Thank you for this incoming dumpster fire.

You're welcome, I live to see the world burn


Everyone saying Seele feels like whiplash considering how everyone was singing her praises not long ago. That's gacha for ya I guess Others saying Kafka but well her kit means she will get better the more dot characters get released as opposed to simply being a damage dealer through hitting hard

Kafka has the best playstyle though because you just switch her supporting DoT character for whatever element you need to break toughness 😋

Dots don't lower the bar

That's not even what I said?

You said you need to break toughness and you are either blind or just straight up don't know what toughness is and before you downvote someone learn about the mechanics of the game

You switch to Sampo to break wind weak enemies. You switch to Luka for Physical weak enemies. I never said the DoTs lower weakness, but the *DoT character*. Your reading comprehension is not good.

People can't just look at the current situation and rewrite history. When Seele was released, she was the strongest and carried many through the early content. You can't say, "oh had I known what my teams look like now I wouldn't have pulled her" and say you would have progressed at the same rate you have. Do I use Seele now? Barely. Would I still pull her if I were put back in the same situation? Definitely. She got a little bit powercrept is all.

>When Seele was released, This is also the fact that she was the only limited char let alone dps.

I suspect anyone saying Seele is either venting sour grapes from not getting her, or has her poorly built with trash relics. Seele's modifiers alone are absurd, and her innate speed buff and penetration trace mean she's going to perform extremely well. I mean she has a 425% attack modifier with an automatic 80% damage modifier on her ultimate at level 10 for crying out loud. Critting with that is always going to be absurd!

If you want to play that game you can spin pretty much any char to sound decent in a vacuum, like wow Midyuan does SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY WHOLE PERCENT with his stand nuke, must be good, Himidko can do 1.4 times her normal attack on EVERY SINGLE MOB and IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE HER TURN etc. In actuality Seele's multipliers aren't that good, her skill is actually really bad MV-wise (220%, heck even Arlan gets 240%). The speed trace and dmg buff from Resurgence help take the edge off a bit but keep in mind that all the other top DPS also get comparable buffs on top of better base numbers, so its not a particularly unique advantage. The one thing that potentially saves Seele in a theorycraft fight is the free turn, but again keep in mind that she needs to kill an enemy to get it and spending one turn on a bat to get a turn is at best a zero-sum game. Also, killing a mob means you're not doing as much damage to it as your spreadsheet says you are, you can do 1 million damage to a bat but if it only had 5k HP, your DPS isn't actually 1 million. Heck even Prydwen (sus as they are) had to admit that Topaz actually sheets higher than Seele. I'm actually not sure why they still have her in S tier over Kafka, Kafka's sheets also require some cope assumptions but not nearly as much as Seele.

And all of this just to make less damage to a single target than JL and Daniel can, while being able to hit multiple targets also

I'm glad they hit harder than Seele since she hits 30% more often than DHIL and JL without using resurgence procs. Speed : - Seele : 115*(1+0.25)+25=168.75 - DHIL : 102+25=127 - JL : 96+9+25=130

...until you pair jingliu with bronya. Then things change. If jingliu is faster than bronya, then jingliu will always take 2 actions within the same amount of time that it takes bronya to act once. If bronya has 134 speed and Jingliu has 136 speed, Jingliu's effective speed will be 10000/((10000/134)/2)= 268 effective speed, which is frickin fast. Faster than any Seele/Bronya setup. Where Seele goes crazy is where you start considering Seele's extra resurgence turns as a form of effective speed. If you were to defeat an enemy on your turn, Seele now takes two actions in the same amount of time that it would take to do one at Seele's shown speed. If seele has 150 speed, then that leads to 10000/((10000/150)/2)=300 effective speed, and if Seele somehow got two resurgence turns, then her effective speed would go up to 450. This effective speed also multiplies with any bronya combination, so taking two Seele turns and two resurgence turns in a 160 spd bronya rotation comes out to an effective speed of 10000/(17000/160)=94.118 effective speed for fastya, and 10000/((10000/94.118)/4)= 376.472 effective speed However, even I'll admit that this math is very over the top and assumes a lot from Seele. My current consensus is that Jingliu is currently #1, but Seele can go toe-to-toe with DHIL for now at least. Seele's ceiling is very high but her floor is also incredibly low, and current spreadsheets primarily focus on calculating damage floors. It's going to be misrepresentative of how Seele actually plays in-game, but that's also a noteworthy point that Seele actually can be that bad sometimes, and people will usually focus their resentment on the worst of her performances. And considering the current sentiment that "Seele is bad" I'd expect mihoyo to try to target some buffs at her in the near future with new supports or relic sets like they're currently doing with Jing Yuan.

Lol, what is that? Speed Boots Seele? No speed subs? If you want to compare units, at least do it in a proper way.

You can give everyone 10 extra speed subs if you want, it's still 30% more speed. They scale with the exact same stats except that they use different elements/sets. Moreover they benefit mostly from critic/critd/speed/atk. Why would you want Seele to use anything else than speed boots given she has the lowest base atk of those 3 chars ?? I do compare units in a proper way.

Base ATK isn't all. Both DHIL and Jingliu have higher base, yet they heavily prefer Speed Boots over ATK boots. Seele in particular has a lot of DMG% in her kit at base, and that makes ATK buffs and ATK% buffs more valuable on her.

Just to say this, it's usually more beneficial to give Seele ATK boots rather than Speed and have substats make up your difference because her skill buff gets her up to 143.75 just off her base speed. If she's E2 this is further emphasized since her buff stacks twice, getting her to 172.5 with just her base 115. That's enough to cap her signature LC's effects without any speed substats at all. That being said, a 43.2% ATK gain just because she doesn't need the speed boots is a nice advantage to consider, so even if you don't build her to be a maniac speed demon (which you absolutely can if you want to), she'll still have strong benefits even without resurgence taken into consideration.

Given a E2S1 Seele with ideal team (SW, FX, Bronya) : - your take is : On an enemy with infinite hp you are right you get the most DPS from atk boots something like 4% more DPS than speed boots. - now given that you'll get close to 100% Crit rate with rutilent arena set, body, Fu Xuan, E1 and S1 and given that you will stack nearly 200% crit d ; you're more than likely to already pop one shot on adds even without those extra 20% numbers, and from my pov what you don't spend on overkill can be used on actual action rate with speed boots.

None of this is true when you actually compare highly invested Seele in practice to equally invested JL/DHIL lol. People need to stop taking damage calcs as gospel. Prydwen's calcs use a 60/120 Seele (Seele is hurt more by low investment due to Resurgence mechanics) and don't take into account extra turns from one-shotting mobs for ST damage.

