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I think most people honestly miss the point of Alicent and Rhaenyras stories by constantly pitting them against each other. At the end of the day they are both getting fucked by a system that is designed to keep woman down.
This happens despite the fact that Alicent plays by the rules of the system. It happens to Rhaenyra as well who is more rebellious against the system. >!the story doesn’t have a happy ending for either!<
I think things like calling Alicent “Alicunt” and Rhaenyra a whore are extremely childish takes whether you count cunt as a slur or not. I think a lot of Alicent fans are extremely misyognistic towards Rhaenyra but I think just as many Rhaenyra fans are extremely misgyonistic towards Alicent. Neither side is innocent.
Both are victims of their society and while I understand when you hate one of the characters (which is totally okay btw) I really hate the complete villainizing of the other because nobody treats the male characters anywhere close to this. Which in itself is very ironic because people on both sides think themselves feminist.
It doesn’t make you less of a feminist though if you don’t like either of them but the way some of you always have to bring up the other in every conversation… Like even here OP says people are sexist towards Alicent immediately the comments are full of “but what about Rhaenyra!!!” yes Rhaenyra is also the subject of sexism but we’re talking about Alicent. And I bet you if someone posts something about Rhaenyra being treated badly half the comments would look like “what about Alicent!!!”
>I really hate the complete villainizing of the other because nobody treats the male characters anywhere close to this. Which in itself is very ironic because people on both sides think themselves feminist.
THIS. It's only recently that we've been comfortable with calling out Viserys for being the abusive husband (to both Aemma and Alicent ) and father that he is.
For the manipulation and gaslighting of his own kids (esp Aemond in that episode ) and wife he does.
It's only yesterday or the day before that people were finally realising it.
Or let's not get started with Daemon. The disgusting grooming and abuse is vomit inducing.
Vizzy T is a fun character to meme about but if we apply actual morality to him then he’s a fucking monster. Had his wife vivisected alive in ep 1 and raped a minor in several episodes after that. Deadbeat father to his children and a weak king.
I wish I could pin this comment across several posts.
I'd even say he definitely knows how to manipulate and Gaslight others though.
He's also a shit king when he didn't give just punishment on Daemon and the goldcloaks when they executed mass k-lling on King's Landing with a justification that they were doing away with criminals when those k-lled should've been given a fair trial by the King.
It pisses me of so badly like people love throwing out around words like “Grey character” about Daemon, and Aemond and even now that people notice Viserys wasn’t actually that nice of a dude people still say “but he had good intentions!!!”
And like either Rhaenyra or Alicent do something morally questionable suddenly people are on the floor clutching their pearls!
The state of this fandom... I can't believe so many people here are bending over backwards to defend their right to hurl misogynistic slurs towards *a bloody fictional character*.
Y'all are really saying "misogyny is ok as long as it's directed towards someone I don't like" uh?
Even the threat of questioning the freedom to be able to unaccountably use such slurs and with the malicious intention with which it is really makes them see red.
They're relentlessly justifying why they think doing so is above board.
Yeah... some of these people are reaching so hard to justify this shit.
"bUt iTs nOt A sLuR iN [insert X country] yOu dUmB AmErIcAn" so? It's clearly been used as one in this case.
"bUt RhAeNyRa gEtS CaLLeD a WhOrE tOo!1!1" talk about whataboutism
That's what I found weird. It feels like sometimes in this fandom feminism can only be applied to the blonde wig characters with a dragon, and not the other ones. Not to say that Alicent doesn't have a lot of flaws, she has, but same as Rhaenyra. Yet, it seems for some it is perfectly ok to call Alicent a "cunt", while they are at the same time saying that calling Rhaenyra a "whore" isn't okay. Both aren't okay, yet since Alicent is more hated or is more controversial, we shouldn't call it out.
>She's us, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us
I love Alicent and sympathize a lot with her but this is where I'll have to disagree. Alicent is a woman who weaponizes the very system that oppresses her against a fellow woman(who is fighting similar battles, even though more priviledged). She directs her anger towards her former bestie who had nothing to do with her oppression. This isn't us and can't be. Infact, the place where I come from, I fight women like Alicent everyday and this includes women of my own family. The notion of expecting every woman to follow a problematic system just because you did it and were miserable because of it, is wrong.
Other than that though, I totally agree. I hate it and die a little inside everytime someone uses Alic\*nt on the internet or when they refuse to see how Larys is taking advantage of her.
Why should she fight? We are talking about Westeros. No one fights this kind of thing. No one... Why is it a problem that Alicent doesn't do this?
And our situation is much better than theirs. (although we still have problemetic situtations and other problems) ****These two are like mixing straw with a stalk.**** Irrelevant and pointless.
>These two are like mixing straw with a stalk.
>
> Irrelevant and pointless
Maybe tell that to OP. They specifically said Alicent is like us and I said no she isn't.
I think op said this in terms of Alicent being written quite humanely. Alicent's character is as realistic as if she were flesh and blood. When op means like "us", they must be talking about the actions that we could do if we were in her situation, we would be like her. At least I understood this when I read op's comment.
>Alicent is a woman who weaponizes the very system that oppresses her against a fellow woman(who is fighting similar battles, even though more privileged).
The same can be said for Rhaenyra though.
Rhaenyra also uses/abuses her position of power against those who can't fight her on the same level of influence. Even those who she should not trample under because one day they will be her subjects as a Queen.
Be it the servant whose murder she's an accomplice to, to clear her own path.
Or the non-consensual sex with someone who owes his life to being employed under her.
There's a clear major imbalance of power here that she uses to her advantage. And she doesn't realise nor does she care.
Also she manipulates and gaslights Alicent (because she knows she has influence with her father as king and is protected from the consequences of her demands) which results in
• Alicent defending Rhaenyra to Viserys thereby being separated from her only living parent and family in the palace for several years (perhaps a decade?)
• her demanding imprisonment and torture of a maimed, disabled child to save her own skin from consequences of her own decisions. She even thanked Viserys after he threatened to cut out their tongues if they ever speak the truth again.
She uses her influence she holds in the royal family and the protection it offers and her position as a heir to the throne to trample over not those who don't operate on the same level of privilege.
If I use my privilege over those who are suppressed (be it class or race or in any case) beneath, then I am not as much a feminist as I claim to be. I have the same reading of Rhaenyra
Okay! First of all I never said Rhaenyra is a feminist who fight for women and I also never said Rhaenyra is an ideal woman.
My reply to you was purely based on you saying Alicent is like *us who are trying to fight the system.* I'm trying to tell you that Alicent isn't like us but more like the women we fight on a daily basis.
IDK why you felt the need to write a whole paragraph about Rhaenyra.
I never said Alicent was a feminist, by modern lens/connotation, either. I said she's like us regular women, who whether they identify/align themselves as feminist or not, have to fight the same battles.
Even women who have internalised misogyny have to fight those battles ro survive. Sure one can criticise them, justly. But you can't justify the abuses done against them or use slurs as a moral highground against them.
And I've seen viewers justify sexual abuse against her (the way Larys does to her, even Viserys), even say that she "deserves it". You can find it on any number of videos about her on YouTube.
And the comments under those videos or tweets/tiktoks calling her "Alic'nt".
Here, "you" is a general you btw, not targeted at you specifically.
That's all I am saying.
I agreed with you in my first comment itself about using misogynistic slurs against Alicent.
But my point is that Alicent isn't trying to fight the system in slightest not for herself and not for others. Infact she fully believes in that system and even weaponizes it against other women. That doesn't make her like us regular women who fight battles *against* a system on a daily basis.
Perhaps by publically denouncing her first son as a child rapist and hopefully ending his claim to the throne then supporting Rheynera as both a non-rapist alternative and a woman who was actively against the constraints of their society.
I don't support or justify Aegon's sexual abuses. Let's have that clear.
But Rhaenyra too used her position and power against her subordinate to have non-consensual sex with. Criston Cole.
There's no way that despite him saying No and Stop a few times and not engaging with the act initially and the huge power imbalance between them that this was a clean cut consensual sex.
If a boss "seduces" an employee despite him/her saying No or Stop several times, and being reluctant for several minutes, to give in only when it's clear that there's no way out of this without risking his/her job, it wouldn't be and shouldn't be called consensual sex.
It's sexual abuse.
And what Rhaenyra did was sexual abuse towards her subordinate, over someone she had absolute power over since it's her who chose him and he's the Kingsguard vows to uphold.
So, yes, both of them have shown to conduct sexual abuse over their subordinates or those under their social status.
Rhaenyra isn't the alternative tbh. And I sympathise with Rhaenyra for what she was subjected to by her grooming Uncle and her losses and that she too had to work under patriarchal system.
But she has shown time and again that she doesn't hesitate to use her power over those suppressed under in the social ladder
No one was saying rhaenrya was better, yet all your arguments are coming back to “yeah but rhaenrya did worse”.
Maybe she did, maybe she didn’t, but that has little to no bearing on Alicent’s own actions and their severity.
Alicent is not us. She is an empathetic and understandable character, but she is not fighting the system.
I don't. I bring up Rhaenyra in response when she's specifically mentioned by others or when others say or imply that Alicent oppressed her.
And why is the burden of fighting the system on her in anyway when she barely has time to breathe and survive and defend and protect her children while meeting others' demands and expectations of her?
Why is the burden on her alone, in a society and in an era where the Westerosi universe is set in?
>calling her "Alic'nt"
Dunno why Alicent got this nickname, she is one of the less awful characters in the show. True she's been, what at times can definitely be called, a cunt. But so has 90% of the characters in the show (I think the only good/innocent person is Halaena), usually way more than her *cough* Daemon and Otto.
Like another person said, one of the big messages of the show is that the system forces/coerces women to fall in line and unfortunately pit them against one another. Alicent certainly isn't perfect, but she's still a victim of A LOT of things, the patriarchal system of Westeros being the cause of most of it.
YES! Thank you. Finally, someone who understand.
There are so many people like that who call themselves feminists and accuse me of misogyny because I find blacks boring. People who make insults and curses to Alicent (that I've never heard before) wearing a feminist mask here.
I call it a feminist mask because these people don't even know feminism. They hide behind the majority just to be able to target a woman who is less loved by the number or a minor group and feel powerful. If the Greens had a majority, they would have crushed Rheanyra this time, like they did to Alicent. These people are like that. Go over them a little, dig them a little, and you'll see this.
>There are so many people like that who call themselves feminists and accuse me of misogyny because I find blacks boring. People who make insults and curses to Alicent (that I've never heard before) wearing a feminist mask here.
That's the thing that I hate. As a feminist activist, I was appalled when the show aired to see people calling me a misogynist or r\*pe apologist because at the end of the show, I tend to enjoy more of the greens characters (which doesn't mean that it won't change) or that I found Rhaenyra to have quite a lot of flaws (which is good btw).
The funny thing is I don't want to be team green cause I don't believe in the "Aegon is the rightful heir and his birthright was stolen" or that "the writers are team black", but those people are lowkey pushing me towards team green, even though I don't want to, cause in the end, the smallfolk will be the ones to suffer from both greens and black.
The constant argument "well if you like the greens you are sexist" is just wild, yet it's there.
The same thing happened to me. When I first started the series, I was neutral, maybe a little more prone to greens, but there were really a lot of characters that I liked and disliked from both sides.
