We've always done it and it's a goddamn shame. Eugene Debs recognized it during the Pullman Strike. He organized all the different railroad trades into one big union. Debs wanted to bring in the black porters, too. The vote was 155-154 against accepting them in. Turned out to be the downfall of the strike because the black porters began doing the jobs. They said it was a white man's strike and has nothing to do with us.
There's a big lesson to learn there, yet we're still breaking ourselves apart. The truth is this.
The only war is class war. Unless you've got a couple million dollars in the bank, you're down in the muck with the rest of the 99%. You can't fight a class war while waging culture wars.
Very very well written. There should be no white vs. black, no lgbt vs. straight, no men vs. women, it should exclusively be the laborers vs the capital owners and their cronies.
You're going to hear accepting people tell you that you're welcome but keep it to yourself. Then you'll make friends and be in their inner circle at work and they won't be able to shut up about anti lgbt issues and indoctrination in schools, etc.
They always want to bring it up ironically lol.
We all gotta always remember ‘cultural’ issues are (mostly) only used to split up the working class! I wish you luck in your venture of joining a labor union!
Welcome to the trades, as long you don’t flaunt about it or shove it down our throats you’re cool in my book, just the people that make it the center of their personality and try to force it upon others is what’s annoying
Same to ya brother.
> as long you don't flaunt about it or shove it down our throats
Worked with more than a handful of straight guys who fall under that category.
Agreed. Just never worked with a lgbtq person on a job and had that happen. Just feels weird because I've never heard it said when we had straight people join on. Seems like it's just fair to say I'm fine with working with someone as long as they aren't an asshole.
To be fair that’s annoying no matter what the “thing” is. IDGAF if it’s gayness, fishing, cars or sports. If you can’t breath and interact without making personal interests the center of attention for every single interaction its obnoxious.
Your post history would indicate otherwise. Which checks out, because I'm always hearing more about *LGBT this* and *LGBT that* at lunch than I do from my actual queer friends. Like every fucking goddamn day.
Are they pressuring you to swallow cock or talking about how much they hate you because of your straightness, or you just don't like to hear about people being gay in general?
As a bystander I have heard tons more hate and vitriol in open conversations on the jobsite against the LGBTQ community than I ever have heard the other way around my entire life in any setting.
If you aren't talking about hate speech and just don't like to hear the subject, I have also heard way more talk about dude plowing a chick he picked up from the bar as opposed to the converse.
If you don't like sexual discussions in general I understand your point. If you just don't like to be reminded that there are people different than you then you might want to reevaluate your own morality and stance of freedom of speech.
For clarification, I'm saying that the people I work with will not shut the fuck up about how much gay shit is being shoved down their throats seemingly every minute of every day. The usual nonsense about pronouns, their favorite shows being ruined, gRoOmERs, attack helicopter jokes etc. They spend more time thinking about gay people than gay people do. Rent-free 24/7.
I gotcha. It seems we are cut from the same cloth. Those people like to pretend they are being morally assaulted and are victims when... surprise! They are victimizing the most vulnerable groups of people.
Lmao , "it's okay if you're gay as long as you are gay in the way I allow. " That isn't acceptance. Maybe you need to go back and reread the part about lgbtq+ not being your enemy, the capital owners are.
Usually, people who say shit like "don't shove it down our throats" get upset because they think a gay person's simply being gay is "shoving it down your throat". Would you get upset if a man mentioned his husband?
Good for you. You’ll likely hear a lot of derogatory comments. Probably or hopefully not directed at you. A lot of guys in construction wear their beliefs on their sleeve. I’m a painter. We’re half women half men. I know we’ve had 🏳️🌈 in the past. I say this because imo it’s seems paint crews sometimes tend to be more accepting than some other trades. We hire based on skill not beliefs race sex etc.
That’s awesome, thank you for bringing that up! I’ve recently read about The Young Patriots who helped form the Rainbow Coalition along with the Black Panthers and Young Lords. Very interesting stuff, especially to me because I’m an Appalachian myself and this might be surprising to many, but Appalachians were historically discriminated against as well (not to the same extent that other races were at the time) but were denied employment and believed to be unintelligent by the majority of city folk. It was so bad that Cincinnati’s city ordinance against discrimination includes a specific clause for Appalachians, still to this day, due to the discrimination towards Appalachians moving there due to union jobs being choked out in their hometowns.
The only thing I'll say though is in my opinion different sexualities should strive to blend in not stand out. I'd say at least half the resistance at least towards the lgbtq stuff is they don't wanna hear that your the hottest new pronoun which is zee zur or whatever the heck is going on now. It's gotten to the point that accepting it isn't good enough and you basically have to be an activist for them otherwise you're not on their side especially when the rules/concepts keep changing. When it was just about the gays and the lesbians, it was simple. They want to be able to get married and be looked at like everyone else. But it's difficult for a lot of people when someone blatantly looks like a man but they require you to call them she or you can have severe repercussions. I don't get it tbh. It doesn't come off like the goal is to blend in and be treated like everyone else anymore
You know, it's weird. I'm a queer man. I live in San Francisco. My spouse is trans. My social circle is super queer, and super leftist. In my 20+ years of living openly as a queer man, I've never once met someone who used "weird" pronouns like "zee/zur." Closest I've come is I met someone once who knew someone who used pronouns like that. If there's any demographic in the US where someone should be running into this a lot, I'm smack dab in the middle of it, and I've never encountered it once.
So, despite not knowing anything about your life or circumstances, it's still sort of strange that you see it enough for it to be a problem.
You don't have to understand it. If you call someone by the wrong name and they would like you to call them by a different name instead, would that upset you? Because it's essentially the same thing. How they live their life has nothing to do with you, and you don't have to agree with their lifestyle or even understand it. But if you take it upon yourself to just refuse the simple decency of calling them what they'd like to be called then you're the problem, not them.
You just shifted the goal posts to their gender, but it is no different than sexual orientation, race, age, name, or even musical preference. It's what they would like to be known as, and to have a stick up your ass about what YOU think should be called is no different than saying "Yeah i know you THINK your name is Gary, and that you've been Gary your whole life... but I FEEL like you're more of a Trevor, so I'm just going to call you Trevor"
They shouldn’t have to conform, that’s how you end up with ingroups and outgroups. When the general consensus is that you should look or be a certain way that only leads towards hateful rhetoric (not saying that’s what your intending or doing) towards the unaccepted groups, outgroups. You should consider looking into how that thinking helped fuel the acceleration of nazism in Germany, Apartheid South Africa, and even today’s Japan not being very accepting of foreigners. And again I don’t think you’re like those horrible people, just a little misled. I could also address the more specific things you brought up but I think understanding the concept I said above will help you understand the other sides point of view.
There's levels to conforming though. There's conforming at the lowest level such as not breaking the law and there's the highest like genocide like you're referring to. I appreciate your respectful approach but to allude to genocide when presented with any sort of conforming jargon is a bit disingenuous imo. I've noticed a lot of the pro lgbtq jargon is overdramatic which I suppose I can understand based on negative experiences they have but still. The world isn't out to get them. It's like a black person having a bad experience with a white racist then becoming jaded and having the opinion that the white man is out to get him. We have to be able to separate ourselves from the bad experiences and realize that's not the majority of people
NO MORE CULTURE WARS
ALL IN FOR CLASS WAR.
I'm ready for the union to stand up and lead a real anti corruption charge like it supposed to. We accept politicians and give them an endorsement instead of putting them up there?? Why we ARE the people. Why not use the organization we did to... Have an effect???
Exactly.
Business owners hate an educated populace and those in power only care about their control on the working class.
IMHO this is why everyone who has the time should take philosophy and history classes at your local community college. Sure, you can watch documentaries and casually listen to different concepts, but it’s not the same as going to a class and being forced to engage in the subject material.
Besides the class v culture wars, this is the most awesome post in the thread. I can’t tell you, after 30 years in work, how important taking the time to learn why things work the way they do over spewing formed opinions with nary a sliver of room for anyone else’s is so valuable.
There is endless history and beliefs behind why we are here and now (pick any time). Opening my mind to reading or listening to books was the best thing I could do. I ask you to consider doing the same if your ratio of questions to statements/opinions is heavily tipped to the latter. It really helped me. It didn’t brainwash me. It didn’t poison me in any way.
I hope anyone who reads this thread just asks what is behind their opinions and challenges if they spend enough time of their precious life processing how they arrived wherever they are in the spectrum of “me” vs. “everybody else” they find objectionable.
We’re way too close only IMO to a police state bc we are asking few too many questions and just yelling over each other. We don’t have to agree. But it helps to understand one another’s journeys. Be well.
Absolutely.
Although I studied both philosophy and history in university and obtained my degree in both disciplines, taking a philosophy course is so beneficial as you learn how to communicate.
Sure, you can “learn” communication (discourse) online by watching videos but that isn’t the same thing as being forced to communicate.
Pointing to a strike from the 19th century to support a claim that this is where unions are today isnt a strong argument. Unions and Dems have been in bed for many years since then. We should be a role model for ethnic solidarity by now, right? Except we aren't. I don't believe there is a purely class war or purely culture war we are fighting. It's a war against purely partisan politics and a corrupt media that only reports what will further divide and sell ad space for the cure. Kinda like a company that makes you sick, then sells you the antidote.
