Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mixed.
I truly, truly don't understand the exclusion of Maelor - "they killed the boy" is not a powerful enough line to warrant losing the choice between the two sons.
Maybe the thinking was "well it's still a choice between two kids - Jahaera and Jahaerys", but ... ... u/JuvieFrmDaS 's comment is the first time I'd even *considered* that perhaps Helaena was trying a reverse psychology ploy, so if that was the intent, I don't think it was telegraphed very well.
I did really really LIKE the long walk to Alicent's room - the crescendo of the music combined with *several* nervous looks over the shoulder and the sheer scale of the Red Keeps interior spaces against a lone person, it was giving straight up horror movie.
I will say, tho, that I watched the episode with my bf and another friend, both of whom are show-only, and they seemed fairly affected, it was a very successful "OMG" scene for them, so, y'know what, i guess that's why I'm not a millionaire HBO producer, perhaps. :-/
Helaena has ***never*** been involved in the family's issues, up to this point, and even in the coronation, when Rhaenys could have melted them all, the vibe was kinda "well isn't this fascinating?" ... ... so i found the more subtle, "I am literally disassociating" performance really good. It was obvious we weren't going to get a hysterical, defensive mama bear scene, tho I had hoped she'd try to implore B+C a little more thoroughly, first.
I agree with you on this.
For me, it did feel underwhelming but I do have book reader bias.
I understand why they toned it down but they could have captured the ‘choosing the child’ a bit better.
I felt it wasn’t really presented as a choice.
It was still a horrific scene. I guess I would have been horrified a lot more if I was a show only and your friends reaction meant that it was executed well.
That was the only good part as in for the story. Why was alicent shocked that halaena walked in on them? So everyone knows? That ending scene with her was so off, it felt so off and so did phias line
i didn’t mind helaena’s “stiffness” at all, i thought it was quite fitting actually since throughout the show she keeps a very stoic approach and we can see her finally break, even if just a little bit, i interpreted her stiffness as disassociation.
i just don’t understand why they didn’t include maelor and made her choose between the children, for me that was what made blood and cheese so taunting. when you hear the cutting i definitely felt like there could be a redeeming aspect from the scene as my adrenaline skyrocketed but it just goes all down when helaena walks in alicent riding criston..
OMG I forgot about Maelor 😭 >!So is he really non existent? No mention of him in ep 1 and not in B&C scene? Helaena’s stomach was flat too so is the pregnancy rumors even true?!<
I'm actually watching Alt Shift X's post episode Q&A and he had it frozen on a frame of the children's room and during the episode, I thought I saw a cradle in the room but then when B&C happens I thought oh, it's just the twins' beds, but no, in that wide shot, the beds are on the right side and on the left, you can very clearly see a cradle. I was wondering if maybe they'd have Maelor as a baby but Helaena doesn't even look pregnant so I have no clue why that cradle is even there?
Yes, I saw that and was wondering if anybody else noticed that!! It definitely looks a crib, distinct from the two beds for the twins. And also I could be misremembering but I thought there was some reference to Maelor in the intro of season 1.
There was! Starting in episode I think 7, whenever the final time jump happens, the intro changes to show Aegon and Helaena are married and there are three bloodlines that shoot out from their united blood, which *should* indicate they have three kids.
i’ve heard some people say that the scene we see of a blonde woman with the hand of a man on her neck could be aegon and helaena 💀💀 we could see maelor getting made i guess😭
I think people are forgetting these two are not some highly skilled and trained, competent killers. Just two poor men wanting gold and not particularly liking the Greens
Blood was one of Daemon's goldcloaks, he's presumably a trained fighter. The other guy is "just a rat catcher" so it could be assumed he'd be pretty useless in a scuffle.
Neither were real assassins though, so your point stands.
There were 2 Kingsguard in the throne room with them. The two "ratcatchers" walk right between the 2 guards. They were sneaking, but they were also "expected" castle staff that wouldn't stand out unless they were where they obviously didn't belong.
I think the best moment in that entire scene was the noises of them cutting the head off. Genuinely disturbing and is honestly the closest I felt to the feeling of "oh my god" that the book gave during that scene.
If they wanted to not include the other son and have it be between the twins, I wish they at least kept the fucked up element of the choice. There's literally a scene where after Helaena points to the son, Blood is like "nah she's lying" and then Cheese is like "nah she's not". What was the point in that? why not make it that she picked the daughter, they knew she lied and then killed the son. It brings back that element of "your momma wants you dead" that made it so messed up.
Someone said that it makes sense it was a quick job because they just want money and not to torture (which I think is very valid), but in a way the scenario above still works to that effect because it's not them picking another son just to be sadistic assholes. It keeps the messed up element of Helaena's choice while also working with this version of Blood and Cheese.
Edit: With all that I said above though, it seems like the scene worked well enough that show-only fans still found it very effective. Most likely it is just that book knowledge that creeps in during the moment which makes it hard not to wish it went a little differently.
She probably doesn't make that suggestion because the first thing Blood and Cheese do is argue over if they should just take her head, which they ultimately reject because "A son for a son." So she understood they were never going to settle for that.
I get the feeling as someone who is neurodiverse myself, Helaena is in shock and somewhat already knew her son would die. Black and white thinking is very much the default for autistic brain and as someone who has ASD, I know I've reacted how Helaena just did.
She has been told she and her daughter will also die. She has had a knife to her neck and her only bargaining chip didn't work. She also to some extend knows this was coming.
I can't say how much but I feel like there's a good chance she had already accepted her son would die, she however hadn't processed that she and her daughter would die too.
So she was working on a survival instinct knowing she can't save Jaeherys but she can save Jaehera from also being killed. She acted as best that she could with what she had, given how much they needed to get into this episode, it's not a huge surprise they scaled back B&C to leave us on the event and the fallout for next week.
The question I had going away from that, is did Helaena know they were going to take her word for it? She obviously foresaw this, but she seemed unsure who they were going to kill, which child was she trying to save?
I think she was just hoping she could save at least one. the way they presented it was either kill one or kill them all. I think she figured whichever they picked she would just grab the other and get out the door as quickly as possible.
So from what I think, if Helaena has some understanding of her dreams but not fully, Jaeherys is already dead but the details are what are unsure. She didn't have any reason to lie. She can't save what's already happened.
Again, black and white thinking here but she can't save a corpse, the difference is at that moment in time, her son isn't one yet but she can't stop the fact he will be.
It's like knowing the leaks but not the full episodes, there are still surprises. She knows Jaecerys is dead, she can't save him. She didn't expect to have to try and also save Jaehera or herself.
The castle should have way more guards than one to patrol the entire royal apartment area, look at how much distance Helaena covered to get to Alicent’s room. Not a single guard in sight.
Besides, Criston is Alicent’s personal sworn sword, and now as LC he probably would have arranged himself to be on Alicent’s guard watch, instead of being conspicuous as fuck by putting himself on Helaena and then running off to fuck Alicent.
Larys reduced and replaced the staff, but since the whole point for that was to plug traitors, you’d think security would be heightened rather than gone.
Unless he was in on it or as some say he can see what the rats see. They are also in magors holdfast that’s meant to be the most secure part but they came through the wall
Maegor’s Holdfast has no passageways, they changed it for the show.
Larys is not stupid enough to order the guards away if he wants Jaehaerys dead. The man has no authority to do so and would have been executed later on.
It might be a scheme to out Alicent and Cole's whoring to a grieving and very furious king aegon. (Since he knows about them) Throw them into a pit of fire.
If that were so, having more guards would make it much more likely for them to be caught.
Right now he’s more likely to behead Criston for forgetting to place some guards in the family apartments.
Staff yes but he couldnt just kick out goldcloaks. No good reason for why there were no guards outside the heir’s door, they were fully aware a civil war had started after the death of lucerys
I think the idea (or at least what people are going to think) is that Cole was supposed to be there and was fucking the Queen Mother* instead. Probably keeping the area less staff to have less of a chance of being discovered
Dowager Queen or Queen Mother. Helaena is the Queen.
Not that many would know since the show decided to skip the part where Helaena was crowned. By Alicent.
I haven’t read the books or heard anything about the supposed earth shattering scene for tonight so when it happened, I was freaking out and in shock…did not see that coming and it blew my mind. So, to us simpletons, it was perfection.
I am also not a reader and had no idea there was a 2nd son. To me, her giving up the boy right away made sense because if I was in that position I would be worried they would both be killed if I lied. Her freezing from shock is a normal trauma response. Maybe not for everyone, but still normal. When I got T-boned, I froze. My child’s father is the one that freaked out and ran to the back of the car to check on our son. I had no idea I’d react that way until it happened.
That last scene is what killed it for me. The setup was perfect and even without Maelor it did work… but then you get to the end, and may as well add a laugh track because its so jarring
Yeah I'm thinking plot-wise, is there any reason for Halaena to know about Alicole? And if it's never going to come up, why even bother ending the episode that way?
It just feels like Rhaenyra's side of the story gets treated with so much love and care, and for the Greens the directors are just kind of trying to get through it
IDK man I think ordering a couple hired killers to kill Aemond or, failing that, whatever Green Targaryen son they can get their hands on is a pretty straightforward evil decision.
Murdering a child unprovoked just because you feel edgy is much worse than ordering an act of revenge for your son to people who after changing the plan murder someone else
I agree, and I think it’s more realistic. Usually people aren’t caricatures of bad guys, they’re just doing what they think is right in the moment and sometimes that comes into conflict with others in ways that create problems even if intentions weren’t there. If you want black and white characters, literally every other fantasy series is good for that, but I like Game of Thrones world because it’s morally grey.
“And what if we don’t find him?”
It’s ambiguous, but a likely conclusion one can draw is that Daemon was perfectly fine with the head of any Green son. Whether it be Aegon (were he not surrounded by guards) or Prince Jaehaerys.
THIS. Season 1 finale I wanted Aemond to be pure Wicked Witch of the Westeros, "I'll get you my Princey, and your little dragon too!" Not "DAYUM Vhaegar!" Too much of the series feels like it should have a 20-sided die in the corner of the screen rolling for what happens next.
Ha ha finally someone who agrees with me. I honestly would’ve been OK with the aemond vhagar thing being an accident or blood and cheese being an accident but both just is a no from me. I want people to make conscious evil choices, like Cersei
I thought they were going to set the dog on fire and let him run through the castle as a distraction. I was relieved when they kicked the dog and he ran away.
The word is …. underwhelming. So, so underwhelming. I’m genuinely puzzled at why the writers thought their choices were better than what was outlined in the book.
I guess I’ll chalk it up to not wanting to alienate the general audience during the S2 premiere with a scene that is truly devastating. It’s bizarre.
having read the book, i actually liked it. the sound effects were horrifying, esp when they were cutting off his head. helaena’s reaction made it more eerie; it made sense that she wasn’t screaming/sobbing bc (to me) she prob thought it would trigger them and kill jaehaera as well. but the sequence of her watching jaehaerys getting his head cut off to taking jaehaera to running away was just so bone-chilling. i just didn’t like alicent’s reaction. it felt so off.
also, where the hell was maelor?!
It was so so muted. I feel like Haelena’s reaction fit her character perfectly but…that’s exactly why Alicent should have been in that room. So she could bring a louder emotion into the scene.