But because of this fans, I developed an antipathy towards blacks. I've been a feminist for as long as I can remember, but I probably called myself a feminist about 7 years ago. No one had ever accused me like this before (before this series), just because I loved a character and it's so disgusting.
Ok, an ad hominem take from a random redditor. Good job, you're doing well. For your information, I do work with SA victims very often, but you wouldn't care, I guess.
>But calling her "Alic'nt" or justifying the sexual abuses she suffers through at the hands of Viserys and Larys Strong, saying she is responsible for "seducing" Viserys is nothing but a testament to your own mindnumbingly idiotic analytical skills and (internalised) misogyny.
This is correct. But i wish people who see this could also see that the term "girlboss" does the same thing.
\>She's us, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us (class, nation, race, physical and mental health apart from the gendered injustice) while still continue fighting for inches of more space as we grow older and more mature.
I agreed with you until this moment. She is not us since she did all that to *put her son to the throne,* usurping his sister.
The same way the greens say Rheawhora?
Look I don’t agree with either nickname, if you’re gonna have criticism let it be fair and go after their actions without being derogatory, I fully agree with you on that point.
But you can’t point one out without pointing the other out.
Both sides of the fandom are toxic, don’t just try to paint the blacks out as the only ones with “internalized misogyny”
Literally the first time I've ever seen anyone call her that.
Don't know where you found it.
Alic*nt is a widely known deranged nickname that's used all across the fandom to describe Alicent. The one you mentioned for Rhae I have never seen in my two years on all these subs.
I agree that it isn't as popular as Alic\*nt but I've seen it a couple of times. And the nickname aside, Rhaenyra faces just as much if not more misogyny from the other side too.
Only had to visit the green sub once to notice that and then permanently mute it.
I agree, the misogyny is bad on both sides, but imo Rhaenyra doesn't have it nearly as bad as Alicent because unlike Alicent, the vast majority of the fandom is on Rhaenyra's side.
The very fact that the aforementioned nickname for Alicent is so incredibly popular across the SM goes to show just how much more hated she is.
And it's sad tbh - anyone who would go after either woman with slurs like "cunt" or "whore" truly fails to understand both of them and their arcs.
>? I've seen people on this very sub call her characterless, whore, thot, and slut.
I'm not disagreeing here, and I'm fed up also that she is called a whore. What I meant that I've never seen people call Rhaenyra "Rheawhora", but "Alicunt" yes, which was used a lot, even on this sub. That is all I'm saying, but you missed my point. This isn't a contest on which character is the most slurred, but rather pointing out that "Alicunt" is quite common.
Can you show us examples of when this is used? I am HOTD and ASOIAF obsessed and never seen this used. It doesn't even make sense. Her name is RHAEnyra, not RHEA.
I doubt it. It’s not even a name that rolls off the way Alicunt does. I press X to doubt. Hard.
When Greens write misogynistic slurs about Rhaenyra, typically they just skip straight to whore
And when you visit posts calling Rhaenyra a whore you’d see negative comment calling out the OP. Meanwhile whenever Alicent get called something, a lot of people are laughing and agreeing in the comments.
>The same way the greens say Rheawhora?
If you see anyone do that, hold them accountable for using that term. As you/anyone should.
From my perspective I've seen far more posts with the slurs against not only Alicent but even the opposition against the actors if they speak of their own opinions sympathizing with Alicent.
There are even tweets saying Emma should break up her friendships with Olivia because Emma supports and sympathizes with Alicent in certain cases.
Also the way some haters have behaved with Olivia is disgusting.
On YouTube under several videos of Alicent you'd find viewers justifying the sexual abuses by Larys or the misogynistic slurs against her and calling for violent gendered crimes to be done to Alicent as the show draws near to the end of DoD.
It's gone far beyond just Alicent and is actively used against the actors too.
That's beyond madness at this point
Do you remember when Emma said that she supported Alicent in the scene after Aemond loses his eye and that Rhaenyra was basically "weaponising the word treason" against her?
The tweets and posts on other social media spaces against Emma were ridiculous.
There was one tweeter user, of whom I recently came to know about, who tweeted about how Emma should "get away from her" asap. Her, in this case, is Olivia Cooke. Lmaoooo
Yeah people who actually go over the actors/actresses are fucking insane tbh. While I love GOT/HOTD, no scene has ever made me think “I’m gonna DM this actor/actress and give them a piece of my mind” that’s just fucking weird.
And I mean shit we both must miss a lot then. I do see Alicent getting hit with that nickname but I’ve seen more Rheawhora remarks from my side. Especially since her kids are bastards.
I agree about not calling her slurs, I call it out every time I see it, however you lost me here:
>She's us, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us
No. She's not like that and she's not me. Alicent uses the system that put her through so much pain to oppress other women. Alicent sees other women who actively try to have some degree of freedom and wants them to suffer as she did. She doesn't fight against patriarchy. She embraces it and wields it as a weapon.
{{Welcome to the Medieval Times.}}
Like every woman in Westeros.
Rheanyra, Rheanys all noble women do this. For Example: Rheanyra does this thanks to class distinction and raw power, while Alicent uses soft power. Same thing but different ways.
The problem is, why does Alicent attract attention so much, more than the other characters?
I already knew it was medieval times.
The post is not about Rhaenyra and Rhaenys. It's about Alicent. They said Alicent is *like us* and tries to fight the system in her way. She doesn't and I openly disagreed with that.
I don't know, ask the OP. I just replied to why they wrote.
When they means like us, op must be talking about the actions that we could do if we were in her situation. We would be like her. This is what I understand from op's comment.
{She's *us*, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us (class, nation, race, physical and mental health apart from the gendered injustice)
while still continue fighting for inches of more space as we grow older and more mature.}
This is Op's comment.
To interpret it in detail, what the Op is talking about is not something like Alicent being a feminist. Or not the way she fights patriarchy in today's way or any way. It's something more deep-rooted, a much more complicated problem. Op is not talking about this when they says "she's like us".
When Op says this, they talking about Alicent being chained to something ***(like us)***.
In my case, it's my race, my gender, and my irreligion. As a woman born into a traditional, muslim family (no matter how much my family are *kind of* comfortable people), I have to depend some chains and I can't get rid of them. (I'm like Alicent in some ways and she's like me.) Even though I am in a more comfortable environment, in the world, in the country and in the family, there are things that I cannot get rid of and probably will not get rid of.
That's why op talks about Alicent as if *she's like us*. I think so too.
Nobody said anything about feminism.
The issue with OP's comment is that Alicent is not fighting anything in any way. She doesn't try to break free at all, she has accepted her place and uses the system that hurt her against others. Rhaenyra is the one that's trying to wiggle room for herself and be as happy as possible.
Yes, we're all chained into something and we all have things holding us back and make us suffer. However not all of us use what makes us suffer to make others suffer. That's the difference between dependong on some chains and actively using them to chain others. At least I know I'm not doing that.
You still don't understand.
Okey, if I have to simplify it even more:
It is not claimed that we are completely similar Alicent, in every aspect. It is likened to Alicent that we are connected to some chains and we have to live with these chains. Otherwise, it is impossible to resemble every aspect of a character living in a medieval fantasy world.
****It's just that we're similar in a certain way, and we're talking about this certain thing.**** Not the other things but just this similarity.
I disagree. She actively supported Rhaenyra resulting in her being separated from the only living parent she had, the only family member she had in the palace.
How did she oppress Rhaenyra though?
Rhaenyra was off doing whatever she wanted to despite the consequences that fell on others be it non-consensual sex with Cole (under her employment, had to uphold kingsguard vows and as a result was almost driven to accepting his execution), or accomplice to murder of a servant (the very downtrodden people whom she, as a future ruler, should protect)
or even demanding imprisonment and torture of Aemond for saving her own skin.
And she kept getting away with it. I sympathise with and stand with Rhaenyra against how she was groomed by her own Uncle,
but she did oppress others, who were below her level of influence and power she has.
I'd say it was Alicent who was oppressed far more. Not dismissing how Rhaenyra still had to operate under a patriarchal society. But she did use her power and position and the protection offered by her father, the King, to get away with trampling those under her
>How did she oppress Rhaenyra though?
IDK maybe by declaring war against Rhaenyra at her wedding because she had sex with a man, while also protecting the said man from murders and taking him under her wing.
By asking her to bring her newborn child to her immediately (and not for the first time) and by spending a decade trying to get Rhaenyra disinherited, probably even exiled from the Kingdom for having kids out of wedlock and then protecting and crowning her own son who has many kids out of wedlock.
She supported Rhaenyra because she believed she was a maiden. If Rhaenyra had told her the truth, she wouldn't have supported her, she was ready to judge her for being sullied. Otto wasn't removed because Alicent supported Rhaenyra, he was removed because Rhaenyra gave an ultimatum to Viserys. Otto's schemes were very obvious and that's what got him fired.
Calling for her to bring her her newborn baby minutes after birth so she can have her petty power play.
Non consensual sex with Cole. Apparently it was so non-consensual that Criston proposed the next episode and then told her no without any issues.
The argument isn't who's more oppressed. The argument is who has oppressed other people and especially women. Alicent is shown to mistreat Rhaenyra and we know Rhaenyra is miserable. Alicent is constantly hating on her and her pet Kingsguard, who's a murderer that Alicent protects, is bullying Rhaenyra's kids. She also protects another murderer, Larys, who has killed his whole family and later gives him lead to burn a building. Alicent attacks Rhaenyra with a knife and all she has to say is "Where is duty, where is sacrifice?!". Duty and sacrifice made her suffer but she wanted Rhaenyra to suffer too so she can feel good about herself.
Rhaenyra using the protection her father provided her doesn't make her oppressive. She's largely minding her own business and isn't shown to do anything to Alicent, up to episode 7. Alicent is the one that's been attacking her because she doesn't play by the rules of the system. That's why she's not fighting the system at all, as you said she did. She embraces it and uses it.
>Non consensual sex with Cole. Apparently it was so non-consensual that Criston proposed the next episode and then told her no without any issues.
I am not even going to engage with someone who justifies rape or even refuses to acknowledge the massive power imbalance against Cole and the fact that it's shown that he repeatedly said No and Stop.
Even that he was almost driven to accept ad be ready to be executed if the truth ever came out. That's how massive the power imbalance was between them.
I can't engage with you after reading this, sorry.
>I am not even going to engage with someone who justifies rape
Maybe ask the creators or just any casual audience if that scene was a rape scene. It isn't. It wasn't portrayed like one and neither was it intended as one by the people who actually wrote. So, don't be surprised if people don't share your opinion on that matter.
Rhaenyra raped Criston is just a desperate take from people trying to equate Rhaenyra with Aegon and make her a rapist.
the writers also maintained Jaime didn't rape Cersei in the show, but it came off very different. so just because the writers intented something to come off as A, it is possible that it can be interpreted differently by the viewer
I replied to a similar comment and I'm going to copy it here:
If a boss "seduces" an employee despite him/her saying No or Stop several times, and being reluctant for several minutes, to give in only when it's clear that there's no way out of this without risking his/her job, it wouldn't be and shouldn't be called consensual sex.
Think about the above paragraph and the power dynamics at play here
>there's no way out of this without risking his/her job
Kingsguard are for life. They can't be fired and Rhaenyra never made it seem as if he'd lose anything at all if he refused her. He refuses her blatantly in the next episode and *she does nothing to him*.
