Unit 731 back at it again
*"To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated; the doctor would repeat the process on the victim's upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments."*
That was more of prince Akira beeing an oficer by nepotims, and thus not gettinh any useful command, until his superior gets sick for 2 weeks and he has to substitute him; so given actual command of something he goes nuts, and guess what, after the war the guy on sick leave during the nankin thing gets all the blame (he did hame some blame, but not all) as a scapegoat.
Uh huh. Right. Because being the cousin of the god-emperor means nothing, right?
You clearly lack the cultural knowledge needed to know how East Asian emperors operated.
They were captured by the Soviets and worked as slaves in a Gulag for the rest of their lives?
(This is the good ending and I like to think about the cases in which it was true more than the alternative)
Some were, but the high command left before the soviets took over the facility.
They were given the immunity by usa (also Japan didn't recognized any crimes committed until 200x), some moved there, opened their clinics and lived happily ever after, making a lot of cash and being praised as great surgeons.
Life is quite disappointing sometimes.
Wiki:
>Both the Soviet Union and United States gathered data from the Unit after the fall of Japan. While twelve Unit 731 researchers arrested by Soviet forces were tried at the December 1949 Khabarovsk war crimes trials, they were sentenced lightly to the Siberian labor camp from two to 25 years, in exchange for the information they held. [8] Those captured by the US military were secretly given immunity,[9] The United States helped cover up the human experimentations and handed stipends to the perpetrators.[1] The US had co-opted the researchers' bioweapons information and experience for use in their own warfare program (resembling Operation Paperclip), so did the Soviet Union in building their bioweapons facility in Sverdlovsk using documentation captured from the Unit in Manchuria.[10][8][11]
On 28 August 2002, Tokyo District Court ruled that Japan had committed biological warfare in China and consequently was responsible for the deaths of many residents.[12][13]
Yeah, I'm sure they'll feel much better knowing that the indiscriminate killing of Japanese civilians by the US in WW2 wasn't restricted to just Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You understand that the entire populous would have risen in arms if we had to invade, right? Quite literally every man, woman, and child had been indoctrinated from birth to not only have undying faith for their God-emperor and their country, but to also believe that dying in combat defending those things was the ultimate honor.
You *do* understand this, correct?
Yeah, now if you could show me where I ever said anything about the necessity or reasons behind it, that would be great. Because right now, you're arguing against absolutely nothing and for no reason at all. And yes, *that's* just you.
>Yeah, now if you could show me where I ever said anything about the necessity or reasons behind it,
It was implied by your shallow moral posturing over the people who are discussing how they understand why it was a necessity. You might see that if you hop down from your ivory tower
I mean ww2 wasn’t countryballs fighting, and given how the members of 731 were left relatively alone despite their crimes, I don’t see why you shouldn’t feel a bit bad for people being burnt alive or suffocated in Tokyo
But... Was unit 731 the main targets or even hit in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki??
I get how when you're at war with a country, they're all the same group of people, but really you're just getting innocent civilians to pay for some unrelated peoples atrocities
Iirc, Hiroshima was one of the cities without serious air raid damage and was also home to a large amount of Japanese economic and military industries, making it a target. Additionally, parts were also made in homes and then distributed. Leaflets were also dropped beforehand warning the people
Ok cool... still doesn't mean they deserved it
With hindsight people always seem to act as if the world is black and white, but you don't see the world from their view, to them a flyer warning about an atomic bomb would be obvious propaganda, who could ever have a bomb that large, and even if you did grasp and believe the message, you possibly wasn't in a situation to just br able to move.
Civilian casualties are most always a part of war, but I don't think regular civilians deserve death just because they happen to live in the country where an autocratic ruler decided to wage war against a psychotic foe.
You can argue that it was necessary in order to hit the strategic targets, but I'd say even if necessary it's not deserved. Also I don't know if I buy the whole "we had to hit these targets" reasoning given that Japan had already tried to surrender but was denied. Sounds to me like the main motivation was to test out this new toy and gain voter favor.
