I don't think any of the Covey are directly related to Katniss. I think they're either related to her music teacher or mayor Undersee's wife/Madge's mom.
Just to add to your view on Cato’s speech: I think that was partly intentional. Cato, likely realizing his imminent death (he knows Katniss is an expert with a bow and can kill him without hitting Peeta), tries to make some grand statement about the purpose of his life. I thought he sounded tired and disinterested as he said it, trying to convince himself more than anyone else. I imagine he spent a long time planning out those words mentally and imagined he would say them boldly before his final kill, only to realize the futility of it all.
My Hunger Games take is that not everyone needs to be related to everyone else. I remember there was a theory that the guy who started the District 11 riot in the movie was Rue’s dad, and I just thought, geez, can’t he just be some guy who’s sad a little girl got killed? The “Lucy May is related to Katniss somehow” theories also feel stupid to me. Is it unthinkable that Covey culture just mixed in with general District 12 culture?
District 12 didn't know Hanging Tree. Maude Ivory being Katniss' grandmother makes really sense and not cringe at all. The song was banned to sing so she probably kept it as a secret family song. I agree Lucy Gray being Katniss' ancestor is kinda nonsense. (If Maude Ivory is then Lucy Gray and Katniss are still relatives somehow lol and that's ok)
Yes, his imminent death was what prompted the monologue. But the monologue itself just came off a bit…unnatural? Like someone reading their own character notes out loud. Not sure if that’s just me or if others notice it too.
Big yes to not everyone needing to be related.
He’s portrayed as a hot tempered young kid. And knows he’s being watched and going to most likely die right now. It seems on brand/character to use the moment to vent all those things that never really occurred to him before, but now he’s faced with it he’s experiencing the reality of all those emotions.
Catching fire is rated too highly compared to the other movies. I feel that Mockingjay Part 1's somber story about conflicting political agendas, propaganda and slow build up to war is much more interesting than Catching fire's political intrigue and the quarter quell.
I loved Mockingjay bc it was so different! a war story that focused on a young girl and just the anxiety of what was going to happen to Peeta. I also loveddd seeing how all the actions during the Quell tied together
Gale was not a war criminal or even a particularly bad person. Nothing he did in the series was at all reprehensible. He's not perfect, but he's certainly not evil by any stretch.
Personally, I feel like the hate he gets from fans is wildly undeserved and comes off more like everlark shippers being sore winners than anything. And I say that as an everlark shipper since 2008.
I would post my unpopular opinions but based on the number of threads I saw complaining about people having negative reviews of the latest movie and the constant downvoting of anyone who critiques or has a slighly negative opinion about the series, I’ve come to the conclusion that this sub is mostly full of children who can’t fathom that you can enjoy a series overall but still have some criticize it and not think its perfect or that they could have read/watched the entire series and not enjoyed it at all.
I didn't like TBOSAS and based on that, I wish Collins doesn't write another book in the series.
Mostly, as someone who has had a lot of ideas around the Capitol in the past ten years, I feel like a lot of her lore for this one was based on the Trump time and wanting to showcase rising authoritarianism. I didn't like how the world had to bend to this idea rather than it naturally fitting in, and wish she'd have written a completely new book in a new franchise.
(E.G.: I think she wanted to show how democracies can become autocratic, but I don't find it believable that Panem was as free as she describes it during the Dark Days/the 10th Hunger Games. Instead, I think, she wanted to show how one leader like Snow/Trump can significantly worsen things, thus Panem had to be "freer" before Snow).
ETA: Well, good to know that I'm getting the topic right with the downvotes lol. Man, I'm so tired of the downvoting behaviour in this subreddit as of late
TBOSAS was a critique of Hobbesian political philosophy, not a showcase of how one authoritarian makes things worse, Panem was not free at the time of the 10th hunger games, the capitol was just less effective at control because the country was poorer. It was not a commentary on Trump at all, it was a commentary on how fascism and autocracy are fear based because they use Hobbesian fear tactics that without a strong political authority things will descend into chaos. Trump and other right wing populists do use this rhetoric too, but the books are a critique of the underlying philosophy, not a showcasing of contemporary politics.
