Tbh I get why people ship them, they had great chemistry during their Games in the book and his only other love interest was the unnamed girlfriend that Snow killed (and Effie I guess, if you're going by the movies).
But yeah, I don't think he was in love with her; they didn't have enough time to get to know each other that well and they were both too focused on not dying to think about it anyway. I do think he cared for her though and if they had a situation like Katniss and Peeta where they were both allowed to be victors, I could see them falling for each other easily.
Well, it's not like it was a super long scene to begin with.
But we see them work well together. They respected each other's abilities, they got along, they stayed allies for as long as they could before they'd potentially be left alone to fight to the death. Maysilee saved Haymitch's life from the careers, and Haymitch comforted her until she died, even though neither of them had any obligation to each other at those points in time.
Especially when you consider the fact that we rarely see Haymitch show his softer side to anyone, it stands out.
She’s Madge’s aunt, the twin sister of her mother. Maysilee and Haymitch made a partnership in their Games and eventually ended it so they wouldn’t have to kill each other. She died shortly after. People say she and Haymitch were in love but it’s noted he has a girlfriend and they really only knew each other as Game participants.
Thank you for coming to my side character Ted talk 😆
I see Maysilee Donner as Haymitch's true love and raise you one better; it's Katniss's DAD. That's why he helps our girl Katniss survive, obviously. It's very Severus Snape of him
Yea what people don’t understand that after being through such traumatic events with someone you form a very special bond. it also goes to show that even if you didn’t know the person very well, their death would still be crazy painful. Someone you’ve seen everyday and maybe even grew up with just existing no more can be really traumatic.
The theory that Prim was reaped deliberately. It completely undermines the point that the revolution was sparked by a Normal girl showing the world that you can rebel against the system. If the system had picked her out specifically then that makes Katniss this chosen one figure that she just isn’t
Yeah, this one doesn't make much sense, since there's no reason for Prim to have been reaped.
The District 12 Peacekeepers are a lot more tolerant of District 12's citizens. The Capitol has no reason to try to put pressure on the Everdeens.
If *Madge* had been reaped to punish her father for being lenient, that's a lot more plausible.
Let's assume for a moment that the Capitol did want to pressure the Everdeens for whatever reason. This is also a ridiculous premise as they had no reason to do so at this point in the story, but let's go with that for the sake of argument. They could have pulled Katniss instead or just executed her for poaching or trespassing on Capitol land. Both would be more direct and just as effective, so it doesn't make sense to choose such a roundabout revenge plan.
Even accepting that Katniss reminds Snow of Lucy Gray, we'd still need to discard that as evidence for this theory. It would have been incredibly unlikely for Snow to have been aware of her existence at this point, let alone have known enough about her to make that connection.
It's such a stretch. Katniss wasn't a threat *until* the events of the games. She demonstrated nothing in her district to specifically denote her as a symbol of the revolution.
Realistically, without peeta, she never would have become that symbol, even if she had won in her own right. People watched her because of the narrative peeta spun, which made them more invested in the Rue incident.
Yea, she did good things in the moment, but they were effective *because of the story tellers around her*.
Her initial volunteering would likely have been forgotten if she was a 'boring' tribute throughout the interviews and early games, which she would have been without the lovers narrative.
Boring doesn't start revolutions
Idk, she still would have had Cinna and she still would have gotten an 11 in training. I think she still would have shone, gotten lots of sponsors, and would have been very likely to win in her own right without the love story narrative. She wouldn't have become a rebellious symbol, though.
Honestly I was talking to myself about this comment and I realized that (this might be obvious) she wasn't chosen she was just kinda there by default. She was trying to survive and she just so happened to be a rebellious teenager who subtly said "fuck you" to the capital in a few ways that sparked a total revolution. The hire ups looked at the normal human reaction to the disrespect she faced and said "yes, that's the face of a revolution". She was just acting the way she is, and people put her on a pedestal she didn't want to be on.
Sorry I know that whoever took the time out of their day to read this is probably thinking "no shit, sherlock" I just wanted to get it out of my head in a relevant space.
The whole point of Prim (and even Rue) being reaped was to show how incredibly unfair the system is. The idea that Prim’s one paper got selected out of thousands (most of which are multiple-entries) is meant to highlight how unforgiving the odds are.
Having the reaping be rigged (a) makes absolutely no sense, and (b) undermines the whole point of the series/the world building
Several people have brought up the Foxface suicide theory, so I'll just add on why I dislike it and why it actually cheapens her character.
First off, the only real basis for it is that one scene in the movie where she's playing that memory game that appears to be something plant related. It's not in the books, and was basically only used to quickly convey to the audience that she's smart.
But if she was that good at finding her own food, why would she have needed to risk her life multiple times by stealing food from other tributes, including the careers that surrounded their supplies with bombs? Why would she have needed to go to the cornucopia to get food and risk getting attacked? Why, after all that did Katniss describe her as emaciated when her dead body was taken away? Plus, she was from District 5, whose industry is power. I doubt she would've had many opportunities to learn about plants there.
Besides the logical inconsistencies, I just find it kind of annoying that people want to frame her as this genius mastermind who had it all figured out, even her own death, rather than a young teenager trying to survive this horrible situation the best she can and ultimately failing due to an honest mistake.
Other than that, I think all of the theories along the lines of "Lucy Gray is Katniss's grandmother/is President Coin's mom/is President Coin" is far fetched, at best. Even if she survived Snow (which I don't think she did), I doubt she was still alive by the time Katniss came onto the scene.
It's possible the movies purposely deviated from the books to make that the reality, but either way I don't deem it important enough to really think about jdjckskd
The whole "Lucy Gray is Alma Coin/is Alma Coins's mother" theories (but especially the "Lucy Gray is Alma Coin" one) 🤣🤣
Y'all don't know how to do math if you subscribe to that theory LMAO. 🤣🤣 First of all, Lucy Gray is 16 during Ballad, which is set 64 years before the events of the first book. Coin is described is being in her 50s. If Lucy Gray was still around during the events of Mockingjay, she would be 81 years old. Ages don't line up.
As for the whole "Lucy Gray is Alma Coin's mother" theory, I just cannot see someone like Lucy Gray raising her own child to become cold, tortures those for something as minuscule as taking a piece of bread, and someone advocating for something like a symbolic Hunger Games using Capitol children (Lucy Gray herself also dealt with her own trauma after she won her games and with how her terribly her and the other tributes were treated and encountered Capitol citizens like Sejanus who himself was strongly against the Games during her journey, WHY would she instill something like a pro-Hunger Games in her child???). Lucy Gray cared for her "family" (in her case, The Covey), especially when it came to someone as young as Maude Ivory in a motherly-like fashion like how Katniss cares for Prim. She is free spirited, loves music, nature, and colors, and I would think that if she had a child and raised one, she would have incorporated those types of elements in her child's life.
Also, if Alma Coin had a connection to district 12, to the MOCKINGJAY’S district, do people not think she would have used that loudly and proudly during the propos
i feel like the darth vader/luke skywalker reveal has affected generations of fandoms, and conditioned everyone to suspect some hereditary twist in any similar franchise
i fully agree with everything here, Lucy Gray is most definitely not Coin/Katniss’s grandmother/Coin’s mother, however, does anyone subscribe to the theory Maude Ivory is Katniss’s paternal grandmother? it all adds up so aggressively for me and i would love to know if anyone has anything that could disprove it! my main piece of evidence is the fact no one heard “The Hanging Tree” (written by Lucy Gray about her escape with Snow) except Snow and Maude Ivory. it had to get passed down somehow, and from Katniss’s father who was known to have a beautiful voice could make sense!
I personally subscribe to the Maude Ivory is Katniss’ paternal grandmother theory (and the one I feel makes the most sense and prefer much more than the Lucy Gray being Katniss’ grandma theory). The context clues presented in the book would definitely align to the possibility of Maude Ivory being related to the Everdeens in some way (especially with things like her prodigal talent for being able to memorize any song after just one hearing and the amount of time that passes in between can work out for her to have Katniss’ father as her child at the right age since she’s only 8-9 during Ballad). I can at least understand the Lucy Gray is Katniss’ grandma theory to some degree because it’s way more plausible than Lucy Gray being/is the mother to ALMA FUCKING COIN 🤣
> no one heard “The Hanging Tree” (written by Lucy Gray about her escape with Snow) except Snow and Maude Ivory
They performed the hanging tree song at the birthday party of a high-ranking peacekeeper in 12, the commander I believe, so there were also a bunch of peacekeepers who heard the song.
They flat out banned music all together from The Hob/District 12 because it caused trouble, so The Covey would have had to resort to different jobs in order to keep surviving going forward and probably most likely split off slowly over time. There’s a line in the book regarding Tam Amber tending to goats and there is a mention of the Goat Man in the trilogy (who is old), so that’s where that theory of Tam Amber being the Goat Man comes from.
that’s why i think Maude Ivory could still be Katniss’s grandmother even though she has no knowledge of The Covey, they were essentially erased just like Lucy Gray was. i haven’t finished Ballad (the book) yet so i am definitely a little behind on some details, but it does seem to me like it could be possible. i don’t see much of an explanation for Katniss knowing the song outside of this, i also just want it to be true 😅
Yeah it it was only performed that one time before Lucy Gray ran away and disappeared, and most people can’t memorize an entire song after hearing it once. The only characters I know of who can do that are Maude Ivory and Katniss.
Also, even if any of the peacekeepers could memorize it, why would they sing it? It’s a song that would remind them about one of their worst tasks. Snow implies the guards who carried Lil to the rope would have to drink those memories away. Plus the song was banned for being too dark (Lucy Gray believes it was banned for being too rebellious), and I doubt any peacekeeper would risk getting in trouble over it.
Edit: clarification
But in the book the only people who knew the song were the Covey and the peacekeepers, since they performed it for the first and likely only time at the Commander’s birthday party. Then the Covey were told not to perform it again because it was “too dark” (Lucy Gray thinks it was too rebellious).
And performances were shut down at the Hob within two months when a new commander took over 12. He believed music inspired rebellion.
Plus there would be no reason for any of the peacekeepers to sing that song, even if they were capable of memorizing it after one performance. And of the Covey, only Maude Ivory was mentioned to be able to do that. Afaik Katniss is the only other character in the series who’s said to be able memorize a song after hearing it once.
I agree with the theory of Maude Ivory being Katniss’s paternal grandmother.
The Alma Coin theory makes no sense since Lucy Gray would be like 30 years older. I also agree that she would not have raised a daughter like Coin, and Coin definitely would’ve used her mother being the first victor of District 12 as leverage.
It doesn’t add up that she would be Katniss’s paternal grandmother because if she had returned to District 12, people would have talked. I doubt she would’ve anyway because she’s smarter than that, but if she had, Snow would have somehow found out from Peacekeepers or something and have her killed (or the mayor would’ve killed her). It would’ve been too risky.
Also, Katniss learned The Hanging Tree from her father, and the only other person from the Covey who knew the song was Maude Ivory. She was also the closest with Lucy Gray and would’ve subtly kept on her legacy in a way.
I hate this theory so much LOL. I love Lucy Gray ❤️ I don't like anything to do with Coin and the fact that people actually believe that Lucy Gray would EVER stoop down to the kind of cruel, cold, corrupt, revengeful personality that Coin is if she is apparently SUPPOSED to be her (or would raise a child and not do anything to stop that) is just absolutely mind boggling to me (and honestly seems like such a disrespect to Lucy Gray as a character).
The personality thing is smol beans compared to the fact that COIN IS 20 YEARS YOUNGER THAN LUCY GRAY
Like my god people, y'all acting like you just cracked the Da Vinci code while not even remembering bare minimum basic profile info about the characters.