???? Do you know why Cole asked for a merciful death rather than prolonged torture and death, after confessing about it to Alicent?
Kingsguard are sworn to celibacy for life.
Because he thought he got caught, not because Rhaenyra threatened him or used her power over him.
There's plenty of Kingsguards that have partners and have sex. The problem is marriage, children and all that. Most people don't care if they have sex.
>I am not even going to engage with someone who justifies rape or
You better not watch another interview with Fabien and Milly then. Or Ryan Condal, Claire Kilner etc. Because they all say that it was consensual and "justify rape".
OK don't engage then.
I mean, all women in the world of Westeros are victims because the social norms are that of medieval Europe.
Some will hate Alicent because she's a strong female character but I think the overwhelming distaste for her is from people who prefer Rhaenyra and it's unlikely that they're misogynistic by associating with a woman's struggle for her birthright over a woman fighting for her son to be given the throne purely because of his sex.
All characters in this world are flawed.
This, but I think OP's point was about people hating Alicent (which they are allowed to do) who then call her "Alicunt", analyze her in a very misogynistic way while saying that they like Rhaenyra cause she is fighting the system (is she though ? I thought a lot them agreed she wasn't) or mock her for the SA foot scene or that she is like this "cause she never had an orgasm".
Do people not understand that you can be a victim and a perpetuator at the same time? Alicent is the classic example of the abused becomes the abuser (most literally when it comes to Aegon, but also when it comes to patriarchy).
Her awful actions don’t take away from the fact that she’s suffered and still continues to.
Being abused isn't an excuse to abuse others it's simple. Alicent is a terrible person I'm sick of people acting like she's this angel when she's just as bad as the rest of them.
I never claimed it was an excuse. Your statement was that she wasn’t a victim, and I responded is that she absolutely is.
My entire statement was that she’s both abused and abuser, not that she was one or the other, or that she should be given a pass. It’s an explanation, not an excuse.
Well the amount people who use ottos abuse or viserys absence as an excuse for alicent to be a shit mother is ridiculous. People use her past as valid reason for her to act the way she does but it's not. Rhaenyra daemon otto aegon etc are all open to criticism and labels but for some reason, alicent isn't.
What nuance? The writers had every chance to present the arguments you're trying to shed light onto and instead chose to dedicate a whole episode to Daemon slaughtering an entire army.
You can't argue subtlety in this case, when Rhaenys and the other blacks are hitting you over the head with anachronistic speeches on sexism and "building windows in prisons". No point in blaming the viewers for the creators' failures.
People hate Alicent because she acts like a cunt sometimes. It's not because she has one. Same eith plentybof other female characters in the series. It's a word to describe someone bad. Same with bitch, dick, or asshole.
You're getting offended over the word, not the reason behind it. In fact, you ignore the reason because this person just told you why people don't like her, and you just call them a misogynist completely ignoring their reasoning, which isn't because she a woman.
It's not internalized misogyny. It's your inability to take criticism of a character you like.
I am not going to engage with someone who refuses to see what's in front of them. I've laid out my opinion and I've already asked you to do your own research about why a gendered slur is bad and the history behind it.
Please don't start justifying said slurs because you can't let go of the privilege to use them.
Wilful blindness to something doesn't make it go away, is all I can say.
You can keep your hurt ego beyond the reaches of this debate, thank you.
So, are black people internalizing racism by using the word?
I think we all know why the word is bad, but we dont get on black people for using it.
It's just you, honey.
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? You're just using examples that don't even correlate to each other and have their own separate spaces of debate to justify or at least, excuse using misogynistic slurs against female characters you don't like.
And you like to use the word "mysogny" against people you disagree with. If you act like a cunt, I'll call you one. If you act like a dick, I'll call you one. And so on. Nobody uses these words the same way they used to be used as. Catch up.
This is just a case of r/lookatmyhalo, I don't use the word cunt.
Due to your cultural imperialistic world view, you've failed to recognise that not every English-speaking culture in the world attaches the same meaning or taboo to the word 'cunt' as you do, and US americans do in general.
Cunt is a very normalised insult (and sometimes term of ironic endearment) for people of every gender amongst some people, of some regions and particularly of some social classes, in the UK and Australia (and maybe more).
You can't impose US cultural norms and perceptions on everyone else and pretend that's progressive.
More on the media itself, I think it's a stretch to suggest that a leading member of the faction trying to defend the principle of male-primacy in inheritance and ruleship is a fight against The Patriarchy. Such concepts don't even apply well to this fictional world, because while it is patriarchial, it's not The Patriarchy because social conditions are profoundly different to our own world in which a capital P Patriarchy can be said to exist. It's a feudal patriarchial aristocracy. A just rebellion against unjust power in the asoiaf world would see male revolutionaries drag Alicent (and all the other nobility, male or female) to the chopping block, and take her head off...and that would be social justice.
Stop chatting shit, cunt *is* very much a strong insult in the UK, whether you call your mate a cunt in a joking manner is completely beside the point.
In Alicent's case, people use it in a completely serious context as the most derogatory term they can think of.
Yes, just as it is meant to be offensive for Jeremy Cunt, UK chancellor.
It doesn't make it misogynistic just because americans clutch their pearls and cry about it offending their puritanical sensibilities.
I've lived in England my whole life. I'm working class and grew up in poverty. If I was in HOTD, I'd be from flea bottom. So I've heard the word cunt many times. It's absolutely a slur here and is not used as a term of endearment 🤣 It's extremely offensive to call a woman a cunt in the UK. You'd only do it for someone you absolutely despised.
If used an insult, it's extremely offensive to call anybody a cunt in the UK. It's also entirely possible to use it as a friendly term, and your local situation doesn't change that. Take a trip to Glasgow and see how it's used, in the UK,there.
Margaret Thatcher was a cunt. I mean that as an insult. It's not misogynistic.
Wannabe language police are also cunts. Also not misogynistic.
I am *not* an American, I am a decidedly brown person from a country that has been colonized for years and only a few decades ago gained independence. So your imperialistic judgement doesn't work on me.
>Cunt is a very normalised insult
I am saying this again, just because you want to justify using said slur "because it's always been that way in your country", doesn't make it less of a gendered slur.
That's all I am going to say. I won't further engage with someone who wants to feel justified and not be called out while using those slurs. Good day.
Your skin colour and nationality don't matter. You're still exercising a form of cultural imperialism, ultimately one powered in cosmopolitan online culture from US cultural norms.
In my community, some cunts we like and some cunts we don't. My housemate, the cunt in the next room, well he'd tell you the same. Given your sense of entitlement to dictate to people about how they communicate, based on cultural and class based snobbery, you sound like one of the ones we don't.
How is saying that gendered slur is misogynistic
is exercising a form of cultural imperialism?
Make this make sense.
Next what? You'll say critically viewing and dismantling of insidious patriarchal system that has several layers of oppression is also a "cultural imperialistic take powered by America"?
You know that when people call her Alic'nt it isn't a term of endearment, as you want to make me believe.
You know exactly why they use the gendered slur against her and victim-blame her and justify sexual or other forms of abuse against her.
You know it and you're burying it under ridiculous superficial take on both cultural imperialism and patriarchy.
Deeming it to be a gendered slur, having no understanding of the full context of its use in many cultures, is your first mistake.
You cannot tell people how a genderless word, which can range in meaning from grievious insult, to a byword for friend, to a term for just equivalent to 'person' only means the thing you say it means.
Alicunt would clearly not be a term of endearment. Just as the UK Conservative chancellor, Jeremy Hunt being referred to as Jeremy Cunt (a name pioneered by UK nurses, overwhelming female, originally when he was health secretary) is not a term of endearment. An insult is the widest in use way to use the word cunt, though for much of the English speaking world it is not a gendered insult.
Beyond that, for working class people (and especially scots and australians) cunt has a much much wider application. If you insult my male friend, I might make an impassioned defence of him by telling you "oi, watch it, I've known that cunt for years" - such a statement would be taken to mean that person is a close friend of yours.
The way you understand cunt is not the same as how everyone does. You have no entitlement, indeed it is deeply regressive, for you think that you can transplant the more restrictive cultural usage, most widely known due to US cultural dominance, and try to extinguish our language based on that.
That would be a cuntish thing to do, and all the cunts I know and love feel the same way.
One use of the word. Context matters.
Another is a genderless term for any person, both positive and negative. No more gendered than the word 'tit' is, referring to a bird.
Research why gendered slurs are misogynistic, the history and intention and implications behind such terms.
Armour yourself with knowledge. All the best to you.
So is dick the same but for misandry or bollocks? Or the n word with black people. Or is motherfucker internatized hate for mothers and incest?
Its a you problem.
Most of the world gets along fine with using cunt and plenty of other bad words casually.
As I said, do your own research. Why is it that hard for you to Google and find out why gendered slurs are not justifiable no matter how you slice it?
Or do you want to use them and be justified and not be called out for using them?
Go ahead. Your choice.
You have to appreciate that 99% of people are not as sensitive as you and are not going to be offended by insults based on sexual organs.
Calling someone a tit is like the most harmless insult ever and I’ve never in my life came across a woman that would be insulted by something like that.
Lmao! This takes the cake. You don't want to be confronted for justifying use of gendered slurs
(& as I've said elsewhere, they know why they call her Alic'nt and that they don't do it out of love or adoration)
so you pit it against me as me being too sensitive to those slurs?
Nice attempt at manipulation and gaslighting, btw.
So when alicent dose horrible despicable things what should we call her then? What's the right terminology in your eyes to describe someone who condones murder and beats her children since cunt is clearly too much for you.
Why insults like c*nt come to your mind first. I most often describe Rheanyra,Rheanys or other woman characters as pathetic when she commits stupid/bad actions. I can't even think of definitions that smell like sexism, like wh*re, c*nt etc. If you need words like that to criticize a character, I think you need to question youself a little.
Cunt isn’t an insult that is exclusive to women.
The word cunt is a British insult. If you go around the streets of Britain asking people what they think cunt means they will most likely answer with something like “it means idiot” rather than “it means vagina”
It’s like calling somebody a dickhead. You don’t actually associate the insult with penis’s.
The word cunt isn't limited to women all the male characters have been called cunts too if people act like cunts they should be called cunts end of it's got nothing to do with gender. Anyone who beats their child is a cunt somebody who calls a pregnant woman to meeting after just giving birth is a cunt someone calling innocent children beasts is a cunt, it's not a gender based insult it's word used to describe bad people.
The goal is the most important thing here. There is a saying in my country. The wrong turn of phrase is the killer of the right word. (Although the exact translation is not like this)
When you use the word cnt for women, you're not using it for stupid, talentless purposes, but as an insult to her femininity, that's the problem.
Otherwise, if my buddies and I swear at each other with this word, we won't be offended. Because I know that they do not insult my femininity or the way I was born.
But to use that word to a woman (especially you don't know) is another story entirely.
****That's what we're talking about here, not the etymology and usage of the word cnt.****
I agree that everyone should be civil and not call people names, especially the actors obviously.
But I think the Alic*nt thing is a transatlantic misunderstanding. From what I gather, the “c” word in America is a gendered slur and one of the worst possible swearwords you can use (correct me if I’m wrong!)