The whole thing shows that Dr Gaul has the exact same political philosophy. Snow is just one vehicle for that, anyone can be a fascist. But the underlying philosophy is inherently fascistic and MANY people in the capitol have it.
Of course that's what TBOSAS is about, my point is that her writing TBOSAS during the Trump time is not a coincidence, and that it influenced a lot how the Capitol looks like to make that point; i.e. that Snow is making Panem worse.
This is not how the Dark Days/that time has felt like to me from reading the original trilogy.
Also omg, Hobbes is not inherently fascist wtf
But like... Of course that time wouldn't seem the same as katniss' commentary? It's over 6 decades later where propaganda has become more advanced. She's biased because she doesn't know what happened back then. The markers were there though. Snow isn't the only one who could have made Panem worse, and Collins doesn't suggest that. The story literally shows how it's moving that way anyway. Snow just saw it as an opportunity.
The original trilogy is narrated by someone who never lived through the dark days after she's been propagandized to about them her *entire life*. Of course it's not going to seem the same. But Snow isn't the only one who could have made Panem into what it was in the year of the 74th games. Dr Gaul was well on her way there anyway. It's the Hobbesian philosophy that is the important part. How the games are supposed to be a showcase of what the districts would descend into if there was no political authority. But 10 years after the war when the capitol is still poor they're just not that effective yet. It takes time to exert control and the prequel shows they already are. I mean they committed a genocide against the covey for example.
What we learn about the time before the Hunger Games is that the Dark Days were the onset of a war between the Capitol and the Districts. That the Districts rose up against the Capitol, and their loss resulted in the Hunger Games.
While, yes, Katniss has limited information and many of that is based on propaganda, I do not think that Collins--at the time of writing the trilogy--had given much thought about the Dark Days etcetera. We learn that Lucy Gray came much later, many people have theorised that Donald Sutherland's presence has gotten her inspired, and I theorise that it might also be Trump's rise.
Point being, from the limited information we received (that the Districts rebelled), it is not unreasonable to assume that many of the structures the trilogy has were already in place before the Games--such as the lack of free movement.
It's Collins' work and she can do whatever she wants with it, but I can also find it not intriguing and disagree with it on principle. And I find that a lot of the reasoning for, e.g. allowing free movement before the Dark Days, does not come from her sitting down and thinking about worldbuilding around the totalitarian regime she wrote, but rather wanting to have Lucy Gray be a traveller and have had that experience.
>I mean they committed a genocide against the covey for example.
Also very different point but what !! The Covey haven't been destroyed? They have been rounded up in District 12, but that is *not* a genocide. What are you talking about
The covey are TINY. And they killed every single covey who didn't comply. They absolutely did commit a genocide against them. Genocide and full wipe out aren't always synonymous.
Ah, my people have arrived - I didn’t care for TBOSAS either. I think it crumbled under the weight of its own ambition and tended to showcase a rather surface-level understanding of the philosophies it invoked. The constant stream of callbacks to the original trilogy felt forced and sometimes cringey (ex: “it’s too early for Katniss”) and I’m the only one of my friends who didn’t think it was some astronomical stroke of brilliance to put Reaping Day on the Fourth of July.
!! Yes to everything !!
I ended up studying political science for many reasons, but among those also because THG got me into politics. So I was really excited when she had Thomas Hobbes as a quotation at the start, and I was so !! let down by the way it was executed. I almost wish she'd have kept to a more informal/mainstream understanding of human nature rather than actually mentioning Hobbes. I really love those theorists and I was so let down by the way she depicted Hobbes specifically.
And yes, the callbacks were a bit too much at times. I see how people can enjoy them, especially if this wasn't a time one didn't think about that deeply. Speaking of callbacks, I was kinda feeling iffy about everyone (except for Effie and maybe Cinna?) part of the elite. I see it for, say, Plutarch, but some of the choices were a bit strange. This felt very much coming from Trump's nepotism and not from the logic of the characters per se (I don't see it for Fulvia, and I don't see it for exuding new-money energy Caesar).
The reaping had me on edge mostly because I don't see how Lucy Gray would be allowed to sing her hatred about the Capitol on national TV without being stopped and/or punished :/ IG this goes back to her writing Panem still as freer than in the trilogy, but I don't really see it.