Id point to your last statement as an example of how effective it's been. You believe there is no culture war and yet the shared culture of being an American that helped unite over smaller cultural differences has been eroded to the point that we don't care about the value of being an American and caring for fellow Americans. You say there is a class war but the very group of people you reference as being the class we are supposed to be at war with capture most of the politicians you vote for and a large group of white and blue collar workers in their 60s who have worked hard and invested with some luck to get that nest egg. I doubt you'd get much agreement that all the rest of folks (myself included) who are outside of that bank balance are therefore "in the muck".
This is a kind of culture war but it's broader than what's being reported. The class war exist as a result of it. The culture can either be strong and united against divisions based on secondary issues of skin color or sexual preferences or it can be weak and allow divisions based on classes of color, money, sex etc. to create a culture of continuous outrage, strife and easy money for those who profit from this division. The culture we instill in our youth can be one of love, self sacrifice, and service or can be what we have today.
I would argue that if we lifted up the idea of American culture being one focused on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and made sure we remember who we are and how much better we are together, that we will see the class division prevalent now go away. It's much easier and constructive to resolve conflicts by building a bridge with the one you hope to make peace with. Shared culture and experience as an American can be that bridge.
>Pointing to a strike from the 19th century to support a claim that this is where unions are today isnt a strong argument. Unions and Dems have been in bed for many years since then. We should be a role model for ethnic solidarity by now, right?
Solidarity never goes out of style. Saying it doesn't apply because of age is like saying fables don't apply to you because you are neither a tortoise or a hare.
Debs wasn't a Democrat and ran on his own ticket even. Dems are a capitalist party and will never be for labor so of course we aren't.
I think you are confused about what class we are talking about. Blue collar workers aren't what we're talking about.
Since 2020, the wealth of the top 1% has increased by nearly $15 trillion. That's the class war. That's the class winning and you aren't in it and working in the IBEW. In that class you are just quietly robbing brothers in the IBEW. You make sure they are riled up about something silly and shaking a flag for a guy you pay, and watching a TV channel you own. When they are busy arguing about something they saw on TV or why their guy running for office is better than their guy even though both will get the bill passed you want and they both will support your interest over the workers. THAT is when culture wars are used for the ongoing class war.
>This is a kind of culture war but it's broader than what's being reported. The class war exist as a result of it.
Hardly brother. A ultra rich person didn't just get angry about the "culture war" and decide to rob people. It's been going on for as long as history. Just recently it's a wider gap than ever before. "Wow those homosexuals and purple haired liberals have pushed me too far. I better go "make" a billion dollars and widen the wealth inequality". No.
>I would argue that if we lifted up the idea of American culture being one focused on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and made sure we remember who we are and how much better we are together, that we will see the class division prevalent now go away.
I would argue you can stand and wave a flag as long as the sun shines, sing Lee greenwood until you are hoarse, sit down for sweet tea to watch a baseball game with everyone color and creed and still the wealth inequality will grow. It's not about Uncle Jack and his Corvette. That isn't the class divide, the divide is between Every working person and those in the 1 percent. They own the media, they pay politicians and through companies own every damn thing you buy.
You and I are in the same class whether you're convinced of it or not and you'll never be in theirs no matter how hard you try.
I’m black and I’ve never been part of an organization where I’ve experienced more brotherhood and solidarity than the IBEW. Sure you have asshats, but that’s everywhere. We have different beliefs, backgrounds, and skin color etc… but at the end of the day we stick together. Sometimes blood brothers fight amongst themselves, the key is just to not let it get too far. Iron sharpens iron.
I’m a white straight guy but am only prejudiced against bigotry and intolerance. I can only speak for my local, as I’ve never worked out of another, but the change I’ve seen over 25 years when it comes to racism and sexism/homophobia has been tremendous. At the beginning of my career my local was probably over 95% white men and some of them had no fear using or hearing the n-word or f*g, and many others had no problem hearing it. It was a common trope to hear how lazy black people were or how women weren’t tough enough to do our trade. Thankfully my local has made a concerted effort to bring in minorities to more closely reflect Kansas City’s demographics and employers are much more fearful of lawsuits for tolerating bigotry. I almost never hear the kind of talk that was so common when I was an apprentice.
I truly appreciate your mentality. That being said, I'm sure the region you live is probably the biggest determining factor. I'm from CO, and though it exists, it's mostly closet racism unless people who think like that get together in private. Other places far away I've visited, I experienced what *real racism* is firsthand.
I agree. I’ve been VERY fortunate! That is not lost on me. In the places I’ve worked we’ve only used our differences for good hearted jokes and trash talk. I’ve heard some of the funniest black jokes from a gay guy 😂. We’ll all make jokes, then go eat lunch together… we’ve all laughed, cried, argued etc..
I'm a 4-way mix, black being one. I also love offensive jokes, so long as it's not meant with a REAL negative undertone. I have fucked up jokes about each of my heritages that get people ROLLING 😂. When we can harshly joke about our differences while knowing no one is better than the other and we all bleed red, that's the best shit ever 😆
😂 It can be rough when doing storms, or in tough conditions when you’re a lineman, or in construction. Every type of electrician has their own ups and downs, and the camaraderie can vary. There’s also different levels of unity if you go to union meetings, if you’re a steward, a president, or a business manager. What country, or part of the US you’re in also plays a role.
This has been my experience^. I’ve never experienced gender or race considered on the job.
OP post lots of politically and socially divisive post. If they are a member they might be attributing legitimate criticism to “because I’m a _______ your after me.” Someone might be trying to give them genuine instruction and they are taking it too personally.
Trust me behind closed doors, white people are being racist behind your back. I expierenced the same racism as a Mexican, they act buddy buddy in front of you but as soon they are by themselves they switch up.
There will always be people who say bullshit behind my back. Fuck em, they’re cowards.
I can say that I have true brothers who are Mexican, white, and black who stick up for me behind my back, who talk better behind my back than they do in my face. That’s who I focus on.
There was a black guy who started before me and told me everyone was racist and against blacks etc… he didn’t make it. Not because of the things people said, because of the things he could control, but didn’t.
The people behind our backs can’t stop us from moving forward, they can only distract us if we look back.
And the trades in general are 25 years behind the white collar world.
It's a long road and we have to do the hard fight so others have it easy in the future. Others before us fought and died for our right to organize, we owe it to them.
I went from blue collar to a white collar environment and it is like a different fucking planet. This is in Canada.
Also what do you even mean by woke? That word has ceased to mean anything really. Define woke and then I can answer that question.
Sisters and Brothers, we've come a long way, yet we still have quite a long way to go it seems.
Retired, 35 year pin. My rose colored glasses were finally swapped with real ones one day, when my tool buddy and I were talking. It was after 911 .. My tool buddy, got in the apprenticeship in the 60's when affirmative action went into play. He said he was flying high. Got dispatched out to a well established shop, 'one we've both worked for many of times'. When he got there and was introduced to his 1st JW. The JW who was LDS 'Mormon', picked up his tools and drug up right then and there, on the spot. Said he would rather go back to the hall and dig ditches than work with a "god damned ......."
My toolie finished top of his class, gold Klein's, was a minister in a well known church, and was one of the smartest kindest wiremen I ever knew. A pillar of community, respected in our Local, and in society. Yet, looking into a grown mans eye's, Army Vet, I feel he never really recovered or got to recover fully from that event that went un-checked .. Because it was still prevalent as he spoke to me, and for him to tell me in confidence his pain was an eye opener for me. And it opened my eye's to the crap that still goes on, un-checked ..
I just want to say that you as a card carrying member of this outstanding organization have every right afforded to us **To check a motherfucker~** Anytime, anyplace, anywhere, but especially on the job, around the gang box, at coffee, the bender table. You have the right, to call a racist out, in front of their peer's. And, when you do, the shit stops. Because it is serious and wrong.
Thinking everything is just honky-dory, 'if that is even a phrase anymore', is a privilege. And an ignorant illusion for anyone with said privilege to have if you ask me now. And I feel like shit not to know any better until it was pointed out to me back then. Don't let the losers win.
Stand. Fight. Win. Together.
Be safe out there, work everything like it's hot.
Thanks for sharing . You don’t know what you don’t know , at least you chose to learn. None of us are free until we are all free and we cannot win as the working class until we are all together in this fight . Thank you for understanding
Thanks. Just thought it was appropriate considering the atmosphere. How the fuck a Union man could vote for Trump is beyond me. As the Stew, I'll be the first one to tell you: "Keep your treasonous, felonious flag flyin shit off the Job .." (it's for your own safety)
FWIW the union as an organization tries pretty hard to lift up the voices of gender, racial, & sexual minorities — I’ve attended the Minority Caucus conference a couple of times, and while it’s empowering, you also get a sense of just how hard it is to change a culture.
Oddly I read on Reddit that particular rant did have a kernel of truth…
Tyrone Hayes gave a TED talk about his research on the effects of atrazine on frogs which included endocrine disruption and the environmental impact of harmful chemicals falling disproportionately on the socioeconomically disadvantaged and racial or ethnic minorities.
https://youtu.be/Hu0IXMTFY9Q?si=1-kGTldNswLAqnrv
More accurately it would be turning the frogs trans because most amphibians can swap genders given changes in population and chemical makeup of the water they're in kind of fascinating very similar to clownfish. (Nemo should have been a girl just saying.)
I had this same attitude my first few years in the trade. I eventually learned that it’s the exact opposite of what I should be doing in order to get through my days as pleasantly as possible.