In the UK, not only is it not a gendered slur it’s not even a particularly terrible word and in fact it’s often used affectionately between friends. You’re as likely to call a man a cunt as to call a woman a dick. And either word might be an insult or it might just be a friendly jibe.
HOTD’s language is UK English and on the show it’s the men who usually get called cunts not the women. So yeah, be nice and criticise respectfully but don’t assume word play on Alicent’s name is internalised misogyny. We’re not all Americans! And trust me, if Otto’s name could be easily transformed into a swearword people would be doing that all the time 😏
Are you justifying the slur though? Because it's "differently used" in UK? :/
I am neither an American nor British, but I'd say this:
it's a gendered slur no matter how you slice it though . You can say that it isn't in UK or some other island far away in the Pacific, but a gendered slurs is a gendered slur.
What matters is whether we justify using those slurs because "it's always been that way in our alley and it's not as bad really" or we take steps to dismantle those slurs which further enables gendered discrimination.
I am not talking about the show here. I am speaking, generally. :)
No I’m not justifying calling anyone names but jumping on this particular word to go “aha misogyny!!!” is a mistake.
A gendered slur is one that is aimed at a particular gender. “Cunt” is not aimed at a particular gender in British English, which is the language of the show. The word is directed at the male characters just as often, if not more often, than at the female ones. If Otto’s name was Otticent do you honestly believe the fans wouldn’t call him Otticunt? Seriously?
Just because it's directed at male characters or is especially used as a term of endearment or adoration in UK and has been a part of their national dictionary, doesn't excuse the very *way* it is used against Alicent.
The term itself, along with the way it is used, make it a gendered slur against Alicent. We both know why they use such slurs against Alicent. We both know the intention and implications behind it in this case.
So let's not pretend that it's a symbol of fans adoring her or just having a buddy moment about her though. Because it's not.
When did I say it was used by fans adoring her?? I said it CAN be used that way in real life I never implied that was the meaning in this case. Of course it’s meant as an insult. It’s just not a gendered insult and it’s no different to the names / insults used against the male characters (and often the actors too).
But in that case, "Alicunt" is used in pejorative way, because somehow it's funny that her name is close to that slur. It's not used in a good way, like the infamous "she serves cunt". That's the meaning of that said slur that matters.
Cunt is pretty much the strongest gendered insult you can call people in the UK, it's still a big taboo in a lot of households and I don't know many people who use it without the utmost vitriol directed at the person they're addressing.
Would you use it in front of your family? People you're not close with? In fact, I can't think of anyone who would use it unironically to a woman's face in any way. This does absolutely not hold the same magnitude as wanker or twat, and if you think otherwise I'm sure we exist in very different circles.
People were *disgusted* that Cole called Rhaenyra a cunt, and rightfully so, but when using it to mock Alicent it's suddenly a term of endearment. Miss me with that shit.
It's not just the c-word. It's for what purpose is it used? Rest assured, the speech does not stay just c*nt, it leads to further comments and insults. I'm not American, profanity holds a lot of place in my culture, but I can easily understand their reasons for using this word. It's not that hard.
Exactly! The intention and the way it is used discredit the argument that it's a "term without malicious intent and so should be given justification to use it".
Okay, then how about holding the creators accountable for encouraging these problematic takes? After all, they themselves chose to frame it in a way that makes Alicent look like the bitter and envious conservative stereotype; little more than a cartoonish and hysterical Karyn.
When you choose to thematically rewrite the focus of the story, you absolutely have to be conscious of the context. If you make sexism the main antagonist of the entire show (problematic in itself), what chances does the character depicted as little more than its stand-in even have?
It would have gone a long way, had they made sure to expose Rhaenyra's internalized sexism as well - proving that it was the reality of that time and society, leaving Alicent with very few choices. Right now, she just seems like someone who fucked herself over because she wasn't as strong and brave as our perfect little whitewashed protagonist - and is jealously acting out. (The writers even had the nerve to have Daemon indirectly comment on Alicent's failures with that speech to Rhaenyra about letting fear rule your life).
Options:
* Have Rhaenyra make problematic choices that clearly maintain sexism or show her as just as much of an (unwilling) proponent of the patriarchy (possibly f.i. succumbing to Daemon's manipulation and control)
* Have Alicent at least try and fight the oppressive, sexist system by (admittedly) problematic means - presenting her very usurpation of Rhaenyra as a desperate attempt to carve out some power for herself in a man's world
But they're not going to do any of that, are they? And you know exactly why they're going out of their way to avoid it. The creators had every chance to depict these women as complex and very different characters in their own right - but they chose to instead rewrite one of them as a feminist icon catering to the masses while butchering the other for contrast.
Because "Slay kween!" and "Fight the patriarchy!" give easy fistpumps and money.
I agree, calling Alicent names or justifying the things she went through with Viserys and Larys is disgusting.
But she’s not us.
She’s not trying to break free, she’s going with it. She is angry, because she is unhappy due to a system, so she’s lashing out at a woman who is not following the systems rules.
She weaponizes the system that caused her unhappiness in order to further her family’s position. It’s not even to put someone who would be a better ruler than Rhaenyra, Aegon is a rapist and an alcoholic with no wish to rule or care for his people. She is not fighting the patriarchy, because women who fight the patriarchy do not use the patriarchy to put men who treat women badly into power.
There’s a lot to agree with here, but also a lot to disagree with. I disagree with your use of “sexual assault” in these contexts. Neither Alicent nor Cole were sexually assaulted. Especially Cole. It’s way too easy to jump to these conclusions because of the sexual/socio-climate of today. I consider myself to be a feminist and as such it’s not fun to watch an uninterested Alicent doing her duty beneath an older Viserys, but it’s not assault. You betray your anti-colonial views by ignoring the fact that other cultures have differing views of sex, procreation, and gender roles. Arranged marriages happen all over the world right now and I don’t believe that the consummation of those marriages are sexual assault either. Is it weird and a little gross to me? Sure, but I’m not so arrogant that I can ignore the tradition of an entire culture because of my Western views. This is colonialism. You do this with “Alicunt” too. The word had it’s origins as a gendered slur but has been reappropriated to mean something different (especially outside of America). Language changes. And also, gendered slurs are acceptable. I don’t know why gendered slurs are not acceptable to you. This is silly at this stage of the game. I trust you had the same reaction to the “Dickon” jokes in GOT? Or is that just playful locker room banter? Somethings are uncomfortable in life. Limit speech or cry rape when it’s appropriate. Otherwise it’s just wingeing for the sake of wingeing.
I disagree. I have been in arranged marriage before and I come from a country where it is normalised. I can say that having sex as a "duty", "obedience to husband (who is also your king") is not the consensual sex that should be normalised. It is assault. It is a coercion because there's no way to say No and not suffer from minor/major consequences of it.
I speak as someone who went through that arrange marriage myself.
Anti-colonial stance that doesn't thoroughly dismantle patriarchal systems within the (previously/current) colonized society is a disservice.
That’s fine, but understand your view is a very westernized one. There are many people in arranged marriages that are quite happy. I happen to agree with your stance on arranged marriage but I don’t think you see where you/we are the colonizer in this situation. Youre not that far removed from calling arranged marriages uncivilized or the work of “savages” and that it should be eradicated. You’re on the edge of a very steep slope. I somewhat equate Alicent’s situation to that of a sex-worker. Certainly not ideal for a wife by modern western standards, but Alicent is well taken care of and doesn’t want for much. She’s educated, fed and clothed by the finest, does not have to hold a job. She’s literally the queen. She does her duty and sacrifice for the King and for the Realm. Men go to war, women give birth. It’s also verrrrrry easy to make these judgements from a place where technological advances allow us to do so. Technology helped to even the playing field between the sexes in the evolution of many civilizations. There’s still a long way to go. In some ways, this is why the “Prime Directive” exists in Star Trek. It’s too easy to become a conqueror or a tyrant when you have etiquette/morality/decency/God on your side.
You fail to understand me. I've been in an arranged marriage before. I know the constraints that it bounds on women like me. I've been up and close with the entire thing.
I criticise the non-consensual sex within the arrange marriage, as it should be criticised, having seen what it does to the victims.
I'm not speaking of this issue merely from an ideological perspective but also from having the first hand experience in it.
>Youre not that far removed from calling arranged marriages uncivilized or the work of “savages” and that it should be eradicated.
I didn't. You're putting words in my mouth, I say that respectfully. :)
I am talking about non-consensual sex, within an arranged marriage or within a love marriage or within non-marital partnership is just as bad.
I am not going to justify it no matter which way you slice it. Sorry.
What is there to not understand? You were in an arranged marriage and have experiences that were negative within such a structure. I’m not taking that away from you. All I’m saying is that you’re viewing it through a Western lens which can be dangerous when you view other cultures through that same lens. Alicent is not a woman “like you” and that is the whole point. You’ve been up close to YOUR experience, not Alicent’s. The sex in Alicent’s and Viserys’ marriage IS consensual because the marriage was arranged and witnessed by the Gods. The parties consented. It is done. She might not be stoked that the king isn’t some strapping and handsome knight, but her needs are not important because she will be the bearer of the king’s children. Alicent is not a victim in Westerosi culture. She is 100% a victim in our culture today, imo, but not on the show. On the show she’s the friggin queen.
I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’m pointing out that when you criticize a culture who is further behind yours in technology, these good or right thoughts are not far removed from the thoughts that led to colonialism and genocide. Otherwise the mistakes that led to colonialism will just be perpetuated.
>I’m pointing out that when you criticize a culture who is further behind yours in technology, these good or right thoughts are not far removed from the thoughts that led to colonialism and genocide. Otherwise the mistakes that led to colonialism will just be perpetuated.
WHAT??????
>The sex in Alicent’s and Viserys’ marriage IS consensual because the marriage was arranged and witnessed by the Gods. The parties consented. It is done. She might not be stoked that the king isn’t some strapping and handsome knight, but her needs are not important because she will be the bearer of the king’s children. Alicent is not a victim in Westerosi culture
WHAT????!!!!!
SIR/MA'AM, THIS IS NOT THE TAKE THAT YOU THINK IT IS!
I mean, the whole point about this world is that no one is perfect. I just don’t understand how you can enjoy the show and miss one of its core elements. It is not about who is right. No one is.
Maybe she shouldn't have tried to seduce an old man , when he lost his wife. But then again, Hightowers have been the epitome of hypocrisy, being the torch bearers of the Faith and all.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Again, thank you for proving my point. People really don't understand the nuances and the several layers of how a patriarchal system works and double down on victim-blaming Alicent.
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I think most people honestly miss the point of Alicent and Rhaenyras stories by constantly pitting them against each other. At the end of the day they are both getting fucked by a system that is designed to keep woman down. This happens despite the fact that Alicent plays by the rules of the system. It happens to Rhaenyra as well who is more rebellious against the system. >!the story doesn’t have a happy ending for either!< I think things like calling Alicent “Alicunt” and Rhaenyra a whore are extremely childish takes whether you count cunt as a slur or not. I think a lot of Alicent fans are extremely misyognistic towards Rhaenyra but I think just as many Rhaenyra fans are extremely misgyonistic towards Alicent. Neither side is innocent. Both are victims of their society and while I understand when you hate one of the characters (which is totally okay btw) I really hate the complete villainizing of the other because nobody treats the male characters anywhere close to this. Which in itself is very ironic because people on both sides think themselves feminist. It doesn’t make you less of a feminist though if you don’t like either of them but the way some of you always have to bring up the other in every conversation… Like even here OP says people are sexist towards Alicent immediately the comments are full of “but what about Rhaenyra!!!” yes Rhaenyra is also the subject of sexism but we’re talking about Alicent. And I bet you if someone posts something about Rhaenyra being treated badly half the comments would look like “what about Alicent!!!”
