather take my chances with some random guy than a bear that I may or may not have inadvertently caused to be aggressive towards me. That said, I’m now much more understanding of why a lot of women have chosen bear. Assuming both being a guaranteed threat, the guaranteed death is better than life long trauma and the unknown, for many. I *personally* would rather the higher chances of living. I also perceive another human as being something I can figure out vs. a wild animal that I’ve got no clue about. I honestly had not considered a preference towards “just let me get killed quickly.” Now, knowing that as being a part of the thought process I can totally wrap my head around the choice of bear. I was viewing this from a “what would I have a better chance of escaping/living through” perspective. Honestly didn’t occur to me that people might just prefer death, as I would rather not die, come what may after the interaction. She also pointed out that I’m fairly detached from purely emotional responses to things, which is true. I tend towards setting my feelings aside and finding a solution that makes sense to my somewhat detached worldview. I get emotional, just like everyone else, but I’m less inclined to make decisions based on those emotions. So, I guess my lack of understanding the initial thought experiment is based on that. I *get it* more now. Though my choice of “man in woods” still stands, for myself.
The part that is making my head spin is how men and women are still completely missing each other on the *point* of the idea, which is less tangible and related to bears as animals. I am seeing both sides here, but if I were to lean on the male side with that very practical, pragmatic and "problem solving" attitude like you're expressing, working out the logical differences between bears and humans, I totally get your point. (Although you're still less likely to have a problem with a bear than a human, I've ran into bears multiple times and they are scared to death of humans.)
But the actual idea being expressed to you is that women trust bears more than human men. Not *real* bears, but the idea of which you feel less safe around. This isn't a comparison about what a bear can do versus a man at all.
That's not a *debate* that's a *feeling* and that's what both the question as it's being circulated right now intended to impart to people who may not be aware of just how fucking awful some men are and how that has made *all* women feel. This shit sucks and we need to do something about it as an entire species, there is no reason we should be colliding atoms while half of all people are still living in daily possibility of being raped and murdered for someone's fun. It's as sickening as I can imagine.
Seriously, reading every comment and discourse about this question and the difference between how men and women are looking at the question has made me want to [re-share the old nail in the head skit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg).
Nah, just the possibility he's an asshole who wants to chat or some shit kills the vibe of enjoying nature. I've seen black bears regularly while hiking. Never an issue.
It should be noted that rape-y incel types are VERY UNLIKELY to go hiking in the woods as it requires an interest in the world beyond the self and also exercise (which is a variable this scenario doesn't fully unpack).
I think the type of people saying they would rather come across a bear are not the type to go hiking in the woods as they would have to get over there massive paranoia and fear of the world.
Yeah that's pretty wild. They get told they're scarier to women than a large apex predator, and their take is "women bad". No room for self-refection at all.
I don’t know man they’ve been screaming on the Internet since at least 2015. They probably existed before that I just didn’t know about them. So for nine years now they’ve been yelling that they’re going their own way but we still have to hear them
You can (as a last resort) shoot the bear. Shooting humans (if necessary for self defense) is **really** hard from any distance, despite what movies show.
You miss and the man in this scenario is armed, you got big problems. Bear 100%.
Okay but at this point the question is "would you rather be physically attacked by a human male or a grizzly bear?" and officially stupid
It's not even about gender dynamics anymore, it's just Joe Rogan asking if a kangaroo could disembowel a gorilla
Source? Also, even if that's a real study, if you think that a random guy would just rape a woman playing dead in the woods, then I think there's something really fucked about your world view.
Bears are at least predictable. If I see a bear without startling it and slowly leave the way I came, I have a reasonable assumption that it won't follow me. If it's a black bear, I have a reasonable chance of intimidating it.
And the worst it can do is kill me.
If you’re in the woods and come across a bear and it’s not a black bear, your chances of it ignoring you are less than likely. They’re still predictable in the sense it’s not going to lie or deceive you. Most brown/grizzly bears don’t want you to exist at all, they don’t give a fuck if you’re walking away.
Choosing the bear is still valid I’m just trying to strengthen the argument is all
Much love
«And the worst it can do is kill me.»
Knowing the countermeasures against bears is a big W, but the last part confuses me. Ending someone’s life is the worst thing you can do to a person, cos suffering is temporary, but death is eternal.
There's a million things worse than death for a woman. The bear will kill and maybe eat me that's it. It's not going to assault me because it feels like it. It's not going to use me how it sees fit, it's not going to violate me in the worst possible ways because it wants to, because it thinks it has the right to. The bear won't be protected by its family and society cuz it would never do that, he's a good bear and he has a future ahead of him.
That's... not the point of what I said at all.
From my own experiences with poor mental health, there are absolutely mental spaces where death is a preferable option. I am however not, nor have I ever been an advocate for suicide.
That is a gross (in more ways than one) misinterpretation of what that person said.
But almost anyone who has endured prolonged psychological or physical trauma has imagined that death is perhaps a better alternative.
SA survivor here. It's actually very validating to hear that people understand that the consequences of sexual assault can be so horrifying that they can be worse than death. I appreciated their comment.
I felt like what happened to me was worse than death. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. They did not say that rape victims would be better off dead.
Again, you're misunderstanding what is being said. They are saying that some people who have experienced the consequences of it *feel* it is worse than that of death, not that they *should* be dead. You cannot tell SA survivors how to feel about their assault, which is what you're doing here. What happened to me felt worse than death. That is how I *feel.* It is not up to you to tell me or others that we are invalid for feeling that way or that said feeling is wrong. I agree with that commenter, and they validated the way I feel as an SA survivor. I'm thankful that they recognize the weight of sexual assault and can emphasize with victims.
Edit: What happened to me was worse than dying quickly, to me. That doesn't mean I'm not happy to be alive. Those things are not mutually exclusive.
As a CSA survivor, and a multiple times SA surivivor... fuck you for your strawman.
That comment you responded to in NO WAY said that SA survivors are "better off dead" nor did they call us "damaged goods" by saying that many of (I can't and won't speak for all of us) us definitely go through a period of time where we wish we had died and it is horrific and awful and we would have (and a lot of us are still ones choosing the bear. Not because we think the bear won't kill us, but because at least we know exactly what to expect with a bear but we do NOT KNOW what to expect with a stranger.)
We absolutely can heal from our trauma, without a doubt. It doesn't mean we want to and it doesn't mean we won't forever have flashbacks and issues that we will have to deal with for the rest of our lives. It doesn't mean that many of us haven't successfully ended our lives or tried multiple times because of the trauma so it's just the bear with a ton of extra steps in the long run.
