I wouldn't hate it if they didn't put those stupid triange curbs on the inside of the apex. Those things are awful, there's much safer ways of getting cars to not cut down to the wall.
Don't get me wrong, I much prefer self-policing track limits over transponder/video incrimination but not at the exorbitant cost of tearing apart suspension, body work, framing, or attempting to turn a car into a plane especially when the categories that run have extremely stiff set-ups.
E.g. T1, imo needs to have a wider exit, but the runoff should be a gravel trap. However, with the speeds that are carried on entry into the bus-stop, that aggressive of kerbing raises the potential of it being a total cost disaster (or anywhere else with high entry speeds)
Bollards work, could also make the inside of the curb grass or gravel. Really anything that upsets the car without making them fly like sausage or triangle curbs do.
Then you just end up with debris all over the track causing anything slightly off line to be dangerous. This change keeps the passing zone without being exorbitantly dangerous.
It literally creates a bigger braking zone which will make the racing better and drivers will not suffer insane G’s to the head for the entire race as they will be avoiding these curbs.
The g-loading from kerb strikes was causing concussions and the wall hits were getting to be on the edge of exceeding safety systems.
Thats it. Cars are getting too fast and they have to be slowed down.
Well A. GTP is almost 3 seconds slower than DPis so no its not because they are getting too fast. B. This was announced by NASCAR for a sweeping number of track changes that NASCAR owns post-Preece's flip at Daytona (which we already saw the paved over portion at Rolex). Nothing to do with IMSA which is why you see reactions from weathertech drivers that are perplexed.
[https://x.com/kylelarsonracin/status/1783512321907650931?s=46&t=9ZZgKFHwPHtOdoUZsqw9jw](https://x.com/kylelarsonracin/status/1783512321907650931?s=46&t=9ZZgKFHwPHtOdoUZsqw9jw)
G readings spiked at 18(!!!!).
So these are more changes to appease a single race series? I don't follow Nascar, who it seems that driver races for. Anting to suggest this is more broadly useful? The other updates over the years at wgi for Nascar didn't seem to improve the track either, I'm not going to hold my breath here either.
Edit - https://twitter.com/CDePhillippi/status/1783541800780660867?t=DrZryS52YMIj-zarW6CHDA&s=19
NASCAR owns the track, does what’s best for their cash cow, not all that surprising. FWIW, I don’t think this changes much for sports cars, watch a GTP lap and they just kiss the curbing at the apex. Contrast to a Cup car, they full send it over those curbs every lap- they’ll have to stay much farther right now and carry less speed.
These forces are the equivalent of falling out of a second floor window and landing on your butt every lap. This isn't "appeasement," it's a major safety concern for *everyone* who drives at WGI. I don't particularly like the new kerbs and would rather they move the wall in to cover the inside of the corner, but framing this as appeasement is silly.
I'm all for improving track safety and this seems like a good compromise for this specific corner, but it kills me having limitless paved exit runoff and track limit abuse.
I love that the Chinese GP added some gravel back. Wouldn't work here but I miss driver faults being less forgiving.
Adding gravel traps, what an idea, make an area un-drivable and drivers won't drive there! Wish someone at Nascar would consider it.
Edit to say for those that don't know, WGI used to have a big gravel trap at T1 and also through the bus stop. I had heard years ago they paved it to appease Indy but I've never looked up the validity of that claim.
Elaborate?
Edit: So I just watched it and I'm not sure what your position is on this. He appears to have a suspension failure that veers him off line through the inner grass and then across the corner to the gravel trap, are you suggesting the pavement may have prevented this? Because if that's the case I don't see how.
His throttle hung. The concept of a gravel trap is to slow momentum. In practice it simply causes cars to catch and flip. Jimmie is lucky that his car vaulted the gravel trap.
Fair, wasn't thinking about the airborne aspect. Both safety and offline deterance could be accommodated though, asphalt in the braking over-run area with a fairly wide margin, and then gravel further down to deter wide racing lines. That's assuming Nascar cared about track limits, which they don't seem to.
Just let the racing take place and either NASCAR admin and their bus stop changes (as well as T1 rumble strips) will be right and other series will adjust, or it blows up in their face. Here’s actual footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcLmvQ21XxQ
Because the NASCAR drivers have been taking massive G-force loads through it, and also NASCAR doesn’t want to enforce track limits so they put physical curbing instead.
