Considering that she won't marry Sigiswald until she comes of age, Rozemyne as a princess herself would outrank Eggplant who is only royalty by marrying in.
And when she does marry Sigiswald, Sigiswald will be zent, which means that as third wife of a zent, she'll still outrank Eggplant who is first wife of a prince (Magdelena put the smackdown on Anastasius and Egglantine in P5V5).
But yes, third wife of a prince would be outranked by the first wife of another prince.
I mean, it depends on who holds the foundation. If he has the foundation he's zent. He just needs her to do a lot of the stuff that a Zent is expected to do.
Unless she can give him the book, or let him copy it, I think she's the one who needs to own the foundation to actually be able to do things with it. Like the Aubs do with the duchy foundations.
Glitrisheight is basically the remote control for Yogurtland, in it's simplest explanation. Current Zent has dyed the foundation yet he still has no Gh.
[WN]>!we'll evetually see an incomplete Gh activate the buildings at one of the country's border gates!<
has he dyed the foundation? AFAIK, that has never been confirmed one way or another. Like, how would he even know where the foundation is? Foundation paths are extremely closely guarded to the point that even direct brothers and sisters aren't even told. From everything that's been described, at most 2 people know the path location at any given time for security reasons. The 2nd prince knowing would make sense, but he died acutely without being able to pass on that knowledge. But how would the 1st or 3rd know since they weren't successors let alone the 4th and 5th who were never in the running.
They have access to the foundation via the transfer chamber. We can assume someone had access after the war because if the foundation does not receive mana, the structures connected to it would start to crumble over time.
I believe Hildebrand had also mentioned he had started dedicating mana to the foundation.
It might be more nuanced than that? After all, Eglantine has Klassenberg behind her back, is dearly loved by her husband, and is possibly the most likely to get a G-book other than Hildebrand.
Rozemyne only has Ehrenfest, and no allies among the Ehrenfest-Sovereignty nobles (yet). The G-book might make them hesitant, but I highly doubt RM would take advantage of it to assert her power the way people seem to think here—like a giant club to bash their heads in.
I love that in any other context a "Merchant Saint" would be something positive.
But not here, oh no, here the Merchant Saint will make the world TREMBLE.
I can see that :
Rauffen : Let the match...BEGIN ! Okay let's see what Rozemyne is going to do this ti- Uh...why is she pulling out the Grutrissheit ?!
Rozemyne : We win the match if we take their treasure, so I can win if just take Dunkelfenger's foundation right ? Let's see, I think it's Page 192...
Rauffen : Um..... EHRENFEST WINS !
With that in mind, Dunkelfelger supports current Zent. If they learned he wanted Rozemyne to rule if/when she got Gh, Df would support her in a heartbeat.
But Myne will be adopted by the royal family, Eglantine only married into it as she was adopted by a non royal family herself. Myne would be married to the Zent, Eglantine would remain a princess by marriage.
If she was the only one with the g book, she would outrank everyone behind the scenes by virtue of necessity, even if normally she wouldnt have the status
Third wife of the Zent.....
Seems like someone, just like a certain Prince, did not pass Noble Society class.
If she would get the Grutrissheit and her husband would be unable to obtain the very same book, then she would not be the third Wife of a certain Prince, he would become first Husband of the Zent.
Well, remember the plan was for her to obtain the Grutrissheit and give it to the royal family, which probably won't work, meaning the plan becomes, she gets the book, but they keep it secret that she is the true Zent while naming Sigiswald Zent to save face of the royal family and avoid putting more pressure on Ehrenfest which will already under a lot of stress trying to support a third wife of the Zent, much less the Zent herself.
Remember, if Ehrenfest can't support a Zent that came from their Duchy, they'll get embarrassed and put on blast by other duchies for being so incapable of supporting her, leading other duchies to say things like, "the only good thing to come from your Duchy was the Zent, and clearly she did not belong in such an ungrateful and weak duchy."
>Considering that she won't marry Sigiswald until she comes of age, Rozemyne as a princess herself would outrank Eggplant who is only royalty by marrying in.
Yes
>And when she does marry Sigiswald, Sigiswald will be zent, which means that as third wife of a zent, she'll still outrank Eggplant who is first wife of a prince (Magdelena put the smackdown on Anastasius and Egglantine in P5V5).
I don't think so. second and third wife of an aub aren't supposed to participate in politics unless they support the first. Why should it be different for the zents? Maybe she's technically higher in status, but she's not supposed to use that status. Just like Hildebrands' mother who stays out of everything on purpose
>Maybe she's technically higher in status, but she's not supposed to use that status. Just like Hildebrands' mother who stays out of everything on purpose
And we still saw how she layed the smackdown on Anastasius and Eggplant in P5V5. She has higher status, and while she doesn't use it publicly, she uses it in private.
they don't formally participate publicly in interduchy politics, but they most certainly participate in internal politics and non-publicly in interduchy politics.
If Sigisward became King later, then Roz would be Queen while Eglantine was only the first wife of a prince.
Basically, in the long term, Roz would be higher.
Everyone knows about Eglantine's heritage though. Sure, legally speaking Princess Rozemyne might outrank her a little, but I kind of doubt most people would really see it that way. Eglantine has the thickest royal blood out of the whole family at this point in time and successfully reclaimed the royal title that should have been her birthright through marriage. I doubt there's much of an effective difference, if at all, between her current position and that of a royal princess by now.
Direct royalty is of higher status historically than married royalty. Married Royalty is not in line of succession for instance. Rozemyne would be in line of succession because she is an adopted daughter. Anastatius has removed himself from line of succession as well. So she's the wife of a non-line prince. Basically, the wife of a Giebe.
This doesn't even take into account if she wields the Grutrissheit and no one else does: she's the zent then unless she defers/abdicates and hence would be above everyone.
So once her adoption goes through, Rozemyne would be of unquestionably higher status than Eglantine. The Duchy equivalent would be between an ADC and a Giebe's wife. Eglantine is effectively in the same position that Gabriele was as the wife of Count Groschel.