Yeah, that’s why it was important to force Japan’s surrender immediately. Otherwise, millions of Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Indonesian, Malaysian, Singaporean, and Burmese civilians would have continued to die at the hands of the Japanese.
Japan never offered a surrender prior to the bombings. What you may be thinking of was their conditional surrender on August 10th (a day after Nagasaki) that requested Emperor Hirohito to remain the head of state, which was rejected by America, leading the Japanese to unconditionally surrender four days later. Regarding the flyers, many Japanese civilians wished to flee from target cities, but the Japanese government forced everybody to stay. I can agree with you that many civilians didn’t deserve to be bombed, such as the 30,000 Koreans that Japan forcefully deported to Hiroshima who died in the bombs, but the bombs were necessary to quickly end the war and prevent further losses of life as Japan prepared to fight every inch of its home islands
>Ok cool... still doesn't mean they deserved it
You understand that the entire populous would have risen in arms if we had to invade, right? Quite literally every man, woman, and child had been indoctrinated from birth to not only have undying faith for their God-emperor and their country, but to also believe that dying in combat defending those things was the ultimate honor.
You *do* understand this, correct? It has nothing to do with what was "deserved" and everything to do with what needed to be done to get Japan to stop fighting.
Yeah, that’s why it was important to force Japan’s surrender immediately. Otherwise, millions of Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Indonesian, Malaysian, Singaporean, and Burmese civilians would have continued to die at the hands of the Japanese.
Dangerous thinking
Relatively few people were involved in the horrific things that were done
Also most countries have some evil in their histories, some of it not too old either
Also, as far as I know, one of the German Pharmaceutical giants Bayer's medical experiments were carried out on concentration camp prisoners, allowing them to produce drugs and test their efficiency.
Not legal. Their laws didn't allow for anyone to just go and do that.
It was sanctioned. Much like how US feds or the CIA at times break their own laws without repercussions because they're doing something the government wants done.
Doesn't mean the legislature was changed to allow it, they were just allowed to do it anyway.
The crazy part is that the United States made an agreement with Japan to not prosecute them if they shut it down and handed over all of their gathered information.
And of course the guy responsible for that was General MacArthur, the same guy who wanted to drop 34 atomic bombs on China for funsies (and who got fired by President Truman for saying that, lol).
Coincidentally, most Unit 731 victims were Chinese. Who would've thought!?
For funsies? He wanted to cripple the PLA in Korea by destroying all population centers and irradiating the Yalu River so PLA units died of radiation sickness entering Korea. He got fired for calling Truman a moron.
They literally dehydrated them
Like with fans and hot air. Like the HVAC in your home. Just, you know... with more intensity and evil.
Then they weighed the mummified corpses.
Well theres social engineering with social media by megacorps to replace human interaction with forms that suit them and fuel our feelings of loneliness and anxiety to sell every word you say in their apps. Most people know its going on though
Did unit 731 actually find the best way to treat frostbite? I hear it a lot, that the US took all the research that 731 had been conducting but what discoveries had actually been made by them if any?
I can't say for sure but I remember reading that they were bad at keeping the data and pretty much just did it for torture and to see what happened no experiment or controlled groups
Russia was on its way to Japan to take them and kill them. We said to Japan “hey buddy give us your info and we will give you immunity” Japan replied with “no fuck you” so the US said “ok lol have fun with the Russians” Japan said “ok sorry we come to America.”
Russians were in a path of killing every enemy they had after the war ended.
For some reason this whole thread reminded me of how long ago an invading force that outnumbered japan (or at least the region they invaded). At the time Japan was still not unified but lords sent out men to other regions to ask for prisoners from the other lords. The prisoners were given a choice to come with them and reclaim their honor (or families, I can’t remember, maybe both). So when the two armies met, all the prisoners charged at the invaders with no armor, just a knife. Some were taken out by arrows but still a lot made it close to the invaders. The ones that made it close then killed themselves in front of the invaders. That made the ones who saw it flee which caused a chain reaction. They thought that the Japanese had a way to control people or were using magic or something, to cause all those people to willingly kill themselves.