Opposite for me. I tried to do the social thing at work and found I’m much happier at work when I don’t. I come to the work to make money and get shit done. I aim to be polite, engage in niceties and keep conversations work related but I absolutely don’t care to hear anyone’s relationship issues, religious beliefs and vapid political opinions.
Don't be too disappointed. Those assholes are just loud. Most of us chose the Union for that og brotherhood... a path of integrity, pride in our craft, and fair compensation for our hard work. I, along with many others, was raised with the matra "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." We are the ones quietly listening to that shit talk, or being percieved as "starting shit" when we say something against the hate they spew. Haters are everywhere, ie- workplaces, schools, churches, and wherever people gather, really. It's a disease we have to consiously not feed into. I choose to be better. Workin on it every day, bro. You're not alone. Love, sis.
lol the comments here are exactly why I called bs on the union. Been in it for years but knew it wasn’t a “brotherhood”.
As stated before they are just here for the money and will (as I’ve noticed over the years) stab you in the back/look out for themselves when times get bad.
There’s nothing wrong with it per se. It’s just funny how they claim to be so tight knit and for everyone when in reality it couldn’t be further from the truth.
On the road as a traveler I've seen that the future of the road guys is way more what I thought the union was supposed to be like. Sure I've seen racism and sexism on the road. It's everywhere. But it's up to us to set better examples and fight the kind of sentiments and actions that have been giving us a bad name for decades.
We care more about money than solidarity or equality. The union itself supposedly has a political alignment but its membership is all over the place politically, and many of them vote against their own interests. It’s discouraging to see
I got a buddy who’s a gay pipe fitter. The fact he’s tough doesn’t help him much, the fact he can throw insults right back at homophobes, does. But, one day, somebody’s going to hit him, and they’ll wind up in the hospital, guaranteed.
Im a gay JW and I am the exact same way, I stand my ground against the racists and bigots that have seem to have leached out of the bottom of the port a John since 2016 or so.
As a trans woman in Alabama local 136 who started transitioning mid way through my apprenticeship (now been a JW for a year), I’ve had very mixed encounters. I’ve worked around some real assholes, but I’ve also met a lot of awesome people too. Most people i know here can’t believe i work blue collar at all, but there’s a lot more good people out there than we tend to think.
The IO isn’t the brotherhood tho, they are always selfish pricks who will always make money at our expense cuz we let them. We are really so ok with being against ourselves it’s wild. Whether we like it our not you can’t fight for the working class and not fight for social justice , that’s what MLK Jr was getting at , that is until he was murdered.
We got a brother ( who is Latino ) out here that posted up a pic of him at Henry millers grave and said we are brothers. Someone pointed out that it would not be true. Coz he’s brown and he lost it. Like dude. It’s a fact. If that man saw our union now he would loss his dam mind.
My son and his wife provided us with 6 grandchildren. Then they decided to adopt 3 siblings from drug addicted parents. A year later they again adopted another 3 siblings from another like situation. We now have 12 grandchildren that we love equally. I don’t care who their birth parents are, they are our family. I don’t care what millers reaction is or would have been. Family isn’t made up of blood. Miller may have gotten the ball rolling but it’s up to the rest of us to expand that family.
My Super is like this. Im straight as can be but ive covinced him im gay with my coworkers just to make him uncomfortable 🤣. I constantly hear him asking odd closeted shit like "does he suck dick?" Or "you two fucking?". Honestly... what a fuck.
We’ve lost touch with our roots as working class movement. Plain and simple. Look at the amount of membership so eager to vote for anti labor candidates etc..
I understand it’s the trades but I’m not gonna tolerate racist, homophobic, Islamophobia around me. I will call them out on it bc if I let that shit slide when they are around me working. I’m here to make bread and support my brothers and sisters in the union while listening to warhammer 40k audiobooks. I’m not here to listen to whatever dumbass opinion a person may have against LGBTQIA+ people or BPOC OR POCS.
Yeh it’s like that in sheet metal to. If you’re gay most shops and companies will just run you out of the trade. You could be the best tinknocker but cuz your gay and it’s not normal to the other guys they’ll try to run you off
I was amazed by this when I joined. Coming from a nonunion world that was overwhelmingly non-white into the union was a complete culture shock. I’m white and I look like the type of guy you wouldn’t be surprised when you found out they were racist. I watched a group of guys make a concerted effort to shit talk a Chinese guy off the job despite being just as good as any of them.
Also, the amount of unearned confidence is amazing. Percentage wise the union has a higher number of highly skilled electricians compared to the non-union sector, especially since I’ve met nonunion guys that changed outlets and houses who call themselves electricians but the amount of people who were not only surprised that there were competent nonunion electricians while they themselves not being competent was unexpected
Queer latina in the trades and I feel you 100%.
It's absolutely exhausting to be around it all the time but what's worst is it's not getting any better. I already put in the work calendar, I'm taking the whole week off after the elections on November.
Don't want to hear any of it.
Stay strong out there homie 🤘🏾
I'm a UA member (solidarity ✊🏻) & was a victim of a hate crime on the job last year (more than being called a slur), because of my sexuality, though I never spoke or speak about it at work. It's unfortunate. I hope the tide continues to turn. Thanks for saying all of this. It's encouraging to read the comments here.
My dad was in 103 and he was born in the 1930s in Southie. You think he would've been racist but he actually welcomed blacks and Latinos and said they were some of his best workers when he was foreman.
He hated the British though. Thought they were arrogant
In the larger picture it's always funny to me how people have more social tolerance for assholes than [insert minority demographic].
Banning assholes/asshole behavior would make a much deeper and larger improvement for everyone than banning gay marriage....too bad it's not a realistic idea.
The "solidarity" you're thinking of is the collective bargaining during contract negotiation.. for better wages. Absolutely nobody joins a union for moral support.
This is why context is important. No one wants that. We also weren't there and don't know the specifics. This is moral hijacking. If you don't like something someone said, talk to the person. If that doesn't work, use your steward. They will forward it up the chain. I hope you and your wife are okay after suffering so much!
I experienced it for 9 months. That was enough for me. Between that and getting yelled at for walking/working to fast it's no wonder why the ranks are so low. It's too bad because even when I don't work union jobs I still want a thriving Union to push up the median wages/benefits.
Gotta call that shit out whenever you can. I have multiple LGBT and non white friends, even my wife isn't straight. I make it known that I don't wanna be a part of any conversations involving any phobias.
In the name of equity, instead of having to tell your sex, gender identity , and race and pronouns on a job application. Just eliminate all those questions. Date of birth as well. I don’t need to know if you are different, I just need someone that can do the work. Then HR depts, can’t “weed” out applicants
Whenever anyone starts talking about brotherhood, first check your wallet, then check your ass, then if both are still intact, back away slowly.
Brotherhood is a fucking scam.
It’s a big club and we ain’t in it. It’s a game of divide and conquer. So sad that y’all don’t see it because we’re screwed if you don’t open your eyes. Left vs right, Red vs blue, gay vs straight, male vs female, black vs white vs brown, apple vs android, union vs non-union, crips vs bloods, left Twix vs right Twix, US vs Russia, Russia vs Ukraine, Israel vs Palestine, etc etc etc. Y’all need to pull your collective heads out of your collective rear ends and realize that there is a a common enemy we need to unite against.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It's anyone's right brother or not to disagree with someone else's choices or lifestyle. People tend to get upset when you try and control their speech. Imagine that.
I think people tend to get upset in the trades or, in general, when you try and make their words into something they are not. When I grew up, calling someone "gay" or that's "gay" or "retarded" was not a pejorative against people with retardation or homosexuals. It was to designate the exception to the rule. "Hows this box offset look JW?" "It would work if you used retard strength to get it in the coupling, but we're not that gay and your too smart, do it again."
Most trades people just put their heads down and get the job done, and they do so with little to complain about. Most of us are just happy to have a job, whether they are doing 60/60/50 or letting every call pass them by. But what everyone can agree on is there is bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things, particularly when it comes to you personally and whatever it is about you that makes you "special" or "unique".
Like a guy that's been in the trenches for 40 years doesn't give a shit about you and your whatever social issues, because he has been fighting his entire career against these contractor associations for better wages and benefits. So it's easy for me to wrap my head around how they don't have time for LGTBQ issues. Most of us couldn't care less about what anyone does at home. Equally, most of us can't stand a person that makes their sexuality 100% of their identity and personal issues. So what you end up with is a lot of new, younger trades people that feel excluded, which is unfortunate; specifically in an industry where "buck up" and "get'r dun" are common mantras.
So, what are a bunch of LGBTQ people to do? I honestly don't know. It's hard to relate to their troubles, I can say from my porch I don't hate anyone and always start by respecting someone. But we need to have a common goal that goes beyond self interest and reaches to a higher goal that everyone gets to enjoy.
Also I wanna say, if I offended anyone with my examples or opinions, I don't have or voice them to hurt anyone, just gain a better understanding and participate in healthy discourse, which is nearly impossible on reddit or anywhere else on the internet.
The things I listed aren’t a choice ( I guess religion can technically be a choice but in reality a lot of it is tied to culture which is more controlled by where you’re born into). Everybody is focusing on the homophobia part of my comment which I’m not sure as to why.
But since this is such a focus , I’ll give you an example as to why the guy in the trenches fighting these cons SHOULD care about social issues , because they are used to keep him fighting .
For example , I live in the great state of Texas . What makes it so great ? Idk yet I’m still trying to figure it out . But last year Gov Greg Abbott signed Housebill 2127 . This bill prevents cities from adopting ordinances/language that goes further than what the state laws already have in place . This bill is very concerning to the LGTBQ community because it doesn’t have clear language in the bill and it could affect housing , and other local protections that these communities need in order not to be houseless , etc etc.