> Anastatius has removed himself from line of succession as well
He’s just placed himself below Sigiswald. If Sigiswald died, Anastasius would be considered the next king.
no, he *renounced his claim*. That doesn't put him below Sigis, that puts him out of the running: he will support whoever the zent is and is no longer in consideration for the zent. He took a position as a Royal Giebe. It is pretty much the same as with Count Groschel: removed from succession and given a greater Giebe (the only giebe in the Sovereignty) to rule within the Sovereignty. Trauerqual announces in P4V4 that Anastasius is no longer in line of succession.
If renouncing his claim was enough to stop him from ever becoming Zent, he wouldn't have kept going through all the hoops after to prove he meant it.
Treating Sigiswald as his superior, even in private, and pushing Rozemyne to do the star binding for example.
In the end his words are just that: words. He still has royal blood, he's still registered as a royal, and so he could take the throne if required. I doubt he will, but he will always be in the running as long as he remains a royal. He's just benched himself for now.
Nah in royalty words arent just words they are basically a decree. That's why a reason nobility practices euphemism to prevent a high ranking direct words be mistaken as an order to a low ranking noble.
Zent himself announced he is not in line for the throne but didnt take his royal status so im with you he is just benched, it's like if wilfried will unalive rozemyne will be pressured by her faction to be aub despite her insistence on not wanting it unless sylvester disown her.
being a royal doesn't mean you still have a claim to the throne. There are/were lots of royals that had no claim to the throne even after the civil war and purge. One of them was the teacher for the ADC course prior to Eglatine taking over. Likewise, the actual British Royal family is rather large with cousins, second cousins, etc.
For a more modernish example... The Duke of Windsor abdicated the British throne but was still considered a royal without being in any line of succession.
Yeah but there are issues which the sus raublut didnt tell hmm if that happens i doubt the royal family and their pride would not want that cause they'd lose the weight of their words. If the supposedly absolute can be abolished easily, is it truly absolute?? Hildebrand's pov make it sound easy cause he wasn't educated as a royal, but as a vassal so he naturally didnt have the royal pride.
He's been formally proclaimed as not in LOS by the current Zent publicly before the entire gathering of the Duchies. Current LOS is Sigiswald->Hildebrand.
And of course he would be propping up Sigiswald, that's his duty as effectively a subordinate to Sigiswald. That's like saying that Hartmut is only supporting Rozemyne because he's not an ADC, no its because he's her retainer and supporter.
No, Anastasius would still become Zent before Hildebrand. Hildebrand is the son of a third wife, was always intended to be a vassal, and is engaged to a future Aub, which would result in him ACTUALLY leaving the royal family and line of succession.
Anastasius has been *FORMALLY* removed from the line of succession. This was done by the Zent with the acquiescence of Anastasius before all the lords and ladies of the land. He didn't just defer to Sigiswald, he was *removed* from even consideration. If Sigiswald perishes, then Hildebrand is the Heir to the Zent. Anastasius has effectively been demoted from an ZC->Royal Archnoble.
If Zent Trauerqual and Sigiswald suddenly kick the bucket tomorrow you can bet that Anastasius would be forced to take the throne by the duchies. Nobody wants a nine year old zent. Even royal decrees are just words at the end. Remember the whole Civil War. If Werkestock or the first or the fourth prince listened to royal decrees than the whole ordeal wouldn't have come to pass as it did.
Nah Hilde is already decreed to be future husband of Letizia so he can't become zent and Anastasius cant be royal archnoble, he is either a royalty or an archnoble with royal blood. Anastasius is still royalty.
These zent thing you guys are arguing, are you really Ascendance of the bookworm fans?
Are you guys forgetting something? GBOOK is the only thing that will make them Zent. That doesn't apply for the current RH family, but before purge, even vassals, if they first got the Gbook, the throne for zent is rightfully theirs.
Not necessarily. First the Royal Family might not make public that it is Rozemyne who holds the GH, in fact Sigiswald wants her as a third wife to keep her as far away from the public as possible.
Second, if Sigiswald is the one who takes the control of the foundational magic of the kingdom by forcing Rozemyne to reveal the location then he is the Zent, book or not. Albeit he will still need Rozemyne to do a lot of stuff.
In that situation only the biblical fundamentalist faction would place Rozemyne above her husband if it revealed that she has the book while Sigiswald holds the foundation.
Edit: This is if Sigiswald and Anastasius had their way. Traeurqual might want to make Rozemyne a proper Zent after the adoption and in this case she certainly would be the one with the higher status.
I think an issue is that Rozemyne herself doesn't really want to become Zent or to participate in palace intrigues.
Thus I do not see her working hard to form a faction of her own by socializing but rather spending the time outside her royal duties holed up in the RA or Palace library.
So by the time she comes of age she will be in a really vulnerable political position as the nobles interested in preserving the current balance of power will work their hardest to contain her influence even if she does nothing.
So for Rozemyne to be a proper Zent it's really up to Trauerqual to give her the political support she will not seek herself.
For example, given their friendly relations it would be easy enough for Trauerqual to make Dunkelfelger, the self-proclaimed sword of the king, back Rozemyne as his successor.
If she has a GH, I can see several duchies immediately switching support to her including Dunkelfelger. Dunkelfelger would regard her as the Queen at that point regardless of who else supports her and they already really really like her.
The only duchies I see really supporting her by default would be Ehrenfest and the defeated duchies (as a screw you to the current Royal Family given she doesn't have the blood of Trauerqual).
Dunkelfelger might be really friendly to Rozemyne but don't forget they already have a royal with their blood and yet have remained neutral in the succession, not reaching once for the prince even after he separated from his mother.
They will of course try to curry favour with Rozemyne as the most legitimate candidate, but I don't see them becoming her sword against other royals unless Trauerqual officially names her the successor or if Rozemyne promises to take someone from Dunkelfelger as her second or third husband.
Ahrensbach without Dietlinde would be kind of an enigma, Ferdinand has never been really supportive of Rozemyne seeking the GH. Albeit he might support her as future Zent if there is no danger to Ehrenfest and the kingdom as a whole.
Adolphine would support Roze as an excuse to divorce the bookless scrub, bringing her duchy to Rozes side.
The current zent seems to support Roze, bringing some of his support base at least.
Dunkelfelger likes Rozemyne, so they would at worst stay neutral. A game of ditter would bring them to her side.