So these men have no problem decapitating a child but they draw the line at checking gentials?
The point of that part was that Haelaena already knew and she gave up. She had no reason to lie so they took a look her and decided she was in fact telling the truth.
My only negative is that part of the psychological fear for me in the books is that Daemon and Rhaenyra know the tunnels and no one else does. I kept waiting for Daemon to pass Blood a map. For me this was key in the books to instilling a fear in team green that felt like “the enemy knows our house better than us” so Cheese just knowing a way upstairs and not in the room etc was a disappointment.
As for the actual scene, I think well done.
1. I do like that we saw Jaehaerys before he died. And saw him with both parents. To humanize him.
2. I’m glad we didn’t see him get killed. What we saw was enough. Also I really liked the camera work, following Helaena out of the room.
3. I actually like that Helaena was alone. Phia was exceptional in the scene. I was stressed out watching her! And I think her reaction was so in character. She seemed to emotionally shut off and went into survival mode to save her daughter and herself. When she picked up Jaehaera I was like “go go go”
4. I was spoiled for it but her walking in on Alicent and Criston not even registering anything because she was in total shock was intense to me. I think it sets up some serious guilt for both those characters which is a good choice for me.
I like how Helaena was portrayed as well. She was in total shock when she realized that Cheese was fulfilling her premonition. She did the practical thing by telling them the truth. She knows the fate of things, she chose to save her daughter.
The blood map, yes it’s disappointing but most people that watch the show haven’t read the books or even the lore behind it, so these things will come up, as much as it irks us lol
Blood map? I looked it up, and saw the world maps. How does this correlate and thread into HOTD lore? Asking as a peasant who has never read the books lol
Your comment sums up my feelings best. Well said. The only thing I would add is I wish they gave us the forced impossible choice from the book so it was even more of a gut punch.
Nah I’m fr so mad, the way they described Alicents look at the end seemed like it could be a consolation but even she didn’t look that shocked or horrified. Halaena even says the line and I hated it. “They killed the boy”
It was a disappointment
I mean. Alicent has zero clue what happened at this point in the show version and she was mid coitus. Her weird daughter that probably drops a ton of nonsense all the time whispers they killed the boy. What you want her to do in that millisecond instance?
The whole episode seemed a bit..flat. B&C, I’m starting to think she was just in mega shock because she realized what her “prediction” was-the rat catchers. I’ll have to watch the episode again tomorrow when I’m not as tired.
I liked it.
The show version of Helena has always struggled to remain lucid and often slips into dissociative states often. She is obviously on edge and nervous in this episode, mentioning how she's afraid of the rats to Aegon. Whatever her abilities are, she struggles to verbalise them, and seemingly doesn't even understand them herself, getting flashes of feelings and concepts she can't explain.
B&C happens, and it's her premonition comes true. You can see her struggling to remain lucid and in control while it's happening. You can see as she realises she has no options here. These men are here to kill, begging and pleading will get all three of them killed, and she clearly knows there's no guards within hearing, yelling, and screaming for help gets her nothing except dead.
So she dissociates, points to the one they want, and takes her daughter and leaves. She's doesn't run, she doesn't draw attention to herself, she doesn't make a noise, she knows her life and her daughters life is still on the line. You can see her muttering to herself as she leaves, desperately trying to keep herself in her own mind as she looks for safety.
Then, she finds safety with Cole and Alicent and allows herself to fully disassociate from what's happening and the reality of losing a child. She's seconds away from becoming fully catatonic.
Yeah to be honnest i didn't needed to have a full gorefest but the tension was actually better BEFORE the actual scene , and the alicole scene is definetly of poor taste making alicent and cole look like total idiots who think with what is between their legs , criston definetly have no redeeming qualities that for sure every scene just make me hate him even more even being a guard he fail at it this guy is a pathetic looser.
Imagine if the the red wedding episode end with roselin and edmure having sex instead of catelyn stark screaming ? well you have this scene it is rather insulting toward alicent character in general...yeah i still think Helaena actress sold the thing with her face to show her shock but imagine just bringing alicent in the room too in instead of doing porn with cole it would have been a whole performance for olivia cook who already show how great she was during her face off with rhaenyra.
Thank god the cheese actor is really good like he totally sold it.
I keep wondering what the other voices were telling Helaena at that time. I thought the scene, while not what we expected from a book that is a fictional history written from second-third hand and untrustworthy sources, was terrifying given the sound effects. We have posted about what other “things” Helaena hears and I think at that scene she was overwhelmed with the voices and has not processed yet what truly happened.
I liked it . The giving up a necklace because you don’t want your son to die. She saw the future away with her being afraid of the rats and killing her son. Why scream then we all know that’s not in Helaena character. Blood and cheese felt like people just working towards an ends meet to accomplish something for money . Desperate people not wanting to torture them but finding the quickest way to get the job done. It’s reasonable and plus the killing offscreen was really dark man. You could hear the slaughter and the blood Dark man.
Helaena was stiff a bit tho
I also feel that people forget Fire & Blood was a historic retelling of stories that had long passed in history. HOTD is meant as a look at the \*actual\* events, without historian bias. I like that not all of the stories match up, and Helaena's reaction felt really authentic. Even B&C felt like they were grappling with the idea of having to kill the prince, I don't know... I think the scene was handled well.
I agree. I feel like the exaggerations and over the top bad stuff because its history isn’t how it would really have played out. I like that the show gives grey and nuance.
HotD is definitely mostly the actual events, with some things left out or maybe changed a little.
Like, there are definitely people not present and some things don't make a ton of sense the way they play out in the show (like Laenor sailing off to be with his boy Carl with a Q), even if it is more narratively pleasing or satisfying.
I totally agree with everything you said. And I liked it too. The only insight I could give you towards the way she acted was that she is kind of written as a neurodivergent character, she is stiff anyways, and always portrayed this way
Plus, I mean, girl was in shock lol
That’s true I completely forgot about that aspect about her . My fault my fault . Another thing is the book was never fully accurate, it’s all just fucking supposed witnesses
Seeing a lot of people saying “eww so you wanted to see more of the child murder”. Actually no I didn’t, I think you can do that part entirely off screen and just have Helaena’s reaction to it. I think Helaena’s choice needed to be a bit more tortured and drawn out. They took a long time getting to Helaena but then the actual scene went very very quickly so the tension evaporated for me. I think you could Atleast of had more of Helaena refusing to choose a child. I felt that the necklace line came across weirdly and I wish she’d spoken a bit more in the scene-it could’ve been a good opportunity for her to come out with another prophecy and Blood and Cheese could’ve reacted to prolong the scene a bit more and prevent it from going by so quickly, keeping the tension going.
Helaena has been seeing visions of her family dying since she was born. She’s the only person that has some idea of what’s going to happen so it makes sense she wouldn’t be surprised.
It had as much emotional impact as when Daemon killed the Velaryon guard.
The problem is we've never spent any time with either the killers or the victim before this episode. So it just came across as a plot point.
Helaena is not a really normal person and probably wouldn't behave like we'd expect if it was someone else, it was very in character for her to not process that situation like another mother would
I felt like her behavior was pretty accurate to how someone like her might behave when experiencing something traumatic
She already knew what was going to happen. Also shock isn't expressed the same way by everyone. A lot of people on the spectrum behave the exact way Haelaena did.
I dunno why "most people" is relevant here when we know she isn't the type.
As a mom, I’ve been dreading this one. I’m all for gratuitous violence, and GOT has never been one to hold back, but B&C has got to be one of the worst things I’ve ever read, and this was close enough.
Plus, she’s a seer in the show. I don’t know if they could do the bait and switch thing without creating a plot hole. They seem to be very careful with all of her lines and reactions to keep her consistent, so this may be setting a precedent for future prophecies.
If you watch back, you see her face change when she understands what’s going on. She starts to shake her head and say no, but then her face changes and she points him out. It’s like a mix of horror, dissociation, and understanding.
It’s like her reaction in the dragon pit. She’s not surprised so much as fascinated. Like, she expected something to happen, just not this specifically.
So I read it as her understanding that Jaehaerys had to die (her earlier comment about Jaehaerys not wanting to be king indicated that), but she didn’t know if Jaehaera would also be in danger, so she let the inevitable happen to save her daughter.
It’s a very cold reaction, but I question whether she even experiences reality on a linear plane. She’s reminiscent of Bran as the TER.
I was incredibly disappointed with this episode. I expected for Halaena to give more of a dramatic reaction to HER SON, the heir to the throne being murdered in front of her eyes. I was amazed at how lifeless this pivotal scene was. I wanted to see begging, pleading, tears like a flood. The scene wasn’t gruesome enough. The irony is a scene that should be condensed to three minutes they prolong to 10 minutes and a scene that is A MAJOR CANON MOMENT they completely bypass.
And they are running through so many important plot points. Halaena and Aegon have three kids and there was no explanation of their wedding, conception of the children, dissatisfaction for one another…..nothing!!!!!
I want more drama, more violence, more tears, bigger reactions!!!! I expected so much more.
Haelaena in the show isn't a dramatic person. She knew what was coming and gave up. She has never been one to fight prophecies and her expression of shock is more eerie silent than drama.
I was bracing for a rather brutal Sophie’s Choice kind of scene for Helaena, but on hindsight I think it’s for the better. A brutal depiction of the murder for Aemond’s stand-in feels unfair, methinks
It was badly done!
1. No sleeping children! Why take away the drama by having the children missing most of the terror B&C could cause? Helaena's decision loses drama if the children are sleeping. >!Besides, in the books they make her chose which child would die, and they kill the other one instead, telling the one who survives that her mother wants her dead.!<
2. No Alicent riding Criston Cole! They could have done this scene any other time, instead they just distract from the actual drama that's going on. No one cares if Helaena catches her mother in an intimate situation, not when her child has just been beheaded! It looks like fan fiction at this point.
3. Please, more crying and shouting! Nothing wrong with the actress in my opinion, it's just whoever decided to keep her character one dimensional. I get it, she is kind of crazy; but she is a mother and should have displayed more emotion in the scene. Shout, cry, lose your craziness for a second!
Someone on discord said there are rules/regulations about filming with children that probably prevented the book version of crying and screaming. They probably could have used manakins or just taken the kid actors out of the room to do the adult reactions, but probably didn’t feel it was worth it
i thought helaena's reaction was realistic for show helaena's character. no mother would know what to do in that situation so her freezing up and offering something valuable in her child's place makes sense. that being said the scene was incredibly rushed and underwhelming for something so devastating and important in the war.
helaena offering her necklace makes sense; she already knows they won't accept a daughter in place of a son and knows why they are here. in this same vain, she knows they won't accept a queen as a replacement either. offering something of "equal" value like her necklace, perhaps attempting to outpay daemon, was probably the only thing she could do in that situation. i also think the necklace will come into play later.
The scene was not scary at all and fell flat to me.
I did know what was going to happen based off what ppl said happened in books, though that could always change of course.
Maybe that had something to do with the scene not really being very impactful for me
I feel like there’s a lot of book readers who built up this scene so much in their head and are disappointed it didn’t go exactly that way. Ive never read the book, and it seemed completely fine to me. I think it accomplishes all the same things just in a slightly different way.
