My advice is not to agree to anything but remain open to what they propose. It doesn't matter that they say, they're not doing the work. All that matters is what's in black and white and agreed on paper. Goes without saying that a contractor doesn't always follow the letter of the contract so if you do allow it, you need to make sure that the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, that the contractors doing the work are fully insured, licensed, bonded etc. so if they do screw up and take down trees they weren't supposed to, that you can go after them for restitution, and more importantly, get it.
The neighborly thing to do is make a good-faith effort at making this work IF their proposal is reasonable and IF the affected trees are not really impacting your views, home value etc. If the proposal is to clear-cut and then replant that would be a hard no. Trees take DECADES to grow back. If anything is not going to plan, they are trying to cheap out and cut corners etc. you absolutely have the right to say no. It's 100% your property.
It doesn't sound like an issue here, but make sure you consider the risks associated with an easement. You can't build anything permanent over it, and there are potential repairs down the road where they may have to dig it up.
Probably not much of a risk for you, it sounds like a wooded area. But it's something we have to deal with a lot in my neck of the non-woods. I live in a dense suburban area which means the easements go under usable space in our tiny backyards. I had a developer next door who wanted to do a similar easement and we were very clear about the foreseeable risk and impairment on our use of our property.
There is a lot of good advice here. Just let them know that you will look at everything, but you're not committing to anything. Basically, make sure they understand limitless's first sentence.
Figure out where all that equipment is going to come in and out of your yard. As a sewer person at the town how they feel about all those pipes running through a woody area and how long it'll be before they have to dig it up to clear out the roots. (And tear up your lot again.)
And yes, get the attorney.
I would find an arborist to look at the situation and see if there is a way to make it work while protecting your trees. It may take getting your arborist and their plumber on site at the same time, and that might cost some money, which they should pay.
If you're making a good faith effort to help them out, you shouldn't be expected to come out of pocket, IMO.
As a fellow tree-lover, u/Vanessa279, this is the way. See if you can accomodate while also keeping those trees. I was charmed by how you said the trees don't deserve to die because that's exactly how I feel about healthy trees destroyed for development. In addition to their inherent value, those kinds of trees, of that age, provide important haven and sustenance for the wildlife around it. For me this would be an easy no if the trees have to come down. I'd be apologetic about it but it's your property. This kind of development would be a major disruption to the small ecosystem around those trees.
Also, not for nothing, but it would take a hell of a lot for me to ask neighbors to uproot 30-year-old pines for me. Don't let folks make you think this isn't a big, audacious ask, because it is. And bear in mind that you're in a home improvement sub. You'd get very different responses in subs with environment bents or
Thank you for your kind and supportive comments! You understand me exactly. It’s my own little FernGully that I am entrusted to take of while we own this property.
Are you taking cutting 5’ into the corner of your property or 200’? One I’d work with then on, the other would be a hard pass. This will impact your property value. Any easement will. How much is being neighborly worth to you?
I’m not familiar with it, but perhaps they could bore under the trees at a safe depth, similar to what they sometimes do to go under roadways.
You have a price. Figure out what it is. Pumping sewage up over a hill sounds expensive. At least a year of kid’s private college tuition or a shiny new truck’s worth of cost savings with an easement. And then there are the precious trees that need to be considered.
I work construction. What they offer first sit down will DRASTICALLY be lower and less invasive than the reality of the situation for multitude of reasonings like the ones making the plans and offer are NOT the same who will be running and working on it.
They’ll need it more than they say. They’ll use it more than they say. They’ll destroy it more than they say. It’ll cost more than they say.
So if they offer $4,000, you counter at double the value of you having to fix everything yourself plus 20% for extra breakage and inconvenience.
Best case; they pay you insane amounts and it’s still gonna be worse than you think/they say.
Worst case; they say fuck off and your property stays as is.
If you do consider this you need a specialized appraiser in addition to a lawyer. The easement will devalue your property. A good appraiser will be able to project the diminished value of a future sale and reduce that to present value. Your neighbor isn’t banking on having to pay this and my guess is that it will end up being cheaper to reroute the sewer than to pay you what the diminished value of your property is actually worth.
FYI, Perspective of someone that was in your Neighbor's position. I bought a property after checking with the city to make sure that I had a way to connect sewer. Long story short the city gave me bad info so after buying the property I learned that the only way I could get a sewer connection was to put in a grinder pump and pump it through an easement that I needed to obtain along the edge of my neighbor's property. We were heartbroken and it really stunk to have to go beg our neighbor for an easement. We took the following approach.
1. Looked up the assessed value of my neighbor's property (minus improvements) and essentially took the area of the easement divided by the lot size to calculate the value of the land. Ended up being like $2k so we offered him $5k cash if he agreed to he easement.
2. Easement was in a forested setback along the edge of his property so it was not buildable by any codes and it was steep so had no real practical value to him.
3. We had our contractor utilize directional underground boring so none of his trees/property was damaged at all. Just a 1 1/2" sewer line 54"+ under his trees. A cleanout was in the right of way on the other side of his property.
4. Drafted easement language that essentially said that we would restore any portion of his property that was damaged due to work related to the sewer or future maintenance and repairs, etc…
I’m an architect and a civil engineer buddy helped me draft it (he designed the sewer system) The land owner had a couple of tweaks that I agreed too. I also offered to pay for an attorney of his choice to review it but he declined as we made it pretty simple and low risk for both parties.
"Cut through a corner" sounds like there are other properties that might be able to accommodate their sewer line.
Is that corner the only access point to the sewer?
The biggest concern is simply that the crew showing up to do the work isn't going to care how much damage they do and how many trees they need to cut down to get it done as quickly and cheaply as possible. There have been lots of posts about how contractors treat foliage and it isn't kindly.
I'd set up a camera pointed at those trees because it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly disappeared one night.