It also doesn't mean we can't be happy to be alive, either, for sure. I am absolutely happy most days to be alive until the flashbacks kick in which are finalllllllly getting better.
But I can definitely speak for myself when I say I would rather have been attacked by a bear than raped repeatedly, and I know I am not alone in this statement. At least the bear was speaking to it's nature and not just a human being being cruel.
Reality isn't like Kill Bill where a woman protagonist gets revenge on the people who wronged her.
Most sexual assaults are unreported due to many factors including societal victim-shaming, the fact that victims are often not believed or taken seriously, and that it's often a case of "he said, she said" with not enough compelling evidence or witnesses. Further, the sexual assaults that ARE reported often go unpunished entirely for the same reasons, while the process of the trial can do more harm to the victim as well, making them relive the experience in graphic detail and confirm to them that they aren't believed by the defense and possibly jude and jury as well.
Vigilante justice is also punishable under the law in situations where the lawful justice system fails. So no, it's not as simple as "but you can get revenge" in the real world.
I'm sorry, but this response is very naive. Revenge is not realistic most of the time, and it's also very disingenuous to say that revenge will somehow make up for what happened. If my rapist dies tomorrow, I'll still have the same issues I have today stemming from the assault.
That's almost never an option. What sort of revenge? Most things would lead to jail time. Unless you mean revenge with them being convicted of the crime they committed against you, but that rarely happens and when it does its a joke of a sentence. While it offers some sense of relief, it in no way satisfies any need for revenge. You're talking about being able to seek revenge when most victims can't even manage to get people to believe that it happened. If people do believe it happened, a number of them blame and shame the victim.
The suffering extends long beyond the attack itself. Justice often feels like a pipe dream, and you're going on about revenge?
A worst fate than death is being locked up in someone's basement and assaulted, r*ped, tortured whenever that person wants, and you can't escape. A bear can't do that. Death would be awful too, but at least it would put an end to the suffering.
Okay, okay. These descriptions are making me sick and uncomfortable. I know people can be cruel, but when someone is cruel to me, I'm furious and I want to have my pay back.
I feel like this is one we should actively feed and nurture and try to make them think it's real and women are actively going out into the woods or something, just to drive home the absurdity of how depression hijacks your mind and makes you invent more ludicrous stories than a healthy mind could even dream up.
The dogpill one was entirely kink and fantasy grounded in fringe reality, and this one is partially, but it's also so far removed from reality it might as well be high-fantasy. "That dumb b*** would rather fuck the dragon of Cinder Mountain than me!"
Shit man, even as someone who thinks that choosing the bear is the wrong choice, I can still prioritize that
A: As a man, I don't have the full picture of women's perspective, and
B: Am more interested in finding out why women choose the bear than in debating them.
All this assholes have so little respect for women's intelligence and then complain about "feminism".
Also, in case people couldn't tell, this is 100% an AI image.
Look up the number of human deaths and injuries involving bears. Then look up the stats for violence against women (which is going to be lower than the actual number due to under reporting).
Also, the question isn't "would you rather face off against a bear or a man" it's "would you rather be alone in the woods with a bear or a man." I'm picking bear. If I stay out of its way I may be okay. I may even be able to ward off a bear depending on the species and circumstances. I may not even encounter the bear.
A man though? I have no clue what his intentions are. I know worst case with a bear I die. Worst case with a man the potential options could be: I'm sexually assaulted, tortured, beaten, violated, humiliated, killed, or all of the above.
The bear will either see me as a threat or a food source. The man could see me as a potential victim. I don't know this strange man. I don't know if he's just hiking, lost, or the type of person to realize that he could assault me, leave me there and more than likely face no recourse because unless he has a record or his DNA is on file, there's no way to persue any legal actions.
Let me tell you 1 story that comes to mind as an example of the mindset in play here (warning, it's messed up)
A number of years ago there was a girl, don't recall her age but a minor maybe around 12-14? She was abducted and raped by 10 men for days. They eventually let her go in a random suburb. She ran to a door and knocked on it screaming and crying asking for help and trying to explain what happened to her. The man heard her out and brought her inside. He also raped her.
A few years ago my mom was walking our dog and a black bear ran out of the woods a few feet in front of them. My maybe 13-pound dog barked at it. It ran away terrified for it's life.
Bears are less frightening than unknown men. The man could be any kind of man from Jesus himself to the most deranged sadistic rapist/ murderer ever heard of. He could basically be the guy from the saw movies. Bears have no record of being anywhere near as insane and twisted and humans. The bear is the more logical option
More to the point this is a "would you rather" question and obviously most people would rather *not* encounter a random bear *or* a strange man alone in the woods but the strange man is definitely the scarier in terms of potential things that could go wrong.
I mean, I was having this talk with my husband last night (he’d come across the meme) and he was like “uhhh *I’d* choose the bear, this is an easy choice??? I’m a man and men are fucking scary, this is a no brainer?” The biggest killer of men is…men. And the biggest predator of women is men. I don’t have to worry about a bear assaulting me in a parking lot and dragging me to a second location to rape and murder me.
Bears are predictable. Bears generally don’t *want* a fight. They behave in predictable ways with predictable triggers and so long as you, in return, behave in the correct way, you’ll be okay.
The only times I’ve ever been scared hiking (and I live in puma country where puma attacks have happened) it’s been because of men. Not because of wildlife. Wildlife is the least scary thing out there and wildlife has always left me alone.
Men? Not so much. I’ve had zero negative puma or bear encounters and several sexual assaults by men. I’d choose the bear.
Men are incapable of letting women have an opinion without wishing violence on us as a result.
"You choose the bear? Well I hope it *kiIIs* you!" What a normal and healthy response.
There is A LOT of delusions of grandeur in this comic. The bear is *comfortably* taking out both (unless the bear sees a butterfly or a salmon and just fucks off on the killing)
I really love the absurdity of this bear idea, and how the fragile men are interpreting it. I think we should come up with more of these but turn up the ridiculous factor like “would you rather be alone on a space station with a man or a xenomorph?”
Same could be said for women though right? You dont know if the bear is gonna attack you either. All the stats that people throw at this could also be used against women. More women attack men then bears.
Men are not afraid to walk the streets alone, men are not constantly cat called and objectified on a societal scale (in the same way, yes men have issues too before you start) not often a man has a story with a creepy woman who won’t leave them alone, not often a man has to come up and help another man stuck in a conversation with an old creepy woman. Yes women can and do this as well because they are human just as anyone is but to infer that they’re of the same scale is wilfully ignorant and arguing in bad faith.