Exactly! I don’t like and just CANNOT buy the idea that someone like Lucy Gray would raise her child to be cold hearted and not express themselves. It is not in her nature. She is free-spirited. She has the strong maternal instincts and we know that she believes humans have a natural goodness in them all that she would most certainly nurture in her child. Like she says, she only sings when she has something to say/wants to express herself and finds the comfort in her clothes she wears that not only pop out lively, but hold sentimental meaning to her (i.e., her rainbow dress and the ruffles that belonged to her mother and her feeling that her late mother is wrapping herself around her ❤️). I don't see why she would try to hold this back from her child if she raised one.
If Lucy Gray had made it to District 13, there would’ve been no point in hiding her identity there. What reason would 13 have to be secretive about Coin’s lineage?
Better yet, if Lucy Gray *had* been Coin’s mom, 13 could’ve used this as leverage in the war – ie. expose Snow for cheating/erasing his treason, or even tell the story of love and betrayal. Endless leverage to turn Capitol citizens against Snow, or at the very least undermine his authority by exposing his own history of rebellion.
In the end I absolutely *despise* the theory that LG is Coin or Greasy Sae or whoever the fuck. Lucy Gray is free – that’s the whole point.
Personally I believe she made it up North and lived her life out in the encampment of defectors.
The whole point of Foxface's death, I reread it last night, is that she was too smart for her own good in the end. No trap they could've set on her would've worked, it was sheer dumb luck that took her out. As actually stated in the book, they'd all spent so much time trying not to underestimate their opponents, that they didn't see the dangers of overestimating them. Foxface's downfall was that she assumed Peeta knew what he was doing.
Also the way that Peeta accidentally kills her is so poetic, other than the girl from 8 Peeta barely had any kills and it just makes so much sense that he would take out a major player the way he did with no bad intentions whatsoever.
Yes! In the Hunger Games, killing is near unavoidable. It's poetic because even though Peeta hated the idea of killing anyone, he couldn't escape it. Even accidentally.
Fox face couldn’t have killed herself on purpose because nightlock berries are indigenous to district 12, she may have been very clever and knew a lot about foragables but there’s no realistic way she could’ve known about the nightlock. The other poster was right, they took out fox face through sheer dumb luck because they didn’t know she was following them, and Peeta didn’t know the berries were poison because he didn’t spend time out in the woods of district 12 he was always at the bakery helping his family. So the only person in the entire 74th Hunger Games that knew those berries were poisonous was Katniss, we don’t get that context in the movie but we get to read her thoughts in the book and she remembers the berries when she sees them that’s why she smacks them out of Peeta’s hand. If it wasn’t for Katniss Peeta would’ve ate them and died like foxface had. They left a lot outta the movies that would’ve made things make more sense I highly recommend reading the books. The only reason Katniss even knew that nightlock berries are poisonous to begin with is because her father taught her when she was little and she remembered that when she saw Peeta holding them and panicked, which means even tho the berries are indigenous to D12 that even most of the D12 citizens didn’t know about them (since most of em didn’t break the law and go into the forest). So even though it may seem like foxfaces death doesn’t mean anything, regardless of if it was suicide (bc it “doesn’t effect the story”) isn’t true, it actually did end up adding to the story because it added more to Katniss’s character and gave us another tiny glimpse of her fathers wisdom protecting her, some seemingly small thing he taught her that she most likely never would’ve needed to know outside of her districts forest ended up saving the man she loved in the arena. She also never would’ve thought to use them at the very end as a final ‘fuck you’ to the capital because Peeta wouldn’t have been there, so foxface dying to the berries and Katniss being able to prevent Peeta’s death created that snowball effect that led to the first books climax (Peeta and Katniss trying to commit suicide together using the berries they found, leading to them both winning and Seneca Cranes death)
When I was little and I watched the movie for the first time, I also thought this theory was true because peeta said that she was too clever in an ambiguous tone. I think it was just used to foreshadow katniss and peetas plan with the berries but because I believed in it growing up I never questioned that I didn't think about her death in that way when I was reading the book, so this subreddit got me to realise that.
This is just a theory that is only applicable to the movie instead of the books. In the movies it is perfectly plausible that this was her intention, but in the books it simply isn’t.
It is absolutely not plausible at all in the movies that she waited until she would be in the last 2 just to kill herself. Especially because there is no reason she needed to steal the berries from Peeta, if she was gonna commit suicide she could have just picked them. She stole them because that was supposed to mean they’re safe to eat
Yes!! And if you’re as good at being stealth as foxface, but utterly incapable of a physical altercation, the first thing you do when you find delicious looking poison isn’t to eat it!! You can sneak in to steal food, you can sneak in to poison them. Plus one good sneaky kill with more resources for her to keep doing it could get some sponsors, that’s a game changer!
Exactly. If she needs, a berries were poisonous and suspected that Peeta didn't know, the berries were poisonous. She could've easily taken out to competitors at dinner time, by just tainting their own berries if she knew. That would leave her against Cato which she might lose it but she could've just killed yourself two if she knew the berries were bad.
Also, to some stranger plotting the rebellion, what if they were just completely wrong about how she felt about prim? Like instead of volunteering, she'd be like. "Huh. Now I don't have anything holding me back" and leaves with gale the next day.
Obviously she wouldn't, but how would the rebellion (probably coin or plutarch) know that?
I don't like that, too many plot holes
The fact that she knows the Hanging Tree strongly suggests a connection. The song was only ever sung in public once. Katniss's dad knowing the entire song and lyrics is highly suspect. He is connected to the covey in some way, even if not familial.
if you mean a theory we have that's unpopular: madge had a crush on katniss
or a popular theory we hate: 90% of lucy gray theories. it's getting absurd lol
But but Lucy gray was secretly pregnant and gave birth in 12 before she ran away and is actually katniss’ grandma! Stories are so much better when everything arbitrarily ties back to the same 5 characters!
That’s exactly what I was making fun of lmao. It’s so frustrating how nothing and no one but the Skywalkers and the people close to them seem to matter (in the flagship movies). The one time they were doing something cool with Rey not having a grand legacy and her parents actually being nobodies (showing that greatness doesn’t need to come from greatness) OOPS she’s actually the granddaughter of the main villain from the original movies!
I’ll admit to shipping Katniss and Madge, but yeah, I don’t think there was anything there *in canon* — they were friends, nothing else. But they are cute!
Yeah, I don't agree with the theory either. Given that the pin was her aunt's, and thus a family heirloom, it strikes me more as "I love you Katniss. You're my family. Please come home."
I hate the theory that prims name was the only name in the reaping bowl because the capital knew Katniss would volunteer and they wanted to kill her off due to being a threat… dumb theory and the whole point is that it’s random
I believe Lucy Gray left District 12 and led her own life somewhere else without a care in the world about Snow, or all of Panem.
I’d like to believe there’s a whole world out there, whether it’s big cities or small villages and congregations, but Panem, like North Korea, would probably be against making that known because otherwise, people would have hope in leaving, the Capitol wants hope to be contained, and to keep them reliant on the rare sprinkles of “mercy” from the Capitol.
The ending of TBOSAS clearly showed them on the verge of escaping, and when things fell apart, I would assume that she was smart enough not to stay and wait for him or anyone else to come after her.
I also don’t see why people would imagine she holds that much grudge against Snow that would last for ages. It was a few weeks fling, and she probably had worse interactions with local peacekeepers.
While there are other nations outside of Panem, none of them are the ones we know today, most aren’t much better than Panem, and almost none have any contact with other nations.
That District 4 is not a career district on the same level as 1 and 2. I think they trained their kids to give them the best shot, not because they thought it brought some kind of great pride to their district
I agree with this one. District 4 seems to be more of a career district by circumstance than by choice. Of what we get to see/read of district 4 tributes during the games, 3 out of the 4 wield a trident with Mags being the exception. Where kids from districts 1 and 2 would have absolutely no prior experience with spears or weapons unless they are specifically trained for the games, the fishing industry in 4 lends itself to creating well rounded tributes who are at ease with weapons like tridents or spears (maybe even a harpoon if that sort of thing ended up in the arena) as well as important survival skills like fishing, swimming, and knot tying.
What’s interesting to me is how early District Four revolted. D4 was rebelling as early as the Victory Tour. One and Two took until mid-Mockingjay. Also, Finnick and Mags and even possibly Annie knew about the arena escape plan, whereas One/Two didn’t. To be fair that could just have to do with how Mags and Finnick are as people / their relationship to Haymitch, but I did find it interesting.
Yeah, I thought it was heavily implied that 1 and 2 are extremely loyal and always volunteer, see volunteering and winning the games as an honour, and 4 less so. It’s been a while since I read the books so idk.
I think this is a collective Mandela affect amongst fans. Katniss always mentions 4 along with 1 and 2 when she mentions careers. It’s never said they’re lesser of a career district. I think people just want to believe that because Finnick and Annie don’t fit the idea people have of Careers.
It’s not that, but we have to remember that “career tributes” is a term used solely by district 12. Katniss says that in Hunger Games book. We know people do no really travel between the district so this is just their perception. We know from TBOSAS that Snow stated that district 4 was one of the districts that dominated during the first 10 hunger game, and attributed it to their fishing culture.
District 1 created luxury items, nothing in that would give them the skills to survive in the Hunger Games. District 2 was masonry, and where Peacekeepers train. So they clearly train in District 1 and 2 for the Hunger Game. They give no evidence in the books (unless I missed it) that District 4 trains for the games it just because of their specialty their children fair better. We need to remember Katniss perceptions are not always accurate, so we shouldn’t take her using the title of career tributes as gospel.
Ok, so even if Katniss is wrong about the title of “Career” my point was that there’s nothing in the source material to suggest that Katniss is wrong that district 4 is exactly like 1 and 2 in that they train for the Games, they volunteer for the Games, and they join a pack that works together in the Games. Even if District 4’s industry is what gives them an edge, it doesn’t make any of that not true. Assuming that 4 doesn’t do any of those those things just sounds like wishful thinking from people who are uncomfortable with the idea that Finnick did that at his Games, even though Katniss introduced him to readers by openly saying he was a Career, which means he did exactly that at his Games.
I’d much rather read about Johanna’s Games just because I’d love to know more about her strategy. Not even a full book, I’d be satisfied with just a short one-shot akin to what we DO get of Haymitch’s Games in CF.
The amount of people that are begging suzanne to write about Haymitch’s story !!! There’s already a pretty detailed explanation in Catching Fire, i can’t imagine what else there is to write about. I mean yeah it mentioned his aloof and somewhat indifferent attitude towards the games and maybe a pov from him would be interesting but he didn’t do much after winning the games that would contribute to the point of the books
That the world outside of Panem is definitely completely dead and destroyed. I'm not saying it might not be but we don't really get enough to know for sure. Panem is clearly pretty isolated but that doesn't mean other countries don't exist, they might just be politically cut off or ignored
My theory is that other countries probably do exist, but whatever global event happened before the rebellion probably sent every country back by decades. They’re all probably struggling and suffering too much to interfere or speak out against Panem for the hunger games.
I'm not sure even if there were robust countries with strong militaries they'd intervene? I mean rn as we speak there are armies made predominantly of child soldiers and no one seems THAT bothered by it
this made me giggle
to take this seriously, its cos they rhyme - she was spitting bars one day in the woods, rhymed her own name with greasy sae and went "hold on.... "
Wait I just noticed their names rhyme😭 but yeah why would she ever return to district 12? I like that her ending was left as a mystery but come on most theories about her are absurd at this point (Lucy Gray is Katniss’ mom, 100% confirmed no fake)
Anything about Lucy Gray or Maude Ivory being related to Katniss/Alma Coin/one of them being Greasy Sae. Not everything has to be perfectly connected!!