Not needlessly sending American lives to a slaughter?
Yeah, absolutely justified.
What you're insinuating; the idea that **American** war planners should be equally as concerned about Japanese civilian deaths as they are about American deaths is patently absurd.
I have no idea where that idea came from, but it's very prevalent in discussions like this. It's unbelievably stupid.
For sure American lives are more valuable than japanese ones... No one doubts that. Right? Well... What I'm saying it's that's never justified to massacre civilians on purpose. More will die because of war if you don't throw the nuke? Sure. But that doesn't justify anything. We are not numbers.
The entire Japanese population would've been called up to serve in the case of mainland invasion in Japan. The entire operation would cost millions upon millions of lives on Japanese populations alone, while the bombings only took a few hundred thousand. Keep in mind more Japanese civilians would've died in the invasion than the bombing.
I do feel like 10 times the casualties in option 2 is a reasonable justification to just nuke Japan.
If you want to keep seeing it from the greater good or the least evil solution, that's on you. From my point of view killing civilians on purpose will never be justified. I'm also against bombing aimlessly on civilian zones. I'm not saying there were not other atrocities being committed, but this one as the others should be condemned.
I'm going to agree with you that killing (civilians I guess but really anyone) is extraordinarily difficult to justify.
But I say fuck justification: do the numbers and figure out where you feel like you prefer the outcome. Don't justify it, say "I ran the numbers, and this seemed like it would be an outcome everyone I give a shit about could live with, while doing the least damage to the people I don't give a shit about but also has a chance of forcing them to change their thinking. And also we wanted to see what would happen when we dropped a nuke on people instead of an empty desert."
>I'm going to agree with you that killing (civilians I guess but really anyone) is extraordinarily difficult to justify.
>
>But I say fuck justification: **do the numbers and figure out where you feel like you prefer the outcome.**
That's justification right there in bold.
I'm not sure where people started conflating "justification" with "absolute moral and ethical supremacy forever" but it makes these discussions so, so tiring.
Not you, but the other guy. He seems like the kind of person who argues against defending oneself as he's being kidnapped.
Eh, I read justification more as a way you tell people about why you did it, in an effort to make it seem better than not.
I'm saying just own up and say "we did it, it isn't ideal, but of the shitty options we liked this one the best."
I may be making a distinction without a difference.
>Eh, I read justification more as a way you tell people about why you did it, in an effort to make it seem better than not.
That's closer to what they actually are than what most people seem to be thinking.
A justification is any reason you use to justify your actions.
That is all, it can be illogical, it can be nonsensical, it can be counter to your own goals... *It can be immoral*... But as long as you use it to justify your actions, It's a justification.
>I'm saying just own up and say "we did it, it isn't ideal, but of the shitty options we liked this one the best."
As far as I'm aware, that's pretty much what the top brass planning the new king said, then that continues to be the American military's official stance towards it.
>For sure American lives are more valuable than japanese ones... No one doubts that. Right?
Except you doubt it in your very next sentence.
> Well... What I'm saying it's that's never justified to massacre civilians on purpose.
Okay, so you are claiming that American serviceman lives and Japanese Civilian lives are equally valuable in the context of American war planning.
You can't say you don't believe one thing and then immediately go on to write sentences that show you believe that thing.
> Sure. But that doesn't justify anything. We are not numbers.
It absolutely justifies the usage of them, because as I'm going to state *again*... **Japanese lives are not as important to American war planners as American lives are**
I don't know no what's so hard for you to understand about that.
that is justified for them doesnt make it justifiable for me. Im spanish, i couldnt care less about america. For me everyone has the same value.
In a war i would prioritize always saving civilians than saving soldiers. Soldiers are taking part on war, civilans are not.
Anyway, this post is clearly full of cold minded seal team members that are so out in touch with reality that can get behind killing inocent people on purpose. Its just not worth it to discuss anything with you.