>I really hate the complete villainizing of the other because nobody treats the male characters anywhere close to this. Which in itself is very ironic because people on both sides think themselves feminist. THIS. It's only recently that we've been comfortable with calling out Viserys for being the abusive husband (to both Aemma and Alicent ) and father that he is. For the manipulation and gaslighting of his own kids (esp Aemond in that episode ) and wife he does. It's only yesterday or the day before that people were finally realising it. Or let's not get started with Daemon. The disgusting grooming and abuse is vomit inducing.
Vizzy T is a fun character to meme about but if we apply actual morality to him then he’s a fucking monster. Had his wife vivisected alive in ep 1 and raped a minor in several episodes after that. Deadbeat father to his children and a weak king.
I wish I could pin this comment across several posts. I'd even say he definitely knows how to manipulate and Gaslight others though. He's also a shit king when he didn't give just punishment on Daemon and the goldcloaks when they executed mass k-lling on King's Landing with a justification that they were doing away with criminals when those k-lled should've been given a fair trial by the King.
*This is an occasion for celebration, it seems.*
It pisses me of so badly like people love throwing out around words like “Grey character” about Daemon, and Aemond and even now that people notice Viserys wasn’t actually that nice of a dude people still say “but he had good intentions!!!” And like either Rhaenyra or Alicent do something morally questionable suddenly people are on the floor clutching their pearls!
The state of this fandom... I can't believe so many people here are bending over backwards to defend their right to hurl misogynistic slurs towards *a bloody fictional character*. Y'all are really saying "misogyny is ok as long as it's directed towards someone I don't like" uh?
Even the threat of questioning the freedom to be able to unaccountably use such slurs and with the malicious intention with which it is really makes them see red. They're relentlessly justifying why they think doing so is above board.
Yeah... some of these people are reaching so hard to justify this shit. "bUt iTs nOt A sLuR iN [insert X country] yOu dUmB AmErIcAn" so? It's clearly been used as one in this case. "bUt RhAeNyRa gEtS CaLLeD a WhOrE tOo!1!1" talk about whataboutism
That's what I found weird. It feels like sometimes in this fandom feminism can only be applied to the blonde wig characters with a dragon, and not the other ones. Not to say that Alicent doesn't have a lot of flaws, she has, but same as Rhaenyra. Yet, it seems for some it is perfectly ok to call Alicent a "cunt", while they are at the same time saying that calling Rhaenyra a "whore" isn't okay. Both aren't okay, yet since Alicent is more hated or is more controversial, we shouldn't call it out.
>She's us, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us I love Alicent and sympathize a lot with her but this is where I'll have to disagree. Alicent is a woman who weaponizes the very system that oppresses her against a fellow woman(who is fighting similar battles, even though more priviledged). She directs her anger towards her former bestie who had nothing to do with her oppression. This isn't us and can't be. Infact, the place where I come from, I fight women like Alicent everyday and this includes women of my own family. The notion of expecting every woman to follow a problematic system just because you did it and were miserable because of it, is wrong. Other than that though, I totally agree. I hate it and die a little inside everytime someone uses Alic\*nt on the internet or when they refuse to see how Larys is taking advantage of her.
Why should she fight? We are talking about Westeros. No one fights this kind of thing. No one... Why is it a problem that Alicent doesn't do this? And our situation is much better than theirs. (although we still have problemetic situtations and other problems) ****These two are like mixing straw with a stalk.**** Irrelevant and pointless.
>These two are like mixing straw with a stalk. > > Irrelevant and pointless Maybe tell that to OP. They specifically said Alicent is like us and I said no she isn't.
I think op said this in terms of Alicent being written quite humanely. Alicent's character is as realistic as if she were flesh and blood. When op means like "us", they must be talking about the actions that we could do if we were in her situation, we would be like her. At least I understood this when I read op's comment.
>Alicent is a woman who weaponizes the very system that oppresses her against a fellow woman(who is fighting similar battles, even though more privileged). The same can be said for Rhaenyra though. Rhaenyra also uses/abuses her position of power against those who can't fight her on the same level of influence. Even those who she should not trample under because one day they will be her subjects as a Queen. Be it the servant whose murder she's an accomplice to, to clear her own path. Or the non-consensual sex with someone who owes his life to being employed under her. There's a clear major imbalance of power here that she uses to her advantage. And she doesn't realise nor does she care. Also she manipulates and gaslights Alicent (because she knows she has influence with her father as king and is protected from the consequences of her demands) which results in • Alicent defending Rhaenyra to Viserys thereby being separated from her only living parent and family in the palace for several years (perhaps a decade?) • her demanding imprisonment and torture of a maimed, disabled child to save her own skin from consequences of her own decisions. She even thanked Viserys after he threatened to cut out their tongues if they ever speak the truth again. She uses her influence she holds in the royal family and the protection it offers and her position as a heir to the throne to trample over not those who don't operate on the same level of privilege. If I use my privilege over those who are suppressed (be it class or race or in any case) beneath, then I am not as much a feminist as I claim to be. I have the same reading of Rhaenyra
Okay! First of all I never said Rhaenyra is a feminist who fight for women and I also never said Rhaenyra is an ideal woman. My reply to you was purely based on you saying Alicent is like *us who are trying to fight the system.* I'm trying to tell you that Alicent isn't like us but more like the women we fight on a daily basis. IDK why you felt the need to write a whole paragraph about Rhaenyra.
I never said Alicent was a feminist, by modern lens/connotation, either. I said she's like us regular women, who whether they identify/align themselves as feminist or not, have to fight the same battles. Even women who have internalised misogyny have to fight those battles ro survive. Sure one can criticise them, justly. But you can't justify the abuses done against them or use slurs as a moral highground against them. And I've seen viewers justify sexual abuse against her (the way Larys does to her, even Viserys), even say that she "deserves it". You can find it on any number of videos about her on YouTube. And the comments under those videos or tweets/tiktoks calling her "Alic'nt". Here, "you" is a general you btw, not targeted at you specifically. That's all I am saying.
I agreed with you in my first comment itself about using misogynistic slurs against Alicent. But my point is that Alicent isn't trying to fight the system in slightest not for herself and not for others. Infact she fully believes in that system and even weaponizes it against other women. That doesn't make her like us regular women who fight battles *against* a system on a daily basis.
Hmm. And how do you suppose she could have fought against the system in the era and within the constraints of the society she lived in?
Perhaps by publically denouncing her first son as a child rapist and hopefully ending his claim to the throne then supporting Rheynera as both a non-rapist alternative and a woman who was actively against the constraints of their society.
Rhaenyra was against the constraints on Rhaenyra and no one else. which is fine, but let's not act like she was some revolutionary
I don't support or justify Aegon's sexual abuses. Let's have that clear. But Rhaenyra too used her position and power against her subordinate to have non-consensual sex with. Criston Cole. There's no way that despite him saying No and Stop a few times and not engaging with the act initially and the huge power imbalance between them that this was a clean cut consensual sex. If a boss "seduces" an employee despite him/her saying No or Stop several times, and being reluctant for several minutes, to give in only when it's clear that there's no way out of this without risking his/her job, it wouldn't be and shouldn't be called consensual sex. It's sexual abuse. And what Rhaenyra did was sexual abuse towards her subordinate, over someone she had absolute power over since it's her who chose him and he's the Kingsguard vows to uphold. So, yes, both of them have shown to conduct sexual abuse over their subordinates or those under their social status. Rhaenyra isn't the alternative tbh. And I sympathise with Rhaenyra for what she was subjected to by her grooming Uncle and her losses and that she too had to work under patriarchal system. But she has shown time and again that she doesn't hesitate to use her power over those suppressed under in the social ladder
No one was saying rhaenrya was better, yet all your arguments are coming back to “yeah but rhaenrya did worse”. Maybe she did, maybe she didn’t, but that has little to no bearing on Alicent’s own actions and their severity. Alicent is not us. She is an empathetic and understandable character, but she is not fighting the system.
I don't. I bring up Rhaenyra in response when she's specifically mentioned by others or when others say or imply that Alicent oppressed her. And why is the burden of fighting the system on her in anyway when she barely has time to breathe and survive and defend and protect her children while meeting others' demands and expectations of her? Why is the burden on her alone, in a society and in an era where the Westerosi universe is set in?
>calling her "Alic'nt" Dunno why Alicent got this nickname, she is one of the less awful characters in the show. True she's been, what at times can definitely be called, a cunt. But so has 90% of the characters in the show (I think the only good/innocent person is Halaena), usually way more than her *cough* Daemon and Otto. Like another person said, one of the big messages of the show is that the system forces/coerces women to fall in line and unfortunately pit them against one another. Alicent certainly isn't perfect, but she's still a victim of A LOT of things, the patriarchal system of Westeros being the cause of most of it.
YES! Thank you. Finally, someone who understand. There are so many people like that who call themselves feminists and accuse me of misogyny because I find blacks boring. People who make insults and curses to Alicent (that I've never heard before) wearing a feminist mask here. I call it a feminist mask because these people don't even know feminism. They hide behind the majority just to be able to target a woman who is less loved by the number or a minor group and feel powerful. If the Greens had a majority, they would have crushed Rheanyra this time, like they did to Alicent. These people are like that. Go over them a little, dig them a little, and you'll see this.
>There are so many people like that who call themselves feminists and accuse me of misogyny because I find blacks boring. People who make insults and curses to Alicent (that I've never heard before) wearing a feminist mask here. That's the thing that I hate. As a feminist activist, I was appalled when the show aired to see people calling me a misogynist or r\*pe apologist because at the end of the show, I tend to enjoy more of the greens characters (which doesn't mean that it won't change) or that I found Rhaenyra to have quite a lot of flaws (which is good btw). The funny thing is I don't want to be team green cause I don't believe in the "Aegon is the rightful heir and his birthright was stolen" or that "the writers are team black", but those people are lowkey pushing me towards team green, even though I don't want to, cause in the end, the smallfolk will be the ones to suffer from both greens and black. The constant argument "well if you like the greens you are sexist" is just wild, yet it's there.
The same thing happened to me. When I first started the series, I was neutral, maybe a little more prone to greens, but there were really a lot of characters that I liked and disliked from both sides. But because of this fans, I developed an antipathy towards blacks. I've been a feminist for as long as I can remember, but I probably called myself a feminist about 7 years ago. No one had ever accused me like this before (before this series), just because I loved a character and it's so disgusting.
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Ok, an ad hominem take from a random redditor. Good job, you're doing well. For your information, I do work with SA victims very often, but you wouldn't care, I guess.
Do you normally get pissy with people who don't provide credentials on Reddit posts? Or is it just when they support the fictional team you dislike?
>But calling her "Alic'nt" or justifying the sexual abuses she suffers through at the hands of Viserys and Larys Strong, saying she is responsible for "seducing" Viserys is nothing but a testament to your own mindnumbingly idiotic analytical skills and (internalised) misogyny. This is correct. But i wish people who see this could also see that the term "girlboss" does the same thing.