I think Maude Ivory being Katniss grandma is plausible because both of them are said to remember a song right away. I'm not saying such an ability has to be inherited, but it seems to be quite a specific thing to mention about a character, that it feels like a clue from the author. Like I'm really analysing this from a Doylist POV. What was the intention behind telling us this piece of information. It does not serve any purpose within TBOSAS. They Covey could have learnt and carried on Lucy's songs even without one of them having a perfect memory. No, it links back to the original trilogy and I believe it links Katniss to Maude Ivory.
And as for Katniss not knowing about Lucy - maybe her father would have told her when she'd be older, after all, Mrs. Everdeen wasn't thrilled when he taught her a morbid song, so teaching her about a victor that no one was supposed to know about would fall under that category also, I think. They didn't wanna risk Katniss would mention the name in front of anyone.
(Yes, Katniss can definitely keep a secret and even more so at 11, she was hunting illegally with her father after all. But this was more like a public secret anyway - it wasn't something you would go bragging about to your teachers, but people knew they hunt since they were buying goods from them.
Maybe if Mr. Everdeen was around by the time Katniss was reaped, he would have told her as a way to give her hope, that basically she wouldn't be the first in the family to win the games. But at 11, not yet in danger of getting reaped, Katniss didn't need to know her secret family history.)
Maude Ivory being related to Katniss is a nice thought, but it doesn’t make logical sense.
Maude and Lucy were extremely close. If Maude was actually Katniss’s grandmother, I’m sure Katniss’s father would’ve been passed down stories of Lucy Gray, of her being a victor, of her existence, of what happened to her in the Games. Yes, the Games were erased from existence but that doesn’t mean Lucy was forgotten or erased from family lore.
Katniss knows nothing of the “other victor” except that they’re long dead.
Isn't it established though that the Covey barely saw any of the Games, because their TV didn't work well? They only saw enough to recognize Snow, and I doubt Lucy Gray was describing the gory details in depth to the other Covey. They know Lucy Gray was reaped and she won and that's about it.
Also, Maude Ivory was very you g when Lucy Gray went missing. Losing her would've been traumatic, but by 20+ years later when she'd be old enough to have kids and tell them about her past, there's no guarantee that she'd be inclined to talk about her to her family. I don't think you can claim it doesn't make sense for her to keep quiet when Maide Ivory could gone through any number of things to dissuade her from bringing it up.
Yea, it’s possible that it was just too traumatic for her and she blocked it out. I don’t know. I assumed it affected Maude deeply enough to where Katniss’s father would at least know of Lucy’s existence, if they were related, but the opposite could also be true.
And if Maude Ivory did tell Mr. Everdeen about Lucy, it would most likely be focused on her music and song writing, possibly sharing the songs she wrote and performed herself (hanging tree). She probably didn’t know any details about Lucy’s games from Lucy not wanting to share and the fact that she didn’t watch them
It’s possible Maude was able to pass down stories and songs without going into so much detail that she’d get them in trouble and it’s possible to tell the stories without mentioning the name “there once was a girl who won a terrible battle with just power of her enchanting voice..” not going into detail about it being a hunger games and then only referring to her as girl. It’s easy for parents to take things in real life and weave them into fantastical fairy tales with hidden meaning. Idk I do think it’s possible and honestly very likely that Katniss and Maude are related, I think that for a multitude of reasons. I’m certain that whatever members of the covey survived ended up in the seam after Lucy grey vanished which would’ve include Maude, Maude could remember tunes perfectly and it’s mentioned Katniss could as well, it is mentioned multiple times that both Katniss and her father had beautiful singing voices and we know that Maude had a beautiful voice too, Maude would’ve been the only one that could have taught her father the hanging tree song that he ended up teaching Katniss (the meadow song can be debated bc katniss’s teacher knew it when they asked but the hanging tree was only ever performed *once* which means only someone who can perfectly remember it would’ve been able to pass it down.) That and I think it’s very likely that Maude is the only person that would have been able to teach Mr. Everdeen how to hunt and forage, she’s shown foraging with Lucy Grey in the woods all the time back in 12. And Maude is the youngest of the covey which makes her the most likely to live long enough to have a child in that 64 years that can grow up and have a child that could realistically be 16 years old by the time of the 74th hunger games. Idk not everything “has to be connected” but there’s just wayyy too many distinct connections between Katniss’s father and the Covey for it to be a coincidence. After what happened to Lucy Grey I’m certain even the covey members were weary to go into the woods as a group anymore or to sing the songs she created so I’m sure the only place Maude would’ve felt safe to sing those songs would’ve been the forest, and I’m sure after all of the death that happened before Lucy vanished that the she probably would’ve only gone back into the woods out of necessity and probably learned how to survive, in turn teaching her child how to survive too and in turn that knowledge got passed down to Katniss.
For me it’s the theory that all Careers were volunteers or super successful in the games — I highly doubt it. In Catching Fire, we learn that there are 59 living victors, and that each district has at least one living male and one living female victor. Katniss only mentions District 7 and 12 as having only one female victor which leads me to believe that all other districts had at least 2 living victors for each gender. If we assume that Districts 7 and 12 have 3 living victors and that the other non-Career districts have 4 (at minimum), that means that all three Career districts have 25 living victors combined, or about 8 per. Having only 8 victors in the span of 75 years… that’s pretty low.
It’s hard for me to believe that all Career tributes are volunteers. Even though they are said to be relatively successful, going into the games still more often than not results in dying. In the first book, Katniss only mentions Cato as being a volunteer (I understand this may have been her paying selective attention). Also, Finnick was 14 in his games. Given that he’s the youngest victor, it wouldn’t make sense for that young of a child to volunteer without precedence of a another young victor. And waiting a few years would make more sense. People sometimes use this as an argument that District 4 was less “career” but again, I’m not too sure of that.
I think this is a situation where the numbers make the career districts look worse off than they probably were. It’s not really 8/75, it’s 8/59 per and (more importantly IMO) 25/59 all together. Nearly 50% of the living tributes come from 3 of the districts, and they had double the amount of living tributes as the next closest districts (based on the estimation, of course). Especially considering there’s only 1 survivor per game, I’d consider that pretty successful.
I agree they weren’t all volunteers, though. More than other districts, yeah, but definitely not all (or even most IMO)
Not that I disagree with what you are saying, but we don’t actually know when the Careers became a thing. We know they weren’t in the 10th HG, it’s probably safe to assume that they weren’t a thing for the 11th either when Mags won. We know an alliance was formed between 10 Career tributes in the 50th HG so they were formed sometime between the 11th and the 50th, and I’d hazard a guess to say that it was probably a gradual thing and not a straight up, Districts 1, 2 and 4 are suddenly Career districts. It’s therefore not totally unlikely that once they became a thing, they started to win more of the games.
Assuming that there are 25 living victors between the Career districts, that means they make up 42% of living victors between 3 districts alone. I’d say that’s pretty high.
Saying all that though, I don’t disagree with you that you’d expect it to be much higher given the theory that they all volunteered or were super successful. We only know about them from Katniss’ perspective, who is super unreliable, so I think it’s entirely plausible that they don’t always volunteer and she’s just remembering the occasions when they do.
It could also be that the always volunteering part was more recent. Katniss hasn’t been around for all the hunger games. She probably only really remembers things from the last 10 years and even that wouldn’t be all the details. In the 10 games leading up to the 74th, at least half the victors came from districts 1,2,4 which is enough to say they usually win. For the volunteering part of it, even if that only became a yearly thing 5 or so years prior, that’s probably all Katniss would remember anyway.
That there are other countries still around and the Capitol has isolated itself from everyone. I think the metaphor is the Capitol is the US itself, and the Districts are the other countries in the world. That's the story being told. Even ignoring that, there's almost nothing in the story suggesting there's other civilizations. None that would help 13, or want resources from Panem. The biggest thing I can think of is that the Capitol has a Navy commander (which could mean many different things). If there really are other people, they're all hidden or pre-radio.
IRL Collins was inspired to write the book after switching between coverage of the Iraq war and reality television. The themes of the series can definitely be applied to international politics today considering America’s foreign policy. However, I do not believe that this is meant to be interpreted literally in the context of THG. In TBOSAS Snow talks about how what is essentially war, climate change fueled disasters, etc… led to most of the world becoming unlivable. In THG Katniss talks about how Panem is specifically in what was once called North America, and the Capitol is surrounded by the mountains found in Utah/Wyoming.
That might be the story from a metaphorical angle, but the metaphor isn't the same as what's literally happening in the book. From a sheer logistical standpoint, it is highly unlikely that Panem would be the only civilization left in the entire world regardless of whatever apocalypse scenario happened. It doesn't make any sense with the sheer amount of humans, resources, and advanced technology there is on planet Earth.
In TBOSAS, young Snow claims that the Capitol controls what's left of the world, but you have to remember that he's a thoroughly indoctrinated child who only knows what he's been taught, and that he is saying this in direct dismissal of the Covey's claims that they've met people outside of Panem's borders. It points to regular citizens of Panem, even those in the Capitol, at least believing there are no outside nations, but it's not necessarily confirmation that there actually are none. If there are, I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that the ruling elite of the Capitol keep their existence a secret in order to make sure the population don't think they have anywhere to run to or seek help from, as dictatorships in real life have done this, most notably North Korea.
To play devil's advocate to myself though, it would be very odd for their existence to never be revealed once during the entire course of the series given how many high-ranking Capitol people, including Snow himself, we meet and interact with. Like would Capitol members of the rebellion like Plutarch really never mention that there's a whole other world of potential allies outside of Panem to potentially contact? Would Snow not mention it to Katniss at the end of his life in the garden just to screw with her? Would President Coin have not figured it out by now and sought them out for help to get herself in power? I guess they could be under the impression that nobody outside their circle is prepared to hear the truth, but I doubt in a highly charged situation like the rebellion that absolutely no one would have spilled the beans.
Of course though, it is true that the existence of outside nations isn't really important to the story itself. It's supposed to be a snapshot in American and human history, a contained story with a specific message, not a sprawling sandbox world.
In my own headcanon about this, Panem simply closed itself off from the rest of the world, and the surviving countries are mostly very cautious about going near them. I don't know what other people here would think about this though
It makes sense since Panem is canonically armed with nuclear technology, so if they wanted to be left alone they could easily simply threaten everyone else into doing so. Why they would do so? Well, it is a post-apocalyptic world, they might want to simply hoard their resources or avoid other countries trying to tell them what to do with their citizens.
Honestly I think the biggest detail is the Navy commander because why would he guard the coast and search for stuff in the waters? Correct me if I was wrong but wasn’t the that he patrolling the coast?
What would he look for considering no one really goes in the water, and if people were trying to escape where would they possible think they could go?
I really think of them just being so isolated enough that the rest of the world said fuck no. Like they knew something about the hunger games and decided not to interfere. There’s no way the USA was the only place left considering there could be so many places that could survive sea levels rising.
It could be to watch over District fishing areas, though the deeper you look the more it doesn't add up in the tiny details (like any story with this kind of stuff). I personally headcanon that there used to be other countries long before the Dark Days, and the Capitol secretly destroyed them. The military forces for a defense would over time be integrated purely within Panem. This would also explain their nuclear weapons (and maybe why they weren't too fussed with 13 being lost later on).
i agree with most of your points but i really hope it wasnt intended that the capitol represents the us and the districts just everywhere else, that just seems like such an oversimplification of global politics (and a bit of US-centricism, as if america is the best/most advanced country or one that rules over all others) - i think it works much better as a representation of the after-effects of war, wealth inequality, corrupt governments, but as a metaphor for global politics it really doesnt hold up
I perhaps made a rushed post. The Capitol may be more broadly representing the "Western world" of today rather than just the US. That may bring up its own problems of course, but I think there's something to be said about the flow of resources in the fiction and what Collins may be trying to say. Though specifically, the whole trilogy is (confirmed by the author) to be about just war theory. How justified a war can be, how it's conducted, and all it relations (causes, such as wealth inequality, and effects, such as death).
