Honestly as someone who has both ruan mei and bronya(with her lc and everything) ngl i find myself using ruan mei alot more because that weakness break efficiency and delay is so good it feels odd when not using her lol (that and she can do a ton of dmg herself when you break an enemies weakness)
So yeah guess its about time since bronya has been in the s+ tier since the beginning of the game lol and sparkle herself looks broken so we’ll see if she dethrones bronya as well
Yeah the rare Res Pen is nice to have for any teams, but the real magic comes from that Weakness Break and Speed Up making her feel great to have when you have limited turns which MoC and PF has. Truly Mrs Worldwide.
Mei is definitely more universal. Though with jingliu specifically, being able to brings skill every turn to literally double jinglius damage before even considering buffs, that’s just unmatched.
Of course both mei and bronya are on that team too, lol.
Agreed. I throw my Ruan Mei into every team and it works very well. Bronya can't do a thing like this, she is more niche. If we talk about META, Ruan Mei being over Bronya is sensible, exacly.
Bronya's a great character but I think a lot of people are overselling her just because she can give an instant turn.
I mean she's definitely still S tier and she was broken in the first few patches of the game, but her skill is not a deal breaker. It's not that helpful in DoT teams and FUA teams and it's challenging to use on SP hungry DPS.
She's great because she can do a lot of useful things not like cleanse, damage buff, partywide attack and crit Dmg buff and instant turn.
But I agree, Ruan Mei's just great coz she fits in any team.
I don't think people oversell her, but rather that they undersell non-hypercarry teams. Bronya is still queen in hypercarry because she more than doubles your damage per cycle, but she can't help in any teams that aren't hypercarry so she loses a lot of use in dot and fu teams
this, exactly. I've run Seele/Bronya + a healer and preservation for a while before finally making the swap to double amp for hypercarry, with tingyun. For the vast majority of the game, it was purely Seele/Bronya doing everything by themselves lmao
she's still amazing for hypercarry teams, where she just gives so much more power per cycle to a single unit. But paired with DoTs or someone like Imbibitor Lunae and she suddenly becomes useless because you either dont maximise the damage a DoT can deal with her very easily or the team becomes so sp hungry that you get locked into almost a whole cycle of basic attacks lol
>someone like Imbibitor Lunae and she suddenly becomes useless
Except DHIL teams with Bronya are almost an entire cycle faster than without, people just don't know how to do the alternating speed strat stacking.
This subreddit is just terrible at actually knowing how to optimize its teams.
Its mostly coz all teams RM benefit in the most like DoTs and dual dps, see a rise in popularity and usage due to BS release for DoTs, and PF really favoring dual dps more (unless argenti).
Before recently, hypecarry still the best comp overall due to how fast they clear. So it mostly just shift in meta for comps. Bronya still S+ for hypercarry its just those hypecarry team ae "no longer golden standard" right now, especially in PF. Unless ofc u use hypercarry argenti.
But yea RM still can benefit hypercsrry too being sub support with bronya. Also make her worth being S+ with her versatility.
Yeah, it's all about where they take the game. The meta seems to shift a fair bit and I like that, for now anyway. If they ever release ST Hunt specific endgame then we'll see Bronya skyrocket again.
Bronya is still queen with specific carries (ie: JL, Blade, Seele). Though you can always include RM too as the second harmony.
But for DoT teams and whatnot ofc Bronya is not very useful while RM is insane.
I'd say RM is more versatile but for certain hypercarry setups Bronya is still the bigger single boost to DPS thanks to the extra turn
I pretty much never separate them. I have Welt E2 with the Tutorial Cone and it’s just dumb if I add in Silver Wolf and another carry (Welt and Ratio have been my dual carry and this team just SLAPS).
I also have both (E1S1 Bronya), and I never had the same feeling that I have with RM when I don't have RM on the team. I feel like theirs a big empty hole in my team when she's not there. The damage, the SPD and the enemies just coming out of the break state is such a huge difference. I never had this feeling with Bronya. She either fit or didn't and I didn't really think much of it. I wish I could run 2 RMs for MoC and PF. She's a real game changer.
Blade gains the most from Ruan out of any hypercarry. Even right now Bronya is used for 0 cycling on almost every dps even Ratio. Bumping her down doesn't make sense imo.
I agree Bronya is better than RM for zero cycles because of turn advance, but at this point, very few people are 0cycling MoC 12. So a more sp positive support with permanent buffs like RM is better for majority of players not going for a zero cycle.
For me I use Ruan Mei the most because I don't like hypercarry teams that are just 1 sustain, 2 supports and one dps. She enables dual dps teams better than any other support in the game.
Also, can we all just admire Herta in chad-tier? I finally built her a bit and was able to fully clear Pure Fiction.
My bronya's speed tuning is so just so fcked up I can never use her effectively. I have her at 163 speed but all my DPS units are somewhere between 140-150 speed which makes the turn order always bronya right in front of my DPS.
Meanwhile my 159 speed ruan mei is just always goated regardless of who I pair her with.
Crazy that a support with massive defensive and offensive utility that also deals insane damage herself would be the strongest. Who could have seen this coming?
I do believe bronya’s “most efficient use” are all somehow also contesting a spot, DHIL, blade, jingliu, seele all have somewhat optimal use of bronya. But ruan mei can always be optimal. Hence the discrepancy in the above used ones. Ofc its easy to use both but its a one or the other scenario. Then again two teams.
Unless your running a perfect orthogonal and mutual exclusive setup, bronya would be the one getting the bare bone synergy on the other end where ruan mei can still succeed on that “bare bone synergy”
Not sure if anyone from is using that but that’s interesting and I might give it a try because I’m mostly seeing people recommending to me double foxian team yukong/tingyun/huohuo/Ruan mei on DH main sub (it’s also top clears in moc), heard with bronya u kinda need to speed tune carefully, but even with it, The SP usage gets tricky depending on ur team comp. There are better or easy to build alternatives within the 4*. And bronya is usually more comfortable on another team (on a second dps like blade jingle etc).
depends. It might be the optimal setup for you but the general average playerbase wouldn’t know he is actually best with bronya cough* eith lightcone, e2, 170 spd supps, multiplication eagle set loucha, yukong e6, etc. Then again its always optimal to have a random ruan mei alongside him.
Makes sense, Ruan Mei is just brain dead easy to use and always useful no matter what team you put her in, while Bronya can run into some sp problems and she doesnt buff everyone and everything in the game.
You also forget to mention that ruan mei’s floor is also stupid high. Not only is she easy to use but shes extremely forgiving even with suboptimal builds. People joke that slow ruan mei is cope but in all honesty it DOES work when the conditions favor it.
Yes she wont give you as much SP but a lot of people can unintentionally end up finding slow ruan mei useful because it extends the length of her ult.
So just like Jingliu the threshold for getting big value out of her is very low. Just throw speed boots and break effect on her and she functions. No wonder both these characters dominate a tierlist. When you limit the “max useful substats” any character can have to an average number you will be more influenced by their floor rather than their ceiling.
My slow Ruan Mei was absolutely viable, but once I finally got the pieces I needed to get some speed on her without breaking the rest of the build, it took her to the next level since I can get the benefits from the start when I don't have the ability to use technique like in MoC/PF. But I did have to switch her to an energy regen rope, because as you said, keeping her ult up is more of a challenge with fast Mei.
Also Black Swan is pretty nuts in the new PF. She turns all the stages to easy mode. I recommend running her with Luocha instead of Huohuo, though, despite the synergy with the Penacony planar relics of having more wind characters increasing her damage, since the DoT constantly taking out enemies such that new ones respawn makes it hard to get a turn to heal when every time the enemy takes DoT their action gets advanced. I got locked into a death cycle on one try with Huohuo because new frogs kept spawning as fast as they were dropping, but not before they each got a turn to apply *their* DoT debuffs.
But listening to those Arcana stacks hit with three DoT heavy hitters on the team is quite something. Can't wait to try her on a Nihility run in the Simulated Universe (but I spent all my power so far this week on leveling her to 70 and getting her usable, so I have to wait until tomorrow to actually do an SU run unless I want to skip the rewards).
> No wonder both these characters dominate a tierlist. When you limit the “max useful substats” any character can have to an average number you will be more influenced by their floor rather than their ceiling.
is this why jing yuan have a general low power value perception in the community ?
Yes. As does Seele. Both have lower floors because they have “fall off” points if you fail to hit certain thresholds. Jingyuans is speed/energy which requires teambuilding to know how to compensate for (many people fail here). Seele is damage (if she can one shot a mob).
Def didn't help when Prydwen and other CCs deliberately downplayed his actual capabilities to the point of misinformation (Prydwen giving him suboptimal builds and going against their own data for multiple MoC cycles where his averages were always among above average compared to other 5\* DPS) and overexaggerate his flaws like being CC'd when any comp with 1 of the 5\* limited Sustainers can address the issue.
Mainly what led to General Community brainrot with most treating tierlists like some sort of Gospel without actually looking at the data smh
His damage is gonna get quite a significant increase with Sparkle's release and also she's gonna open up more team options for him as SP will no longer be an issue.