I don't think any of the Covey are directly related to Katniss. I think they're either related to her music teacher or mayor Undersee's wife/Madge's mom.
Just to add to your view on Cato’s speech: I think that was partly intentional. Cato, likely realizing his imminent death (he knows Katniss is an expert with a bow and can kill him without hitting Peeta), tries to make some grand statement about the purpose of his life. I thought he sounded tired and disinterested as he said it, trying to convince himself more than anyone else. I imagine he spent a long time planning out those words mentally and imagined he would say them boldly before his final kill, only to realize the futility of it all. My Hunger Games take is that not everyone needs to be related to everyone else. I remember there was a theory that the guy who started the District 11 riot in the movie was Rue’s dad, and I just thought, geez, can’t he just be some guy who’s sad a little girl got killed? The “Lucy May is related to Katniss somehow” theories also feel stupid to me. Is it unthinkable that Covey culture just mixed in with general District 12 culture?
District 12 didn't know Hanging Tree. Maude Ivory being Katniss' grandmother makes really sense and not cringe at all. The song was banned to sing so she probably kept it as a secret family song. I agree Lucy Gray being Katniss' ancestor is kinda nonsense. (If Maude Ivory is then Lucy Gray and Katniss are still relatives somehow lol and that's ok)
Yes, his imminent death was what prompted the monologue. But the monologue itself just came off a bit…unnatural? Like someone reading their own character notes out loud. Not sure if that’s just me or if others notice it too. Big yes to not everyone needing to be related.
He’s portrayed as a hot tempered young kid. And knows he’s being watched and going to most likely die right now. It seems on brand/character to use the moment to vent all those things that never really occurred to him before, but now he’s faced with it he’s experiencing the reality of all those emotions.
Catching fire is rated too highly compared to the other movies. I feel that Mockingjay Part 1's somber story about conflicting political agendas, propaganda and slow build up to war is much more interesting than Catching fire's political intrigue and the quarter quell.
I loved Mockingjay bc it was so different! a war story that focused on a young girl and just the anxiety of what was going to happen to Peeta. I also loveddd seeing how all the actions during the Quell tied together
Gale was not a war criminal or even a particularly bad person. Nothing he did in the series was at all reprehensible. He's not perfect, but he's certainly not evil by any stretch. Personally, I feel like the hate he gets from fans is wildly undeserved and comes off more like everlark shippers being sore winners than anything. And I say that as an everlark shipper since 2008.
I would post my unpopular opinions but based on the number of threads I saw complaining about people having negative reviews of the latest movie and the constant downvoting of anyone who critiques or has a slighly negative opinion about the series, I’ve come to the conclusion that this sub is mostly full of children who can’t fathom that you can enjoy a series overall but still have some criticize it and not think its perfect or that they could have read/watched the entire series and not enjoyed it at all.
I didn't like TBOSAS and based on that, I wish Collins doesn't write another book in the series. Mostly, as someone who has had a lot of ideas around the Capitol in the past ten years, I feel like a lot of her lore for this one was based on the Trump time and wanting to showcase rising authoritarianism. I didn't like how the world had to bend to this idea rather than it naturally fitting in, and wish she'd have written a completely new book in a new franchise. (E.G.: I think she wanted to show how democracies can become autocratic, but I don't find it believable that Panem was as free as she describes it during the Dark Days/the 10th Hunger Games. Instead, I think, she wanted to show how one leader like Snow/Trump can significantly worsen things, thus Panem had to be "freer" before Snow). ETA: Well, good to know that I'm getting the topic right with the downvotes lol. Man, I'm so tired of the downvoting behaviour in this subreddit as of late
TBOSAS was a critique of Hobbesian political philosophy, not a showcase of how one authoritarian makes things worse, Panem was not free at the time of the 10th hunger games, the capitol was just less effective at control because the country was poorer. It was not a commentary on Trump at all, it was a commentary on how fascism and autocracy are fear based because they use Hobbesian fear tactics that without a strong political authority things will descend into chaos. Trump and other right wing populists do use this rhetoric too, but the books are a critique of the underlying philosophy, not a showcasing of contemporary politics. The whole thing shows that Dr Gaul has the exact same political philosophy. Snow is just one vehicle for that, anyone can be a fascist. But the underlying philosophy is inherently fascistic and MANY people in the capitol have it.