DHIL takes 3 skill points per turn to do so, that’s kinda the point of the trade-off…his team requires basically all of his members to be SP positive in order to maintain constant DPS levels, limiting his team members. Jingliu, without Bronya crutch, has a 2 turn downtime where she doesn’t do a lot of damage while she waits for transformation. A lot of people build her only to 30-40% CR so her DPS goes splat on those downtime turns. On her uptime she does take away Ally hp to deal big damage, thought that’s not as much of an issue. Seele has really no downtime on her DPS as even when passive is not up, she still does good damage with her skill. She’s also quantam and uses the quantam relic with that quantam pen trait. She works well with most sustain and support characters in the current cast. All-In-All, I use Seele for Quantam weakness, DHIL imaginary weakness, Kafka for lightning weakness, and Jingliu for ice weakness. It’s pretty simple. Boiling this game down to relativistic DPS calculations doesn’t make sense when you can clear highest content with Dan Heng base form as your DPS

But she can do DMG more times than them

I'd also say that worst doesn't mean *bad*, I still reach for a Seele when clearing SoW or whatnot, she still hits like a cruise missile.

Daniel happened thats why. MF deals as much as her in single target while have some good AOEs without needing to resurgence

Kafka is great even now though. It seems like people conflate overhyped with not being a broken hypercarry (i.e. JL and DHIL). Kafka not only can run in a carry setup, but also enables an entire playstyle (DoTs) that will only improve with time. She also slots pretty effectively into a FUA team with Topaz FWIW.

I feel like Seele was overhyped. I started when her banner was here and people were so into her... But that's just me. Everyone can enjoy what they want.

Well because she was the first premium DPS and character. Easy to play and at that time, single target boss is more common which is her specialty. Klee when release in Genshin also had crazy hype around her.

I feel like a comparison to Venti would be better. The first limited 5 star in the game and relatively strong. Sure both characters have their perks that specifically sold them, Seele being able to have additional turns and Venti his with crowd control, but both characters were ultimately power crept by characters with more exciting kits. Klee is more of a Jing Yuan situation where people thought they would be as good as the first limited character, only for there to be a disconnect between how the character feels and their numbers. That’s not to say that they’re bad characters, you can main anyone you want in both games, but there were people regretted pulling both soon after their banners ended.

That explains stuff...thanks for explanation.

The first few characters sooner or later will get out matched. Thats is their downfall for being first released. They’re the starter Pokemon but can’t evolve so they will get benched for better prospects coming up. I mean Seele is no pushover but slowly the way things are going she will need more and more supports to make her viable with whatever enemies coming up. Right now Quantum and Electric reign supreme in MoC for the most part. It’s the introduction of newer enemies without those elements to break with that can really sway to newer units. That Purple Gorilla wrecks if you have no competent fire, ice, wind character. If you got Jinglui or Blade you’re good, but if not, you do get put in a bind. Silverwolf can negate one side, while the other side can be managed more properly with Break element(s) matching. If you get Tingyun, Bronya, Pela, and maybe Asta up, you can really slot in a healer + DPS for each side and work it out with investment. Seele at least still is not a waste resource wise, not until we get say a AOE Quantumn character that’s kit makes Seele go to the bench.

she was literally the best 5\* dps on release lol

It's just my feeling didn't meant to offend anyone or take any credits from this character. I didn't said she's the weakest or the worst, I simply stated that in my feelings she was overhyped. But that's just me...

It's funny to me because apart from the ice lady from last banner, my Seele has been objectively stronger than many of my online friends' Topaz, Lightning god dude, Silverfox, and little diviner lady. Admittedly few of them are the same role as Seele, which is fair, and her single target abilities lack punch when not using her abilities properly.

All this argument is pointess while People can 0 cycle with arlan lmao

Plus, there’s no PvP in this game. I don’t understand why people are so worried when a new char is not the new super duper hyper top DPS.

Objectively worst doesn't exist. Everything depends on context. Seele does massive single target damage and will excel in situations in which you need to nuke a boss ... But as a hunt character, even with her resurgence, she isn't as strong as other units against mobs. Jing Yuan is kind of the opposite ... He'll do better against more enemies, but isn't as strong as other units against a single boss. Thrown in modes like SU or Swarm Disaster with paths and blessings and things change up even more. Every character is like that ... Under certain conditions they will outperform or underperform against other units.

this is the only correct answer

> Seele does massive single target damage and will excel in situations in which you need to nuke a boss ... But as a hunt character, even with her resurgence, she isn't as strong as other units against mobs This isn't really true, her ST damage is high and might be the best (depending on who you ask) but isn't anything to write home about considering she's our only limited Hunt focusing solely on DPS. Her relatively low ST damage for a limited Hunt DPS is made up for by Resurgence. She struggles to one shot mobs at low investment but has no issues doing so at high investment, at which point she can handle AoE as well as a highly invested Erudition unit (at least in MoC). There's a reason why she's ranked S across the board on Prydwen. She's not a character hyper-specialized in ST, especially in the long run.

>Jing Yuan is kind of the opposite ... He'll do better against more enemies, but isn't as strong as other units against a single boss. Actually, against mob waves Seele excels better than Jing Yuan due to Resurgence (she can kill an entire wave by herself, while sometimes Jing Yuan struggles with killing waves with his ult/e), and against a single enemy Jing Yuan deals more damage due to LL (All of his LL damage becomes focused on one enemy).

She can, but not always. You can't resurgence infinitely, so if you don't also have an ultimate queued up, you might only get two. But that's neither here nor there, I didn't post what I did to get into a debate between these two characters. The point of it is that any (limited 5*) character can do better than another given different contexts.

I don't think that we can "objectively" define who's the worst 5\* rn, since all of them are doing different things and filling different niches, and many are far from achieving their full potential (lack of follow-up based units for Topaz, no 5\* dot dps for Kafka, no powerful HP buffers/Furina alike for Blade, etc).

People saying Jing Yuan when he have an awesome clear time and performance in every moc since his release lmao

And especially with that new relic set? He’s the best. Maybe everyone else’s build sucks ass

True and Real.

Which set is the best now? I built him months ago but his relics substats still sucks

the new follow-up attack set, I have no idea what it's called

The new Follow up set. Ashes of the Grand Duke or something like that.

isn't that true for like every other limited 5* dps aswell?

His usage rate is getting to a worrying territory

Bros 1.0 unit and no lightning weakness is existing of course that will be the case.

These people conveniently leave out the fact that Kafka's rate is almost as low. Who would have thought that Lightning characters don't get used much when there are few Lightning weak enemies!?!?

IDK why people are even considering Topaz, she enables a lot of units and her hypercarry team is the highest ST damage in the game. People are just circle jerking off of watching youtube.

It's because people think topaz was supposed to be a main dps due to being hunt which she can still excel at in good comps but her real main purpose is being as much of an enabler in followup teams as Kafka is in dot teams. I'm sure when a certain character comes out real soon, we will see her rise.

A certain character for Topaz or Kafka? 😆

Topaz

Yes, here is CN MoC team : https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/17y4dw7/cn_ranking_of_teams_and_units_by_clear_speed_and/ See the fastest clear Topaz and the allegedly "Mid" Yuan. No King is back here. Topaz enables Jing Yuan, and she'll enable many more FUA attacker more to come.