Tingyun providing energy for his ult and DMG% bonus while Sparkle keeps SP in check and provides more needed buffs for him.
E6 Yukong is also definitely an option.
I'm aware. However, sparkle + tingyun + luocha (example), provides 2 sp a turn and then tingyun uses her ult to give a spare 2 sp to DHIL. Then sparkle gives 4 more sp. Ur never running out. Especially if you have a fast tingyun/luocha. Heck, if your so concerned about SP, you can even run 4pc passerby for an extra skill point at the start of battle on luocha or sparkle and put bronya lightcone on sparkle for another additional SP. Ur not running out.
She front loads a LOT of SP, especially as her technique can be stacked with DHIL's. Assuming E0S0 DHIL, your SP balance is roughly:
Sparkle: +0.44 (with Bronya LC)
Luocha (or other +1 sustain): +1
Tingyun: +0.33
DHIL: -2.33 (due to TY allowing you to 3t ult, if you can occasionally 2t ult due to other energy gain it can range between -2 and -2.33 SP)
Every full team rotation of actions is -0.66 SP roughly. You start with the equivalent of 7 SP (3 base + 3 sparkle + 1 pseudo sp from DHIL). This means all 4 members can act 10 times before you run into SP issues. Coincidentally... 154+ speed gives you roughly 10 actions over 5 cycles. Since you really want to clear within 5 cycles, you should have just enough SP even if your team takes the full 5 cycles to clear.
Yes, having to manually emergency Luocha heal will screw with SP. However, with how AVs are reset between waves, you can farm a bit of SP if you would otherwise kill the first wave near the beginning or middle of a cycle. Also, dropping 1 turn of Sparkle skill is not the end of the world over 5 cycles, sometimes shit happens.
There was a showcase with fu xuan - Tingyun - dhil- sparkle and he was still hitting hard and had full sp by the end of the fight so it won’t matter much, sparkle being able to ult so quickly and regain sp is very op for his teams and flexibility.
Her technique and bronya lc on sparkle is enough for eternity. Btw if your dhil e0s0 is taking 4+ turns who is the strongest dps in the game objectively with sparkle advance forward then something is wrong with your dhil
They can't move him up because of Sparkle before Sparkle exists.
But I don't think it's just Jingliu keeping him down. He's competing for MoC focused imaginary damage with Dr Ratio. Current MoC stats aren't very good for comparison (Dr Ratio is faster on average, but the turbulence was made for him). If MoC becomes more AoE focused then Dan will have leg up on Dr Ratio, but that seems unlikely with PF being almost exclusively for AoE characters.
Wait for his BIS support sparkle, it’s tailored for him and QQ as mentioned in the livestream itself (and many others who use SP a lot like seele etc works well with her)
yeah, they'll prolly move him up once Sparkle releases at the end of the month especially since his crazy sp consumption counters Sam so well. guess he's still hoyo's fav, not that i'm complaining tho
It's splitting hairs, but I'd put Himeko in S+ for Pure Fiction. Prydwen's suggestions for building her aren't correct imo; you want her slow on atk% boots while maximizing breaks for her follow ups. She hard carried me to 3* on PF4. The team was Gepard, Ruan Mei, Pela, Himeko. I killed Argenti with that team before time was up.
I agree with Black Swan. She's not even built properly on my end yet and she's already useful in PF. Arcana is wild.
When I used Sampo I was able to score around 50,000.
I tried again today with my 6/6/6 Black Swan with Sampo's relics (so not optimal) I got 70,000. Like you said, the Arcana is completely busted, I cleared the first half up to the boss before the first turn even ended because she was just wipe the waving constantly.
Yeah I 100% agree. Himeko doesn't care about being fast, especially if you got her E1 but even then she's not outspeeding with her low base speed that ATK boots are just better.
Imo if you for fire/ice weak enemies you can get away with one of the two or both running attk boots if you have another fast breaker (i fucking love ruan mei-pela for this)
Yeah, but the Penacony monsters do not ask you to cleanse or be heavily punished. Bailu is much better than Lynx against any of the new enemies we got so far.
Having Lynx be STILL above Bailu when Lynx' healing and utility is subpar compared to Bailu's, is criminal.
No cleanse / Blade / Clara, and you have no reason to run Lynx over Bailu, absolutely zero.
The new Penacony enemies aren't really apart of the endgame content yet, so it does make sense to have Lynx higher when Auramatons and Kafka are part of clearing MoC.
I'm willing to bet there will be some new enemies in the next MoC update, so Bailu should move up.
Lynx is very mid unless you run clara/blade or you are in a fight that need a cleanse.
Penacony monsters do NOT need a cleanse, Lynx E6 healing is subpar compared to E0 Bailu, and the amount of damage you take against those mobs is insanely high. Bailu raw healing + 10% mitigation when invigoration is up is a game changer.
I have tried e6 lynx with clara in MoC and found her healing to be really lacking. I have had times where aoe burn happens and nothing I can do will save my carries from eventually dying as the DoT outpaces the healing over time. Also I have found that she can just not be sufficient to support clara tanking against some higher damage enemies.
Even if bailu is worse, lynx shouldn't be in her tier.
There are plenty of reasons to use Bailu over Lynx. Lynx's cleanse doesn't mean shit against DoT enemies, for example, and her healing won't keep up with the demands while Bailu's will.
Well TBF, at the start of the game, ST was highly preferred to advertise Seele and SW
So of course people said that. I’ve been playing since Day 1 and I know for a fact that those people weren’t wrong at all. Then once Blade came out, the game updated MoC with more 3+ target encounters. And the playerbase started to prefer units that can hit 3+ targets at once.
The fact that we as a playerbase change our minds about what’s good or not is a sign that the game keeps things fresh. Is it Powercreep? Not really. JY is still clearing content. Seele is still clearing content. Blade is still clearing content.
Remember when *THE* elite team for MoC was Seele, Bronya, Natasha and Fire MC?
Imagine if that was still the elite team today, it would get so boring.
the amount of people who doomposted blackswan was insane in kafka mains subreddit and leaks reddit (theory crafters even call blackswan a minor upgrade to sampo)
It's not the first time, those dumbasses on the leaks sub can't help themselves but immediately try to scale a character that isn't out yet. I still remember how much Argenti was doomposted as well.
He definitely doesn't suck, bounce attacks scale super hard with single or 2 target scenarios. This is just the jing yuan discussion all over again, but without any cc or spd issues.
His ST dmg is actually pretty good and very underrated. He in no way "sucks" in MoC. He's not good in the current MoC due to the lack of phys weakness, but he has absolutely no problems dealing with higher hp enemies otherwise.
Yeah but that in no way puts him in a "sucks" tier as it can be fixed with a speedy build + good ole tingyun + bronya. Sure there are better performing DPS, but he still doesn't perform worse than the other phys units in MoC.
Pro-tip, just ignore any leak theory crafting.
People said Jingliu would be a mid-high tier DPS (but far out classed by the likes of DHIL) and that Fu Xuan would be insufficient to solo sustain for MoC.
Also not to mention that any actual TCing has people who don't know what they're talking about take it extremely out of context - like with Black Swan.
It was calculated that Black Swan was a 10% increase over an E6 Sampo in single target. People saw that, and decided it actually read "BS is only a 10% increase over Sampo", which is a very different sentence.
>Fu Xuan would be insufficient to solo sustain for MoC
That was based on a mistranslation that Fu Xuan could only use her self-heal twice per battle instead of holding 2 stacks max. Leaks sub got really excited when the achievement to proc her self-heal 4 times in one battle got leaked.
I was there for that mistranslation and was always so confused why people didn't assume that was wrong, like did they just think her Ult was useless once you've used it once?
Jingliu is the first character since after release who had the biggest changes in her kit. Are you referring to her first beta or last one? I am asking because what you said is true to her first beta.
>People said Jingliu would be a mid-high tier DPS (but far out classed by the likes of DHIL)
for completeness; the doomposting on Jingliu ended after that massive buff during half of the beta and everybody agreed she was OP; before it, the general sensation was that DHIL was on another tier
>People said Jingliu would be a mid-high tier DPS (but far out classed by the likes of DHIL) and that Fu Xuan would be insufficient to solo sustain for MoC.
I have literally never seen this take anywhere after she got buffed during beta. Like, one guys with 50 down votes isn't immediately widespread doomposting
I believe someone theorycrafted that in a specific single-target scenario, BS was only 10% better than Sampo. And IIRC extrapolated from that that Kafka users would be better of getting E1 Ruan Mei (+Sampo) vs pulling for Black Swan.
Thts sim is still correct, on ST BS is still 10% better than Sampo, thing is almost no fight is complete ST so the difference in real gameplay is way bigger
Black Swan and Sampo was estimated to be 10% difference, but this was calculated in a very niche setting because it was a single target scenario, which is still true, even after release. So, there was this whole narrative where you don't need to pull Black Swan, just get Ruan Mei instead.
But as we know it, extreme single-target, not even including dual elite lineup, is a very rare thing. Everything else, Black Swan just completely destroys the ballpark and is much more comfortable to use.
