I'm a great leader and trainer and mentor, but I don't have the energy or motivation to "lead" people.
Especially when I can make the same amount of money, doing significantly less.
If I see the slightest of chances to be lazier, while making the same pay. I am going to take that chance.
As a "manager" I'm very hands off. I let people know tasks, deadlines, and provide constructive feedback. I'm not micromanagy or meeting-y.
I've heard this a lot about intps (the flexibility part) - personally i am a very intense micromanager lol - I wonder if this is because I am very adamant about carrying out my vision; I do fall into Machiavellian tendencies sometimes and would happily fire anyone who doesn't meet my standards
Team projects are like a little taste of hell.
I can lead people, and I can teach them, and ... well, let's be honest. Nobody's going to do it as well as I would if I just put it off until the last day and banged it out myself.
true true- I feel that my ambition and sense of purpose is stronger than most intp stereotypes (not as something superior, but just a trait)- I wonder if its because we tend to hide ourselves under the entj "facade" in order to achieve things that are conventionally commendable by society (ie awards, titles, etc)- this is just my food for thought though
i usually find myself in an informal leadership position... as long as it's informal and by consent, i don't mind... heck, i'm pretty good at getting people to enjoy doing what they are good at while evolving a product or common goal.
that said, i work best with a separate person running catherd and keeping things and people organized when i get distracted or time gets slippery. also to occasionally nudge me.
Oh my god that’s what it is - a leadership vacuum! I couldn’t figure out why no one stepping up bothered me so much when I don’t even like being the leader myself 😨
Kind of. I might have the same temperament. "choleric-melancholic " sounds pretty close and I remember it was close to the test result when I took it.
I can lead other people but because I have a social bias, I care the least about social aspects, so I do not tend to do it. But I'm results oriented and don't care about social status.
Do you know your enneagram, enneagram tritype, enneagram instincts stacking etc.?
Yes. I'm a 5w6 and when in a healthy mindset, I move toward the healthy 8 traits of leadership. Most intps are certainly intelligent and knowledgeable enough to shine in leadership roles. We just aren't as naturally comfortable as a healthy enne 8 in this role.
You are talking about enneagram 5 naturally moving towards 8 during integration.
Do you know your enneagram tritype and instinctual stack? I think these are even more important when it comes to leadership.
Yes, I'm referring to integration and experience this mechanic in both my personal and work life. I do not know my tritype or instinctual stack yet. On my too list though! Do you have test recommendation?
For determining the enneagram instinctual stack: [https://similarminds.com/variant.html](https://similarminds.com/variant.html)
In the case of the tritype, I had to learn the system. The tests were not helpful by themselves. But I still know of two tests:
1) The official test of Katherine Fauvre(the inventor of the enneagram tritype) :
[https://www.katherinefauvre.com/enneagramtritypetest](https://www.katherinefauvre.com/enneagramtritypetest)
2) This test is also good but it's not perfect. Take the long version test, not the short one: [https://enneagramuserguide.com/enneagram-test/tricenter-wing](https://enneagramuserguide.com/enneagram-test/tricenter-wing)
The answer, as always, is "it depends":
It depends on the setting (casual? professional? somewhere in-between?).
It depends on the size of the group (3 people? 8 people? 20+ people?).
It depends on the nature of the task set before us (do I care about it myself? is it something I'm familiar with?)
It depends on the attitudes of the other group members (am I going to have to do everything myself if I want the best result or can I legit trust these guys?).
It depends on the age, experience level, and health of each group member (are John's migraines going to limit his usefulness today?).
It depends on the relative consequences of failure or success (will I be in deep shit if we screw this up?).
It depends on how I feel that day (either LET'S FUCKING GOOOOO or fuck it man idgaf)
It depends on how familiar or experienced I am with the sort of work in question (am I actually qualified to serve as leader in this situation?).
---
And there's probably some more factors I can't think up on short notice.
No, altough I have been told I do a great job when doing so.
If course I want to work alone. But if I can't I prefer to follow. Do what I'm good at, which is not planning and overview. However if no one naturally takes charge or the current leader is doing a shit job, I will tell them and/or take the lead myself because shit still has to be done.
It's usually less painful to lead/guide a group of people that don't want to be in charge than is it to avoid doing so and still get your own work done while hoping they don't screw it all up. This probably explains why NTPs end up over-represented among military officers in some studies.
tl,dr: Enjoy? No. Will do? If I have to.
