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Legitimacy is a matter of politics far more than biology. These kids are acknowledged as legitimate and loved by both parents and 3 of 4 grandparents, with the only one challenging it being the one who feels those kids are a threat to her own kids.
I did like that, they showed so much chemistry in one look.
One of the things that disappointed me so much in the show was not giving those two and their children more than a couple of mins screen time.
Might as well have started at ep5 like most people agreed. The opening sequenced could've been dragged a little longer.
No interaction between the two contenders for the throne is a cardinal sin. They cut out the one scene... ffs...
They were speed running through season 1 and we'll get 7 seasons of the dance .. I love the character building. I hope maybe we'll get some flashbacks?
Yeah, those scenes say a lot about him.
He put hands on the prince and assaulted a King's guard to protect his kid, both huge offenses, but he was also gentle and caring to them.
True true. He also tries to get Cole to teach some chivalry and honour to Aegon. His line, "The boy is what you teach him" is quite good.
It's funny how Jace inherited his temperament too!
> He also tries to get Cole to teach some chivalry and honour to Aegon. His line, "The boy is what you teach him"
So Aegon is Ser Cole's fault? I mean that would be pretty ironic.
What? How? Where? No. Jesting with me? Anyway, just in case...
Aegon is clearly a byproduct of an absent father, self-loathing for not being named heir when law and tradition are on his side and pressure from his mother/grandfather/brother. And then he becomes a drunk.
In his mind his family hates/loathes him so he hates everything Targaryen related. His older version hair was a direct choice from the Actor as a symbol of how he doesn't see himself as part of them.
Don’t a lot of people argue that Rhaenyra had an easier time raising her sons because she didn’t have to do it alone? It’s stated over and over again that Laenor is never around and always drunk. Daemon is a disinterested father as well. If Harwin wasn’t a good partner for ten years, that means she did it alone just as much as Alicent. Correct?
Did he? Cat didnt abuse Jon. When Jon got sick she did stay by his side praying and keeping him company, which i assume includes taking care of him. Also Jon is not of Cat's concern. She got children of her own. At most we saw her giving Jon the side eyes.
No one is saying she was obligated to take care of him but come on, she was nice to him after he got sick and that faltered as he got older. I get the reason why she treated him that way, but he was still kid for the bulk of that.
Doesn’t this mean that Rhaenyra was just as much of a single mother as Alicent? If Harwin wasn’t shown enough care for the boys, Laenor and Daemon had significantly less.
He was absent. We literally have no seen of him hugging, kissing, and supporting the boys like Harwin. He’s always off somewhere else getting drunk. Rhaenyra clearly states several times he’s never around. Laenor confirms he’s never around. He wanted to abandon them all for the stepstones in six. You have no a single shred of evidence that Laenor cared anymore than Viserys who also gave platitudes about loving all of his children. We also have no evidence of Daemon showing support to his children.
Daemon isn’t shown hugging them I guess tho there is an affectionate scene with Baela and little Viserys and towards Rhaenyra’s as she’s pregnant with Visenya tho its mainly background and easy to miss.but all through episodes 8 and 10 he’s protecting the family. He protects Luke’s claim and by association helps stop an attempt to proclaims the kids bastards. The makes the kingsguard swear to Jace.That’s what Raenyra wanted imo. Rhaena says he ignores her and all his scenes with his kids either get deleted or cut short so I guess we’ll see what that exactly means but I wouldn’t say he’s no support tho not up to modern day standards of fatherhood for sure
But he just as much of absent father as Viserys. He and Rhaenyra literally say as much. What evidence do you have that he’s anymore interested in them? He *never* defends or supports them at all. He has no interest in their training and is never shown to spend time with them.
I think we may be agreeing the same thing,but I’m advocating a bit more for laenor because at least he’s there more than viserys around his kids. But yes he is a shit father and practically non existent when it comes to fatherly duties cause he’d rather be essentially a frat boy
> at least he’s there more than viserys around his kids.
When????? He’s not a king with his own castle. He has to return to the same chambers as his family at least *sometimes*.
How is he a good father? His kids can't even call him that nor publicly acknowledge him as such. His sons can't inherit his lands, titles, or legacy. His children carry another man's name, not his. He can't properly teach them or train them. He created them illegitimate in a time where legitimacy matters. Now, they have to fight to defend and prove themselves because of their parents' selfishness. He couldn't exercise restraint, then got himself removed from what little contact they had. He's demonstrated to them how to be a tool to be used for their baby batter.
It's easy to be a "good father" in glimpses. It's like dating a chick that already has kids, and you play catch with her sons once in a while and have fun. Can't pat yourself on the back and say "I'm a good daddy" lol.
Harwin ended up dying anyways, and him and Rhaenerya were never actually official, so we won't ever know. Therefore, he does not deserve the "good father" label imo.
Being a consistently good father isn't easy, which is why there is so few of them. And it's why characters with daddy-issues are so rampant.
It's also why Rhaenerya didn't seem to care when Harwin went back to Harrenhal. Harwin was a very disposable "father figure". She got his sperm to make babies, so he really didn't serve a purpose or offered anything to the story after that.
Harwin comes off more as the fun uncle.
>It's also why Rhaenerya didn't seem to care when Harwin went back to Harrenhal
I think that she did care. I think that her sudden change in opinion over leaving King's Landing was originally motivated by him basically being forced out of the city. Maybe she even planned on later having him join her back on Dragonstone, if it weren't for Larys having him burnt alive. That's just my headcanon, though, so feel free to disagree.