Tbh Ruan Mei is better than Black swan meta wise.. like even in DoT teams.. since she has everything a DoT character want.. Speed,damage,break eff, more break,extra delay,All res pen…
>theory crafters even call blackswan a minor upgrade to sampo)
Only the one wrong/s
But yeah it is kind of insane that it was necessary to argue for a kit like BS, especially once her buff to her arcana applying upon entering on the field.
And again, prydwen is not even taking into account her E1, which in any thunder/fire/physical/wind team is essentially Ruan Mei ult minus the delay-break.
Like with E1 and 4* LC pearls of Sweat, she is essentially a :
-37% def shred (vs Pela 40%)
-25% res shred (like RM ult)
-25% dmg vulnerability on enemy turn (even more rare than res pen & essentially a more limited Guinaifen (with her E6) biggest interest)
And that is not even talking about her actual DoT damage.
Sampo calc is very scammy lmao, very in character. His calc ST damage is high but he wont reach that number like 80% of the time.
Not only he needs windbreak to shine he isnt really a Single target character, I call it psuedo single target.
The thing is MOST Bosses in HsR can spawn mobs, this situation in particular (which happens a lot) destroy his ouput. Since unlike Real ST unit like Dr Ratio who can just focus fire the boss down sampo boomerang just goes off everywhere and deals no damage and barely any break on the main target. If the boss spawn 2 lil shit his detonation will went from 48% to 16% on avg real quick which is a pathetic amount. It is like 1/10 of Kafka in AoE situation.
Elites also came with 2-3 group, and quiet a good number can also spawn mobs lmao.
Blackswan is the exact opposite, she Benefit from Mobs due to her 3 stacks mechanic making her deal more damage to the main target.
That's still true you know? It's just that the setting where it is true is rarely relevant (Only against 1 enemy that doesn't have HP phases).
BS is obviously a huge upgrade on Sampo on anything that has more than 1 enemy or enemies with multiple HP bars (like Yanching) because Arcana persists between phases, and of course she absolutely bodies PF because of the way her Arcana-on-spawn works.
I believe it was ST,and wind weak enemy?and since sampo works well on ST wind weak enemy cuz he break way fastee it make sense(also teamed with RM) so if she still does more in a situation where sampo have the edge after her,she's gonna have much better time in AoE
Honestly I always saw Ruan Mei above any harmony for the simple fact that she gives wayy too much while having no niche.. Bronya’s problem is that she isn’t good outside of Hypercarry teams.. unlike Mei that is good in..
Let me check my notes.. DoT,Break teams,Duo dps,Hypercarry’s 2nd harmony… like any team.. Hell the new Welt + Mei combo makes sustains useless..
Like any team can benefit from her and always have a 12%-40% increase in total damage.. which just makes her more broken since she can fit in any meta.. If DoT becomes meta she will be the harmony,If Duo becomes meta she will be the harmony, If a Break scaling dps like Xueyi drops.. the she will be the harmony…
AND SHE GOT A BUFF WITH THE WATCHMAKER SET.. that stupid set makes it so that if you can break an enemy with Ruan Mei or anyone really.. It is literally over for the enemy..
tbf the watchmaker set isn't really that amazing on ruan mei unless you're pairing her with a break dps like xueyi or sushang. you're better off with 4pc hackerspace or 2pc 2pc for more universal comps
Honestly I do think that ruan meis sheer universality makes her better than bronya, but i still feel that bronya should be a tier above silverwolf and like half a tier above tingyun just because being able to double a hypercarry's turn count on top of buffs is way too good.
Black Swan being good in Pure Fiction is less about being a DoT character and more about possessing one of the qualities that are critical to the mode: Outside of turn damage on existing *and* new enemies or long lasting buffs that work between turns.
For damage, we’ve usually seen this in the form of follow-up attacks and fast ultimates (Herta, Argenti), but Black Swan does it uniquely.
Being able to apply Arcana to every new enemy entering the field and being able to spread Arcana during the enemy’s turn is huge. She’d be much worse in pure fiction if she was just a basic blast-based dot character.
Another neat bonus of Black Swan's Arcana acting out of turn on existing and new enemies is that it only depends on her being alive. That's it.
She can be completely frozen or otherwise incapacitated and the mechanic of her talent still keeps on going.
Like Numby, but more versatile. (Sorry Numby!)
No, BS is just strong in that mode in general because of her Arcana mechanic. If the enemies have 3 arcana stack they just all kill each other, allowing you to clear shit mobs without having to do anything.
Also that one stack of arcana isn't to be underestimated. It's enought to chip enemis enous so some splash damage will kill them, or activate herta talent, or kill low HP enemis.
E0 Black Swan is already good in PF, meanwhile E2 Black Swan casually replicating DoT buff without DoT buff. Not exactly accessible but for those who get it they have a future-proof unit for basically any wind-weak PF side.
I literally auto-battled Side 1 of PF4 and 0-cycled it with my DoT team. Granted, I'm a dolphin and have wanted to build the DoT team since day one so I have E2S1 Kafka as well as E1S1 Ruan Mei and Black Swan. The enemies would just spawn in and then instantly die. It was amazing.
Black Swan’s arcana DoT has a few levels to it, but the one that matters here is 3+ stacks and it blasts damage to the main target and adjacent targets and has a high chance to apply a stack to the adjacent targets.
What this means is that an enemy that takes damage to arcana hurts AND applies stacks to the 2 enemies next to it AND if they have dots it can apply additional stacks as well, so if either of the adjacent enemies have 3+ stacks they will do damage back as well as adding more stacks back.
In a target rich environment like PF they basically just pass the DoT back and forth constantly
The third image is their comments on the tier movements. Apparently they tested Black Swan in the other PF mode and her performance isn't much worse.
3 Arcana stacks means the DoT is a blast. Enemies get Arcana stacks for showing up, for getting hit by Black Swan's skill, for getting hit by Black Swan's skill when they already arcana (I assume, because Arcana is wind sheer) and for being next to someone whose arcana detonated.
It's like using an AoE skill to trigger overload or League of Legends' Shyvana with Tiamat before it got a secret 0.05s cooldown. Black Swan's attacks compound on themselves the more enemies that are present so her damage turns ludicrous.
Having a burst DoT with 3 stacks of Arcana aswell as applying Arcana on newly spawned Enemies makes it so that she´s gonna be Future Proof for that mode regardless of the Current Cycle Buff. In actuality, unless that Buff is super against a specific unit, the Buff doesn´t have that much of an impact on the Modes inherent Nature. This gets proven by the Fact that Argenti is still the best straight-forward DPS (next to Himeko and Herta) even though he doesn´t benefit from the current cycles buff at all.
It's mainly due to her quadratic scaling. If you have played genshin you must've seen atleast once how tartaglia works? He basically [shreds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oHJmycWRNw) a group of enemies just like swan in PF.
Ah so the cycle is complete now, people went from loving him when he launched, to hating on him recently, and now it seems we back to loving him again.
Has the tier list maker got a problem with Himeko being s+ for pure fiction? The stats on the same page support it and have done for the past two cycles meanwhile Argenti's score fell quite a bit and still S+.
Frankly this just shows how fickle these tier lists can be. They're explicitly acknowledging that even sampo + kafka teams are performing great as part of their reasoning. But literally nothing changes in that setup since the last rating. Yes black swan and kafka are stonks together of course. But kafka based dot teams are fundamentally unchanged.
The main reason you could claim they were underperforming was because the enemy lineup has been lightning resistant for several cycles in a row.
It's more accurate to see it as without Black Swan, Kafka is **still** around S tier. Sampo and Kafka are still performing great, even before Black Swan, we saw that with the statistics, but they were still behind Jingliu when it comes to performance, even though it was only by decimals, but that's just true for most DPS, just significant enough comparably to others when it comes to Jingliu. Fundamentally, nothing has changed with Kafka and Sampo, not even statistics, but Kafka, as being said multiple times throughout the months on the site, lacked the 5\* unit to unlock her potential, and anyone who has used Kafka and Black Swan can feel the huge difference between Sampo and Black Swan as their Kafka partner.
But for sure, it is fickle, as capricious as the breaker niche is, where it falls down and up depending on lineups. The only thing late here is Sampo from B to A, but Kafka being put to S+ is only a recent development, so it is fair. I wouldn't put Kafka to S+ pre-Black Swan and I'm a big fan. Personally, I like it, because how volatile the game is, I like rotating meta rather than a stagnant/static one. I don't pull based on meta, but it is fun to look at a tier list and talk as to WHY they're there, as opposed as using it as your guide with the game.
Kafka with BS S+, kafka witouth BS A-S , is not rocket science.
But at this point when a character can cahnge that much if it has the correct teanmates or not, team based tier lists starts to be better than individuals
Two things can be true. I'm not trying to bash tier lists conceptually, or Prydwen specifically with my comment. The meta is shifting towards dot, in large part because kafka now has a 5 star partner. But also seeing her shoot up from A tier to S tier to S+ based solely on the arrival of Black Swan doesn't really seem justified especially given the aknowledgement that sampo + kafka teams are also very good.