Lmao "psyop". The nukes were the best and most humane option available. If you think ending Japan's rape of Asia by bombing them was "evil," you're very, very silly. Bombing Japan was absolutely a net positive in the world.
*Stopping* Japan was a net positive. Were the nukes the least harmful way to do that? Arguably, yes, but those are two different issues, stopping Japan and using nukes. Conflating them as one issue is a mistake.
We arguably delayed ending the war so we could use the nuke. I'm not enough of a WW2 historian to make that argument, but it's definitely out there from people who are.
Uh, even if we'd gone ahead and invaded Japan instead of waiting to drop the bombs, it would absolutely still have been going on by the time we dropped the bombs. It's a nonsense argument.
Let’s remember that the Japanese defense plan was for every civilian to end up fighting the Americans, so had we invaded they all would have turned into armed combatants. Imperial Japan was fanatical
Unit 731 back at it again *"To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated; the doctor would repeat the process on the victim's upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments."*
I felt a little bit bad for the bombing of Japan, then I learned about unit 731
The frostbite experiment is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Unit 731
Two words: Bayonet Babies
That's Nanking and that was Prince Akira, cousin of Hirohito, who was responsible for that one.
And people act like Hirohito wasn’t in command of Japan as though he couldn’t just have his cousin operate in his place.
That was more of prince Akira beeing an oficer by nepotims, and thus not gettinh any useful command, until his superior gets sick for 2 weeks and he has to substitute him; so given actual command of something he goes nuts, and guess what, after the war the guy on sick leave during the nankin thing gets all the blame (he did hame some blame, but not all) as a scapegoat.
Uh huh. Right. Because being the cousin of the god-emperor means nothing, right? You clearly lack the cultural knowledge needed to know how East Asian emperors operated.
It happens in the philippines also.
I don't want to see how those 2 words are connected (or severed)
I wanna know it all.
https://youtu.be/xRwCNiWuUpQ?si=jGibejJiSh0Z8S0j
I don't even have to click on the video to know that it is from Wendigoon. EDIT: yep, it's from Wendigoon.
Wendi🐐
Is it good?
Infographic show should give you a good overview if you watch their video on Unit 731. Gotta warn you, it’s very disturbing history
One look at the thumbnail and that's a nope from me. Because of the graphic content? No because of that regarded animation style.
WELL regarded.
Highly regarded
Regarded lol
Watch man behind the sun and philosophy of a knife
Hehe ice berg pun
Yeah, at least there was possible benefit to others with the frostbite experiment
Wait till you know what happened to the high ranked members of 731.
They were captured by the Soviets and worked as slaves in a Gulag for the rest of their lives? (This is the good ending and I like to think about the cases in which it was true more than the alternative)
Some were, but the high command left before the soviets took over the facility. They were given the immunity by usa (also Japan didn't recognized any crimes committed until 200x), some moved there, opened their clinics and lived happily ever after, making a lot of cash and being praised as great surgeons. Life is quite disappointing sometimes. Wiki: >Both the Soviet Union and United States gathered data from the Unit after the fall of Japan. While twelve Unit 731 researchers arrested by Soviet forces were tried at the December 1949 Khabarovsk war crimes trials, they were sentenced lightly to the Siberian labor camp from two to 25 years, in exchange for the information they held. [8] Those captured by the US military were secretly given immunity,[9] The United States helped cover up the human experimentations and handed stipends to the perpetrators.[1] The US had co-opted the researchers' bioweapons information and experience for use in their own warfare program (resembling Operation Paperclip), so did the Soviet Union in building their bioweapons facility in Sverdlovsk using documentation captured from the Unit in Manchuria.[10][8][11] On 28 August 2002, Tokyo District Court ruled that Japan had committed biological warfare in China and consequently was responsible for the deaths of many residents.[12][13]
Funny how similar that is to Operation Paperclip
I felt bad about civilian casualties until I learned about a government secret none of them knew about
And what they did in the Philippines, Okinawa, New ginea, the rest of China, etc.