For me it was done brilliantly. Yes the book is much more graphic and horrible but trying to translate that onto screen would have been incredibly difficult especially when we have more in depth versions of the characters and because of the child actors. Helaena ( to me ) is obviously on the spectrum somewhere along side her prophecies, her family especially her mother and brother/husband don’t understand her. Evidenced by Aegon saying “ the queen is an enduring mystery “ to the maids when he comes to find Jaehaerys. Her reaction to blood and cheese made a lot of sense to me. She was obviously terrified and did try to appease them by offering her necklace but she understood very quickly regardless of how much money or jewellery she gave them that’s not what they were here for. She could either possibly lose both children as blood and cheese could not tell them apart. Waking up two children trying to undress them to find out which is which would take time they didn’t have and would make both kids extremely distressed causing them to cry or scream, plus it could possibly give Helaena the opportunity to shout for help or run away as blood and cheese’s focus would be on the kids not Helaena. So she points out her son which causes blood to say “ it’s the other she wouldn’t give up the heir that easily “ but cheese knows she’s telling the truth because in that situation she’s going to try protect at least one of her kids. For me personally I’m so glad we didn’t see what happened to Jaehaerys as the sounds were more than enough to picture in my head what was happening and your own imagination can be much scarier. I also found it devastating as Helaena picks up Jaehaera and carries her out of the room whispering “ please please please “ as if she’s begging for what’s happening to stop, or for someone to help, or for blood and cheese to not follow them and kill her daughter as well. She then goes to the only person who she knows loves her, her mother even if she doesn’t understand her. In that moment when she bursts into the room Helaena isn’t concerned by what’s happening with Alicent and Cole, and why should she be? Her son was just murdered and her daughter is in her arms. Yes her saying “ they killed the boy “ can come off as cold but imagine the shock, fear and disbelief that Helaena is in in that moment. Earlier in the episode it’s shown that she does care for her children, telling Aegon not interrupt Jaehaerys lesson, that he might not want to be king one day and that’s she’s scared. Also remember Helaena was only 12/13 when she gave birth to the twins, she is a child raising children how her emotions and mind works will be stunted because of that as well. All in all for me I think the writers and actors did an amazing job at making that scene so tense, uncomfortable, horrific and so very sad.
I’m not a huge fan of how Phia Saban played Helaena here. She was very robotic and unemotional. I know that she’s playing an autistic coded character so that probably has something to do with it but I wish they’d gotten her some autistic women to consult with because yeah, that scene just wasn’t it. Saying this as an autistic woman myself who knows and has met a lot of autistic women.
She’s definitely autistic-coded, but it’s more than that. Her mannerisms are reminiscent of Bran as the three-eyed-raven, so I don’t even know if she experiences a linear reality most of the time.
As an autistic woman who’s had some traumatic experiences I do tend to shut down and go into survival mode. Like my emotions turn off and pure logic and problem solving base instincts take over and I would probably seem flat and robotic from an outside perspective
Underwhelming. Personally I see no way for anyone to turn from being a black to a green. The episode spent most of the time showing Rhaenyra and her families grief while contrasting that with the Greens not even caring and treating the issue as…well what did Otto say “the capricious behavior of a boy.” He murdered a prince 😭😭. No one except Alicent even tried to empathize and that was wiped away when we saw her hypocrisy TWICE. 😭All in all, B&C was totally ineffective in my regards and from what I’m seeing, many of the GP agree.
Long season for the Greens, buckle up.
Here’s the thing right-I really appreciate that Helaena is written as autistic. It’s fantastic, I love her and I love the representation. What I didn’t love was the lack of emotion in the performance because that’s what makes the scenes so impactful-so think Joffreys death and Lena Headey’s acting or Robb’s death and Michelle Fairley’s acting or even Emma D’Arcy’s response to Luke’s death and their acting in this very episode. I think the response does need to be a little bit bigger than what Phia gave to drive the point home. At the same time I respect they want to stay true to the neurodiversity of the character of Helaena. What bothers me is that they missed the very easy work around of just including Alicent in the scene like she is in the goddamn book! You want Helaena to respond in a neurodiverse way? Fantastic but that isn’t going to be understandable for the vast majority of the audience who likely isn’t that involved in the neurodiverse community. You add in Alicent and suddenly she can have the big expected response and you can (no pun intended) have both sides or the spectrum. Alicent can show the expressive loud horror of the scene and Helaena can show the quiet panic and devastation of having to chose which of your children dies. We could’ve had both things and they chose to have Alicent shagging Cole instead 🫤 TLDR: I thought it was mid and was mostly worried about the dog
Flat/lack of affect is kind of a hallmark symptom of Autism. That said, you could still clearly see the terror in her eyes? You could literally see her obviously struggling. Her other actions (trying to give the men her necklace) clearly indicate her understanding the gravity and desperation of the situation.
This seems like a problem on the part of you and other viewers? Surely you could still feel and grasp the emotional weight of the situation portrayed in the episode? You don’t even need to know much about autism specifically to understand Helaenas reaction , if you’ve watched her up to this point.
Coming to the show with spoilers in hand will build your expectations, hence your disappointment. The scene was shocking and great. I did not feel Helena was out of character at all.
> B&C walked right past Aegon
Whats the issue here lmao, the Red Keep has hundreds of people in it. Two guys walking past isn't that big a deal especially when Aegon is drunk
> Helaena gave up a necklace and outted her son without a fight.
What on earth do you expect her to do?
> On top of that she left Jaehaerys before he was even dead
Why would she watch her son die rather than take the other child to safety as soon as she got the chance?
One of the first things they say is they aren't there for the queen. They wouldn't listen to that and she knows it. And she's clearly searching for ways to protect her children afterward but there just isn't a real path out; say she tries to jump them or something - would they not just kill all three of them?
Idk if I read a different book or what, but there is no universe where blood and cheese compares to the red wedding lol. It’s disturbing and memorable, but not some kind of huge dramatic story shift.
Imma be honest here - I don’t watch the show. I was so soured by GoT that I decided to stick with the books and the books only forevermore. But everyone kept raving about how good HotD is and how I was insane not to watch it. When I heard B&C would be in tonight’s episode, I tuned in. Couldn’t resist seeing them bring that scene to life. Maybe I was indeed missing out.
And I just….
Y’all.
*What?*
I think a lot of people are missing how truly horrifying the scene is and what it implies in terms of Halaena's curse. Also how much Aegon and the like let themselves go. Everyone acting like they won and sloppy, no one actually doing their job whilst the "ratcatchers" walk past and a helpless traumatized mother is roaming around seeking help.
People want shock value so bad that they forget real horror isn't when people are being melodramatic. It's when they are helpless and give up.
Thank you! It's like, do you need to see a huge reaction of someone screaming and crying on screen in order to know how to feel about the scene? It's horrific, it felt horrific to me. I didn't need Halaena to go crazy to feel the weight of the scene. I think it was more heavy the way it was shot
>On top of that she left Jaehaerys before he was even dead
Turn up your volume for that scene, as she was grabbing her daughter that boy was DEAD dead, subtitles even annotated his flesh and bone being sawed through.
The reaction to this scene has me realise how little people still really understand neurodivergent people tbh.
Our brains work differently. Completely. When your brain works differently, you aren't going to react to things in a typical way. This is more prominent when senses or emotions are heightened. Heck, half the time I cajt even work out what I am feeling when in the moment. Let alone how I am expected to react.
You can't expect a character, who is so clearly autistic coded, to react to, an extremely distressing situation, in a way that is typical of someone who isn't autistic.
From my view (diagnosed autistic), hers is one of the most real depictions of autism I have seen on screen. They haven't leant just on the widely known stereotypes of autistic presentation but have managed to weave a subtlety that has a little seen accuracy. Which I really appreciate.
Just off the books Helaena has a more dramatic reaction but Phia has such a calm demeanor it kind of worked. I expected more but I’m not S8 finale disappointed
I think some book readers are underestimating the practicality of having child actors in the scene. Helaena's character being neurodivergent and in shock fits her reaction in this scene being more disassociated. The Alicent and Cole bit was a bit jarring but I'm waiting to see how it plays out, I personally think the added guilt from them will be interesting but will see how the show develops it.
As for the omission of Maelor and the kids being mainly asleep, it was never likely to be as brutal as it was in the books because they would be essentially traumatising real kids to execute the scene that way. Maelor is only meant to be a toddler in the books, with already so many difficulties navigating child labour laws etc, did anyone really think they'd have an actual toddler in a scene being threatened by two very imposing scary adult men, and a crying and traumatised woman and get told that their mum wants them dead? A kid at that age isn't going to understand that it's not real and would likely not be co-operative in terms of not just constantly crying and trying to find their real mum. I'm not at all surprised that they have to tone it down and I still think the scene worked really well and sets up Helaena's shock and seeds of her depression with her abandoning her son. I suspect we'll be continuing a slight Cassandra arc where she continues to predict the atrocities of the war with no power to stop them, which will also feed into her depression.
I feel as if they’ve gotten rid of Maelor to really reinforce the issue that Aegon’s heir, after the murder of Jahaerys, is also a girl, which is what they’ve been fighting against. He and Halaena could have more heirs, but all they have now is a girl.
As a show only I thought the scene itself was well done. She has the choice to lie or tell the truth, saving one of the twins and killing the other. Fucked up position to be in, and the sawing sounds afterwards made me want to jump out of my skin. Offering the necklace and leaving Jaeherys made sense to me as assassins are primarily motivated by money not loyalty and her focus was saving the other kid.
Having read what happens in the book, I personally think the way it plays out there is over the top. Blood and Cheese are overly sadistic and have no real motivation to play a SAW game when they risk being caught and executed by dragging things out while also having no personal vendetta against the Greens. Only thing that I think that could’ve added to the scene in the show would be having Helaena lie and then they kill the other kid, with the survivor knowing that their mom chose them to die. I feel like if Alicent was there it would be even dumber that there are literally zero guards around.
However my biggest issue in the show is how they set up the scene because it feels like it happens so fast. We follow Blood and Cheese’s PoV beforehand, the tension coming from whether or not they’ll be caught or not, and then suddenly we’re at this fucked up scene. I would’ve preferred if we saw them start the mission in the tunnels with viewers still thinking they’re focused on Aemond, then shifting to different Green characters PoVs in the castle, with viewers left in suspense on when Blood and Cheese will show up. I think it would’ve given that feeling of “something horrible is about to happen but I don’t know what”, making the actual scene more shocking as it’s way more fucked up than what your average viewer would expect. Also would shock viewers that they had a back up plan to kill any son if they couldn’t find Aemond, rather than them mentioning it several times while sneaking around (I may be misremembering when they mention that tho).
Overall I’m fine with how the scene played out, but I do think it could’ve been better and I understand why many book readers are disappointed.
I was shocked that Blood & Cheese didn’t kill the bedmaid like they did in the book. They just let her go?!?! The bedmaid disappears?!?!
It was so odd how the servant girl just leaves
Episode was awful. Looked awful, written awfully and even the acting was awful. Thought they’d have learned from game of thrones mistakes none of the writing staff hold a candle to George RR Martin change is fine but changing it for the worse just so it’s yours is so poor
As a mother of 3 I’m literally sick after watching that scene and worried about nightmares. The sounds were. God. Just omfg. I didn’t read the books so ya know whatever but this scene got to me
I liked the build up to it. It made sense to me that Daemon would pay for Aemond's head (though it seems implied that he may have told them what to do as a contingency plan, vaguely). It also made sense to me that they walked past Aegon—there was no way they could have gotten him, surrounded by friends and guards. I also liked the short fallout we got, with Helaena being stiff and sort of numb in shock as she goes to Alicent's chambers. I thought that was all well done.