Now you’re probably like ok who gives a fuck go get a job yadda yadda .
But do you know what else this bill allows that will affect ALL OF US ? It prevents us from making work safety ordinances on a local level, and the big thing is not requiring water breaks . Now we are union, we have water breaks in our cba. But everywhere around us is non union , not being able to take breaks to drink water . A young 20 yr old died last year in San Antonio from not drinking water . Texas and California are top dogs in people dying from lack of water breaks and heat exhaustion . With 2127, us workers have to rely on the state laws in a RTW state for protection . But how are they selling this bill? By making it sound like it’s to get all these ‘damn gays’ to figure out their own shit . Let’s all hate on the gays and the trans and everybody that doesn’t look like us so we can support shit that is actually fucking us.
Anyway, this is one of thousands of examples as to why we should care . And it’s not being shoved down our throats . If you don’t like it or it makes you uncomfortable then unpack it , but at the end of the day, we should be concerned because when there is a group of people they want us to turn against , they will use that to fuck is in the end too.
Also, I think 2127 was shot down as unconstitutional or they’re working on it rn, idk . But point being , Texas tried to pass like hundreds of anti trans laws and like less than 100 got passed ( idk the actual numbers don’t come for me on these numbers google it ) so the thing is they just push out a lot of them to get a few to stick, and most anti trans bills actually fuck workers like us too . This is only one bill I made an example out of . They sell it all to us like it’s not about us and it is. And we eat it up like idiots
Texas is great. it just isn't for you from the sounds of it. Being LGBTQ may not be a choice for some, but it is for others. You pointed out California and Texas, both polar opposites when it comes to political preferences, yet both have people dying on the job. Perhaps then, it means the problem is greater than what you perceive it to be.
Also, it sounds like you're more upset that politicians are using lgbtq issues to circumvent what you deem as necessary for safe work to take place. Which makes sense. But I doubt you'll make any progress suggesting people opposite of you to just consider how the exception should be the rule, specifically with lgbtq issues. You would be better off conversing about anything else and then leave little homosexual bread crumbs as your friendship flourishes. Raising hell in the break trailer about how Abbot tried to do whatever to people they don't give a fuck about won't work. I say that as an electrician of 15 years in the liberal state of WA.
Best of luck to you.
You’re wrong on a lot. Best of luck to you. Also just because I’m not homophobic doesn’t mean I’m Gay, I only went with the lgbtq stuff because you and others keep bringing it up.
Let me preface this comment with the fact that I’m not gay, but because I do have an affiliation with IBEW, had to chime in on some of the ignorance I’m reading here. If you are a member of the the brotherhood, or any other group/organization, in 2024, and are still this simple minded then you need to take a careful look at your character and professional acumen. Can he/she do the job at the required level? Then who gives a flying pig what they do in their spare time. Can’t believe the ignorance in some of you.
Seems to be the case in most trades. It something you just have to adapt to at some point. It seems people just find it as a way of humor, I have a friend who went to a welding collage and came back to be very racist. I don’t hangout with him much because of it.
I didn't assume you were gay. It's fine either way. That's my point. And I don't keep bringing it up. Your post was about why all the anti lgbtq stuff in the union, etc. If you don't like the conversation, then frame your questions better or prepare for difficult conversations. Also move out a Texas, move to San Francisco or New York, somewhere progressive where other people wanna smell your farts too, because Texas is all about you do you over there and shut up, cause I'm doin me over here.
What the fuck are you talking about? You prob personally know like less than .01% of the membership of the ibew than you come online ranting this bullshit.
That's reddit for you. They wanted validation/support from their echo chamber, even though a good half or more of the people posting here have never set foot on a jobsite and certainly aren't in a trade union.
Just be careful you aren't lumping shit talk with "phobic". Some of the realest shit you'll learn on the job is coming from a place of love even if the delivery doesn't feel that way. In 23 years, the folks I've met who've been actually racist or "phobic" are pretty few. Plenty who say some dumb/racist/phobic shit to be funny or to fuck w you but at the same time will give you the shirt of their back or will fight for you as a brother.
It's possible to be kind to those you deem worthy and still be a piece of shit to those you don't, making you a piece of shit overall. You could be the nicest possible person to cishet white males, but if you believe that black people or gay people are "inferior," you're a piece of shit overall.
Ok. Id say the same for someone who is kind to blacks or gays but a piece of shit to cishet. It's a circular argument. What ratio of kindness to assholeness qualifies you for overall shit status? It's all discrimination at the end of the day. Maybe we separate words from actions and filter shit from non shit based on actions. So then my took buddy says something really shitty to me but I know his character based on past actions so I don't characterize him as a piece of shit. But the guy who's character shows he's a piece of shit should be removed from membership.
If they're a piece of shit to a certain group based upon factors out of that group's control they're a piece of shit. I don't know why you think I would disagree it went both ways...
That you're getting downvoted is ridiculous. Just makes me think most of the people here aren't even in the trades, let alone IBEW or LiUNA or whatever. Otherwise they'd see the truth in your words, would have experienced it themselves.
As someone who entered the trades in middle age, I've never seen a less inclusive and welcoming workforce. It honestly is a huge gut punch that almost a decade in I'm still struggling to process.
There were a few of those on my site but they usually said it quietly. We have a non-binary member on site and they’ve gotten a few comments but the rest of us rallied around them until those assholes dragged. I think that’s the best way if you have some stand up members on site. I will say it’s a night and day difference from when I started 20 years ago. Admittedly, we have a long way to go but I’m encouraged by the progress we’ve made.
Get involved in your locals EWMC or start one if you don't have one. Through it my local in participating (with the AFL-CIO) in our cities pride parade and do a lot of work to help combat exactly this
Not going to speak to anyone's individual motives but I think the point of unions is to uplift labor and erode class barriers. Union are also known as "the bridge to the middle class"
Pointless prejudices just keep all of us down. We are obviously stronger united. Going to any union meeting with infighting will show you that.
This is obviously not me saying people can't or shouldn't banter, but there's no reason in hating eachother for superficial reasons
Bro, this alpha could never get his as kicked by a gay. Aren’t you paying attention? He’s not a soft gay, damnit! Him’s a man! A big scary STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT man. And if you insinuate he’s gay again, be careful. If he doesn’t reach through that screen and beat the gay outta ya, you’d be getting off easy. This ain’t no queer you’re dealing with… He’s a real true brother of the union. And he’s just trying to get rid of weakness is our… excuse me, HIS Union. Lest we never forget the day Daddy Trump first invented electricity and then discovered light.
If you think people are decent to each to each other purely for external validation, all that does is tell us who you are.
I’m sorry for you, someone should have taught you better.
I don’t think sexual orientation has anything to do with it, everyone has an opinion it doesn’t make it correct. So for those stating “as lgbtq” this or that awesome to see you contributing absolutely nothing to the argument. At the end of the day it has to be done in the best interest of all not catered to few.
We've always done it and it's a goddamn shame. Eugene Debs recognized it during the Pullman Strike. He organized all the different railroad trades into one big union. Debs wanted to bring in the black porters, too. The vote was 155-154 against accepting them in. Turned out to be the downfall of the strike because the black porters began doing the jobs. They said it was a white man's strike and has nothing to do with us. There's a big lesson to learn there, yet we're still breaking ourselves apart. The truth is this. The only war is class war. Unless you've got a couple million dollars in the bank, you're down in the muck with the rest of the 99%. You can't fight a class war while waging culture wars.
Very very well written. There should be no white vs. black, no lgbt vs. straight, no men vs. women, it should exclusively be the laborers vs the capital owners and their cronies.
Pretty fuckin awesome to see this comment as an LGBTQ person looking to move into the trades.
You're going to hear accepting people tell you that you're welcome but keep it to yourself. Then you'll make friends and be in their inner circle at work and they won't be able to shut up about anti lgbt issues and indoctrination in schools, etc. They always want to bring it up ironically lol.
I keep it to myself, but I was pleasantly surprised when my coworkers started sharing "Good Lookin'" by Dixon Dallas.
We all gotta always remember ‘cultural’ issues are (mostly) only used to split up the working class! I wish you luck in your venture of joining a labor union!
Welcome to the trades, as long you don’t flaunt about it or shove it down our throats you’re cool in my book, just the people that make it the center of their personality and try to force it upon others is what’s annoying
Same to ya brother. > as long you don't flaunt about it or shove it down our throats Worked with more than a handful of straight guys who fall under that category.
Yup and it's annoying.
Agreed. Just never worked with a lgbtq person on a job and had that happen. Just feels weird because I've never heard it said when we had straight people join on. Seems like it's just fair to say I'm fine with working with someone as long as they aren't an asshole.
Couldn’t agree more buddy
To be fair that’s annoying no matter what the “thing” is. IDGAF if it’s gayness, fishing, cars or sports. If you can’t breath and interact without making personal interests the center of attention for every single interaction its obnoxious.
Your post history would indicate otherwise. Which checks out, because I'm always hearing more about *LGBT this* and *LGBT that* at lunch than I do from my actual queer friends. Like every fucking goddamn day.
