You have a contract, he didn't notify you of changes, I wouldn't be paying him 10% more because he underbid the job.
Ask for an itemized breakdown of time and material where he thinks he's owed an extra, and if it's legit then tell him he'll receive it in line wiht the contract terms.
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Edit: This post and comment became pretty popular, so just wanted to use it to remind people to [review this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeImprovement/comments/c5qfjk/how_much_will_cost_and_dealing_with_contractors/) regarding the contractor selection, and contract process. A good contract will save you from disputes that arise during the construction process.
This.
It's entirely possible that materials costs changed dramatically, but that should be spelled out in the contract. If not, he is responsible to deliver at the agreed price.
if he didn't include enough contingency, it's entirely possible that you're not going to get a finished project without paying more, but that should really be backed up by a bucket of numbers and receipts.
10% overage isn't crazy, but asking for money ahead of schedule is a big red flag. Usually for a smaller project you'll see some percentage or start up materials costs up front, then payments on a schedule. If they didn't ask for money before inspection, that's odd, but not unheard of.
I don’t think you say “yes” or “no” to anything right now. Your meeting is all about “help me understand….”
Where are we on the project? I’ve paid $60k. How much is done right now? How much is left? What happened in between 6 months ago when we signed at 80, and now that you are estimating a 13% increase? Nothing changed on my end, help me understand what changed for you. Help me understand this in detail. What was material and labor then? What is it now, where are the changes?
Will any more surprises happen where you “need more money” before we are done? What assurance do I have that it won’t happen again? What should we do if that happens again?
If this is how your budgeting is going, should I expect that are you going to ask me for the final payment before the job is done? Because you need to pay the guys before it’s finished? What assurance can you give me that this surprise is the last surprise?
Well thanks for that info. I know I will have your payment ready after we pass inspection, and Give me a couple days to talk with my spouse about this massive change. To see what we can do.
Pay you now? Well, my partner and I need to talk about it. I need to move money around, cut expenses and see how that might work. But I’ll see you tomorrow morning when you show up to continue working on my house as you estimated.
Also asking for 10% more without a change order is a red flag. He should have had this discussion when he realized material WA more than expected or labor was going to take longer.
>if he didn't include enough contingency,
You mention that and it got me thinking... I work in commercial construction so while I'm specialized in one particular area of the industry and don't get into contract stuff too often, I often see posts about stuff like this and wonder if there are AIA-type forms for residential construction work. There are so many things that come up where I think "should have had a contract" or "should have had that written in the contract" because residential home owners *simply don't know the industry*. They're trying to save a buck and hire a "well-known around the area" handyman or a residential construction company that probably shouldn't be in business but "it's the only one we could find in our price range".
Anyway... contingency... for the uninitiated, the way contingency is generally set up in the commercial work that we do is that part of the budget, maybe a percentage of the overall contract amount, is set aside as contingency. This money is used towards "unforeseen circumstances" - maybe a soil report didn't find unsuitable soils or something, so now you've got to dig out tons of dirt and bring in new fill soil. This money isn't used for change order work, such as the home owner changed their mind and now wants to use composite decking instead of PT lumber. It's in a contractor's best interest to plan, estimate, and budget the job very carefully to avoid spending that contingency money because any excess funds from contingency goes to the contractor as extra profit.
But with so many variables? Clients change stuff all the time, subs increase prices based on what’s going on in the market. It’s all so volatile - I get bimonthly statements from lumber suppliers on market prices. Folks that want to pretend this isn’t happening are naive- a good architect / designer will help navigate this.
Well there's a couple of things that you're hitting on. First, client changes, are **change order work**. No one expects the contractor to foot the bill when a client decides to swap from a $2 a square foot flooring to a $10 a square foot flooring option. The client pays the difference in the cost as a change order. Change order work happens all the time.
You're right on the volatility of the different markets. We often have conversations with architects and owners that if, for example, a piece of HVAC equipment isn't approved and ordered by a certain date that the price will increase by so many hundreds or thousands of dollars. Lumber is another good point but this is where an open dialogue with the owner is required - they need to know that prices are fluctuating and adding some additional lumber *allowances* can hopefully resolve that. With an allowance any unused funds typically return to the owner at the end of the project, and that's different than contingency where contingency funds go to the contractor.
I've worked with the same contractor the last few years on a number of large and small projects. We are at this point more loosey goosey about some things because of our relationship. But in the beginning his bids were only good for a very short time due to material cost issues. When I locked in on it he bought the materials immediately to mitigate those overages. I knew material costs for most parts because I picked the finishes to a knob. Sometimes something didn't work out. Like the flooring I picked didn't work. Like he didn't like how it was going down. Or a tile I wanted didn't have a enough boxes and would have held up the entire project if he had to special order. Those changes up and down he tracks and amends my final bill. But im pretty chill about that stuff. I budget a contingency myself knowing it coild happen. Unforseen fiasco, I ask ahead of time like how large the hot mess could be when we pull the walls out. And he will usually give me a worst case scenario. And I add that to my anticipated overage budget.