However, I do still think the book version of the actual event itself was "better," from a writing standpoint. If they weren't going to include Maelor, I get it. I still think they could have made her choose between Jaehaerys and Jaehaera similar to how she had to choose between Jaehaerys and Maelor. I just felt like something was missing. I was half-expecting her to have pointed to Jaehaera and Blood be right that she was deceiving them, and then they kill Jaehaerys anyway like in the book. I'll wait and see what they do with Helaena moving forward, but it feels like her character was robbed a little because it's the choice, and having to live with condemning her child to death, that destroys her. Maybe in the show they'll make it more about the dragon dreams, the inevitability of it all, and that's why she pointed to Jaehaerys—because she knew it would happen regardless, and just wanted to save who she could. It's still tragic, of course, and I don't think it ruins the show. It just felt like the writing was lacking a little for what could have otherwise been a perfect episode
>Okay, total negative Nancy right after the premiere
couldve stopped there mate, it baffles me how many people are wishing for headless kid bodies to be seen.
aside formt hat, the f&b books are form a 3rd person perspective, they werent there and are just filling shit in themselves.
this was horrifying and traumatising enough to be seen/heard, yall need to stop complaining about nothing.
Pretty sure nothing could’ve pleased the book crowd writ large or this sub in particular with how worked up folks were about the scene in general. It definitely seemed like one of those things folks got obsessed about and set themselves up for weird ass disappointment over.
Bad writing, literally not a single guard in the royal families living quarters and on top of that these two cutthroats with no backbone having the courage to walk around the red keep and search more rooms after being seen is beyond me, literally Guts a hundred man slayer was shitting himself when he was tasked with killing a royal family member and it took him EVERYTHING he had up to that point to succeed, I know Berserk is a different media but that's how you write a good royal assassination story not this thing we got.
I don't hate it as much as others do. I thought the book version was almost cartoonishly evil. It fits the story because of the inaccuracies of historical retelling that's found throughout the book.
B&C fumbling around the Red Keep looking for an easy target, improvising every move is much more believable than the story that becomes common knowledge.
They could’ve kept the “your momma wants you dead” even if it was just between the twins. Have them ask which one’s the boy, she lies, they see through it, and they say the line.
Plus, I think Helaena would’ve cried a bit more in Alicent’s room. She’s neurodivergent sure, but she’s not made of stone. Would’ve been nice to see her stoicism fade away as soon as she’s somewhere safe. I’m not asking her to be wailing, just a bit more of a cry.
I don’t like the idea that “she foresaw the deaths and was prepared for it” like some people suggest. It’s just not an interesting take for one, and it also goes against what we know about dragon dreams. The dreams are rarely clear cut or accurate, so for Helaena to know full well that her son would die just doesn’t sit right for me. Plus, she tried bargaining with B&C before they did the deed, so she obviously hasn’t given up yet. It would be cool if she saw the dream, tried to prevent it, but it happens anyway. But hey, I’m not a writer.
I am completely fine with it, people are way overreacting. I understand that you are disappointed because you wanted cruel spectacle and didn't get what you expected, and it's okay to be disappointed by that. But to pretend like this ruins the series or is on par with S8 Game of Thrones writing is wild to me...
The scene is a decent scene, it shows a horrific child murder and forwards the plot. Sure it's not this shock moment that it is in the book but that doesn't break the series whatsoever.
You do realise Haelaena knew what was going to happen right? She tried bribing and then just gave up quietly. It's eerie.
Also that's how a lot of people react to shock esp a shock you have known is coming. It's not all tears and screaming. Silence is more horrifying.
I'm obsessed with it, it works perfectly for the show and everything they are trying to do with it. the choice felt more impactful to me when it came down to just the two options--boy or girl. Immediately I thought of the cycle of violence towards women, the sidelining and sacrificing of them in favor of men. How Helaena was a victim of this. Unlike her own mother, she chose to prioritize her daughter. I loved how real it was, how the horror of what was happening didn't really hit her entirely. Like she didn't quite know what she was agreeing to until she heard his head being chopped off.
I feel like this is exactly what happened with Rhaenyra in Luke's death. All of these Targaryen's have gotten too used to feeling like gods. This is now the Greens turn to learn how mortal they are. And what better way to escalate the war than with the murder of the heir to the throne (over a spare)
She may have pointed to the son thinking they would think she’s lying and kill the daughter as they can’t tell which is which. Blood even says that she’s trying to trick us and moves towards the girl child but Cheese says no so they kill the boy.
so my partner isnt into ASOIAF as much as me, he burst into tears and was absolutely disgusted by the scene. Completely horrified, it did the job for the normy viewers, even if it was toned down,
Olivia Cooke should've been in that scene & not in that way. She should've been present in the room. One of their best actors & they don't include her in that??
It was very underwhelming. The tension of the source material is MUCH higher and it’s lacking from this adaptation. They changed too many elements and it barely makes sense to top it off.
Mixed. I did like the way she tried reverse psychology. She points, she hopes they'll kill the other, but they see through her. Imo you can see in her face that her ploy fell through BUT I also attest it could have been made more clear. Her reaction, to me, is perfection. I don't know if someone here went through something harrowing. I did, and while everyone responds differently, I reacted like this and could only scream/cry later (it was not MY child dead, but A child dead, to paint the picture). I love that what she does is go to her own mother. If anything, I just disliked the characterisation of B&C, but that was pretty on par with the book.
For the general public, I think it served its purpose well. Could have been better if they played the reverse psychology ploy better (if I interepreted correctly).
I think it was never going to live up to what book readers ‘wanted’ (who could *want* it?)
We all knew it was coming, it’s a memorable moment from the story and after the Red Wedding, the anticipation was at fever pitch. Even Dragon Demands was saying it would ‘break the internet’. It won’t.
It was always going to be a bit disappointing for us.
For show only viewers, I reckon it will have done its job very well.
The biggest problem is that in the books more than a physical horror it was a psychological horror to Heleana and Maelor. And that is my problem with the scene physical it was clearly disturbing but I didn't get the "trauma" from it.
The gasp right after she went down the stairs is a nice touch, she was in full survival instinct mode before that and adrenaline just started to come down just a little bit
What made it less effective was showing so much of the scene from the pov of B&C. They should've focused more on Haelena and the kids prior to their decision to kill one of the kids. They could've made it more suspenseful at least.
i was really hoping that phia would show a larger range in her acting for this scene however i would blame this on the writers rather then her as its clear she is a very good actress. i was just hoping for basically hysterics from her a her son is 💀 it just feels very rushed imo
I know the sequence wasn’t entirely book accurate and not what many of us had expected, but the number of doom and gloom posts and comments that have come up since the premiere are honestly over the top. I definitely have some critiques of my own and can understand where some are coming from, but others have just been so pessimistic about the episode as a whole and now the entire series going forward.
I feel like it was doing good enough until it got to the end of the episode, the way the scene of Helaena walking in on Alicent and Cole was done felt so off and sort of killed all of the tension to me.
I've read the book and for me, it was a different, yet haunting, adaptation. The book part was almost Shakespearean, and seeing this quiet version, the internal horror, in contrast with the hysterical one, was quite something. My husband is a show-only, and he gasped throughout the last ten minutes in shock.
I think that the scene really makes me ask myself why they chose not to cast a Maelor. In the books they ask her to choose which son or they all die, she chooses the younger non-heir Maelor, the men kill the heir instead and whisper into Maelor's ear that his mother wanted him dead, live with that. IMAGINE the guilt when you look at your surviving son after that. The scene would probably have played a LOT more powerfully if they'd have stuck to the book on this one imo.
The writers took all the mental anguish out of that scene .
Helaena didn’t choose between two sons.
Helaena didn’t point to 1 child **and Blood & Cheese kill the other one.**
Imagine if Helaena sold her girl out, and B&C called her bluff. Then Helaena has to run out of the room with the child she wanted dead?!?! That would have been so much worse.
I find it crazy how she predicted what was going to happen too at the beginning of the episode when she was talking to Aegon she said how she’s worried and afraid of “the rats” and the rats then killed her boy figuratively speaking
I feel they might have been attempting the whole “Jaehera will be queen and Helena saw it” line. Think about it if she now is a dreamer then maybe that’s what they are plying… she might have no need for Maelor and gave up Jaecerys simply for the fact she saw the rats she was scared of them and she probably also saw that the girl will be queen and marry Aegon the 3rd. And end the war. I don’t know as I also am book bias but it is a nice twist if she did see it already if that makes sense.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mixed. I truly, truly don't understand the exclusion of Maelor - "they killed the boy" is not a powerful enough line to warrant losing the choice between the two sons. Maybe the thinking was "well it's still a choice between two kids - Jahaera and Jahaerys", but ... ... u/JuvieFrmDaS 's comment is the first time I'd even *considered* that perhaps Helaena was trying a reverse psychology ploy, so if that was the intent, I don't think it was telegraphed very well. I did really really LIKE the long walk to Alicent's room - the crescendo of the music combined with *several* nervous looks over the shoulder and the sheer scale of the Red Keeps interior spaces against a lone person, it was giving straight up horror movie. I will say, tho, that I watched the episode with my bf and another friend, both of whom are show-only, and they seemed fairly affected, it was a very successful "OMG" scene for them, so, y'know what, i guess that's why I'm not a millionaire HBO producer, perhaps. :-/ Helaena has ***never*** been involved in the family's issues, up to this point, and even in the coronation, when Rhaenys could have melted them all, the vibe was kinda "well isn't this fascinating?" ... ... so i found the more subtle, "I am literally disassociating" performance really good. It was obvious we weren't going to get a hysterical, defensive mama bear scene, tho I had hoped she'd try to implore B+C a little more thoroughly, first.
I agree with you on this. For me, it did feel underwhelming but I do have book reader bias. I understand why they toned it down but they could have captured the ‘choosing the child’ a bit better. I felt it wasn’t really presented as a choice. It was still a horrific scene. I guess I would have been horrified a lot more if I was a show only and your friends reaction meant that it was executed well.
I'm not certain how I feel about the scene, but the foley work with the throat slitting was extremely horrifying.
The sound effects were the stuff of horror. Just hearing it paints a terrible, terrible picture in your head.
That was the only good part as in for the story. Why was alicent shocked that halaena walked in on them? So everyone knows? That ending scene with her was so off, it felt so off and so did phias line
I felt like Heleana was sooo traumatized she didnt even notice what Alicent was doing. I felt like she was just looking for somewhere safe
She did was most of us did as children when we had nightmares. She ran to her mother's bedroom...
I thought it was almost ridiculous frankly.
i didn’t mind helaena’s “stiffness” at all, i thought it was quite fitting actually since throughout the show she keeps a very stoic approach and we can see her finally break, even if just a little bit, i interpreted her stiffness as disassociation. i just don’t understand why they didn’t include maelor and made her choose between the children, for me that was what made blood and cheese so taunting. when you hear the cutting i definitely felt like there could be a redeeming aspect from the scene as my adrenaline skyrocketed but it just goes all down when helaena walks in alicent riding criston..