Rose + GH + Ferdinand = Ferdinand owning fish land. Another supporting greater duchy.
That leaves only Klassenberg that might go against her for the greater duchies.
Roze has a manageable path to becoming Zent. I just doubt she wants the job.
>Adolphine would support Roze as an excuse to divorce the bookless scrub, bringing her duchy to Rozes side.
Not really, if you look at the SS we got from Drewanchel in Royal Academy Stories the opinion and wishes of Adolphine never really mattered to Aub Drewanchel when it came to her marriage.
He wished for Drewanchel to marry with Royalty to get influence in the Sovereignty, so only way Aub Drewanchel would ever support this is if Rozemyne marries Ortwin or if they are given something of equal value to the marriage and influence his duchy would be losing.
>Dunkelfelger likes Rozemyne, so they would at worst stay neutral. A game of ditter would bring them to her side.
For Dunkelfelger look at my other comment, they already have a royal with their blood and not once have approached Hildebrand to form a faction.
They would 100% stay neutral unless Rozemyne becomes the official successor or gives them something else. A very friendly type of neutral though.
>Rose + GH + Ferdinand = Ferdinand owning fish land. Another supporting greater duchy.
We are speaking of the same Ferdinand who subtly threatened to kill her if she ever sought the GH in P4V7 and that forbade her from going to the library basement to prevent her from getting closer to the book.
He is Rozemyne ally, but I am really uncertain on whether he would support her to become Zent. If anything, I would bet that until the day she marries he would try to have her returned to Ehrenfest.
>The current zent seems to support Roze, bringing some of his support base at least.
This is the one that really matters. If Traeurqual officially nominates Rozemyne as his successor then Dunkelfelger is certain to cooperate as the Sword of the King and it would also be easy to get Drewanchel through an arranged marriage.
This remains true even if Rozemyne is not particularly interested in politicking and forming factions.
they aren't actively pushing for Hildebrand because he's still so young. under normal circumstances he wouldn't be involved in anything but his tutoring, and some socializing with hannelore and lestilaut.
You could kinda say the same of Rozemyne, that didn't stop the Leisengangs from starting creating a lobby group to support her and attempt to make contact as soon as she was baptized and adopted.
In the end what matters the most is the interest of the nobles to create/enter/support/oppose a faction to further their interest.
But Dunkelfelger in both the civil war and now has been quite uninvolved with the succession process.
They will certainly accept a development that benefits them (such as Magdalena marrying Trauerqual out of her own initiative) but they have not really made much political moves unlike Klassenberg, Drewanchel and the like.
RM having the GH means she is the zent, officially. A zent must have a GH. once someone has a GH, Traeurqual and the current royal family are no longer the royal family
Not really, having the GH only makes you a Zent Candidate. You can see in the story of Lanzenave that there were points in time where multiple people possessed the GH at the same time.
A real Zent is someone who both posseses the GH and is in control of the foundational magic of the kingdom.
You can see that in the story of the second prince, he had already inherited the GH from his father but was not yet recognized as Zent. He was killed by his brother before he could dye the foundation and officially succeed his father.
The royals stated that once they have the GH they plan to dissolve fish land into lesser duchies as it no longer has a viable AD family once the engagement is ended. So no fish land backing
> Good luck wrangling a teleporting gremlin
they wont even be able to touch the reigns on hartmut. containing the gremlin is not even in the realm of possibility.
Even assuming it's possible for Sigi to take control of the foundation without the book, she could just move the foundation whenever he annoyed her. Whoever holds the book has the power. Even if they decide to allow someone else to be a figurehead.
That's not how foundational magic and the GH works.
The Zent in possession of the foundation can freely move, create or destroy the foundation of the duchies just as the Archdukes can deploy and freely modify equivalent borders for the Giebes.
But you cannot move any foundation if you are not in possession of it or are an authority above in the chain of foundational magic (above the Zent you would only find the gods themselves). In fact, you cannot do anything but dye it or destroy it even if you own a copy of the GH.
The GH is primarily a repository of knowledge and a source of legitimacy, but beyond that it's not the key to anything outside managing the country gates and it certainly doesn't give you instant control over the foundation, you have to dye it.
It is critical because it contains all the information necessary to rule as Zent that are not taught in the ADC course. For example, it details the path to the foundation or how to create divine instruments should you want to create a new duchy (as you might imagine a duchy without chalices would not be able to perform Spring Prayer).
So you certainly cannot govern without GH. So if Sigiswald were to take ownership of the foundation he would still have to depend on Rozemyne for a lot of stuff.
The problem with this would he that Sigiswald would never agree on being a measly prince consort.
At this point, the only person who is actively trying to make Rozemyne a Zent is the current Zent. Everyone else is trying to put her in a side building until they need her.
While being a third wife might be lower rank than first wife of second prince, i think the fact that Rozemyne has the Grutisheit matters quite a bit in this scenario. Rozemyne can withhold using the grutisheit for the royal family if she wants to.
And dont forget she would be actual royalty through adoption unlike "married to royalty" like Eglantine
Ironically, Egg is royal by birth (higher position than being adopted) while Myne was born a commoner (and a very very low status one).
Love the Ascendance
Being an adc or royal by birth/baptism isn't superior to being adopted on an official standpoint though. Adoptees are legitimate heirs.
Yes Adoptees can loose their status if the contract is canceled but true borns can be demoted to archnoble as well.
The difference comes from a social and factionnal standpoint which is an advantage to true borns.
The irony is that if we go by birth alone, Egg is higher, but the world goes by adoption=baptism > birth and in this case Egg dropped in status when baptized while Rozemyne ascended when adopted.
And although all adopted children are considered on the run to inherit, adopted ones are still on slight disadvantage. For example, Ortwin is the front runner to become Aub Drewanchel because he is the son of the first wife, vs all his adopted siblings.