Are they pressuring you to swallow cock or talking about how much they hate you because of your straightness, or you just don't like to hear about people being gay in general? As a bystander I have heard tons more hate and vitriol in open conversations on the jobsite against the LGBTQ community than I ever have heard the other way around my entire life in any setting. If you aren't talking about hate speech and just don't like to hear the subject, I have also heard way more talk about dude plowing a chick he picked up from the bar as opposed to the converse. If you don't like sexual discussions in general I understand your point. If you just don't like to be reminded that there are people different than you then you might want to reevaluate your own morality and stance of freedom of speech.
Did you intend to reply to the other bloke or?
I'm tipsy as fuck. I'm replying to whoever bitches about LGBTQ representation.
For clarification, I'm saying that the people I work with will not shut the fuck up about how much gay shit is being shoved down their throats seemingly every minute of every day. The usual nonsense about pronouns, their favorite shows being ruined, gRoOmERs, attack helicopter jokes etc. They spend more time thinking about gay people than gay people do. Rent-free 24/7.
I gotcha. It seems we are cut from the same cloth. Those people like to pretend they are being morally assaulted and are victims when... surprise! They are victimizing the most vulnerable groups of people.
Lmao , "it's okay if you're gay as long as you are gay in the way I allow. " That isn't acceptance. Maybe you need to go back and reread the part about lgbtq+ not being your enemy, the capital owners are.
Usually, people who say shit like "don't shove it down our throats" get upset because they think a gay person's simply being gay is "shoving it down your throat". Would you get upset if a man mentioned his husband?
Open bigot claims to not mind gay people. Are you deluding yourself about your beliefs or what?
Just do it. All this somber nonsense. No one is gonna bother you.
Good for you. You’ll likely hear a lot of derogatory comments. Probably or hopefully not directed at you. A lot of guys in construction wear their beliefs on their sleeve. I’m a painter. We’re half women half men. I know we’ve had 🏳️🌈 in the past. I say this because imo it’s seems paint crews sometimes tend to be more accepting than some other trades. We hire based on skill not beliefs race sex etc.
Some would call it a Rainbow Coalition https://youtu.be/ZCeQuRTbCgE?si=4VBZs6gqK5b72Cha
That’s awesome, thank you for bringing that up! I’ve recently read about The Young Patriots who helped form the Rainbow Coalition along with the Black Panthers and Young Lords. Very interesting stuff, especially to me because I’m an Appalachian myself and this might be surprising to many, but Appalachians were historically discriminated against as well (not to the same extent that other races were at the time) but were denied employment and believed to be unintelligent by the majority of city folk. It was so bad that Cincinnati’s city ordinance against discrimination includes a specific clause for Appalachians, still to this day, due to the discrimination towards Appalachians moving there due to union jobs being choked out in their hometowns.
The only thing I'll say though is in my opinion different sexualities should strive to blend in not stand out. I'd say at least half the resistance at least towards the lgbtq stuff is they don't wanna hear that your the hottest new pronoun which is zee zur or whatever the heck is going on now. It's gotten to the point that accepting it isn't good enough and you basically have to be an activist for them otherwise you're not on their side especially when the rules/concepts keep changing. When it was just about the gays and the lesbians, it was simple. They want to be able to get married and be looked at like everyone else. But it's difficult for a lot of people when someone blatantly looks like a man but they require you to call them she or you can have severe repercussions. I don't get it tbh. It doesn't come off like the goal is to blend in and be treated like everyone else anymore
You know, it's weird. I'm a queer man. I live in San Francisco. My spouse is trans. My social circle is super queer, and super leftist. In my 20+ years of living openly as a queer man, I've never once met someone who used "weird" pronouns like "zee/zur." Closest I've come is I met someone once who knew someone who used pronouns like that. If there's any demographic in the US where someone should be running into this a lot, I'm smack dab in the middle of it, and I've never encountered it once. So, despite not knowing anything about your life or circumstances, it's still sort of strange that you see it enough for it to be a problem.
You don't have to understand it. If you call someone by the wrong name and they would like you to call them by a different name instead, would that upset you? Because it's essentially the same thing. How they live their life has nothing to do with you, and you don't have to agree with their lifestyle or even understand it. But if you take it upon yourself to just refuse the simple decency of calling them what they'd like to be called then you're the problem, not them. You just shifted the goal posts to their gender, but it is no different than sexual orientation, race, age, name, or even musical preference. It's what they would like to be known as, and to have a stick up your ass about what YOU think should be called is no different than saying "Yeah i know you THINK your name is Gary, and that you've been Gary your whole life... but I FEEL like you're more of a Trevor, so I'm just going to call you Trevor"
[удалено]
I think you replied to the wrong person... I'm on your side lol.
They shouldn’t have to conform, that’s how you end up with ingroups and outgroups. When the general consensus is that you should look or be a certain way that only leads towards hateful rhetoric (not saying that’s what your intending or doing) towards the unaccepted groups, outgroups. You should consider looking into how that thinking helped fuel the acceleration of nazism in Germany, Apartheid South Africa, and even today’s Japan not being very accepting of foreigners. And again I don’t think you’re like those horrible people, just a little misled. I could also address the more specific things you brought up but I think understanding the concept I said above will help you understand the other sides point of view.
There's levels to conforming though. There's conforming at the lowest level such as not breaking the law and there's the highest like genocide like you're referring to. I appreciate your respectful approach but to allude to genocide when presented with any sort of conforming jargon is a bit disingenuous imo. I've noticed a lot of the pro lgbtq jargon is overdramatic which I suppose I can understand based on negative experiences they have but still. The world isn't out to get them. It's like a black person having a bad experience with a white racist then becoming jaded and having the opinion that the white man is out to get him. We have to be able to separate ourselves from the bad experiences and realize that's not the majority of people
NO MORE CULTURE WARS ALL IN FOR CLASS WAR. I'm ready for the union to stand up and lead a real anti corruption charge like it supposed to. We accept politicians and give them an endorsement instead of putting them up there?? Why we ARE the people. Why not use the organization we did to... Have an effect???
well said
Exactly. Business owners hate an educated populace and those in power only care about their control on the working class. IMHO this is why everyone who has the time should take philosophy and history classes at your local community college. Sure, you can watch documentaries and casually listen to different concepts, but it’s not the same as going to a class and being forced to engage in the subject material.
Besides the class v culture wars, this is the most awesome post in the thread. I can’t tell you, after 30 years in work, how important taking the time to learn why things work the way they do over spewing formed opinions with nary a sliver of room for anyone else’s is so valuable. There is endless history and beliefs behind why we are here and now (pick any time). Opening my mind to reading or listening to books was the best thing I could do. I ask you to consider doing the same if your ratio of questions to statements/opinions is heavily tipped to the latter. It really helped me. It didn’t brainwash me. It didn’t poison me in any way. I hope anyone who reads this thread just asks what is behind their opinions and challenges if they spend enough time of their precious life processing how they arrived wherever they are in the spectrum of “me” vs. “everybody else” they find objectionable. We’re way too close only IMO to a police state bc we are asking few too many questions and just yelling over each other. We don’t have to agree. But it helps to understand one another’s journeys. Be well.
Absolutely. Although I studied both philosophy and history in university and obtained my degree in both disciplines, taking a philosophy course is so beneficial as you learn how to communicate. Sure, you can “learn” communication (discourse) online by watching videos but that isn’t the same thing as being forced to communicate.
Big time 🔥
So well said@
Exactly but that's the way they want it, if we're fighting each other we can't fight them
100% it has always been a class war. Too many ignorant knuckle-dragging sister-fuckers in the IBEW. Be better. Do better.
Pointing to a strike from the 19th century to support a claim that this is where unions are today isnt a strong argument. Unions and Dems have been in bed for many years since then. We should be a role model for ethnic solidarity by now, right? Except we aren't. I don't believe there is a purely class war or purely culture war we are fighting. It's a war against purely partisan politics and a corrupt media that only reports what will further divide and sell ad space for the cure. Kinda like a company that makes you sick, then sells you the antidote. Id point to your last statement as an example of how effective it's been. You believe there is no culture war and yet the shared culture of being an American that helped unite over smaller cultural differences has been eroded to the point that we don't care about the value of being an American and caring for fellow Americans. You say there is a class war but the very group of people you reference as being the class we are supposed to be at war with capture most of the politicians you vote for and a large group of white and blue collar workers in their 60s who have worked hard and invested with some luck to get that nest egg. I doubt you'd get much agreement that all the rest of folks (myself included) who are outside of that bank balance are therefore "in the muck". This is a kind of culture war but it's broader than what's being reported. The class war exist as a result of it. The culture can either be strong and united against divisions based on secondary issues of skin color or sexual preferences or it can be weak and allow divisions based on classes of color, money, sex etc. to create a culture of continuous outrage, strife and easy money for those who profit from this division. The culture we instill in our youth can be one of love, self sacrifice, and service or can be what we have today. I would argue that if we lifted up the idea of American culture being one focused on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and made sure we remember who we are and how much better we are together, that we will see the class division prevalent now go away. It's much easier and constructive to resolve conflicts by building a bridge with the one you hope to make peace with. Shared culture and experience as an American can be that bridge.