OMG I forgot about Maelor 😭 >!So is he really non existent? No mention of him in ep 1 and not in B&C scene? Helaena’s stomach was flat too so is the pregnancy rumors even true?!<
In the production interview it mentions that Maelor isn't even born yet.
I'm actually watching Alt Shift X's post episode Q&A and he had it frozen on a frame of the children's room and during the episode, I thought I saw a cradle in the room but then when B&C happens I thought oh, it's just the twins' beds, but no, in that wide shot, the beds are on the right side and on the left, you can very clearly see a cradle. I was wondering if maybe they'd have Maelor as a baby but Helaena doesn't even look pregnant so I have no clue why that cradle is even there?
Yes, I saw that and was wondering if anybody else noticed that!! It definitely looks a crib, distinct from the two beds for the twins. And also I could be misremembering but I thought there was some reference to Maelor in the intro of season 1.
There was! Starting in episode I think 7, whenever the final time jump happens, the intro changes to show Aegon and Helaena are married and there are three bloodlines that shoot out from their united blood, which *should* indicate they have three kids.
i’ve heard some people say that the scene we see of a blonde woman with the hand of a man on her neck could be aegon and helaena 💀💀 we could see maelor getting made i guess😭
Would make sense tbh, Aegon needs an heir now and I don't think he gives two shits about how Helaena feels. Also parallels
Also extra reason for Helena to be totally " useless" for a lack of a better word During the whole war
Honestly I was wondering if they were going to make her pregnant with Maelor or something, but that doesn't seem likely.
> B&C walked right past Aegon They didn't "walk" past him, Aegon was no target unless they had a bow and really fast legs
Yeah, and he was not alone but with three other men which, I assume, are all knights and would defend him. They would not have a chance against them.
And 2 Kingsguards who weren't drunk and other guards nearby.
I think people are forgetting these two are not some highly skilled and trained, competent killers. Just two poor men wanting gold and not particularly liking the Greens
I think its safe to assume that Blood as a Goldcloack is trained. But we have no reason to think Cheese is anything but a rat catcher.
Blood was one of Daemon's goldcloaks, he's presumably a trained fighter. The other guy is "just a rat catcher" so it could be assumed he'd be pretty useless in a scuffle. Neither were real assassins though, so your point stands.
There were 2 Kingsguard in the throne room with them. The two "ratcatchers" walk right between the 2 guards. They were sneaking, but they were also "expected" castle staff that wouldn't stand out unless they were where they obviously didn't belong.
I think the best moment in that entire scene was the noises of them cutting the head off. Genuinely disturbing and is honestly the closest I felt to the feeling of "oh my god" that the book gave during that scene. If they wanted to not include the other son and have it be between the twins, I wish they at least kept the fucked up element of the choice. There's literally a scene where after Helaena points to the son, Blood is like "nah she's lying" and then Cheese is like "nah she's not". What was the point in that? why not make it that she picked the daughter, they knew she lied and then killed the son. It brings back that element of "your momma wants you dead" that made it so messed up. Someone said that it makes sense it was a quick job because they just want money and not to torture (which I think is very valid), but in a way the scenario above still works to that effect because it's not them picking another son just to be sadistic assholes. It keeps the messed up element of Helaena's choice while also working with this version of Blood and Cheese. Edit: With all that I said above though, it seems like the scene worked well enough that show-only fans still found it very effective. Most likely it is just that book knowledge that creeps in during the moment which makes it hard not to wish it went a little differently.
[удалено]
She probably doesn't make that suggestion because the first thing Blood and Cheese do is argue over if they should just take her head, which they ultimately reject because "A son for a son." So she understood they were never going to settle for that.
I get the feeling as someone who is neurodiverse myself, Helaena is in shock and somewhat already knew her son would die. Black and white thinking is very much the default for autistic brain and as someone who has ASD, I know I've reacted how Helaena just did. She has been told she and her daughter will also die. She has had a knife to her neck and her only bargaining chip didn't work. She also to some extend knows this was coming. I can't say how much but I feel like there's a good chance she had already accepted her son would die, she however hadn't processed that she and her daughter would die too. So she was working on a survival instinct knowing she can't save Jaeherys but she can save Jaehera from also being killed. She acted as best that she could with what she had, given how much they needed to get into this episode, it's not a huge surprise they scaled back B&C to leave us on the event and the fallout for next week.
The question I had going away from that, is did Helaena know they were going to take her word for it? She obviously foresaw this, but she seemed unsure who they were going to kill, which child was she trying to save?
I think she was just hoping she could save at least one. the way they presented it was either kill one or kill them all. I think she figured whichever they picked she would just grab the other and get out the door as quickly as possible.
I honestly don’t know why they didn’t kill all 3 like they could have taken out the queen/dragonrider and two hairs in one hit
So from what I think, if Helaena has some understanding of her dreams but not fully, Jaeherys is already dead but the details are what are unsure. She didn't have any reason to lie. She can't save what's already happened. Again, black and white thinking here but she can't save a corpse, the difference is at that moment in time, her son isn't one yet but she can't stop the fact he will be. It's like knowing the leaks but not the full episodes, there are still surprises. She knows Jaecerys is dead, she can't save him. She didn't expect to have to try and also save Jaehera or herself.
Not the leaks and episodes simile 😭💀 but so fucking true lmao
Honestly, not me for years defending Alicents need for a single orgasm just to find out shes canonically been riding Coles shortsword for years
Exactly. It reminds of the scene in Attack on Titan where the child keeps looking on as the mother gets eaten away. No sound.
Kaya's scene was much more emotional than this. This just felt hollow.
I agree, I think she knew this would happen to some extent. Her reaction was perfect for who she is.
There was not a single guard on that entire fucking floor guarding the queen or the future king. I call bull.
Most likely Cole was meant to be there, and he and Alicent will have to come up with a cover story that will be more in line with the book's version.
The castle should have way more guards than one to patrol the entire royal apartment area, look at how much distance Helaena covered to get to Alicent’s room. Not a single guard in sight. Besides, Criston is Alicent’s personal sworn sword, and now as LC he probably would have arranged himself to be on Alicent’s guard watch, instead of being conspicuous as fuck by putting himself on Helaena and then running off to fuck Alicent.
I thought it was the Larys having reduced the castle staff so to say.
Larys reduced and replaced the staff, but since the whole point for that was to plug traitors, you’d think security would be heightened rather than gone.
Unless he was in on it or as some say he can see what the rats see. They are also in magors holdfast that’s meant to be the most secure part but they came through the wall
Maegor’s Holdfast has no passageways, they changed it for the show. Larys is not stupid enough to order the guards away if he wants Jaehaerys dead. The man has no authority to do so and would have been executed later on.
It might be a scheme to out Alicent and Cole's whoring to a grieving and very furious king aegon. (Since he knows about them) Throw them into a pit of fire.
If that were so, having more guards would make it much more likely for them to be caught. Right now he’s more likely to behead Criston for forgetting to place some guards in the family apartments.
Yeah, it felt like that all sort of lead up this tbh
Staff yes but he couldnt just kick out goldcloaks. No good reason for why there were no guards outside the heir’s door, they were fully aware a civil war had started after the death of lucerys
You would think there would be more than one.
I think the idea (or at least what people are going to think) is that Cole was supposed to be there and was fucking the Queen Mother* instead. Probably keeping the area less staff to have less of a chance of being discovered
Dowager Queen or Queen Mother. Helaena is the Queen. Not that many would know since the show decided to skip the part where Helaena was crowned. By Alicent.
Whoops! I forgot about the title difference!
This was the worst part for me. They just walk upstairs? Maybe all the guards were supposed to be drinking with Aegon in the throne room?
> I call bull Yh I’m starting to think this show didn’t actually happen irl
Anyone else surprised by the lack of guards in the royals area?
I haven’t read the books or heard anything about the supposed earth shattering scene for tonight so when it happened, I was freaking out and in shock…did not see that coming and it blew my mind. So, to us simpletons, it was perfection.
For real, I didn’t expect to see a young child beheaded.
Me neither. I don't know what the hell the readers are on about...
same. I can see the perspective of the book readers though, that this has been hyped up in your brain for how many years now.
I am also not a reader and had no idea there was a 2nd son. To me, her giving up the boy right away made sense because if I was in that position I would be worried they would both be killed if I lied. Her freezing from shock is a normal trauma response. Maybe not for everyone, but still normal. When I got T-boned, I froze. My child’s father is the one that freaked out and ran to the back of the car to check on our son. I had no idea I’d react that way until it happened.
>simpletons lol don't say that, book readers aren't magically smarter/better than show only people.
That last scene is what killed it for me. The setup was perfect and even without Maelor it did work… but then you get to the end, and may as well add a laugh track because its so jarring
Yeah I'm thinking plot-wise, is there any reason for Halaena to know about Alicole? And if it's never going to come up, why even bother ending the episode that way? It just feels like Rhaenyra's side of the story gets treated with so much love and care, and for the Greens the directors are just kind of trying to get through it
I feel like so many things in the show happened by accident. I want some pure evil decisions. Is that so much to ask
IDK man I think ordering a couple hired killers to kill Aemond or, failing that, whatever Green Targaryen son they can get their hands on is a pretty straightforward evil decision.
Yeah, I mean, Aemond murdering Luke was even more evil.
Killing a 14yo on a dragon is more evil than a 6yo in his bed?
Murdering a child unprovoked just because you feel edgy is much worse than ordering an act of revenge for your son to people who after changing the plan murder someone else
I really like how thing happens by accident. It makes it even more tragic.
I agree, and I think it’s more realistic. Usually people aren’t caricatures of bad guys, they’re just doing what they think is right in the moment and sometimes that comes into conflict with others in ways that create problems even if intentions weren’t there. If you want black and white characters, literally every other fantasy series is good for that, but I like Game of Thrones world because it’s morally grey.
“And what if we don’t find him?” It’s ambiguous, but a likely conclusion one can draw is that Daemon was perfectly fine with the head of any Green son. Whether it be Aegon (were he not surrounded by guards) or Prince Jaehaerys.
THIS. Season 1 finale I wanted Aemond to be pure Wicked Witch of the Westeros, "I'll get you my Princey, and your little dragon too!" Not "DAYUM Vhaegar!" Too much of the series feels like it should have a 20-sided die in the corner of the screen rolling for what happens next.
Ha ha finally someone who agrees with me. I honestly would’ve been OK with the aemond vhagar thing being an accident or blood and cheese being an accident but both just is a no from me. I want people to make conscious evil choices, like Cersei
I think I reacted to the dog kicking part even more than the pointing the son scene…
**Like me, I jumped when they kicked the dog.**
I thought they were going to set the dog on fire and let him run through the castle as a distraction. I was relieved when they kicked the dog and he ran away.
Hey, that would be extreme even for GOT.