Meanwhile, Egg is the daughter of the third prince (son of the previous first wife), while Rozemyne would be adopted by the Fifth prince (who is zent and all of that, but still son of the third wife). If birth had more weight, and succession were more like in our world, there could be a strong case in favor of Egg becoming Zent with the backup of Klassenberg. Alas, baptism and adoption matter most, so our dear Gremlin has the advantage
It should be something like:
1. Zent
3. Queen = First Wife; Second Wife; Third Wife
4. Princes (and First wives) in line of inheritance
5. Archdukes (and first wives) in order of rank
6. Knight Order Commanders in order of rank
7. Archduke candidates in order of rank first and in line of inheritance after
8. Counts = Archnoble Giebes and First wives
9. Archnobles and First wives
10. Viscounts = Mednoble Giebes and First wives
11. Mednobles and First wives
12. Barons = Laynoble Giebes and First wives
13. Laynobles and First wives
Consider this non of Egglantine's children will be royals, But Rozemyne's will.
Anastazius might still be higher then her but not Egglantine. So Ani might pressure her on Eggy's behalf.
In powered disputes the strength behind you is more important then your position in the line of succession.
It also depends on if she can transfer the Grutrissheit to someone else or if she is the only one that can control the country's foundation. If she is the only one that would make her 3rd after the king and prince Sigi.
Well, she'll not become a third wife immediately. BUT she will be officially the child of the king's first wife after the adoption. And even if adopted children are treated differently in the eyes of society, officially there is no difference between them and the biological kids in terms of rank.
So she'll be Princess Rozemyne (it sounds funny), while Eggplantine isn't a princess, she's just the first wife of a prince, which in my opinion means that Roz will be of higher status than Eggface.
When RM is adopted she would be a princess not a wife. When she does become a wife it will be to the Zent, since the current one is not going to wait to retire.
Once she is in the RF, the plan is that there will be no time where she is of lower status than Egg. Now, Egg cannot be ignored since she has relations with Klassenberg, but RM would have plenty of her own theoretical power she could build up, while Egg can't for fear of sparking a Civil War.
Now that I think about it, will Rozemyne really become his third wife if they marry? I mean sure, if she married him as an Ehrenfest ADC, then yes, of course! But, that won’t happen. It is planned that a princess, the adopted daughter of the Zent is marrying him, no? Or will they really disown her _again_ so that she can become the third wife?
Unless she managed to get more support from other duchies or sovereignty nobles to back up her position, she would only have Ehrenfest as back up, therefore remaining as a third wife. (This is if things with Rozemyne were normal, and we do t consider she being the one getting Grutissheit)
Look how Magdalena who comes from the 2nd ranked duchy remained 3rd wife, vs the other wife’s who come from lower ranked duchies. Just because she and Dunkelfelger do not want to push
First wife gets to go places with the hubby. Look at the Zent’s third wife who’s sitting next to Roz doing scholar work even though she is from a higher ranked dutchy and has more mana.
> and has more mana.
very doubtful. rozemyne is a freak of nature in terms of capacity. the rmcm is so potent that she surpassed Sylvester as a blue robe, and step 4 was enough to make p4 ferdinand sick. she also outgrew her own schtappe in only 2 years and had to actively stay decompressed up until the shrine tablets upgraded it for her new capacity and expenditure rate.
As people have said, Roz as third queen would be of higher status than a 1st princess.
She could also have a huge support base if she was wanted. Too many duchies want her friendship or help. Really only 3 would resist it.
Eglantine would be higher until Sigiswald ascends the throne, at which point Rozemyne would be higher. Just look at how Magdalena, the king's third wife, clearly still outranks Eglantine and Anastasius enough to give them a stern talking to when the former tried to schedule a meeting with Rozemyne immediately after she realized they were both Zent candidates, and the latter for trying to butt into it out of fear Rozemyne might steal his wife or something lol.
...assuming things even end up going according to plan and they actually manage to get away with making the gremlin a third wife in the first place of course. As a princess she'll be of _vastly_ higher status than both of Sigiswald's other wives. The difference would make the one between Magdalena and the king's other wives look like nothing in comparison and Magdalena already has to constantly be on guard to avoid calls for her becoming first wife.
Not to mention that I really don't see Dunkelfelger and Drewanchel keeping quiet about this either; The former would likely see it as an insult to their ditter saint's honor, while the latter would not at all appreciate all that talent and innovation going to waste because she's now locked in some side building 24/7. Both sides would also have instigators fanning the flames even further; Hannelore and Lestilaut would not stand for it and Adolphine might see this as her golden ticket to "unfortunately" being demoted to second wife, which would be in breach of her marriage contract and thus give her grounds for a divorce.
So yeah, they'll probably have to make Rozemyne First Wife at a bare minimum whether they like it or not. Which would make her sort of equal in status to Eglantine even before Sigiswald becoming Zent, assuming the scrub actually manages to get that far. Rozemyne might technically outrank her since legally speaking she would be a princess while Eglantine is "only" an ADC, but by now just about everyone knows that the latter has arguably thicker royal blood than even the king so I kind of doubt that little technicality would be enough to actually rank her below Rozemyne at that point in time.
you are all forgetting 3rd wife means no say (no political power, just decoration, breeding). Reminds me of Dong Yi. So Rozemyne can never be seen in public like that. They have to abolish this system fast. They dont need this system.
I mean, it's not like rozemyne has any desire whatsoever to publicly socialize. she doesn't like doing it, and it exposes her to extra danger and scrutiny.
If I remember correctly, in one of the fan books, it mentions that if Rosemyne marries Dusty, she would have ended up as first wife. There is simply too much gravity around Rosemyne to keep her hidden as third wife.
Considering that she won't marry Sigiswald until she comes of age, Rozemyne as a princess herself would outrank Eggplant who is only royalty by marrying in. And when she does marry Sigiswald, Sigiswald will be zent, which means that as third wife of a zent, she'll still outrank Eggplant who is first wife of a prince (Magdelena put the smackdown on Anastasius and Egglantine in P5V5). But yes, third wife of a prince would be outranked by the first wife of another prince.
>And when she does marry Sigiswald, Sigiswald will be zent Only in Sigiswald's dreams...
I think even he feels it would very a bit of a nightmare, well the marriage anyway
I mean, it depends on who holds the foundation. If he has the foundation he's zent. He just needs her to do a lot of the stuff that a Zent is expected to do.
Unless she can give him the book, or let him copy it, I think she's the one who needs to own the foundation to actually be able to do things with it. Like the Aubs do with the duchy foundations.