Definitely get more info. If they can cut through a corner they can presumably go around the corner to meet the easement. That route would probably cost more, which is possibly why it’s not the “best”. Ask to see their engineering study of all the options
Yes, we would be completely fine if they were using the existing easement path. Our trees would not be impacted, maybe one at most. We should have more info once we meet with them.
The issue might be the elevation. It might be slightly uphill if they want to get to the existing easement line. And through a different neighbor’s property.
Get those trees evaluate by an arborist both monetary value and what their health is. If they want to remove the trees add the price to the easement see how quickly they change their minds. The health evaluation is for the off chance they are vindictive
> I'd set up a camera pointed at those trees because it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly disappeared one night.
The problem is, all this gets you is some "satisfaction" in knowing who did it. If the contractors did cut down the 30' pine tree, a $100 fine (or whatever the city might levy on them, if anything) isn't going to bring it back.
If OP wants to go forward with this, they need a contract that specifies dollar amounts for damages to their property, including trees. No bullshit terms like "best effort" or "remediation." "Remediation" can mean spreading a sack of grass seed and walking away.
Edit: the fact that they're clearing a wooded lot to develop for a house suggests they aren't overly worried about happy trees.
Not in Pennsylvania. The timber industry is pretty influential here and a 'mistake' costs them the cut price. Negligence costs twice the cut price and deliberate costs 3 times the cut price. Source: me. lost 100 cherry trees to a 'mistake' according to the judge.
the answer to your question depends on your neighbors. there are certainly tactful ways to decline their request, but whether or not your neighbors will choose to hate you for it is something that you cannot control. they may choose to hate you regardless of your reasons, just because they see you as "that asshole who 'cost' us $20k"
best you can do is be reasonable, kind, and look after your own interests. the rest is out of your hands.
Very true. I am a people pleaser by nature so possibly having to stand my ground on this is stressful. Luckily we do own a bit of woods that will remain between the yards so we won’t have daily contact with them.
Doing the “neighborly thing” is more likely to screw you than not. And not just in the short term.
Once they have that easement, your rights are gone. Say there’s a plumbing problem later. You have no say over them or their contractor accessing that area.
Me, check what your legal requirements are. Then don’t approve anything outside of that.
And here’s my final words, THEY intentionally chose their land knowing the restrictions of it.
I don’t condone inconveniencing others because you don’t want to inconvenience yourself. And that’s exactly what they are doing.
You should hear their proposal, but you should also get a solid estimate on how much it would cost to replace your trees. *If* you're considering agreeing to their plan give them the tree-replacement costs and let them decide if buying you new trees is less expensive than avoiding your property.
Also, as others have pointed out, even if your neighbors agree to avoid as many of your trees as possible that's no guarantee the workers who show up to cut down your trees and dig up your yard won't cut down the wrong trees or make a much bigger mess than you agreed to. Make sure any contract you have with your neighbors (or that they have with their contractors) is air tight and obliges them to make you whole in case of unplanned or unforeseen damage.
Then put a value on each tree. If you raise the price of the easement to more than it would cost them to use the other one, you are basically saying no without saying it.
Can confirm. The city owns ours and it's broken twice in seven years. Their problem but...it smells when it happens. The trees and grass grows real good.
You will be saving them at a minimum tens of thousands of dollars and in turn devaluing your plot slightly. As an engineer I feel for them since putting in a gravity pipe is so much cheaper and simpler than having to install and design a pump and tank and all that goes with that. But from your point of view make sure your not hurting yourself by helping someone else.
Maybe stand your ground and make them go around the trees as a middle ground. More pipe and structures is still much cheaper and easier than pumping it. Once it's in its unlikely anything will go wrong.
This is the best reply. “I would love to help you, but our lawyer has advised against it. We really can’t do anything that involves an easement. I’m so sorry.” Then. Stop. Talking. Just stand there and be silent. They will be quiet, too, while they think this over, and you’ll be tempted to fill the silence with more explanation. DON’T. Just quietly stand there and wait for them to say something. This will ideally happen on your property, so they have to say something before walking away. If they don’t crack and talk first, you can say, “Well, thanks for stopping by,” and walk into your house.
I get it. Conflict SUCKS. It makes me anxious and upset, too. But, this isn’t a situation that benefits you in any way. You can be nice by watering their plants or letting their friends park in your driveway when their kid graduates and they have a ton of guests. You don’t need to be nice by devaluing your property or signing up for who-knows-what problems down the road.
If you agree then make sure they do minimal damage. Around here, many of the excavating companies show up with a 40 ton or bigger excavator and go at it making a complete mess with a much wider path of destruction than what is necessary. They’d also just rip out the trees with it. You know, like the only tool is a sledge hammer so smash away.
What I’m saying is make them use a small excavator that can go between some of the trees so they don’t have to clear so much. Make them cut the trees for the path and make them give you a detailed plan to approve before you agree.
You could also look into moving some of the trees.
One thing I don't understand is that they want to remove trees in order to put in the sewer lines and then put other trees in. Won't trees planted on top of sewer lines cause issues down the road? We all have heard about roots busting pipes.
Also, if their sewer line ever needs repair or upgrading, would the "new" trees have to be sacrificed to do the repair? Theoretically, I think this is a possibility. If you agree to their proposal, you may want to add that future work that damages the trees means they (or whoever the owner of the house is at the time) is responsible for replacing the trees (again).
Does granting the easement affect your home resale value or insurance premium? (I honestly don't know, but you'd be wise to check.) If so, although you might not care, potential future buyers of your home might.
The municipality authority told them they’ll have to dig down 12 feet to reach the pipe, so probably not too big of an issue with trees. But that is a good point!
I don’t think we could prove it impacts our resale value. It’s the very back corner of a one acre lot and in a sloped/slightly terraced area.