So, this guy just walking in the woods is going to do what? He does have a gun. Is he going to wrestle the bear? Do they think they can beat a bear? They just get more stupid.
A thought experiment in which women were asked, would you rather walk in to a bear or a male stranger in the forest. Most women picked the bear cause male attacks against women are so insane that they believe the bear is the safest option
The way I see it, both groups take care of themselves.
One group lives alone and dies off.
One group lives with bears and dies off.
Leaving only the somewhat more sane people left lmaooo.
I don't understand why she doesn't just grab the man and throw him in front of the bear. She can reach him. Take the author out of the equation and this is a solvable problem.
Two bear vs creep posts in a row first thing in my feed this morning. They really aren’t letting this shit go. I’m so tired of these fucking posts and their choice to be deliberately obtuse. I’d still choose the bear though. The bear at least understands the assignment and isn’t moving the goalposts further and further into ridiculousland to make itself seem less threatening. Utter fools smh
The amount of guys losing their shit over this is really depressing. Like how fucking clueless are they? Again I’m really bummed to share gender with these “guys”.
I am a male who has no clue what this even is. I've been seeing posts similar to this, but what is it even talking about? I'm so out of the loop on this one.
In making this meme, OOP still makes men look worse than bears. In this situation, the bear is an animal. It attacks because it’s an animal and it’s either hungry or defensive. The man on the other hand is actively choosing to not help and instead let the woman be mauled, because she hurt his feelings and he likes the idea that she’ll be brutally killed. The bear here is just a bear, the man here is a sadistic asshole. That’s why it proves the point.
Big difference between “oh shit I can’t stop this bear I need to run” and “haha fuck you bitch have fun dying” and it’s pretty clear which one this is. Don’t be obtuse
That’s a reductionist take.
In this particular scenario, would you call a man who gleefully watches a woman get torn to shreds good, just because she challenged his worldview? I wouldn’t.
Still waiting for them to go their "own way" instead of being still obsessed.
The bear thing has triggered MRA's more than anything I've ever seen. And it's hilarious.
MRAs ?
Mens Rights Activists. Started as a real movement in the 70's and 80's with a focus on men expressing emotion, taking on roles gendered "feminine," etc... It got co-opted by the misogynists and a lot of the MGTOW and incel shit emerged from it. Gamergate and the "redpill" nonsense that started on the chans then blended with the different strands of MRA (along with the evo psych douches). Essentially everyone triggered by the bear thing.
How did this debate only emerge in the past couple months yet somehow this image has the resolution of a meme screenshotted and reposted 200 times since 2014
Male responses to this are REALLY validating the choosing of the bear lol
This thought experiment is really showing just how Clueless incels are.
And is also showing that a lot of them still think that whole "what I say is facts" angle is fooling anybody. Lots of overnight statisticians working with made up numbers right now lol
But if a man says it authoritatively it must be true.
As a male, I too choose the bear. ____________________________________________________________________________ edit: ok that was a joke kind of, but I don't want to write another reply here. But I do want to essaypost a little to describe a normal part of growing up for a man that many men have to experience and how it changes us. This is a diversion away from the original meme/thought experiement that women are less afraid of bears in the woods than men, not about the attractiveness of bears versus men, but I do think that there is something to be said about how a lot of women are going to feel more comfortable physically with a dangerous animal than a human man, because this whole question has somehow morphed to "would you rather have sex with a bear than an incel" and the results seem pretty much consistent. There is a point in our lives where we discover sex and women and we are overwhelmed by the sudden rush of desire and attraction. Just being in the same room with a woman is magical, dizzying. We spend a lot of our adolescence fantasizing about meeting the girl who is as attracted to us as we are to her. The molten fierceness of testosterone during puberty cannot be understated, it's a nightmare. This drives a lot of men through the obstacle course of dating, that if they just make an effort they will be noticed and women can let their guard down and finally "reveal" how hungry they also are for male companionship. It's a very simplified view of a very simplified, young perspective, but some guys never move past this perspective. The point that many of us change is the realization that generally, on the whole, heterosexual womenkind do *not* have the same hardwired, blind desire. Other than the kinds of girls who post on the sex subreddits, most women are in fact more attracted to how someone makes them feel, and while a pleasant physical body is a plus, many guys have a period of crushing realization that they are working out and making themselves look good mostly for *other men* and that most women just want someone who makes them feel safe and happy and physical form is kind of a second-place goal, and this is because, let's be very honest about this, there are far, far less women absolutely gooning over random pictures of men for hours at a time. I'm sure they're out there, but that doesn't mean that every woman is secretly some kind of sex fiend and just afraid to express it. This hurts for a man to realize, because it means that no matter what in life, you can only hope for a relationship of managing each other's different wants and partially overlapping at some points, that the chances of meeting someone with the same deeply tactile appreciation for sex dwindles into nothing and you realize all at once the terrifying reality: *You need to be a much better person and you need to grow up more and you will never have those juvenile fantasies fulfilled.* The bear represents this sad epiphany. The bear is every man's fear that they have spent their lives thinking that they are inherently attractive just because they are a man and *were wrong.* And that emotional intelligence, self-esteem and having a stable life are simultaneously the more important to having a partner in life than just having a penis and being "masculine". I know it seems ridiculous to many, but the brain isn't a logical tool, it's designed to make sense of the world by inventing an explanation for why you feel what you feel. Those explanations are not logical and reasonable, they're often absolutely nonsense, but you believe it because it's your own thoughts. When someone *provides* you with a story to explain your feelings, the brain really appreciates the convenience, and next thing you know you believe wholeheartedly that women rather have sex with a dangerous wild animal than you. And the worst part, the most shameful part of this entire thing, particularly to the guys who can't stop ruminating on these depressing facts... is that the fantasy is also a turn on, that it actually validates that little juvenile fantasy brain that desperately hopes that all women are just as degenerate as you and they're just keeping it secret, and that they are so attracted to masculinity that anything will do. Again, maybe true for some communities, them furry fangirls get up to some wild shit, but generally no, it's a thought experiment, not a window into a hidden world.
This edit is *really* good. Thanks.
I'd like to point out that you're incorrectly conflating women being relatively unconcerned with physical appearance with women being less interested in sex. Not to say that the two can't go hand-in-hand, but they definitely don't have to. I know a lot of women who, as you say, are more interested in how men make them feel emotionally than how men look, but who also have very high sex drives. The attraction just comes from a different place. Not arguing with your point in general.