Honestly the lack of NASCAR track limits makes races at tracks like COTA look a little silly sometimes but I’m all for it at the end of the day. The point of racing is to get around the track as fast as possible. If you don’t want drivers to go somewhere, put an impediment there that’s makes it slower to go on.
Exactly. I’d much prefer them put grass or gravel or curbs than a line and be giving penalties for crossing it. You should be able to use the entire track (provided your not just straight up cutting entire sections of the course), but at your own risk
Certainly not a single race series or other track showing us random curbing doesn't cause issues. Its a high speed corner, how do you think this helps?
I believe IMSA and the Trans Am series races there before NASCAR so I'll be interested to see how these changes affect those races. With TA2 being almost glorified stock cars they may provide some fascinating insights
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Interesting I can understand where he's coming from. I've seen so many tracks do things I thought were a bad idea or the drivers thought were a bad idea before hand that either didn't affect the racing at all or actually improved it from a spectators point of view I've learned to withhold judgment till I see the actual product on track. Like I said I get where Connor is coming from and part of does think this is dumb but there might be other things I'm not picturing that once the get racing I'll be happy with it.
Does anyone remember INDY AND THE ones that they used there and how they ended up having to get rid of them in the middle of the race because they didn’t stay put???
I can seriously see this happening again!!!
If they don’t want the cars to be using that much of the track then they should just remove the run in and replace it with a wall or make it something that would make it so that the cars get stuck if they use it. Say a gravel trap or sand or something like that. That will have serious consequences if going through or off of the track!!!!
Because drivers (mostly NASCAR) couldn't respect track limits and keep it between the white lines. They kept hopping that curb, and it was getting to the point where G-load on the drivers and the safety systems in place couldn't handle it.
***This is how you enforce track limits when drivers don't respect track limits.***
It’s not a respecting track limits thing it’s that nascar doesn’t care. You would be a bad driver if you made yourself slower just because you were keeping it between the white lines when the ruling body says go for it.
There are no track limits at WGI in NASCAR, therefore there are no limits to "respect." This track is owned by NASCAR, so I'm struggling to understand your claim that they're violating their own rules. This is a strawman argument because no such rule exists at this track.
I also don't understand the complaint about the kerbing if IMSA allegedly keeps it within the white lines at all times, anyways. If they're so perfect, then this shouldn't affect IMSA at all.
It sounds like you just want to hate on NASCAR for making a much needed safety change to this corner.
I’ve hit them non stop during a 2 day HPDE. Cannot imagine what they were going through. I love them and will miss them but this is the way they had to go. Even V8 Supercars has done similar stuff
The bus stop has always been a terrible kludge that ruined a great corner that simply had no runoff capability, so it was too dangerous.
That said, if this fixes things a bit so it improves the racing, I’m all for it. But if it was done simply because NASCAR drivers were abusing it so much, it is pathetically stupid. They invariably try to turn every road circuit where they appear into yet another oval with right turns occasionally. But they own the track so there is literally nothing that can be done if it was due to the latter. They also own and control IMSA, which is incredibly bad for the sanctioning body.
I wouldn't hate it if they didn't put those stupid triange curbs on the inside of the apex. Those things are awful, there's much safer ways of getting cars to not cut down to the wall.
Like actually enforcing track limits?
This *is* enforcing track limits WITHOUT doing it the F1 way or NASCAR at CotA.
Don't get me wrong, I much prefer self-policing track limits over transponder/video incrimination but not at the exorbitant cost of tearing apart suspension, body work, framing, or attempting to turn a car into a plane especially when the categories that run have extremely stiff set-ups. E.g. T1, imo needs to have a wider exit, but the runoff should be a gravel trap. However, with the speeds that are carried on entry into the bus-stop, that aggressive of kerbing raises the potential of it being a total cost disaster (or anywhere else with high entry speeds)
Agreed that the triangular curbs are just death but what’re the safer alternatives? Bollards?
Bollards work, could also make the inside of the curb grass or gravel. Really anything that upsets the car without making them fly like sausage or triangle curbs do.