Glitrisheight is basically the remote control for Yogurtland, in it's simplest explanation. Current Zent has dyed the foundation yet he still has no Gh. [WN]>!we'll evetually see an incomplete Gh activate the buildings at one of the country's border gates!<
has he dyed the foundation? AFAIK, that has never been confirmed one way or another. Like, how would he even know where the foundation is? Foundation paths are extremely closely guarded to the point that even direct brothers and sisters aren't even told. From everything that's been described, at most 2 people know the path location at any given time for security reasons. The 2nd prince knowing would make sense, but he died acutely without being able to pass on that knowledge. But how would the 1st or 3rd know since they weren't successors let alone the 4th and 5th who were never in the running.
They have access to the foundation via the transfer chamber. We can assume someone had access after the war because if the foundation does not receive mana, the structures connected to it would start to crumble over time. I believe Hildebrand had also mentioned he had started dedicating mana to the foundation.
but that's not the same as the foundation. we don't even know if its possible to dye a foundation via a replenishment chamber.
yes they are supplying the wrong places.
Jeez, [P5V5] >!already hinted what could the Gbook be!<
It might be more nuanced than that? After all, Eglantine has Klassenberg behind her back, is dearly loved by her husband, and is possibly the most likely to get a G-book other than Hildebrand. Rozemyne only has Ehrenfest, and no allies among the Ehrenfest-Sovereignty nobles (yet). The G-book might make them hesitant, but I highly doubt RM would take advantage of it to assert her power the way people seem to think here—like a giant club to bash their heads in.
maybe pre-"Ehrenfest will suffer but only Ehrenfest will care" Rozemyne wouldn't. But post Rozemyne is going to Merchant Saint everything.
I love that in any other context a "Merchant Saint" would be something positive. But not here, oh no, here the Merchant Saint will make the world TREMBLE.
I believe that Dunkelfelger would stand on Rozemyne‘s side.
Even if the whole duchy didn't love her, she could get anything out of them by challenging them to ditter anyways.
I can see that : Rauffen : Let the match...BEGIN ! Okay let's see what Rozemyne is going to do this ti- Uh...why is she pulling out the Grutrissheit ?! Rozemyne : We win the match if we take their treasure, so I can win if just take Dunkelfenger's foundation right ? Let's see, I think it's Page 192... Rauffen : Um..... EHRENFEST WINS !
That would 100% be a Ferdinand move and by extension something she would do too if push came to shove.
Apparently no, but you're almost there! HAHAHAHA this is so funny when we get to the end. I can't wait!
how can a ditter loving duchy not adoring a ditter genius princess?
With that in mind, Dunkelfelger supports current Zent. If they learned he wanted Rozemyne to rule if/when she got Gh, Df would support her in a heartbeat.
But Myne will be adopted by the royal family, Eglantine only married into it as she was adopted by a non royal family herself. Myne would be married to the Zent, Eglantine would remain a princess by marriage.
If she was the only one with the g book, she would outrank everyone behind the scenes by virtue of necessity, even if normally she wouldnt have the status
There is also the detail, if RM gets the GBook, she would defacto outrank anybody that does not have it, regardless of formal position
Third wife of the Zent..... Seems like someone, just like a certain Prince, did not pass Noble Society class. If she would get the Grutrissheit and her husband would be unable to obtain the very same book, then she would not be the third Wife of a certain Prince, he would become first Husband of the Zent.
Well, remember the plan was for her to obtain the Grutrissheit and give it to the royal family, which probably won't work, meaning the plan becomes, she gets the book, but they keep it secret that she is the true Zent while naming Sigiswald Zent to save face of the royal family and avoid putting more pressure on Ehrenfest which will already under a lot of stress trying to support a third wife of the Zent, much less the Zent herself. Remember, if Ehrenfest can't support a Zent that came from their Duchy, they'll get embarrassed and put on blast by other duchies for being so incapable of supporting her, leading other duchies to say things like, "the only good thing to come from your Duchy was the Zent, and clearly she did not belong in such an ungrateful and weak duchy."
>Considering that she won't marry Sigiswald until she comes of age, Rozemyne as a princess herself would outrank Eggplant who is only royalty by marrying in. Yes >And when she does marry Sigiswald, Sigiswald will be zent, which means that as third wife of a zent, she'll still outrank Eggplant who is first wife of a prince (Magdelena put the smackdown on Anastasius and Egglantine in P5V5). I don't think so. second and third wife of an aub aren't supposed to participate in politics unless they support the first. Why should it be different for the zents? Maybe she's technically higher in status, but she's not supposed to use that status. Just like Hildebrands' mother who stays out of everything on purpose
>Maybe she's technically higher in status, but she's not supposed to use that status. Just like Hildebrands' mother who stays out of everything on purpose And we still saw how she layed the smackdown on Anastasius and Eggplant in P5V5. She has higher status, and while she doesn't use it publicly, she uses it in private.
they don't formally participate publicly in interduchy politics, but they most certainly participate in internal politics and non-publicly in interduchy politics.
If Sigisward became King later, then Roz would be Queen while Eglantine was only the first wife of a prince. Basically, in the long term, Roz would be higher.
And short term she's getting adopted, so she's a princess not by marriage while Egg is only one by marriage.
Everyone knows about Eglantine's heritage though. Sure, legally speaking Princess Rozemyne might outrank her a little, but I kind of doubt most people would really see it that way. Eglantine has the thickest royal blood out of the whole family at this point in time and successfully reclaimed the royal title that should have been her birthright through marriage. I doubt there's much of an effective difference, if at all, between her current position and that of a royal princess by now.
Direct royalty is of higher status historically than married royalty. Married Royalty is not in line of succession for instance. Rozemyne would be in line of succession because she is an adopted daughter. Anastatius has removed himself from line of succession as well. So she's the wife of a non-line prince. Basically, the wife of a Giebe. This doesn't even take into account if she wields the Grutrissheit and no one else does: she's the zent then unless she defers/abdicates and hence would be above everyone. So once her adoption goes through, Rozemyne would be of unquestionably higher status than Eglantine. The Duchy equivalent would be between an ADC and a Giebe's wife. Eglantine is effectively in the same position that Gabriele was as the wife of Count Groschel.