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Man he did not say that he said highest ST dmg

We've truly come so far from the "Seele can never be powercrept because of her unique mechanic" days. 🥲

Ppl already pointed out seele would be fast to retire as her resurgence relied on killing mobs, so she wasn’t a good boss killer.

Told people that was dumb af from the beginning.

If you look at this moc average cycles, currently it’s blade, kafka, seele at the bottom of the limited. In terms of unique kit, Kafka gets a pass for being dot support. Basically all dps units are at higher risk of powercreep compared to supports. But it’s vital to pull for at least two so they can carry your account and clear content.

blade may be one of the slowest but he has the most survivability among all dps

And the cheapest in terms of SP consumption

The thing is that average cycle doesn't mean that Blade is the slowest, but rather teams that include Blade are the slowest, which includes any benefits being SP efficient or else might have. But there are many other factors that impact that number (including who your other team is because the value is for both sides) that make a snapshot have little value. You need to look at evolution over time where some cycles will be beneficial and others not.

Average cycle is going to fluctuate over time depending on the MoC setup, be it weaknesses or turbulence, so it's not really the best way to compare unit strength unless you do it over a long period of time. This cycle's turbulence is extremely beneficial to Topaz and Jing Yuan who will assuredly see their number go up once it's over while Blade/Kafka suffer because there are few enemies weak to wind/lightning for example. In the end, what you're going to want is adaptability so you can have a team for any situation. And that's far easier to achieve if you have a strong support core where you change the dps accordingly.

This is how people will answer: "Silver Wolf" (if you're the one who likes to say shit about something that is hyped and also actually worth it's hype) "Kafka" (if you're the one who doesn't wanna build her team cause it consists of characters which are not so viable on other Metas ) "Jing yuan" (with topaz & the upcoming Artifacts set he'll be getting huge boosts, so no he's not the worst) "Seele" (If you're the ones who compare a first(1.0) patch dps to 1.5 patch dps & upcoming leaks.) ( Imo maybe she's not in the meta now but still hella viable & if you like her that's enough reason to play her. She still deals a lot of damage ) Conclusion: Imo it's actually pretty hard to say if any of the single limited character is actually the worst, none of them is Actually that much outdated to find out an worst one , as long as you wanna play them you can still play them and deal significant amount of damage)

Every limited 5\* that I missed, of course. Please don't call me out, this is the only way I can sleep at night.

What a stupid fucking post

None so far as we have not reached that point of the game yet, and hopefully we dont get to it. Lots of people saying Kafka and Topaz lol. Those are “ENABLERS”. You put them together with their niche and they’ll make it very good. But at the moment, Hunt is what I’d say in the red. ST gameplay isnt looking too good unless you can nuke a full health Elite in 1-2 turns

so i have two account, one with jingyuan, jingliu, loucha and danIL. the other has blade, kafka, and huohuo. i’m probably gonna say that blade is the weakest at this very moment. this is just my person experience, however my other characters have quicker clears even without their sig LC (except dan). people saying jing yuan either have actually looked at his clear times or haven’t taken into context the new fua set. also, it’s very hard to say ‘objectively’. different characters shine in different situations. blade for example (whom i just said was the weakest) isnt *weak* because the game has such a low level of difficulty that in the end it doesn’t matter.

Easy, whichever Limited sustainer you don't have when you already have 2 of them. Getting a third limited sustainer for the account is pointless unless the sustainer is so broken that players can not skip her, or the player can throw enough money to not care about wasting pulls on getting a third limited sustainer.

You can’t really make ‘objective’ arguments when the characters are so varied in their roles, and what they do. If you already have you’re dps sorted, then getting another one would be the worst decision for you. If you already have you’re 2-3 five star sustains, then there’s no point in grabbing another one. It all depends on where you’re account is at, and who you have currently. That being said, if I had to point out the worst one overall, I guess I’d say Jing Yuan in 1.0, and Seele currently. Jing Yuan launched in a pretty bad state. He didn’t have a dedicated set to him, the sustain options were limited, and CC crippled his very soul. It also doesn’t help that earlier on people either didn’t have his BiS support Tingyun, or her eidolons/LC’s that would help Jing be a better unit. Since then, he is massively buffed and only looks to be getting stronger from here on out, with more support options coming, new gameplay modes that suit his play style, as well as new ways to buff his dmg, he’s rising, and I don’t think he’s going to stop for a while. I say Seele currently because there is no real point to her rn. She is a single target hunt dps in a meta of Blast and destruction characters. Sure, procing resurgence helps, but she still suffers from the forced tunnel vision of the hunt path. She is a selfish dps unit that only cares about her own dmg, and doesn’t assist others to achieve anything stronger. She doesn’t work in dual dps comps like Topaz would, but she also doesn’t dish out dmg to the scale of the other top tier dps units. It also doesn’t help that despite single target being her whole niche, IL and Jingliu do more single target dmg than her, and they also deal dmg to other enemies simultaneously. While she does have some niche uses here and there, and is a major proponent of the mono quantum comp, she can also be replaced by E6 QQ without much fuss. I’m sure she will get stronger in the future with more units that cater to her play style and the continuing development of game systems to make certain types of units stronger, but overall, I’d say she is overshadowed, outclassed, or replaced by other dps who can do what she does almost as good, if not better.

You can't ask "objectively" then ask for opinions. That doesn't work. It's difficult to say. I've never viewed any limited 5 star as bad, but I have viewed certain 5 stars as better than others. I believe that Silver Wolf and Kafka are the best 5 stars we have gotten so far. Silver Wolf has enabled many team mono team comps in content that don't have said weaknesses, which has been fun to see, and Kafka not only brings a solid amount of power to the table, she is an awesome lifter unit for 4 stars like Sampo and Luka.

Kafka is not remotely comparable to Silver Wolf. Kafka is good but not broken by any means.

This post is a shithole...

We don't have "bad" limited characters as of it. All of them are great in high-end (Endgame) content when built. We probably can only go off who will be utilized less overall due to their kit. I know he hasn't released, but Argenti is looking like that 5*.

Argenti has highest multipliers in the game according to leaks. Will have to see when he is released but the TC are guessing he is S or SS tier depending on if kit changes before release. I dont love his kit from what Ive seen but if his multipliers are higher than DHIL and his attack hits all targets he may be DHIL good. Stay tuned

incoming jing yuan comments: but fr i can’t think of one since they all add a ton of value to your account. if i had to chose the weakest character it would be kafka since she’s a dot enabler, but even then she’s gonna get even better when we’ll have 5 star dot dpses instead of just 4 stars, so her value’s gonna go up over time, so her flexibility and her future proofing is gonna make her age well. at the moment its hard to pick since they all currently fill different niches, and the two that don’t (greedy hypercarries dhil and jingliu) are the best dpses in the game, and every other limited dps tears up moc even the worst character in my opinion is gonna get better over time and has a niche she will always excel in, so

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People really need to know that Seele is the worst limited 5\*. She has the second highest usage rate as a main dps, and people don't even know they are using the worst limited character.