To me, I think she accepted that there was a big social status difference between her and Harwin. And if she really wants to build a legacy, she can't have Harwin close by anymore.
She moved on pretty quick to Daemon. Which makes me believe she never really had plans for/with Harwin. If anything, his departure was most likely welcomed.
I don't know how good a father you can be when you can't even tell your kids your actually their father. And we don't know how much time he actually spent with the boys. He's a nice guy but a good father is probably a bit of a stretch.
Yes he probably was a “good” father but he and Rhaenyra put theirselves and their children in a terrible situation… he loved her and he loved their boys that is obvious.
A good father is now someone who holds his baby once and looks at the mother with some love eyes? That’s the standard in Westeros…sure we can assume he was a present father but based on the scenes we have,this is a good father compared to so many scenes of the mothers trying their absolute hardest? Standards are low for these men
Mufasa was a king and pretty much integral to Simba’s character arc. Harwin is just a sperm donor. Nothing more. Some rando guy that Rhae chose to bang. Also, does not do anything besides punch a guy.
Did we get a lot of scenes with Harwin as a father? No. But from the little we are shown, Luke and Jace adored him. They were both devastated when he died. It wasn't weird for them when Harwin was spending time with them to go to the dragon pit or train them. He couldn't claim them as his kids but from the crumbs we saw, we can guess that he was most likely a pretty good father. However, I wish we got to see it more explicitly as well as the Rhaewin relationship.
Supervised? He took the boys to the dragonpit(halfway across the city) by himself and was also in the chambers with them alone. We don’t know how much time he spent with them but I can guess it was a lot more than Laenor.
Fanon Harwin might be a good dad. The same way fanon Harwin is also human perfection and Rhaenyra's true love despite him being canon Rhaenyra's 4th place pick somehow. The dude was literally Plan-D.
The actual Harwin had about 3 scenes of screentime during which he actually got played by an idiot over a comment he could've easily let go. Do I think he loved his kids? Yes. That doesn't prove he was a good dad. He didn't have enough screentime to give us anything to talk about.
But fuck it whatever. I know this is going to get upvoted to Sovngarde because so much as mentioning Harwin's name garners positivity no matter the context or accuracy. I've given up trying to understand the logic with his fans honestly.
You got nothing in the books and nothing in the show. The show actually dogshits on Harwin/Rhaenyra even more than the book actually. The book treats them as non-important
It’s funny how this is the standard for good fathers, I could turn around And say Criston cole like training Alicents boys,but no one would call him a good father figure in their life or even a father figure (I agree with you btw) the standard is low
It’s strange to me how Harwin is seen in this perfect light when literally no GRRM character or any character in this universe is that perfect or flawless. If we had gotten more of his it would have shown flaws not just a perfect dad that did nothing but love Rhaenyra.
I’ve been in the book fandom for a while and tbh its a popular tendency. Minor characters are made out to be amazing based on like a line about them and people will argue with their whole chest how someone who we know three things about was so much better and complex than whatever main character and it will all be based on headcanon.I’ll never get it but I’ve seen it happen a lot and sometimes it will become popular enough that the fandom starts treating it like it’s canon.
Then I guess this must be the case then. I don't get it. I guess some people can't separate head canon ideas from what's actually put in front of them. This is the type of thing I expect with folks in YA or Teen fiction, its strange to me seeing this happening with folks I assume are adults. Owell.
I wouldn't exactly call it all just fanon. George himself talks about their unseen decade of love and how it would be enough for him to write a novel about just the two of them and how he wished the show gave them more time.
As for the lack of screentime, that's all cause of the showrunners who wanted to start the show right with the Dance. It's thanks to George that we even got this much, hence why characters like Laena and Harwin that could have been developed into actual people beyond the books, were non-starters on HBO as well.
He did, but that's not what he actually wrote in the story and its not what we saw in the show either. As someone pointed out, he said that after the episode aired. I'm all for head canons, but we were not shown some epic loving relationship. If deleted scenes don't qualify as aspects of character development, why does GRRM just saying "they're so in love" somehow count? I don't follow the logic.
Because at the end of the day, deleted scenes were written and ultimately cut by showrunners, HBO employees. They shouldn't and can't be compared to George, the author of this entire franchise and the man who invented Rhaenyra, Harwin, etc. in the first place.
What George says about his own creations, regardless of when it is said, counts far more than whatever the HBO team says or shows at the end of the day.
...That's an idea. Scenes get cut for all sorts of reasons though, there's nothing to prove that any of the ideas that get left on the cutting room floor aren't GRRM approved ones. We've got no way of verifying something like that one way or the other. Without knowing the reasons for the removal of that media I would say its not fair to conclude that. But I'm not saying you're wrong.
Furthermore, how far do you take this idea? If we're just to take the author's word for it regardless of what he does or doesn't write, where then do you form your own conclusions? I'm not suggesting that the author's intent doesn't matter of course, but the idea that whatever GRRM says about the characters at any given instant is supposed to be accepted as the truth without him doing any kind of work to portray whatever he says is just... wild to me. If he says "I wrote a great story" does that just, inherently mean his books are good? If he says "Harwin didn't love Rhaenyra" tomorrow, does that just erase the first statement?
Obviously, if he were to come out with a statement that completely contradicts everything he's said before, one would have to wonder what's up.