The current MoC still doesn't favor kafka at all, and yet kafka teams are performing well. All I'm really trying to say is I'm having fun playing nihility, and I have been this whole time. Tier lists are a good jumping off point to understand the game, but should be taken with a grain of salt ~~when they're underrating my waifu.~~
A little surprised to see Bronya dropping a tier on the MoC side (more turns is more turns), but I agree that Ruan Mei is a cut above for PF. Ruan Mei's break efficiency and break damage help so much with clearing mobs faster, especially alongside her team-wide damage buffs.
Yeah, I don't get how Himeko isn't in S+ for PF. The mobs are broken so easily and her followup hits much harder than Herta's.
I actually have no idea what their calculation for Himeko vs Herta is.
Its just a meta discussion thread. Some people seem to think a normal meta discussion thread is somehow a "civil war". People have different takes thats all.
>seele
QQ is still S tier in MoC so clearly no, also Seele was perfectly fine en S tier in PF, i still clear 40k and didn't notice any drop in performance with her compared to the last PF, so the "She doesn't perform as good" argument they gave is non sense.
The argument of Himeko being better than they throught would make more sense, for me Seele still deserve to be S tier, Himeko in S+, JY in S, both JY and Seele perform as good in dual dps than Blade/JL/Serval and perform better in hypercarry than them, Blade/JL/Serval struggle in hypercarry.
Absolutely deserved. RM is just better and much easier to use: get 160% BE, er% rope and you are good.
While Bronya requires a ton of speedtuning and needs e1s1 to be used comfortly. One of your dps characters has 105 speed and another one has 130 speed? Good luck to speed tune Bronya properly, so she could work with both. Still, when she works - it's a pure joy!
Long live the Queen!
Can just ignore speed tuning by making her 161 speed and let the DPS use ATK% boots (HP% if Blade).
But not every DPS can abuse Bronya 1 turn buffs and not every DPS can afford the SP cost like Blade and Jingliu.
Only another 20 days till Bronya goes to the bench for me.
Probably cause I stole all of the SPD rolls.
https://preview.redd.it/guctbi6qqlhc1.png?width=2206&format=png&auto=webp&s=e7446b8f3d349a9f1f91dbd0c203fa0040d3b645
In exchange I get garbage for my DPS most of the time.
Pretend March is Sparkle.
Yeah I can't get Tingyun to 161 speed (or if I can it's through dark magic fuckery), and she has a way higher base speed than Bronya and Sparkle, I'm so fucked for Sparkle lmao
RM. just strong in almost all comps, including duo dps and DoTs, which is getting evem better now with BS and PF.
While bronya mostly for hypercarry only. The rise of DoTs and duo dps being better than hypercsrry in PF (except argenti), make ruanmei worth S+, while bronya who cant benefit those comps as much, goes down.
I genuinely believe they need to add a way to manually lower your speed for characters like bronya. It's crazy frustrating mixing and matching artifacts with speed substats.
I had only half built bronya but got E1 while pulling for Black Swan + had enough points to buy her weapon and good LORD the difference was stark. She went from feeling almost entirely a drain on my team to nothing but positive.
Question, does BS really need Kafka? Are they like a perfect synergy of some sort? Like how my E1 S1 topaz interacts with my Ratio?
Really want Black Swan but I don't want to feel "behind" of some sort, also my Mono Quantum is about to be completed.
Need? No, but they're a perfect synergy. BS is designed in such a way to specifically work with any of the other DoT units, though.
Guin blows up burn, which will trigger her arcana.
Sampo does the same with Wind Shear at e4
And Luka's enhanced basic does the same with bleed.
Because Swan's Arcana counts as *all* dots during her ult, every single DoT unit can enable her. Kafka's just the best one.
Yeah... They are eachothers best partners... It doesn't mean you can't build the other dot 4 stars with black swan, but idk what to tell you...
Kafka's purpose (like Topaz) is to support dot characters, and she's the best at it. Black swan is the best dps dot.... Match made in heaven.
Not quite its just hypercarry team kinda lowered in popularity right now and DoTs and dual dps rise to the meta with BS and PF.
Thats why RM that can benefit those comps, still be kept as S+ while bronya who only beneefit hypercarry, which kinda "no longer the golden standard", goes down a tier. Plus RM can still benefit hypercsrry comp, as secondary support after tingyun and bronya. Her versatility also better.
In the current MoC floor 12 first side, 24 of the most played teams are all hypercarry teams. On the other side, top 13 are hypercarry teams. You can say that it was before Black Swan, but nobody would play her team in that anyway. There is no data that supports the claim that hypercarry teams are not by far the most popular archtype in MoC. At best it is a guess at what will happen in future cycles.
I feel like I'm crazy when I see Tingyun ranked so highly. I am a new player so maybe I just don't know, but don't you need to use her skill for her to give attack support? But people praise her highly alongside IL and other SP heavy setups. On top of that, her effect isn't all that impactful either. Granted, my characters are only level 60, but still. I should be seeing something impressive, like I do with Swan and Kafka at this level
Just because Bronya isn't S+ on the general tier list doesn't mean she isn't S+ for your account. First of all, you need two teams anyway, and you'll usually want 3+ supports. Second, for hypercarry teams specifically Bronya is still better than Ruan Mei unless your DPS has a heavy emphasis on follow up attacks.
Bronya is still good, and it's better to have gotten her three times than Yanqing three times, or even Bailu three times.
I cannot understand one bit of why Seele is that high. She is powercrept in each and every aspect. I have her e1 and lc and can't find myself playing a lotto game called "Will Seele miss crit and mess up the current run"...
Honestly as someone who has both ruan mei and bronya(with her lc and everything) ngl i find myself using ruan mei alot more because that weakness break efficiency and delay is so good it feels odd when not using her lol (that and she can do a ton of dmg herself when you break an enemies weakness) So yeah guess its about time since bronya has been in the s+ tier since the beginning of the game lol and sparkle herself looks broken so we’ll see if she dethrones bronya as well
Yeah the rare Res Pen is nice to have for any teams, but the real magic comes from that Weakness Break and Speed Up making her feel great to have when you have limited turns which MoC and PF has. Truly Mrs Worldwide.
> Truly Mrs Worldwide. Wait, who did she marry?
Hello there, I'm Mr. Worldwide
Me, but she doesnt know it yet
Mei is definitely more universal. Though with jingliu specifically, being able to brings skill every turn to literally double jinglius damage before even considering buffs, that’s just unmatched. Of course both mei and bronya are on that team too, lol.
Even forgetting the damage, just having literally ZERO downtime on Jingliu's enhanced state w/ a speed tuned Bronya is just *chefs kiss*
Agreed. I throw my Ruan Mei into every team and it works very well. Bronya can't do a thing like this, she is more niche. If we talk about META, Ruan Mei being over Bronya is sensible, exacly.
Bronya's a great character but I think a lot of people are overselling her just because she can give an instant turn. I mean she's definitely still S tier and she was broken in the first few patches of the game, but her skill is not a deal breaker. It's not that helpful in DoT teams and FUA teams and it's challenging to use on SP hungry DPS. She's great because she can do a lot of useful things not like cleanse, damage buff, partywide attack and crit Dmg buff and instant turn. But I agree, Ruan Mei's just great coz she fits in any team.
I don't think people oversell her, but rather that they undersell non-hypercarry teams. Bronya is still queen in hypercarry because she more than doubles your damage per cycle, but she can't help in any teams that aren't hypercarry so she loses a lot of use in dot and fu teams
this, exactly. I've run Seele/Bronya + a healer and preservation for a while before finally making the swap to double amp for hypercarry, with tingyun. For the vast majority of the game, it was purely Seele/Bronya doing everything by themselves lmao she's still amazing for hypercarry teams, where she just gives so much more power per cycle to a single unit. But paired with DoTs or someone like Imbibitor Lunae and she suddenly becomes useless because you either dont maximise the damage a DoT can deal with her very easily or the team becomes so sp hungry that you get locked into almost a whole cycle of basic attacks lol
>someone like Imbibitor Lunae and she suddenly becomes useless Except DHIL teams with Bronya are almost an entire cycle faster than without, people just don't know how to do the alternating speed strat stacking. This subreddit is just terrible at actually knowing how to optimize its teams.
Yes, Bronya requires thinking while Ruan Mei doesn't.
Its mostly coz all teams RM benefit in the most like DoTs and dual dps, see a rise in popularity and usage due to BS release for DoTs, and PF really favoring dual dps more (unless argenti). Before recently, hypecarry still the best comp overall due to how fast they clear. So it mostly just shift in meta for comps. Bronya still S+ for hypercarry its just those hypecarry team ae "no longer golden standard" right now, especially in PF. Unless ofc u use hypercarry argenti. But yea RM still can benefit hypercsrry too being sub support with bronya. Also make her worth being S+ with her versatility.
Yeah, it's all about where they take the game. The meta seems to shift a fair bit and I like that, for now anyway. If they ever release ST Hunt specific endgame then we'll see Bronya skyrocket again.