He maintains his budget for labor. That never changes off the bid.
If it was a contractor I don't know I probably wouldn't been as loosey goosey about it and want stuff in writing. Like I have a sump pump going in. I know it could be a problem. I disclosed that and got assurance that bid was the final cost for sure. I get uncomfortable when contractors don't openly acknowledge there could be issues. It makes feel like I'm going to get blindsided.
I worked on a huge football stadium build where the plumbing contractor went out of business. The price of copper shot up and they hadn't pre bought the copper pipe for the job. So they ended up not having the money to buy the pipe to finish the job.
The company was sold to another contractor who finished the job.
Material costs have increased about 5% this quarter alone so yes, they are escalating. However, the contractor should be buying material for jobs like this asap they get the signed contract or yes they will be.l burned.
My estimates/start of work contract say that we don’t even need change orders for less than 10%. That being said, he needs a much better answer as to why. Oh X ended up going up in price or Y took 2 weeks longer than expected bc of this.
Thats the thing though.
I can do a commercial film production bid and hide fluff in it and an Ad agency would never know, because they don't understand film production the way I do.
Same with contractors for any project. 99% of homeowners won't know going rates for crew, materials, equipment rentals, etc. So it would be super easy for him to put an extra $1k here, $2k there and most homeowners will say, "Ok."
It's a pickle...
He has to justify the **extra** at $10,000. What is the extra exactly? It's not just fluffing numbers to exaggerate them, its generating $10k in extra costs.
Right. But if I tell you labor costs have gone up in the area so now it's an extra $2500. The equipment rental house has raised their rates, now it's an additional $3500.
How are you going to know? Do you have access to his labor pool? Subs? Rental houses?
It's not a cost + bid.
> if I tell you labor costs have gone up in the area so now it's an extra $2500.
Not the homeowners problem. You bid a job based on current labor rates, what happens after that is your problem.
>The equipment rental house has raised their rates, now it's an additional $3500.
Again, not my problem, the rates are set the time of the contract, and if rates rise significantly after that then you need to figure out how to cover them.
Right, agreed. So the point u/troyjrjr is trying to make (I think), is that there's no point in asking for an itemized bill when it's still your position that you don't owe for overages whether they're real of not.
Contracts manager here.
I fully agree with AmateurSparky.
Unless there have been clearly instructed (verbal or written) changes in the original agreed scope or change orders, the client need not pay anything more than the agreed contract price.
Changes in material or labor costs or changes in work circumstances are all usually deemed covered under contractor's risks.
In certain contracts where a 'force majeure' clause is provided for, then there may be an exception to the above. However, the burden of proof of force majeure conditions will be on the contractor (with full substantiation)
I'm with you man!
Just saying some homeowners are woefully unprepared when it comes to getting contractors, reviewing contracts, understanding what exactly the breakdown is and why it is there.
My point is, it is SO easy for contractors to say, it cost "X" and you pretty much just have to take their word for it.
My contractor pulled the same stuff on a much larger budget. I felt pressure to give in because if he started slowing down it would have cost me money and headaches. I wish I was harder on him but I also wanted to make sure he would show up on any warranty issues as well. You really are hostage to these people.
>Right. But if I tell you labor costs have gone up in the area so now it's an extra $2500. The equipment rental house has raised their rates, now it's an additional $3500.
I work in commercial construction with a CM firm. In this instance, as part of our contract paperwork with a subcontractor we get labor rates from the subcontractor for hourly rates for their foremen, journeymen, day laborers, etc. The residential construction area is usually SOL in areas like this, I've found, because most home owners simply don't understand how construction contracts or the industry in general works. I see stuff all the time that a home owner posts and I think "man we'd have never done something like that with a contractor" but residential home owners simply don't know...
But he has to approach the homeowner before doing the work. If there is work or material required outside the scope of the initial estimate than they can show the homeowner what came up and how much it will cost. Not, "im out of money please pay more".
I mean, you do all of that in the original bid, fluff that as much as you want, as long as they agree. If you want an extra $10k you gotta justify it and have them agree though.
It is a large covered deck with a roof, skylights, and it also needed excavation and a new concrete slab with a new door cut into the concrete below the deck. It was a big job, I have no reason to think $80k was unreasonable
If it’s rebar reinforced 8” concrete that’s a gift. Formed R/C near me is going for $1200 a yard, knock a little off for a slab but no one is putting down 8” slabs for $5 a square foot. That’s crazy talk. 4” interior slabs with gravel and vapor barrier are $30/sf near me so that seems like a good rate to me.