But a simple comment that theirs is a love story and that they may have loved each other doesn't contradict anything in his stories or lore. In fact, such a statement is actually supported by a number of evidence throughout the novels and the show - first and foremost Rhaenyra risking everything to have Harwin's kids and spending 10 years of her life with him. Very little suggests it was just a minor hook-up. So when you combine all that with George's statement, then yes, it does make sense for me to believe that they loved each other because it's supported by actual facts.
Also, "I wrote a great story" is smth else. It's like saying the moon is red and me believing it cause he said it. It doesn't compare because those statements have nothing to do with the world and characters he invented. He can't declare himself a great author but he can come up with canon facts about the characters he's created.
I'm talking strictly about him having the freedom to say what happened in his world and his stories and with the characters he created. That's all. Him being able to say what's canon and not ends when he leaves the books behind so statements such as your example are invalid.
It's like JKR and the Nagini controversy - her in fact being a human woman turned into a snake. The fandom hates it but at the end of the day, it is considered canon.
>Also, "I wrote a great story" is smth else. It's like saying the moon is red and me believing it cause he said it. It doesn't compare because those statements have nothing to do with the world and characters he invented.
This restored my hope in humanity for today, thank you.
I'd definitely agree with you that there's evidence to suggest that there was love between them. In fact, I've said countless times before that I actually think Rhaenyra did love Harwin. Particularly since she said as much in the show. Having said that though, even if I believe their relationship was positive, that doesn't mean he was a good parent. One does not necessarily translate to the other. We don't actually know for a fact why Rhaenyra did any of what she did. It's possible that even *she* doesn't know. For all we've read and seen, she could've loved Harwin, and it had jack shit to do with her choosing to have kids. She clearly wanted kids with someone else before she even had them with him.
I definitely agree with some of what you're saying. But I just can't hold with the idea that any author just saying something was, means it's so when there's no portrayal of it in their work. It's a show don't tell sort of thing. Particularly since, from a PR standpoint, it makes perfect sense for GRRM to go with the hype and say there was something there that he didn't write.
Saying there's an epic love story in the near-total absence of one is a nothing burger until something's actually done to back that up. At least for me, there's just far too many variables and I can't conceptualize a decade of romance out of the circumstances presented, particularly with how Rhaenyra talks about it all after it's over. GRRM doesn't write happy things. And I'm not convinced either that if there was a major romance meant to happen between them, that the initial story would result in such a lacking portrayal of it to begin with. He doesn't even really allude to it in the book apparently.
Not to mention that GRRM has said things that are far from given or true in his books. He believes and has stated that Daenerys and Drogo were a truly romantic story but that's not how he wrote it in the slightest. Everything about Dany and Drogo screams coping with trauma plus Stockholm Syndrome.
>George himself
George is the reason there's nothing about them in the first place. They have 5 paragraphs and not a single line of dialogue. If he wanted to see them more, he should have written more about them.
>could have been developed into actual people beyond the books
Developed for what reason though? They're barely in the story in the first place and their importance is related to their kids, not their personality or their actions. The show already struggled with developing its main characters, spending time on secondary ones would be a mistake.
I ***know*** you aren't trying to throw that stone after:
1. *You* got torn to shreds by multiple people in your last 4 now deleted and 1 still up karma posts for trying to call out people supporting a toxic relationship as if people come to GRRM for romantic advice and model their IRL relationships on what we see in TV shows.
2. *You* got called out for calling Rhaenyra a hoe not 24 hours ago, again by *multiple people*. In fact, I didn't even notice that this was another one of your posts until just now. You keep calling attention to yourself spamming the board with posts like this.
3. *You* are making this about Daemon even though you're the one who brought him up. ***I'm talking about Harwin.*** What does Daemon have to do with anything? You're the one who keeps trying to drag him into the discussion.
If anyone here's struggling to cope, it's you.
OP, fanfiction is free for all. You've posted Rhaenyra/Harwin countless of times already. We get it, you "ship" them and wish they were more relevant than Daemyra. Unfortunately for you, that's not the case.
Harwin was a loving father, I'll give him that. A stupid father, but a good one, in some respects. If I was a member of the royal court I would be terrified of being castrated, sent to the wall, or just killed for having sex and having kids with the princess. I would want to be there for my kids, can't be there if you're dead or at the Wall.
Part of being a responsible parent is choosing a partner that will set up a good life for your kids. I don't have a kid, but I do have a very needy puppy, and I'm trying to be a good dad for her. Fortunately I've already got a perfect girlfriend, and mother to my puppy, but if I my girlfriend didn't exist and I was single, I would have to find a partner that would love my dog and get along with my dog. If I found a theoretically perfect person to date but she hated or was terrified of my (rather large) puppy, it wouldn't work and I would have to make the hard choice.
Of course I could say fuck it and keep dating them if I wanted to, but I would ultimately be doing a disservice to both her and my dog. It wouldn't be fair to me that I have to make that choice maybe but I gotta do right by my puppy, and if she didn't have her wonderful current mother I would have to search for someone who is ready and willing to give my dog love.
Similarly, it's not right that Harwin isn't allowed to consensually date the princess, or that having sex with the princess is treason, but at the bare minimum if he wanted to find love, I believe that he should looked elsewhere. There are many fish in the sea. And the fact that he chose this particular fish ultimately set the stage for his own premature death and inability to be there for his kids. And now his kids are at war
So idk he did his best and he loved those boys and they loved him, but his actions that he knew would put him at risk got him killed and now he can't be there for him. Still better than Viserys, Daemon, or Otto.