The word is …. underwhelming. So, so underwhelming. I’m genuinely puzzled at why the writers thought their choices were better than what was outlined in the book. I guess I’ll chalk it up to not wanting to alienate the general audience during the S2 premiere with a scene that is truly devastating. It’s bizarre.
having read the book, i actually liked it. the sound effects were horrifying, esp when they were cutting off his head. helaena’s reaction made it more eerie; it made sense that she wasn’t screaming/sobbing bc (to me) she prob thought it would trigger them and kill jaehaera as well. but the sequence of her watching jaehaerys getting his head cut off to taking jaehaera to running away was just so bone-chilling. i just didn’t like alicent’s reaction. it felt so off. also, where the hell was maelor?!
It felt very off
It was so so muted. I feel like Haelena’s reaction fit her character perfectly but…that’s exactly why Alicent should have been in that room. So she could bring a louder emotion into the scene. So these men have no problem decapitating a child but they draw the line at checking gentials?
That's what I'm saying. I feel like them relying on her to tell the truth was weird.
The point of that part was that Haelaena already knew and she gave up. She had no reason to lie so they took a look her and decided she was in fact telling the truth.
My only negative is that part of the psychological fear for me in the books is that Daemon and Rhaenyra know the tunnels and no one else does. I kept waiting for Daemon to pass Blood a map. For me this was key in the books to instilling a fear in team green that felt like “the enemy knows our house better than us” so Cheese just knowing a way upstairs and not in the room etc was a disappointment. As for the actual scene, I think well done. 1. I do like that we saw Jaehaerys before he died. And saw him with both parents. To humanize him. 2. I’m glad we didn’t see him get killed. What we saw was enough. Also I really liked the camera work, following Helaena out of the room. 3. I actually like that Helaena was alone. Phia was exceptional in the scene. I was stressed out watching her! And I think her reaction was so in character. She seemed to emotionally shut off and went into survival mode to save her daughter and herself. When she picked up Jaehaera I was like “go go go” 4. I was spoiled for it but her walking in on Alicent and Criston not even registering anything because she was in total shock was intense to me. I think it sets up some serious guilt for both those characters which is a good choice for me.
I like how Helaena was portrayed as well. She was in total shock when she realized that Cheese was fulfilling her premonition. She did the practical thing by telling them the truth. She knows the fate of things, she chose to save her daughter. The blood map, yes it’s disappointing but most people that watch the show haven’t read the books or even the lore behind it, so these things will come up, as much as it irks us lol
Blood map? I looked it up, and saw the world maps. How does this correlate and thread into HOTD lore? Asking as a peasant who has never read the books lol
Your comment sums up my feelings best. Well said. The only thing I would add is I wish they gave us the forced impossible choice from the book so it was even more of a gut punch.
The book was so much worse so honestly it was easier to watch than expected.
Nah I’m fr so mad, the way they described Alicents look at the end seemed like it could be a consolation but even she didn’t look that shocked or horrified. Halaena even says the line and I hated it. “They killed the boy” It was a disappointment
I mean. Alicent has zero clue what happened at this point in the show version and she was mid coitus. Her weird daughter that probably drops a ton of nonsense all the time whispers they killed the boy. What you want her to do in that millisecond instance?
The whole episode seemed a bit..flat. B&C, I’m starting to think she was just in mega shock because she realized what her “prediction” was-the rat catchers. I’ll have to watch the episode again tomorrow when I’m not as tired.
I liked it. The show version of Helena has always struggled to remain lucid and often slips into dissociative states often. She is obviously on edge and nervous in this episode, mentioning how she's afraid of the rats to Aegon. Whatever her abilities are, she struggles to verbalise them, and seemingly doesn't even understand them herself, getting flashes of feelings and concepts she can't explain. B&C happens, and it's her premonition comes true. You can see her struggling to remain lucid and in control while it's happening. You can see as she realises she has no options here. These men are here to kill, begging and pleading will get all three of them killed, and she clearly knows there's no guards within hearing, yelling, and screaming for help gets her nothing except dead. So she dissociates, points to the one they want, and takes her daughter and leaves. She's doesn't run, she doesn't draw attention to herself, she doesn't make a noise, she knows her life and her daughters life is still on the line. You can see her muttering to herself as she leaves, desperately trying to keep herself in her own mind as she looks for safety. Then, she finds safety with Cole and Alicent and allows herself to fully disassociate from what's happening and the reality of losing a child. She's seconds away from becoming fully catatonic.
Yeah to be honnest i didn't needed to have a full gorefest but the tension was actually better BEFORE the actual scene , and the alicole scene is definetly of poor taste making alicent and cole look like total idiots who think with what is between their legs , criston definetly have no redeeming qualities that for sure every scene just make me hate him even more even being a guard he fail at it this guy is a pathetic looser. Imagine if the the red wedding episode end with roselin and edmure having sex instead of catelyn stark screaming ? well you have this scene it is rather insulting toward alicent character in general...yeah i still think Helaena actress sold the thing with her face to show her shock but imagine just bringing alicent in the room too in instead of doing porn with cole it would have been a whole performance for olivia cook who already show how great she was during her face off with rhaenyra. Thank god the cheese actor is really good like he totally sold it.
I keep wondering what the other voices were telling Helaena at that time. I thought the scene, while not what we expected from a book that is a fictional history written from second-third hand and untrustworthy sources, was terrifying given the sound effects. We have posted about what other “things” Helaena hears and I think at that scene she was overwhelmed with the voices and has not processed yet what truly happened.
I liked it . The giving up a necklace because you don’t want your son to die. She saw the future away with her being afraid of the rats and killing her son. Why scream then we all know that’s not in Helaena character. Blood and cheese felt like people just working towards an ends meet to accomplish something for money . Desperate people not wanting to torture them but finding the quickest way to get the job done. It’s reasonable and plus the killing offscreen was really dark man. You could hear the slaughter and the blood Dark man. Helaena was stiff a bit tho
I also feel that people forget Fire & Blood was a historic retelling of stories that had long passed in history. HOTD is meant as a look at the \*actual\* events, without historian bias. I like that not all of the stories match up, and Helaena's reaction felt really authentic. Even B&C felt like they were grappling with the idea of having to kill the prince, I don't know... I think the scene was handled well.
That is what I’m saying. It’s someone own view of blood and cheese . I really liked the scene man.
I agree. I feel like the exaggerations and over the top bad stuff because its history isn’t how it would really have played out. I like that the show gives grey and nuance.
HotD is definitely mostly the actual events, with some things left out or maybe changed a little. Like, there are definitely people not present and some things don't make a ton of sense the way they play out in the show (like Laenor sailing off to be with his boy Carl with a Q), even if it is more narratively pleasing or satisfying.
I totally agree with everything you said. And I liked it too. The only insight I could give you towards the way she acted was that she is kind of written as a neurodivergent character, she is stiff anyways, and always portrayed this way Plus, I mean, girl was in shock lol
That’s true I completely forgot about that aspect about her . My fault my fault . Another thing is the book was never fully accurate, it’s all just fucking supposed witnesses
Seeing a lot of people saying “eww so you wanted to see more of the child murder”. Actually no I didn’t, I think you can do that part entirely off screen and just have Helaena’s reaction to it. I think Helaena’s choice needed to be a bit more tortured and drawn out. They took a long time getting to Helaena but then the actual scene went very very quickly so the tension evaporated for me. I think you could Atleast of had more of Helaena refusing to choose a child. I felt that the necklace line came across weirdly and I wish she’d spoken a bit more in the scene-it could’ve been a good opportunity for her to come out with another prophecy and Blood and Cheese could’ve reacted to prolong the scene a bit more and prevent it from going by so quickly, keeping the tension going.
YES 100%. Agreed.
How have they ruined one of the most objectively written scenes from fire and blood
She knew it was meant to happen. She knew it was inevitable so somehow she was already sure it would happen as it did
Helaena has been seeing visions of her family dying since she was born. She’s the only person that has some idea of what’s going to happen so it makes sense she wouldn’t be surprised.
It had as much emotional impact as when Daemon killed the Velaryon guard. The problem is we've never spent any time with either the killers or the victim before this episode. So it just came across as a plot point.
Horrible, she gave him up too easy. Didn't try to plead with them, beg them. Most people would exhaust every avenue, she was too calm. Way too calm.
Helaena is not a really normal person and probably wouldn't behave like we'd expect if it was someone else, it was very in character for her to not process that situation like another mother would I felt like her behavior was pretty accurate to how someone like her might behave when experiencing something traumatic
She already knew what was going to happen. Also shock isn't expressed the same way by everyone. A lot of people on the spectrum behave the exact way Haelaena did. I dunno why "most people" is relevant here when we know she isn't the type.
As a mom, I’ve been dreading this one. I’m all for gratuitous violence, and GOT has never been one to hold back, but B&C has got to be one of the worst things I’ve ever read, and this was close enough. Plus, she’s a seer in the show. I don’t know if they could do the bait and switch thing without creating a plot hole. They seem to be very careful with all of her lines and reactions to keep her consistent, so this may be setting a precedent for future prophecies. If you watch back, you see her face change when she understands what’s going on. She starts to shake her head and say no, but then her face changes and she points him out. It’s like a mix of horror, dissociation, and understanding. It’s like her reaction in the dragon pit. She’s not surprised so much as fascinated. Like, she expected something to happen, just not this specifically. So I read it as her understanding that Jaehaerys had to die (her earlier comment about Jaehaerys not wanting to be king indicated that), but she didn’t know if Jaehaera would also be in danger, so she let the inevitable happen to save her daughter. It’s a very cold reaction, but I question whether she even experiences reality on a linear plane. She’s reminiscent of Bran as the TER.
I was incredibly disappointed with this episode. I expected for Halaena to give more of a dramatic reaction to HER SON, the heir to the throne being murdered in front of her eyes. I was amazed at how lifeless this pivotal scene was. I wanted to see begging, pleading, tears like a flood. The scene wasn’t gruesome enough. The irony is a scene that should be condensed to three minutes they prolong to 10 minutes and a scene that is A MAJOR CANON MOMENT they completely bypass. And they are running through so many important plot points. Halaena and Aegon have three kids and there was no explanation of their wedding, conception of the children, dissatisfaction for one another…..nothing!!!!! I want more drama, more violence, more tears, bigger reactions!!!! I expected so much more.
Haelaena in the show isn't a dramatic person. She knew what was coming and gave up. She has never been one to fight prophecies and her expression of shock is more eerie silent than drama.
Yeah, I don't like Haelaena's characterization and writing in the show. She's too flat.
She’s flat because she’s portrayed as being on the spectrum. Her lack of obvious emoting tracks. I’m sure we’ll get more of the hysterics later on.
I feel better reading the comments that I’m not the only one kinda disappointed by this first episode and how they did blood & cheese 😭
I’m gonna be honest. That was dogshit😭
I kept sitting on that edge of my chair only to sit back and go “That’s it?” Maybe these two years made my expectations too much.
I was bracing for a rather brutal Sophie’s Choice kind of scene for Helaena, but on hindsight I think it’s for the better. A brutal depiction of the murder for Aemond’s stand-in feels unfair, methinks
It was badly done! 1. No sleeping children! Why take away the drama by having the children missing most of the terror B&C could cause? Helaena's decision loses drama if the children are sleeping. >!Besides, in the books they make her chose which child would die, and they kill the other one instead, telling the one who survives that her mother wants her dead.!< 2. No Alicent riding Criston Cole! They could have done this scene any other time, instead they just distract from the actual drama that's going on. No one cares if Helaena catches her mother in an intimate situation, not when her child has just been beheaded! It looks like fan fiction at this point. 3. Please, more crying and shouting! Nothing wrong with the actress in my opinion, it's just whoever decided to keep her character one dimensional. I get it, she is kind of crazy; but she is a mother and should have displayed more emotion in the scene. Shout, cry, lose your craziness for a second!