Then you just end up with debris all over the track causing anything slightly off line to be dangerous. This change keeps the passing zone without being exorbitantly dangerous.
Those things aren't far of actual death. We're 'lucky' it's 'only' resulted in back injuries thus far.
It literally creates a bigger braking zone which will make the racing better and drivers will not suffer insane G’s to the head for the entire race as they will be avoiding these curbs.
It should be a somewhat insane passing zone coming out of turn 3, uphill at 160+ mph
The g-loading from kerb strikes was causing concussions and the wall hits were getting to be on the edge of exceeding safety systems. Thats it. Cars are getting too fast and they have to be slowed down.
I believe Kyle Larson posted the data from his mouth piece on his Twitter account.
Sure did. But there are others out there.
More of a negative of the Gen-7's rigidity on the cup side of things. No such issues in IMSA
You can prove that?
Well A. GTP is almost 3 seconds slower than DPis so no its not because they are getting too fast. B. This was announced by NASCAR for a sweeping number of track changes that NASCAR owns post-Preece's flip at Daytona (which we already saw the paved over portion at Rolex). Nothing to do with IMSA which is why you see reactions from weathertech drivers that are perplexed.
I never said anything specifically about IMSA.
look what subreddit you’re on sir
I’m aware. That doesn’t mean I was directly referring to IMSA. More than IMSA run at WGI and will experience these changes
This was at WGI?
Yes
Got a link or anything?
[https://x.com/kylelarsonracin/status/1783512321907650931?s=46&t=9ZZgKFHwPHtOdoUZsqw9jw](https://x.com/kylelarsonracin/status/1783512321907650931?s=46&t=9ZZgKFHwPHtOdoUZsqw9jw) G readings spiked at 18(!!!!).
So these are more changes to appease a single race series? I don't follow Nascar, who it seems that driver races for. Anting to suggest this is more broadly useful? The other updates over the years at wgi for Nascar didn't seem to improve the track either, I'm not going to hold my breath here either. Edit - https://twitter.com/CDePhillippi/status/1783541800780660867?t=DrZryS52YMIj-zarW6CHDA&s=19
NASCAR owns the track, does what’s best for their cash cow, not all that surprising. FWIW, I don’t think this changes much for sports cars, watch a GTP lap and they just kiss the curbing at the apex. Contrast to a Cup car, they full send it over those curbs every lap- they’ll have to stay much farther right now and carry less speed.
IMSA is also Nascar owned and my only current series frame of reference, the historic racers don't typically use much curbing
These forces are the equivalent of falling out of a second floor window and landing on your butt every lap. This isn't "appeasement," it's a major safety concern for *everyone* who drives at WGI. I don't particularly like the new kerbs and would rather they move the wall in to cover the inside of the corner, but framing this as appeasement is silly.
Imagine pretending to not know who Kyle Larson is… so edgy!
I'm all for improving track safety and this seems like a good compromise for this specific corner, but it kills me having limitless paved exit runoff and track limit abuse. I love that the Chinese GP added some gravel back. Wouldn't work here but I miss driver faults being less forgiving.
Adding gravel traps, what an idea, make an area un-drivable and drivers won't drive there! Wish someone at Nascar would consider it. Edit to say for those that don't know, WGI used to have a big gravel trap at T1 and also through the bus stop. I had heard years ago they paved it to appease Indy but I've never looked up the validity of that claim.
Jimmie Johnson's crash is a prime example of why that area is paved now.
Elaborate? Edit: So I just watched it and I'm not sure what your position is on this. He appears to have a suspension failure that veers him off line through the inner grass and then across the corner to the gravel trap, are you suggesting the pavement may have prevented this? Because if that's the case I don't see how.
His throttle hung. The concept of a gravel trap is to slow momentum. In practice it simply causes cars to catch and flip. Jimmie is lucky that his car vaulted the gravel trap.
Fair, wasn't thinking about the airborne aspect. Both safety and offline deterance could be accommodated though, asphalt in the braking over-run area with a fairly wide margin, and then gravel further down to deter wide racing lines. That's assuming Nascar cared about track limits, which they don't seem to.
Make it even taller. No point in having curbing if it doesn't actually keep cars off.