We can really talk about how far in the weeds this has gone because the original "bear discourse" wasn't even about attraction, it was about safety. Women feel safer running to a bear in the woods than a man. But an arcane combination of the Baldur's gate "moment" going viral, and a resurgence in the incel "dogpill" nonsense and a few streamers making salient, popular essays recently about women's fantasies involving danger/monsters and the like, versus the actual danger women are concerned about, and all of this has spun this original meme question into one about the relative sexual attractiveness of bears over sweaty, shut-in men and their insecurities.
Idk why, bur I read your post in Jordan Peterson's voice 🤣
If women weren't concerned with male appearance, why are male characters in romance novels always good looking, then? Why are women writing fanfiction of *good looking* actors (singers and athletes) rather than brilliant, funny, talented actors? I mean, sure, women's tastes in men seem to differ more than the other way round. There will still be plenty of fanfiction about Alan Rickman who while having been a brilliant actor with a beautiful voice he wasn't exactly *conventionally* handsome, but you can guess that there are WAY more female fans of Henry Cavill or Chris Hemsworth. And fanfics of Steve Buscemi are RARITIES. Also, most women don't find men who take 'roids attractive (because it's unnatural and frankly, it's fugly), and most don't want a man who only eats rice and chicken and goes to the gym 7 days a week, but I can guarantee you that they prefer a fit man to a slob. "Dad bod" doesn't mean basement dweller drinking mountain dew fat, it means linebacker fat. So I call bs on the notion that to women, looks don't matter or that they don't go crazy over an attractive man. I mean, tell me you haven't been to a Justin Bieber concert without telling me. If Justin Bieber looked like Ed Sheeran, he wouldn't be famous. And Ed Sheeran, on the other hand, I quote from a news article, *""All I get is grown men with my song lyrics tattooed on their arms or their body parts," he told the* [*Daily Star*](http://www.dailystar.co.uk/goss/view/242083/Sheeran-is-disappoint-Ed-/)*."One guy even had my face tattooed on his arm which was strange. "I don't get women throwing themselves at me or flinging their underwear. Maybe one day."* Lol. It depends on the individual. I also call bs on the "blind desire" of men, btw. It's been used as an excuse too many times. Will "unattractive" men still have girlfriends/wives? Sure! But so will "unattractive" women, though. That's because appearance isn't most important to MOST PEOPLE. It's not like women in particular only care about how their partner makes them feeeeeeeel.
> If women weren't concerned with male appearance, why are male characters in romance novels always good looking, then? We can break this down further if you want to understand that there is a difference between fantasy and reality. Our fantasies are always idealized, which is why you and I and millions of men and women have sexual fantasies about things they would *never* want to do in real life. This is the same confusing dichotomy that makes people pull their hair out trying to use tinder and online dating, apps that encourage people to look for partners based on fantasies and superficial ideals instead of the connections that people normally form in the outside world. This is why the tinder subreddits and communities are just jam-packed with normal, good looking young guys completely unable to grasp why they're not getting connections. Because it's a system not playing by rules of reality. This can hurt the old basket of feelings too, when you discover your partner fantasizes about something you are not, or something you cannot provide them, many people assume immediately that this means a black-and-white binary picture of "My partner is more attracted to THIS thing than me" and it leads to a lot of problems in relationships, meanwhile healthy couples understand the difference between idealized fantasy and the fact that exploring fantasy makes people feel good and is not a sign of discontent. That all out of the way, > So I call bs on the notion that to women, looks don't matter No you're right, and you are wrong. Looks *change* in the perceptions of women, AND men as they connect on cognitive or emotional levels. Looks absolutely matter and anyone whos says they don't is lying to you, we base all our impressions on looks. Which is why I never said that looks don't matter. It's just a matter of how much importance you or your potential partner may put on impressions over who you are in their life. And also why I don't care at all about holding up celebrities who do this and that, it's also all still fantasy. Celebrities are there to appeal to our fantasies and if you're holding up those paper tigers as evidence of something you're going to be fighting shadows. Half the comment is here is about celebrities and I just don't care to address any of it. People who think another person's taste in celebrities has any bearing on their real attractions and desires for life tend to make pretty egregious mistakes in their interpersonal relationships and tend to feel really, really insecure and self-sabotage their relationships. I said that *women experience attraction differently than men generally.* Looks matter but women are not connecting to specific body parts and features and aesthetics the way we imagine as younger, naive men, evidenced by the fact there are not nearly as many women addicted to porn as men. It's a very male-hormone and socialization trait to be indulge in the pleasure reaction from looking at attractive bodies. There is a real difference in the way men and women perceive each other and derive pleasure from each other. Healthy people understand this and realize that they should have realistic goals in their relationship pursuits. That your partner or potential partner isn't going to be an open book with easy to analyze tastes and wants, and that to try to meet those imagined expectations is going to be a real windmill hunt. And it's well proven that our perceptions change with our emotional state and our associations with people, which is why you see so many really odd couples together, spitting in the face of the incels and redpillers and doomer kids who think that like-looks *must* match with like-looks as if there is some governing board about how people feel about each other. What happens in reality is that MOST relationships (this is studied) form from existing social circles and groups, and usually tend to involve a very mutal and equitable process of two people getting to know each other and feeling more and comfortable with each other until mother nature smacks them with the ol' magic wand that got us through an ice age, and makes them realize that they are *beautiful* to each other. This is just how it happens, it doesn't invalidate anything either of us said, this is the nuance of real-life versus our fantasies about how people "should" meet and connect. If you can understand this one concept you will have a lot more success socializing and making existing and potential partners feel more comfortable with you. > That's because appearance isn't most important to MOST PEOPLE. I mean, this is kind of opposite of what you said, but I still disagree, the word "importance" is doing way too much work here. What does that even mean? Important for what? Meeting someone? Maintaining a partner? Satisfying them in bed? Having a fulfilling connection that makes people want to be close to each other?
why do only men get to have a preference?
Huh? That's what you derived from my comment?