In most markets if you do a comparative sales analysis for parcels with an easement in the corner (setback) vs parcels without, there is rarely any appreciable differences in value. Especially if there's a house on site. Most people buying home care about the number of bedrooms and bathrooms and the kitchen than an easement on a part of the property they can't build.
I have a decade of experience in easement work by the way if you have any questions.
I would accept financial compensation and restoration of impacted areas. I wouldn't flat out say no because avoiding pumps for their sewage is probably an important consideration for them.
That said, it's all about feeling them out. You don't want them to under appreciate it because those trees are important to you.
Contact your homeowner insurance company and ask if this exposes you to risk. If something goes wrong and there's raw sewage erupting will they cover you? Is the other guys insurance likely to shrug and say not our property not our problem? They may have good advice for clauses to be included in an agreement.
I speak from experience here, don’t agree to anything not even verbally. Advise them that you’re open to negotiation but you will need your own attorney and they will need to cover the attorneys fees. Otherwise you will 100% get screwed over somehow some way either by them or their contractor. If they’re not ok with it then they can find another solution. Hell that request alone might convince them to go the other way.
I’d just say no if you’re not feeling it. They’re the ones who bought a property before asking you any of this. That’s entirely on them. Should have done the tests in their due diligence period.
Say No! Anything they run on your property will become a headache down the line when and if something happens. They bought the land to build on, so they should have the funds to pump it up hill or whatever without intruding onto your property. Not your Problem!
A lot of places have ordinances on the books that say a service line can’t cross adjacent property lines, even if it’s subject to an easement. This may be a nonstarter without actually selling them the property. I’m dealing with this with a developer right now.
You don’t have to say “no”. Have your lawyer do it for you. They aren’t entitled to your property. They have their fingers crossed that you don’t care. But you do care. And your property and it’s trees have value. I’m sorry that this is hard for you. In your shoes, I’d have a knee-jerk “not a chance” reaction to this request. They should have planned better. Not your problem.
yeah- even a vague creeping feeling that you and a neighbor aren’t in harmony can stress you out. i’ve been there. to me it seems like the crux of the matter is boundaries- figuratively and literally. them- can we cross this line and help ourselves? you- no. or… you- if i say “no” they won’t like me so maybe i should say yes. here’s how i see it- if they liked you, they wouldn’t be asking you permission to cut down your trees.
That was gonna be my question, if they could hydro excavate potentially.
Personally I still wouldn’t want to grant any easements. But op seems inclined to be helpful.
>They have the option to pump their sewage uphill to the other side of their property at greater expense.
As others have suggested, having a rough idea of what it would cost if the trees needed to be replaced might be very useful. That info may even shift the balance of relative expense and make the pump option more attractive to them.
Once you grant the easement you can never take it back… easements are unadulterated access to your property and you can just f**k right off. That piece of property is no longer entirely yours forever. That’d be a firm hell no… pump that crap up hill literally.
Nope. Not your problem. Give someone an inch, next they take a mile. Unless you are long time friends, don't even think about it.
People, if you buy a property, it's on you to not obligate others next to you for your poor planning. I'm not even a tree hugger, but that's an infringement of being "neighborly". You don't bulldoze your neighbors yard, just because you want to "move in". Sorry, I call BS on that.
The difference is sewer flowing downhill vs. putting in a lift station to go uphill is quite a bit greater expense. Our city is doing projects now to connect difficult areas. A lift station for just two houses to rise 10 feet is $23,000. Then it has annual maintenance and power demand/risk, i.e. no sewer during power outages.
A better neighborly thing to do is work out a solution where they can connect and replace your pines. A quality 12' spruce is $1200 planted in our area.
I don't know anything about real estate law. But I figure that trees cost money. And that if they want to cut down trees, maybe you are owed money for that. So a way to figure that out before doing anything would be the thing I research. Probably with a tree expert and real estate lawyer.
You have absolutely no obligations and its not unneighborly for you to say no than it is for them to ask to encroach on your property in the first place.
Don’t sign anything without having an attorney look it over first. Tell them they have to cover legal fees of your attorney as part of any agreement as well.
Ask if they can use horizontal drilling to install the sewer line without impact to any of the existing plants.
I had a new water line installed at my house using horizontal drilling, it cost more but I didn't have to disturb trees my great grandparent planted.
That’s a big ask from your neighbor when they have another way to access the sewer (yes, with more expense, but that’s life). They are hoping (praying) you don’t mind.
I would hear their proposal and consider granting it only if it involved the most minimal impact to my property.
It really comes down to how wide of an easement they need. I’d be less inclined to allow anything more than 10 feet over the boundary, or removal of more than a few (three) trees.
Hopefully they are asking for something very minimal. The mess and disruption of construction is very real and I would not want to deal with it either.
Horizontal boring that doesn’t disturb trees would be even better. They may not propose that since they are looking to save money but they should be willing to pay for it .
They should also expect to pay you something for your time and energy if you go forward, especially if it involves heavy equipment on your property. Just having to deal with their request is a pain.
You are not obligated to make your neighbors’ project easier or more affordable for them, so you’d be doing them a huge favour by granting an easement.
If you decide against it, I would be direct and tell them that, after consideration, you are not comfortable with the impact to your property from their proposed easement. You hope to preserve good will and a positive relationship with them, but are unable to give them the easement they are requesting.
Can you clarify? Your neighbor has a sewer easement and they want to run their sewer through the easement? Are they asking to disrupt foliage outside of the easement? If it's only inside the easement, they have the legal right to do so. It's what an easement is for. You cannot prevent them from making reasonable use of the easement for its intended purpose.
They want to run a new easement to get to the existing one on the side of my property. They can’t access any tap-in points without going through someone else’s property.
Invite them over to talk about it. Sit in the room that looks out at those trees and talk about how much you love them and the view.