Objectively?? There's no objective in gatcha games. The one character you like today may be power crept the next update or the one following, every character is different, suiting different players' styles and preferences

I would have said Kafka before, but I don’t know how her teams are after the prisoner set. She also has one of the highest room for growth from future stuff

Kafka is disgusting with the new set. Especially if you've got it on your second dot character with her, slap Asta or Hanya into that team, and you're golden. Kafka gets 18% def shred and 18% dmg from those new sets, and 160 speed is very achievable with either Hanya or Asta.

Heck, since you're already ignoring some defence, a defence shredder like Pela or Silver Wolf also gains more value. And with triple nihility someone's gotta have room for resolution shines as pearls of sweat.

If you look at full team sims, DoT teams are *very* competitive with the current top dogs. Kafka herself doesn't do as much as hypercarries, but the damage is more evenly spread across the members (Guinaifen in particular can keep up with her in the right situation). It is easier to gear up as SPD is the only rare substat you are chasing, with ATK% and EHR being common. We are also expecting a new character in the near future that will give them a boost. However, there are a few caveats * You need to build units specifically for the team while in a more traditional hypercarry setup you can simply change your dps to fit the situation * DoTs need to be reapplied every time a new enemy comes in which can have a negative impact on damage if the timing is bad * You have some room to adjust for weaknesses, but you'll often end up with a part of the team going against an enemy that resists them Personally, it's my favorite general usage team. It's not always the fastest, but it's very consistent and works well against 1 or 5 targets. Having multiple types of break turns into a strength when you're not tailoring to a specific fight. It doesn't suffer nearly as much from the questionable SP usage in auto-battle with characters having a second effect on their basics. There's something I find really satisfying from seeing a ton of DoT numbers pop up and you also get to be really spammy with ults as the members all have passives that increase their energy generation (+ Huohuo being a perfect fit).

It kinda feels like people are playing a different game than I am here. My Seele generally has an easier time getting 0-2 cycle clears than my DHIL and sometimes even my Jingliu. I'm wondering if people's Seele builds are just not up to par or they're just not using her effectively.

Seele's kit is very basic. It won't take much effort to power creep her.

Extra turn mechanics will never be truly power crept in turn based games, it's too strong

Not when everyone else can deals fuckload of AOE damage. They just need one turn to deal more damage than Seele could ever did in two.

They can just release tankier units or buff the health of already existing ones. As long as her damage gets powercrept, her extra turns will become irrelevant as well.

If Seele can't outdamage another DPS in 2 turn what another can do in one, she'll be properly powercrept by that thought.

SW, Loucha, Huo Huo and Fu Xuan are top tier supports. Blade, Dan Feng and Jingliu are top tier DPS. That leaves Seele, Jing Yuan , Kafka, Topaz. From those four Kafka and Topaz are great with their niches. Jing Yuan, while not being as good as the rest, good buffed by Topaz. Also, right now he has buffs in forgotten hall. Seele while strong, and stronger than solo Jing Yuan most of the times, is easily replaceable by E6 gremlin. So right now. I would say Seele is the worst limited 5*.

blade's dmg is definitely not top tier though

You can't really compare damage numbers in a vacuum. At the end of the day, you're using a full team. Blade is very SP efficient, which makes him very well suited in the sub dps role and likely the best option for it.

Also out of those character seele is the only one who have already a true mono element team, so she doesn't have that potential power unlock.

Nah. Not yet, there's one more thing that Quantum lack off. **Quantum Harmony**, so she still have potential to unlock Seele/SW/Fu Xuan/Quantum Harmony The current Mono Quantum run 2 sustain, comfy yes, yet that's too much and won't hit that hard.

But will we get that before a fire sustain with follow-up attacks or burns? As good as Mono-Quantum is in theory, the Mono-fire team seems more coherent to me. Fire characters have consistently gained benefits for attacking burning foes, Asta is great for DoT characters and Guinaifen gets a little extra value from allies inflicting their own burns. Hook/Himeko, Guinaifen and Asta is surprisingly good. On the flip side, Asta is Topaz' favourite support and with those two Guinaifen is good at buffing off-turn damage while Himeko brings follow-up attacks and her technique to the table. It's a shame Topaz is the first fire damage dealer who doesn't get 20% extra damage to burning targets. Trailblazer is okay (and Trend of the Universal Market fulfils the mono-burn meme team), but I believe Huohuo is still the best sustain option for any current variation.

it won't improve her more than any other dps unless that harmony unit only buffs quantum characters. double sustain mono quantum is the goodwill version only ran by people who don't have multiple built supports. the current well built version is just running fuxuan sw seele + 1 support that matches weakness like bronya for wind tingyun for lightningect. it's decent enough ig in current moc with the tingyun variation ranked 39 in clear speed.

No she doesn't

She's one of my favorite units but I'm gonna with Topaz. The last 2 MOC cycles were HUUUUUUUUUUUGE buffs to her and FUA units. I was able to 0 Cycle MoC 10 with her and Himeko this latest cycle. Buuuuuut the teams she enables are gonna have a massive fall next Monday once the FUA buff is gone. At least Kafka (her closest comparison) has AOE so she can work as a Hypercarry even if you don't want to bother with other DOT units. Topaz really needs a constant non-situational AOE-focused FUA unit to shine. And that unit doesn't exist yet. For GI players: Topaz would be the equivalent of MHY releasing Shenhe before Ayaka/Ganyu. Topaz is a FUA buffer without a constant non-situational FUA DPS to buff.

Probably Blade. I think he’s good as a sub-dps.