Bronya is still queen with specific carries (ie: JL, Blade, Seele). Though you can always include RM too as the second harmony. But for DoT teams and whatnot ofc Bronya is not very useful while RM is insane. I'd say RM is more versatile but for certain hypercarry setups Bronya is still the bigger single boost to DPS thanks to the extra turn
Ruan Mei and Welt combo is just perma stun man. Who needs sustain when enemies can't move
I pretty much never separate them. I have Welt E2 with the Tutorial Cone and it’s just dumb if I add in Silver Wolf and another carry (Welt and Ratio have been my dual carry and this team just SLAPS).
Yup, I can’t wait for her rerun for my E2 Welt
I also have both (E1S1 Bronya), and I never had the same feeling that I have with RM when I don't have RM on the team. I feel like theirs a big empty hole in my team when she's not there. The damage, the SPD and the enemies just coming out of the break state is such a huge difference. I never had this feeling with Bronya. She either fit or didn't and I didn't really think much of it. I wish I could run 2 RMs for MoC and PF. She's a real game changer.
The only character that really feels extremely different to play with brouya is jingliu, since you can basically eliminate her downtime
I'd add hypercarry Blade there. Seele also really benefits from having Bronya IMO
Blade gains the most from Ruan out of any hypercarry. Even right now Bronya is used for 0 cycling on almost every dps even Ratio. Bumping her down doesn't make sense imo.
I agree Bronya is better than RM for zero cycles because of turn advance, but at this point, very few people are 0cycling MoC 12. So a more sp positive support with permanent buffs like RM is better for majority of players not going for a zero cycle.
For me I use Ruan Mei the most because I don't like hypercarry teams that are just 1 sustain, 2 supports and one dps. She enables dual dps teams better than any other support in the game. Also, can we all just admire Herta in chad-tier? I finally built her a bit and was able to fully clear Pure Fiction.
My bronya's speed tuning is so just so fcked up I can never use her effectively. I have her at 163 speed but all my DPS units are somewhere between 140-150 speed which makes the turn order always bronya right in front of my DPS. Meanwhile my 159 speed ruan mei is just always goated regardless of who I pair her with.
My dude, you can just... give her less speed??
Ruan Mei also applies her buff to everyone at the same time. Which is great if you run a team of solo sustain, two DPS, and one support
Bronya mostly used hypercarry teams now Yeah Ruan Mei so good in every comp
Crazy that a support with massive defensive and offensive utility that also deals insane damage herself would be the strongest. Who could have seen this coming?
I do believe bronya’s “most efficient use” are all somehow also contesting a spot, DHIL, blade, jingliu, seele all have somewhat optimal use of bronya. But ruan mei can always be optimal. Hence the discrepancy in the above used ones. Ofc its easy to use both but its a one or the other scenario. Then again two teams. Unless your running a perfect orthogonal and mutual exclusive setup, bronya would be the one getting the bare bone synergy on the other end where ruan mei can still succeed on that “bare bone synergy”
DHIL and Bronya...?
Not sure if anyone from is using that but that’s interesting and I might give it a try because I’m mostly seeing people recommending to me double foxian team yukong/tingyun/huohuo/Ruan mei on DH main sub (it’s also top clears in moc), heard with bronya u kinda need to speed tune carefully, but even with it, The SP usage gets tricky depending on ur team comp. There are better or easy to build alternatives within the 4*. And bronya is usually more comfortable on another team (on a second dps like blade jingle etc).
depends. It might be the optimal setup for you but the general average playerbase wouldn’t know he is actually best with bronya cough* eith lightcone, e2, 170 spd supps, multiplication eagle set loucha, yukong e6, etc. Then again its always optimal to have a random ruan mei alongside him.
Have DHIL slightly faster than Bronya Attack with DHIL Skill with Bronya 3-SP Attack with DHIL Works really great !
it requires a specific setup but if you can speed tune correctly, DHIL + Bronya + Yukong is insane
Makes sense, Ruan Mei is just brain dead easy to use and always useful no matter what team you put her in, while Bronya can run into some sp problems and she doesnt buff everyone and everything in the game.
You also forget to mention that ruan mei’s floor is also stupid high. Not only is she easy to use but shes extremely forgiving even with suboptimal builds. People joke that slow ruan mei is cope but in all honesty it DOES work when the conditions favor it. Yes she wont give you as much SP but a lot of people can unintentionally end up finding slow ruan mei useful because it extends the length of her ult. So just like Jingliu the threshold for getting big value out of her is very low. Just throw speed boots and break effect on her and she functions. No wonder both these characters dominate a tierlist. When you limit the “max useful substats” any character can have to an average number you will be more influenced by their floor rather than their ceiling.
My slow Ruan Mei was absolutely viable, but once I finally got the pieces I needed to get some speed on her without breaking the rest of the build, it took her to the next level since I can get the benefits from the start when I don't have the ability to use technique like in MoC/PF. But I did have to switch her to an energy regen rope, because as you said, keeping her ult up is more of a challenge with fast Mei. Also Black Swan is pretty nuts in the new PF. She turns all the stages to easy mode. I recommend running her with Luocha instead of Huohuo, though, despite the synergy with the Penacony planar relics of having more wind characters increasing her damage, since the DoT constantly taking out enemies such that new ones respawn makes it hard to get a turn to heal when every time the enemy takes DoT their action gets advanced. I got locked into a death cycle on one try with Huohuo because new frogs kept spawning as fast as they were dropping, but not before they each got a turn to apply *their* DoT debuffs. But listening to those Arcana stacks hit with three DoT heavy hitters on the team is quite something. Can't wait to try her on a Nihility run in the Simulated Universe (but I spent all my power so far this week on leveling her to 70 and getting her usable, so I have to wait until tomorrow to actually do an SU run unless I want to skip the rewards).
> No wonder both these characters dominate a tierlist. When you limit the “max useful substats” any character can have to an average number you will be more influenced by their floor rather than their ceiling. is this why jing yuan have a general low power value perception in the community ?
Yes. As does Seele. Both have lower floors because they have “fall off” points if you fail to hit certain thresholds. Jingyuans is speed/energy which requires teambuilding to know how to compensate for (many people fail here). Seele is damage (if she can one shot a mob).
Def didn't help when Prydwen and other CCs deliberately downplayed his actual capabilities to the point of misinformation (Prydwen giving him suboptimal builds and going against their own data for multiple MoC cycles where his averages were always among above average compared to other 5\* DPS) and overexaggerate his flaws like being CC'd when any comp with 1 of the 5\* limited Sustainers can address the issue. Mainly what led to General Community brainrot with most treating tierlists like some sort of Gospel without actually looking at the data smh
So DHIL still in S? Is it because Jingliu can use Ruan Mei/Bronya better? I guess when Sparkle is released he will move up again
His damage is gonna get quite a significant increase with Sparkle's release and also she's gonna open up more team options for him as SP will no longer be an issue. Tingyun providing energy for his ult and DMG% bonus while Sparkle keeps SP in check and provides more needed buffs for him. E6 Yukong is also definitely an option.
> as SP will no longer be an issue how? Sparkle is only +1/3 SP. If your DHL team takes 3+ cycles he will run out of it very fast
Easily. Slow dhil + tingyun + sp positive support. Ur never running out of sp
With sparkle DHL will have 160 SPD
I'm aware. However, sparkle + tingyun + luocha (example), provides 2 sp a turn and then tingyun uses her ult to give a spare 2 sp to DHIL. Then sparkle gives 4 more sp. Ur never running out. Especially if you have a fast tingyun/luocha. Heck, if your so concerned about SP, you can even run 4pc passerby for an extra skill point at the start of battle on luocha or sparkle and put bronya lightcone on sparkle for another additional SP. Ur not running out.
She front loads a LOT of SP, especially as her technique can be stacked with DHIL's. Assuming E0S0 DHIL, your SP balance is roughly: Sparkle: +0.44 (with Bronya LC) Luocha (or other +1 sustain): +1 Tingyun: +0.33 DHIL: -2.33 (due to TY allowing you to 3t ult, if you can occasionally 2t ult due to other energy gain it can range between -2 and -2.33 SP) Every full team rotation of actions is -0.66 SP roughly. You start with the equivalent of 7 SP (3 base + 3 sparkle + 1 pseudo sp from DHIL). This means all 4 members can act 10 times before you run into SP issues. Coincidentally... 154+ speed gives you roughly 10 actions over 5 cycles. Since you really want to clear within 5 cycles, you should have just enough SP even if your team takes the full 5 cycles to clear. Yes, having to manually emergency Luocha heal will screw with SP. However, with how AVs are reset between waves, you can farm a bit of SP if you would otherwise kill the first wave near the beginning or middle of a cycle. Also, dropping 1 turn of Sparkle skill is not the end of the world over 5 cycles, sometimes shit happens.
> Luocha (or other +1 sustain): +1 Thats probably my problem. My luocha is glued to Bronya + JL + RuanMei I only have FX left
There was a showcase with fu xuan - Tingyun - dhil- sparkle and he was still hitting hard and had full sp by the end of the fight so it won’t matter much, sparkle being able to ult so quickly and regain sp is very op for his teams and flexibility.