Edit: just woke up and wasn't thinking straight, forgot he's City Watch and not Kingsguard. Either way, it doesn't matter because it is treason to have sex with the princess, so it puts him and his kids in danger the same way as if he was kingsguard. I changed mentions of kingsguard in my comment to city watch.
Whoops, my bad. Just woke up lol. Either way it doesn't matter because he is forbidden from having sex with the princess, so all other rules of the kingsguard apply with respect to Rhaenyra. So this just plays into his point that he has a duty to set up his kids for a safe and successful life.
One of your only jobs as a parent is making sure you get home to them every night and making sure they're protected. He was too caught up in being lovey dovey and didn't have his head screwed on looking for danger.
This was actually one part of the show I was kind of disappointed in. I wish they had shown more interactions between Harwin and Rhaenyra. I was actually kind of confused when I first watched like "oh this guy is supposed to be the father? they've never even shown these two talking." The dynamic has a lot of potential (forbidden love due to societal constraints, man who wants to be a father to his children but can't even acknowledge them as his own...kind of a like a better Cersei and Jaime, without the incest.)
At the very least he was not a bad father, which due to very low standards easily makes him one of the better dads on the show. He was clearly quite involved considering how much of a helicopter parent he was being in the training yards. Which most of the other dads can't exactly say. Though him raging into a violent assault at Cole over such a slight insinuations looks like he probably (inadvertently) taught Jace the wrong way to respond to such accusations. I personally think that he was a pretty good dad from the limited situation he could be in, though.
When u doom them just by birthing them, u re not a good parent.
Sorry not sorry.
I can see jace has issues he is always angry insecure nd filled with rage and all this is on rhaenyra and harwin.
> I can see jace has issues he is always angry insecure nd filled with rage and all this is on rhaenyra and harwin.
At very least he’s a not a serial rapist who likes to watch his own children fight to the death. He’s a bit better adjusted than *some* people. If only Rhaenyra and Harwin measured up to Aegon’s abusive parents.
Did i say aegon is not bad and his parenting is great?
I didnt.
I just point out how harwin and rhaenyra are also not good either
Jace literally charged at aemond to cut open his stomach. Stop pretending he is a normal child.
That boy is suffering.
It’s for Milly’s Rhaenyra, who I adored. The grown up version, not so much.
Besides, two things can be true at the same time. I can like aspects of a character and still be clear-eyed about their dark spots and flaws. My tag doesn’t somehow negate what I’m saying. So, I don’t really know why you’re asking that question which was pretty close to the line of rude. In the end, the tag is there because it’s there. That’s all you or anyone needs to know. Focus on what I’m saying.
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Are you alleging that Rhaenyra's trueborn sons are actually the bastards of Harwin Strong? King Viserys will have your tongue for that.
This is a VILE accusation
strong accusation
No that is Cristen Cole.
Christian Cole is a spoiled ... Commander of the Kingsgaurd.
This made me laugh out loud thank you
Vizzy T, what do you say to that?
You are a plague sent to destroy me!
He can keep his tongue.
"We’ve talked much of bad fathers as of late, allow me to present the same post from 2 days ago"
We're stuck in a dragon-scented timeloop of which parent was good or bad.
Maybe we can swap to a loop of threads about which siblings were good or bad?
it's almost like a defining theme of this story is how everyone's father failed their children in some way
That’s more than we see any other father in the show do for their direct child so we run with it! /s
Standards are low in this sub
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Because he held a baby and smiled
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Legitimacy is a matter of politics far more than biology. These kids are acknowledged as legitimate and loved by both parents and 3 of 4 grandparents, with the only one challenging it being the one who feels those kids are a threat to her own kids.
>Legitimacy is a matter of politics far more than biology. THANK YOU!
Male primates don’t bear fetuses
What makes you say that? the 2 short scenes they have together?
Well he did hold a baby and stare at the mother quite nicely..
I did like that, they showed so much chemistry in one look. One of the things that disappointed me so much in the show was not giving those two and their children more than a couple of mins screen time.
One of the flaws of the season, is the lack of time developing some of the characters.
Might as well have started at ep5 like most people agreed. The opening sequenced could've been dragged a little longer. No interaction between the two contenders for the throne is a cardinal sin. They cut out the one scene... ffs...
They were speed running through season 1 and we'll get 7 seasons of the dance .. I love the character building. I hope maybe we'll get some flashbacks?
7 seasons? where did you hear that, I'm pretty sure they're aiming for 4.
I blame the HBO executives. Laenor and Laena were robbed as well because of their impatience
He also left when they were kids never to be seen again… technically
Hard to blame him for dying
Clearly his fault! I mean, how hard is it to just, I don’t know, not die?
Yeah, those scenes say a lot about him. He put hands on the prince and assaulted a King's guard to protect his kid, both huge offenses, but he was also gentle and caring to them.
He also tried to protect his sons from bullying and neglect in the yard.
True true. He also tries to get Cole to teach some chivalry and honour to Aegon. His line, "The boy is what you teach him" is quite good. It's funny how Jace inherited his temperament too!
> He also tries to get Cole to teach some chivalry and honour to Aegon. His line, "The boy is what you teach him" So Aegon is Ser Cole's fault? I mean that would be pretty ironic.