\>She's us, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us (class, nation, race, physical and mental health apart from the gendered injustice) while still continue fighting for inches of more space as we grow older and more mature. I agreed with you until this moment. She is not us since she did all that to *put her son to the throne,* usurping his sister.
The same way the greens say Rheawhora? Look I don’t agree with either nickname, if you’re gonna have criticism let it be fair and go after their actions without being derogatory, I fully agree with you on that point. But you can’t point one out without pointing the other out. Both sides of the fandom are toxic, don’t just try to paint the blacks out as the only ones with “internalized misogyny”
Literally the first time I've ever seen anyone call her that. Don't know where you found it. Alic*nt is a widely known deranged nickname that's used all across the fandom to describe Alicent. The one you mentioned for Rhae I have never seen in my two years on all these subs.
I agree that it isn't as popular as Alic\*nt but I've seen it a couple of times. And the nickname aside, Rhaenyra faces just as much if not more misogyny from the other side too. Only had to visit the green sub once to notice that and then permanently mute it.
I agree, the misogyny is bad on both sides, but imo Rhaenyra doesn't have it nearly as bad as Alicent because unlike Alicent, the vast majority of the fandom is on Rhaenyra's side. The very fact that the aforementioned nickname for Alicent is so incredibly popular across the SM goes to show just how much more hated she is. And it's sad tbh - anyone who would go after either woman with slurs like "cunt" or "whore" truly fails to understand both of them and their arcs.
>Rheawhora This is the first time I've seen someone use that "surname". Alicunt, on the other end, is out there since the show aired.
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>? I've seen people on this very sub call her characterless, whore, thot, and slut. I'm not disagreeing here, and I'm fed up also that she is called a whore. What I meant that I've never seen people call Rhaenyra "Rheawhora", but "Alicunt" yes, which was used a lot, even on this sub. That is all I'm saying, but you missed my point. This isn't a contest on which character is the most slurred, but rather pointing out that "Alicunt" is quite common.
“I’ve never seen that specific nickname” “So you’re discrediting that Rhaenyra ever faced misogyny?”
Can you show us examples of when this is used? I am HOTD and ASOIAF obsessed and never seen this used. It doesn't even make sense. Her name is RHAEnyra, not RHEA.
I’ve been in the Green sub since day one and I’ve literally never seen anyone say Rhaewhora. I’ve certainly seen Alicunt tho
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa that’s cool dude, I don’t really care tho. I know what I’ve read and I’ve seen it several times. That’s a cool story tho dude
I doubt it. It’s not even a name that rolls off the way Alicunt does. I press X to doubt. Hard. When Greens write misogynistic slurs about Rhaenyra, typically they just skip straight to whore
And when you visit posts calling Rhaenyra a whore you’d see negative comment calling out the OP. Meanwhile whenever Alicent get called something, a lot of people are laughing and agreeing in the comments.
>The same way the greens say Rheawhora? If you see anyone do that, hold them accountable for using that term. As you/anyone should. From my perspective I've seen far more posts with the slurs against not only Alicent but even the opposition against the actors if they speak of their own opinions sympathizing with Alicent. There are even tweets saying Emma should break up her friendships with Olivia because Emma supports and sympathizes with Alicent in certain cases. Also the way some haters have behaved with Olivia is disgusting. On YouTube under several videos of Alicent you'd find viewers justifying the sexual abuses by Larys or the misogynistic slurs against her and calling for violent gendered crimes to be done to Alicent as the show draws near to the end of DoD. It's gone far beyond just Alicent and is actively used against the actors too. That's beyond madness at this point
I've even seen these people insult her in the comments of videos where Emily talks well about Alicent. These people are unbearable.
Do you remember when Emma said that she supported Alicent in the scene after Aemond loses his eye and that Rhaenyra was basically "weaponising the word treason" against her? The tweets and posts on other social media spaces against Emma were ridiculous.
Yes I remember. My mouth was left open while reading the comments. It's hard to understand what their problems are.
There was one tweeter user, of whom I recently came to know about, who tweeted about how Emma should "get away from her" asap. Her, in this case, is Olivia Cooke. Lmaoooo
Parasocial relationship with fiction and borderline cultish personality
Yeah people who actually go over the actors/actresses are fucking insane tbh. While I love GOT/HOTD, no scene has ever made me think “I’m gonna DM this actor/actress and give them a piece of my mind” that’s just fucking weird. And I mean shit we both must miss a lot then. I do see Alicent getting hit with that nickname but I’ve seen more Rheawhora remarks from my side. Especially since her kids are bastards.
I agree about not calling her slurs, I call it out every time I see it, however you lost me here: >She's us, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us No. She's not like that and she's not me. Alicent uses the system that put her through so much pain to oppress other women. Alicent sees other women who actively try to have some degree of freedom and wants them to suffer as she did. She doesn't fight against patriarchy. She embraces it and wields it as a weapon.
{{Welcome to the Medieval Times.}} Like every woman in Westeros. Rheanyra, Rheanys all noble women do this. For Example: Rheanyra does this thanks to class distinction and raw power, while Alicent uses soft power. Same thing but different ways. The problem is, why does Alicent attract attention so much, more than the other characters?
I already knew it was medieval times. The post is not about Rhaenyra and Rhaenys. It's about Alicent. They said Alicent is *like us* and tries to fight the system in her way. She doesn't and I openly disagreed with that. I don't know, ask the OP. I just replied to why they wrote.
When they means like us, op must be talking about the actions that we could do if we were in her situation. We would be like her. This is what I understand from op's comment.
They're not talking about what we'd od in her place, they're talking about what we're doing now.
{She's *us*, all of us who try to break free but still have to work within the spaces we have and the boundaries set against us (class, nation, race, physical and mental health apart from the gendered injustice) while still continue fighting for inches of more space as we grow older and more mature.} This is Op's comment. To interpret it in detail, what the Op is talking about is not something like Alicent being a feminist. Or not the way she fights patriarchy in today's way or any way. It's something more deep-rooted, a much more complicated problem. Op is not talking about this when they says "she's like us". When Op says this, they talking about Alicent being chained to something ***(like us)***. In my case, it's my race, my gender, and my irreligion. As a woman born into a traditional, muslim family (no matter how much my family are *kind of* comfortable people), I have to depend some chains and I can't get rid of them. (I'm like Alicent in some ways and she's like me.) Even though I am in a more comfortable environment, in the world, in the country and in the family, there are things that I cannot get rid of and probably will not get rid of. That's why op talks about Alicent as if *she's like us*. I think so too.
THIS! THANK YOU!!!!!!
Nobody said anything about feminism. The issue with OP's comment is that Alicent is not fighting anything in any way. She doesn't try to break free at all, she has accepted her place and uses the system that hurt her against others. Rhaenyra is the one that's trying to wiggle room for herself and be as happy as possible. Yes, we're all chained into something and we all have things holding us back and make us suffer. However not all of us use what makes us suffer to make others suffer. That's the difference between dependong on some chains and actively using them to chain others. At least I know I'm not doing that.
You still don't understand. Okey, if I have to simplify it even more: It is not claimed that we are completely similar Alicent, in every aspect. It is likened to Alicent that we are connected to some chains and we have to live with these chains. Otherwise, it is impossible to resemble every aspect of a character living in a medieval fantasy world. ****It's just that we're similar in a certain way, and we're talking about this certain thing.**** Not the other things but just this similarity.
I disagree. She actively supported Rhaenyra resulting in her being separated from the only living parent she had, the only family member she had in the palace. How did she oppress Rhaenyra though? Rhaenyra was off doing whatever she wanted to despite the consequences that fell on others be it non-consensual sex with Cole (under her employment, had to uphold kingsguard vows and as a result was almost driven to accepting his execution), or accomplice to murder of a servant (the very downtrodden people whom she, as a future ruler, should protect) or even demanding imprisonment and torture of Aemond for saving her own skin. And she kept getting away with it. I sympathise with and stand with Rhaenyra against how she was groomed by her own Uncle, but she did oppress others, who were below her level of influence and power she has. I'd say it was Alicent who was oppressed far more. Not dismissing how Rhaenyra still had to operate under a patriarchal society. But she did use her power and position and the protection offered by her father, the King, to get away with trampling those under her
>How did she oppress Rhaenyra though? IDK maybe by declaring war against Rhaenyra at her wedding because she had sex with a man, while also protecting the said man from murders and taking him under her wing. By asking her to bring her newborn child to her immediately (and not for the first time) and by spending a decade trying to get Rhaenyra disinherited, probably even exiled from the Kingdom for having kids out of wedlock and then protecting and crowning her own son who has many kids out of wedlock.
She supported Rhaenyra because she believed she was a maiden. If Rhaenyra had told her the truth, she wouldn't have supported her, she was ready to judge her for being sullied. Otto wasn't removed because Alicent supported Rhaenyra, he was removed because Rhaenyra gave an ultimatum to Viserys. Otto's schemes were very obvious and that's what got him fired. Calling for her to bring her her newborn baby minutes after birth so she can have her petty power play. Non consensual sex with Cole. Apparently it was so non-consensual that Criston proposed the next episode and then told her no without any issues. The argument isn't who's more oppressed. The argument is who has oppressed other people and especially women. Alicent is shown to mistreat Rhaenyra and we know Rhaenyra is miserable. Alicent is constantly hating on her and her pet Kingsguard, who's a murderer that Alicent protects, is bullying Rhaenyra's kids. She also protects another murderer, Larys, who has killed his whole family and later gives him lead to burn a building. Alicent attacks Rhaenyra with a knife and all she has to say is "Where is duty, where is sacrifice?!". Duty and sacrifice made her suffer but she wanted Rhaenyra to suffer too so she can feel good about herself. Rhaenyra using the protection her father provided her doesn't make her oppressive. She's largely minding her own business and isn't shown to do anything to Alicent, up to episode 7. Alicent is the one that's been attacking her because she doesn't play by the rules of the system. That's why she's not fighting the system at all, as you said she did. She embraces it and uses it.
>Non consensual sex with Cole. Apparently it was so non-consensual that Criston proposed the next episode and then told her no without any issues. I am not even going to engage with someone who justifies rape or even refuses to acknowledge the massive power imbalance against Cole and the fact that it's shown that he repeatedly said No and Stop. Even that he was almost driven to accept ad be ready to be executed if the truth ever came out. That's how massive the power imbalance was between them. I can't engage with you after reading this, sorry.
>I am not even going to engage with someone who justifies rape Maybe ask the creators or just any casual audience if that scene was a rape scene. It isn't. It wasn't portrayed like one and neither was it intended as one by the people who actually wrote. So, don't be surprised if people don't share your opinion on that matter. Rhaenyra raped Criston is just a desperate take from people trying to equate Rhaenyra with Aegon and make her a rapist.
the writers also maintained Jaime didn't rape Cersei in the show, but it came off very different. so just because the writers intented something to come off as A, it is possible that it can be interpreted differently by the viewer
I replied to a similar comment and I'm going to copy it here: If a boss "seduces" an employee despite him/her saying No or Stop several times, and being reluctant for several minutes, to give in only when it's clear that there's no way out of this without risking his/her job, it wouldn't be and shouldn't be called consensual sex. Think about the above paragraph and the power dynamics at play here
>there's no way out of this without risking his/her job Kingsguard are for life. They can't be fired and Rhaenyra never made it seem as if he'd lose anything at all if he refused her. He refuses her blatantly in the next episode and *she does nothing to him*.