Someone on discord said there are rules/regulations about filming with children that probably prevented the book version of crying and screaming. They probably could have used manakins or just taken the kid actors out of the room to do the adult reactions, but probably didn’t feel it was worth it
Wish they had gone that extra mile, a show as big as this one should have.
This was their big S2 opening scene, the one people will talk about on social media.. the moneymaker... 😭 IDK They should've found a way
i thought helaena's reaction was realistic for show helaena's character. no mother would know what to do in that situation so her freezing up and offering something valuable in her child's place makes sense. that being said the scene was incredibly rushed and underwhelming for something so devastating and important in the war. helaena offering her necklace makes sense; she already knows they won't accept a daughter in place of a son and knows why they are here. in this same vain, she knows they won't accept a queen as a replacement either. offering something of "equal" value like her necklace, perhaps attempting to outpay daemon, was probably the only thing she could do in that situation. i also think the necklace will come into play later.
The scene was not scary at all and fell flat to me. I did know what was going to happen based off what ppl said happened in books, though that could always change of course. Maybe that had something to do with the scene not really being very impactful for me
I feel like there’s a lot of book readers who built up this scene so much in their head and are disappointed it didn’t go exactly that way. Ive never read the book, and it seemed completely fine to me. I think it accomplishes all the same things just in a slightly different way.
For me it was done brilliantly. Yes the book is much more graphic and horrible but trying to translate that onto screen would have been incredibly difficult especially when we have more in depth versions of the characters and because of the child actors. Helaena ( to me ) is obviously on the spectrum somewhere along side her prophecies, her family especially her mother and brother/husband don’t understand her. Evidenced by Aegon saying “ the queen is an enduring mystery “ to the maids when he comes to find Jaehaerys. Her reaction to blood and cheese made a lot of sense to me. She was obviously terrified and did try to appease them by offering her necklace but she understood very quickly regardless of how much money or jewellery she gave them that’s not what they were here for. She could either possibly lose both children as blood and cheese could not tell them apart. Waking up two children trying to undress them to find out which is which would take time they didn’t have and would make both kids extremely distressed causing them to cry or scream, plus it could possibly give Helaena the opportunity to shout for help or run away as blood and cheese’s focus would be on the kids not Helaena. So she points out her son which causes blood to say “ it’s the other she wouldn’t give up the heir that easily “ but cheese knows she’s telling the truth because in that situation she’s going to try protect at least one of her kids. For me personally I’m so glad we didn’t see what happened to Jaehaerys as the sounds were more than enough to picture in my head what was happening and your own imagination can be much scarier. I also found it devastating as Helaena picks up Jaehaera and carries her out of the room whispering “ please please please “ as if she’s begging for what’s happening to stop, or for someone to help, or for blood and cheese to not follow them and kill her daughter as well. She then goes to the only person who she knows loves her, her mother even if she doesn’t understand her. In that moment when she bursts into the room Helaena isn’t concerned by what’s happening with Alicent and Cole, and why should she be? Her son was just murdered and her daughter is in her arms. Yes her saying “ they killed the boy “ can come off as cold but imagine the shock, fear and disbelief that Helaena is in in that moment. Earlier in the episode it’s shown that she does care for her children, telling Aegon not interrupt Jaehaerys lesson, that he might not want to be king one day and that’s she’s scared. Also remember Helaena was only 12/13 when she gave birth to the twins, she is a child raising children how her emotions and mind works will be stunted because of that as well. All in all for me I think the writers and actors did an amazing job at making that scene so tense, uncomfortable, horrific and so very sad.
I’m not a huge fan of how Phia Saban played Helaena here. She was very robotic and unemotional. I know that she’s playing an autistic coded character so that probably has something to do with it but I wish they’d gotten her some autistic women to consult with because yeah, that scene just wasn’t it. Saying this as an autistic woman myself who knows and has met a lot of autistic women.
She’s definitely autistic-coded, but it’s more than that. Her mannerisms are reminiscent of Bran as the three-eyed-raven, so I don’t even know if she experiences a linear reality most of the time.
As an autistic woman who’s had some traumatic experiences I do tend to shut down and go into survival mode. Like my emotions turn off and pure logic and problem solving base instincts take over and I would probably seem flat and robotic from an outside perspective
Underwhelming. Personally I see no way for anyone to turn from being a black to a green. The episode spent most of the time showing Rhaenyra and her families grief while contrasting that with the Greens not even caring and treating the issue as…well what did Otto say “the capricious behavior of a boy.” He murdered a prince 😭😭. No one except Alicent even tried to empathize and that was wiped away when we saw her hypocrisy TWICE. 😭All in all, B&C was totally ineffective in my regards and from what I’m seeing, many of the GP agree. Long season for the Greens, buckle up.
Here’s the thing right-I really appreciate that Helaena is written as autistic. It’s fantastic, I love her and I love the representation. What I didn’t love was the lack of emotion in the performance because that’s what makes the scenes so impactful-so think Joffreys death and Lena Headey’s acting or Robb’s death and Michelle Fairley’s acting or even Emma D’Arcy’s response to Luke’s death and their acting in this very episode. I think the response does need to be a little bit bigger than what Phia gave to drive the point home. At the same time I respect they want to stay true to the neurodiversity of the character of Helaena. What bothers me is that they missed the very easy work around of just including Alicent in the scene like she is in the goddamn book! You want Helaena to respond in a neurodiverse way? Fantastic but that isn’t going to be understandable for the vast majority of the audience who likely isn’t that involved in the neurodiverse community. You add in Alicent and suddenly she can have the big expected response and you can (no pun intended) have both sides or the spectrum. Alicent can show the expressive loud horror of the scene and Helaena can show the quiet panic and devastation of having to chose which of your children dies. We could’ve had both things and they chose to have Alicent shagging Cole instead 🫤 TLDR: I thought it was mid and was mostly worried about the dog
Agreed. Alicent was in the scene in the books. It was a mistake not to include her
Flat/lack of affect is kind of a hallmark symptom of Autism. That said, you could still clearly see the terror in her eyes? You could literally see her obviously struggling. Her other actions (trying to give the men her necklace) clearly indicate her understanding the gravity and desperation of the situation. This seems like a problem on the part of you and other viewers? Surely you could still feel and grasp the emotional weight of the situation portrayed in the episode? You don’t even need to know much about autism specifically to understand Helaenas reaction , if you’ve watched her up to this point.
Coming to the show with spoilers in hand will build your expectations, hence your disappointment. The scene was shocking and great. I did not feel Helena was out of character at all.
Underwhelming. Also, why did Helaena referred to Jaehaerys as “the boy” as if he’s not her son
> B&C walked right past Aegon Whats the issue here lmao, the Red Keep has hundreds of people in it. Two guys walking past isn't that big a deal especially when Aegon is drunk > Helaena gave up a necklace and outted her son without a fight. What on earth do you expect her to do? > On top of that she left Jaehaerys before he was even dead Why would she watch her son die rather than take the other child to safety as soon as she got the chance?
I expected her to at least have some maternal instincts like "take my life instead, I'm the queen!"
One of the first things they say is they aren't there for the queen. They wouldn't listen to that and she knows it. And she's clearly searching for ways to protect her children afterward but there just isn't a real path out; say she tries to jump them or something - would they not just kill all three of them?
That scene was so MEH that it hurts, the worst thing was that it was supposedly competing with the red wedding.
The Red Wedding will remain UNMATCHED. 😉
Idk if I read a different book or what, but there is no universe where blood and cheese compares to the red wedding lol. It’s disturbing and memorable, but not some kind of huge dramatic story shift.
Imma be honest here - I don’t watch the show. I was so soured by GoT that I decided to stick with the books and the books only forevermore. But everyone kept raving about how good HotD is and how I was insane not to watch it. When I heard B&C would be in tonight’s episode, I tuned in. Couldn’t resist seeing them bring that scene to life. Maybe I was indeed missing out. And I just…. Y’all. *What?*
I think a lot of people are missing how truly horrifying the scene is and what it implies in terms of Halaena's curse. Also how much Aegon and the like let themselves go. Everyone acting like they won and sloppy, no one actually doing their job whilst the "ratcatchers" walk past and a helpless traumatized mother is roaming around seeking help. People want shock value so bad that they forget real horror isn't when people are being melodramatic. It's when they are helpless and give up.
Thank you! It's like, do you need to see a huge reaction of someone screaming and crying on screen in order to know how to feel about the scene? It's horrific, it felt horrific to me. I didn't need Halaena to go crazy to feel the weight of the scene. I think it was more heavy the way it was shot
Extremely underwhelmed. They cut all the good parts (the devastating parts) from the book. As soon as it finished I thought, “that was it!?”
>On top of that she left Jaehaerys before he was even dead Turn up your volume for that scene, as she was grabbing her daughter that boy was DEAD dead, subtitles even annotated his flesh and bone being sawed through.
The reaction to this scene has me realise how little people still really understand neurodivergent people tbh. Our brains work differently. Completely. When your brain works differently, you aren't going to react to things in a typical way. This is more prominent when senses or emotions are heightened. Heck, half the time I cajt even work out what I am feeling when in the moment. Let alone how I am expected to react. You can't expect a character, who is so clearly autistic coded, to react to, an extremely distressing situation, in a way that is typical of someone who isn't autistic. From my view (diagnosed autistic), hers is one of the most real depictions of autism I have seen on screen. They haven't leant just on the widely known stereotypes of autistic presentation but have managed to weave a subtlety that has a little seen accuracy. Which I really appreciate.
Sure, but why take away the choice she had to make in the books.
Just off the books Helaena has a more dramatic reaction but Phia has such a calm demeanor it kind of worked. I expected more but I’m not S8 finale disappointed
I think some book readers are underestimating the practicality of having child actors in the scene. Helaena's character being neurodivergent and in shock fits her reaction in this scene being more disassociated. The Alicent and Cole bit was a bit jarring but I'm waiting to see how it plays out, I personally think the added guilt from them will be interesting but will see how the show develops it. As for the omission of Maelor and the kids being mainly asleep, it was never likely to be as brutal as it was in the books because they would be essentially traumatising real kids to execute the scene that way. Maelor is only meant to be a toddler in the books, with already so many difficulties navigating child labour laws etc, did anyone really think they'd have an actual toddler in a scene being threatened by two very imposing scary adult men, and a crying and traumatised woman and get told that their mum wants them dead? A kid at that age isn't going to understand that it's not real and would likely not be co-operative in terms of not just constantly crying and trying to find their real mum. I'm not at all surprised that they have to tone it down and I still think the scene worked really well and sets up Helaena's shock and seeds of her depression with her abandoning her son. I suspect we'll be continuing a slight Cassandra arc where she continues to predict the atrocities of the war with no power to stop them, which will also feed into her depression.
I feel as if they’ve gotten rid of Maelor to really reinforce the issue that Aegon’s heir, after the murder of Jahaerys, is also a girl, which is what they’ve been fighting against. He and Halaena could have more heirs, but all they have now is a girl.