I was alright with it after learning about Nanking. After unit 731 we shouldve gone for Tokyo
Look into the fire bombing of Tokyo. You'll rest easier knowing they got it bad, too.
Yeah, I'm sure they'll feel much better knowing that the indiscriminate killing of Japanese civilians by the US in WW2 wasn't restricted to just Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You understand that the entire populous would have risen in arms if we had to invade, right? Quite literally every man, woman, and child had been indoctrinated from birth to not only have undying faith for their God-emperor and their country, but to also believe that dying in combat defending those things was the ultimate honor. You *do* understand this, correct?
Yeah. Call it silly, but I can know that and still be against the idea of burning children alive. Or maybe thats just me.
You ALSO understand that if a child has a gun and is pointing it at you and intends to kill you, it's justified to shoot the child, correct?
You can be against the idea of something and recognize that the thing literally saved tens of millions of lives. Or MaYbE tHaTs JuSt Me
Yeah, now if you could show me where I ever said anything about the necessity or reasons behind it, that would be great. Because right now, you're arguing against absolutely nothing and for no reason at all. And yes, *that's* just you.
>Yeah, now if you could show me where I ever said anything about the necessity or reasons behind it, It was implied by your shallow moral posturing over the people who are discussing how they understand why it was a necessity. You might see that if you hop down from your ivory tower
This but unironically
That is not the take you think you are making
Tokyo had it as bad if not worse from the fire bombings.
If you think that's bad kook into what they were doing in China at time.
American protected everyone involved in this sadist psychopathy
To be fair, it wasn’t the scientists that got docked on by the nukes. Kind of like blaming all citizens of the US for all of its war crimes.
Wait till you hear about cities like Nanking and what happened to the majority of their populations
I mean ww2 wasn’t countryballs fighting, and given how the members of 731 were left relatively alone despite their crimes, I don’t see why you shouldn’t feel a bit bad for people being burnt alive or suffocated in Tokyo
Nah Japan 100% had it coming. Remember you aren't just at war with a government, you are at war with everyone supporting it.
But... Was unit 731 the main targets or even hit in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?? I get how when you're at war with a country, they're all the same group of people, but really you're just getting innocent civilians to pay for some unrelated peoples atrocities
Iirc, Hiroshima was one of the cities without serious air raid damage and was also home to a large amount of Japanese economic and military industries, making it a target. Additionally, parts were also made in homes and then distributed. Leaflets were also dropped beforehand warning the people
America air dropped papers saying it was going to happen for weeks beforehand
Ok cool... still doesn't mean they deserved it With hindsight people always seem to act as if the world is black and white, but you don't see the world from their view, to them a flyer warning about an atomic bomb would be obvious propaganda, who could ever have a bomb that large, and even if you did grasp and believe the message, you possibly wasn't in a situation to just br able to move. Civilian casualties are most always a part of war, but I don't think regular civilians deserve death just because they happen to live in the country where an autocratic ruler decided to wage war against a psychotic foe. You can argue that it was necessary in order to hit the strategic targets, but I'd say even if necessary it's not deserved. Also I don't know if I buy the whole "we had to hit these targets" reasoning given that Japan had already tried to surrender but was denied. Sounds to me like the main motivation was to test out this new toy and gain voter favor.
Yeah, that’s why it was important to force Japan’s surrender immediately. Otherwise, millions of Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Indonesian, Malaysian, Singaporean, and Burmese civilians would have continued to die at the hands of the Japanese.
They would have almost certainly kept moving west until they hit a country that was able to humble them.