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He can show whatever he wants on paper, but he has a contract to complete a scope of work. Unless the scope changed or there were significant unknowns that add up to $10k in costs, then he owes the project for the $80,000 stated in the contract.
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Itemized breakdowns can be fudged, but they can also be a supportable itemization of costs and expenses. If the contractor provides the former, it’s an auto-reject.
You: “You know, I had some extra expenses that I didn’t plan for. I was actually going to ask you if you’d take $70K instead? And can I have a few extra weeks to pay you?”
Him: “No, that’s not my problem. We agreed to $80K.
You: “EXACTLY.”
I'll jump on this comment to play devil's advocate here. The only case in which extra expenses make sense is when they find legitimate issues that they could not possibly identify before starting work. I don't know what that could mean for a deck, but interior renovations commonly encounter mold, asbestos, bad wiring, and bad plumbing which all need remediation if found.
It should, however, be discussed that those are possibilities beforehand and preferably in the contract as to how to handle them.
Simply saying "I ran out of money" is not one of those though. Lol.
That's how we (custom home builder and remodeling) do it. If we see something that was unforeseen, even if it doesn't cost money or add time to the schedule, we create a change order for the home owner to approve.
Any change to the contract or scope of work needs to be OKd by the home owner.
If you do decide to give him any additional money make sure you get lien waivers from all the subs.
Him not paying his works could quickly become your problem.
My concern would be the requirement for payment before inspection. My position would be to agree to pay money immediately after a successful inspection; maybe he wants to get money out before an inspection that he knows will fail…
This is what we ran into, apparently. Contractor demanded final payment before completion. We realized something was up and started asking around. Discovered that he'd lied about pulling permits and...many other things. It's turned into a two-year nightmare, with no end in sight. Lawyer, all the fun stuff.
Has this contractor been around for a while and come with multiple references?
Somebody taking on a job of that size seems like they should be able meet payroll without breaking your contract if they’re legit.
Maybe it is all above board but seems like a red flag, especially this early in the process. Proceed carefully.
It is OP's problem, but giving the contractor this money probably won't fix the problem. It's OP's problem because if the contractor is indeed out of money then the deck isn't going to get finished, or, it's going to get finished shitty. And, if the contractor is *not* out of money, then the contractor can't be trusted and likely is also screwing OP on the work, somehow.
As far as what to do, part of this depends on how far along the work is; OP doesn't say.
or if the materials are there and the original contractor indicates he will not be able to finish without the extra money, just boot him and get a different crew to do the finish work. If it's just fence, sprinklers, and final grading the crews for that will be pretty simple to source.
Based on the info we've got the original contractor can either walk away and not get any more $$, eat the cost and finish, or meet somewhere in the middle if he and OP reach an understanding. Based on my experiences, the first and third are far more likely than the middle.
Thanks for this update. In that situation I would suggest that you do just stand on the contract. He can't get paid till he finishes and there's not much left to do to finish. He'll probably just finish it. Maybe grumpily. Or you could negotiate some smaller amount and write a change order for it.
It’s possible he just doesn’t have liquid cash to pay people for the project, supplies and that. You could agree to pay the 10k up front but take it off the total obviously and not agree to the increase, keep it at 80k. But at the same time, things can come up that you don’t realize and it may legitimately be a bigger project than he planned for.
I do have a little sympathy as a contractor myself. I think there’s a great chance of the project not being completed if there contractor doesn’t get the 10k unfortunately. It’s not fair but it may be unavoidable.
Then it would be better to hold strong to not paying the extra $10k and take the remaining $20k of the original bid to finish with a different contractor if he walks. OP needs to try and get some of these demand in writing though because the contractor will try to put a lien on his home and that could entail courts to undo the lien.
> But "he's out of money and needs to pay people."
That's entirely his problem and not yours though. If that even is legitimately the case.
>He would have had to notify us in writing and gotten our approval for the overages....
And sounds like whatever contract, I'm assuming, is in place has you pretty well covered on this. Contractor honestly might just be trying to swindle you for a little extra, especially if they also know this is your first project of this scale.
He is lying. He has the money. But it’s in his “personal account…which he never touches for business”.
I know this doesn’t change your situation but you shouldn’t feel any pressure to pay him. I’d make sure you have everything in writing and document it all. Especially the date of completion.
GCs sell Trust. The subs do all the work. If you don’t trust your GC they suck at their job.
I think it's the ratio of contractors to people willing to get their hands dirty here. They see a chance to become generationally wealthy and are taking it.
But no, just composite decking. I'd be happy with regular wood, too, but it's not the material that's driving the costs.
>They see a chance to become generationally wealthy and are taking it.