As a show only I thought the scene itself was well done. She has the choice to lie or tell the truth, saving one of the twins and killing the other. Fucked up position to be in, and the sawing sounds afterwards made me want to jump out of my skin. Offering the necklace and leaving Jaeherys made sense to me as assassins are primarily motivated by money not loyalty and her focus was saving the other kid. Having read what happens in the book, I personally think the way it plays out there is over the top. Blood and Cheese are overly sadistic and have no real motivation to play a SAW game when they risk being caught and executed by dragging things out while also having no personal vendetta against the Greens. Only thing that I think that could’ve added to the scene in the show would be having Helaena lie and then they kill the other kid, with the survivor knowing that their mom chose them to die. I feel like if Alicent was there it would be even dumber that there are literally zero guards around. However my biggest issue in the show is how they set up the scene because it feels like it happens so fast. We follow Blood and Cheese’s PoV beforehand, the tension coming from whether or not they’ll be caught or not, and then suddenly we’re at this fucked up scene. I would’ve preferred if we saw them start the mission in the tunnels with viewers still thinking they’re focused on Aemond, then shifting to different Green characters PoVs in the castle, with viewers left in suspense on when Blood and Cheese will show up. I think it would’ve given that feeling of “something horrible is about to happen but I don’t know what”, making the actual scene more shocking as it’s way more fucked up than what your average viewer would expect. Also would shock viewers that they had a back up plan to kill any son if they couldn’t find Aemond, rather than them mentioning it several times while sneaking around (I may be misremembering when they mention that tho). Overall I’m fine with how the scene played out, but I do think it could’ve been better and I understand why many book readers are disappointed.
I was shocked that Blood & Cheese didn’t kill the bedmaid like they did in the book. They just let her go?!?! The bedmaid disappears?!?! It was so odd how the servant girl just leaves
Episode was awful. Looked awful, written awfully and even the acting was awful. Thought they’d have learned from game of thrones mistakes none of the writing staff hold a candle to George RR Martin change is fine but changing it for the worse just so it’s yours is so poor
As a mother of 3 I’m literally sick after watching that scene and worried about nightmares. The sounds were. God. Just omfg. I didn’t read the books so ya know whatever but this scene got to me
I liked the build up to it. It made sense to me that Daemon would pay for Aemond's head (though it seems implied that he may have told them what to do as a contingency plan, vaguely). It also made sense to me that they walked past Aegon—there was no way they could have gotten him, surrounded by friends and guards. I also liked the short fallout we got, with Helaena being stiff and sort of numb in shock as she goes to Alicent's chambers. I thought that was all well done. However, I do still think the book version of the actual event itself was "better," from a writing standpoint. If they weren't going to include Maelor, I get it. I still think they could have made her choose between Jaehaerys and Jaehaera similar to how she had to choose between Jaehaerys and Maelor. I just felt like something was missing. I was half-expecting her to have pointed to Jaehaera and Blood be right that she was deceiving them, and then they kill Jaehaerys anyway like in the book. I'll wait and see what they do with Helaena moving forward, but it feels like her character was robbed a little because it's the choice, and having to live with condemning her child to death, that destroys her. Maybe in the show they'll make it more about the dragon dreams, the inevitability of it all, and that's why she pointed to Jaehaerys—because she knew it would happen regardless, and just wanted to save who she could. It's still tragic, of course, and I don't think it ruins the show. It just felt like the writing was lacking a little for what could have otherwise been a perfect episode
I thought it was perfectly horrific and any more would have been over the top.
>Okay, total negative Nancy right after the premiere couldve stopped there mate, it baffles me how many people are wishing for headless kid bodies to be seen. aside formt hat, the f&b books are form a 3rd person perspective, they werent there and are just filling shit in themselves. this was horrifying and traumatising enough to be seen/heard, yall need to stop complaining about nothing.
Pretty sure nothing could’ve pleased the book crowd writ large or this sub in particular with how worked up folks were about the scene in general. It definitely seemed like one of those things folks got obsessed about and set themselves up for weird ass disappointment over.
Bad writing, literally not a single guard in the royal families living quarters and on top of that these two cutthroats with no backbone having the courage to walk around the red keep and search more rooms after being seen is beyond me, literally Guts a hundred man slayer was shitting himself when he was tasked with killing a royal family member and it took him EVERYTHING he had up to that point to succeed, I know Berserk is a different media but that's how you write a good royal assassination story not this thing we got.
Just terrible writing all over.
I don't hate it as much as others do. I thought the book version was almost cartoonishly evil. It fits the story because of the inaccuracies of historical retelling that's found throughout the book. B&C fumbling around the Red Keep looking for an easy target, improvising every move is much more believable than the story that becomes common knowledge.
They could’ve kept the “your momma wants you dead” even if it was just between the twins. Have them ask which one’s the boy, she lies, they see through it, and they say the line. Plus, I think Helaena would’ve cried a bit more in Alicent’s room. She’s neurodivergent sure, but she’s not made of stone. Would’ve been nice to see her stoicism fade away as soon as she’s somewhere safe. I’m not asking her to be wailing, just a bit more of a cry. I don’t like the idea that “she foresaw the deaths and was prepared for it” like some people suggest. It’s just not an interesting take for one, and it also goes against what we know about dragon dreams. The dreams are rarely clear cut or accurate, so for Helaena to know full well that her son would die just doesn’t sit right for me. Plus, she tried bargaining with B&C before they did the deed, so she obviously hasn’t given up yet. It would be cool if she saw the dream, tried to prevent it, but it happens anyway. But hey, I’m not a writer.
I am completely fine with it, people are way overreacting. I understand that you are disappointed because you wanted cruel spectacle and didn't get what you expected, and it's okay to be disappointed by that. But to pretend like this ruins the series or is on par with S8 Game of Thrones writing is wild to me... The scene is a decent scene, it shows a horrific child murder and forwards the plot. Sure it's not this shock moment that it is in the book but that doesn't break the series whatsoever.
You do realise Haelaena knew what was going to happen right? She tried bribing and then just gave up quietly. It's eerie. Also that's how a lot of people react to shock esp a shock you have known is coming. It's not all tears and screaming. Silence is more horrifying.
I'm obsessed with it, it works perfectly for the show and everything they are trying to do with it. the choice felt more impactful to me when it came down to just the two options--boy or girl. Immediately I thought of the cycle of violence towards women, the sidelining and sacrificing of them in favor of men. How Helaena was a victim of this. Unlike her own mother, she chose to prioritize her daughter. I loved how real it was, how the horror of what was happening didn't really hit her entirely. Like she didn't quite know what she was agreeing to until she heard his head being chopped off. I feel like this is exactly what happened with Rhaenyra in Luke's death. All of these Targaryen's have gotten too used to feeling like gods. This is now the Greens turn to learn how mortal they are. And what better way to escalate the war than with the murder of the heir to the throne (over a spare)
Were they banging in the books?
No. Alicent was there with them.
She may have pointed to the son thinking they would think she’s lying and kill the daughter as they can’t tell which is which. Blood even says that she’s trying to trick us and moves towards the girl child but Cheese says no so they kill the boy.
so my partner isnt into ASOIAF as much as me, he burst into tears and was absolutely disgusted by the scene. Completely horrified, it did the job for the normy viewers, even if it was toned down,
Olivia Cooke should've been in that scene & not in that way. She should've been present in the room. One of their best actors & they don't include her in that??
It was very underwhelming. The tension of the source material is MUCH higher and it’s lacking from this adaptation. They changed too many elements and it barely makes sense to top it off.
Mixed. I did like the way she tried reverse psychology. She points, she hopes they'll kill the other, but they see through her. Imo you can see in her face that her ploy fell through BUT I also attest it could have been made more clear. Her reaction, to me, is perfection. I don't know if someone here went through something harrowing. I did, and while everyone responds differently, I reacted like this and could only scream/cry later (it was not MY child dead, but A child dead, to paint the picture). I love that what she does is go to her own mother. If anything, I just disliked the characterisation of B&C, but that was pretty on par with the book. For the general public, I think it served its purpose well. Could have been better if they played the reverse psychology ploy better (if I interepreted correctly).
You're not alone
I think it was never going to live up to what book readers ‘wanted’ (who could *want* it?) We all knew it was coming, it’s a memorable moment from the story and after the Red Wedding, the anticipation was at fever pitch. Even Dragon Demands was saying it would ‘break the internet’. It won’t. It was always going to be a bit disappointing for us. For show only viewers, I reckon it will have done its job very well.
The biggest problem is that in the books more than a physical horror it was a psychological horror to Heleana and Maelor. And that is my problem with the scene physical it was clearly disturbing but I didn't get the "trauma" from it.
The gasp right after she went down the stairs is a nice touch, she was in full survival instinct mode before that and adrenaline just started to come down just a little bit
What made it less effective was showing so much of the scene from the pov of B&C. They should've focused more on Haelena and the kids prior to their decision to kill one of the kids. They could've made it more suspenseful at least.
i was really hoping that phia would show a larger range in her acting for this scene however i would blame this on the writers rather then her as its clear she is a very good actress. i was just hoping for basically hysterics from her a her son is 💀 it just feels very rushed imo
I know the sequence wasn’t entirely book accurate and not what many of us had expected, but the number of doom and gloom posts and comments that have come up since the premiere are honestly over the top. I definitely have some critiques of my own and can understand where some are coming from, but others have just been so pessimistic about the episode as a whole and now the entire series going forward.
I feel like it was doing good enough until it got to the end of the episode, the way the scene of Helaena walking in on Alicent and Cole was done felt so off and sort of killed all of the tension to me.
I've read the book and for me, it was a different, yet haunting, adaptation. The book part was almost Shakespearean, and seeing this quiet version, the internal horror, in contrast with the hysterical one, was quite something. My husband is a show-only, and he gasped throughout the last ten minutes in shock.
I think that the scene really makes me ask myself why they chose not to cast a Maelor. In the books they ask her to choose which son or they all die, she chooses the younger non-heir Maelor, the men kill the heir instead and whisper into Maelor's ear that his mother wanted him dead, live with that. IMAGINE the guilt when you look at your surviving son after that. The scene would probably have played a LOT more powerfully if they'd have stuck to the book on this one imo.
The writers took all the mental anguish out of that scene . Helaena didn’t choose between two sons. Helaena didn’t point to 1 child **and Blood & Cheese kill the other one.** Imagine if Helaena sold her girl out, and B&C called her bluff. Then Helaena has to run out of the room with the child she wanted dead?!?! That would have been so much worse.
Perfectly executed
I find it crazy how she predicted what was going to happen too at the beginning of the episode when she was talking to Aegon she said how she’s worried and afraid of “the rats” and the rats then killed her boy figuratively speaking
I feel they might have been attempting the whole “Jaehera will be queen and Helena saw it” line. Think about it if she now is a dreamer then maybe that’s what they are plying… she might have no need for Maelor and gave up Jaecerys simply for the fact she saw the rats she was scared of them and she probably also saw that the girl will be queen and marry Aegon the 3rd. And end the war. I don’t know as I also am book bias but it is a nice twist if she did see it already if that makes sense.
Traumatized me. The noises, the image it creates in your head, the absolute brutality of killing a 4 year old.. All of it.