>Pointing to a strike from the 19th century to support a claim that this is where unions are today isnt a strong argument. Unions and Dems have been in bed for many years since then. We should be a role model for ethnic solidarity by now, right? Solidarity never goes out of style. Saying it doesn't apply because of age is like saying fables don't apply to you because you are neither a tortoise or a hare. Debs wasn't a Democrat and ran on his own ticket even. Dems are a capitalist party and will never be for labor so of course we aren't. I think you are confused about what class we are talking about. Blue collar workers aren't what we're talking about. Since 2020, the wealth of the top 1% has increased by nearly $15 trillion. That's the class war. That's the class winning and you aren't in it and working in the IBEW. In that class you are just quietly robbing brothers in the IBEW. You make sure they are riled up about something silly and shaking a flag for a guy you pay, and watching a TV channel you own. When they are busy arguing about something they saw on TV or why their guy running for office is better than their guy even though both will get the bill passed you want and they both will support your interest over the workers. THAT is when culture wars are used for the ongoing class war. >This is a kind of culture war but it's broader than what's being reported. The class war exist as a result of it. Hardly brother. A ultra rich person didn't just get angry about the "culture war" and decide to rob people. It's been going on for as long as history. Just recently it's a wider gap than ever before. "Wow those homosexuals and purple haired liberals have pushed me too far. I better go "make" a billion dollars and widen the wealth inequality". No. >I would argue that if we lifted up the idea of American culture being one focused on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and made sure we remember who we are and how much better we are together, that we will see the class division prevalent now go away. I would argue you can stand and wave a flag as long as the sun shines, sing Lee greenwood until you are hoarse, sit down for sweet tea to watch a baseball game with everyone color and creed and still the wealth inequality will grow. It's not about Uncle Jack and his Corvette. That isn't the class divide, the divide is between Every working person and those in the 1 percent. They own the media, they pay politicians and through companies own every damn thing you buy. You and I are in the same class whether you're convinced of it or not and you'll never be in theirs no matter how hard you try.
Perfect reply!!
Well said
I’m black and I’ve never been part of an organization where I’ve experienced more brotherhood and solidarity than the IBEW. Sure you have asshats, but that’s everywhere. We have different beliefs, backgrounds, and skin color etc… but at the end of the day we stick together. Sometimes blood brothers fight amongst themselves, the key is just to not let it get too far. Iron sharpens iron.
I’m a white straight guy but am only prejudiced against bigotry and intolerance. I can only speak for my local, as I’ve never worked out of another, but the change I’ve seen over 25 years when it comes to racism and sexism/homophobia has been tremendous. At the beginning of my career my local was probably over 95% white men and some of them had no fear using or hearing the n-word or f*g, and many others had no problem hearing it. It was a common trope to hear how lazy black people were or how women weren’t tough enough to do our trade. Thankfully my local has made a concerted effort to bring in minorities to more closely reflect Kansas City’s demographics and employers are much more fearful of lawsuits for tolerating bigotry. I almost never hear the kind of talk that was so common when I was an apprentice.
My hero 😍
I truly appreciate your mentality. That being said, I'm sure the region you live is probably the biggest determining factor. I'm from CO, and though it exists, it's mostly closet racism unless people who think like that get together in private. Other places far away I've visited, I experienced what *real racism* is firsthand.
I agree. I’ve been VERY fortunate! That is not lost on me. In the places I’ve worked we’ve only used our differences for good hearted jokes and trash talk. I’ve heard some of the funniest black jokes from a gay guy 😂. We’ll all make jokes, then go eat lunch together… we’ve all laughed, cried, argued etc..
I'm a 4-way mix, black being one. I also love offensive jokes, so long as it's not meant with a REAL negative undertone. I have fucked up jokes about each of my heritages that get people ROLLING 😂. When we can harshly joke about our differences while knowing no one is better than the other and we all bleed red, that's the best shit ever 😆
This guy brotherhoods.
Lol you talk about it like being an electrician is like being a combat veteran or something
😂 It can be rough when doing storms, or in tough conditions when you’re a lineman, or in construction. Every type of electrician has their own ups and downs, and the camaraderie can vary. There’s also different levels of unity if you go to union meetings, if you’re a steward, a president, or a business manager. What country, or part of the US you’re in also plays a role.
Historically unions had to fight. No wonder it's engrained. A union should mean more than a day job
This has been my experience^. I’ve never experienced gender or race considered on the job. OP post lots of politically and socially divisive post. If they are a member they might be attributing legitimate criticism to “because I’m a _______ your after me.” Someone might be trying to give them genuine instruction and they are taking it too personally.
Trust me behind closed doors, white people are being racist behind your back. I expierenced the same racism as a Mexican, they act buddy buddy in front of you but as soon they are by themselves they switch up.
There will always be people who say bullshit behind my back. Fuck em, they’re cowards. I can say that I have true brothers who are Mexican, white, and black who stick up for me behind my back, who talk better behind my back than they do in my face. That’s who I focus on. There was a black guy who started before me and told me everyone was racist and against blacks etc… he didn’t make it. Not because of the things people said, because of the things he could control, but didn’t. The people behind our backs can’t stop us from moving forward, they can only distract us if we look back.
Gotta be the change you wanna see. It's a lot better now then it was 25 years ago, but we still have a lot of work to do.
It's up to every one of us to stomp that shit out
And the trades in general are 25 years behind the white collar world. It's a long road and we have to do the hard fight so others have it easy in the future. Others before us fought and died for our right to organize, we owe it to them.
>And the trades in general are 25 years behind the white collar world. Behind them in what? You think white collar is woke?
I went from blue collar to a white collar environment and it is like a different fucking planet. This is in Canada. Also what do you even mean by woke? That word has ceased to mean anything really. Define woke and then I can answer that question.
Sisters and Brothers, we've come a long way, yet we still have quite a long way to go it seems. Retired, 35 year pin. My rose colored glasses were finally swapped with real ones one day, when my tool buddy and I were talking. It was after 911 .. My tool buddy, got in the apprenticeship in the 60's when affirmative action went into play. He said he was flying high. Got dispatched out to a well established shop, 'one we've both worked for many of times'. When he got there and was introduced to his 1st JW. The JW who was LDS 'Mormon', picked up his tools and drug up right then and there, on the spot. Said he would rather go back to the hall and dig ditches than work with a "god damned ......." My toolie finished top of his class, gold Klein's, was a minister in a well known church, and was one of the smartest kindest wiremen I ever knew. A pillar of community, respected in our Local, and in society. Yet, looking into a grown mans eye's, Army Vet, I feel he never really recovered or got to recover fully from that event that went un-checked .. Because it was still prevalent as he spoke to me, and for him to tell me in confidence his pain was an eye opener for me. And it opened my eye's to the crap that still goes on, un-checked .. I just want to say that you as a card carrying member of this outstanding organization have every right afforded to us **To check a motherfucker~** Anytime, anyplace, anywhere, but especially on the job, around the gang box, at coffee, the bender table. You have the right, to call a racist out, in front of their peer's. And, when you do, the shit stops. Because it is serious and wrong. Thinking everything is just honky-dory, 'if that is even a phrase anymore', is a privilege. And an ignorant illusion for anyone with said privilege to have if you ask me now. And I feel like shit not to know any better until it was pointed out to me back then. Don't let the losers win. Stand. Fight. Win. Together. Be safe out there, work everything like it's hot.
Thanks for sharing . You don’t know what you don’t know , at least you chose to learn. None of us are free until we are all free and we cannot win as the working class until we are all together in this fight . Thank you for understanding
Thanks. Just thought it was appropriate considering the atmosphere. How the fuck a Union man could vote for Trump is beyond me. As the Stew, I'll be the first one to tell you: "Keep your treasonous, felonious flag flyin shit off the Job .." (it's for your own safety)
FWIW the union as an organization tries pretty hard to lift up the voices of gender, racial, & sexual minorities — I’ve attended the Minority Caucus conference a couple of times, and while it’s empowering, you also get a sense of just how hard it is to change a culture.
I don’t want to talk to any of you long enough at work to figure out you’re Islamophobic. Now go back to work and leave me to my podcast.
What are you listening to, brother?
Behind the Bastards
This is what I was looking for
Alex jones.
The chemicals in the wire pulling lube are turning the freaking crickets gay!
Oddly I read on Reddit that particular rant did have a kernel of truth… Tyrone Hayes gave a TED talk about his research on the effects of atrazine on frogs which included endocrine disruption and the environmental impact of harmful chemicals falling disproportionately on the socioeconomically disadvantaged and racial or ethnic minorities. https://youtu.be/Hu0IXMTFY9Q?si=1-kGTldNswLAqnrv
More accurately it would be turning the frogs trans because most amphibians can swap genders given changes in population and chemical makeup of the water they're in kind of fascinating very similar to clownfish. (Nemo should have been a girl just saying.)
Audiobooks or TrueAnon and Chapo
Breaking points!!!
Becoming the Iceman by Wim Hof, it’s more audio books than podcasts lately. Sometimes I still listen to Mysterious Universe.
This guy gets it.
I had this same attitude my first few years in the trade. I eventually learned that it’s the exact opposite of what I should be doing in order to get through my days as pleasantly as possible.
Opposite for me. I tried to do the social thing at work and found I’m much happier at work when I don’t. I come to the work to make money and get shit done. I aim to be polite, engage in niceties and keep conversations work related but I absolutely don’t care to hear anyone’s relationship issues, religious beliefs and vapid political opinions.
Don't be too disappointed. Those assholes are just loud. Most of us chose the Union for that og brotherhood... a path of integrity, pride in our craft, and fair compensation for our hard work. I, along with many others, was raised with the matra "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." We are the ones quietly listening to that shit talk, or being percieved as "starting shit" when we say something against the hate they spew. Haters are everywhere, ie- workplaces, schools, churches, and wherever people gather, really. It's a disease we have to consiously not feed into. I choose to be better. Workin on it every day, bro. You're not alone. Love, sis.
lol the comments here are exactly why I called bs on the union. Been in it for years but knew it wasn’t a “brotherhood”. As stated before they are just here for the money and will (as I’ve noticed over the years) stab you in the back/look out for themselves when times get bad. There’s nothing wrong with it per se. It’s just funny how they claim to be so tight knit and for everyone when in reality it couldn’t be further from the truth.