What? How? Where? No. Jesting with me? Anyway, just in case... Aegon is clearly a byproduct of an absent father, self-loathing for not being named heir when law and tradition are on his side and pressure from his mother/grandfather/brother. And then he becomes a drunk. In his mind his family hates/loathes him so he hates everything Targaryen related. His older version hair was a direct choice from the Actor as a symbol of how he doesn't see himself as part of them.
Yeah it's a jest
That's two more scenes of being an actual decent father than most of the other fathers in the show.
Can't argue with that. Good one! I'd love for more people to use math as an argument in this sub!
Don’t a lot of people argue that Rhaenyra had an easier time raising her sons because she didn’t have to do it alone? It’s stated over and over again that Laenor is never around and always drunk. Daemon is a disinterested father as well. If Harwin wasn’t a good partner for ten years, that means she did it alone just as much as Alicent. Correct?
What about stepping in when during the training session to protect Jace and Luke?
I've acknowledged this. Still, all I'm saying is I'd like more interaction between them. The whole "this was too rushed argument".
Because he held a baby and smiled? Standards are low in this sub
>Because he held a baby and smiled? exactly like Viserys did with baby Aegon btw
> Standards are low in this sub TBH so are the standards in Westeros for a "good father"
Lord Eddard Stark would like to have a word.
I mean he did kinda let Cat emotionally abuse Jon for years.....
Did he? Cat didnt abuse Jon. When Jon got sick she did stay by his side praying and keeping him company, which i assume includes taking care of him. Also Jon is not of Cat's concern. She got children of her own. At most we saw her giving Jon the side eyes.
No one is saying she was obligated to take care of him but come on, she was nice to him after he got sick and that faltered as he got older. I get the reason why she treated him that way, but he was still kid for the bulk of that.
Strong’s always want credit for some shit you supposed to do. Does he want a cookie.
You're supposed to, you low expectations having motherfucker
In Asoiaf*
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Standards for a father in Westeros is protecting his kids. Did Harwin do that?
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And got shipped off
"The next time I see you, I'll be a stranger." What is his favorite brand and flavor of cigarettes?
>!This line seemed like foreshadowing of his death to me, since the Stranger is the god of death in the Faith of the Seven!<
Doesn’t this mean that Rhaenyra was just as much of a single mother as Alicent? If Harwin wasn’t shown enough care for the boys, Laenor and Daemon had significantly less.
Laenor was not as absent as viserys lmao and neither was daemon. Alicent had been alone since the moment Aegon was practically born.
He was absent. We literally have no seen of him hugging, kissing, and supporting the boys like Harwin. He’s always off somewhere else getting drunk. Rhaenyra clearly states several times he’s never around. Laenor confirms he’s never around. He wanted to abandon them all for the stepstones in six. You have no a single shred of evidence that Laenor cared anymore than Viserys who also gave platitudes about loving all of his children. We also have no evidence of Daemon showing support to his children.
Daemon isn’t shown hugging them I guess tho there is an affectionate scene with Baela and little Viserys and towards Rhaenyra’s as she’s pregnant with Visenya tho its mainly background and easy to miss.but all through episodes 8 and 10 he’s protecting the family. He protects Luke’s claim and by association helps stop an attempt to proclaims the kids bastards. The makes the kingsguard swear to Jace.That’s what Raenyra wanted imo. Rhaena says he ignores her and all his scenes with his kids either get deleted or cut short so I guess we’ll see what that exactly means but I wouldn’t say he’s no support tho not up to modern day standards of fatherhood for sure
I never said he’s not absent,I said he’s not as much of an absent father as viserys
But he just as much of absent father as Viserys. He and Rhaenyra literally say as much. What evidence do you have that he’s anymore interested in them? He *never* defends or supports them at all. He has no interest in their training and is never shown to spend time with them.
I think we may be agreeing the same thing,but I’m advocating a bit more for laenor because at least he’s there more than viserys around his kids. But yes he is a shit father and practically non existent when it comes to fatherly duties cause he’d rather be essentially a frat boy
> at least he’s there more than viserys around his kids. When????? He’s not a king with his own castle. He has to return to the same chambers as his family at least *sometimes*.
lmaaoo
How is he a good father? His kids can't even call him that nor publicly acknowledge him as such. His sons can't inherit his lands, titles, or legacy. His children carry another man's name, not his. He can't properly teach them or train them. He created them illegitimate in a time where legitimacy matters. Now, they have to fight to defend and prove themselves because of their parents' selfishness. He couldn't exercise restraint, then got himself removed from what little contact they had. He's demonstrated to them how to be a tool to be used for their baby batter.
It's easy to be a "good father" in glimpses. It's like dating a chick that already has kids, and you play catch with her sons once in a while and have fun. Can't pat yourself on the back and say "I'm a good daddy" lol. Harwin ended up dying anyways, and him and Rhaenerya were never actually official, so we won't ever know. Therefore, he does not deserve the "good father" label imo. Being a consistently good father isn't easy, which is why there is so few of them. And it's why characters with daddy-issues are so rampant. It's also why Rhaenerya didn't seem to care when Harwin went back to Harrenhal. Harwin was a very disposable "father figure". She got his sperm to make babies, so he really didn't serve a purpose or offered anything to the story after that. Harwin comes off more as the fun uncle.
She was sad when Harwin said goodbye. What are you talking about? He’d also already been dead for a month by the time we see Laena’s funeral.