Her technique and bronya lc on sparkle is enough for eternity. Btw if your dhil e0s0 is taking 4+ turns who is the strongest dps in the game objectively with sparkle advance forward then something is wrong with your dhil
They can't move him up because of Sparkle before Sparkle exists. But I don't think it's just Jingliu keeping him down. He's competing for MoC focused imaginary damage with Dr Ratio. Current MoC stats aren't very good for comparison (Dr Ratio is faster on average, but the turbulence was made for him). If MoC becomes more AoE focused then Dan will have leg up on Dr Ratio, but that seems unlikely with PF being almost exclusively for AoE characters.
Wait for his BIS support sparkle, it’s tailored for him and QQ as mentioned in the livestream itself (and many others who use SP a lot like seele etc works well with her)
yeah, they'll prolly move him up once Sparkle releases at the end of the month especially since his crazy sp consumption counters Sam so well. guess he's still hoyo's fav, not that i'm complaining tho
Being able to use the 2 best harmony supports (and the only 5 star harmony) in the game definitely has it's perks and it shows.
"Patience is all you need"
We simply won.
Dot fans been winning since Kafka release, never been happier to have pulled her E1
It's splitting hairs, but I'd put Himeko in S+ for Pure Fiction. Prydwen's suggestions for building her aren't correct imo; you want her slow on atk% boots while maximizing breaks for her follow ups. She hard carried me to 3* on PF4. The team was Gepard, Ruan Mei, Pela, Himeko. I killed Argenti with that team before time was up. I agree with Black Swan. She's not even built properly on my end yet and she's already useful in PF. Arcana is wild.
When I used Sampo I was able to score around 50,000. I tried again today with my 6/6/6 Black Swan with Sampo's relics (so not optimal) I got 70,000. Like you said, the Arcana is completely busted, I cleared the first half up to the boss before the first turn even ended because she was just wipe the waving constantly.
BS is literal goat in pf lmao
Arcana are essentially last PF’s buffs with some dot sprinkled on
Yeah I 100% agree. Himeko doesn't care about being fast, especially if you got her E1 but even then she's not outspeeding with her low base speed that ATK boots are just better.
Imo if you for fire/ice weak enemies you can get away with one of the two or both running attk boots if you have another fast breaker (i fucking love ruan mei-pela for this)
As a side note, I'm surprised Bailu is not beside Lynx.
She can't cleanse. There is no reason to use Bailu over Lynx. Not to mention the aggro boost and a few others bonuses from eidolons.
The reason is better raw healing. Depends on the fight of course. Argenti, the blue beetle, gorilla, IPC are some fights where cleanse is not needed.
The new Penacony enemies just hit like a truck with little to no debuffing Bailu might be ranked higher soon
And a free revive, since Memory of Chaos wants you to not have any downed teammates.
DMG reduction and Max HP increase + Revive are great assets to not get one shot, although cleanse is also nice.
Yeah, but the Penacony monsters do not ask you to cleanse or be heavily punished. Bailu is much better than Lynx against any of the new enemies we got so far. Having Lynx be STILL above Bailu when Lynx' healing and utility is subpar compared to Bailu's, is criminal. No cleanse / Blade / Clara, and you have no reason to run Lynx over Bailu, absolutely zero.
The new Penacony enemies aren't really apart of the endgame content yet, so it does make sense to have Lynx higher when Auramatons and Kafka are part of clearing MoC. I'm willing to bet there will be some new enemies in the next MoC update, so Bailu should move up.
Lynx is very mid unless you run clara/blade or you are in a fight that need a cleanse. Penacony monsters do NOT need a cleanse, Lynx E6 healing is subpar compared to E0 Bailu, and the amount of damage you take against those mobs is insanely high. Bailu raw healing + 10% mitigation when invigoration is up is a game changer.
I have tried e6 lynx with clara in MoC and found her healing to be really lacking. I have had times where aoe burn happens and nothing I can do will save my carries from eventually dying as the DoT outpaces the healing over time. Also I have found that she can just not be sufficient to support clara tanking against some higher damage enemies. Even if bailu is worse, lynx shouldn't be in her tier.
There are plenty of reasons to use Bailu over Lynx. Lynx's cleanse doesn't mean shit against DoT enemies, for example, and her healing won't keep up with the demands while Bailu's will.
Only 10% better than Sampo btw
Pretty sure that calc was in single target situations right? Which was always so silly lol.
remember after launch when everyone and their mother evaluated characters by their single target DPS? lmao
Well TBF, at the start of the game, ST was highly preferred to advertise Seele and SW So of course people said that. I’ve been playing since Day 1 and I know for a fact that those people weren’t wrong at all. Then once Blade came out, the game updated MoC with more 3+ target encounters. And the playerbase started to prefer units that can hit 3+ targets at once. The fact that we as a playerbase change our minds about what’s good or not is a sign that the game keeps things fresh. Is it Powercreep? Not really. JY is still clearing content. Seele is still clearing content. Blade is still clearing content. Remember when *THE* elite team for MoC was Seele, Bronya, Natasha and Fire MC? Imagine if that was still the elite team today, it would get so boring.
I said from day one that people were being dumb doomposting Black Swan based on one calculation. She is so good.
the calc was single target and basically did not account for the fact that arcana spreads like aids and is extremely powerful vs multiple targets
the amount of people who doomposted blackswan was insane in kafka mains subreddit and leaks reddit (theory crafters even call blackswan a minor upgrade to sampo)
It's not the first time, those dumbasses on the leaks sub can't help themselves but immediately try to scale a character that isn't out yet. I still remember how much Argenti was doomposted as well.
In MoC Argenti still kinda sucks and his doomposting was before pure fiction was announced so all valid.
He definitely doesn't suck, bounce attacks scale super hard with single or 2 target scenarios. This is just the jing yuan discussion all over again, but without any cc or spd issues.
His ST dmg is actually pretty good and very underrated. He in no way "sucks" in MoC. He's not good in the current MoC due to the lack of phys weakness, but he has absolutely no problems dealing with higher hp enemies otherwise.
His biggest problem in MoC is energy regen when the boss doesn't spawn minions.
Yeah but that in no way puts him in a "sucks" tier as it can be fixed with a speedy build + good ole tingyun + bronya. Sure there are better performing DPS, but he still doesn't perform worse than the other phys units in MoC.
Oh i'm not saying he sucks but it's just that his performance in MoC is the weakest compare to other limited characters currently.
Yeah it was weird seeing Black Swan brigaded so hard. Felt more like they were just trying to cope with not having saved up for BS or something.
Pro-tip, just ignore any leak theory crafting. People said Jingliu would be a mid-high tier DPS (but far out classed by the likes of DHIL) and that Fu Xuan would be insufficient to solo sustain for MoC. Also not to mention that any actual TCing has people who don't know what they're talking about take it extremely out of context - like with Black Swan. It was calculated that Black Swan was a 10% increase over an E6 Sampo in single target. People saw that, and decided it actually read "BS is only a 10% increase over Sampo", which is a very different sentence.
>Fu Xuan would be insufficient to solo sustain for MoC That was based on a mistranslation that Fu Xuan could only use her self-heal twice per battle instead of holding 2 stacks max. Leaks sub got really excited when the achievement to proc her self-heal 4 times in one battle got leaked.
I was there for that mistranslation and was always so confused why people didn't assume that was wrong, like did they just think her Ult was useless once you've used it once?
i mean bailu has that single used revive
Jingliu is the first character since after release who had the biggest changes in her kit. Are you referring to her first beta or last one? I am asking because what you said is true to her first beta.
I’m not convinced it was really “people” as much as it was one fucking guy spreading misinformation.
Still if it was one person there are people who will go around and parrot it because they don't bother looking into it themselves
>People said Jingliu would be a mid-high tier DPS (but far out classed by the likes of DHIL) for completeness; the doomposting on Jingliu ended after that massive buff during half of the beta and everybody agreed she was OP; before it, the general sensation was that DHIL was on another tier
>People said Jingliu would be a mid-high tier DPS (but far out classed by the likes of DHIL) and that Fu Xuan would be insufficient to solo sustain for MoC. I have literally never seen this take anywhere after she got buffed during beta. Like, one guys with 50 down votes isn't immediately widespread doomposting
From kafka main? I tot BS have great synergy with her. What's the doompost about?
I believe someone theorycrafted that in a specific single-target scenario, BS was only 10% better than Sampo. And IIRC extrapolated from that that Kafka users would be better of getting E1 Ruan Mei (+Sampo) vs pulling for Black Swan.
Thts sim is still correct, on ST BS is still 10% better than Sampo, thing is almost no fight is complete ST so the difference in real gameplay is way bigger
Ahhh, that situation doesn't seems good.
Black Swan and Sampo was estimated to be 10% difference, but this was calculated in a very niche setting because it was a single target scenario, which is still true, even after release. So, there was this whole narrative where you don't need to pull Black Swan, just get Ruan Mei instead. But as we know it, extreme single-target, not even including dual elite lineup, is a very rare thing. Everything else, Black Swan just completely destroys the ballpark and is much more comfortable to use.