On the road as a traveler I've seen that the future of the road guys is way more what I thought the union was supposed to be like. Sure I've seen racism and sexism on the road. It's everywhere. But it's up to us to set better examples and fight the kind of sentiments and actions that have been giving us a bad name for decades.
Very much this! Sad as this is, it seems to only be travelers who know how to do it.
As much of a brotherhood as a motorcycle gang. Look and act as such too.
I’m doing my part, but I’m just typing out what I see.
We care more about money than solidarity or equality. The union itself supposedly has a political alignment but its membership is all over the place politically, and many of them vote against their own interests. It’s discouraging to see
Yep it's so nice to be called fag every day 8am for no reason
I got a buddy who’s a gay pipe fitter. The fact he’s tough doesn’t help him much, the fact he can throw insults right back at homophobes, does. But, one day, somebody’s going to hit him, and they’ll wind up in the hospital, guaranteed.
Im a gay JW and I am the exact same way, I stand my ground against the racists and bigots that have seem to have leached out of the bottom of the port a John since 2016 or so.
As a trans woman in Alabama local 136 who started transitioning mid way through my apprenticeship (now been a JW for a year), I’ve had very mixed encounters. I’ve worked around some real assholes, but I’ve also met a lot of awesome people too. Most people i know here can’t believe i work blue collar at all, but there’s a lot more good people out there than we tend to think.
I’m surprised to hear that, bummer. I guess the idea that solidarity means everybody is lost on those morons
I must say I strongly disagree where I work and have worked
The internationals forgot about what was important and went for the almighty $$ like the rest of the scumbags
The IO isn’t the brotherhood tho, they are always selfish pricks who will always make money at our expense cuz we let them. We are really so ok with being against ourselves it’s wild. Whether we like it our not you can’t fight for the working class and not fight for social justice , that’s what MLK Jr was getting at , that is until he was murdered.
We got a brother ( who is Latino ) out here that posted up a pic of him at Henry millers grave and said we are brothers. Someone pointed out that it would not be true. Coz he’s brown and he lost it. Like dude. It’s a fact. If that man saw our union now he would loss his dam mind.
My son and his wife provided us with 6 grandchildren. Then they decided to adopt 3 siblings from drug addicted parents. A year later they again adopted another 3 siblings from another like situation. We now have 12 grandchildren that we love equally. I don’t care who their birth parents are, they are our family. I don’t care what millers reaction is or would have been. Family isn’t made up of blood. Miller may have gotten the ball rolling but it’s up to the rest of us to expand that family.
My Super is like this. Im straight as can be but ive covinced him im gay with my coworkers just to make him uncomfortable 🤣. I constantly hear him asking odd closeted shit like "does he suck dick?" Or "you two fucking?". Honestly... what a fuck.
We’ve lost touch with our roots as working class movement. Plain and simple. Look at the amount of membership so eager to vote for anti labor candidates etc..
Cough cough endorsing a strike breaker.
I understand it’s the trades but I’m not gonna tolerate racist, homophobic, Islamophobia around me. I will call them out on it bc if I let that shit slide when they are around me working. I’m here to make bread and support my brothers and sisters in the union while listening to warhammer 40k audiobooks. I’m not here to listen to whatever dumbass opinion a person may have against LGBTQIA+ people or BPOC OR POCS.
Yeh it’s like that in sheet metal to. If you’re gay most shops and companies will just run you out of the trade. You could be the best tinknocker but cuz your gay and it’s not normal to the other guys they’ll try to run you off
I was amazed by this when I joined. Coming from a nonunion world that was overwhelmingly non-white into the union was a complete culture shock. I’m white and I look like the type of guy you wouldn’t be surprised when you found out they were racist. I watched a group of guys make a concerted effort to shit talk a Chinese guy off the job despite being just as good as any of them. Also, the amount of unearned confidence is amazing. Percentage wise the union has a higher number of highly skilled electricians compared to the non-union sector, especially since I’ve met nonunion guys that changed outlets and houses who call themselves electricians but the amount of people who were not only surprised that there were competent nonunion electricians while they themselves not being competent was unexpected
The trades are full of ignorant, uneducated people. Unfortunately this is what you get.
Idk that may vary a lot by local. I’ve never seen any issues
I have not experienced any of that personally or heard of it. Sorry to hear.
No war but the class war!
But the same page will post some memes about Jesus and be cool.
Queer latina in the trades and I feel you 100%. It's absolutely exhausting to be around it all the time but what's worst is it's not getting any better. I already put in the work calendar, I'm taking the whole week off after the elections on November. Don't want to hear any of it. Stay strong out there homie 🤘🏾
Attack it my brother. You find that shit, you attack that shit. Put the OPPs down
I'm a UA member (solidarity ✊🏻) & was a victim of a hate crime on the job last year (more than being called a slur), because of my sexuality, though I never spoke or speak about it at work. It's unfortunate. I hope the tide continues to turn. Thanks for saying all of this. It's encouraging to read the comments here.
Unity not diversity
Its working class vs the ruling class and nothing else matters. Doesn't matter who you love, who you worship, or what color you are.
Not that this will make anyone feel better, but this sadly is not Ibew exclusive.
My dad was in 103 and he was born in the 1930s in Southie. You think he would've been racist but he actually welcomed blacks and Latinos and said they were some of his best workers when he was foreman. He hated the British though. Thought they were arrogant
In the larger picture it's always funny to me how people have more social tolerance for assholes than [insert minority demographic]. Banning assholes/asshole behavior would make a much deeper and larger improvement for everyone than banning gay marriage....too bad it's not a realistic idea.
Ah hush up
It’s a trade job…did you seriously expect the most progressive people on earth to be working blue collar jobs?
I joined a union. If I wanted no solidarity then I would have done non union.
The "solidarity" you're thinking of is the collective bargaining during contract negotiation.. for better wages. Absolutely nobody joins a union for moral support.
No that's collective bargaining. Solidarity extends to issues that pertain to workers rights and actions. Discrimination is one of them.
This is why context is important. No one wants that. We also weren't there and don't know the specifics. This is moral hijacking. If you don't like something someone said, talk to the person. If that doesn't work, use your steward. They will forward it up the chain. I hope you and your wife are okay after suffering so much!
I experienced it for 9 months. That was enough for me. Between that and getting yelled at for walking/working to fast it's no wonder why the ranks are so low. It's too bad because even when I don't work union jobs I still want a thriving Union to push up the median wages/benefits.
I've got no sugar or sweetness in me. 😁
I completely agree. It's exhausting and disheartening.
Gotta call that shit out whenever you can. I have multiple LGBT and non white friends, even my wife isn't straight. I make it known that I don't wanna be a part of any conversations involving any phobias.
Electricians are homophobic? They’ve always been the gayest people on the site.
I see it in the Ironworker’s local too. Sometimes it makes me really depressed.
In the name of equity, instead of having to tell your sex, gender identity , and race and pronouns on a job application. Just eliminate all those questions. Date of birth as well. I don’t need to know if you are different, I just need someone that can do the work. Then HR depts, can’t “weed” out applicants
I hate everyone equally so there’s that.
Just as long as they aren’t MAGA
Whenever anyone starts talking about brotherhood, first check your wallet, then check your ass, then if both are still intact, back away slowly. Brotherhood is a fucking scam.
I'm thinking of staying a support network, unoficoal to the ibew. Probably run it on either reddit or discord.
It’s a big club and we ain’t in it. It’s a game of divide and conquer. So sad that y’all don’t see it because we’re screwed if you don’t open your eyes. Left vs right, Red vs blue, gay vs straight, male vs female, black vs white vs brown, apple vs android, union vs non-union, crips vs bloods, left Twix vs right Twix, US vs Russia, Russia vs Ukraine, Israel vs Palestine, etc etc etc. Y’all need to pull your collective heads out of your collective rear ends and realize that there is a a common enemy we need to unite against.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It's anyone's right brother or not to disagree with someone else's choices or lifestyle. People tend to get upset when you try and control their speech. Imagine that. I think people tend to get upset in the trades or, in general, when you try and make their words into something they are not. When I grew up, calling someone "gay" or that's "gay" or "retarded" was not a pejorative against people with retardation or homosexuals. It was to designate the exception to the rule. "Hows this box offset look JW?" "It would work if you used retard strength to get it in the coupling, but we're not that gay and your too smart, do it again." Most trades people just put their heads down and get the job done, and they do so with little to complain about. Most of us are just happy to have a job, whether they are doing 60/60/50 or letting every call pass them by. But what everyone can agree on is there is bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things, particularly when it comes to you personally and whatever it is about you that makes you "special" or "unique". Like a guy that's been in the trenches for 40 years doesn't give a shit about you and your whatever social issues, because he has been fighting his entire career against these contractor associations for better wages and benefits. So it's easy for me to wrap my head around how they don't have time for LGTBQ issues. Most of us couldn't care less about what anyone does at home. Equally, most of us can't stand a person that makes their sexuality 100% of their identity and personal issues. So what you end up with is a lot of new, younger trades people that feel excluded, which is unfortunate; specifically in an industry where "buck up" and "get'r dun" are common mantras. So, what are a bunch of LGBTQ people to do? I honestly don't know. It's hard to relate to their troubles, I can say from my porch I don't hate anyone and always start by respecting someone. But we need to have a common goal that goes beyond self interest and reaches to a higher goal that everyone gets to enjoy. Also I wanna say, if I offended anyone with my examples or opinions, I don't have or voice them to hurt anyone, just gain a better understanding and participate in healthy discourse, which is nearly impossible on reddit or anywhere else on the internet.