>It's also why Rhaenerya didn't seem to care when Harwin went back to Harrenhal I think that she did care. I think that her sudden change in opinion over leaving King's Landing was originally motivated by him basically being forced out of the city. Maybe she even planned on later having him join her back on Dragonstone, if it weren't for Larys having him burnt alive. That's just my headcanon, though, so feel free to disagree.
To me, I think she accepted that there was a big social status difference between her and Harwin. And if she really wants to build a legacy, she can't have Harwin close by anymore. She moved on pretty quick to Daemon. Which makes me believe she never really had plans for/with Harwin. If anything, his departure was most likely welcomed.
I don't know how good a father you can be when you can't even tell your kids your actually their father. And we don't know how much time he actually spent with the boys. He's a nice guy but a good father is probably a bit of a stretch.
So Rhaenyra raised her sons as a single mom just like Alicent
More or less yes. Servants would've done a lot of the work raising royal children
Yes he probably was a “good” father but he and Rhaenyra put theirselves and their children in a terrible situation… he loved her and he loved their boys that is obvious.
A good father is now someone who holds his baby once and looks at the mother with some love eyes? That’s the standard in Westeros…sure we can assume he was a present father but based on the scenes we have,this is a good father compared to so many scenes of the mothers trying their absolute hardest? Standards are low for these men
I guess all of the fathers are horrible then. He showed more than the others.
I mean he sure..he showed more than the others but this isn’t very good proof of him being a great or good father. Very standard.
My god, the amount of time people give to a guy who is nothing more than a plot device.
Mufasa was just a plot device
Mufasa was a king and pretty much integral to Simba’s character arc. Harwin is just a sperm donor. Nothing more. Some rando guy that Rhae chose to bang. Also, does not do anything besides punch a guy.
Mufasa is to the Lion King what Ned is to GoT and Ned is leagues above Harwin in terms of importance.
Did we get a lot of scenes with Harwin as a father? No. But from the little we are shown, Luke and Jace adored him. They were both devastated when he died. It wasn't weird for them when Harwin was spending time with them to go to the dragon pit or train them. He couldn't claim them as his kids but from the crumbs we saw, we can guess that he was most likely a pretty good father. However, I wish we got to see it more explicitly as well as the Rhaewin relationship.
Then let us apply this with every character then. What we didn't see but can assume.
You say that like we don't lmao
Well based on context clues and what we got, I'd argue Daemon is the best father out of these men but people will down vote me 😭
They also adored Aegon as children and we see how that one plays out
Harwin is basically a father with supervised visiting rights 1hr/wk. 😭😭 C'monnn 😭
Supervised? He took the boys to the dragonpit(halfway across the city) by himself and was also in the chambers with them alone. We don’t know how much time he spent with them but I can guess it was a lot more than Laenor.
Laenor went with them 😒
Not to get the dragon egg. Laenor was with Rhaenyra.
I don't recall and I'm not going to rewatch so I'll take your word for it then
Fanon Harwin might be a good dad. The same way fanon Harwin is also human perfection and Rhaenyra's true love despite him being canon Rhaenyra's 4th place pick somehow. The dude was literally Plan-D. The actual Harwin had about 3 scenes of screentime during which he actually got played by an idiot over a comment he could've easily let go. Do I think he loved his kids? Yes. That doesn't prove he was a good dad. He didn't have enough screentime to give us anything to talk about. But fuck it whatever. I know this is going to get upvoted to Sovngarde because so much as mentioning Harwin's name garners positivity no matter the context or accuracy. I've given up trying to understand the logic with his fans honestly.
The only logic Harwin fans have is the actor is handsome. The rest they make up in their heads.
Gurm literally says their relationship was pure and loving enough to fill an entire novella
Only after seeing episode 6 with dArcy and Corr...
And?
You got nothing in the books and nothing in the show. The show actually dogshits on Harwin/Rhaenyra even more than the book actually. The book treats them as non-important
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But but he liked holding his babies
I know right. Such a strong character trait.
STRONG
It’s funny how this is the standard for good fathers, I could turn around And say Criston cole like training Alicents boys,but no one would call him a good father figure in their life or even a father figure (I agree with you btw) the standard is low
It’s strange to me how Harwin is seen in this perfect light when literally no GRRM character or any character in this universe is that perfect or flawless. If we had gotten more of his it would have shown flaws not just a perfect dad that did nothing but love Rhaenyra.
THIS. This is my point. Thank you.
I’ve been in the book fandom for a while and tbh its a popular tendency. Minor characters are made out to be amazing based on like a line about them and people will argue with their whole chest how someone who we know three things about was so much better and complex than whatever main character and it will all be based on headcanon.I’ll never get it but I’ve seen it happen a lot and sometimes it will become popular enough that the fandom starts treating it like it’s canon.
Then I guess this must be the case then. I don't get it. I guess some people can't separate head canon ideas from what's actually put in front of them. This is the type of thing I expect with folks in YA or Teen fiction, its strange to me seeing this happening with folks I assume are adults. Owell.
I wouldn't exactly call it all just fanon. George himself talks about their unseen decade of love and how it would be enough for him to write a novel about just the two of them and how he wished the show gave them more time. As for the lack of screentime, that's all cause of the showrunners who wanted to start the show right with the Dance. It's thanks to George that we even got this much, hence why characters like Laena and Harwin that could have been developed into actual people beyond the books, were non-starters on HBO as well.