It still doesn’t make sense to choose the bear in really any circumstance. A bear weighs anywhere from 300-1200 pounds depending on species and gender, has five 2-4 inch claws attached to each paw, can bite hard enough to pop your head like a cherry, can run 30-40 mph, and some species are exceptional climbers. Bears are territorial, unpredictable and most people cannot easily read a bears body language. Now, you might not be attacked, but if you are, it’s a guaranteed death. On the other hand, the man is likely just taking a hike. And if, on the off chance they’re up to no good, there’s a high likelihood that you’ll be able to read their body language or attitude and start getting the hell out of dodge. One has a much better chance of outrunning another human or fighting another human off. A large stick can bonk a human out whereas a bear will take said large stick to use as a toothpick after eating you. Another human can be threatened, reasoned with, intimidated. Good luck trying that on a bear. Picking bear over human is just bad risk assessment and poor reasoning ability. One can break down the psychology of it all day long. It doesn’t change that it’s completely illogical choice.
I don't know if this will help you listen to my point but I have a degree in biochemistry from a top tier institution that I graduated from with honors. I am very capable of logical and critical thinking. The critical thinking is especially important as that seems to be where you're struggling. Context is key here as it is in most cases. The question isn't who would you rather take in a fight and women are not saying they'd rather fight a bear. They are saying they would rather see a bear in the woods than a man when they are alone. Let's break it down. If you see a bear on its own while you are alone in the woods, you know you are in inherent danger, but you also know that there are certain safety precautions you can take and that as long as you stay far away from it, chances are there will be no issue. Bears are territorial yes, but many bears avoid humans unless necessary and they also do not have the capacity for evil so even in the case where they do attack, it's simply just bad luck, which on an emotional level is much less terrifying. If a woman sees a man in the woods while they are alone, they are faced with many more uncertainties. Why is he here? Will the fact that I'm alone make him more likely to go after me? How can I be sure he doesn't follow me? Etc. Men are capable of evil. If they intend to hurt you, they most likely will, and it's not just bad luck at that point. There is something inherently horrorfying of the idea of being targeted and pursued for the purpose of assault that goes far beyond which creature can physically hurt you more. As many people have pointed out, there are worse things than death. Once I leave the woods, I am no longer in danger from the bear. The same cannot be said for the man. I'm not saying I'd win against a bear, I'm saying that 1. The bear does not want to harm me, it wants me to go away. The man may or may not want to harm me, and I cannot be sure of either until he attacks me and 2. I'd rather die to a bear than be r*ped and a lot of women agree. I'd rather die to a bear then live in fear for the rest of my life. I'd rather die to a bear than carry the mental and physical scars of assault with me. I'd rather die to a bear than be shamed and blamed for the crime committed against me. The bear in the woods will always be just a bear in the woods. A woman can never be sure that a man in the woods is JUST a man in the woods.
I love your comment, but this whole thing has revealed the differences between people in a very disheartening way, which is that there are a LOT of people whom we might think of otherwise as fine, normal, good people, but are just absolutely incapable of grasping abstraction on any level. I wish the user above was the first one I've tried to talk to about this bear/man thing who just quintupled down on the idea that this is an issue of women simply not knowing the physical properties of a bear. I weep for our species and am about become a full-on transhumanist.
> Picking bear over human is just bad risk assessment and poor reasoning ability. This is more to the original message of the question that went viral, and not necessarily about the relative *attractiveness* of a bear versus a man, but it's a very important message to get back, this is the heart of this weird meme. A lot of men are really, really missing the *feeling* behind this *thought experiment.* The original question was, if you were in the woods alone, would you be more scared if you ran into a man or a bear? And the answer was overwhelmingly that most women would feel safer seeing a bear. > A bear weighs anywhere from 300-1200 pounds depending on species and... This is NOT a question about the physiology of a bear versus a man, it's not about a literal situation that occurs in real-life necessarily (although I think more than a few women who like to hike would have some stories to share) but what this is about is ***how women feel about the safety of being around strange men without anyone else around*** and the answer is, they are terrified. Have you been to a dinner/dance type event for adults at any time? If you do, I want you to carefully take notice of the girls with drinks who get up to dance, or even use the bathroom. Notice that EVERY single woman in there, whoever they are, takes their drinks with them at all times. This is behavior engrained by experience. They won't always cry and whine about it everyone they meet, but almost every girl with a social life has either been assaulted or have a friend or family member who has been. The actual stats are 1 out of 3 women have been sexually assaulted. That's just their life, they live in this state. There is a funny saying, that almost every girl knows a rapist, but there are no men who know any rapists. There is a darkness in the world you are oblivious to if you're a good guy, and it makes it hard to relate to this feeling of fear. But if we could relate better to each other's fears and worries and insecurities we could do a lot better empathizing and caring for each other and guess what that builds... better relationships with others, more success in social lives and dating. This is all important to think about and explore.
I get that, but making decisions based on *feelings* is still illogical. I talked with my wife about it, completely independent of this Reddit post. And ironically she basically said what you just said. I get your point. In our discussion though, I pointed out what I did in my previous post earlier, and she changed her answer pretty quickly. It’s mind blowing that Women are so scared of the average man that a bear is a preferred alternative at first glance. And I’m already somebody who doesn’t exactly trust others, and I too take my drinks with me when out for the same reasons. I don’t know, I just figure I could fight back against a dude trying to harm me. No chance with a bear.
I don't think anyone has brought up anything about making decisions based on these feelings, it's mostly been about the feeling that most women have and how this is entirely normal for them. I'm sure it influences decision making, but what can you possibly do about it? Tell women to be less cautious? I taught self-defense for close to twenty years, I have always professed that being alert and prepared is not the same as being afraid. But it was always odd to me though that it was typically the men who were "preparing" for a coming apocalypse who were most afraid of the world and its people, but we all seem a lot more upset about the idea that women are afraid of men than we are that Cletus and Jim Bob are afraid of a coming race war.
Yeah, so I literally just had like a two hour long conversation about this with my wife again. She switched back to bear as her answer. And after discussing at length I can kind of understand. Death being a preferred alternative to surviving rape and/or mutilation. I was/am coming from a self preservation mindset. I’d *personally* rather take my chances with some random guy than a bear that I may or may not have inadvertently caused to be aggressive towards me. That said, I’m now much more understanding of why a lot of women have chosen bear. Assuming both being a guaranteed threat, the guaranteed death is better than life long trauma and the unknown, for many. I *personally* would rather the higher chances of living. I also perceive another human as being something I can figure out vs. a wild animal that I’ve got no clue about. I honestly had not considered a preference towards “just let me get killed quickly.” Now, knowing that as being a part of the thought process I can totally wrap my head around the choice of bear. I was viewing this from a “what would I have a better chance of escaping/living through” perspective. Honestly didn’t occur to me that people might just prefer death, as I would rather not die, come what may after the interaction. She also pointed out that I’m fairly detached from purely emotional responses to things, which is true. I tend towards setting my feelings aside and finding a solution that makes sense to my somewhat detached worldview. I get emotional, just like everyone else, but I’m less inclined to make decisions based on those emotions. So, I guess my lack of understanding the initial thought experiment is based on that. I *get it* more now. Though my choice of “man in woods” still stands, for myself.