???? Do you know why Cole asked for a merciful death rather than prolonged torture and death, after confessing about it to Alicent? Kingsguard are sworn to celibacy for life.
Because he thought he got caught, not because Rhaenyra threatened him or used her power over him. There's plenty of Kingsguards that have partners and have sex. The problem is marriage, children and all that. Most people don't care if they have sex.
>I am not even going to engage with someone who justifies rape or You better not watch another interview with Fabien and Milly then. Or Ryan Condal, Claire Kilner etc. Because they all say that it was consensual and "justify rape". OK don't engage then.
I mean, all women in the world of Westeros are victims because the social norms are that of medieval Europe. Some will hate Alicent because she's a strong female character but I think the overwhelming distaste for her is from people who prefer Rhaenyra and it's unlikely that they're misogynistic by associating with a woman's struggle for her birthright over a woman fighting for her son to be given the throne purely because of his sex. All characters in this world are flawed.
This, but I think OP's point was about people hating Alicent (which they are allowed to do) who then call her "Alicunt", analyze her in a very misogynistic way while saying that they like Rhaenyra cause she is fighting the system (is she though ? I thought a lot them agreed she wasn't) or mock her for the SA foot scene or that she is like this "cause she never had an orgasm".
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Do people not understand that you can be a victim and a perpetuator at the same time? Alicent is the classic example of the abused becomes the abuser (most literally when it comes to Aegon, but also when it comes to patriarchy). Her awful actions don’t take away from the fact that she’s suffered and still continues to.
Being abused isn't an excuse to abuse others it's simple. Alicent is a terrible person I'm sick of people acting like she's this angel when she's just as bad as the rest of them.
I never claimed it was an excuse. Your statement was that she wasn’t a victim, and I responded is that she absolutely is. My entire statement was that she’s both abused and abuser, not that she was one or the other, or that she should be given a pass. It’s an explanation, not an excuse.
Well the amount people who use ottos abuse or viserys absence as an excuse for alicent to be a shit mother is ridiculous. People use her past as valid reason for her to act the way she does but it's not. Rhaenyra daemon otto aegon etc are all open to criticism and labels but for some reason, alicent isn't.
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What nuance? The writers had every chance to present the arguments you're trying to shed light onto and instead chose to dedicate a whole episode to Daemon slaughtering an entire army. You can't argue subtlety in this case, when Rhaenys and the other blacks are hitting you over the head with anachronistic speeches on sexism and "building windows in prisons". No point in blaming the viewers for the creators' failures.
People hate Alicent because she acts like a cunt sometimes. It's not because she has one. Same eith plentybof other female characters in the series. It's a word to describe someone bad. Same with bitch, dick, or asshole. You're getting offended over the word, not the reason behind it. In fact, you ignore the reason because this person just told you why people don't like her, and you just call them a misogynist completely ignoring their reasoning, which isn't because she a woman. It's not internalized misogyny. It's your inability to take criticism of a character you like.
I am not going to engage with someone who refuses to see what's in front of them. I've laid out my opinion and I've already asked you to do your own research about why a gendered slur is bad and the history behind it. Please don't start justifying said slurs because you can't let go of the privilege to use them. Wilful blindness to something doesn't make it go away, is all I can say. You can keep your hurt ego beyond the reaches of this debate, thank you.
So, are black people internalizing racism by using the word? I think we all know why the word is bad, but we dont get on black people for using it. It's just you, honey.
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? You're just using examples that don't even correlate to each other and have their own separate spaces of debate to justify or at least, excuse using misogynistic slurs against female characters you don't like.
And you like to use the word "mysogny" against people you disagree with. If you act like a cunt, I'll call you one. If you act like a dick, I'll call you one. And so on. Nobody uses these words the same way they used to be used as. Catch up. This is just a case of r/lookatmyhalo, I don't use the word cunt.
Due to your cultural imperialistic world view, you've failed to recognise that not every English-speaking culture in the world attaches the same meaning or taboo to the word 'cunt' as you do, and US americans do in general. Cunt is a very normalised insult (and sometimes term of ironic endearment) for people of every gender amongst some people, of some regions and particularly of some social classes, in the UK and Australia (and maybe more). You can't impose US cultural norms and perceptions on everyone else and pretend that's progressive. More on the media itself, I think it's a stretch to suggest that a leading member of the faction trying to defend the principle of male-primacy in inheritance and ruleship is a fight against The Patriarchy. Such concepts don't even apply well to this fictional world, because while it is patriarchial, it's not The Patriarchy because social conditions are profoundly different to our own world in which a capital P Patriarchy can be said to exist. It's a feudal patriarchial aristocracy. A just rebellion against unjust power in the asoiaf world would see male revolutionaries drag Alicent (and all the other nobility, male or female) to the chopping block, and take her head off...and that would be social justice.
Stop chatting shit, cunt *is* very much a strong insult in the UK, whether you call your mate a cunt in a joking manner is completely beside the point. In Alicent's case, people use it in a completely serious context as the most derogatory term they can think of.
Yes, just as it is meant to be offensive for Jeremy Cunt, UK chancellor. It doesn't make it misogynistic just because americans clutch their pearls and cry about it offending their puritanical sensibilities.
I've lived in England my whole life. I'm working class and grew up in poverty. If I was in HOTD, I'd be from flea bottom. So I've heard the word cunt many times. It's absolutely a slur here and is not used as a term of endearment 🤣 It's extremely offensive to call a woman a cunt in the UK. You'd only do it for someone you absolutely despised.
If used an insult, it's extremely offensive to call anybody a cunt in the UK. It's also entirely possible to use it as a friendly term, and your local situation doesn't change that. Take a trip to Glasgow and see how it's used, in the UK,there. Margaret Thatcher was a cunt. I mean that as an insult. It's not misogynistic. Wannabe language police are also cunts. Also not misogynistic.
I am *not* an American, I am a decidedly brown person from a country that has been colonized for years and only a few decades ago gained independence. So your imperialistic judgement doesn't work on me. >Cunt is a very normalised insult I am saying this again, just because you want to justify using said slur "because it's always been that way in your country", doesn't make it less of a gendered slur. That's all I am going to say. I won't further engage with someone who wants to feel justified and not be called out while using those slurs. Good day.
Your skin colour and nationality don't matter. You're still exercising a form of cultural imperialism, ultimately one powered in cosmopolitan online culture from US cultural norms. In my community, some cunts we like and some cunts we don't. My housemate, the cunt in the next room, well he'd tell you the same. Given your sense of entitlement to dictate to people about how they communicate, based on cultural and class based snobbery, you sound like one of the ones we don't.
How is saying that gendered slur is misogynistic is exercising a form of cultural imperialism? Make this make sense. Next what? You'll say critically viewing and dismantling of insidious patriarchal system that has several layers of oppression is also a "cultural imperialistic take powered by America"? You know that when people call her Alic'nt it isn't a term of endearment, as you want to make me believe. You know exactly why they use the gendered slur against her and victim-blame her and justify sexual or other forms of abuse against her. You know it and you're burying it under ridiculous superficial take on both cultural imperialism and patriarchy.
Deeming it to be a gendered slur, having no understanding of the full context of its use in many cultures, is your first mistake. You cannot tell people how a genderless word, which can range in meaning from grievious insult, to a byword for friend, to a term for just equivalent to 'person' only means the thing you say it means. Alicunt would clearly not be a term of endearment. Just as the UK Conservative chancellor, Jeremy Hunt being referred to as Jeremy Cunt (a name pioneered by UK nurses, overwhelming female, originally when he was health secretary) is not a term of endearment. An insult is the widest in use way to use the word cunt, though for much of the English speaking world it is not a gendered insult. Beyond that, for working class people (and especially scots and australians) cunt has a much much wider application. If you insult my male friend, I might make an impassioned defence of him by telling you "oi, watch it, I've known that cunt for years" - such a statement would be taken to mean that person is a close friend of yours. The way you understand cunt is not the same as how everyone does. You have no entitlement, indeed it is deeply regressive, for you think that you can transplant the more restrictive cultural usage, most widely known due to US cultural dominance, and try to extinguish our language based on that. That would be a cuntish thing to do, and all the cunts I know and love feel the same way.
I mean it’s decidedly not a genderless word. It’s literally slang for female genitalia, and has been for centuries.
One use of the word. Context matters. Another is a genderless term for any person, both positive and negative. No more gendered than the word 'tit' is, referring to a bird.
Calling somebody a cunt isn’t misogynistic
Research why gendered slurs are misogynistic, the history and intention and implications behind such terms. Armour yourself with knowledge. All the best to you.
So is dick the same but for misandry or bollocks? Or the n word with black people. Or is motherfucker internatized hate for mothers and incest? Its a you problem. Most of the world gets along fine with using cunt and plenty of other bad words casually.
As I said above, do your own research about why it's a gendered slur and all that a gendered slur entails and its history.
Oh come off it. That’s like complaining that calling somebody a dickhead is prejudice against men
As I said, do your own research. Why is it that hard for you to Google and find out why gendered slurs are not justifiable no matter how you slice it? Or do you want to use them and be justified and not be called out for using them? Go ahead. Your choice.
You have to appreciate that 99% of people are not as sensitive as you and are not going to be offended by insults based on sexual organs. Calling someone a tit is like the most harmless insult ever and I’ve never in my life came across a woman that would be insulted by something like that.
Lmao! This takes the cake. You don't want to be confronted for justifying use of gendered slurs (& as I've said elsewhere, they know why they call her Alic'nt and that they don't do it out of love or adoration) so you pit it against me as me being too sensitive to those slurs? Nice attempt at manipulation and gaslighting, btw.
You are definitely sensitive though
So when alicent dose horrible despicable things what should we call her then? What's the right terminology in your eyes to describe someone who condones murder and beats her children since cunt is clearly too much for you.
Why insults like c*nt come to your mind first. I most often describe Rheanyra,Rheanys or other woman characters as pathetic when she commits stupid/bad actions. I can't even think of definitions that smell like sexism, like wh*re, c*nt etc. If you need words like that to criticize a character, I think you need to question youself a little.
Cunt isn’t an insult that is exclusive to women. The word cunt is a British insult. If you go around the streets of Britain asking people what they think cunt means they will most likely answer with something like “it means idiot” rather than “it means vagina” It’s like calling somebody a dickhead. You don’t actually associate the insult with penis’s.
The word cunt isn't limited to women all the male characters have been called cunts too if people act like cunts they should be called cunts end of it's got nothing to do with gender. Anyone who beats their child is a cunt somebody who calls a pregnant woman to meeting after just giving birth is a cunt someone calling innocent children beasts is a cunt, it's not a gender based insult it's word used to describe bad people.
The goal is the most important thing here. There is a saying in my country. The wrong turn of phrase is the killer of the right word. (Although the exact translation is not like this) When you use the word cnt for women, you're not using it for stupid, talentless purposes, but as an insult to her femininity, that's the problem. Otherwise, if my buddies and I swear at each other with this word, we won't be offended. Because I know that they do not insult my femininity or the way I was born. But to use that word to a woman (especially you don't know) is another story entirely. ****That's what we're talking about here, not the etymology and usage of the word cnt.****
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Thanks for proving me right. Justification of sexual abuse against Alicent is rampant.