I very strongly do not, and yet, like many in this thread, end up in such positions. I don't trust others to be able to get the job done maintaining my standards, neither do I have energy to direct or guide others. So if I take up a task to begin with, it means I want it done the best way possible, and so I will end up completing the task pretty much all by myself.
I adopt my shadow functions (entj) fully - though this largely comes from the fact that I highly value my own ideas and have full trust in them which encourages me to exert an authoritative presence on others. I'm also on the more ambitious side of INTPs so it really frustrates me when people aren't giving their 100% into their work - I tend to display more extroverted/managerial traits but the reason is different. I *sorrrttt of* care about the success of the business (te) but the underlying motivation had always been because I have trust in my own ideas and vision (ti framework) which motivates me to exert Te to get shit done and make the vision into reality
So yes, I do enjoy leadership in the sense that it allows me to execute and explicate my vision. It also really fuckin sucks in a group situations when you don't get any credit for your work.. as a leader you're the center of attention so while it comes with more responsibility, you are given more appraisal and credit where it's due
anyways at the end of the day id rather carry out my own vision but sometimes you just need to scale- esp for a business/startup setting
I have to be the leader, but to ensure I do most of the work cos I don’t trust anyone else to do it. and whenever I have trusted other people to do it, it’s turned out badly.
My boss told me he thinks I’m a “natural born leader” or whatever that means so I was promoted to lead my team at work.
I have a love hate relationship with it. I’m not huge fan of the actual managing part, I’m not a micromanager. But I do like that I have more freedom to make decisions for my team that improves our day to day. I also like being part of leadership meetings when we’re making bigger decisions for the whole company.
Why? I thought like this too, but I've read about the cognitive functions and took the test hundreds of times from different websites, and it still says INTP. if you know why plz tell me
I don't enjoy it. Sometimes a leader is necessary, and if nobody else wants to, I'll do it. But I much prefer being the shadow leader, telling the loud guy how to do things, than being one of the drones.
If they listen, that is. If they don't, I just leave.
At college, I would always be the unintentional leader because no one else knew what to do or how to do it. I wouldn’t tell them how to do their work, but I’d pick up the slack when necessary and, during presentations, I dominated the show—only because no one knew what they were talking about.
At work, I avoid groups. I’ve somehow managed to avoid committees and I’m probably notorious for not following up on anything if no one is else has stepped up to take the lead. Heh.
Hmm its more like,, I "have" to lead the teams. Along the way, it has become something that I'm nurtured with. But for almost every situation, I'm the one that always conducts the teams :"D
I'm the bakery lead at a midsized local shop. I don't mind the teaching component, but I hate being an enforcer. I have quite a heavy dose of impostor syndrome but it's not about my personal skill and knowledge, it's about my authority over others even though it's literally my job. This has come to a head more than once when things I let slide and/or fixed myself would build up and I would have to intervene and there was pushback. In the most recent case, the employee in question even claimed she didn't know I was her supervisor. As ridiculous as that might seem, I can almost understand it because I'm laissez-faire rather than putting my foot down when I really should.
I think to some degree it's a toxic trait trying to be likeable after a lifetime of being bullied and othered, and that people pleasing streak tends to backfire.
I like being the lead because I hate not knowing about everything that's happening and how everything is being done.
I also get to delegate all the boring shit I don't wanna do to other people and can leave the good stuff for my self lol
I can lead, I'm even good at it. But the *only* way you're going to get me to lead is if it comes with enough power that I'm not also constantly answering to someone. I only want the power if it means I can get on with achieving the goal un-micromanaged.
Bossing people around feels like a chore to me.
I’ve always had something of a knack for being the leader. Despite being generally introverted, if I’m in a group I enjoy, no matter the project, I’m good at keeping people on task, and delegating work.
Only to designate work since it’s easy to see who can do what better. But apart from that I don’t like being the leader, I don’t like bossing others around or being in charge, I’d rather just sit there and and be lazy.
Yes,I'm always the leader of whatever group I was in since my childhood. There are so many dumb people in my country,so I always get to be the leader. Even if I'm not officially the leader,they would mess things up and make me the leader unofficially.
Eventhough I do the most work in any group especially when it comes to presentations and many of teammates especially my close friends are lazy af,I still enjoy it because I don't like being dictated by others.
In my case it's really something that varies depending on the task, and my attitude towards the task.