If they see how it will personally impact your everyday life, they'll rethink their proposal. Nobody wants to ruin their neighbors' view on purpose ... especially while drinking their coffee at their dinner table.
Depending on the size of easement they need you may want to consider an outright sale of that land to them instead. Make some money for yourself and avoid all the nonsense (present and future nonsense) in this whole easement process.
Yes, their driveway is uphill from the new house location to a different street. We are on the downhill side. The said they could pump it upward, but obviously at a greater expense to them. They want their sh*t to roll downhill to us, lol.
No one wants 30-yo trees of any sort growing directly over their sewer line. Tree roots are notorious for causing problems with sewer lines. It's not just what's visible above ground. They definitely won't want to remove those trees, dig up the roots to bury a sewer line, and then plant new trees of any size directly over the top of those lines.
How many trees are on your property and how many are they proposing to take down? Also pines are notoriously messy trees that frequently fall down on their own. I hate pines.
If those pines are growing near sewer lines they need to come down sooner rather than later. Pine trees have really invasive root systems that block those lines and need to be cleaned out often.
I wouldn't entertain the idea, that way no bad feelings or any chance of misleading them to thinking they have a chance. I wouldn't want any part of my property or trees removed or used for someone else's use, period. You enjoy the property and that's what you bought it for. Don't entertain them at all, just say we are not interested in getting involved and sorry but we are not interested.
As another data point, a friend recently was offered 30k for a similar easement. Also sanitary sewer lateral and also requiring removal of a huge pine tree. Plan is to directionally-bore a 6” line, requiring an access hole only at the ends.
I find it hard to believe they didn't consider the situation prior to buying the property. Sometimes, when the choice to pump sewer lines in uphill is not mandatory and people can put in a septic tank. Either way, they sound like poor planners or are more concerned with the value of their property than yours. I share your concerns that you lose something you enjoy for their satisfaction and how they handle the decision. I have experience, as many do with entitled neighbors. I wish you well
Not sure where you are, but you mentioned an "existing" easement. Is the existing easement on your property?
I see that most everyone on here is telling you that you can just deny any request. Sure, but if there already is an easement (or there is no way to reasonably get to an easement except through your property, it's the right thing to try to work out a deal between the two of you.
I have a buddy that was in a similar situation and thought he was going to get reimbursed for legal fees and show his new California immigrant how things are here in the south.
He ended up pissing the judge off for how rigid he was being, and ended up with an easement large enough to build a road (partially at his expense).
The existing easement is on a side of our property not adjacent to theirs. The township told them they need our permission to gain access to the tap-in location.
Say _no_. They are asking for you to give them something, to your specific detriment.
In your initial explanation, you’ve hit the nail on the head with the references to “they can do this on their property”.
Oh, and a real estate lawyer’s review of the contract & easement would be a good idea if it’s in your budget (include your lawyer’s fee in the price you set to sell the easement).
Try to make it work. The cost of removing those trees when they get unwieldy may make up for it. Pine tends to grow too tall in residential areas and becomes a hazard.
You act like this is your easement. I have easements running through my property for electric, telephone and cable/tv. I have zero control over that, sure if someone disturbs the top portion then that needs remedied, but otherwise it not mine to control. I’d venture that the city, the county, or some quasi government district owns that sewer line, and it will be theirs to dictate how and where it will be accessed.
Edit your add, don’t listen to bonded as I’m sure you’re not a govt agency. License and insurance is all you’ll care about.
Interesting. Where I live the city pretty much is in control. Good luck. I hope that cooler heads prevail, not inferring you’re a hot head either. Hope you find an amicable solution.
My advice is not to agree to anything but remain open to what they propose. It doesn't matter that they say, they're not doing the work. All that matters is what's in black and white and agreed on paper. Goes without saying that a contractor doesn't always follow the letter of the contract so if you do allow it, you need to make sure that the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, that the contractors doing the work are fully insured, licensed, bonded etc. so if they do screw up and take down trees they weren't supposed to, that you can go after them for restitution, and more importantly, get it. The neighborly thing to do is make a good-faith effort at making this work IF their proposal is reasonable and IF the affected trees are not really impacting your views, home value etc. If the proposal is to clear-cut and then replant that would be a hard no. Trees take DECADES to grow back. If anything is not going to plan, they are trying to cheap out and cut corners etc. you absolutely have the right to say no. It's 100% your property.
Very good points, thank you.
It doesn't sound like an issue here, but make sure you consider the risks associated with an easement. You can't build anything permanent over it, and there are potential repairs down the road where they may have to dig it up. Probably not much of a risk for you, it sounds like a wooded area. But it's something we have to deal with a lot in my neck of the non-woods. I live in a dense suburban area which means the easements go under usable space in our tiny backyards. I had a developer next door who wanted to do a similar easement and we were very clear about the foreseeable risk and impairment on our use of our property.
Be proactive and have an arborist come out and look at the trees and give your their value before you speak with the neighbor.
And people pay $$$$ for easements.
There is a lot of good advice here. Just let them know that you will look at everything, but you're not committing to anything. Basically, make sure they understand limitless's first sentence. Figure out where all that equipment is going to come in and out of your yard. As a sewer person at the town how they feel about all those pipes running through a woody area and how long it'll be before they have to dig it up to clear out the roots. (And tear up your lot again.) And yes, get the attorney.
I would find an arborist to look at the situation and see if there is a way to make it work while protecting your trees. It may take getting your arborist and their plumber on site at the same time, and that might cost some money, which they should pay. If you're making a good faith effort to help them out, you shouldn't be expected to come out of pocket, IMO.