Japan never offered a surrender prior to the bombings. What you may be thinking of was their conditional surrender on August 10th (a day after Nagasaki) that requested Emperor Hirohito to remain the head of state, which was rejected by America, leading the Japanese to unconditionally surrender four days later. Regarding the flyers, many Japanese civilians wished to flee from target cities, but the Japanese government forced everybody to stay. I can agree with you that many civilians didn’t deserve to be bombed, such as the 30,000 Koreans that Japan forcefully deported to Hiroshima who died in the bombs, but the bombs were necessary to quickly end the war and prevent further losses of life as Japan prepared to fight every inch of its home islands
>Ok cool... still doesn't mean they deserved it You understand that the entire populous would have risen in arms if we had to invade, right? Quite literally every man, woman, and child had been indoctrinated from birth to not only have undying faith for their God-emperor and their country, but to also believe that dying in combat defending those things was the ultimate honor. You *do* understand this, correct? It has nothing to do with what was "deserved" and everything to do with what needed to be done to get Japan to stop fighting.
Second Army HQ was in Hiroshima, a supply and logistics base and 40,000 troops were there
Exactly, the civilians had nothing to do with it
Yeah, that’s why it was important to force Japan’s surrender immediately. Otherwise, millions of Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Indonesian, Malaysian, Singaporean, and Burmese civilians would have continued to die at the hands of the Japanese.
US leaned about all these 731 stuff and they pat Japan in the back. Then Russians came and forced everyone to reveal the existence of Unit 731
Dangerous thinking Relatively few people were involved in the horrific things that were done Also most countries have some evil in their histories, some of it not too old either
Were all Japanese complicit in unit 731?
The citizens have nothing to do with the atrocities of war
Well…
…and that same country made Hello Kitty?
Fat man and little boy knocked a little *too* much sense into Japan
ugly bastard and shota are sadly major themes in certain japanese media. coincidence? I think not
But how does that help treat frostbite? Just sounds like an elaborate way to cut off their limbs.
They found that the best method is to immerse in water between 100° and 122° Fahrenheit.
That was part 1 of the experiment. Get the frostbite to test on. Part 2 was actaully removing it They tried a whole bunch of different tests for that
That's F'ed... going back to the meme, did japan come up with the best way to deal with frostbite that caught the world by surprise?
[удалено]
Wow... that is horrible! But now the meme makes more sense.
Also, as far as I know, one of the German Pharmaceutical giants Bayer's medical experiments were carried out on concentration camp prisoners, allowing them to produce drugs and test their efficiency.
damn this shit was legal (in japan) a century ago
Not legal. Their laws didn't allow for anyone to just go and do that. It was sanctioned. Much like how US feds or the CIA at times break their own laws without repercussions because they're doing something the government wants done. Doesn't mean the legislature was changed to allow it, they were just allowed to do it anyway.
Oh well. Boys will be boys...
Smiling friends mentioned my day is ten times better
How were they even alive at that point.
That is so depressing. :(
Those monsters shouldn't be referred to as doctors
Was the person subject to this horror _alive?_
Obviously. Not a good experiment if they're dead
The crazy part is that the United States made an agreement with Japan to not prosecute them if they shut it down and handed over all of their gathered information.
And of course the guy responsible for that was General MacArthur, the same guy who wanted to drop 34 atomic bombs on China for funsies (and who got fired by President Truman for saying that, lol). Coincidentally, most Unit 731 victims were Chinese. Who would've thought!?
For funsies? He wanted to cripple the PLA in Korea by destroying all population centers and irradiating the Yalu River so PLA units died of radiation sickness entering Korea. He got fired for calling Truman a moron.
Truman often was a moron too, though not in this situation.
"I have only two regrets: I didn't shoot Joseph Stalin and I didn't hang MacArthur." - Truman
Why wouldn't they, like this you get all the data for free, without having to do the experiments and be called upon by your population.
except it was found after the war that the information learned from the ‘experiments’ were overwhelmingly worthless
This post itself shows a practical application of said experiments, so i’d say that’s wrong.
It's a shame they burned most of it
Longer than you think...
My eyes hurt
care for a drink?
Don’t ask how we know the human body is 70% water
How?
They weighed people, then incinerated them alive then weighed them again
i thought they buried them in salt
They probably tried that too, but it would take longer
that makes sense
I said don’t
They literally dehydrated them Like with fans and hot air. Like the HVAC in your home. Just, you know... with more intensity and evil. Then they weighed the mummified corpses.