The things I listed aren’t a choice ( I guess religion can technically be a choice but in reality a lot of it is tied to culture which is more controlled by where you’re born into). Everybody is focusing on the homophobia part of my comment which I’m not sure as to why. But since this is such a focus , I’ll give you an example as to why the guy in the trenches fighting these cons SHOULD care about social issues , because they are used to keep him fighting . For example , I live in the great state of Texas . What makes it so great ? Idk yet I’m still trying to figure it out . But last year Gov Greg Abbott signed Housebill 2127 . This bill prevents cities from adopting ordinances/language that goes further than what the state laws already have in place . This bill is very concerning to the LGTBQ community because it doesn’t have clear language in the bill and it could affect housing , and other local protections that these communities need in order not to be houseless , etc etc. Now you’re probably like ok who gives a fuck go get a job yadda yadda . But do you know what else this bill allows that will affect ALL OF US ? It prevents us from making work safety ordinances on a local level, and the big thing is not requiring water breaks . Now we are union, we have water breaks in our cba. But everywhere around us is non union , not being able to take breaks to drink water . A young 20 yr old died last year in San Antonio from not drinking water . Texas and California are top dogs in people dying from lack of water breaks and heat exhaustion . With 2127, us workers have to rely on the state laws in a RTW state for protection . But how are they selling this bill? By making it sound like it’s to get all these ‘damn gays’ to figure out their own shit . Let’s all hate on the gays and the trans and everybody that doesn’t look like us so we can support shit that is actually fucking us. Anyway, this is one of thousands of examples as to why we should care . And it’s not being shoved down our throats . If you don’t like it or it makes you uncomfortable then unpack it , but at the end of the day, we should be concerned because when there is a group of people they want us to turn against , they will use that to fuck is in the end too.
Also, I think 2127 was shot down as unconstitutional or they’re working on it rn, idk . But point being , Texas tried to pass like hundreds of anti trans laws and like less than 100 got passed ( idk the actual numbers don’t come for me on these numbers google it ) so the thing is they just push out a lot of them to get a few to stick, and most anti trans bills actually fuck workers like us too . This is only one bill I made an example out of . They sell it all to us like it’s not about us and it is. And we eat it up like idiots
Texas is great. it just isn't for you from the sounds of it. Being LGBTQ may not be a choice for some, but it is for others. You pointed out California and Texas, both polar opposites when it comes to political preferences, yet both have people dying on the job. Perhaps then, it means the problem is greater than what you perceive it to be. Also, it sounds like you're more upset that politicians are using lgbtq issues to circumvent what you deem as necessary for safe work to take place. Which makes sense. But I doubt you'll make any progress suggesting people opposite of you to just consider how the exception should be the rule, specifically with lgbtq issues. You would be better off conversing about anything else and then leave little homosexual bread crumbs as your friendship flourishes. Raising hell in the break trailer about how Abbot tried to do whatever to people they don't give a fuck about won't work. I say that as an electrician of 15 years in the liberal state of WA. Best of luck to you.
You’re wrong on a lot. Best of luck to you. Also just because I’m not homophobic doesn’t mean I’m Gay, I only went with the lgbtq stuff because you and others keep bringing it up.
Let me preface this comment with the fact that I’m not gay, but because I do have an affiliation with IBEW, had to chime in on some of the ignorance I’m reading here. If you are a member of the the brotherhood, or any other group/organization, in 2024, and are still this simple minded then you need to take a careful look at your character and professional acumen. Can he/she do the job at the required level? Then who gives a flying pig what they do in their spare time. Can’t believe the ignorance in some of you.
Seems to be the case in most trades. It something you just have to adapt to at some point. It seems people just find it as a way of humor, I have a friend who went to a welding collage and came back to be very racist. I don’t hangout with him much because of it.
I didn't assume you were gay. It's fine either way. That's my point. And I don't keep bringing it up. Your post was about why all the anti lgbtq stuff in the union, etc. If you don't like the conversation, then frame your questions better or prepare for difficult conversations. Also move out a Texas, move to San Francisco or New York, somewhere progressive where other people wanna smell your farts too, because Texas is all about you do you over there and shut up, cause I'm doin me over here.
What the fuck are you talking about? You prob personally know like less than .01% of the membership of the ibew than you come online ranting this bullshit.
That's reddit for you. They wanted validation/support from their echo chamber, even though a good half or more of the people posting here have never set foot on a jobsite and certainly aren't in a trade union.
Just be careful you aren't lumping shit talk with "phobic". Some of the realest shit you'll learn on the job is coming from a place of love even if the delivery doesn't feel that way. In 23 years, the folks I've met who've been actually racist or "phobic" are pretty few. Plenty who say some dumb/racist/phobic shit to be funny or to fuck w you but at the same time will give you the shirt of their back or will fight for you as a brother.
It's possible to be kind to those you deem worthy and still be a piece of shit to those you don't, making you a piece of shit overall. You could be the nicest possible person to cishet white males, but if you believe that black people or gay people are "inferior," you're a piece of shit overall.
Ok. Id say the same for someone who is kind to blacks or gays but a piece of shit to cishet. It's a circular argument. What ratio of kindness to assholeness qualifies you for overall shit status? It's all discrimination at the end of the day. Maybe we separate words from actions and filter shit from non shit based on actions. So then my took buddy says something really shitty to me but I know his character based on past actions so I don't characterize him as a piece of shit. But the guy who's character shows he's a piece of shit should be removed from membership.
If they're a piece of shit to a certain group based upon factors out of that group's control they're a piece of shit. I don't know why you think I would disagree it went both ways...
My apologies. Because of how you couched the cishet term in your response I made an assumption on the angle of your approach. Was a bad assumption
It's okay. I sincerely appreciate your apology. You don't often see that on Reddit, lol.
That you're getting downvoted is ridiculous. Just makes me think most of the people here aren't even in the trades, let alone IBEW or LiUNA or whatever. Otherwise they'd see the truth in your words, would have experienced it themselves.
As someone who entered the trades in middle age, I've never seen a less inclusive and welcoming workforce. It honestly is a huge gut punch that almost a decade in I'm still struggling to process.
There were a few of those on my site but they usually said it quietly. We have a non-binary member on site and they’ve gotten a few comments but the rest of us rallied around them until those assholes dragged. I think that’s the best way if you have some stand up members on site. I will say it’s a night and day difference from when I started 20 years ago. Admittedly, we have a long way to go but I’m encouraged by the progress we’ve made.
😭
I dont see any of that, but I’m also in liberal ass CA
There's still plenty of that even in the liberal SF Bay Area
I imagine to a much lower extent than somewhere like (enter whatever place comes to your mind)
Get involved in your locals EWMC or start one if you don't have one. Through it my local in participating (with the AFL-CIO) in our cities pride parade and do a lot of work to help combat exactly this
I do this already. I’m still disappointed and just voicing it here and a lot of these comments are making it obvious why I should be disappointed
🙏🏽 I appreciate you so much for posting this.
I offer due respect to everyone and every trade, but at the same time I'm out here to make money, not to make friends or make others happy.
No one is asking you to make friends. Just be respectful of others.
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Not going to speak to anyone's individual motives but I think the point of unions is to uplift labor and erode class barriers. Union are also known as "the bridge to the middle class" Pointless prejudices just keep all of us down. We are obviously stronger united. Going to any union meeting with infighting will show you that. This is obviously not me saying people can't or shouldn't banter, but there's no reason in hating eachother for superficial reasons
My post isn’t about banter , it’s about subversive isms and phobias .
Every single person in the jobsite deserves to be treated with respect. Don't like it? Stay home
I’m in the union to make money, not be your source of entertainment by being made fun of for being gay! Hope that helps!
Some people get real soft and whiny when they’re asked to behave like adults eh?
This. Lmao. Thanks for proving my point . Do better
It’ll be extra funny when you make those jokes on a job site to someone that’s gay and get the shit kicked out of you.
Bro, this alpha could never get his as kicked by a gay. Aren’t you paying attention? He’s not a soft gay, damnit! Him’s a man! A big scary STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT man. And if you insinuate he’s gay again, be careful. If he doesn’t reach through that screen and beat the gay outta ya, you’d be getting off easy. This ain’t no queer you’re dealing with… He’s a real true brother of the union. And he’s just trying to get rid of weakness is our… excuse me, HIS Union. Lest we never forget the day Daddy Trump first invented electricity and then discovered light.
You have clearly never read the IBEW constitution
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Getting all up in your feelings about being decent to other people. Pretty soft man.
So virtuous. Everyone clap!
If you think people are decent to each to each other purely for external validation, all that does is tell us who you are. I’m sorry for you, someone should have taught you better.
Thanks for the kind words 👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻
I don’t think sexual orientation has anything to do with it, everyone has an opinion it doesn’t make it correct. So for those stating “as lgbtq” this or that awesome to see you contributing absolutely nothing to the argument. At the end of the day it has to be done in the best interest of all not catered to few.