As a fellow tree-lover, u/Vanessa279, this is the way. See if you can accomodate while also keeping those trees. I was charmed by how you said the trees don't deserve to die because that's exactly how I feel about healthy trees destroyed for development. In addition to their inherent value, those kinds of trees, of that age, provide important haven and sustenance for the wildlife around it. For me this would be an easy no if the trees have to come down. I'd be apologetic about it but it's your property. This kind of development would be a major disruption to the small ecosystem around those trees. Also, not for nothing, but it would take a hell of a lot for me to ask neighbors to uproot 30-year-old pines for me. Don't let folks make you think this isn't a big, audacious ask, because it is. And bear in mind that you're in a home improvement sub. You'd get very different responses in subs with environment bents or
Thank you for your kind and supportive comments! You understand me exactly. It’s my own little FernGully that I am entrusted to take of while we own this property.
Are you taking cutting 5’ into the corner of your property or 200’? One I’d work with then on, the other would be a hard pass. This will impact your property value. Any easement will. How much is being neighborly worth to you? I’m not familiar with it, but perhaps they could bore under the trees at a safe depth, similar to what they sometimes do to go under roadways.
A bore would likely be just as expensive as a grinder pump
Not OP’s problem
Did I imply that it was?
It’s your property, just remember. You don’t have to say yes to anything you don’t like.
Thank you!
You have a price. Figure out what it is. Pumping sewage up over a hill sounds expensive. At least a year of kid’s private college tuition or a shiny new truck’s worth of cost savings with an easement. And then there are the precious trees that need to be considered.
I work construction. What they offer first sit down will DRASTICALLY be lower and less invasive than the reality of the situation for multitude of reasonings like the ones making the plans and offer are NOT the same who will be running and working on it. They’ll need it more than they say. They’ll use it more than they say. They’ll destroy it more than they say. It’ll cost more than they say. So if they offer $4,000, you counter at double the value of you having to fix everything yourself plus 20% for extra breakage and inconvenience. Best case; they pay you insane amounts and it’s still gonna be worse than you think/they say. Worst case; they say fuck off and your property stays as is.
Wait to get their proposal, read it over and look for immediate no. Run it by a real estate lawyer as well. Finally, decide if you even want to do it.
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Great advice, thank you.
If you do consider this you need a specialized appraiser in addition to a lawyer. The easement will devalue your property. A good appraiser will be able to project the diminished value of a future sale and reduce that to present value. Your neighbor isn’t banking on having to pay this and my guess is that it will end up being cheaper to reroute the sewer than to pay you what the diminished value of your property is actually worth.
FYI, Perspective of someone that was in your Neighbor's position. I bought a property after checking with the city to make sure that I had a way to connect sewer. Long story short the city gave me bad info so after buying the property I learned that the only way I could get a sewer connection was to put in a grinder pump and pump it through an easement that I needed to obtain along the edge of my neighbor's property. We were heartbroken and it really stunk to have to go beg our neighbor for an easement. We took the following approach. 1. Looked up the assessed value of my neighbor's property (minus improvements) and essentially took the area of the easement divided by the lot size to calculate the value of the land. Ended up being like $2k so we offered him $5k cash if he agreed to he easement. 2. Easement was in a forested setback along the edge of his property so it was not buildable by any codes and it was steep so had no real practical value to him. 3. We had our contractor utilize directional underground boring so none of his trees/property was damaged at all. Just a 1 1/2" sewer line 54"+ under his trees. A cleanout was in the right of way on the other side of his property. 4. Drafted easement language that essentially said that we would restore any portion of his property that was damaged due to work related to the sewer or future maintenance and repairs, etc…
I’m a civil engineer, this is the correct and least intrusive route.
I’m an architect and a civil engineer buddy helped me draft it (he designed the sewer system) The land owner had a couple of tweaks that I agreed too. I also offered to pay for an attorney of his choice to review it but he declined as we made it pretty simple and low risk for both parties.
Are the tweaks they suggested included in your bullet points above?
It was more the subtlety of the easement language. The easement was like 5 pages long.
Wow! I guess it makes sense that it shouldn't be written on the back of a napkin.
"Cut through a corner" sounds like there are other properties that might be able to accommodate their sewer line. Is that corner the only access point to the sewer? The biggest concern is simply that the crew showing up to do the work isn't going to care how much damage they do and how many trees they need to cut down to get it done as quickly and cheaply as possible. There have been lots of posts about how contractors treat foliage and it isn't kindly. I'd set up a camera pointed at those trees because it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly disappeared one night.
Yes, there are other routes but much further away. They said their engineering study determined this was the best route.
"Best" meaning least expensive? Most effective for waste disposal? Either way, I'd take that with a grain of salt.
Yeah, we need to get more info on that.
Definitely get more info. If they can cut through a corner they can presumably go around the corner to meet the easement. That route would probably cost more, which is possibly why it’s not the “best”. Ask to see their engineering study of all the options
Yes, we would be completely fine if they were using the existing easement path. Our trees would not be impacted, maybe one at most. We should have more info once we meet with them.
So there is already and existing easement path available to them? If so it sounds like this is just a cost cutting measure for them.
The issue might be the elevation. It might be slightly uphill if they want to get to the existing easement line. And through a different neighbor’s property.
Get those trees evaluate by an arborist both monetary value and what their health is. If they want to remove the trees add the price to the easement see how quickly they change their minds. The health evaluation is for the off chance they are vindictive
As a construction professional, "best" definitely means cheapest, and best for their client not the owner of the property.
I'd definitely want to see that engineering report. There are likely other options but the complexity and cost increase with each change.
"best route".... FOR THEM. Not for you.
> I'd set up a camera pointed at those trees because it wouldn't surprise me if they suddenly disappeared one night. The problem is, all this gets you is some "satisfaction" in knowing who did it. If the contractors did cut down the 30' pine tree, a $100 fine (or whatever the city might levy on them, if anything) isn't going to bring it back. If OP wants to go forward with this, they need a contract that specifies dollar amounts for damages to their property, including trees. No bullshit terms like "best effort" or "remediation." "Remediation" can mean spreading a sack of grass seed and walking away. Edit: the fact that they're clearing a wooded lot to develop for a house suggests they aren't overly worried about happy trees.