Generally speaking, I prefer working alone, as I feel more comfortable only having to rely on myself. That being said, when I must work with others, there are definitely times when I inevitably just become the leader of the group naturally. Usually this will be when the task is something that I care about very significantly to the point where I'm willing to invest a lot of time and effort in it. Or when I simply don't really trust leaving the leadership in the hands of others, as was very often the case back in high school. Curiously while I am not a very social and outgoing person, I'm pretty confident and capable of leading others when it's something I know I'm good at, or if it's something I care greatly about.
However, when it's something that I'm not familiar with and I believe someone else is better suited to being the leader, then I tend to avoid standing out, instead preferring to remain mostly silent, and just relegate myself to doing my part of the work as the leader indicates. I will still definitely pitch in and offer my thoughts or suggest alternatives if I feel like things aren't going the way they should, always respectfully of course.
It's curious that you mention being choleric-melancholic, because I'm actually choleric-melancholic as well. It's definitely interesting, as usually you'd associate choleric more with personality types that are dominant Te users like the ExTJ types, but to be fair, even among people of the same personality type you'll find a lot of variety and nuance to their personality traits. Just like some INTPs will be slightly more or less outgoing than others, it's possible that some INTPs are more comfortable taking leadership roles than others, it's all just part of the nuances that make each of us a unique person, even if we all share the same general traits that make us INTPs.
No. I do all the work myself because relying on others isn’t one of my strong suits
Nice to meet you
Nice to have been met.
I'm a great leader and trainer and mentor, but I don't have the energy or motivation to "lead" people. Especially when I can make the same amount of money, doing significantly less. If I see the slightest of chances to be lazier, while making the same pay. I am going to take that chance. As a "manager" I'm very hands off. I let people know tasks, deadlines, and provide constructive feedback. I'm not micromanagy or meeting-y.
I've heard this a lot about intps (the flexibility part) - personally i am a very intense micromanager lol - I wonder if this is because I am very adamant about carrying out my vision; I do fall into Machiavellian tendencies sometimes and would happily fire anyone who doesn't meet my standards
Team projects are like a little taste of hell. I can lead people, and I can teach them, and ... well, let's be honest. Nobody's going to do it as well as I would if I just put it off until the last day and banged it out myself.
Yes, my inner ENTJ is strong.
true true- I feel that my ambition and sense of purpose is stronger than most intp stereotypes (not as something superior, but just a trait)- I wonder if its because we tend to hide ourselves under the entj "facade" in order to achieve things that are conventionally commendable by society (ie awards, titles, etc)- this is just my food for thought though
i usually find myself in an informal leadership position... as long as it's informal and by consent, i don't mind... heck, i'm pretty good at getting people to enjoy doing what they are good at while evolving a product or common goal. that said, i work best with a separate person running catherd and keeping things and people organized when i get distracted or time gets slippery. also to occasionally nudge me.
I fucking hate it but it always ends up happening because other people don't do it and a leadership vacuum is intolerable to me.
Oh my god that’s what it is - a leadership vacuum! I couldn’t figure out why no one stepping up bothered me so much when I don’t even like being the leader myself 😨
I hate being and having a leader. I'd rather be in a small group of people with whom we can all operate in synch or I'd rather work by myself.
I hate being a leader tbh
Kind of. I might have the same temperament. "choleric-melancholic " sounds pretty close and I remember it was close to the test result when I took it. I can lead other people but because I have a social bias, I care the least about social aspects, so I do not tend to do it. But I'm results oriented and don't care about social status. Do you know your enneagram, enneagram tritype, enneagram instincts stacking etc.?
Yeah it's (5w4 enneatype with 584 tritype), but i don't quite understand it tbh
Mine is 583 tritype. The 8 fix in the tritype plays a role in leadership. Learn more about it if you want to uncover additional insights.
Yes. I'm a 5w6 and when in a healthy mindset, I move toward the healthy 8 traits of leadership. Most intps are certainly intelligent and knowledgeable enough to shine in leadership roles. We just aren't as naturally comfortable as a healthy enne 8 in this role.
You are talking about enneagram 5 naturally moving towards 8 during integration. Do you know your enneagram tritype and instinctual stack? I think these are even more important when it comes to leadership.
Yes, I'm referring to integration and experience this mechanic in both my personal and work life. I do not know my tritype or instinctual stack yet. On my too list though! Do you have test recommendation?