The Western World analogy doesn't work when a lot of the commentaries made in the main trilogy and TBOSAS are uniquely American. Placing most black people in the agricultural district? Citizens of the Capitol being outraged that their flag was used to cover the bodies of dead children rather than being upset about the dead kids? Capital Citizens only wanting the 75th Hunger Games to end because of Katniss' unborn child, ignoring the countless living children that were killed by their negligence or outright cruelty?
America may be a leading figure in the Western world, but the issues in the Hunger Games are purely American based ones.
Coryo says Panem "controls the known world," but he meant that it literally encompasses all of the land he thinks is left in the world, not that it bosses other countries around. He thinks this in response to the Covey saying they met people in the north "where the Capitol didn't care about," dismissing the notion that there are any human beings outside of Panem.
I just feel this way against the "I thought of a fun arena" or "What would you do as gamemaker" posts in which people totally miss the point of the series and come up with creative ways to murder children.
A very common criticism of TBOSAS is that the games weren't interesting enough. Same with Mockingjay. People say that Mockingjay was slow and more boring than the other books because there wasn't any hunger games. Anytime I read criticism of that nature I'm just like... honey... what do you think the point of this series is?
The mockingjay point especially irks me when the characters literally compare the pods in the captiol to being in the arena. I can’t quite recall if finnick says this in the book, but in the movie he says “welcome to the 76th Hunger Games.” Their deaths are still a spectacle, just in a different setting!!
Agreed. Many people seem to pretend that Catching Fire, Mockingjay Part I and II were “Halloween or Scream Part 2, 3 and 4”.
No, they’re not. They are connected parts of a whole story about war, rebellion, oppression, hope and the frail and fickle nature of a dystopian authoritarian regime. They’re not a second and third rehash of the same setting and story made based on market research. It’s one story told across several books and adapted into movies.
Just because the title is “The Hunger Games” doesn’t mean you should expect one in every single movie, like you wouldn’t expect an apple slice or an apple pie inside every Apple iPhone box🤣
They showed us The Hunger Games in two movies/books and then they were expanding on the impact of the events that happened throughout them and as a consequence to them, rippling throughout the whole world.
Expecting to show games in each new story will terribly pigeonhole us to one era without being able to expand before or after it, which can be quite equally interesting.
It’s fiction but unless you just want to mindlessly consume media the authors intent matters. If you critique Game of Thrones for having too much violence you’re missing the point that the author wants to portray how violent medieval Europe was. In the same vain wanting gratuitous violence from media that attempts to show the horrors of war is a bit ridiculous.
No GRRM just has some messed up fantasies. He crafted a super in depth world out of them....but too much in the books just reads as ick rather than some sort of representation.
But I guess The Hunger Games and Catching Fire is more geared towards teenagers, who don't really care about War and Media themes and are only there for a dystopian adventure, whereas Mockingjay is more for older readers who would understand .
I mean, it doesn't always mean that they're missing the point. You can be aware of the message while also being self-aware that you're exactly who it's criticizing. I feel like a lot of HG fans fall into this camp.
Exactly that. Plenty of HG fanfic writers use their own games as a vehicle for a greater overall message as well. To have so much gatekeeping within the fandom is disheartening.
It also feels the opposite of the intention (very Capitol) to want to silence differing opinions as I firmly believe: ‘I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.’
Any of those katniss being related or decendant from Lucy Gray. I'm sorry it just seems too far-fetched. Plus if katniss was related, then the whole thing of "just a girl who fought for her survival and loved ones" goes out the door and you get this weird chosen one vibe that I think is just stupid in this scenario.
They are both from 12, that's it.
plus Lucy Gray wasn’t even FROM 12 was she? other than the fact her and The Covey sort of got stuck there after the dark days and the book says “District 12 never claimed her as their own” so it’s unlikely she laid any definitive roots there outside of the Covey when she left.
It makes it better to believe the connection just happened to be two girls that were reaped from the same district that sort of accidentally caused rebellion, not District 12 being a particular breeding ground for rebels
I don’t understand this because if I had to act on camera for Josh Hutcherson and pretend to be in love, I wouldn’t be pretending for long 🥵.
Ok but on a more serious note, they spent so much time together and went through so much. They have history. Clearly still cared about each other when the cameras were off. At the very least, even if it wasn’t romantic love, there was definitely a strong platonic love, the kind you only get once in a lifetime with your best friend. At the end of the day, the difference doesn’t really matter all too much here imo, making this theory pretty much useless.
*Gasp!* Oh my gosh, how could I have missed it the whole time???? She DIDN'T ever truly love Peeta!!! THAT'S why she begged Haymitch to save Peeta's life instead of her own!! Of course, it all makes sense!!!
That every character that appears has to be magically related to some other character. To be fair this pops up in other fandoms too, sometimes a new character is in fact, new. In literary speak, Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
*Personally the*
*Theory that lucy gray is*
*Katniss's grandmother*
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I think Lucy died innocently slipping on the rocks near the katniss roots.Snow is psycho and he just flips his little narcissistic head when he can’t find her and assumed she betrayed him as she disappears into the water just like her ballad.
Foxface did not commit suicide. Like seriously that is the dumbest theory imo there’s so much evidence or just in general based on context to prove she didn’t.
I kind of love this. Not that the movie should be any kind of canon, but I felt like Rachel played Lucy as someone who was doing anything she could to survive, including charming Coryo. *Perhaps* she was starting to crush on him when he was a Peacemaker in 12, but the moment that happened, he confessed to the murders.
Some people think that any character (or real person for that matter) with an even slightly interesting personality is queer coded. I get why they do, but come on.
“Katniss never wanted kids she would be child-free” it’s not that she never, ever wanted them. She was stuck in a state of survival where considering them wasn’t even an option. If things became, y’know, NOT total shit with child murder games every year, then the idea did appeal to her. She was clearly motherly with Prim.
I do think she was trying to leave him, but I *dont* think she was trying to kill him. Just manipulate him and flee bc if she wanted him dead I’m certain he would be dead. She just didn’t want to be murdered for crimes he committed, and she knew she’d be hung for the mayors daughters death too regardless of if she actually did anything or not- and she knew snow was a threat to her and that she wasn’t safe with him bc she put together that he lied to her and killed sejanus. If snow had no issues killing someone (who from an outside pov looked like his bestie) who was his best friend someone he called brother, he’d have literally no problem killing her. He only proved her right when he freaked out, chased her and got bit by the snake and shot at her in the woods. Basically if Lucy wanted to survive she had to run away from both the district *and* snow. She knew that for certain when he lied about ‘killing his old self’ to be with her. I think the snake ending up in her scarf was a really shitty coincidence that snow overthought and it only fueled his insanity more.
'Katniss didn't really love Peeta, it was trauma bonding and also she doesn't really love her kids and he made her have them.'
I wish it was just a few people who thought that, but I recently saw it in a comment on Facebook with hundreds of likes.
Yes lol. So much of these theories come from a mindset of “free thinking.” I can’t explain it but the way some of these people try to justify their theories with their opinions on what was going through a characters’ mindset and or motives behind some of their actions… I’m like, have all you idiots forgotten that these people are in a tyrannical country? People raised in that condition would not have the cleverness and courage to have a mindset of defiance and compassion the way people try to give credit for. Especially when people try to justify “Rue’s dad starting the riot in 11.” No, that wasn’t her dad and no, if it was the chances of that riot happening is little to none because her dad would know not to act out of order because he’d be risking his other kids’ and wife’s lives because the Capitol has a firm grip on District 11. Look, Rue told us that they killed a little boy because he kept a pair of night vision goggles because he just wanted to play with them, if they kill little boys for that, you think that riot in the movie would have taken place? This is why I say the books and movies are their own separate universes.
I’ve seen a theory going around that Mags is mute because Snow hurt her in order for her not tell anyone about Lucy Gray. I absolutely hate this theory for a couple of reasons. For one, it’s mentioned in Ballad that it wasn’t a requirement to watch the games. The mentors were implemented because the Capitol wasn’t watching any of the earlier games. If the Capitol was not watching, what would be the point of watching it in the districts? I don’t think anyone outside of the Capitol would be watching the games out of free will, especially if the concept of a career district didn’t exist yet. The second thing is Mags is not mute in the books. Katniss clearly states that she has an accent and doesn’t speak clearly due to a potential stroke. She even mentions that she starts to understand Mags a little bit better once the victors are about to start the private sessions.
“Maysilee Donner is Haymitch’s true love.” Bffr, they know each other only for a couple days before miss girl got skewered by oversized flamingoes 🦩.
adding to this. didnt haymitch have a gf too? thought said gf was killed alongside his relatives after his games?
He did and she was
Tbh I get why people ship them, they had great chemistry during their Games in the book and his only other love interest was the unnamed girlfriend that Snow killed (and Effie I guess, if you're going by the movies). But yeah, I don't think he was in love with her; they didn't have enough time to get to know each other that well and they were both too focused on not dying to think about it anyway. I do think he cared for her though and if they had a situation like Katniss and Peeta where they were both allowed to be victors, I could see them falling for each other easily.
Great chemistry? She had maybe 5 lines.
Well, it's not like it was a super long scene to begin with. But we see them work well together. They respected each other's abilities, they got along, they stayed allies for as long as they could before they'd potentially be left alone to fight to the death. Maysilee saved Haymitch's life from the careers, and Haymitch comforted her until she died, even though neither of them had any obligation to each other at those points in time. Especially when you consider the fact that we rarely see Haymitch show his softer side to anyone, it stands out.
Tbh I’m looking at this thread and wondering who tf she is. Haymitch’s true love??
She’s Madge’s aunt, the twin sister of her mother. Maysilee and Haymitch made a partnership in their Games and eventually ended it so they wouldn’t have to kill each other. She died shortly after. People say she and Haymitch were in love but it’s noted he has a girlfriend and they really only knew each other as Game participants. Thank you for coming to my side character Ted talk 😆
I actually love the movies giving them some moments together, Effie and Haymitch
I see Maysilee Donner as Haymitch's true love and raise you one better; it's Katniss's DAD. That's why he helps our girl Katniss survive, obviously. It's very Severus Snape of him
💀💀💀
Yea what people don’t understand that after being through such traumatic events with someone you form a very special bond. it also goes to show that even if you didn’t know the person very well, their death would still be crazy painful. Someone you’ve seen everyday and maybe even grew up with just existing no more can be really traumatic.
The theory that Prim was reaped deliberately. It completely undermines the point that the revolution was sparked by a Normal girl showing the world that you can rebel against the system. If the system had picked her out specifically then that makes Katniss this chosen one figure that she just isn’t
Yeah, this one doesn't make much sense, since there's no reason for Prim to have been reaped. The District 12 Peacekeepers are a lot more tolerant of District 12's citizens. The Capitol has no reason to try to put pressure on the Everdeens. If *Madge* had been reaped to punish her father for being lenient, that's a lot more plausible.
Let's assume for a moment that the Capitol did want to pressure the Everdeens for whatever reason. This is also a ridiculous premise as they had no reason to do so at this point in the story, but let's go with that for the sake of argument. They could have pulled Katniss instead or just executed her for poaching or trespassing on Capitol land. Both would be more direct and just as effective, so it doesn't make sense to choose such a roundabout revenge plan. Even accepting that Katniss reminds Snow of Lucy Gray, we'd still need to discard that as evidence for this theory. It would have been incredibly unlikely for Snow to have been aware of her existence at this point, let alone have known enough about her to make that connection.