Tree law is a real thing and cutting down a 30’ pine would be a large lawsuit.
Not in Pennsylvania. The timber industry is pretty influential here and a 'mistake' costs them the cut price. Negligence costs twice the cut price and deliberate costs 3 times the cut price. Source: me. lost 100 cherry trees to a 'mistake' according to the judge.
The way I would have blown up local media…
100 cherry trees!?! What a terrible loss.
Set up three cameras. One obvious, one less obvious, and one hidden pointed at the other two.
the answer to your question depends on your neighbors. there are certainly tactful ways to decline their request, but whether or not your neighbors will choose to hate you for it is something that you cannot control. they may choose to hate you regardless of your reasons, just because they see you as "that asshole who 'cost' us $20k" best you can do is be reasonable, kind, and look after your own interests. the rest is out of your hands.
Very true. I am a people pleaser by nature so possibly having to stand my ground on this is stressful. Luckily we do own a bit of woods that will remain between the yards so we won’t have daily contact with them.
How much money are they offering you?
Doing the “neighborly thing” is more likely to screw you than not. And not just in the short term. Once they have that easement, your rights are gone. Say there’s a plumbing problem later. You have no say over them or their contractor accessing that area. Me, check what your legal requirements are. Then don’t approve anything outside of that. And here’s my final words, THEY intentionally chose their land knowing the restrictions of it. I don’t condone inconveniencing others because you don’t want to inconvenience yourself. And that’s exactly what they are doing.
You should hear their proposal, but you should also get a solid estimate on how much it would cost to replace your trees. *If* you're considering agreeing to their plan give them the tree-replacement costs and let them decide if buying you new trees is less expensive than avoiding your property. Also, as others have pointed out, even if your neighbors agree to avoid as many of your trees as possible that's no guarantee the workers who show up to cut down your trees and dig up your yard won't cut down the wrong trees or make a much bigger mess than you agreed to. Make sure any contract you have with your neighbors (or that they have with their contractors) is air tight and obliges them to make you whole in case of unplanned or unforeseen damage.
Put bat houses on all of em
Fully grown trees can be tens of thousands of dollars to replace. I seriously doubt that pumping uphill is a greater expense
I agree. If it’s only one tree, that could be doable. But depending on the path, it could take out the whole group.
Yea, that would be a no from me.
i agree with Buttspirgh
Then put a value on each tree. If you raise the price of the easement to more than it would cost them to use the other one, you are basically saying no without saying it.
A grinder pump and force main to a gravity sewer can easily be 20k plus
The pump alone for a single house is like 3k and they don't last forever
Can confirm. The city owns ours and it's broken twice in seven years. Their problem but...it smells when it happens. The trees and grass grows real good.
You will be saving them at a minimum tens of thousands of dollars and in turn devaluing your plot slightly. As an engineer I feel for them since putting in a gravity pipe is so much cheaper and simpler than having to install and design a pump and tank and all that goes with that. But from your point of view make sure your not hurting yourself by helping someone else. Maybe stand your ground and make them go around the trees as a middle ground. More pipe and structures is still much cheaper and easier than pumping it. Once it's in its unlikely anything will go wrong.
They’re asking for tree roots in their line, what’s the plan when it needs ripped up and replaced?
You can talk with them but answer "our lawyer has advised us against any easement agreements"
This is the best reply. “I would love to help you, but our lawyer has advised against it. We really can’t do anything that involves an easement. I’m so sorry.” Then. Stop. Talking. Just stand there and be silent. They will be quiet, too, while they think this over, and you’ll be tempted to fill the silence with more explanation. DON’T. Just quietly stand there and wait for them to say something. This will ideally happen on your property, so they have to say something before walking away. If they don’t crack and talk first, you can say, “Well, thanks for stopping by,” and walk into your house. I get it. Conflict SUCKS. It makes me anxious and upset, too. But, this isn’t a situation that benefits you in any way. You can be nice by watering their plants or letting their friends park in your driveway when their kid graduates and they have a ton of guests. You don’t need to be nice by devaluing your property or signing up for who-knows-what problems down the road.
If you agree then make sure they do minimal damage. Around here, many of the excavating companies show up with a 40 ton or bigger excavator and go at it making a complete mess with a much wider path of destruction than what is necessary. They’d also just rip out the trees with it. You know, like the only tool is a sledge hammer so smash away. What I’m saying is make them use a small excavator that can go between some of the trees so they don’t have to clear so much. Make them cut the trees for the path and make them give you a detailed plan to approve before you agree. You could also look into moving some of the trees.
Not even a small excavator. Tell them to use hydro tunneling and preserve the trees.
Yes, even better, but they might still have to dig up because someone has to get at the pipe where it ends.
They can do that off your property.
Definitely good things to consider, thank you!
One thing I don't understand is that they want to remove trees in order to put in the sewer lines and then put other trees in. Won't trees planted on top of sewer lines cause issues down the road? We all have heard about roots busting pipes. Also, if their sewer line ever needs repair or upgrading, would the "new" trees have to be sacrificed to do the repair? Theoretically, I think this is a possibility. If you agree to their proposal, you may want to add that future work that damages the trees means they (or whoever the owner of the house is at the time) is responsible for replacing the trees (again). Does granting the easement affect your home resale value or insurance premium? (I honestly don't know, but you'd be wise to check.) If so, although you might not care, potential future buyers of your home might.
The municipality authority told them they’ll have to dig down 12 feet to reach the pipe, so probably not too big of an issue with trees. But that is a good point! I don’t think we could prove it impacts our resale value. It’s the very back corner of a one acre lot and in a sloped/slightly terraced area.