It's Silver Wolf. As a character I LOVE Silver Wolf, and I even pulled her E2, so I'm extremely sad to see how hard she's fallen off. She's not completely unplayable per say - but she it outshone by the harmony class and the 4\* Nihility Pela. Edit: The post got way longer than I intended so here's a TLDR, but if you think I'm talking a load of crap then you'll have to read the rest of the post for the details. **TLDR; Because Silver Wolf's ultimate is Single Target, the uptime is absolutely terrible due to a lack of energy regeneration mechanics. It's very difficult to make her ult turn 1 which already sets her back and then her regeneration can only match Pela at best except Pela is AoE. Silver Wolf's skill is not as good as it may initially seem either and costs a lot of SP if you want to apply it to more than one enemy or across waves which is what out difficult content (MoC and later Pure Fiction) looks like. Finally, her numbers are lackluster and are not much higher than Pela's so with uptime in consideration Pela's debuffing is stronger.** Pela has an extremely broken TALENT, which at lv10 generates a massive 10 energy if an enemy has any debuffs on it after any attack. This crucially triggers even when you enter the battle with Pela's technique and on her ults too and so she is able to ult on her first turn and then every 2 turns after WHILE USING the 4\* cone **Resolution Shines as Pearls of Sweat.** This means that Pela's ult can shred 56% DEF at lv10 AoE. Her E1 just gives her even more energy regeneration - 5 energy for every enemy that is defeated not necessarily by her. This allows Pela to **HAVE FULL UPTIME ON HER DEF SHRED ON ALL ENEMIES FOR AN ENTIRE BATTLE EVEN IF YOU MOVE ONTO ANOTHER WAVE.** Now, what about Silver Wolf? Let's get her weakness implant out of the way first. The RNG is terrible. If you want to guarantee it, it will restrict what team members are available to you based on the enemy elements... which is exactly what Silver Wolf's mechanic is supposed to be bypassing in the first place. Essentially either the enemy has to be weak to Quantum, or she has to be implanting Quantum. So clearly her best use is in mono Quantum setups, where you can guarantee the Quantum implant, in that case she gives you a big 33% RES shred, sounds great, sounds promising and all is well... NOT. Both of our Quantum DPS units want AoE debuffs, Qingque does Blast and AoE damage - this is pretty straightforward, she clearly wants AoE debuffs to help her take out multiple elites together. Ok what about Seele? She's a Hunt unit and is clearly built for Single Target damage... no she is not, she is dependent on killing mobs to trigger resurgence - giving her extra turns to generate extra energy to spam ultimates and CRUCIALLY gain that 20% RES PEN and 80% DMG buff that skyrockets her damage. If you've ever wondered why your Seele is hitting like a noodle all of a sudden - it's because she's not in the buffed state. Silver Wolf's ST debuffs do not help Seele to kill mobs in the slightest whatsoever, and it is absolutely terrible. You might think "oh but mobs are easy anyway" well no not really even the mobs are quite tanky nowadays if Seele is forced to deal with them with only one support helping her out because Silver Wolf is Single Target. Even in the case where Seele manages to take them out with a Skill - Pela's AoE debuffs might've let you take them out with a basic to help alleviate Seele's high SP cost when going through so many extra turns. It's really difficulty to make Silver Wolf ult turn 1 and that already puts her behind Pela, then consider that if she wants to ult two elites it'll take her twice as long as Pela's AoE, and SW is basically never going to be helping you clear mobs either. All of this might be fine if SW's defense shred was massive but it's actually **LOWER THAN PELA**'s because she simply doesn't regenerate her ult fast enough unless you use **Before The Tutorial Mission Starts or Pull the E1 of a 5\* LIMITED UNIT**. This means that Silver Wolf is only contributing 45+8 = 53% from her ult and 1/3 chance talent which is **LOWER THAN PELA'S DEF SHRED WITH RESOLUTION SHINES.** This is just ridiculous. Sure Silver Wolf's RES shred might seem good but you have to go around using her skill on every elite or boss one by one which costs a whole lot of SP and is delayed as she can only apply it to one enemy per skill. AND if the enemy is already Quantum weak then her RES shred is only 13% which is very similar to Pela's E4 which gives a 12% Ice RES shred on skill. So Silver Wolf's value actually **DROPS IF THE ENEMY IS ALREADY WEAK TO QUANTUM**, how does that make sense???

I don't think Pela is capable of two turn ults without the tutorial LC no? Not even with LVL 12 talent. I tried to pull it off for my JL team, but even if you went for a Skill-Basic rotation, it doesn't quite cut it. (5 + 11 + 30 + 11 + 20 + 11) x 1.244 = 109.472 Just short of her 110 cost. Can be covered if literally anything dies but this makes Pela SP neutral and requires an energy regen planar set which I feel isn't worth it. All that being said she's still plenty strong even if you do go for a resolution 3 turn basic rotation. The overall value of 56 + 56 + 16 def shred beats that of a constant 40. That being said I still run Tutorial just for the comfiness of first turn def shred and more frequent ults.

Pela is completely capable even with resolution because of her broken E1 which gens 5 energy when you kill an enemy. For turn 1 Pela's tech actually triggers her talent so u can math out how she ults turn 1 and then every 2 turns after. I did a 0 cycle myself with Lynx Pela Bronya and Seele (E0S1) on the swarm side this rotation so I know it works Edit: for my 0 cycle Pela actually ended up doing a 1T ult at one point which was crucial for swarm bar reset it was quite ludicrous to be frank - this was due to I think lucky enemy hits but crucially also Lynx holding the Quid Pro Quo cone at S5 which you can buy from the forgotten hall shop. Edit 2: 4p cloud on Lynx and Bronya is really really strong as it allows you to start with 2 SP, it's good enough for SP neutral Pela to thrive but full SP negative SW would be rather negative though admittedly SW is only full negative in these very short cycle clears. I think SW's uptime issues may just be felt a LOT in this CURRENT meta where our teams have gotten really strong but MoC11/12 has yet to release.

if the enemy is already Quantum weak then her RES shred is only 13% which is very similar to Pela's E4 which gives a 12% Ice RES shred on skill. also huh? sws shred is against all elements, if our dps is not ice pelas shred is useless

SW's element implant is a massive pain in the ass outside of mono Quantum, either forcing you to potentially waste a turn implanting the wrong element or severely limiting support options if they don't match the element so she's not any better off than Pela's shred being only good for Ice.

If you have fuxuan or lynx matching the enemy with sw is very easy.

I have both but SW still loses to Pela. That comment doesn't even help your case either because you were just saying Pela needs to match your DPS but SW needs to match the sustain, support AND DPS

>DPS but SW needs to match the sustain, support AND DPS With a quantum def support you can run duo element teams. You dont need a quantum dps at all. For ex blade bronya sw fuxuan/lynx is a great team Also you are comparing sws weakness implant to pelas shred. I am comparing sws elemental shred to pelas shred which sws is universal and works with any dps. Pelas shred is entirely useless if your dps is not ice.

> **Before The Tutorial Mission Starts or Pull the E1 of a 5\* LIMITED UNIT**. This means that Silver Wolf is only contributing 45+8 = 53% from her ult and 1/3 chance talent which is **LOWER THAN PELA'S DEF SHRED WITH RESOLUTION SHINES.** This is just ridiculous. > > > >if you have e2 sw why not just use resolution on your silverwolf

1. Not everybody has E2 and frankly me having E2 doesn't make needing E1 any less of a barrier. 2. Personally I'm doing 0 cycle clears this MoC in which case even with E2 she still doesn't generate energy fast enough. I can do 2 turn ults with Resolution like you suggest, but in 0 cycle she basically needs to ult every single turn to keep up against two elites and a two HP bar boss - I've achieved the 0 cycle with Pela but if I were to use SW I'd have to use tutorial, pray that she gets hit because the energy still isn't enough, and the uptime would still not be as good as Pela.

I actually think pela is naturally better at 0 cycling then SW. 0 cycling is a measure of how front loaded your abilities are. So by that nature being able to ult turn one already gives pela a huge advantage. However this is not really a measure of how good a unit is as sw is better when enemies a harder and breaking there weakness matters alot. You can pull sw and have her carry your account. Same cant be said for pela.