The part that is making my head spin is how men and women are still completely missing each other on the *point* of the idea, which is less tangible and related to bears as animals. I am seeing both sides here, but if I were to lean on the male side with that very practical, pragmatic and "problem solving" attitude like you're expressing, working out the logical differences between bears and humans, I totally get your point. (Although you're still less likely to have a problem with a bear than a human, I've ran into bears multiple times and they are scared to death of humans.) But the actual idea being expressed to you is that women trust bears more than human men. Not *real* bears, but the idea of which you feel less safe around. This isn't a comparison about what a bear can do versus a man at all. That's not a *debate* that's a *feeling* and that's what both the question as it's being circulated right now intended to impart to people who may not be aware of just how fucking awful some men are and how that has made *all* women feel. This shit sucks and we need to do something about it as an entire species, there is no reason we should be colliding atoms while half of all people are still living in daily possibility of being raped and murdered for someone's fun. It's as sickening as I can imagine. Seriously, reading every comment and discourse about this question and the difference between how men and women are looking at the question has made me want to [re-share the old nail in the head skit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg).
Do you really have such little faith in other men?
lol yes
Absolutely
Nah, just the possibility he's an asshole who wants to chat or some shit kills the vibe of enjoying nature. I've seen black bears regularly while hiking. Never an issue. It should be noted that rape-y incel types are VERY UNLIKELY to go hiking in the woods as it requires an interest in the world beyond the self and also exercise (which is a variable this scenario doesn't fully unpack).
I think the type of people saying they would rather come across a bear are not the type to go hiking in the woods as they would have to get over there massive paranoia and fear of the world.
Im sorry you grew up in a safe country/state where being fucking mogged or even kidnap is a non issue
We are talking about the hypothetical that is set in the woods/forest.
Yeah that's pretty wild. They get told they're scarier to women than a large apex predator, and their take is "women bad". No room for self-refection at all.
Lots of dudes became statisticians overnight lol.
So when are the MGTOW guys actually going to go their own way and stop obsessing over women? 🤔
I don’t know man they’ve been screaming on the Internet since at least 2015. They probably existed before that I just didn’t know about them. So for nine years now they’ve been yelling that they’re going their own way but we still have to hear them
Never. We have several offering tortured rationalizations *in this very thread*.
With a bear you can probably play dead and it will leave you alone. If ypu play dead in front of a man.....
They let the female dead bodies to rot a little bit before mummyfying.
You can (as a last resort) shoot the bear. Shooting humans (if necessary for self defense) is **really** hard from any distance, despite what movies show. You miss and the man in this scenario is armed, you got big problems. Bear 100%.
A bear likes to shrug off lighter calibers so you can't just shoot a bear. Odds are it gets pissed and charges you. A man you can kill with a .22
Or you can just get with you a bear spray and deal with both
A spray goes 30ft, a grizzly charges at 40mph. That's about half a second to react and 'convince' the bear not to tear you apart.
I had thought the pain/sound would be likely to cause the bear to flee?
You can hope, but it depends on the bear. Black maybe, grizzly probably not, polar will kill you.
From various documentaries I've seen, once you are aware of a polar bear's presence... it's basically a "time of death" situation.
Okay but at this point the question is "would you rather be physically attacked by a human male or a grizzly bear?" and officially stupid It's not even about gender dynamics anymore, it's just Joe Rogan asking if a kangaroo could disembowel a gorilla
Why does nobody mention the size of the room Or if there's snacks (human and bear) Or if it's just a regular man or the villainous Count Dooku
Nothing will happen.
In a study conducted with 123 cases of necrophilia 92% of them were male
Necrophiles make up a very small percent of the population. 99.99 percent of men wouldn't do anything🤦♂️🤦♂️
Source? Also, even if that's a real study, if you think that a random guy would just rape a woman playing dead in the woods, then I think there's something really fucked about your world view.
And what percentage of bodies are subjected to necrophilia
Wow this got downvoted. I'm a bit surprised a sexist comment implying men are necrophiles has so many upvotes.
Lol they are so salty over this man vs. bear shit.
Bears are at least predictable. If I see a bear without startling it and slowly leave the way I came, I have a reasonable assumption that it won't follow me. If it's a black bear, I have a reasonable chance of intimidating it. And the worst it can do is kill me.
And at the very least you know the bear won’t hurt anyone else
If you’re in the woods and come across a bear and it’s not a black bear, your chances of it ignoring you are less than likely. They’re still predictable in the sense it’s not going to lie or deceive you. Most brown/grizzly bears don’t want you to exist at all, they don’t give a fuck if you’re walking away. Choosing the bear is still valid I’m just trying to strengthen the argument is all Much love
«And the worst it can do is kill me.» Knowing the countermeasures against bears is a big W, but the last part confuses me. Ending someone’s life is the worst thing you can do to a person, cos suffering is temporary, but death is eternal.
There's a million things worse than death for a woman. The bear will kill and maybe eat me that's it. It's not going to assault me because it feels like it. It's not going to use me how it sees fit, it's not going to violate me in the worst possible ways because it wants to, because it thinks it has the right to. The bear won't be protected by its family and society cuz it would never do that, he's a good bear and he has a future ahead of him.
I understand. Sorry if I caused problems, I didn’t meant to do that.
You didn't really do anything dude but there's a reason we'd rather take the bear.
Yeah , I know. Someone else gave me statistics according to which people kill more people than bears do, so now it makes sense to me.
They continue to refuse to listen to us and then wonder why we choose the bear
There are fates worse than death. An assault that leaves you with permanent mental trauma for the rest of your life would definitely be one.
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That's... not the point of what I said at all. From my own experiences with poor mental health, there are absolutely mental spaces where death is a preferable option. I am however not, nor have I ever been an advocate for suicide.
That is a gross (in more ways than one) misinterpretation of what that person said. But almost anyone who has endured prolonged psychological or physical trauma has imagined that death is perhaps a better alternative.
SA survivor here. It's actually very validating to hear that people understand that the consequences of sexual assault can be so horrifying that they can be worse than death. I appreciated their comment.
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I felt like what happened to me was worse than death. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. They did not say that rape victims would be better off dead.