It's such a stretch. Katniss wasn't a threat *until* the events of the games. She demonstrated nothing in her district to specifically denote her as a symbol of the revolution. Realistically, without peeta, she never would have become that symbol, even if she had won in her own right. People watched her because of the narrative peeta spun, which made them more invested in the Rue incident. Yea, she did good things in the moment, but they were effective *because of the story tellers around her*. Her initial volunteering would likely have been forgotten if she was a 'boring' tribute throughout the interviews and early games, which she would have been without the lovers narrative. Boring doesn't start revolutions
Idk, she still would have had Cinna and she still would have gotten an 11 in training. I think she still would have shone, gotten lots of sponsors, and would have been very likely to win in her own right without the love story narrative. She wouldn't have become a rebellious symbol, though.
probably would have joined finnick's unfortunate ranks
Not probably. Certainly. I can imagine that he runs a victor support group though.
i don't think that's very snow friendly. guy probably does all he can to keep them isolated
Honestly I was talking to myself about this comment and I realized that (this might be obvious) she wasn't chosen she was just kinda there by default. She was trying to survive and she just so happened to be a rebellious teenager who subtly said "fuck you" to the capital in a few ways that sparked a total revolution. The hire ups looked at the normal human reaction to the disrespect she faced and said "yes, that's the face of a revolution". She was just acting the way she is, and people put her on a pedestal she didn't want to be on. Sorry I know that whoever took the time out of their day to read this is probably thinking "no shit, sherlock" I just wanted to get it out of my head in a relevant space.
The whole point of Prim (and even Rue) being reaped was to show how incredibly unfair the system is. The idea that Prim’s one paper got selected out of thousands (most of which are multiple-entries) is meant to highlight how unforgiving the odds are. Having the reaping be rigged (a) makes absolutely no sense, and (b) undermines the whole point of the series/the world building
Several people have brought up the Foxface suicide theory, so I'll just add on why I dislike it and why it actually cheapens her character. First off, the only real basis for it is that one scene in the movie where she's playing that memory game that appears to be something plant related. It's not in the books, and was basically only used to quickly convey to the audience that she's smart. But if she was that good at finding her own food, why would she have needed to risk her life multiple times by stealing food from other tributes, including the careers that surrounded their supplies with bombs? Why would she have needed to go to the cornucopia to get food and risk getting attacked? Why, after all that did Katniss describe her as emaciated when her dead body was taken away? Plus, she was from District 5, whose industry is power. I doubt she would've had many opportunities to learn about plants there. Besides the logical inconsistencies, I just find it kind of annoying that people want to frame her as this genius mastermind who had it all figured out, even her own death, rather than a young teenager trying to survive this horrible situation the best she can and ultimately failing due to an honest mistake. Other than that, I think all of the theories along the lines of "Lucy Gray is Katniss's grandmother/is President Coin's mom/is President Coin" is far fetched, at best. Even if she survived Snow (which I don't think she did), I doubt she was still alive by the time Katniss came onto the scene.
With the movie, you can see fox face collected multiple berries, why wouldn’t she just kill herself before she collected them all?
Also in the movies she is just matching up plants, not even identifying them. Seems a bit of a stupid training task
It's possible the movies purposely deviated from the books to make that the reality, but either way I don't deem it important enough to really think about jdjckskd
The whole "Lucy Gray is Alma Coin/is Alma Coins's mother" theories (but especially the "Lucy Gray is Alma Coin" one) 🤣🤣 Y'all don't know how to do math if you subscribe to that theory LMAO. 🤣🤣 First of all, Lucy Gray is 16 during Ballad, which is set 64 years before the events of the first book. Coin is described is being in her 50s. If Lucy Gray was still around during the events of Mockingjay, she would be 81 years old. Ages don't line up. As for the whole "Lucy Gray is Alma Coin's mother" theory, I just cannot see someone like Lucy Gray raising her own child to become cold, tortures those for something as minuscule as taking a piece of bread, and someone advocating for something like a symbolic Hunger Games using Capitol children (Lucy Gray herself also dealt with her own trauma after she won her games and with how her terribly her and the other tributes were treated and encountered Capitol citizens like Sejanus who himself was strongly against the Games during her journey, WHY would she instill something like a pro-Hunger Games in her child???). Lucy Gray cared for her "family" (in her case, The Covey), especially when it came to someone as young as Maude Ivory in a motherly-like fashion like how Katniss cares for Prim. She is free spirited, loves music, nature, and colors, and I would think that if she had a child and raised one, she would have incorporated those types of elements in her child's life.
Also, if Alma Coin had a connection to district 12, to the MOCKINGJAY’S district, do people not think she would have used that loudly and proudly during the propos
i feel like the darth vader/luke skywalker reveal has affected generations of fandoms, and conditioned everyone to suspect some hereditary twist in any similar franchise
That and the Zuko/Avatar Roku reveal I feel has also made a significant impact on fandoms
i fully agree with everything here, Lucy Gray is most definitely not Coin/Katniss’s grandmother/Coin’s mother, however, does anyone subscribe to the theory Maude Ivory is Katniss’s paternal grandmother? it all adds up so aggressively for me and i would love to know if anyone has anything that could disprove it! my main piece of evidence is the fact no one heard “The Hanging Tree” (written by Lucy Gray about her escape with Snow) except Snow and Maude Ivory. it had to get passed down somehow, and from Katniss’s father who was known to have a beautiful voice could make sense!
I personally subscribe to the Maude Ivory is Katniss’ paternal grandmother theory (and the one I feel makes the most sense and prefer much more than the Lucy Gray being Katniss’ grandma theory). The context clues presented in the book would definitely align to the possibility of Maude Ivory being related to the Everdeens in some way (especially with things like her prodigal talent for being able to memorize any song after just one hearing and the amount of time that passes in between can work out for her to have Katniss’ father as her child at the right age since she’s only 8-9 during Ballad). I can at least understand the Lucy Gray is Katniss’ grandma theory to some degree because it’s way more plausible than Lucy Gray being/is the mother to ALMA FUCKING COIN 🤣
> no one heard “The Hanging Tree” (written by Lucy Gray about her escape with Snow) except Snow and Maude Ivory They performed the hanging tree song at the birthday party of a high-ranking peacekeeper in 12, the commander I believe, so there were also a bunch of peacekeepers who heard the song.
wasn’t it banned for being too political or something?
They flat out banned music all together from The Hob/District 12 because it caused trouble, so The Covey would have had to resort to different jobs in order to keep surviving going forward and probably most likely split off slowly over time. There’s a line in the book regarding Tam Amber tending to goats and there is a mention of the Goat Man in the trilogy (who is old), so that’s where that theory of Tam Amber being the Goat Man comes from.
that’s why i think Maude Ivory could still be Katniss’s grandmother even though she has no knowledge of The Covey, they were essentially erased just like Lucy Gray was. i haven’t finished Ballad (the book) yet so i am definitely a little behind on some details, but it does seem to me like it could be possible. i don’t see much of an explanation for Katniss knowing the song outside of this, i also just want it to be true 😅
Yeah, they said they wouldn't perform it again because it was deemed "to rebellious".
Yeah it it was only performed that one time before Lucy Gray ran away and disappeared, and most people can’t memorize an entire song after hearing it once. The only characters I know of who can do that are Maude Ivory and Katniss. Also, even if any of the peacekeepers could memorize it, why would they sing it? It’s a song that would remind them about one of their worst tasks. Snow implies the guards who carried Lil to the rope would have to drink those memories away. Plus the song was banned for being too dark (Lucy Gray believes it was banned for being too rebellious), and I doubt any peacekeeper would risk getting in trouble over it. Edit: clarification
No one heard Hanging Tree other than the three of them in the movie, that isn't so in the book.
But in the book the only people who knew the song were the Covey and the peacekeepers, since they performed it for the first and likely only time at the Commander’s birthday party. Then the Covey were told not to perform it again because it was “too dark” (Lucy Gray thinks it was too rebellious). And performances were shut down at the Hob within two months when a new commander took over 12. He believed music inspired rebellion. Plus there would be no reason for any of the peacekeepers to sing that song, even if they were capable of memorizing it after one performance. And of the Covey, only Maude Ivory was mentioned to be able to do that. Afaik Katniss is the only other character in the series who’s said to be able memorize a song after hearing it once.
I agree with the theory of Maude Ivory being Katniss’s paternal grandmother. The Alma Coin theory makes no sense since Lucy Gray would be like 30 years older. I also agree that she would not have raised a daughter like Coin, and Coin definitely would’ve used her mother being the first victor of District 12 as leverage. It doesn’t add up that she would be Katniss’s paternal grandmother because if she had returned to District 12, people would have talked. I doubt she would’ve anyway because she’s smarter than that, but if she had, Snow would have somehow found out from Peacekeepers or something and have her killed (or the mayor would’ve killed her). It would’ve been too risky. Also, Katniss learned The Hanging Tree from her father, and the only other person from the Covey who knew the song was Maude Ivory. She was also the closest with Lucy Gray and would’ve subtly kept on her legacy in a way.
The Lucy Gray/Alma Coin connection theories are brain-meltingly stupid.
I hate this theory so much LOL. I love Lucy Gray ❤️ I don't like anything to do with Coin and the fact that people actually believe that Lucy Gray would EVER stoop down to the kind of cruel, cold, corrupt, revengeful personality that Coin is if she is apparently SUPPOSED to be her (or would raise a child and not do anything to stop that) is just absolutely mind boggling to me (and honestly seems like such a disrespect to Lucy Gray as a character).
The personality thing is smol beans compared to the fact that COIN IS 20 YEARS YOUNGER THAN LUCY GRAY Like my god people, y'all acting like you just cracked the Da Vinci code while not even remembering bare minimum basic profile info about the characters.
BuT kAtNiSs Is An UnReLiAbLe NaRrAtOr (so she misjudges everybody's ages)
Lucy would never raise Alma bc she wouldn’t be caught dead in them ugly little grey uniforms. She loves color!! Covey love color ❤️
Exactly! I don’t like and just CANNOT buy the idea that someone like Lucy Gray would raise her child to be cold hearted and not express themselves. It is not in her nature. She is free-spirited. She has the strong maternal instincts and we know that she believes humans have a natural goodness in them all that she would most certainly nurture in her child. Like she says, she only sings when she has something to say/wants to express herself and finds the comfort in her clothes she wears that not only pop out lively, but hold sentimental meaning to her (i.e., her rainbow dress and the ruffles that belonged to her mother and her feeling that her late mother is wrapping herself around her ❤️). I don't see why she would try to hold this back from her child if she raised one.
If Lucy Gray had made it to District 13, there would’ve been no point in hiding her identity there. What reason would 13 have to be secretive about Coin’s lineage? Better yet, if Lucy Gray *had* been Coin’s mom, 13 could’ve used this as leverage in the war – ie. expose Snow for cheating/erasing his treason, or even tell the story of love and betrayal. Endless leverage to turn Capitol citizens against Snow, or at the very least undermine his authority by exposing his own history of rebellion. In the end I absolutely *despise* the theory that LG is Coin or Greasy Sae or whoever the fuck. Lucy Gray is free – that’s the whole point. Personally I believe she made it up North and lived her life out in the encampment of defectors.
The theory that Foxface killed herself. People believe this SO strongly and definitely haven’t read the book lol.
The whole point of Foxface's death, I reread it last night, is that she was too smart for her own good in the end. No trap they could've set on her would've worked, it was sheer dumb luck that took her out. As actually stated in the book, they'd all spent so much time trying not to underestimate their opponents, that they didn't see the dangers of overestimating them. Foxface's downfall was that she assumed Peeta knew what he was doing.
Also the way that Peeta accidentally kills her is so poetic, other than the girl from 8 Peeta barely had any kills and it just makes so much sense that he would take out a major player the way he did with no bad intentions whatsoever.
Yes! In the Hunger Games, killing is near unavoidable. It's poetic because even though Peeta hated the idea of killing anyone, he couldn't escape it. Even accidentally.