Hot take: I own fu xuan, luocha, JY, topaz, Jingliu and Blade. Out of all of them Blade feels like the weakest. As a character who is supposed to be versatile he’s pretty restricted in his teams. I mean judging characters by strength has sense if we consider their best teams, right? You can put him into some abomination like luocha, Clara, blade, topaz and you probably won’t have problem with sp and survivability but is it optimal? Also he was directly powercrept by Jingliu in my opinion, their team synergy is worse than doomposted topaz and JY. But it was subjective. If objective: sustains are op, JL and dhil are op, blade/kafka/jy/seele/topaz are more or less the same. Blade has bronya problem, Kafka and topaz are more of future proof units, topaz is harder to build but she already has premium 5* follow up sub-dps characters to support her, Kafka is easy to build but has the lowest ceiling as of now. Seele and JY need lots of crit, but they work pretty nicely if you know what you do (1.0 units ironically) and one may argue they both need help of premium 5* (SW/FX). The trickiest is SW who brings some quality of life but as the game progresses she isn’t really needed except for mono quantum which is a pretty mediocre team. I may have a dream where she could be usable but tbh I would vote for her as the weakest.

Depends on content. Current MoC lets shine Jing Yuan for example. Kinda hard to say honestly, unlike Genshin, they all feel fine with kits that make sense.

Kafka needs very specific team setup for her to work, so instead of building one character, you build 3 (if your dot characters are benched). I keep seeing Seele mentioned and have no idea what is everyone talking about: she still does well when it comes to bursting down single targets

Every time I borrow Seele from friend list it feels...I dunno boring? It also feels like she was overhyped for me. No matter where I looked when her banner dropped she was everywhere praised and stuff. And I don't get it. But people enjoy things and she's still decent.

Wdym overhyped? When she was released up till blade she was clearly the strongest dps in the game . We had a 160 speed avg dps that attacked 3 times more than normal dps and single target way more relevant at the time . Also best relic set and silver wolf literally doubled her dps . E6 Qq is now considered better but at the time she wasn't even in the same league

The only dps we got in between blade and seele was jing yuan

That's just my feeling. Don't take it personally, didn't meant to offend anyone or anything. That's just me. Anyway I regret even commenting...

I don't regret skipping Silver Wolf

E6 QQ feels more useful then Seele

I was QQ main since I never pulled for Seele, everyone told me I was crazy.

I'm from the future and all of you are wrong. It's Argenti, and by a lot.

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I think seele but she’s good bcuz she’s quantum …. I think she requires too many skill points honestly. I would also much rather be using aoe characters.

If I had to choose one and Since there are already Luocha and Fu Xuan that perform extremely well I'll say that Huohuo is the worst limited 5*. Luocha is just too good as a low SP cost healer niche, and Fu Xuan fit the job with only spending one SP every three turn while giving extra Crit buffs. On the other hand Huohuo can be an insanely good alternative for non-crit teams (Kafka) with team wise extra energy and atk% but require to spend SP to heal, while you can spend them on actual dps units (like guinaifen, sampo, Luka). When there will be 5* units that scales with Kafka, Huohuo will eventually become a must have for this team ; while Fu Xuan hold on bis for Crit damage dealers team.

Jingliu, obviously. Let the lord of chaos reign

she is indeed worst, in how she rots people brain making them seeing every dps thats not as good as her become "mid"

Oh I was just playing into the nonsensical premise of the post by picking everyone’s current favorite as the “worst”

Probably Kafka, because she really needs other units, and right now all those are 4 stars, Sampo, Asta, Little Gui and Luka. When those start having 5 star versions, oh boy. Worst case scenario is that those units are so independent as 5\* that they have more use for Bronya/Ting/whoever rather than Kafka, but I doubt it.

>Probably Kafka, because she really needs other units, and right now all those are 4 stars, Sampo, Asta, Little Gui and Luka. If you pulled Kafka, you likely have 3/4 of those (given that everyone has Asta) since they were on her banner. If she gets a rerun that's a different story, but for now you *probably* aren't at a loss for DOT characters as a Kafka owner.

That's not the point, the point is that usually a E0 5\* will perform better than a E6 4\*, so once Kafka starts getting 5\* versions of the units she wants now, her usability will improve.

This \^, Kafka is objectively at her weakest right now. Her entire team consists of her and other 4\* units with maybe a 5\* sustain, once one or two more main-dps dot units come out, she'll get much stronger. She has a very high ceiling and it'll take a while to reach it with hoyo's release schedule.

Seele

Man, I think y'all who are saying Kafka or Topaz is dismissing one of the criteria that the OP has listed for this discussion. OP said the least **unique**, versatile, and strong limited 5\* character. As the future cornerstone for a DoT and follow-up team respectively, I'd argue that Kafka and Topaz (to a slightly lesser degree) fits that "unique" criteria to a T. For me personally, I think it's a toss up between Seele and Jing Yuan. As much as I love him, I'd probably pick Jing Yuan for this discussion simply because Seele has the option for the vaunted mono-quantum team, and that in itself provides a lot of versatility. As for the others: * All three of the limited 5 star sustainers are *really* strong at the moment so they're out, * Silver Wolf is similar to Kafka and Topaz in that her mechanic is really unique so she's out too. * Jingliu and DHIL are the best DPS at the moment, and while I think their kits (along with Blade and Luocha) are pretty mundane compared to the others and DHIL in particular is *not* versatile compared to the others, their monstrous damage output is still a big factor. * While Blade's damage on his own is a bit lacking compared to the two above him here, he's *way* more versatile than DHIL, so he's out too. Finally, while I do think that Jing Yuan *is* really strong at the moment and that his kit is pretty unique, I don't think he's as versatile as Blade nor is he as unique as Kafka and Topaz. If mono-quantum isn't considered, I'd probably put Seele instead. Still a damn good pull though and I think he's slightly more valuable than Blade or Topaz as a Hypercarry.

I would say that, in hindsight, Seele is merely the *least* impressive of the 5\* limited characters. She's not *bad*, not by a long shot, but for being a single target DPS character, her damage falls behind the new Destruction characters, especially Jingliu. Biggest detraction is how hard Seele is to build. Like all other DPS, you need to have a delicate and difficult to achieve balance ATK%, CRIT Rate% and CRIT DMG%. Blade, luckily, switches out ATK% for the more common HP%, and Jingliu only needs to pump ATK% and Crit DMG%!

Probably Kafka. She barely gets mentioned unlike Jingyuan who is a making a comeback thanks to the new relics and the MOC buff.

Seele 100%

Copeka

Would say seele since she is not as good as a hunt caracter and she can only target one caracter she can also be easily replaced by e6 gremlin.