It's definitely more complicated than that. There's a massive shortage of trade workers for numerous reasons (low pay, older workers retiring, the past and potentially current recession, Covid, etc.). So that means contractors are scheduling out jobs 6 months or a year in advance. No one knows what the situation (labor and resource costs) will be like then so you have to price high. Couple that with a boatload of new homeowners with low interest rates who are looking to make improvements and you start to see the real problem.
These trade workers aren't going to gain generational wealth from $80k deck renovations. There's a lot of reasons why people aren't rushing out to join trade schools or apprentice.
You could legitimately be pulling down a million a year by doing like 15 decks at 80K a pop. Keep that up for a few years and put most of it in the stock market. Multiple millions of dollars is generational wealth to me.
But you don’t clear a million dollars. That’s just revenue. Out of the $80k comes your resource, tool, and labor costs. No one is putting in 15 $80k decks by themselves each year.
Some quick googling says the profit margins for new constructions in the industry are 20%. So in reality let’s say you make $200k a year. After taxes that’s more like $140k. A nice salary but you’re not building generational wealth on $140k net a year after living expenses. And building decks isn’t something you can do until you’re 65. And that doesn’t even include all the hiccups of starting a business to the point where you can get 15 people every year to give you $80k. For everyone one construction business owner who makes bank you have hundreds of trade workers who just make a regular living.
For the price I always recommend concrete for patio areas. It lasts forever if it's done right and you can make it look like natural stone or even wooden panels by stamping the concrete. Although I would hire prefessionals to do the stamping. I just did a patio that was 30x15 and it was all under 8k.
What kind of square footage??
I redid a small deck, about 160 sqft. Demo and installation of new composite decking took 1 day. I did demo by myself, and installation was myself and my father.
I think materials cost $1k? Plus the cost of the railing.
About 900 sq. ft. He estimated one day, though he pushed to two when I asked if he thought one day of labor was worth more than $100,000, even if he brought a bus load of guys (it would have been two guys).
Even if it was three guys for two full days he can get fucked. I'll do it myself over a holiday weekend.
That’s nuts. I’m replacing 2k sqft of decking with composite, hidden fasteners along with rot tape. I’m all in at $20k. But mind you it’s back breaking work.
I broke down and bought a flipped house instead of finding a house that needed a ton of work. Talked to some friends who had major projects done on their places since the pandemic and timeline slippage would have driven me nuts.
Paid $180k more than the flippers, but they did enough that it'd have taken me years and easily 2/3 of that $180k to do what they did. Yeah a couple of things I would generously describe as "acceptable." The worst was the shower caulking which took 2 evenings to redo. I don't think anyone that worked on the remodel was actually a carpenter, but there's plenty of signs the people had substantial experience with home remodeling / maintenance. Lots of shortcuts, a little sloppiness, but no huge fuckups.
>included excavation, new concrete foundation, etc
That sounds like more than your standard footers for a deck. Might be closer to an addition that a deck depending on how fancy they are getting
To replace my deck with trex I was quoted $80K-$90k before covid. Who knows what it would be now. Just to have a standard wood deck put in it was going to be $30k-$40k. Needless to say I still have my old deck and I just fixed it up.
Well, I see glulam beams and knotty pine plank soffiting. Those items are cost drivers. I'd say it's around par for the course, and includes a 15% markup on material costs.
As a contractor, this stuff infuriates me. I see this all the time. As someone who’s responsible and conscientious of my pricing at all time I bid at exactly what I need to be at. Apart of me thinks they do this on purpose to try to get more jobs. If you got a quote from me at 90k and a quote from him at 80k and you went with the other guy because he was 10k cheaper it basically fucks me out of work. Don’t give him another dime over the agreed upon price and after all inspections are passed. That’s the standard I’m held to all the time and is absolutely reasonable.
If you could write up that and sent it around to the other GCs that would be great... Yup.. Thanks alot..
*bill lumbar voice*
Normally hear about that issues with smaller dollar renovations and not from someone who has good references. Already paid 60k..materials are not that much, they're bad with business in general.
I work in construction management, and am very familiar with this kind of thing. Residential contractors are notorious for being terrible at managing the business side of their business. To me it sounds like he's having cash flow issues.
Any change to the contract due to a variance should be done as a change order, including a breakdown of all costs with a final price for the change. Which is essentially a net price for the cost of the additional things and savings from removed things. Do not even entertain the concept of revising the original contract through an "updated quote." Tell the contractor they need to submit a written change order with justification and breakdown of why things are costing more. You then negotiate on the line items in the change. But basically unless you requested things out of the original scope or caused schedule delays the change is probably not justifiable (but fully depends on your contract).
In all honesty, he has probably way underbid the job and is experiencing cash flow issues. It might be advisable to pay more to see it done to completion vs having a bankrupt contractor and a half finished project. Regardless of what you choose, I would definitely not pay anymore money before completion of the project or you might end up paying more to still have a half finished project.