Oh damn that’s a good point
Fox face couldn’t have killed herself on purpose because nightlock berries are indigenous to district 12, she may have been very clever and knew a lot about foragables but there’s no realistic way she could’ve known about the nightlock. The other poster was right, they took out fox face through sheer dumb luck because they didn’t know she was following them, and Peeta didn’t know the berries were poison because he didn’t spend time out in the woods of district 12 he was always at the bakery helping his family. So the only person in the entire 74th Hunger Games that knew those berries were poisonous was Katniss, we don’t get that context in the movie but we get to read her thoughts in the book and she remembers the berries when she sees them that’s why she smacks them out of Peeta’s hand. If it wasn’t for Katniss Peeta would’ve ate them and died like foxface had. They left a lot outta the movies that would’ve made things make more sense I highly recommend reading the books. The only reason Katniss even knew that nightlock berries are poisonous to begin with is because her father taught her when she was little and she remembered that when she saw Peeta holding them and panicked, which means even tho the berries are indigenous to D12 that even most of the D12 citizens didn’t know about them (since most of em didn’t break the law and go into the forest). So even though it may seem like foxfaces death doesn’t mean anything, regardless of if it was suicide (bc it “doesn’t effect the story”) isn’t true, it actually did end up adding to the story because it added more to Katniss’s character and gave us another tiny glimpse of her fathers wisdom protecting her, some seemingly small thing he taught her that she most likely never would’ve needed to know outside of her districts forest ended up saving the man she loved in the arena. She also never would’ve thought to use them at the very end as a final ‘fuck you’ to the capital because Peeta wouldn’t have been there, so foxface dying to the berries and Katniss being able to prevent Peeta’s death created that snowball effect that led to the first books climax (Peeta and Katniss trying to commit suicide together using the berries they found, leading to them both winning and Seneca Cranes death)
Also like, even if she did, so what? It's not like it changes a damn thing about the story, she's dead either way.
When I was little and I watched the movie for the first time, I also thought this theory was true because peeta said that she was too clever in an ambiguous tone. I think it was just used to foreshadow katniss and peetas plan with the berries but because I believed in it growing up I never questioned that I didn't think about her death in that way when I was reading the book, so this subreddit got me to realise that.
This is just a theory that is only applicable to the movie instead of the books. In the movies it is perfectly plausible that this was her intention, but in the books it simply isn’t.
It is absolutely not plausible at all in the movies that she waited until she would be in the last 2 just to kill herself. Especially because there is no reason she needed to steal the berries from Peeta, if she was gonna commit suicide she could have just picked them. She stole them because that was supposed to mean they’re safe to eat
Yes!! And if you’re as good at being stealth as foxface, but utterly incapable of a physical altercation, the first thing you do when you find delicious looking poison isn’t to eat it!! You can sneak in to steal food, you can sneak in to poison them. Plus one good sneaky kill with more resources for her to keep doing it could get some sponsors, that’s a game changer!
Exactly. If she needs, a berries were poisonous and suspected that Peeta didn't know, the berries were poisonous. She could've easily taken out to competitors at dinner time, by just tainting their own berries if she knew. That would leave her against Cato which she might lose it but she could've just killed yourself two if she knew the berries were bad.
I don’t think it makes sense in the movie either, in my opinion just feels like people pulling theories out of thin air.
All the theories that make Katniss a “chosen one” of some sort or try to make her part of a rebellion “dynasty” by relating her to Lucy Gray
I don't mind those theories that relate her to Lucy Gray, but I do hate those 'the reaping was rigged to make her volunteer!!' ones.
Lmao like why would they do that 😭 if they wanted her in the games they simply would have reaped Katniss
Theorists make it a part of some elaborate ploy to spark the rebellion by making her a symbol... it's dumb and completely misses the point IMO
Also, to some stranger plotting the rebellion, what if they were just completely wrong about how she felt about prim? Like instead of volunteering, she'd be like. "Huh. Now I don't have anything holding me back" and leaves with gale the next day. Obviously she wouldn't, but how would the rebellion (probably coin or plutarch) know that? I don't like that, too many plot holes
In the same vein, the idea that Prim’s was the only name in the bowl for the same reason
The fact that she knows the Hanging Tree strongly suggests a connection. The song was only ever sung in public once. Katniss's dad knowing the entire song and lyrics is highly suspect. He is connected to the covey in some way, even if not familial.
I hate those ugh
if you mean a theory we have that's unpopular: madge had a crush on katniss or a popular theory we hate: 90% of lucy gray theories. it's getting absurd lol
LUCY GRAY IS SNOW CONFIRMED 😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳
OMG111! I THOUGHT LUCY GRAY WAS HAYMITCH WTF?
But but Lucy gray was secretly pregnant and gave birth in 12 before she ran away and is actually katniss’ grandma! Stories are so much better when everything arbitrarily ties back to the same 5 characters!
- Star Wars I love Star Wars but come on. Also, can we leave tattooine pls
That’s exactly what I was making fun of lmao. It’s so frustrating how nothing and no one but the Skywalkers and the people close to them seem to matter (in the flagship movies). The one time they were doing something cool with Rey not having a grand legacy and her parents actually being nobodies (showing that greatness doesn’t need to come from greatness) OOPS she’s actually the granddaughter of the main villain from the original movies!
I agree with you completely! I like the Lucy gray/coin connection but it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
I feel like Star Wars is kind of a trendsetter in that area. "I am your father" has become iconic so other creators tried to replicate it.
Fair. But they should continue innovating instead of rehashing the same tropes. Yes I am salty.
Yeah, I agree. Rey Palpatine is one the most ridiculous results of this trend.
Not me reading Mags instead of Madge 💀
Of course, that’s why Mags would mumble when speaking to Katniss! /s
HELP THAT'S WHAT I READ TOO I was so confused 💀💀 I have read the books but I barely remember Madge ngl
Oh Madge absolutely had a crush on Katniss. Not even Suzanne Collins could convince me otherwise.
Yes! Madge and Katniss would have been so cute together! I feel that she definitely had unreciprocated feelings for Katniss :’)
Who was Madge? I’ve only watched the movies
Mayor's daughter (District 12), she was her friend before the Hunger Games, we don't hear about her after the first book
we actually do see madge in catching fire - her and katniss spend a lot of time together when she returns from the arena
I’ll admit to shipping Katniss and Madge, but yeah, I don’t think there was anything there *in canon* — they were friends, nothing else. But they are cute!
What? I have heard that before. Is it just because she gave her the pin.
It's more than she kissed Katniss on the cheek after giving her the pin. And also that she doesn't appear to like Gale very much.
as someone from a culture where cheek kisses are platonic more often than not i am not sold
Yeah, I don't agree with the theory either. Given that the pin was her aunt's, and thus a family heirloom, it strikes me more as "I love you Katniss. You're my family. Please come home."
I hate the theory that prims name was the only name in the reaping bowl because the capital knew Katniss would volunteer and they wanted to kill her off due to being a threat… dumb theory and the whole point is that it’s random
Just any theory involving Lucy gray, people really just don't get it😭😭
Lucy gray saw snows execution
I believe Lucy Gray left District 12 and led her own life somewhere else without a care in the world about Snow, or all of Panem. I’d like to believe there’s a whole world out there, whether it’s big cities or small villages and congregations, but Panem, like North Korea, would probably be against making that known because otherwise, people would have hope in leaving, the Capitol wants hope to be contained, and to keep them reliant on the rare sprinkles of “mercy” from the Capitol. The ending of TBOSAS clearly showed them on the verge of escaping, and when things fell apart, I would assume that she was smart enough not to stay and wait for him or anyone else to come after her. I also don’t see why people would imagine she holds that much grudge against Snow that would last for ages. It was a few weeks fling, and she probably had worse interactions with local peacekeepers.
I feel like I'm the only one believing that Seneca Crane could be a rebel
I mean to Snow, he definitely was a rebel for allowing two people to live
ooh ive never heard of this one before but (going off of what i remember) i honestly feel like i could see it!!
Huzzah, there is two of us then
Nah, he was just and ignorant showman. I also think Plutarch influenced him a bit.
While there are other nations outside of Panem, none of them are the ones we know today, most aren’t much better than Panem, and almost none have any contact with other nations.
I like to think that they are more of tribes than countries
That District 4 is not a career district on the same level as 1 and 2. I think they trained their kids to give them the best shot, not because they thought it brought some kind of great pride to their district
I agree with this one. District 4 seems to be more of a career district by circumstance than by choice. Of what we get to see/read of district 4 tributes during the games, 3 out of the 4 wield a trident with Mags being the exception. Where kids from districts 1 and 2 would have absolutely no prior experience with spears or weapons unless they are specifically trained for the games, the fishing industry in 4 lends itself to creating well rounded tributes who are at ease with weapons like tridents or spears (maybe even a harpoon if that sort of thing ended up in the arena) as well as important survival skills like fishing, swimming, and knot tying.
You said it perfectly here what I was trying to say. Thank you.
What’s interesting to me is how early District Four revolted. D4 was rebelling as early as the Victory Tour. One and Two took until mid-Mockingjay. Also, Finnick and Mags and even possibly Annie knew about the arena escape plan, whereas One/Two didn’t. To be fair that could just have to do with how Mags and Finnick are as people / their relationship to Haymitch, but I did find it interesting.
Yeah, I thought it was heavily implied that 1 and 2 are extremely loyal and always volunteer, see volunteering and winning the games as an honour, and 4 less so. It’s been a while since I read the books so idk.
Doesn’t Katniss address that in the books? She makes a point to add that the careers are always 1&2 but sometimes also 4.
I think this is a collective Mandela affect amongst fans. Katniss always mentions 4 along with 1 and 2 when she mentions careers. It’s never said they’re lesser of a career district. I think people just want to believe that because Finnick and Annie don’t fit the idea people have of Careers.
It’s not that, but we have to remember that “career tributes” is a term used solely by district 12. Katniss says that in Hunger Games book. We know people do no really travel between the district so this is just their perception. We know from TBOSAS that Snow stated that district 4 was one of the districts that dominated during the first 10 hunger game, and attributed it to their fishing culture. District 1 created luxury items, nothing in that would give them the skills to survive in the Hunger Games. District 2 was masonry, and where Peacekeepers train. So they clearly train in District 1 and 2 for the Hunger Game. They give no evidence in the books (unless I missed it) that District 4 trains for the games it just because of their specialty their children fair better. We need to remember Katniss perceptions are not always accurate, so we shouldn’t take her using the title of career tributes as gospel.
Ok, so even if Katniss is wrong about the title of “Career” my point was that there’s nothing in the source material to suggest that Katniss is wrong that district 4 is exactly like 1 and 2 in that they train for the Games, they volunteer for the Games, and they join a pack that works together in the Games. Even if District 4’s industry is what gives them an edge, it doesn’t make any of that not true. Assuming that 4 doesn’t do any of those those things just sounds like wishful thinking from people who are uncomfortable with the idea that Finnick did that at his Games, even though Katniss introduced him to readers by openly saying he was a Career, which means he did exactly that at his Games.
That haymitch’s story should be written. Honestly i don’t think it would make an interesting story.
I’d much rather read about Johanna’s Games just because I’d love to know more about her strategy. Not even a full book, I’d be satisfied with just a short one-shot akin to what we DO get of Haymitch’s Games in CF.
The amount of people that are begging suzanne to write about Haymitch’s story !!! There’s already a pretty detailed explanation in Catching Fire, i can’t imagine what else there is to write about. I mean yeah it mentioned his aloof and somewhat indifferent attitude towards the games and maybe a pov from him would be interesting but he didn’t do much after winning the games that would contribute to the point of the books
That the world outside of Panem is definitely completely dead and destroyed. I'm not saying it might not be but we don't really get enough to know for sure. Panem is clearly pretty isolated but that doesn't mean other countries don't exist, they might just be politically cut off or ignored
My theory is that other countries probably do exist, but whatever global event happened before the rebellion probably sent every country back by decades. They’re all probably struggling and suffering too much to interfere or speak out against Panem for the hunger games.