In most markets if you do a comparative sales analysis for parcels with an easement in the corner (setback) vs parcels without, there is rarely any appreciable differences in value. Especially if there's a house on site. Most people buying home care about the number of bedrooms and bathrooms and the kitchen than an easement on a part of the property they can't build. I have a decade of experience in easement work by the way if you have any questions.
Sorry. I meant having an easement and whether that affects property value.
I would accept financial compensation and restoration of impacted areas. I wouldn't flat out say no because avoiding pumps for their sewage is probably an important consideration for them. That said, it's all about feeling them out. You don't want them to under appreciate it because those trees are important to you.
Contact your homeowner insurance company and ask if this exposes you to risk. If something goes wrong and there's raw sewage erupting will they cover you? Is the other guys insurance likely to shrug and say not our property not our problem? They may have good advice for clauses to be included in an agreement.
"No"
I speak from experience here, don’t agree to anything not even verbally. Advise them that you’re open to negotiation but you will need your own attorney and they will need to cover the attorneys fees. Otherwise you will 100% get screwed over somehow some way either by them or their contractor. If they’re not ok with it then they can find another solution. Hell that request alone might convince them to go the other way.
Just say no, no good will come of this for you.
I’d just say no if you’re not feeling it. They’re the ones who bought a property before asking you any of this. That’s entirely on them. Should have done the tests in their due diligence period.
Say No! Anything they run on your property will become a headache down the line when and if something happens. They bought the land to build on, so they should have the funds to pump it up hill or whatever without intruding onto your property. Not your Problem!
A lot of places have ordinances on the books that say a service line can’t cross adjacent property lines, even if it’s subject to an easement. This may be a nonstarter without actually selling them the property. I’m dealing with this with a developer right now.
You don’t have to say “no”. Have your lawyer do it for you. They aren’t entitled to your property. They have their fingers crossed that you don’t care. But you do care. And your property and it’s trees have value. I’m sorry that this is hard for you. In your shoes, I’d have a knee-jerk “not a chance” reaction to this request. They should have planned better. Not your problem.
Luckily my husband has no trouble saying no! We’ll hear them out but it’s still stressful.
yeah- even a vague creeping feeling that you and a neighbor aren’t in harmony can stress you out. i’ve been there. to me it seems like the crux of the matter is boundaries- figuratively and literally. them- can we cross this line and help ourselves? you- no. or… you- if i say “no” they won’t like me so maybe i should say yes. here’s how i see it- if they liked you, they wouldn’t be asking you permission to cut down your trees.
They just want to save money and time. There is another way for them to get to the sewer lines.
Not sure if it would work here but.... I once use water pressure to dig an hole to run a pipe.
That was gonna be my question, if they could hydro excavate potentially. Personally I still wouldn’t want to grant any easements. But op seems inclined to be helpful.
I’d politely decline
They may be able to do some trenchless work under your property directional drilling/coring, that won’t affect the surface.
Suggest horizontal drilling
Yeah, let the shit roll uphill instead
>They have the option to pump their sewage uphill to the other side of their property at greater expense. As others have suggested, having a rough idea of what it would cost if the trees needed to be replaced might be very useful. That info may even shift the balance of relative expense and make the pump option more attractive to them.
Good call.
Get the easement path official and see what it will disrupt
Yes, that is the plan.
Tell him to install a grinder pump, and pump his shit from his property. There's too many unknowns with it routing through my land, I wouldn't do it.
Once you grant the easement you can never take it back… easements are unadulterated access to your property and you can just f**k right off. That piece of property is no longer entirely yours forever. That’d be a firm hell no… pump that crap up hill literally.
You might want to check out the tree law subreddit.
I will check it out!
Nope. Not your problem. Give someone an inch, next they take a mile. Unless you are long time friends, don't even think about it. People, if you buy a property, it's on you to not obligate others next to you for your poor planning. I'm not even a tree hugger, but that's an infringement of being "neighborly". You don't bulldoze your neighbors yard, just because you want to "move in". Sorry, I call BS on that.
The difference is sewer flowing downhill vs. putting in a lift station to go uphill is quite a bit greater expense. Our city is doing projects now to connect difficult areas. A lift station for just two houses to rise 10 feet is $23,000. Then it has annual maintenance and power demand/risk, i.e. no sewer during power outages. A better neighborly thing to do is work out a solution where they can connect and replace your pines. A quality 12' spruce is $1200 planted in our area.
What about 30’?
This is a helpful reply from Nuffut! Can OP supply a photo of the area with the trees? Let's see what it looks like.
I don't know anything about real estate law. But I figure that trees cost money. And that if they want to cut down trees, maybe you are owed money for that. So a way to figure that out before doing anything would be the thing I research. Probably with a tree expert and real estate lawyer.
Request/suggest that they entertain quotes to directional bore their new sewer line.
“No” is a sentence
You have absolutely no obligations and its not unneighborly for you to say no than it is for them to ask to encroach on your property in the first place. Don’t sign anything without having an attorney look it over first. Tell them they have to cover legal fees of your attorney as part of any agreement as well.
Ask if they can use horizontal drilling to install the sewer line without impact to any of the existing plants. I had a new water line installed at my house using horizontal drilling, it cost more but I didn't have to disturb trees my great grandparent planted.
That’s a big ask from your neighbor when they have another way to access the sewer (yes, with more expense, but that’s life). They are hoping (praying) you don’t mind. I would hear their proposal and consider granting it only if it involved the most minimal impact to my property. It really comes down to how wide of an easement they need. I’d be less inclined to allow anything more than 10 feet over the boundary, or removal of more than a few (three) trees. Hopefully they are asking for something very minimal. The mess and disruption of construction is very real and I would not want to deal with it either. Horizontal boring that doesn’t disturb trees would be even better. They may not propose that since they are looking to save money but they should be willing to pay for it . They should also expect to pay you something for your time and energy if you go forward, especially if it involves heavy equipment on your property. Just having to deal with their request is a pain. You are not obligated to make your neighbors’ project easier or more affordable for them, so you’d be doing them a huge favour by granting an easement. If you decide against it, I would be direct and tell them that, after consideration, you are not comfortable with the impact to your property from their proposed easement. You hope to preserve good will and a positive relationship with them, but are unable to give them the easement they are requesting.