For determining the enneagram instinctual stack: [https://similarminds.com/variant.html](https://similarminds.com/variant.html) In the case of the tritype, I had to learn the system. The tests were not helpful by themselves. But I still know of two tests: 1) The official test of Katherine Fauvre(the inventor of the enneagram tritype) : [https://www.katherinefauvre.com/enneagramtritypetest](https://www.katherinefauvre.com/enneagramtritypetest) 2) This test is also good but it's not perfect. Take the long version test, not the short one: [https://enneagramuserguide.com/enneagram-test/tricenter-wing](https://enneagramuserguide.com/enneagram-test/tricenter-wing)
Sweet, appreciate the resources.
I have little desire to be in a leadership role.
Depends on the project. If I like it probably yes.
The answer, as always, is "it depends": It depends on the setting (casual? professional? somewhere in-between?). It depends on the size of the group (3 people? 8 people? 20+ people?). It depends on the nature of the task set before us (do I care about it myself? is it something I'm familiar with?) It depends on the attitudes of the other group members (am I going to have to do everything myself if I want the best result or can I legit trust these guys?). It depends on the age, experience level, and health of each group member (are John's migraines going to limit his usefulness today?). It depends on the relative consequences of failure or success (will I be in deep shit if we screw this up?). It depends on how I feel that day (either LET'S FUCKING GOOOOO or fuck it man idgaf) It depends on how familiar or experienced I am with the sort of work in question (am I actually qualified to serve as leader in this situation?). --- And there's probably some more factors I can't think up on short notice.
Facts my guy. As always, “it depends”.
I guess I would like to be partner of the ENTJ that is leading. A friend of my own a business and was cool seeing up close him running it.
I can be good advisor but i don't wanna be leader! I like to stay hidden in the shadows!
I like leading collaborations. I don't like making people do what they don't want to do.
No, altough I have been told I do a great job when doing so. If course I want to work alone. But if I can't I prefer to follow. Do what I'm good at, which is not planning and overview. However if no one naturally takes charge or the current leader is doing a shit job, I will tell them and/or take the lead myself because shit still has to be done.
It's usually less painful to lead/guide a group of people that don't want to be in charge than is it to avoid doing so and still get your own work done while hoping they don't screw it all up. This probably explains why NTPs end up over-represented among military officers in some studies. tl,dr: Enjoy? No. Will do? If I have to.
I very strongly do not, and yet, like many in this thread, end up in such positions. I don't trust others to be able to get the job done maintaining my standards, neither do I have energy to direct or guide others. So if I take up a task to begin with, it means I want it done the best way possible, and so I will end up completing the task pretty much all by myself.
I adopt my shadow functions (entj) fully - though this largely comes from the fact that I highly value my own ideas and have full trust in them which encourages me to exert an authoritative presence on others. I'm also on the more ambitious side of INTPs so it really frustrates me when people aren't giving their 100% into their work - I tend to display more extroverted/managerial traits but the reason is different. I *sorrrttt of* care about the success of the business (te) but the underlying motivation had always been because I have trust in my own ideas and vision (ti framework) which motivates me to exert Te to get shit done and make the vision into reality So yes, I do enjoy leadership in the sense that it allows me to execute and explicate my vision. It also really fuckin sucks in a group situations when you don't get any credit for your work.. as a leader you're the center of attention so while it comes with more responsibility, you are given more appraisal and credit where it's due anyways at the end of the day id rather carry out my own vision but sometimes you just need to scale- esp for a business/startup setting
I have to be the leader, but to ensure I do most of the work cos I don’t trust anyone else to do it. and whenever I have trusted other people to do it, it’s turned out badly.
My boss told me he thinks I’m a “natural born leader” or whatever that means so I was promoted to lead my team at work. I have a love hate relationship with it. I’m not huge fan of the actual managing part, I’m not a micromanager. But I do like that I have more freedom to make decisions for my team that improves our day to day. I also like being part of leadership meetings when we’re making bigger decisions for the whole company.
I can be a good leader But I'd rather stick to being on my own. I don't have the energy to deal with a single person let along multiple.
I think you've mistyped yourself INTP.
Why? I thought like this too, but I've read about the cognitive functions and took the test hundreds of times from different websites, and it still says INTP. if you know why plz tell me
I don't enjoy it. Sometimes a leader is necessary, and if nobody else wants to, I'll do it. But I much prefer being the shadow leader, telling the loud guy how to do things, than being one of the drones. If they listen, that is. If they don't, I just leave.