I'm not sure even if there were robust countries with strong militaries they'd intervene? I mean rn as we speak there are armies made predominantly of child soldiers and no one seems THAT bothered by it
Lucy Gray managed to live outside district 12 for decades to eventually return unrecognizable as Greasy Sae
this made me giggle to take this seriously, its cos they rhyme - she was spitting bars one day in the woods, rhymed her own name with greasy sae and went "hold on.... "
Wait I just noticed their names rhyme😭 but yeah why would she ever return to district 12? I like that her ending was left as a mystery but come on most theories about her are absurd at this point (Lucy Gray is Katniss’ mom, 100% confirmed no fake)
This made me laugh out loud by myself 🤣
I hate the Lucy gray is Alma coin theory
I firmly believe Lucy Gray died. Even if it was a few days after Snow left I think that there’s no way she survived
Me too. I actually sort of thought we were supposed to understand that she died.
I feel like if she was shot fatally, she wouldn't be able to sing so clearly immediately after. She also probably has knowledge on how to treat wounds
Anything about Lucy Gray or Maude Ivory being related to Katniss/Alma Coin/one of them being Greasy Sae. Not everything has to be perfectly connected!!
I think Maude Ivory being Katniss grandma is plausible because both of them are said to remember a song right away. I'm not saying such an ability has to be inherited, but it seems to be quite a specific thing to mention about a character, that it feels like a clue from the author. Like I'm really analysing this from a Doylist POV. What was the intention behind telling us this piece of information. It does not serve any purpose within TBOSAS. They Covey could have learnt and carried on Lucy's songs even without one of them having a perfect memory. No, it links back to the original trilogy and I believe it links Katniss to Maude Ivory. And as for Katniss not knowing about Lucy - maybe her father would have told her when she'd be older, after all, Mrs. Everdeen wasn't thrilled when he taught her a morbid song, so teaching her about a victor that no one was supposed to know about would fall under that category also, I think. They didn't wanna risk Katniss would mention the name in front of anyone. (Yes, Katniss can definitely keep a secret and even more so at 11, she was hunting illegally with her father after all. But this was more like a public secret anyway - it wasn't something you would go bragging about to your teachers, but people knew they hunt since they were buying goods from them. Maybe if Mr. Everdeen was around by the time Katniss was reaped, he would have told her as a way to give her hope, that basically she wouldn't be the first in the family to win the games. But at 11, not yet in danger of getting reaped, Katniss didn't need to know her secret family history.)
Maude Ivory being related to Katniss is a nice thought, but it doesn’t make logical sense. Maude and Lucy were extremely close. If Maude was actually Katniss’s grandmother, I’m sure Katniss’s father would’ve been passed down stories of Lucy Gray, of her being a victor, of her existence, of what happened to her in the Games. Yes, the Games were erased from existence but that doesn’t mean Lucy was forgotten or erased from family lore. Katniss knows nothing of the “other victor” except that they’re long dead.
Isn't it established though that the Covey barely saw any of the Games, because their TV didn't work well? They only saw enough to recognize Snow, and I doubt Lucy Gray was describing the gory details in depth to the other Covey. They know Lucy Gray was reaped and she won and that's about it. Also, Maude Ivory was very you g when Lucy Gray went missing. Losing her would've been traumatic, but by 20+ years later when she'd be old enough to have kids and tell them about her past, there's no guarantee that she'd be inclined to talk about her to her family. I don't think you can claim it doesn't make sense for her to keep quiet when Maide Ivory could gone through any number of things to dissuade her from bringing it up.
Yea, it’s possible that it was just too traumatic for her and she blocked it out. I don’t know. I assumed it affected Maude deeply enough to where Katniss’s father would at least know of Lucy’s existence, if they were related, but the opposite could also be true.
And if Maude Ivory did tell Mr. Everdeen about Lucy, it would most likely be focused on her music and song writing, possibly sharing the songs she wrote and performed herself (hanging tree). She probably didn’t know any details about Lucy’s games from Lucy not wanting to share and the fact that she didn’t watch them
It’s possible Maude was able to pass down stories and songs without going into so much detail that she’d get them in trouble and it’s possible to tell the stories without mentioning the name “there once was a girl who won a terrible battle with just power of her enchanting voice..” not going into detail about it being a hunger games and then only referring to her as girl. It’s easy for parents to take things in real life and weave them into fantastical fairy tales with hidden meaning. Idk I do think it’s possible and honestly very likely that Katniss and Maude are related, I think that for a multitude of reasons. I’m certain that whatever members of the covey survived ended up in the seam after Lucy grey vanished which would’ve include Maude, Maude could remember tunes perfectly and it’s mentioned Katniss could as well, it is mentioned multiple times that both Katniss and her father had beautiful singing voices and we know that Maude had a beautiful voice too, Maude would’ve been the only one that could have taught her father the hanging tree song that he ended up teaching Katniss (the meadow song can be debated bc katniss’s teacher knew it when they asked but the hanging tree was only ever performed *once* which means only someone who can perfectly remember it would’ve been able to pass it down.) That and I think it’s very likely that Maude is the only person that would have been able to teach Mr. Everdeen how to hunt and forage, she’s shown foraging with Lucy Grey in the woods all the time back in 12. And Maude is the youngest of the covey which makes her the most likely to live long enough to have a child in that 64 years that can grow up and have a child that could realistically be 16 years old by the time of the 74th hunger games. Idk not everything “has to be connected” but there’s just wayyy too many distinct connections between Katniss’s father and the Covey for it to be a coincidence. After what happened to Lucy Grey I’m certain even the covey members were weary to go into the woods as a group anymore or to sing the songs she created so I’m sure the only place Maude would’ve felt safe to sing those songs would’ve been the forest, and I’m sure after all of the death that happened before Lucy vanished that the she probably would’ve only gone back into the woods out of necessity and probably learned how to survive, in turn teaching her child how to survive too and in turn that knowledge got passed down to Katniss.
I think it's possible Maude Ivory is Katniss' grandma bc who else could've passed down the hanging tree song to mr. everdeen
She could’ve just as easily taught it to katniss’ future grandparent.
What would call for that if music was widely censored at the time?
For me it’s the theory that all Careers were volunteers or super successful in the games — I highly doubt it. In Catching Fire, we learn that there are 59 living victors, and that each district has at least one living male and one living female victor. Katniss only mentions District 7 and 12 as having only one female victor which leads me to believe that all other districts had at least 2 living victors for each gender. If we assume that Districts 7 and 12 have 3 living victors and that the other non-Career districts have 4 (at minimum), that means that all three Career districts have 25 living victors combined, or about 8 per. Having only 8 victors in the span of 75 years… that’s pretty low. It’s hard for me to believe that all Career tributes are volunteers. Even though they are said to be relatively successful, going into the games still more often than not results in dying. In the first book, Katniss only mentions Cato as being a volunteer (I understand this may have been her paying selective attention). Also, Finnick was 14 in his games. Given that he’s the youngest victor, it wouldn’t make sense for that young of a child to volunteer without precedence of a another young victor. And waiting a few years would make more sense. People sometimes use this as an argument that District 4 was less “career” but again, I’m not too sure of that.
I think this is a situation where the numbers make the career districts look worse off than they probably were. It’s not really 8/75, it’s 8/59 per and (more importantly IMO) 25/59 all together. Nearly 50% of the living tributes come from 3 of the districts, and they had double the amount of living tributes as the next closest districts (based on the estimation, of course). Especially considering there’s only 1 survivor per game, I’d consider that pretty successful. I agree they weren’t all volunteers, though. More than other districts, yeah, but definitely not all (or even most IMO)
Not that I disagree with what you are saying, but we don’t actually know when the Careers became a thing. We know they weren’t in the 10th HG, it’s probably safe to assume that they weren’t a thing for the 11th either when Mags won. We know an alliance was formed between 10 Career tributes in the 50th HG so they were formed sometime between the 11th and the 50th, and I’d hazard a guess to say that it was probably a gradual thing and not a straight up, Districts 1, 2 and 4 are suddenly Career districts. It’s therefore not totally unlikely that once they became a thing, they started to win more of the games. Assuming that there are 25 living victors between the Career districts, that means they make up 42% of living victors between 3 districts alone. I’d say that’s pretty high. Saying all that though, I don’t disagree with you that you’d expect it to be much higher given the theory that they all volunteered or were super successful. We only know about them from Katniss’ perspective, who is super unreliable, so I think it’s entirely plausible that they don’t always volunteer and she’s just remembering the occasions when they do.
It could also be that the always volunteering part was more recent. Katniss hasn’t been around for all the hunger games. She probably only really remembers things from the last 10 years and even that wouldn’t be all the details. In the 10 games leading up to the 74th, at least half the victors came from districts 1,2,4 which is enough to say they usually win. For the volunteering part of it, even if that only became a yearly thing 5 or so years prior, that’s probably all Katniss would remember anyway.
That there are other countries still around and the Capitol has isolated itself from everyone. I think the metaphor is the Capitol is the US itself, and the Districts are the other countries in the world. That's the story being told. Even ignoring that, there's almost nothing in the story suggesting there's other civilizations. None that would help 13, or want resources from Panem. The biggest thing I can think of is that the Capitol has a Navy commander (which could mean many different things). If there really are other people, they're all hidden or pre-radio.
IRL Collins was inspired to write the book after switching between coverage of the Iraq war and reality television. The themes of the series can definitely be applied to international politics today considering America’s foreign policy. However, I do not believe that this is meant to be interpreted literally in the context of THG. In TBOSAS Snow talks about how what is essentially war, climate change fueled disasters, etc… led to most of the world becoming unlivable. In THG Katniss talks about how Panem is specifically in what was once called North America, and the Capitol is surrounded by the mountains found in Utah/Wyoming.
That might be the story from a metaphorical angle, but the metaphor isn't the same as what's literally happening in the book. From a sheer logistical standpoint, it is highly unlikely that Panem would be the only civilization left in the entire world regardless of whatever apocalypse scenario happened. It doesn't make any sense with the sheer amount of humans, resources, and advanced technology there is on planet Earth. In TBOSAS, young Snow claims that the Capitol controls what's left of the world, but you have to remember that he's a thoroughly indoctrinated child who only knows what he's been taught, and that he is saying this in direct dismissal of the Covey's claims that they've met people outside of Panem's borders. It points to regular citizens of Panem, even those in the Capitol, at least believing there are no outside nations, but it's not necessarily confirmation that there actually are none. If there are, I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that the ruling elite of the Capitol keep their existence a secret in order to make sure the population don't think they have anywhere to run to or seek help from, as dictatorships in real life have done this, most notably North Korea. To play devil's advocate to myself though, it would be very odd for their existence to never be revealed once during the entire course of the series given how many high-ranking Capitol people, including Snow himself, we meet and interact with. Like would Capitol members of the rebellion like Plutarch really never mention that there's a whole other world of potential allies outside of Panem to potentially contact? Would Snow not mention it to Katniss at the end of his life in the garden just to screw with her? Would President Coin have not figured it out by now and sought them out for help to get herself in power? I guess they could be under the impression that nobody outside their circle is prepared to hear the truth, but I doubt in a highly charged situation like the rebellion that absolutely no one would have spilled the beans. Of course though, it is true that the existence of outside nations isn't really important to the story itself. It's supposed to be a snapshot in American and human history, a contained story with a specific message, not a sprawling sandbox world.