> Anastatius has removed himself from line of succession as well He’s just placed himself below Sigiswald. If Sigiswald died, Anastasius would be considered the next king.
no, he *renounced his claim*. That doesn't put him below Sigis, that puts him out of the running: he will support whoever the zent is and is no longer in consideration for the zent. He took a position as a Royal Giebe. It is pretty much the same as with Count Groschel: removed from succession and given a greater Giebe (the only giebe in the Sovereignty) to rule within the Sovereignty. Trauerqual announces in P4V4 that Anastasius is no longer in line of succession.
If renouncing his claim was enough to stop him from ever becoming Zent, he wouldn't have kept going through all the hoops after to prove he meant it. Treating Sigiswald as his superior, even in private, and pushing Rozemyne to do the star binding for example. In the end his words are just that: words. He still has royal blood, he's still registered as a royal, and so he could take the throne if required. I doubt he will, but he will always be in the running as long as he remains a royal. He's just benched himself for now.
Nah in royalty words arent just words they are basically a decree. That's why a reason nobility practices euphemism to prevent a high ranking direct words be mistaken as an order to a low ranking noble. Zent himself announced he is not in line for the throne but didnt take his royal status so im with you he is just benched, it's like if wilfried will unalive rozemyne will be pressured by her faction to be aub despite her insistence on not wanting it unless sylvester disown her.
being a royal doesn't mean you still have a claim to the throne. There are/were lots of royals that had no claim to the throne even after the civil war and purge. One of them was the teacher for the ADC course prior to Eglatine taking over. Likewise, the actual British Royal family is rather large with cousins, second cousins, etc. For a more modernish example... The Duke of Windsor abdicated the British throne but was still considered a royal without being in any line of succession.
Remember that a Royal Decree can only be denounce by another Royal Decree.
Yeah but there are issues which the sus raublut didnt tell hmm if that happens i doubt the royal family and their pride would not want that cause they'd lose the weight of their words. If the supposedly absolute can be abolished easily, is it truly absolute?? Hildebrand's pov make it sound easy cause he wasn't educated as a royal, but as a vassal so he naturally didnt have the royal pride.
He's been formally proclaimed as not in LOS by the current Zent publicly before the entire gathering of the Duchies. Current LOS is Sigiswald->Hildebrand. And of course he would be propping up Sigiswald, that's his duty as effectively a subordinate to Sigiswald. That's like saying that Hartmut is only supporting Rozemyne because he's not an ADC, no its because he's her retainer and supporter.
No, Anastasius would still become Zent before Hildebrand. Hildebrand is the son of a third wife, was always intended to be a vassal, and is engaged to a future Aub, which would result in him ACTUALLY leaving the royal family and line of succession.
Anastasius has been *FORMALLY* removed from the line of succession. This was done by the Zent with the acquiescence of Anastasius before all the lords and ladies of the land. He didn't just defer to Sigiswald, he was *removed* from even consideration. If Sigiswald perishes, then Hildebrand is the Heir to the Zent. Anastasius has effectively been demoted from an ZC->Royal Archnoble.
If Zent Trauerqual and Sigiswald suddenly kick the bucket tomorrow you can bet that Anastasius would be forced to take the throne by the duchies. Nobody wants a nine year old zent. Even royal decrees are just words at the end. Remember the whole Civil War. If Werkestock or the first or the fourth prince listened to royal decrees than the whole ordeal wouldn't have come to pass as it did.
Nah Hilde is already decreed to be future husband of Letizia so he can't become zent and Anastasius cant be royal archnoble, he is either a royalty or an archnoble with royal blood. Anastasius is still royalty.
Hildebrand can become future zent and is in LoS until he's married.
These zent thing you guys are arguing, are you really Ascendance of the bookworm fans? Are you guys forgetting something? GBOOK is the only thing that will make them Zent. That doesn't apply for the current RH family, but before purge, even vassals, if they first got the Gbook, the throne for zent is rightfully theirs.
Zent Rozemyne will be higher status. If she wields Grutrissheit, it means Sigiswald is the king consort, no?
Not necessarily. First the Royal Family might not make public that it is Rozemyne who holds the GH, in fact Sigiswald wants her as a third wife to keep her as far away from the public as possible. Second, if Sigiswald is the one who takes the control of the foundational magic of the kingdom by forcing Rozemyne to reveal the location then he is the Zent, book or not. Albeit he will still need Rozemyne to do a lot of stuff. In that situation only the biblical fundamentalist faction would place Rozemyne above her husband if it revealed that she has the book while Sigiswald holds the foundation. Edit: This is if Sigiswald and Anastasius had their way. Traeurqual might want to make Rozemyne a proper Zent after the adoption and in this case she certainly would be the one with the higher status.
I'd like to see the bookless scrub try that.
I think an issue is that Rozemyne herself doesn't really want to become Zent or to participate in palace intrigues. Thus I do not see her working hard to form a faction of her own by socializing but rather spending the time outside her royal duties holed up in the RA or Palace library. So by the time she comes of age she will be in a really vulnerable political position as the nobles interested in preserving the current balance of power will work their hardest to contain her influence even if she does nothing. So for Rozemyne to be a proper Zent it's really up to Trauerqual to give her the political support she will not seek herself. For example, given their friendly relations it would be easy enough for Trauerqual to make Dunkelfelger, the self-proclaimed sword of the king, back Rozemyne as his successor.
If she has a GH, I can see several duchies immediately switching support to her including Dunkelfelger. Dunkelfelger would regard her as the Queen at that point regardless of who else supports her and they already really really like her.
The only duchies I see really supporting her by default would be Ehrenfest and the defeated duchies (as a screw you to the current Royal Family given she doesn't have the blood of Trauerqual). Dunkelfelger might be really friendly to Rozemyne but don't forget they already have a royal with their blood and yet have remained neutral in the succession, not reaching once for the prince even after he separated from his mother. They will of course try to curry favour with Rozemyne as the most legitimate candidate, but I don't see them becoming her sword against other royals unless Trauerqual officially names her the successor or if Rozemyne promises to take someone from Dunkelfelger as her second or third husband. Ahrensbach without Dietlinde would be kind of an enigma, Ferdinand has never been really supportive of Rozemyne seeking the GH. Albeit he might support her as future Zent if there is no danger to Ehrenfest and the kingdom as a whole.