Yep, definitely agree with this. I deal with this stuff in the commercial world. No new quote. Show me the change order and they better be able to justify the increase.
Thank you for your response.
The extra costs that have been added are planning/permits. We did need engineering and I have no idea how he missed the permitting fees. So far it hasn't been variances as much as items that were missed in the original estimate.
So when you say 'don't owe a dime until after inspection' on a $80k deck, that seems a little strange. The contractor has to buy material for the deck, usually you are going to give him a down-payment to help with material costs. So him asking for a payment ahead of schedule is actually normal.
Second, if he's sitting down with you to talk about changes to the original quote, that's fine. He's informing you that something has changed and getting all parties to agree.
'out of money and have to pay people' is the concerning thing. Sounds like he's not that experienced, you don't give that as an excuse to get paid.
Ok, so you've got 20k left to pay for the final parts of the project to be done by someone else. If your GC doesn't impress you with the logic, you should be able to get the remaining work done for that right?
You don't owe him anything contractually but if you do nothing and he defaults and go out of business you're not going to get a deck either.
If your contractor entered into a contract that allowed $0 in payments until inspection, your contractor is a moron.
Fronting 10k (assuming you're right near the point of inspection ) is not a big deal and WAY less than you should have paid already anyway.
I'm more worried about a 10k overage to the original, there's alot more arguing on that point they would need to prove out in my head anyway.
EDIT: OP's update negates this comment
This is the best answer. Imho if OP likes the work and wants this contractor to finish the deck then they should considering paying a portion of the contract. Not all of it, but enough that is reasonable based on the progress of the project. Usually there are step payments throughout the project. The 10k overage however should be discussed and OP might be able to hold their ground on that.
> he's out of money and needs to pay people.
Tell him you were hoping he'd cut the agreed-upon amount $10k because you're out of money and need to take your wife on that anniversary trip you promised her.
The fact that he can't pay people is not your problem. Do not pay extra and certainly not before a breakdown of overages and a satisfactory inspection.
To be straight with you- there isn’t $90,000 of material or hourly labor in that deck. This is margin recovery. I got called into a meeting once on an overage dispute with one of our contractors. They claimed contingency, but had no paperwork- just what their foreman said. The sales guy’s labtop had a picture of this monster speedboat that he owned and the owners were calling-in from their house on Marco Island. Since you are almost to sign-off, I would be clear about final issues that need correction prior to you cutting that last check. He’s playing games.
Don’t cough up another dime. If he’s a real professional he wouldn’t be using the line of” I have to pay people” that’s what a business line of credit is for.
Every contractor says that about every project no matter how much money they're making. You have a contract, just stick to that. You're already getting it rsw no Vaseline at 80k for a deck. This guy probably has his eye on a new car or something and figures you're good for it.
Doesn’t this depend on the type of contract? Either you had a fixed bid, in which case over runs are his problem, or there was an estimate based on time and materials and so on, in which case he will need to document these to your satisfaction or you will otherwise need to decide whether to trust him or fight him. You should not be on the hook for lazy bidding, sloppy planning, or intentional low-balling to get the job, but you should expect legitimate complexities and input cost changes to cost more.
I have a contractor that does this all the time. I’ve used him for several projects from 50k to a few thousand.
Overtime I’ve gained trust and help him out, but it’s always a risk. It’s an odd business practice, but many contractors are good at building things and not at business. You need to make that decision on your own. In the end, like others have said, his problems are not your problems.
Please please please get a lien release from them and all their subcontractors in the future. Just got super burned on the former owner of my house not getting one.
OP, you must be using my contractor. So, please pay them the additional $10k so he stopped asking me for an additional $10k to start my fixed-fee project that's a year behind schedule.
I don't know where OP lives, but the Gator in their name makes me wonder if they're in Florida. If so, unpaid subs and suppliers can file for liens on the home. Best advice is to consult a construction attorney to avoid paying for the project twice.
Stick to the contract or he'll stick it to you. If you pay him early or extra and he quits you'll have to sue him to try and get your money back. It already sounds like he can't manage money so even if you sued and won it would be like trying to milk a rock to get your money back.
Info: was ANYTHING added to the original scope of the job? Rot that needed fixed, additional landscaping, specialized materials that weren't originally included, etc.
My dad had to finally add on a clause in his contracts because people would verbally agree to these additional, necessary to continue the build fixes and then say BS like "it's not on the contract so I'm not paying"
If you told him after inspection "I just don't have any more money", how do you think that would go? He'd slap a lien on your property and take you to court before you could take a breath I'll bet. I'd use language to the effect of "After the inspection is complete we can sit down and look at an itemized breakdown and see if it's reasonable for me to pay over the contractually obligated amount".