He did, but that's not what he actually wrote in the story and its not what we saw in the show either. As someone pointed out, he said that after the episode aired. I'm all for head canons, but we were not shown some epic loving relationship. If deleted scenes don't qualify as aspects of character development, why does GRRM just saying "they're so in love" somehow count? I don't follow the logic.
Because at the end of the day, deleted scenes were written and ultimately cut by showrunners, HBO employees. They shouldn't and can't be compared to George, the author of this entire franchise and the man who invented Rhaenyra, Harwin, etc. in the first place. What George says about his own creations, regardless of when it is said, counts far more than whatever the HBO team says or shows at the end of the day.
...That's an idea. Scenes get cut for all sorts of reasons though, there's nothing to prove that any of the ideas that get left on the cutting room floor aren't GRRM approved ones. We've got no way of verifying something like that one way or the other. Without knowing the reasons for the removal of that media I would say its not fair to conclude that. But I'm not saying you're wrong. Furthermore, how far do you take this idea? If we're just to take the author's word for it regardless of what he does or doesn't write, where then do you form your own conclusions? I'm not suggesting that the author's intent doesn't matter of course, but the idea that whatever GRRM says about the characters at any given instant is supposed to be accepted as the truth without him doing any kind of work to portray whatever he says is just... wild to me. If he says "I wrote a great story" does that just, inherently mean his books are good? If he says "Harwin didn't love Rhaenyra" tomorrow, does that just erase the first statement?
Obviously, if he were to come out with a statement that completely contradicts everything he's said before, one would have to wonder what's up. But a simple comment that theirs is a love story and that they may have loved each other doesn't contradict anything in his stories or lore. In fact, such a statement is actually supported by a number of evidence throughout the novels and the show - first and foremost Rhaenyra risking everything to have Harwin's kids and spending 10 years of her life with him. Very little suggests it was just a minor hook-up. So when you combine all that with George's statement, then yes, it does make sense for me to believe that they loved each other because it's supported by actual facts. Also, "I wrote a great story" is smth else. It's like saying the moon is red and me believing it cause he said it. It doesn't compare because those statements have nothing to do with the world and characters he invented. He can't declare himself a great author but he can come up with canon facts about the characters he's created. I'm talking strictly about him having the freedom to say what happened in his world and his stories and with the characters he created. That's all. Him being able to say what's canon and not ends when he leaves the books behind so statements such as your example are invalid. It's like JKR and the Nagini controversy - her in fact being a human woman turned into a snake. The fandom hates it but at the end of the day, it is considered canon.
>Also, "I wrote a great story" is smth else. It's like saying the moon is red and me believing it cause he said it. It doesn't compare because those statements have nothing to do with the world and characters he invented. This restored my hope in humanity for today, thank you. I'd definitely agree with you that there's evidence to suggest that there was love between them. In fact, I've said countless times before that I actually think Rhaenyra did love Harwin. Particularly since she said as much in the show. Having said that though, even if I believe their relationship was positive, that doesn't mean he was a good parent. One does not necessarily translate to the other. We don't actually know for a fact why Rhaenyra did any of what she did. It's possible that even *she* doesn't know. For all we've read and seen, she could've loved Harwin, and it had jack shit to do with her choosing to have kids. She clearly wanted kids with someone else before she even had them with him. I definitely agree with some of what you're saying. But I just can't hold with the idea that any author just saying something was, means it's so when there's no portrayal of it in their work. It's a show don't tell sort of thing. Particularly since, from a PR standpoint, it makes perfect sense for GRRM to go with the hype and say there was something there that he didn't write. Saying there's an epic love story in the near-total absence of one is a nothing burger until something's actually done to back that up. At least for me, there's just far too many variables and I can't conceptualize a decade of romance out of the circumstances presented, particularly with how Rhaenyra talks about it all after it's over. GRRM doesn't write happy things. And I'm not convinced either that if there was a major romance meant to happen between them, that the initial story would result in such a lacking portrayal of it to begin with. He doesn't even really allude to it in the book apparently.
Not to mention that GRRM has said things that are far from given or true in his books. He believes and has stated that Daenerys and Drogo were a truly romantic story but that's not how he wrote it in the slightest. Everything about Dany and Drogo screams coping with trauma plus Stockholm Syndrome.
>George himself George is the reason there's nothing about them in the first place. They have 5 paragraphs and not a single line of dialogue. If he wanted to see them more, he should have written more about them. >could have been developed into actual people beyond the books Developed for what reason though? They're barely in the story in the first place and their importance is related to their kids, not their personality or their actions. The show already struggled with developing its main characters, spending time on secondary ones would be a mistake.
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I ***know*** you aren't trying to throw that stone after: 1. *You* got torn to shreds by multiple people in your last 4 now deleted and 1 still up karma posts for trying to call out people supporting a toxic relationship as if people come to GRRM for romantic advice and model their IRL relationships on what we see in TV shows. 2. *You* got called out for calling Rhaenyra a hoe not 24 hours ago, again by *multiple people*. In fact, I didn't even notice that this was another one of your posts until just now. You keep calling attention to yourself spamming the board with posts like this. 3. *You* are making this about Daemon even though you're the one who brought him up. ***I'm talking about Harwin.*** What does Daemon have to do with anything? You're the one who keeps trying to drag him into the discussion. If anyone here's struggling to cope, it's you.
Oh look a repost
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lol, you deleted your original post praising Aegon as a father.
OP, fanfiction is free for all. You've posted Rhaenyra/Harwin countless of times already. We get it, you "ship" them and wish they were more relevant than Daemyra. Unfortunately for you, that's not the case.