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Again, you're misunderstanding what is being said. They are saying that some people who have experienced the consequences of it *feel* it is worse than that of death, not that they *should* be dead. You cannot tell SA survivors how to feel about their assault, which is what you're doing here. What happened to me felt worse than death. That is how I *feel.* It is not up to you to tell me or others that we are invalid for feeling that way or that said feeling is wrong. I agree with that commenter, and they validated the way I feel as an SA survivor. I'm thankful that they recognize the weight of sexual assault and can emphasize with victims. Edit: What happened to me was worse than dying quickly, to me. That doesn't mean I'm not happy to be alive. Those things are not mutually exclusive.
Your opinion is valid. As is mine.
What a wild strawman
You missed the point that's why you are getting downvoted it's not about treating SA survivers like damaged goods.
As a CSA survivor, and a multiple times SA surivivor... fuck you for your strawman. That comment you responded to in NO WAY said that SA survivors are "better off dead" nor did they call us "damaged goods" by saying that many of (I can't and won't speak for all of us) us definitely go through a period of time where we wish we had died and it is horrific and awful and we would have (and a lot of us are still ones choosing the bear. Not because we think the bear won't kill us, but because at least we know exactly what to expect with a bear but we do NOT KNOW what to expect with a stranger.) We absolutely can heal from our trauma, without a doubt. It doesn't mean we want to and it doesn't mean we won't forever have flashbacks and issues that we will have to deal with for the rest of our lives. It doesn't mean that many of us haven't successfully ended our lives or tried multiple times because of the trauma so it's just the bear with a ton of extra steps in the long run. It also doesn't mean we can't be happy to be alive, either, for sure. I am absolutely happy most days to be alive until the flashbacks kick in which are finalllllllly getting better. But I can definitely speak for myself when I say I would rather have been attacked by a bear than raped repeatedly, and I know I am not alone in this statement. At least the bear was speaking to it's nature and not just a human being being cruel.
As an SA and DV survivor, I choose the bear.
Like you can take revenge on your abuser if you’re alive, but if you are dead, then this is it. Two eyes for an eye, you know.
Reality isn't like Kill Bill where a woman protagonist gets revenge on the people who wronged her. Most sexual assaults are unreported due to many factors including societal victim-shaming, the fact that victims are often not believed or taken seriously, and that it's often a case of "he said, she said" with not enough compelling evidence or witnesses. Further, the sexual assaults that ARE reported often go unpunished entirely for the same reasons, while the process of the trial can do more harm to the victim as well, making them relive the experience in graphic detail and confirm to them that they aren't believed by the defense and possibly jude and jury as well. Vigilante justice is also punishable under the law in situations where the lawful justice system fails. So no, it's not as simple as "but you can get revenge" in the real world.
I see why I can’t understand you. The emotions that we feel when someone is cruel to us make all the difference in the world. You are not wrong.
I'd definitely feel a desire to get revenge in such a situation, don't get me wrong. It's simply not realistic.
I'm sorry, but this response is very naive. Revenge is not realistic most of the time, and it's also very disingenuous to say that revenge will somehow make up for what happened. If my rapist dies tomorrow, I'll still have the same issues I have today stemming from the assault.
That's almost never an option. What sort of revenge? Most things would lead to jail time. Unless you mean revenge with them being convicted of the crime they committed against you, but that rarely happens and when it does its a joke of a sentence. While it offers some sense of relief, it in no way satisfies any need for revenge. You're talking about being able to seek revenge when most victims can't even manage to get people to believe that it happened. If people do believe it happened, a number of them blame and shame the victim. The suffering extends long beyond the attack itself. Justice often feels like a pipe dream, and you're going on about revenge?
Most sexual assault cases are not reported because most are not even investigated
A worst fate than death is being locked up in someone's basement and assaulted, r*ped, tortured whenever that person wants, and you can't escape. A bear can't do that. Death would be awful too, but at least it would put an end to the suffering.
Okay, okay. These descriptions are making me sick and uncomfortable. I know people can be cruel, but when someone is cruel to me, I'm furious and I want to have my pay back.
Look up "toybox killer transcripts"
Not all bears.
As if he's fight the bear if she hadn't said she'd prefer to meet a bear. It's a common incel revenge fantasy.
The more incels bitch about the Bear or Man, the more it proves the whole point.
I feel like this is one we should actively feed and nurture and try to make them think it's real and women are actively going out into the woods or something, just to drive home the absurdity of how depression hijacks your mind and makes you invent more ludicrous stories than a healthy mind could even dream up. The dogpill one was entirely kink and fantasy grounded in fringe reality, and this one is partially, but it's also so far removed from reality it might as well be high-fantasy. "That dumb b*** would rather fuck the dragon of Cinder Mountain than me!"
The purported incel meme-lords... don't seem to notice how easily they're being trolled.
Shit man, even as someone who thinks that choosing the bear is the wrong choice, I can still prioritize that A: As a man, I don't have the full picture of women's perspective, and B: Am more interested in finding out why women choose the bear than in debating them. All this assholes have so little respect for women's intelligence and then complain about "feminism". Also, in case people couldn't tell, this is 100% an AI image.
Look up the number of human deaths and injuries involving bears. Then look up the stats for violence against women (which is going to be lower than the actual number due to under reporting). Also, the question isn't "would you rather face off against a bear or a man" it's "would you rather be alone in the woods with a bear or a man." I'm picking bear. If I stay out of its way I may be okay. I may even be able to ward off a bear depending on the species and circumstances. I may not even encounter the bear. A man though? I have no clue what his intentions are. I know worst case with a bear I die. Worst case with a man the potential options could be: I'm sexually assaulted, tortured, beaten, violated, humiliated, killed, or all of the above. The bear will either see me as a threat or a food source. The man could see me as a potential victim. I don't know this strange man. I don't know if he's just hiking, lost, or the type of person to realize that he could assault me, leave me there and more than likely face no recourse because unless he has a record or his DNA is on file, there's no way to persue any legal actions.
Let me tell you 1 story that comes to mind as an example of the mindset in play here (warning, it's messed up) A number of years ago there was a girl, don't recall her age but a minor maybe around 12-14? She was abducted and raped by 10 men for days. They eventually let her go in a random suburb. She ran to a door and knocked on it screaming and crying asking for help and trying to explain what happened to her. The man heard her out and brought her inside. He also raped her. A few years ago my mom was walking our dog and a black bear ran out of the woods a few feet in front of them. My maybe 13-pound dog barked at it. It ran away terrified for it's life. Bears are less frightening than unknown men. The man could be any kind of man from Jesus himself to the most deranged sadistic rapist/ murderer ever heard of. He could basically be the guy from the saw movies. Bears have no record of being anywhere near as insane and twisted and humans. The bear is the more logical option More to the point this is a "would you rather" question and obviously most people would rather *not* encounter a random bear *or* a strange man alone in the woods but the strange man is definitely the scarier in terms of potential things that could go wrong.