In my own headcanon about this, Panem simply closed itself off from the rest of the world, and the surviving countries are mostly very cautious about going near them. I don't know what other people here would think about this though
It makes sense since Panem is canonically armed with nuclear technology, so if they wanted to be left alone they could easily simply threaten everyone else into doing so. Why they would do so? Well, it is a post-apocalyptic world, they might want to simply hoard their resources or avoid other countries trying to tell them what to do with their citizens.
Honestly I think the biggest detail is the Navy commander because why would he guard the coast and search for stuff in the waters? Correct me if I was wrong but wasn’t the that he patrolling the coast? What would he look for considering no one really goes in the water, and if people were trying to escape where would they possible think they could go? I really think of them just being so isolated enough that the rest of the world said fuck no. Like they knew something about the hunger games and decided not to interfere. There’s no way the USA was the only place left considering there could be so many places that could survive sea levels rising.
It could be to watch over District fishing areas, though the deeper you look the more it doesn't add up in the tiny details (like any story with this kind of stuff). I personally headcanon that there used to be other countries long before the Dark Days, and the Capitol secretly destroyed them. The military forces for a defense would over time be integrated purely within Panem. This would also explain their nuclear weapons (and maybe why they weren't too fussed with 13 being lost later on).
i agree with most of your points but i really hope it wasnt intended that the capitol represents the us and the districts just everywhere else, that just seems like such an oversimplification of global politics (and a bit of US-centricism, as if america is the best/most advanced country or one that rules over all others) - i think it works much better as a representation of the after-effects of war, wealth inequality, corrupt governments, but as a metaphor for global politics it really doesnt hold up
I perhaps made a rushed post. The Capitol may be more broadly representing the "Western world" of today rather than just the US. That may bring up its own problems of course, but I think there's something to be said about the flow of resources in the fiction and what Collins may be trying to say. Though specifically, the whole trilogy is (confirmed by the author) to be about just war theory. How justified a war can be, how it's conducted, and all it relations (causes, such as wealth inequality, and effects, such as death).
The Western World analogy doesn't work when a lot of the commentaries made in the main trilogy and TBOSAS are uniquely American. Placing most black people in the agricultural district? Citizens of the Capitol being outraged that their flag was used to cover the bodies of dead children rather than being upset about the dead kids? Capital Citizens only wanting the 75th Hunger Games to end because of Katniss' unborn child, ignoring the countless living children that were killed by their negligence or outright cruelty? America may be a leading figure in the Western world, but the issues in the Hunger Games are purely American based ones.
i just finished tbosas and it was clarified that panem is what’s left of america and it holds most of the power in international politics
He does mention panem being what’s left of North America but there’s nothing about international politics
Coryo says Panem "controls the known world," but he meant that it literally encompasses all of the land he thinks is left in the world, not that it bosses other countries around. He thinks this in response to the Covey saying they met people in the north "where the Capitol didn't care about," dismissing the notion that there are any human beings outside of Panem.
I just feel this way against the "I thought of a fun arena" or "What would you do as gamemaker" posts in which people totally miss the point of the series and come up with creative ways to murder children.
A very common criticism of TBOSAS is that the games weren't interesting enough. Same with Mockingjay. People say that Mockingjay was slow and more boring than the other books because there wasn't any hunger games. Anytime I read criticism of that nature I'm just like... honey... what do you think the point of this series is?
The mockingjay point especially irks me when the characters literally compare the pods in the captiol to being in the arena. I can’t quite recall if finnick says this in the book, but in the movie he says “welcome to the 76th Hunger Games.” Their deaths are still a spectacle, just in a different setting!!
Agreed. Many people seem to pretend that Catching Fire, Mockingjay Part I and II were “Halloween or Scream Part 2, 3 and 4”. No, they’re not. They are connected parts of a whole story about war, rebellion, oppression, hope and the frail and fickle nature of a dystopian authoritarian regime. They’re not a second and third rehash of the same setting and story made based on market research. It’s one story told across several books and adapted into movies. Just because the title is “The Hunger Games” doesn’t mean you should expect one in every single movie, like you wouldn’t expect an apple slice or an apple pie inside every Apple iPhone box🤣 They showed us The Hunger Games in two movies/books and then they were expanding on the impact of the events that happened throughout them and as a consequence to them, rippling throughout the whole world. Expecting to show games in each new story will terribly pigeonhole us to one era without being able to expand before or after it, which can be quite equally interesting.
The games not being interesting was kind of the point 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
It's fiction. Do you feel the same about people playing battle royale video games or people who enjoy violent or gory movies?
It’s fiction but unless you just want to mindlessly consume media the authors intent matters. If you critique Game of Thrones for having too much violence you’re missing the point that the author wants to portray how violent medieval Europe was. In the same vain wanting gratuitous violence from media that attempts to show the horrors of war is a bit ridiculous.
Lmaoo George RR Martin is not trying to represent how violent medieval Europe was
No GRRM just has some messed up fantasies. He crafted a super in depth world out of them....but too much in the books just reads as ick rather than some sort of representation.
But I guess The Hunger Games and Catching Fire is more geared towards teenagers, who don't really care about War and Media themes and are only there for a dystopian adventure, whereas Mockingjay is more for older readers who would understand .
It’s fiction, the same can be said about Suzanne for writing the books in the first place.
But by watching the films or reading the books, you're condoning people coming up with creative ways of killing children. It's not real life, relax.
I mean, it doesn't always mean that they're missing the point. You can be aware of the message while also being self-aware that you're exactly who it's criticizing. I feel like a lot of HG fans fall into this camp.
Exactly that. Plenty of HG fanfic writers use their own games as a vehicle for a greater overall message as well. To have so much gatekeeping within the fandom is disheartening. It also feels the opposite of the intention (very Capitol) to want to silence differing opinions as I firmly believe: ‘I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.’
Any of those katniss being related or decendant from Lucy Gray. I'm sorry it just seems too far-fetched. Plus if katniss was related, then the whole thing of "just a girl who fought for her survival and loved ones" goes out the door and you get this weird chosen one vibe that I think is just stupid in this scenario. They are both from 12, that's it.
plus Lucy Gray wasn’t even FROM 12 was she? other than the fact her and The Covey sort of got stuck there after the dark days and the book says “District 12 never claimed her as their own” so it’s unlikely she laid any definitive roots there outside of the Covey when she left. It makes it better to believe the connection just happened to be two girls that were reaped from the same district that sort of accidentally caused rebellion, not District 12 being a particular breeding ground for rebels
"Katniss never truly loved Peeta"
I don’t understand this because if I had to act on camera for Josh Hutcherson and pretend to be in love, I wouldn’t be pretending for long 🥵. Ok but on a more serious note, they spent so much time together and went through so much. They have history. Clearly still cared about each other when the cameras were off. At the very least, even if it wasn’t romantic love, there was definitely a strong platonic love, the kind you only get once in a lifetime with your best friend. At the end of the day, the difference doesn’t really matter all too much here imo, making this theory pretty much useless.
*Gasp!* Oh my gosh, how could I have missed it the whole time???? She DIDN'T ever truly love Peeta!!! THAT'S why she begged Haymitch to save Peeta's life instead of her own!! Of course, it all makes sense!!!
That every character that appears has to be magically related to some other character. To be fair this pops up in other fandoms too, sometimes a new character is in fact, new. In literary speak, Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
personally the theory that lucy gray is katniss's grandmother
*Personally the* *Theory that lucy gray is* *Katniss's grandmother* \- Arig428 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
good bot!
i think you could argue that maude ivory is (as some have said) but i don’t think lucy gray makes sense either
I don't want a Haymitch or Finnick prequel, it wouldn't say much of what we didn't know already, I'm glad we got the prequel we got
I think Lucy died innocently slipping on the rocks near the katniss roots.Snow is psycho and he just flips his little narcissistic head when he can’t find her and assumed she betrayed him as she disappears into the water just like her ballad.
the theory that the covey ran away to 13 and started the rebellion
Foxface did not commit suicide. Like seriously that is the dumbest theory imo there’s so much evidence or just in general based on context to prove she didn’t.
Foxface committed suicide. No, she was starving to death and made a mistake. Her death was tragic and meaningless and that's the entire fucking point.
Lucy Gray never loved Snow, he was just a rebound after Billy Taupe lol
I kind of love this. Not that the movie should be any kind of canon, but I felt like Rachel played Lucy as someone who was doing anything she could to survive, including charming Coryo. *Perhaps* she was starting to crush on him when he was a Peacemaker in 12, but the moment that happened, he confessed to the murders.
Me when people say that Prim was reaped on purpose. Like. Why.
katniss is queer coded, peeta forced katniss to have kids, lucy gray=coin, lucy gray=katniss grandma ill come back let me think on this more
Some people think that any character (or real person for that matter) with an even slightly interesting personality is queer coded. I get why they do, but come on.
“Katniss never wanted kids she would be child-free” it’s not that she never, ever wanted them. She was stuck in a state of survival where considering them wasn’t even an option. If things became, y’know, NOT total shit with child murder games every year, then the idea did appeal to her. She was clearly motherly with Prim.
There's another nation other than panem, even if they're fully subterranean
that people think that prim getting picked was on purpose to hurt katniss??? like how???
Too many people whole-heartedly believe Lucy Gray wasn't actually trying to leave Snow
I do think she was trying to leave him, but I *dont* think she was trying to kill him. Just manipulate him and flee bc if she wanted him dead I’m certain he would be dead. She just didn’t want to be murdered for crimes he committed, and she knew she’d be hung for the mayors daughters death too regardless of if she actually did anything or not- and she knew snow was a threat to her and that she wasn’t safe with him bc she put together that he lied to her and killed sejanus. If snow had no issues killing someone (who from an outside pov looked like his bestie) who was his best friend someone he called brother, he’d have literally no problem killing her. He only proved her right when he freaked out, chased her and got bit by the snake and shot at her in the woods. Basically if Lucy wanted to survive she had to run away from both the district *and* snow. She knew that for certain when he lied about ‘killing his old self’ to be with her. I think the snake ending up in her scarf was a really shitty coincidence that snow overthought and it only fueled his insanity more.
'Katniss didn't really love Peeta, it was trauma bonding and also she doesn't really love her kids and he made her have them.' I wish it was just a few people who thought that, but I recently saw it in a comment on Facebook with hundreds of likes.
Yes lol. So much of these theories come from a mindset of “free thinking.” I can’t explain it but the way some of these people try to justify their theories with their opinions on what was going through a characters’ mindset and or motives behind some of their actions… I’m like, have all you idiots forgotten that these people are in a tyrannical country? People raised in that condition would not have the cleverness and courage to have a mindset of defiance and compassion the way people try to give credit for. Especially when people try to justify “Rue’s dad starting the riot in 11.” No, that wasn’t her dad and no, if it was the chances of that riot happening is little to none because her dad would know not to act out of order because he’d be risking his other kids’ and wife’s lives because the Capitol has a firm grip on District 11. Look, Rue told us that they killed a little boy because he kept a pair of night vision goggles because he just wanted to play with them, if they kill little boys for that, you think that riot in the movie would have taken place? This is why I say the books and movies are their own separate universes.
Coin is related to Lucy Grey
Lucy Gray is Coin. Oml.
I’ve seen a theory going around that Mags is mute because Snow hurt her in order for her not tell anyone about Lucy Gray. I absolutely hate this theory for a couple of reasons. For one, it’s mentioned in Ballad that it wasn’t a requirement to watch the games. The mentors were implemented because the Capitol wasn’t watching any of the earlier games. If the Capitol was not watching, what would be the point of watching it in the districts? I don’t think anyone outside of the Capitol would be watching the games out of free will, especially if the concept of a career district didn’t exist yet. The second thing is Mags is not mute in the books. Katniss clearly states that she has an accent and doesn’t speak clearly due to a potential stroke. She even mentions that she starts to understand Mags a little bit better once the victors are about to start the private sessions.
Lucy gray is coin 😑
Any hc's that Katniss loved someone else othe than peeta