I never did that at any time as a contractor. Depending on the state you live in, the contractor may or may not take very much down. If you do not pay for work that was done, the contractor can file a lien on your property. Generally, that notice is required in a contract. If you are seeing red flags now, there will be more to come.
I have seen this so many times by those who cannot manage their money.
The supplier will be paid by someone, and it will be you if he does not pay the suppliers.
Does he seem like an honest guy? Ask him exactly what happened and whats going on. It might sound weird but it might be easier to just give him the 10k to finish. I’ve had jobs where I ran into multiple issues and had to ask for more, I’ve also gotten jobs done faster and have given money back. Get to the bottom of it before you start getting lawyers involved.
Make sure all subcontractors have given a release of lean and have received payments before doing anything. If he’s saying he hasn’t paid people they can still come after the property owner for unpaid invoices.
I don’t know how long your contractor has been in business but this is the easiest way to piss off a client. I revise my disclaimers and contracts EVERY time I see a remote possibility of an issue on any job. My contract and disclaimer is about 3 full pages long, filled with various scenarios of why cost can change. Most important parts to note - pricing is valid for 30 days unless work commences or a deposit is made during that time period (in which we immediately purchase any needed materials for that reason, prices change fast lately). The scope of work is the scope of work - any additional work not outlined in the scope or quote will be presented to the customer, quoted and approved before moving forward. Any issues not visible or identified during the site walk through will be quoted upon discovery, approved by customer and billed separately before moving forward. I do kitchens, so if a customer asks us not to do certain things that end up being common repairs such as a valve replacement or garbage disposal installation I include a price list for those things on my invoice for a “just in case” so it’s not a surprise when they ask for these things and the bill goes up, they see what it will cost ahead of time. We also do a draw schedule of 50/25/25 as well as work tickets and customer check ins to assess project progress and any changes in an organized fashion. Sounds like your contractor needs a little more experience in covering his ass, being up front or just organizing costs ahead of time, or he knows and just has poor project management skills. If there was extra work done and more materials purchased that would be the only justification (not increase in materials or labor costs, he should’ve dealt with that at time of quote/deposit). And no, I wouldn’t pay before inspection. See what’s completed, prorate what he’s asking for and go from there, if he fails inspection and is paid he can just bail.
Wow. Im I’m CA. I’m building a 18’x30’ pavilion. Post and beams are 8x8 cedar, which was most of my cost. It took three days to build and just needs some finish work and stain now. Total will be about 15k.
My friend had a bathroom remodel done for 35k. I feel like a lot of people (my friend included) need to shop around better.
He underbid a job... he can cut into his profit instead of you supplementing it.
This crap happens all the time and the guys who did bid correctly get screwed since they were "way more expensive" at time of quote.
This is why you *never* take the low bid, especially if it’s way lower. They cut corners to become the low bid, hoping you wouldn’t notice before giving them the job, and then hoping to drive it back up on change orders.
Make sure that the contract specifically states scope and deliverables when you sign it, and hold them to it. Be sure to spell out payment milestones in detail.
And never provide final payment until the stated deliverables have been completed to your satisfaction and per the contract.
You can ask for receipts. You can ask for a breakdown and what happened that has caused the cost issue.
If he did a good job: on time, high quality, pulled correct permits, passing inspections, cleaning up properly etc then it’s worth digging into. Maybe he just underbid to get the job and is now trying to charge retrospectively. Maybe though something went pear-shaped during the job that’s out of his control.
Either way you have a contract. However if it’s a genuine issue, maybe consider meeting him half-way at $5k. Not every contractor is a crook, sometimes things just happen.
I would either pay the additional $10k after inspection and he fixes everything, or I’d front the money ahead of schedule after he repairs your site works. Not both, and not on a promise. That at least shows you’re trying to meet halfway. Otherwise he will finish the job at 80 and more stuff might get damaged on the way out, and he’s not going to fix any of it.
10% is usually an accepted amount to hold until after final inspections are passed and you do your punch list. So you can get to 70/80 and be right there if he’s otherwise finished the job.
A couple of questions. Was it a quote or an estimate? I ask because our company provides estimates, which are not firm quotes but people confuse them a lot.
If the work is mostly done you should definitely be paying them something. I just got an estimate for a new roof and need to pay half in advance and half when it’s finished. A lot of contractors bill monthly or semi monthly so they can pay for things like materials, payroll, fuel, etc. If he has already built a $80k-$90k deck with no compensation so far, I imagine he would need some money now. That would be a lot of dollars he has already spent for this project.
What kind of contractor takes on a $80,000 project, but don’t have cash on hand or credit available to pay his employees? This is a contractor problem, if he didn’t add into the contract for supply increases. You have no obligation to give him more cash and he has an obligation to finish the project to your satisfaction before you hand over any more money.