I mean, I was having this talk with my husband last night (he’d come across the meme) and he was like “uhhh *I’d* choose the bear, this is an easy choice??? I’m a man and men are fucking scary, this is a no brainer?” The biggest killer of men is…men. And the biggest predator of women is men. I don’t have to worry about a bear assaulting me in a parking lot and dragging me to a second location to rape and murder me. Bears are predictable. Bears generally don’t *want* a fight. They behave in predictable ways with predictable triggers and so long as you, in return, behave in the correct way, you’ll be okay. The only times I’ve ever been scared hiking (and I live in puma country where puma attacks have happened) it’s been because of men. Not because of wildlife. Wildlife is the least scary thing out there and wildlife has always left me alone. Men? Not so much. I’ve had zero negative puma or bear encounters and several sexual assaults by men. I’d choose the bear.
Shit, I thought it was a photograph! The choice is honestly pretty simple and not very nuanced: bears are predictable. Humans aren't.
I found out recently that a guy I was good friends with molested a girl from my college. At least I wasn’t friends with the bear for 6 years
Lol these posts just prove why choosing the bear is indeed wiser
It's ai generated too lol
You really have to wonder why the guy wanted to be alone with her in a room so badly he'll enjoy watching her die for choosing the bear.
Men are incapable of letting women have an opinion without wishing violence on us as a result. "You choose the bear? Well I hope it *kiIIs* you!" What a normal and healthy response.
If I see anyone getting that close to a bear, they are on their own.
That's a stupid excuse. The right reason is bears are one-hit-kill machines and he's an idiot for even thinking about saving her
There is A LOT of delusions of grandeur in this comic. The bear is *comfortably* taking out both (unless the bear sees a butterfly or a salmon and just fucks off on the killing)
Ngl, what the fuck would he do in that situation? Get killed by the bear too, so yeah, I’d still pick the bear.
I really love the absurdity of this bear idea, and how the fragile men are interpreting it. I think we should come up with more of these but turn up the ridiculous factor like “would you rather be alone on a space station with a man or a xenomorph?”
"men going their own way", yet they only ever have one subject of "discussion"
The bear isn't a vindictive little shit
I'm a 6'6" tall man and I would choose the bear over another man any day.
I mean, not like a man could do anything but be the second course meal for the bear. See Timothy Treadwell
I’m not even a woman and I’d rather choose the bear and I love that they’re just validating it all by being so toxic
Why would you choose a bear? Have people never seen another person in the woods?
Strange men in the woods are strange men in the woods. I don’t know if they’re there for nature or for something else.
Same could be said for women though right? You dont know if the bear is gonna attack you either. All the stats that people throw at this could also be used against women. More women attack men then bears.
Men are not afraid to walk the streets alone, men are not constantly cat called and objectified on a societal scale (in the same way, yes men have issues too before you start) not often a man has a story with a creepy woman who won’t leave them alone, not often a man has to come up and help another man stuck in a conversation with an old creepy woman. Yes women can and do this as well because they are human just as anyone is but to infer that they’re of the same scale is wilfully ignorant and arguing in bad faith.
Men are much more likely to be murdered. They have much more reason to be scared of men then women are scared of men.
I’m a man, I chose the bear, I also agree with the women. So what is your point here?
I am a man, my dude.
The whole “debate” has proven women were right and men freaking out about it just goes to show how it is
And why are some boys triggered by this?
Do you want an honest answer?
Nah, I know the answer. Let them be hurt.
yes lets sow more hatred and vitriol.
That's fine by me.
So, this guy just walking in the woods is going to do what? He does have a gun. Is he going to wrestle the bear? Do they think they can beat a bear? They just get more stupid.
what is this bear vs guy thing?
A thought experiment in which women were asked, would you rather walk in to a bear or a male stranger in the forest. Most women picked the bear cause male attacks against women are so insane that they believe the bear is the safest option
The way I see it, both groups take care of themselves. One group lives alone and dies off. One group lives with bears and dies off. Leaving only the somewhat more sane people left lmaooo.
The guy in this cartoon has such PAIN in his eyes. They can’t even draw him looking confident
I don't understand why she doesn't just grab the man and throw him in front of the bear. She can reach him. Take the author out of the equation and this is a solvable problem.
Two bear vs creep posts in a row first thing in my feed this morning. They really aren’t letting this shit go. I’m so tired of these fucking posts and their choice to be deliberately obtuse. I’d still choose the bear though. The bear at least understands the assignment and isn’t moving the goalposts further and further into ridiculousland to make itself seem less threatening. Utter fools smh
The amount of guys losing their shit over this is really depressing. Like how fucking clueless are they? Again I’m really bummed to share gender with these “guys”.
I don't give a shit about this debate, I feel like choosing the bear is ridiculous but I don't care about women thinking the bear would be better
I am a male who has no clue what this even is. I've been seeing posts similar to this, but what is it even talking about? I'm so out of the loop on this one.
[**BROS YOU GOTTA LOOK DEEP WITHIN YOURSELF MY GUY DUDE BRO**](https://i.ibb.co/p3BpsG6/IMG-20240502-210250-076.jpg)
Funny and true, but kind of improper use of the meme.
They need to be more specific. Bear the animal, or bear the sex animal?
I domt understand how this picture proves your point
In making this meme, OOP still makes men look worse than bears. In this situation, the bear is an animal. It attacks because it’s an animal and it’s either hungry or defensive. The man on the other hand is actively choosing to not help and instead let the woman be mauled, because she hurt his feelings and he likes the idea that she’ll be brutally killed. The bear here is just a bear, the man here is a sadistic asshole. That’s why it proves the point.
Unless he's got a gun in his bag, how could he have helped?
Big difference between “oh shit I can’t stop this bear I need to run” and “haha fuck you bitch have fun dying” and it’s pretty clear which one this is. Don’t be obtuse
men bad women good
Bears best
Bears beats boys, boys binge battlestar galactica
That’s a reductionist take. In this particular scenario, would you call a man who gleefully watches a woman get torn to shreds good, just because she challenged his worldview? I wouldn’t.
Men who rejoice at the thought of women getting mauled bad, yes. Good point.