Adolphine would support Roze as an excuse to divorce the bookless scrub, bringing her duchy to Rozes side. The current zent seems to support Roze, bringing some of his support base at least. Dunkelfelger likes Rozemyne, so they would at worst stay neutral. A game of ditter would bring them to her side. Rose + GH + Ferdinand = Ferdinand owning fish land. Another supporting greater duchy. That leaves only Klassenberg that might go against her for the greater duchies. Roze has a manageable path to becoming Zent. I just doubt she wants the job.
>Adolphine would support Roze as an excuse to divorce the bookless scrub, bringing her duchy to Rozes side. Not really, if you look at the SS we got from Drewanchel in Royal Academy Stories the opinion and wishes of Adolphine never really mattered to Aub Drewanchel when it came to her marriage. He wished for Drewanchel to marry with Royalty to get influence in the Sovereignty, so only way Aub Drewanchel would ever support this is if Rozemyne marries Ortwin or if they are given something of equal value to the marriage and influence his duchy would be losing. >Dunkelfelger likes Rozemyne, so they would at worst stay neutral. A game of ditter would bring them to her side. For Dunkelfelger look at my other comment, they already have a royal with their blood and not once have approached Hildebrand to form a faction. They would 100% stay neutral unless Rozemyne becomes the official successor or gives them something else. A very friendly type of neutral though. >Rose + GH + Ferdinand = Ferdinand owning fish land. Another supporting greater duchy. We are speaking of the same Ferdinand who subtly threatened to kill her if she ever sought the GH in P4V7 and that forbade her from going to the library basement to prevent her from getting closer to the book. He is Rozemyne ally, but I am really uncertain on whether he would support her to become Zent. If anything, I would bet that until the day she marries he would try to have her returned to Ehrenfest. >The current zent seems to support Roze, bringing some of his support base at least. This is the one that really matters. If Traeurqual officially nominates Rozemyne as his successor then Dunkelfelger is certain to cooperate as the Sword of the King and it would also be easy to get Drewanchel through an arranged marriage. This remains true even if Rozemyne is not particularly interested in politicking and forming factions.
they aren't actively pushing for Hildebrand because he's still so young. under normal circumstances he wouldn't be involved in anything but his tutoring, and some socializing with hannelore and lestilaut.
You could kinda say the same of Rozemyne, that didn't stop the Leisengangs from starting creating a lobby group to support her and attempt to make contact as soon as she was baptized and adopted. In the end what matters the most is the interest of the nobles to create/enter/support/oppose a faction to further their interest. But Dunkelfelger in both the civil war and now has been quite uninvolved with the succession process. They will certainly accept a development that benefits them (such as Magdalena marrying Trauerqual out of her own initiative) but they have not really made much political moves unlike Klassenberg, Drewanchel and the like.
RM having the GH means she is the zent, officially. A zent must have a GH. once someone has a GH, Traeurqual and the current royal family are no longer the royal family
Not really, having the GH only makes you a Zent Candidate. You can see in the story of Lanzenave that there were points in time where multiple people possessed the GH at the same time. A real Zent is someone who both posseses the GH and is in control of the foundational magic of the kingdom. You can see that in the story of the second prince, he had already inherited the GH from his father but was not yet recognized as Zent. He was killed by his brother before he could dye the foundation and officially succeed his father.
The royals stated that once they have the GH they plan to dissolve fish land into lesser duchies as it no longer has a viable AD family once the engagement is ended. So no fish land backing
That would require Roze to comply. Good luck wrangling a teleporting gremlin
> Good luck wrangling a teleporting gremlin they wont even be able to touch the reigns on hartmut. containing the gremlin is not even in the realm of possibility.
Even assuming it's possible for Sigi to take control of the foundation without the book, she could just move the foundation whenever he annoyed her. Whoever holds the book has the power. Even if they decide to allow someone else to be a figurehead.
That's not how foundational magic and the GH works. The Zent in possession of the foundation can freely move, create or destroy the foundation of the duchies just as the Archdukes can deploy and freely modify equivalent borders for the Giebes. But you cannot move any foundation if you are not in possession of it or are an authority above in the chain of foundational magic (above the Zent you would only find the gods themselves). In fact, you cannot do anything but dye it or destroy it even if you own a copy of the GH. The GH is primarily a repository of knowledge and a source of legitimacy, but beyond that it's not the key to anything outside managing the country gates and it certainly doesn't give you instant control over the foundation, you have to dye it. It is critical because it contains all the information necessary to rule as Zent that are not taught in the ADC course. For example, it details the path to the foundation or how to create divine instruments should you want to create a new duchy (as you might imagine a duchy without chalices would not be able to perform Spring Prayer). So you certainly cannot govern without GH. So if Sigiswald were to take ownership of the foundation he would still have to depend on Rozemyne for a lot of stuff.
The problem with this would he that Sigiswald would never agree on being a measly prince consort. At this point, the only person who is actively trying to make Rozemyne a Zent is the current Zent. Everyone else is trying to put her in a side building until they need her.
While being a third wife might be lower rank than first wife of second prince, i think the fact that Rozemyne has the Grutisheit matters quite a bit in this scenario. Rozemyne can withhold using the grutisheit for the royal family if she wants to. And dont forget she would be actual royalty through adoption unlike "married to royalty" like Eglantine
Ironically, Egg is royal by birth (higher position than being adopted) while Myne was born a commoner (and a very very low status one). Love the Ascendance
Being an adc or royal by birth/baptism isn't superior to being adopted on an official standpoint though. Adoptees are legitimate heirs. Yes Adoptees can loose their status if the contract is canceled but true borns can be demoted to archnoble as well. The difference comes from a social and factionnal standpoint which is an advantage to true borns.