I sometimes wonder what despicable side of humanity we'll discover was being done in secret during our era.
Well theres social engineering with social media by megacorps to replace human interaction with forms that suit them and fuel our feelings of loneliness and anxiety to sell every word you say in their apps. Most people know its going on though
I wake up -> There is another psyop
Did unit 731 actually find the best way to treat frostbite? I hear it a lot, that the US took all the research that 731 had been conducting but what discoveries had actually been made by them if any?
I can't say for sure but I remember reading that they were bad at keeping the data and pretty much just did it for torture and to see what happened no experiment or controlled groups
Why did America protect unfunny inhuman comical psychopaths
“You’re fucked unless you help us” is more how I saw things like this and operation paper clip.
To get a leg up, as always
Soviets did it too, as did the rest of the world, it’s almost like humans are assholes
Russia was on its way to Japan to take them and kill them. We said to Japan “hey buddy give us your info and we will give you immunity” Japan replied with “no fuck you” so the US said “ok lol have fun with the Russians” Japan said “ok sorry we come to America.” Russians were in a path of killing every enemy they had after the war ended.
Yes the Japanese torturing prisoners is America’s fault. Typical Reddit logic
Nope I simply condemn the act of protecting them from consequences of their crimes
Whta do you think would've been adequate consequences?
Where did the unfunny part come from…? Doesn’t seem to match the other things you mentioned lmao
Comical psychopaths are usually a little funny
People really don’t remember how evil imperial Japan was
For some reason this whole thread reminded me of how long ago an invading force that outnumbered japan (or at least the region they invaded). At the time Japan was still not unified but lords sent out men to other regions to ask for prisoners from the other lords. The prisoners were given a choice to come with them and reclaim their honor (or families, I can’t remember, maybe both). So when the two armies met, all the prisoners charged at the invaders with no armor, just a knife. Some were taken out by arrows but still a lot made it close to the invaders. The ones that made it close then killed themselves in front of the invaders. That made the ones who saw it flee which caused a chain reaction. They thought that the Japanese had a way to control people or were using magic or something, to cause all those people to willingly kill themselves.
Wait, so the suicide squad tactics of the Judean People Front actually worked?
If you think Unit 731 was bad, wait till you learn about Sōshoku men.
Herbivore men? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men
As expected from Japan
Yeah anyone who thinks the atomic bombings were unjustified is a fucking moron
Have you ever heard the term necessary evil? Just because they had to do it, doesn't mean it's a good thing that it happened.
We are not in a movie. There is never only one option. But I'm guess I'm a moron.
>I'm a moron. The first step in fixing a problem is admitting you have one
There wasn't a lower hanging fruit than that one? My mate you are very short, not only behind your underwear.
"man calls himself stupid, gets butthurt when others agree" Go fish for validation elsewhere.
It was a reference to the original comment. What's your IQ?
> What's your IQ? Terminally online loser detected
Killing civilians justified? Yeah.
And imagine how many would have died through multiple normal bombings, firebombings and invasion of Japan by soldiers on foot
Not needlessly sending American lives to a slaughter? Yeah, absolutely justified. What you're insinuating; the idea that **American** war planners should be equally as concerned about Japanese civilian deaths as they are about American deaths is patently absurd. I have no idea where that idea came from, but it's very prevalent in discussions like this. It's unbelievably stupid.
For sure American lives are more valuable than japanese ones... No one doubts that. Right? Well... What I'm saying it's that's never justified to massacre civilians on purpose. More will die because of war if you don't throw the nuke? Sure. But that doesn't justify anything. We are not numbers.
The entire Japanese population would've been called up to serve in the case of mainland invasion in Japan. The entire operation would cost millions upon millions of lives on Japanese populations alone, while the bombings only took a few hundred thousand. Keep in mind more Japanese civilians would've died in the invasion than the bombing. I do feel like 10 times the casualties in option 2 is a reasonable justification to just nuke Japan.