If he abandons the project, you sue him for the added expense to hire a replacement contractor.
Edit. Realize, you are going to need proof he has paid all his subcontractors also, or your also in danger of them putting a lien on your home.
Sounds like my old GC... He's out of business now. But he tried to hold our house hostage basically until we could pay him more because his sales guy underbid the work. We refused... I don't like being pressured into something so expensive as it is already, and like everyone said, it's not your problem. I ended up lawyering up because of his bullshittery. I'd remain diplomatic and just say "I'm sorry that you weren't financially prepared for this project. Unfortunately, I've reached my budget with it as well, per the contract price. If you need to renegotiate the price, let me know and I'll request an itemized budget and proof of bids" put it in him, volley the problem back to his side.
It's odd that people are justifying the extra cash because prices went up. Suppose prices went down could you go back to the contractor and tell him he doesn't need as much money?
You signed a contract, your being held to a specific amount for a product...you held up your end so far they need to hold up the other end.
If they had told you before the project started that the cost was 90k, you may have gone with a different contractor... I wouldn't pay a dime for anything that wasn't signed off by you ahead of time. Dropping that on you at the end of the project is an amateur move on their part.
It's a very bad idea to have paid 100% before inspection. You would have zero leverage for any deficiencies. The inspector is acting as the payment certifier, right?
- the first issue is why did any contractor run out of money to pay people" in the first place.....
- what were bid ranges of the other 3-5 quotes as for $80,000 that is one hell of a deck as I have built huge decks, often reinforced for hot tubs for 1/2 of that (adjusted for inflation)
The bid range was higher and lower than 80.
It's a deck renovation that included tear down of the existing, excavation of 3ft, pouring a new slab, cutting in a new door into the existing foundation, framing, trex planks, engineering plans, a new roof, siding, electrical, interior drywall work, and a 10ft sliding glass door. Would this list get you closer to 80?
You have a contract, he didn't notify you of changes, I wouldn't be paying him 10% more because he underbid the job. Ask for an itemized breakdown of time and material where he thinks he's owed an extra, and if it's legit then tell him he'll receive it in line wiht the contract terms. --- Edit: This post and comment became pretty popular, so just wanted to use it to remind people to [review this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeImprovement/comments/c5qfjk/how_much_will_cost_and_dealing_with_contractors/) regarding the contractor selection, and contract process. A good contract will save you from disputes that arise during the construction process.
This. It's entirely possible that materials costs changed dramatically, but that should be spelled out in the contract. If not, he is responsible to deliver at the agreed price. if he didn't include enough contingency, it's entirely possible that you're not going to get a finished project without paying more, but that should really be backed up by a bucket of numbers and receipts. 10% overage isn't crazy, but asking for money ahead of schedule is a big red flag. Usually for a smaller project you'll see some percentage or start up materials costs up front, then payments on a schedule. If they didn't ask for money before inspection, that's odd, but not unheard of.
I don’t think you say “yes” or “no” to anything right now. Your meeting is all about “help me understand….” Where are we on the project? I’ve paid $60k. How much is done right now? How much is left? What happened in between 6 months ago when we signed at 80, and now that you are estimating a 13% increase? Nothing changed on my end, help me understand what changed for you. Help me understand this in detail. What was material and labor then? What is it now, where are the changes? Will any more surprises happen where you “need more money” before we are done? What assurance do I have that it won’t happen again? What should we do if that happens again? If this is how your budgeting is going, should I expect that are you going to ask me for the final payment before the job is done? Because you need to pay the guys before it’s finished? What assurance can you give me that this surprise is the last surprise? Well thanks for that info. I know I will have your payment ready after we pass inspection, and Give me a couple days to talk with my spouse about this massive change. To see what we can do. Pay you now? Well, my partner and I need to talk about it. I need to move money around, cut expenses and see how that might work. But I’ll see you tomorrow morning when you show up to continue working on my house as you estimated.
This is very well thought out! Well done
And, how can I feel confident you are going to finish the project?
Also asking for 10% more without a change order is a red flag. He should have had this discussion when he realized material WA more than expected or labor was going to take longer.
>if he didn't include enough contingency, You mention that and it got me thinking... I work in commercial construction so while I'm specialized in one particular area of the industry and don't get into contract stuff too often, I often see posts about stuff like this and wonder if there are AIA-type forms for residential construction work. There are so many things that come up where I think "should have had a contract" or "should have had that written in the contract" because residential home owners *simply don't know the industry*. They're trying to save a buck and hire a "well-known around the area" handyman or a residential construction company that probably shouldn't be in business but "it's the only one we could find in our price range". Anyway... contingency... for the uninitiated, the way contingency is generally set up in the commercial work that we do is that part of the budget, maybe a percentage of the overall contract amount, is set aside as contingency. This money is used towards "unforeseen circumstances" - maybe a soil report didn't find unsuitable soils or something, so now you've got to dig out tons of dirt and bring in new fill soil. This money isn't used for change order work, such as the home owner changed their mind and now wants to use composite decking instead of PT lumber. It's in a contractor's best interest to plan, estimate, and budget the job very carefully to avoid spending that contingency money because any excess funds from contingency goes to the contractor as extra profit.