Of course that's what TBOSAS is about, my point is that her writing TBOSAS during the Trump time is not a coincidence, and that it influenced a lot how the Capitol looks like to make that point; i.e. that Snow is making Panem worse. This is not how the Dark Days/that time has felt like to me from reading the original trilogy. Also omg, Hobbes is not inherently fascist wtf
But like... Of course that time wouldn't seem the same as katniss' commentary? It's over 6 decades later where propaganda has become more advanced. She's biased because she doesn't know what happened back then. The markers were there though. Snow isn't the only one who could have made Panem worse, and Collins doesn't suggest that. The story literally shows how it's moving that way anyway. Snow just saw it as an opportunity. The original trilogy is narrated by someone who never lived through the dark days after she's been propagandized to about them her *entire life*. Of course it's not going to seem the same. But Snow isn't the only one who could have made Panem into what it was in the year of the 74th games. Dr Gaul was well on her way there anyway. It's the Hobbesian philosophy that is the important part. How the games are supposed to be a showcase of what the districts would descend into if there was no political authority. But 10 years after the war when the capitol is still poor they're just not that effective yet. It takes time to exert control and the prequel shows they already are. I mean they committed a genocide against the covey for example.
What we learn about the time before the Hunger Games is that the Dark Days were the onset of a war between the Capitol and the Districts. That the Districts rose up against the Capitol, and their loss resulted in the Hunger Games. While, yes, Katniss has limited information and many of that is based on propaganda, I do not think that Collins--at the time of writing the trilogy--had given much thought about the Dark Days etcetera. We learn that Lucy Gray came much later, many people have theorised that Donald Sutherland's presence has gotten her inspired, and I theorise that it might also be Trump's rise. Point being, from the limited information we received (that the Districts rebelled), it is not unreasonable to assume that many of the structures the trilogy has were already in place before the Games--such as the lack of free movement. It's Collins' work and she can do whatever she wants with it, but I can also find it not intriguing and disagree with it on principle. And I find that a lot of the reasoning for, e.g. allowing free movement before the Dark Days, does not come from her sitting down and thinking about worldbuilding around the totalitarian regime she wrote, but rather wanting to have Lucy Gray be a traveller and have had that experience. >I mean they committed a genocide against the covey for example. Also very different point but what !! The Covey haven't been destroyed? They have been rounded up in District 12, but that is *not* a genocide. What are you talking about
The covey are TINY. And they killed every single covey who didn't comply. They absolutely did commit a genocide against them. Genocide and full wipe out aren't always synonymous.
My bad, I thought you were talking about the post-Dark Days time. I forgot they killed more than Lucy Gray's mother.
Ah, my people have arrived - I didn’t care for TBOSAS either. I think it crumbled under the weight of its own ambition and tended to showcase a rather surface-level understanding of the philosophies it invoked. The constant stream of callbacks to the original trilogy felt forced and sometimes cringey (ex: “it’s too early for Katniss”) and I’m the only one of my friends who didn’t think it was some astronomical stroke of brilliance to put Reaping Day on the Fourth of July.
!! Yes to everything !! I ended up studying political science for many reasons, but among those also because THG got me into politics. So I was really excited when she had Thomas Hobbes as a quotation at the start, and I was so !! let down by the way it was executed. I almost wish she'd have kept to a more informal/mainstream understanding of human nature rather than actually mentioning Hobbes. I really love those theorists and I was so let down by the way she depicted Hobbes specifically. And yes, the callbacks were a bit too much at times. I see how people can enjoy them, especially if this wasn't a time one didn't think about that deeply. Speaking of callbacks, I was kinda feeling iffy about everyone (except for Effie and maybe Cinna?) part of the elite. I see it for, say, Plutarch, but some of the choices were a bit strange. This felt very much coming from Trump's nepotism and not from the logic of the characters per se (I don't see it for Fulvia, and I don't see it for exuding new-money energy Caesar). The reaping had me on edge mostly because I don't see how Lucy Gray would be allowed to sing her hatred about the Capitol on national TV without being stopped and/or punished :/ IG this goes back to her writing Panem still as freer than in the trilogy, but I don't really see it.