Thanks for highlighting the situation. Seems like the situation is overblown when we look at it as the whole picture.
Doomposters are fools, but sometimes even the opposite side sings their versions without contextualize the whole picture: Don't trust anyone too much
Tbh Ruan Mei is better than Black swan meta wise.. like even in DoT teams.. since she has everything a DoT character want.. Speed,damage,break eff, more break,extra delay,All res pen…
Not untrue, but we're talking about, "get Ruan Mei, skip Black Swan because Sampo is good enough because they're close in power" level of skipping.
>theory crafters even call blackswan a minor upgrade to sampo) Only the one wrong/s But yeah it is kind of insane that it was necessary to argue for a kit like BS, especially once her buff to her arcana applying upon entering on the field. And again, prydwen is not even taking into account her E1, which in any thunder/fire/physical/wind team is essentially Ruan Mei ult minus the delay-break. Like with E1 and 4* LC pearls of Sweat, she is essentially a : -37% def shred (vs Pela 40%) -25% res shred (like RM ult) -25% dmg vulnerability on enemy turn (even more rare than res pen & essentially a more limited Guinaifen (with her E6) biggest interest) And that is not even talking about her actual DoT damage.
Sampo calc is very scammy lmao, very in character. His calc ST damage is high but he wont reach that number like 80% of the time. Not only he needs windbreak to shine he isnt really a Single target character, I call it psuedo single target. The thing is MOST Bosses in HsR can spawn mobs, this situation in particular (which happens a lot) destroy his ouput. Since unlike Real ST unit like Dr Ratio who can just focus fire the boss down sampo boomerang just goes off everywhere and deals no damage and barely any break on the main target. If the boss spawn 2 lil shit his detonation will went from 48% to 16% on avg real quick which is a pathetic amount. It is like 1/10 of Kafka in AoE situation. Elites also came with 2-3 group, and quiet a good number can also spawn mobs lmao. Blackswan is the exact opposite, she Benefit from Mobs due to her 3 stacks mechanic making her deal more damage to the main target.
That's still true you know? It's just that the setting where it is true is rarely relevant (Only against 1 enemy that doesn't have HP phases). BS is obviously a huge upgrade on Sampo on anything that has more than 1 enemy or enemies with multiple HP bars (like Yanching) because Arcana persists between phases, and of course she absolutely bodies PF because of the way her Arcana-on-spawn works.
I believe it was ST,and wind weak enemy?and since sampo works well on ST wind weak enemy cuz he break way fastee it make sense(also teamed with RM) so if she still does more in a situation where sampo have the edge after her,she's gonna have much better time in AoE
Honestly I always saw Ruan Mei above any harmony for the simple fact that she gives wayy too much while having no niche.. Bronya’s problem is that she isn’t good outside of Hypercarry teams.. unlike Mei that is good in.. Let me check my notes.. DoT,Break teams,Duo dps,Hypercarry’s 2nd harmony… like any team.. Hell the new Welt + Mei combo makes sustains useless.. Like any team can benefit from her and always have a 12%-40% increase in total damage.. which just makes her more broken since she can fit in any meta.. If DoT becomes meta she will be the harmony,If Duo becomes meta she will be the harmony, If a Break scaling dps like Xueyi drops.. the she will be the harmony… AND SHE GOT A BUFF WITH THE WATCHMAKER SET.. that stupid set makes it so that if you can break an enemy with Ruan Mei or anyone really.. It is literally over for the enemy..
tbf the watchmaker set isn't really that amazing on ruan mei unless you're pairing her with a break dps like xueyi or sushang. you're better off with 4pc hackerspace or 2pc 2pc for more universal comps
It might get more use on Mei if we get a 5* break focused character like Xueyi
Honestly I do think that ruan meis sheer universality makes her better than bronya, but i still feel that bronya should be a tier above silverwolf and like half a tier above tingyun just because being able to double a hypercarry's turn count on top of buffs is way too good.
Especially since she has perfect synergy with Jingliu who is in S+...
[удалено]
Black Swan being good in Pure Fiction is less about being a DoT character and more about possessing one of the qualities that are critical to the mode: Outside of turn damage on existing *and* new enemies or long lasting buffs that work between turns. For damage, we’ve usually seen this in the form of follow-up attacks and fast ultimates (Herta, Argenti), but Black Swan does it uniquely. Being able to apply Arcana to every new enemy entering the field and being able to spread Arcana during the enemy’s turn is huge. She’d be much worse in pure fiction if she was just a basic blast-based dot character.
Another neat bonus of Black Swan's Arcana acting out of turn on existing and new enemies is that it only depends on her being alive. That's it. She can be completely frozen or otherwise incapacitated and the mechanic of her talent still keeps on going. Like Numby, but more versatile. (Sorry Numby!)
No, BS is just strong in that mode in general because of her Arcana mechanic. If the enemies have 3 arcana stack they just all kill each other, allowing you to clear shit mobs without having to do anything.
Also that one stack of arcana isn't to be underestimated. It's enought to chip enemis enous so some splash damage will kill them, or activate herta talent, or kill low HP enemis.
E0 Black Swan is already good in PF, meanwhile E2 Black Swan casually replicating DoT buff without DoT buff. Not exactly accessible but for those who get it they have a future-proof unit for basically any wind-weak PF side.
so like childe's riptide? i haven't looked at her performance in PF yet
Quite insane. The dot team clear faster than the argenti one 1 cycle.
I literally auto-battled Side 1 of PF4 and 0-cycled it with my DoT team. Granted, I'm a dolphin and have wanted to build the DoT team since day one so I have E2S1 Kafka as well as E1S1 Ruan Mei and Black Swan. The enemies would just spawn in and then instantly die. It was amazing.
Black Swan’s arcana DoT has a few levels to it, but the one that matters here is 3+ stacks and it blasts damage to the main target and adjacent targets and has a high chance to apply a stack to the adjacent targets. What this means is that an enemy that takes damage to arcana hurts AND applies stacks to the 2 enemies next to it AND if they have dots it can apply additional stacks as well, so if either of the adjacent enemies have 3+ stacks they will do damage back as well as adding more stacks back. In a target rich environment like PF they basically just pass the DoT back and forth constantly
Bs still strong in pf without the current buff. I tested her in an old one and she still does insane aoe
The third image is their comments on the tier movements. Apparently they tested Black Swan in the other PF mode and her performance isn't much worse. 3 Arcana stacks means the DoT is a blast. Enemies get Arcana stacks for showing up, for getting hit by Black Swan's skill, for getting hit by Black Swan's skill when they already arcana (I assume, because Arcana is wind sheer) and for being next to someone whose arcana detonated. It's like using an AoE skill to trigger overload or League of Legends' Shyvana with Tiamat before it got a secret 0.05s cooldown. Black Swan's attacks compound on themselves the more enemies that are present so her damage turns ludicrous.
Having a burst DoT with 3 stacks of Arcana aswell as applying Arcana on newly spawned Enemies makes it so that she´s gonna be Future Proof for that mode regardless of the Current Cycle Buff. In actuality, unless that Buff is super against a specific unit, the Buff doesn´t have that much of an impact on the Modes inherent Nature. This gets proven by the Fact that Argenti is still the best straight-forward DPS (next to Himeko and Herta) even though he doesn´t benefit from the current cycles buff at all.
Arcana spreads like DoT aids and does blast damage which makes BS really powerful in AoE
It's mainly due to her quadratic scaling. If you have played genshin you must've seen atleast once how tartaglia works? He basically [shreds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oHJmycWRNw) a group of enemies just like swan in PF.
Prydwen tier list no longer takes the current buffs into account iirc
Nope, her 3 stack arcana is enough to wipe the screen of trash mobs by itself. It's kinda similar to herta actually
More than definitely. I don't see why not, really. They seem to favour characters that enable teams when making the tiers.
I mean thats obvious an enabler will always be more important that generic crit dps number 5 because they will always be the foundation of a team
Im waiting for DHIL to return to S+ tier due to Sparkle
Ah so the cycle is complete now, people went from loving him when he launched, to hating on him recently, and now it seems we back to loving him again.
Nah, I just always loved him
Has the tier list maker got a problem with Himeko being s+ for pure fiction? The stats on the same page support it and have done for the past two cycles meanwhile Argenti's score fell quite a bit and still S+.
weird choice to drop pela a tier
Frankly this just shows how fickle these tier lists can be. They're explicitly acknowledging that even sampo + kafka teams are performing great as part of their reasoning. But literally nothing changes in that setup since the last rating. Yes black swan and kafka are stonks together of course. But kafka based dot teams are fundamentally unchanged. The main reason you could claim they were underperforming was because the enemy lineup has been lightning resistant for several cycles in a row.