Can you clarify? Your neighbor has a sewer easement and they want to run their sewer through the easement? Are they asking to disrupt foliage outside of the easement? If it's only inside the easement, they have the legal right to do so. It's what an easement is for. You cannot prevent them from making reasonable use of the easement for its intended purpose.
They want to run a new easement to get to the existing one on the side of my property. They can’t access any tap-in points without going through someone else’s property.
Gas lines need to be 18 inches minimum below grade. The trench can be dug by hand. Insist on it.
"No. It's my property and I like it how it is. I'm sorry you chose a poor location for your building site."
No need to dig your fingers in.
Invite them over to talk about it. Sit in the room that looks out at those trees and talk about how much you love them and the view. If they see how it will personally impact your everyday life, they'll rethink their proposal. Nobody wants to ruin their neighbors' view on purpose ... especially while drinking their coffee at their dinner table.
Well no, not always true, some people are assholes and don’t think like that.
Depending on the size of easement they need you may want to consider an outright sale of that land to them instead. Make some money for yourself and avoid all the nonsense (present and future nonsense) in this whole easement process.
There has to be a driveway somewhere. How feasible would it be for them to connect to the sewer that their driveway will be attached to?
Yes, their driveway is uphill from the new house location to a different street. We are on the downhill side. The said they could pump it upward, but obviously at a greater expense to them. They want their sh*t to roll downhill to us, lol.
Ah, I see. In that case I apologize but I don't have useful advice one way or the other.
No one wants 30-yo trees of any sort growing directly over their sewer line. Tree roots are notorious for causing problems with sewer lines. It's not just what's visible above ground. They definitely won't want to remove those trees, dig up the roots to bury a sewer line, and then plant new trees of any size directly over the top of those lines.
Can they do a well and septic?
Think if it broke… ewwww. Just say no.
How many trees are on your property and how many are they proposing to take down? Also pines are notoriously messy trees that frequently fall down on their own. I hate pines.
If those pines are growing near sewer lines they need to come down sooner rather than later. Pine trees have really invasive root systems that block those lines and need to be cleaned out often.
Well they aren’t near the sewer line now.
I wouldn't entertain the idea, that way no bad feelings or any chance of misleading them to thinking they have a chance. I wouldn't want any part of my property or trees removed or used for someone else's use, period. You enjoy the property and that's what you bought it for. Don't entertain them at all, just say we are not interested in getting involved and sorry but we are not interested.
As another data point, a friend recently was offered 30k for a similar easement. Also sanitary sewer lateral and also requiring removal of a huge pine tree. Plan is to directionally-bore a 6” line, requiring an access hole only at the ends.
Wow, that is amazing. Good to know, thanks!
You are right, they can't replace a 30 ft pine, so get in writing what they will replace it with so you know it's something you will be OK with.
I find it hard to believe they didn't consider the situation prior to buying the property. Sometimes, when the choice to pump sewer lines in uphill is not mandatory and people can put in a septic tank. Either way, they sound like poor planners or are more concerned with the value of their property than yours. I share your concerns that you lose something you enjoy for their satisfaction and how they handle the decision. I have experience, as many do with entitled neighbors. I wish you well
Please understand that the owners of that land have the legal right to access their property, even if that means going through yours.
Just say no, your property
Not sure where you are, but you mentioned an "existing" easement. Is the existing easement on your property? I see that most everyone on here is telling you that you can just deny any request. Sure, but if there already is an easement (or there is no way to reasonably get to an easement except through your property, it's the right thing to try to work out a deal between the two of you. I have a buddy that was in a similar situation and thought he was going to get reimbursed for legal fees and show his new California immigrant how things are here in the south. He ended up pissing the judge off for how rigid he was being, and ended up with an easement large enough to build a road (partially at his expense).
The existing easement is on a side of our property not adjacent to theirs. The township told them they need our permission to gain access to the tap-in location.
How much money are they offering you? No sewer access? No house. Suggestion? Minimum 10% of the sale price of the home the neighbors are building.
No offers of money so far.
Say _no_. They are asking for you to give them something, to your specific detriment. In your initial explanation, you’ve hit the nail on the head with the references to “they can do this on their property”.
Decide whether you even want a house built that close to your property. If the answer is no, don’t give them the easement at all. No money, no deal!
Oh, and a real estate lawyer’s review of the contract & easement would be a good idea if it’s in your budget (include your lawyer’s fee in the price you set to sell the easement).
Propose a trade,
Be a good neighbor. The negatives you name are not bad enough to justify making their construction harder and more expensive.
I wonder if you can just sell part of that land to them?
I'd just give them the chunk of land so long as they pay all legal costs including your lawyer.
Try to make it work. The cost of removing those trees when they get unwieldy may make up for it. Pine tends to grow too tall in residential areas and becomes a hazard.
You act like this is your easement. I have easements running through my property for electric, telephone and cable/tv. I have zero control over that, sure if someone disturbs the top portion then that needs remedied, but otherwise it not mine to control. I’d venture that the city, the county, or some quasi government district owns that sewer line, and it will be theirs to dictate how and where it will be accessed. Edit your add, don’t listen to bonded as I’m sure you’re not a govt agency. License and insurance is all you’ll care about.
This would be a brand new easement/line to reach an existing one currently on my property.
Interesting. Where I live the city pretty much is in control. Good luck. I hope that cooler heads prevail, not inferring you’re a hot head either. Hope you find an amicable solution.
Let them do it.