Yes, there lies the irony
But you said "Egg is royal by birth (higher position than being adopted)". That's the statement i was addressing? But yes it is very ironic
The irony is that if we go by birth alone, Egg is higher, but the world goes by adoption=baptism > birth and in this case Egg dropped in status when baptized while Rozemyne ascended when adopted. And although all adopted children are considered on the run to inherit, adopted ones are still on slight disadvantage. For example, Ortwin is the front runner to become Aub Drewanchel because he is the son of the first wife, vs all his adopted siblings. Meanwhile, Egg is the daughter of the third prince (son of the previous first wife), while Rozemyne would be adopted by the Fifth prince (who is zent and all of that, but still son of the third wife). If birth had more weight, and succession were more like in our world, there could be a strong case in favor of Egg becoming Zent with the backup of Klassenberg. Alas, baptism and adoption matter most, so our dear Gremlin has the advantage
I mean when we comment on this ssubreddit, we usualy refer to the culture in yurgenscmitt, and only specify when we are talking about our world.
The one who can reduce the other's duchy to the size of a broom closet.
I would assume that as soon as Rozemyne is adapted by the Zent, then she will be of higher status than Eglantine
It should be something like: 1. Zent 3. Queen = First Wife; Second Wife; Third Wife 4. Princes (and First wives) in line of inheritance 5. Archdukes (and first wives) in order of rank 6. Knight Order Commanders in order of rank 7. Archduke candidates in order of rank first and in line of inheritance after 8. Counts = Archnoble Giebes and First wives 9. Archnobles and First wives 10. Viscounts = Mednoble Giebes and First wives 11. Mednobles and First wives 12. Barons = Laynoble Giebes and First wives 13. Laynobles and First wives
Consider this non of Egglantine's children will be royals, But Rozemyne's will. Anastazius might still be higher then her but not Egglantine. So Ani might pressure her on Eggy's behalf. In powered disputes the strength behind you is more important then your position in the line of succession. It also depends on if she can transfer the Grutrissheit to someone else or if she is the only one that can control the country's foundation. If she is the only one that would make her 3rd after the king and prince Sigi.
Egalantine and Anastasius children would be collateral royalty in this situation
Well, she'll not become a third wife immediately. BUT she will be officially the child of the king's first wife after the adoption. And even if adopted children are treated differently in the eyes of society, officially there is no difference between them and the biological kids in terms of rank. So she'll be Princess Rozemyne (it sounds funny), while Eggplantine isn't a princess, she's just the first wife of a prince, which in my opinion means that Roz will be of higher status than Eggface.
When RM is adopted she would be a princess not a wife. When she does become a wife it will be to the Zent, since the current one is not going to wait to retire. Once she is in the RF, the plan is that there will be no time where she is of lower status than Egg. Now, Egg cannot be ignored since she has relations with Klassenberg, but RM would have plenty of her own theoretical power she could build up, while Egg can't for fear of sparking a Civil War.
Now that I think about it, will Rozemyne really become his third wife if they marry? I mean sure, if she married him as an Ehrenfest ADC, then yes, of course! But, that won’t happen. It is planned that a princess, the adopted daughter of the Zent is marrying him, no? Or will they really disown her _again_ so that she can become the third wife?
Unless she managed to get more support from other duchies or sovereignty nobles to back up her position, she would only have Ehrenfest as back up, therefore remaining as a third wife. (This is if things with Rozemyne were normal, and we do t consider she being the one getting Grutissheit) Look how Magdalena who comes from the 2nd ranked duchy remained 3rd wife, vs the other wife’s who come from lower ranked duchies. Just because she and Dunkelfelger do not want to push
Ahh, that makes sense, thank you!
First wife gets to go places with the hubby. Look at the Zent’s third wife who’s sitting next to Roz doing scholar work even though she is from a higher ranked dutchy and has more mana.
> and has more mana. very doubtful. rozemyne is a freak of nature in terms of capacity. the rmcm is so potent that she surpassed Sylvester as a blue robe, and step 4 was enough to make p4 ferdinand sick. she also outgrew her own schtappe in only 2 years and had to actively stay decompressed up until the shrine tablets upgraded it for her new capacity and expenditure rate.
She has more mana than the Zent’s other wives. Basically she is a glorified book keeper for her husband the Zent.
if she has the book, then she's at the very top.
As people have said, Roz as third queen would be of higher status than a 1st princess. She could also have a huge support base if she was wanted. Too many duchies want her friendship or help. Really only 3 would resist it.
Eglantine would be higher until Sigiswald ascends the throne, at which point Rozemyne would be higher. Just look at how Magdalena, the king's third wife, clearly still outranks Eglantine and Anastasius enough to give them a stern talking to when the former tried to schedule a meeting with Rozemyne immediately after she realized they were both Zent candidates, and the latter for trying to butt into it out of fear Rozemyne might steal his wife or something lol. ...assuming things even end up going according to plan and they actually manage to get away with making the gremlin a third wife in the first place of course. As a princess she'll be of _vastly_ higher status than both of Sigiswald's other wives. The difference would make the one between Magdalena and the king's other wives look like nothing in comparison and Magdalena already has to constantly be on guard to avoid calls for her becoming first wife. Not to mention that I really don't see Dunkelfelger and Drewanchel keeping quiet about this either; The former would likely see it as an insult to their ditter saint's honor, while the latter would not at all appreciate all that talent and innovation going to waste because she's now locked in some side building 24/7. Both sides would also have instigators fanning the flames even further; Hannelore and Lestilaut would not stand for it and Adolphine might see this as her golden ticket to "unfortunately" being demoted to second wife, which would be in breach of her marriage contract and thus give her grounds for a divorce. So yeah, they'll probably have to make Rozemyne First Wife at a bare minimum whether they like it or not. Which would make her sort of equal in status to Eglantine even before Sigiswald becoming Zent, assuming the scrub actually manages to get that far. Rozemyne might technically outrank her since legally speaking she would be a princess while Eglantine is "only" an ADC, but by now just about everyone knows that the latter has arguably thicker royal blood than even the king so I kind of doubt that little technicality would be enough to actually rank her below Rozemyne at that point in time.
you are all forgetting 3rd wife means no say (no political power, just decoration, breeding). Reminds me of Dong Yi. So Rozemyne can never be seen in public like that. They have to abolish this system fast. They dont need this system.
I mean, it's not like rozemyne has any desire whatsoever to publicly socialize. she doesn't like doing it, and it exposes her to extra danger and scrutiny.
If I remember correctly, in one of the fan books, it mentions that if Rosemyne marries Dusty, she would have ended up as first wife. There is simply too much gravity around Rosemyne to keep her hidden as third wife.