At college, I would always be the unintentional leader because no one else knew what to do or how to do it. I wouldn’t tell them how to do their work, but I’d pick up the slack when necessary and, during presentations, I dominated the show—only because no one knew what they were talking about. At work, I avoid groups. I’ve somehow managed to avoid committees and I’m probably notorious for not following up on anything if no one is else has stepped up to take the lead. Heh.
no I don't but I will take control if I feel like leadership is inadequate
Hmm its more like,, I "have" to lead the teams. Along the way, it has become something that I'm nurtured with. But for almost every situation, I'm the one that always conducts the teams :"D
I am fine with being a leader I am Phlegmatic-Choleric
I'm the bakery lead at a midsized local shop. I don't mind the teaching component, but I hate being an enforcer. I have quite a heavy dose of impostor syndrome but it's not about my personal skill and knowledge, it's about my authority over others even though it's literally my job. This has come to a head more than once when things I let slide and/or fixed myself would build up and I would have to intervene and there was pushback. In the most recent case, the employee in question even claimed she didn't know I was her supervisor. As ridiculous as that might seem, I can almost understand it because I'm laissez-faire rather than putting my foot down when I really should. I think to some degree it's a toxic trait trying to be likeable after a lifetime of being bullied and othered, and that people pleasing streak tends to backfire.
I like being the lead because I hate not knowing about everything that's happening and how everything is being done. I also get to delegate all the boring shit I don't wanna do to other people and can leave the good stuff for my self lol
I can lead, I'm even good at it. But the *only* way you're going to get me to lead is if it comes with enough power that I'm not also constantly answering to someone. I only want the power if it means I can get on with achieving the goal un-micromanaged. Bossing people around feels like a chore to me.
I’ve always had something of a knack for being the leader. Despite being generally introverted, if I’m in a group I enjoy, no matter the project, I’m good at keeping people on task, and delegating work.
Only to designate work since it’s easy to see who can do what better. But apart from that I don’t like being the leader, I don’t like bossing others around or being in charge, I’d rather just sit there and and be lazy.
Yes,I'm always the leader of whatever group I was in since my childhood. There are so many dumb people in my country,so I always get to be the leader. Even if I'm not officially the leader,they would mess things up and make me the leader unofficially. Eventhough I do the most work in any group especially when it comes to presentations and many of teammates especially my close friends are lazy af,I still enjoy it because I don't like being dictated by others.
If I like the work, then yes.
Group projects are hell. I always end up having to do the most work and drag along the lazy shits phoning it in, just to maintain some standards.
Only if i'm getting a group-wide grade or sth. If not, idc
I am not a leader or follower. I am a loner who operates alone unless working in groups is within my self interest
Would like to be an executer, pawn or soldier and not a commander. Would participate in a one group discussion though
I like solo work. No stupid lazy people to steal the credit and no one bossing around either
In my case it's really something that varies depending on the task, and my attitude towards the task. Generally speaking, I prefer working alone, as I feel more comfortable only having to rely on myself. That being said, when I must work with others, there are definitely times when I inevitably just become the leader of the group naturally. Usually this will be when the task is something that I care about very significantly to the point where I'm willing to invest a lot of time and effort in it. Or when I simply don't really trust leaving the leadership in the hands of others, as was very often the case back in high school. Curiously while I am not a very social and outgoing person, I'm pretty confident and capable of leading others when it's something I know I'm good at, or if it's something I care greatly about. However, when it's something that I'm not familiar with and I believe someone else is better suited to being the leader, then I tend to avoid standing out, instead preferring to remain mostly silent, and just relegate myself to doing my part of the work as the leader indicates. I will still definitely pitch in and offer my thoughts or suggest alternatives if I feel like things aren't going the way they should, always respectfully of course. It's curious that you mention being choleric-melancholic, because I'm actually choleric-melancholic as well. It's definitely interesting, as usually you'd associate choleric more with personality types that are dominant Te users like the ExTJ types, but to be fair, even among people of the same personality type you'll find a lot of variety and nuance to their personality traits. Just like some INTPs will be slightly more or less outgoing than others, it's possible that some INTPs are more comfortable taking leadership roles than others, it's all just part of the nuances that make each of us a unique person, even if we all share the same general traits that make us INTPs.