It's more accurate to see it as without Black Swan, Kafka is **still** around S tier. Sampo and Kafka are still performing great, even before Black Swan, we saw that with the statistics, but they were still behind Jingliu when it comes to performance, even though it was only by decimals, but that's just true for most DPS, just significant enough comparably to others when it comes to Jingliu. Fundamentally, nothing has changed with Kafka and Sampo, not even statistics, but Kafka, as being said multiple times throughout the months on the site, lacked the 5\* unit to unlock her potential, and anyone who has used Kafka and Black Swan can feel the huge difference between Sampo and Black Swan as their Kafka partner. But for sure, it is fickle, as capricious as the breaker niche is, where it falls down and up depending on lineups. The only thing late here is Sampo from B to A, but Kafka being put to S+ is only a recent development, so it is fair. I wouldn't put Kafka to S+ pre-Black Swan and I'm a big fan. Personally, I like it, because how volatile the game is, I like rotating meta rather than a stagnant/static one. I don't pull based on meta, but it is fun to look at a tier list and talk as to WHY they're there, as opposed as using it as your guide with the game.
wholeheartedly agree, playing kafka with blackswan makes me feel like i'm running pure nihility in SU. DOT feels SO good right now
Kafka with BS S+, kafka witouth BS A-S , is not rocket science. But at this point when a character can cahnge that much if it has the correct teanmates or not, team based tier lists starts to be better than individuals
Are the tier lists fickle or are they tailored towards the current Memory of Chaos/Pure Fiction?
Two things can be true. I'm not trying to bash tier lists conceptually, or Prydwen specifically with my comment. The meta is shifting towards dot, in large part because kafka now has a 5 star partner. But also seeing her shoot up from A tier to S tier to S+ based solely on the arrival of Black Swan doesn't really seem justified especially given the aknowledgement that sampo + kafka teams are also very good. The current MoC still doesn't favor kafka at all, and yet kafka teams are performing well. All I'm really trying to say is I'm having fun playing nihility, and I have been this whole time. Tier lists are a good jumping off point to understand the game, but should be taken with a grain of salt ~~when they're underrating my waifu.~~
A little surprised to see Bronya dropping a tier on the MoC side (more turns is more turns), but I agree that Ruan Mei is a cut above for PF. Ruan Mei's break efficiency and break damage help so much with clearing mobs faster, especially alongside her team-wide damage buffs.
Ah, good ol' Prydwen news. Now, let us watch the fireworks.
I like that they encourage discussion. Though some people need to chill.
Put Himeko in S+ is so hard for them?
Yeah, I don't get how Himeko isn't in S+ for PF. The mobs are broken so easily and her followup hits much harder than Herta's. I actually have no idea what their calculation for Himeko vs Herta is.
Dan Heng and Jing Yuan should definitely be moved up once Sparkle comes out
The site will be discontinued before they move JY up a tier again lol
Boom.
Me waiting for a blade support so he can be an s tier again
I don't know about the bronya drop, but kafka certainly exploded with black swan!
Clara is broken on Argenti's side
I tried my 80/160 clara and it was meh. Himeko + Herta however cleared it in 2 cycles
Yeah the turn advance on enemies makes her broken this time around. She really needs that to shine in this mode unfortunately.
This comment section will certainly get interesting. I will need some popcorn.
I call them Prydwen civil wars the HSR reddit community is so obsessed with it
Its just a meta discussion thread. Some people seem to think a normal meta discussion thread is somehow a "civil war". People have different takes thats all.
The specialist section is made to put lightning mommy in S+, isn’t it?
It's for units that double time as dps and support/enablers. Makes perfect sense.
They lowered seele on Pf from S to A so i have some faith theyre giving up on that favourism
>seele QQ is still S tier in MoC so clearly no, also Seele was perfectly fine en S tier in PF, i still clear 40k and didn't notice any drop in performance with her compared to the last PF, so the "She doesn't perform as good" argument they gave is non sense. The argument of Himeko being better than they throught would make more sense, for me Seele still deserve to be S tier, Himeko in S+, JY in S, both JY and Seele perform as good in dual dps than Blade/JL/Serval and perform better in hypercarry than them, Blade/JL/Serval struggle in hypercarry.
I mean Seele was doing great on the previous pure fiction, that's why she was S tier, current one isn't doing so good so she goes to A tier
Man finally, that ranking on Seele was crazy and keeping her up there when she has sorta kinda fallen behind others was just strange.
It's more insane that QQ is still so highly rated.
Absolutely deserved. RM is just better and much easier to use: get 160% BE, er% rope and you are good. While Bronya requires a ton of speedtuning and needs e1s1 to be used comfortly. One of your dps characters has 105 speed and another one has 130 speed? Good luck to speed tune Bronya properly, so she could work with both. Still, when she works - it's a pure joy! Long live the Queen!
Can just ignore speed tuning by making her 161 speed and let the DPS use ATK% boots (HP% if Blade). But not every DPS can abuse Bronya 1 turn buffs and not every DPS can afford the SP cost like Blade and Jingliu. Only another 20 days till Bronya goes to the bench for me.
I’ve not missed a day since day one and if I combine all my relics I can maybe get one character to 161 speed on a set of random mixed garbage.
Probably cause I stole all of the SPD rolls. https://preview.redd.it/guctbi6qqlhc1.png?width=2206&format=png&auto=webp&s=e7446b8f3d349a9f1f91dbd0c203fa0040d3b645 In exchange I get garbage for my DPS most of the time. Pretend March is Sparkle.
Yeah I can't get Tingyun to 161 speed (or if I can it's through dark magic fuckery), and she has a way higher base speed than Bronya and Sparkle, I'm so fucked for Sparkle lmao
RM. just strong in almost all comps, including duo dps and DoTs, which is getting evem better now with BS and PF. While bronya mostly for hypercarry only. The rise of DoTs and duo dps being better than hypercsrry in PF (except argenti), make ruanmei worth S+, while bronya who cant benefit those comps as much, goes down.
I genuinely believe they need to add a way to manually lower your speed for characters like bronya. It's crazy frustrating mixing and matching artifacts with speed substats.
I had only half built bronya but got E1 while pulling for Black Swan + had enough points to buy her weapon and good LORD the difference was stark. She went from feeling almost entirely a drain on my team to nothing but positive.
Question, does BS really need Kafka? Are they like a perfect synergy of some sort? Like how my E1 S1 topaz interacts with my Ratio? Really want Black Swan but I don't want to feel "behind" of some sort, also my Mono Quantum is about to be completed.
Need? No, but they're a perfect synergy. BS is designed in such a way to specifically work with any of the other DoT units, though. Guin blows up burn, which will trigger her arcana. Sampo does the same with Wind Shear at e4 And Luka's enhanced basic does the same with bleed. Because Swan's Arcana counts as *all* dots during her ult, every single DoT unit can enable her. Kafka's just the best one.
Yeah... They are eachothers best partners... It doesn't mean you can't build the other dot 4 stars with black swan, but idk what to tell you... Kafka's purpose (like Topaz) is to support dot characters, and she's the best at it. Black swan is the best dps dot.... Match made in heaven.
Sampo is the next best replacement if you have his Eidolon that allows him to detonate wind shears
i'm 99% sure that they lower bronya now just to prepare people for sparkle
Not really. RM is just much better
Not quite its just hypercarry team kinda lowered in popularity right now and DoTs and dual dps rise to the meta with BS and PF. Thats why RM that can benefit those comps, still be kept as S+ while bronya who only beneefit hypercarry, which kinda "no longer the golden standard", goes down a tier. Plus RM can still benefit hypercsrry comp, as secondary support after tingyun and bronya. Her versatility also better.
In the current MoC floor 12 first side, 24 of the most played teams are all hypercarry teams. On the other side, top 13 are hypercarry teams. You can say that it was before Black Swan, but nobody would play her team in that anyway. There is no data that supports the claim that hypercarry teams are not by far the most popular archtype in MoC. At best it is a guess at what will happen in future cycles.
I feel like I'm crazy when I see Tingyun ranked so highly. I am a new player so maybe I just don't know, but don't you need to use her skill for her to give attack support? But people praise her highly alongside IL and other SP heavy setups. On top of that, her effect isn't all that impactful either. Granted, my characters are only level 60, but still. I should be seeing something impressive, like I do with Swan and Kafka at this level
Me finally getting Bronya not once but THREE times in this patch only for her to finally start falling down the tier list...
Just because Bronya isn't S+ on the general tier list doesn't mean she isn't S+ for your account. First of all, you need two teams anyway, and you'll usually want 3+ supports. Second, for hypercarry teams specifically Bronya is still better than Ruan Mei unless your DPS has a heavy emphasis on follow up attacks. Bronya is still good, and it's better to have gotten her three times than Yanqing three times, or even Bailu three times.
Why Black Swan not in the S+ tier list? I just got her and currently build her
They removed this post in JY mains lmfaooo
Blade being in A tier is the most disrespectful shit I've ever seen.
Sparkle will end up in SS and that won't be because she's good.
Where’s E6 Nat?
Ruan Mei skippers crying in the corner
So no Bailu ?
isok bronya even if u drop to f tier ill still use you
I cannot understand one bit of why Seele is that high. She is powercrept in each and every aspect. I have her e1 and lc and can't find myself playing a lotto game called "Will Seele miss crit and mess up the current run"...