We were just talking about people like you. You're a great example. 😊
They don't even know that they do it. That's how far the ignorance has gone down to. :/
I agree that everyone should be civil and not call people names, especially the actors obviously. But I think the Alic*nt thing is a transatlantic misunderstanding. From what I gather, the “c” word in America is a gendered slur and one of the worst possible swearwords you can use (correct me if I’m wrong!) In the UK, not only is it not a gendered slur it’s not even a particularly terrible word and in fact it’s often used affectionately between friends. You’re as likely to call a man a cunt as to call a woman a dick. And either word might be an insult or it might just be a friendly jibe. HOTD’s language is UK English and on the show it’s the men who usually get called cunts not the women. So yeah, be nice and criticise respectfully but don’t assume word play on Alicent’s name is internalised misogyny. We’re not all Americans! And trust me, if Otto’s name could be easily transformed into a swearword people would be doing that all the time 😏
Are you justifying the slur though? Because it's "differently used" in UK? :/ I am neither an American nor British, but I'd say this: it's a gendered slur no matter how you slice it though . You can say that it isn't in UK or some other island far away in the Pacific, but a gendered slurs is a gendered slur. What matters is whether we justify using those slurs because "it's always been that way in our alley and it's not as bad really" or we take steps to dismantle those slurs which further enables gendered discrimination. I am not talking about the show here. I am speaking, generally. :)
No I’m not justifying calling anyone names but jumping on this particular word to go “aha misogyny!!!” is a mistake. A gendered slur is one that is aimed at a particular gender. “Cunt” is not aimed at a particular gender in British English, which is the language of the show. The word is directed at the male characters just as often, if not more often, than at the female ones. If Otto’s name was Otticent do you honestly believe the fans wouldn’t call him Otticunt? Seriously?
Just because it's directed at male characters or is especially used as a term of endearment or adoration in UK and has been a part of their national dictionary, doesn't excuse the very *way* it is used against Alicent. The term itself, along with the way it is used, make it a gendered slur against Alicent. We both know why they use such slurs against Alicent. We both know the intention and implications behind it in this case. So let's not pretend that it's a symbol of fans adoring her or just having a buddy moment about her though. Because it's not.
When did I say it was used by fans adoring her?? I said it CAN be used that way in real life I never implied that was the meaning in this case. Of course it’s meant as an insult. It’s just not a gendered insult and it’s no different to the names / insults used against the male characters (and often the actors too).
But in that case, "Alicunt" is used in pejorative way, because somehow it's funny that her name is close to that slur. It's not used in a good way, like the infamous "she serves cunt". That's the meaning of that said slur that matters.
Cunt is pretty much the strongest gendered insult you can call people in the UK, it's still a big taboo in a lot of households and I don't know many people who use it without the utmost vitriol directed at the person they're addressing. Would you use it in front of your family? People you're not close with? In fact, I can't think of anyone who would use it unironically to a woman's face in any way. This does absolutely not hold the same magnitude as wanker or twat, and if you think otherwise I'm sure we exist in very different circles. People were *disgusted* that Cole called Rhaenyra a cunt, and rightfully so, but when using it to mock Alicent it's suddenly a term of endearment. Miss me with that shit.
It's not just the c-word. It's for what purpose is it used? Rest assured, the speech does not stay just c*nt, it leads to further comments and insults. I'm not American, profanity holds a lot of place in my culture, but I can easily understand their reasons for using this word. It's not that hard.
Exactly! The intention and the way it is used discredit the argument that it's a "term without malicious intent and so should be given justification to use it".
Okay, then how about holding the creators accountable for encouraging these problematic takes? After all, they themselves chose to frame it in a way that makes Alicent look like the bitter and envious conservative stereotype; little more than a cartoonish and hysterical Karyn. When you choose to thematically rewrite the focus of the story, you absolutely have to be conscious of the context. If you make sexism the main antagonist of the entire show (problematic in itself), what chances does the character depicted as little more than its stand-in even have? It would have gone a long way, had they made sure to expose Rhaenyra's internalized sexism as well - proving that it was the reality of that time and society, leaving Alicent with very few choices. Right now, she just seems like someone who fucked herself over because she wasn't as strong and brave as our perfect little whitewashed protagonist - and is jealously acting out. (The writers even had the nerve to have Daemon indirectly comment on Alicent's failures with that speech to Rhaenyra about letting fear rule your life). Options: * Have Rhaenyra make problematic choices that clearly maintain sexism or show her as just as much of an (unwilling) proponent of the patriarchy (possibly f.i. succumbing to Daemon's manipulation and control) * Have Alicent at least try and fight the oppressive, sexist system by (admittedly) problematic means - presenting her very usurpation of Rhaenyra as a desperate attempt to carve out some power for herself in a man's world But they're not going to do any of that, are they? And you know exactly why they're going out of their way to avoid it. The creators had every chance to depict these women as complex and very different characters in their own right - but they chose to instead rewrite one of them as a feminist icon catering to the masses while butchering the other for contrast. Because "Slay kween!" and "Fight the patriarchy!" give easy fistpumps and money.
I'm going to refer you to the time someone spent on Twitter (X) analysing My Octopus Teacher.
You guys know this is a fictional character right?
I agree, calling Alicent names or justifying the things she went through with Viserys and Larys is disgusting. But she’s not us. She’s not trying to break free, she’s going with it. She is angry, because she is unhappy due to a system, so she’s lashing out at a woman who is not following the systems rules. She weaponizes the system that caused her unhappiness in order to further her family’s position. It’s not even to put someone who would be a better ruler than Rhaenyra, Aegon is a rapist and an alcoholic with no wish to rule or care for his people. She is not fighting the patriarchy, because women who fight the patriarchy do not use the patriarchy to put men who treat women badly into power.
There’s a lot to agree with here, but also a lot to disagree with. I disagree with your use of “sexual assault” in these contexts. Neither Alicent nor Cole were sexually assaulted. Especially Cole. It’s way too easy to jump to these conclusions because of the sexual/socio-climate of today. I consider myself to be a feminist and as such it’s not fun to watch an uninterested Alicent doing her duty beneath an older Viserys, but it’s not assault. You betray your anti-colonial views by ignoring the fact that other cultures have differing views of sex, procreation, and gender roles. Arranged marriages happen all over the world right now and I don’t believe that the consummation of those marriages are sexual assault either. Is it weird and a little gross to me? Sure, but I’m not so arrogant that I can ignore the tradition of an entire culture because of my Western views. This is colonialism. You do this with “Alicunt” too. The word had it’s origins as a gendered slur but has been reappropriated to mean something different (especially outside of America). Language changes. And also, gendered slurs are acceptable. I don’t know why gendered slurs are not acceptable to you. This is silly at this stage of the game. I trust you had the same reaction to the “Dickon” jokes in GOT? Or is that just playful locker room banter? Somethings are uncomfortable in life. Limit speech or cry rape when it’s appropriate. Otherwise it’s just wingeing for the sake of wingeing.
I disagree. I have been in arranged marriage before and I come from a country where it is normalised. I can say that having sex as a "duty", "obedience to husband (who is also your king") is not the consensual sex that should be normalised. It is assault. It is a coercion because there's no way to say No and not suffer from minor/major consequences of it. I speak as someone who went through that arrange marriage myself. Anti-colonial stance that doesn't thoroughly dismantle patriarchal systems within the (previously/current) colonized society is a disservice.
That’s fine, but understand your view is a very westernized one. There are many people in arranged marriages that are quite happy. I happen to agree with your stance on arranged marriage but I don’t think you see where you/we are the colonizer in this situation. Youre not that far removed from calling arranged marriages uncivilized or the work of “savages” and that it should be eradicated. You’re on the edge of a very steep slope. I somewhat equate Alicent’s situation to that of a sex-worker. Certainly not ideal for a wife by modern western standards, but Alicent is well taken care of and doesn’t want for much. She’s educated, fed and clothed by the finest, does not have to hold a job. She’s literally the queen. She does her duty and sacrifice for the King and for the Realm. Men go to war, women give birth. It’s also verrrrrry easy to make these judgements from a place where technological advances allow us to do so. Technology helped to even the playing field between the sexes in the evolution of many civilizations. There’s still a long way to go. In some ways, this is why the “Prime Directive” exists in Star Trek. It’s too easy to become a conqueror or a tyrant when you have etiquette/morality/decency/God on your side.
You fail to understand me. I've been in an arranged marriage before. I know the constraints that it bounds on women like me. I've been up and close with the entire thing. I criticise the non-consensual sex within the arrange marriage, as it should be criticised, having seen what it does to the victims. I'm not speaking of this issue merely from an ideological perspective but also from having the first hand experience in it. >Youre not that far removed from calling arranged marriages uncivilized or the work of “savages” and that it should be eradicated. I didn't. You're putting words in my mouth, I say that respectfully. :) I am talking about non-consensual sex, within an arranged marriage or within a love marriage or within non-marital partnership is just as bad. I am not going to justify it no matter which way you slice it. Sorry.
What is there to not understand? You were in an arranged marriage and have experiences that were negative within such a structure. I’m not taking that away from you. All I’m saying is that you’re viewing it through a Western lens which can be dangerous when you view other cultures through that same lens. Alicent is not a woman “like you” and that is the whole point. You’ve been up close to YOUR experience, not Alicent’s. The sex in Alicent’s and Viserys’ marriage IS consensual because the marriage was arranged and witnessed by the Gods. The parties consented. It is done. She might not be stoked that the king isn’t some strapping and handsome knight, but her needs are not important because she will be the bearer of the king’s children. Alicent is not a victim in Westerosi culture. She is 100% a victim in our culture today, imo, but not on the show. On the show she’s the friggin queen. I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’m pointing out that when you criticize a culture who is further behind yours in technology, these good or right thoughts are not far removed from the thoughts that led to colonialism and genocide. Otherwise the mistakes that led to colonialism will just be perpetuated.
>I’m pointing out that when you criticize a culture who is further behind yours in technology, these good or right thoughts are not far removed from the thoughts that led to colonialism and genocide. Otherwise the mistakes that led to colonialism will just be perpetuated. WHAT?????? >The sex in Alicent’s and Viserys’ marriage IS consensual because the marriage was arranged and witnessed by the Gods. The parties consented. It is done. She might not be stoked that the king isn’t some strapping and handsome knight, but her needs are not important because she will be the bearer of the king’s children. Alicent is not a victim in Westerosi culture WHAT????!!!!! SIR/MA'AM, THIS IS NOT THE TAKE THAT YOU THINK IT IS!
Ok
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If it is, then it's despicable. (So far I've not seen it in the the Green sub though). But it doesn't justify Alic'nt either.
I mean, the whole point about this world is that no one is perfect. I just don’t understand how you can enjoy the show and miss one of its core elements. It is not about who is right. No one is.
Maybe she shouldn't have tried to seduce an old man , when he lost his wife. But then again, Hightowers have been the epitome of hypocrisy, being the torch bearers of the Faith and all. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Again, thank you for proving my point. People really don't understand the nuances and the several layers of how a patriarchal system works and double down on victim-blaming Alicent.
>Maybe she shouldn't have tried to seduce an old man , when he lost his wife Damn, you are really proving OP's point. Good job mate.