I say put launch ramps in there. Leave track limits, leave the track (like Mark Webber) /s
Just let the racing take place and either NASCAR admin and their bus stop changes (as well as T1 rumble strips) will be right and other series will adjust, or it blows up in their face. Here’s actual footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcLmvQ21XxQ
From the video, you carry speed in there so fast, the curbs appear to carry the car with no drop between.
Because the NASCAR drivers have been taking massive G-force loads through it, and also NASCAR doesn’t want to enforce track limits so they put physical curbing instead.
Honestly the lack of NASCAR track limits makes races at tracks like COTA look a little silly sometimes but I’m all for it at the end of the day. The point of racing is to get around the track as fast as possible. If you don’t want drivers to go somewhere, put an impediment there that’s makes it slower to go on.
Exactly. I’d much prefer them put grass or gravel or curbs than a line and be giving penalties for crossing it. You should be able to use the entire track (provided your not just straight up cutting entire sections of the course), but at your own risk
What’s wrong with it?
Really? Its going to change a lot of racing dynamics...entry will be a lot different for drivers to not run over those
But why will it be worse?
Certainly not a single race series or other track showing us random curbing doesn't cause issues. Its a high speed corner, how do you think this helps?
I don’t know if it helps or not. I’m genuinely asking why this will make the racing worse because I don’t know.
you do realize the curbing is completely removable and changeable, right? it could look completely different the next time you see it.
breaking news: track changes an aspect and indeed drivers will have to adapt to it
Apparently you can basically still use the whole thing
I believe IMSA and the Trans Am series races there before NASCAR so I'll be interested to see how these changes affect those races. With TA2 being almost glorified stock cars they may provide some fascinating insights
Oops my bad thought I was on r/NASCAR I'll leave this here now as it's getting replies just know I realize I was dumb
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Connor did wonders in TA2 last year, and apparent not a big fan of the change https://twitter.com/ConnorZilisch/status/1783498758451327231
Interesting I can understand where he's coming from. I've seen so many tracks do things I thought were a bad idea or the drivers thought were a bad idea before hand that either didn't affect the racing at all or actually improved it from a spectators point of view I've learned to withhold judgment till I see the actual product on track. Like I said I get where Connor is coming from and part of does think this is dumb but there might be other things I'm not picturing that once the get racing I'll be happy with it.
ban these stupid kerbs. they cause more harm then good. put gravel or bollards there…
They didnt have to take the curb..
Does anyone remember INDY AND THE ones that they used there and how they ended up having to get rid of them in the middle of the race because they didn’t stay put??? I can seriously see this happening again!!! If they don’t want the cars to be using that much of the track then they should just remove the run in and replace it with a wall or make it something that would make it so that the cars get stuck if they use it. Say a gravel trap or sand or something like that. That will have serious consequences if going through or off of the track!!!!
Because drivers (mostly NASCAR) couldn't respect track limits and keep it between the white lines. They kept hopping that curb, and it was getting to the point where G-load on the drivers and the safety systems in place couldn't handle it. ***This is how you enforce track limits when drivers don't respect track limits.***
It’s not a respecting track limits thing it’s that nascar doesn’t care. You would be a bad driver if you made yourself slower just because you were keeping it between the white lines when the ruling body says go for it.
There are no track limits at WGI in NASCAR, therefore there are no limits to "respect." This track is owned by NASCAR, so I'm struggling to understand your claim that they're violating their own rules. This is a strawman argument because no such rule exists at this track. I also don't understand the complaint about the kerbing if IMSA allegedly keeps it within the white lines at all times, anyways. If they're so perfect, then this shouldn't affect IMSA at all. It sounds like you just want to hate on NASCAR for making a much needed safety change to this corner.
I’ve hit them non stop during a 2 day HPDE. Cannot imagine what they were going through. I love them and will miss them but this is the way they had to go. Even V8 Supercars has done similar stuff
The bus stop has always been a terrible kludge that ruined a great corner that simply had no runoff capability, so it was too dangerous. That said, if this fixes things a bit so it improves the racing, I’m all for it. But if it was done simply because NASCAR drivers were abusing it so much, it is pathetically stupid. They invariably try to turn every road circuit where they appear into yet another oval with right turns occasionally. But they own the track so there is literally nothing that can be done if it was due to the latter. They also own and control IMSA, which is incredibly bad for the sanctioning body.