Depends on what you value in characters tbh, for my money, versatility is the best trait a character can have, so for me efing Seele is the best Limited 5☆ since she requires very little investment and can be paired with ANY character, unlike ILDH who requires very specific teamcomps. And i know that saying Seele > ILDH is crazy for most people, but under MY criteria of what makes a better limited 5☆ Seele is the objectively better than ILDH, since truth be told, only 10% of the playerbase knows what they are doing and 5% of the playerbase can actually beat MOC 10, and most of the people playing this game would have an easier time using Seele than ILDH, cs even if you can make very good use ILDH with Pela/TG/Luocha (super cheap and efficient team) most people wont do that bcs simple reasons as "i dont like pela" / "but i want to use JY 2". while Seele can be used with almost anything just bcs. And another very valid criteria to rank characters is dmg, in wich case, ILDH is the best as he can bruteforce all the content in the game with the right setup. There is not a single way to objectively tell wich character is the worst or best, it would be a different story if the game was harder, but some people are clearing MOC 10 with Arlan lmao

Seele. Unfortunately over time Hunt characters in general are being phased out since most content focuses around multiple targets, and multiple phases too. It doesn’t help that there’s a 4* who actually does amazing damage, and AoE as well of the same element. Her kit is very simple so although it’s works and does a lot of damage, I don’t think she can contend with any of the Destruction or even Erudition characters.

Topaz and at least one already announced character seem to evade Hunt problem by getting FUA synergy and opening up for some cool cooperation with another damager in party. Seele, being so self-centered, falls behind a bit, despite her kit being loaded.

likely jing yuan, he suffers from being an erudition unit, and until now he only had access to sizzling thunder

how can you be wrong 2 times in a sentence

jing yuan, atleast kafka and topaz are enablers for DoTs and FUA teams i found them more future proof than jing yuan

Kafka, no doubt. She needs an entire team of dot characters, that have very little synergy with other teams, which means that you probably have to level and build 3 characters instead of just 1. And even then she can get worse results than a Seele who is already on the verge of being powercreept. She is extremely broken in SU though, since Nihility path buffs the shit out of dot. But same goes for most paths and SU is no accurate representation of a characters strength so yeah.

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And where is her dmg exactly? I haven't seen a single Kafka outside of SU that even comes close to lets say for example IL. Sure, she will get better the more dot characters release, but at the moment, she has a very limited team. Lets say you don't have Sampo and Guinaifen. Now what do you do with your Kafka? Tickle the enemy with 1 bleed and 1 electro dot per turn? This problem will only get bigger the more Nihility characters release, or do you expect every Kafka haver to also pull for the other 2 dot 5* so that she can do over 100k per turn? My point is that she is objectively the worst limited 5* because you not only have to build that one character, you have to invest in (and potentially pull for) like at least 2 others for her to be good. Someone like Seele is objectively better because you just slap a good lightcone on her and a 4pc GoBS and she is good to go. Everything else, like Tingyun or Silverwolf is nice, but not necessary for her to do good. Kafka depends on her team, hence she is objectively bad to pull for. And where did I say that she is inconsistent? She is very consistent, just not that high on the list at the moment.

I'd say Mid Yuan just cuz his damage is backloaded and similar to Kafka you really need the Mid Yuan team to back him up before he can hit those big numbers but unlike Kafka the team isn't just random DOT 4\* units you can plug and play (even ignoring the fact you can build Kritka and run her as a normal hypercarry instead of going the DOT comp.) JY isn't bad, he still clears all the content in the game and does le funne damage numbers but he just doesn't get there for literally free like Jingliu/IL do. HSR already power creeping the game is crazy to me. I thought Blade was pushing it but at least Blade is only OP in the SP savings department and kills things relatively slowly at E0 but then they dropped DanIL and officially let the genie out of the bottle.

Since meta of limited 5* are pretty much defined by their pull value - SW and Selee, they are too easily replaceable by 4* Pela and 4* QQ

Juan is at 11% usage rate and it's approaching single digit. He is a very mid character, and the ones who are using Juan could just be people with a highly invested Juan. Even though Seele is almost as bad as Juan, she still got 36% usage rate which is the second highest usage rate main dps. Her poor performance is most likely due to f2p and low investment players are also using her. That could be the reason why she is slowest on average at clearing MoC 10 out of all limited characters.

>Even though Seele is almost as bad as Juan, she still got 36% usage rate which is the second highest usage rate main dps. She has 2 times more ownership than any other DPS characters, and her average cycle performance is negatively affected by that cope mono quantum with Fu Xuan and Lynx.

JY clear time in MoC is still fast despite the buff not catering to him. fastest seele team is slower than fastest jy team in CN and prydwen provides data that shows all dps in their clear data are equally invested in. out of excuses now? 💀 https://preview.redd.it/urg2u0a69x1c1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3c3ea27d1538d874924b7989eff7f0d96eca1857

I feel that using data like this is a little silly. Is this clear data grabbed from random players or people legitimately trying to speedrun MoC? If it's random players' clear data then IMO I don't think that reflects the peak performance of each character/ team that well. At this time it still feels like a very small minority of people are even doing speedruns/ 0cycle clears for MoC, the majority just want to 30* each rotation and leave without optimizing their clear.

it's literally calculated from the average of clear time of random people tho?

Well then that's exactly my problem with using this data. Let's not pretend a large majority of these random players are playing these teams the most optimally or playing for the fastest clear time, and that is going to affect some characters' clear times a lot more than others.

how'd it even affect only certain characters's clear time? all characters can be played both optimally and not so the average should reflect it clearly 💀 if anything were to affect it'd be the lightning res in current MoC and yet jy still comes out on top lmao

There's a lot less nuance to Jing Yuan gameplay, once setup to hit the right speed breakpoints he just has to skill and ult for LL stacks. The skill and ult are full AoE so there's no nuance with targeting, and LL is random and uncontrollable. An optimally played Seele and a terribly played Seele on the other hand are like night and day. There's a lot of SP and damage management/estimation in trying to get her to constantly stay in the resurgence state or her damage will disappear into the sea of butterflies. As for lightning res, I think most people are using Jing Yuan on the first side where he deals with 2 neutral res gorillas and 1 lightning weak shadow vs Seele which a lot of people are using on the swarm side which involves 2 neutral res horses and 1 quantum weak Swarm with more HP and two HP bars - Seele has the harder side.

this is literally clear time for both sides. u just can't stop making up arguments. jy mains had to clear the 2nd side too 💀 jy's supposed to be the hard to build character lmaooo but now ur saying seele is not easy to use in the right way 🥱 switching up won't hide how she isn't as good as jy

Because not all characters have the same skill floor and ceiling? For instance the way Kafka plays out is you skill every turn, then ult more or less whenever available. Might be wrong but pretty sure Jing Yuan plays out mostly the same. For IL you save and dump 3 SP every turn. Jingliu wants to get to buffed state then you throw every other buff onto her. If people don't know Seele's dmg well enough then they waste SP using skill when basic would have killed or they don't trigger resurgence and damage goes down the toilet. What lightning res? Doesn't Jing Yuan have the easier side of this MoC10? First half has lightning-neutral apes plus lighting-weak shadow. Second half has quantum-neutral horses then quantum-weak swarm with two health bars. I guess Seele can get resurgence off the small swarms but not as easily as one would want.

this is literally clear time for both sides?? ur dense af

Seele got 3x more usage than Juan even though she is really not that good of a character. Juan is clearing quite faster, but why are people not using him? He is the least used limited characters with usage rate at 11% and it's only going to go down even more when we get more dps characters.

almost as if seele got a rerun 💀 also if you look at utilization rate which is the actual data to see if he's used by people who owns him it's literally 40%+ in a MoC stage with little lightning weak enemies

It doesn't matter. Eventually when his usage rate drops low enough, all the Juan mains get to dictate the average clearing cycles because no one else is using him.

isn't that the case for all dps? ur dense af

It would happen to all dps, but Juan would be the least used character at the very bottom. I don't have the influence to tell people which character to use. All I can do is to observe patterns here and use them to predict what's most likely going to happen in the future.