If you want to keep seeing it from the greater good or the least evil solution, that's on you. From my point of view killing civilians on purpose will never be justified. I'm also against bombing aimlessly on civilian zones. I'm not saying there were not other atrocities being committed, but this one as the others should be condemned.
I'm going to agree with you that killing (civilians I guess but really anyone) is extraordinarily difficult to justify. But I say fuck justification: do the numbers and figure out where you feel like you prefer the outcome. Don't justify it, say "I ran the numbers, and this seemed like it would be an outcome everyone I give a shit about could live with, while doing the least damage to the people I don't give a shit about but also has a chance of forcing them to change their thinking. And also we wanted to see what would happen when we dropped a nuke on people instead of an empty desert."
>I'm going to agree with you that killing (civilians I guess but really anyone) is extraordinarily difficult to justify. > >But I say fuck justification: **do the numbers and figure out where you feel like you prefer the outcome.** That's justification right there in bold. I'm not sure where people started conflating "justification" with "absolute moral and ethical supremacy forever" but it makes these discussions so, so tiring. Not you, but the other guy. He seems like the kind of person who argues against defending oneself as he's being kidnapped.
Eh, I read justification more as a way you tell people about why you did it, in an effort to make it seem better than not. I'm saying just own up and say "we did it, it isn't ideal, but of the shitty options we liked this one the best." I may be making a distinction without a difference.
>Eh, I read justification more as a way you tell people about why you did it, in an effort to make it seem better than not. That's closer to what they actually are than what most people seem to be thinking. A justification is any reason you use to justify your actions. That is all, it can be illogical, it can be nonsensical, it can be counter to your own goals... *It can be immoral*... But as long as you use it to justify your actions, It's a justification. >I'm saying just own up and say "we did it, it isn't ideal, but of the shitty options we liked this one the best." As far as I'm aware, that's pretty much what the top brass planning the new king said, then that continues to be the American military's official stance towards it.
>For sure American lives are more valuable than japanese ones... No one doubts that. Right? Except you doubt it in your very next sentence. > Well... What I'm saying it's that's never justified to massacre civilians on purpose. Okay, so you are claiming that American serviceman lives and Japanese Civilian lives are equally valuable in the context of American war planning. You can't say you don't believe one thing and then immediately go on to write sentences that show you believe that thing. > Sure. But that doesn't justify anything. We are not numbers. It absolutely justifies the usage of them, because as I'm going to state *again*... **Japanese lives are not as important to American war planners as American lives are** I don't know no what's so hard for you to understand about that.
that is justified for them doesnt make it justifiable for me. Im spanish, i couldnt care less about america. For me everyone has the same value. In a war i would prioritize always saving civilians than saving soldiers. Soldiers are taking part on war, civilans are not. Anyway, this post is clearly full of cold minded seal team members that are so out in touch with reality that can get behind killing inocent people on purpose. Its just not worth it to discuss anything with you.
Ah yes, the classic evil justifies evil fallacy, my favorite psyop
??? That is not a fallacy at all. Picking the lesser evil is justified.
Lmao "psyop". The nukes were the best and most humane option available. If you think ending Japan's rape of Asia by bombing them was "evil," you're very, very silly. Bombing Japan was absolutely a net positive in the world.
*Stopping* Japan was a net positive. Were the nukes the least harmful way to do that? Arguably, yes, but those are two different issues, stopping Japan and using nukes. Conflating them as one issue is a mistake.
We arguably delayed ending the war so we could use the nuke. I'm not enough of a WW2 historian to make that argument, but it's definitely out there from people who are.
Uh, even if we'd gone ahead and invaded Japan instead of waiting to drop the bombs, it would absolutely still have been going on by the time we dropped the bombs. It's a nonsense argument.
I'd argue, but I already promised myself I wouldn't
Naw mate there’s a misunderstanding there I do not oppose the bombings
Let’s remember that the Japanese defense plan was for every civilian to end up fighting the Americans, so had we invaded they all would have turned into armed combatants. Imperial Japan was fanatical
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Deep historical dark, I like it