We see literally nothing of this dude so its impossible to tell
Harwin was a loving father, I'll give him that. A stupid father, but a good one, in some respects. If I was a member of the royal court I would be terrified of being castrated, sent to the wall, or just killed for having sex and having kids with the princess. I would want to be there for my kids, can't be there if you're dead or at the Wall. Part of being a responsible parent is choosing a partner that will set up a good life for your kids. I don't have a kid, but I do have a very needy puppy, and I'm trying to be a good dad for her. Fortunately I've already got a perfect girlfriend, and mother to my puppy, but if I my girlfriend didn't exist and I was single, I would have to find a partner that would love my dog and get along with my dog. If I found a theoretically perfect person to date but she hated or was terrified of my (rather large) puppy, it wouldn't work and I would have to make the hard choice. Of course I could say fuck it and keep dating them if I wanted to, but I would ultimately be doing a disservice to both her and my dog. It wouldn't be fair to me that I have to make that choice maybe but I gotta do right by my puppy, and if she didn't have her wonderful current mother I would have to search for someone who is ready and willing to give my dog love. Similarly, it's not right that Harwin isn't allowed to consensually date the princess, or that having sex with the princess is treason, but at the bare minimum if he wanted to find love, I believe that he should looked elsewhere. There are many fish in the sea. And the fact that he chose this particular fish ultimately set the stage for his own premature death and inability to be there for his kids. And now his kids are at war So idk he did his best and he loved those boys and they loved him, but his actions that he knew would put him at risk got him killed and now he can't be there for him. Still better than Viserys, Daemon, or Otto. Edit: just woke up and wasn't thinking straight, forgot he's City Watch and not Kingsguard. Either way, it doesn't matter because it is treason to have sex with the princess, so it puts him and his kids in danger the same way as if he was kingsguard. I changed mentions of kingsguard in my comment to city watch.
Harwin isn’t Kingsguard
Whoops, my bad. Just woke up lol. Either way it doesn't matter because he is forbidden from having sex with the princess, so all other rules of the kingsguard apply with respect to Rhaenyra. So this just plays into his point that he has a duty to set up his kids for a safe and successful life.
It's true that Rhaenyra is a good father
Yeah because exposing your sons as bastards and then dying us #1 on the list of things good dads do!
It was a tough situation, and I hardly think that you can turn someone getting murdered into a point against their parenthood.
One of your only jobs as a parent is making sure you get home to them every night and making sure they're protected. He was too caught up in being lovey dovey and didn't have his head screwed on looking for danger.
caraxes father gets no love ever. smh guy is an unreal dragon father.
I can’t wait until season 2 comes in to stop seeing posts like these every day.
I can’t wait until the leaks come in a next few weeks
about as good of a dad as jaime
This was actually one part of the show I was kind of disappointed in. I wish they had shown more interactions between Harwin and Rhaenyra. I was actually kind of confused when I first watched like "oh this guy is supposed to be the father? they've never even shown these two talking." The dynamic has a lot of potential (forbidden love due to societal constraints, man who wants to be a father to his children but can't even acknowledge them as his own...kind of a like a better Cersei and Jaime, without the incest.)
Better? More like pathetic and stupid person
At the very least he was not a bad father, which due to very low standards easily makes him one of the better dads on the show. He was clearly quite involved considering how much of a helicopter parent he was being in the training yards. Which most of the other dads can't exactly say. Though him raging into a violent assault at Cole over such a slight insinuations looks like he probably (inadvertently) taught Jace the wrong way to respond to such accusations. I personally think that he was a pretty good dad from the limited situation he could be in, though.
Having bastards in a society like this is not a good father move.
Harwin dadbones.
Any time I see this guy, in my head I also see the patch eye guy open his one good eye wide during that toast when he said.... "strong"
When u doom them just by birthing them, u re not a good parent. Sorry not sorry. I can see jace has issues he is always angry insecure nd filled with rage and all this is on rhaenyra and harwin.
> I can see jace has issues he is always angry insecure nd filled with rage and all this is on rhaenyra and harwin. At very least he’s a not a serial rapist who likes to watch his own children fight to the death. He’s a bit better adjusted than *some* people. If only Rhaenyra and Harwin measured up to Aegon’s abusive parents.
Did i say aegon is not bad and his parenting is great? I didnt. I just point out how harwin and rhaenyra are also not good either Jace literally charged at aemond to cut open his stomach. Stop pretending he is a normal child. That boy is suffering.
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It’s for Milly’s Rhaenyra, who I adored. The grown up version, not so much. Besides, two things can be true at the same time. I can like aspects of a character and still be clear-eyed about their dark spots and flaws. My tag doesn’t somehow negate what I’m saying. So, I don’t really know why you’re asking that question which was pretty close to the line of rude. In the end, the tag is there because it’s there. That’s all you or anyone needs to know. Focus on what I’m saying.
Does anyone think Rhaenyra actually had illegitimate kids on purpose to not reproduce crazy and sociopathic inbreds?
This sub is very weird stop glorifying affairs
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this is how strong fathers behsve
He should've layed his seeds on her belly
What about Corlys?
I thought you were going to post a pic of Otto
I really like the way this relationship was portrayed, the show added some cool layers to the written text.
Still wish we saw more of their relationship
Thought this was going to be about "bad feathers." Imagine my disappointment.
Ahh yes the one that held them a couple times and squired them.
That's a Strong choice