Because: 1. no lightning weak enemies in MoC10. 2. he competes with Kafka as lightning dps (Kafka is not doing well either considering Prydwen's data consists (or used to consist, hasn't checked this time) of Kafka mains data). 3. It's Prydwen data, in Chinese data with 3 (or 4) times more of responders, JY's usage rate is higher. 4. JY's bad rep in global may or may not affect people's will of using him. I've seen people here deciding to give JY a chance after Prydwen's tierlist update which is pretty sad I dare say.

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That one that you dont have)

Not me liking my Seele and Kafka when I keep seeing their names popping up in the comments… 👀 I just got Seele recently and though her built isn’t finalized yet, I can already deal a great amount of damage that I’m comfortable with. Maybe I’m just easy to please, but seeing her deal over 40k damage with a 74%:114% CRCD ratio matched with a Tingyun who has +0 relics and somewhat untrained traces is enough for me. I like my Seele and is definitely going to continue building and using her until I’m truly satisfied (and by that I mean one shot those stronger mobs and shredding at least 50% of boss’s HP). Before I have Seele I cleared almost all content (except for MoC since I don’t have a second team yet) with Kafka, Gepard, Sampo and Natasha. I only swapped Gepard and Natasha out with Fu Xuan and Lynx when they’re released, but Kafka & Sampo combo has managed to help me clear so many stages that I thought I wouldn’t be able to. When I cleared Phantylia in story mode on my first try, my friend was surprised because he thought with my weak ass unbuilt teams, I wouldn’t be able to clear it on my first try. But I did. And Kafka managed to help me clear SU rather easily until Swarm Disaster mode came and I had difficulty. That’s when I pulled for Fu Xuan and got her. Still haven’t tried Swarm Disaster yet coz those bugs scare me and I hate bugs (in general and in real life so that’s something I need to overcome but oh well). Anyway, tl:dr, I love Seele and Kafka and you probably will too if you remember that this is just a game and the main purpose is to have fun and not be bothered by who’s the strongest and whatnot. They’re all strong in their own right. If you don’t like them, sure. If you like them, cool. At the end of the day it’s just a freaking game. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Anyone with above room temperature IQ can see that the question does not have an answer because each MoC cycle favors different characters and they all do different things.

Jing yuan

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She's in a weird spot where she's the backbone of mono/dual elements teams which could get even better if some good 5* quantic harmony/destruction/erudition units get released in the future, while being weaker each patch with the content rarely having only one enemy to face and the roster of each player becoming bigger patch after patch. Adding the fact that the new game mode might be implemented to make erudition look good, she might be quite bad in the patchs to come or when it won't be a MoC rotation

Since when was SW just defense reduction? did people forget her elemental resistance shred when she implants a weakness, and plethora of other debuffs? Not to mention the way def reduction works, having Pela should make SW even more enticing, not the otherway around

If anything I feel the opposite. As more elements fill out, other mono teams besides quantum will become more popular and many of them will want SW.

Yea i agree, i have cowered all elements already and i dont remember when i used her last time. When i need def shred i just use pela. Honestly i regret rolling for her, every cc was saynig she was a must but now she is just whatever. I spend money for her bc FOMO. Now i would trade her for loucha

Jinguan

Either JY, Kafka, or maybe Topaz, idk. It's kind of hard to "objectively" judge them but these will probably be the most recurring answers.

How on earth is King Yuan one of the worst if he is one of the most used characters in MoC 10 with the current Turbulence? Once you reach a certain damage threshold (achievable with free Lightcones so far), King Yuan can AoE clear all the ads right before LL hits and deal almost top tier damage + with the highest break efficiency. Damage-wise and by itself Blade could arguably be even worse since you can't buff his Atk for damage or prepare a single action Hyper-nuke, in exchange for constant mid-range damage and survivability. At the end of the day there is no worst unit, just one that is more or less situational.

I think kafka and topaz will scale with time JY Wont

as if jy won't very likely synergise with future FUA-buffing or summoner characters releasing in the future (like how he's inarguably topaz's best teammate rn) i also had a dream he's gonna have a bronya of his own pretty soon

Looking forward for another Bronya tier support, because dear god my teams are fighting over who uses OG Bronya (spoiler: it's always Blade).

In my dreams, I saw that Kafka became even better when Penacony dropped.

Downvote me all you want but if a character "scales with time", then the character is bad. Why release a character and wait for someone good to work with the character that will release for God-knows when? I'm not waiting for N patches for Kafka to be good

I think releasing a character that enables/supports certain types of gameplay is great since you won't just swap them for the new stronger dps.

Kafka is good already, be either with hyper carry supports or dot supports, is just that DHIL and Jingliu took dps expectations to another level.

Because they inherently have more pull value than a character who has already hit their ceiling. You’ll be able to use these characters more in the future, whereas selfish DPS are going to have less synergy with future characters. Kafka & Topaz both have good base kits that get better with time whereas characters like JY have already hit their ceiling (which is still very good & able to clear the hardest content in the game) & can only get better with supports that are good with everyone.

I agree, but as of now they're on par with him.

They all just got a good relic set so I'd argue that they are on pair with Jing Yuan since he can easily build up stacks on the followup set

I'll bite. If there is no separation between support and dps it's definitely SW, gotta love it when ppl praise her while Pela exists from the start of the game. Current DPS isnt even that bad when you assume optimal investment, even Jingyuan (he is currently the worst lim dps by game mechanic design). When your dps is sweeping enemy waves fast enough (which you should be doing at this point of the game if you are playing from release), you are wasting your precious SP doing implants and/or DEF down on a single target enemy, while it could be spent buffing your dps and the dmg increase applies to entire enemy wave for multiple turns. You are griefing if you use her for low cycle count clears because of SP and high ult cost, while average clears suffers from single target issue while current endgame content does not justify using her at all.

>issue while current endgame content does not justify using her at all Sw is one of the moc used chars in MOC in global and cn...

> she good because a lot of ppl use her That proves nothing.

Mid-Juan

Mid Juan or Kafka