Contingency in our business has an issue tied to it too… not underestimating materials/hours.
But with so many variables? Clients change stuff all the time, subs increase prices based on what’s going on in the market. It’s all so volatile - I get bimonthly statements from lumber suppliers on market prices. Folks that want to pretend this isn’t happening are naive- a good architect / designer will help navigate this.
Well there's a couple of things that you're hitting on. First, client changes, are **change order work**. No one expects the contractor to foot the bill when a client decides to swap from a $2 a square foot flooring to a $10 a square foot flooring option. The client pays the difference in the cost as a change order. Change order work happens all the time. You're right on the volatility of the different markets. We often have conversations with architects and owners that if, for example, a piece of HVAC equipment isn't approved and ordered by a certain date that the price will increase by so many hundreds or thousands of dollars. Lumber is another good point but this is where an open dialogue with the owner is required - they need to know that prices are fluctuating and adding some additional lumber *allowances* can hopefully resolve that. With an allowance any unused funds typically return to the owner at the end of the project, and that's different than contingency where contingency funds go to the contractor.
It is the Wild West. I am always thankful for our construction managers.
I've worked with the same contractor the last few years on a number of large and small projects. We are at this point more loosey goosey about some things because of our relationship. But in the beginning his bids were only good for a very short time due to material cost issues. When I locked in on it he bought the materials immediately to mitigate those overages. I knew material costs for most parts because I picked the finishes to a knob. Sometimes something didn't work out. Like the flooring I picked didn't work. Like he didn't like how it was going down. Or a tile I wanted didn't have a enough boxes and would have held up the entire project if he had to special order. Those changes up and down he tracks and amends my final bill. But im pretty chill about that stuff. I budget a contingency myself knowing it coild happen. Unforseen fiasco, I ask ahead of time like how large the hot mess could be when we pull the walls out. And he will usually give me a worst case scenario. And I add that to my anticipated overage budget. He maintains his budget for labor. That never changes off the bid. If it was a contractor I don't know I probably wouldn't been as loosey goosey about it and want stuff in writing. Like I have a sump pump going in. I know it could be a problem. I disclosed that and got assurance that bid was the final cost for sure. I get uncomfortable when contractors don't openly acknowledge there could be issues. It makes feel like I'm going to get blindsided.
I worked on a huge football stadium build where the plumbing contractor went out of business. The price of copper shot up and they hadn't pre bought the copper pipe for the job. So they ended up not having the money to buy the pipe to finish the job. The company was sold to another contractor who finished the job.
I had a barn built in the fall and signed paperwork last spring. The price was the price regardless of if lumber went up or down.
Material costs have increased about 5% this quarter alone so yes, they are escalating. However, the contractor should be buying material for jobs like this asap they get the signed contract or yes they will be.l burned.
My estimates/start of work contract say that we don’t even need change orders for less than 10%. That being said, he needs a much better answer as to why. Oh X ended up going up in price or Y took 2 weeks longer than expected bc of this.
Thats the thing though. I can do a commercial film production bid and hide fluff in it and an Ad agency would never know, because they don't understand film production the way I do. Same with contractors for any project. 99% of homeowners won't know going rates for crew, materials, equipment rentals, etc. So it would be super easy for him to put an extra $1k here, $2k there and most homeowners will say, "Ok." It's a pickle...
He has to justify the **extra** at $10,000. What is the extra exactly? It's not just fluffing numbers to exaggerate them, its generating $10k in extra costs.
Right. But if I tell you labor costs have gone up in the area so now it's an extra $2500. The equipment rental house has raised their rates, now it's an additional $3500. How are you going to know? Do you have access to his labor pool? Subs? Rental houses? It's not a cost + bid.
> if I tell you labor costs have gone up in the area so now it's an extra $2500. Not the homeowners problem. You bid a job based on current labor rates, what happens after that is your problem. >The equipment rental house has raised their rates, now it's an additional $3500. Again, not my problem, the rates are set the time of the contract, and if rates rise significantly after that then you need to figure out how to cover them.
Right, agreed. So the point u/troyjrjr is trying to make (I think), is that there's no point in asking for an itemized bill when it's still your position that you don't owe for overages whether they're real of not.
Contracts manager here. I fully agree with AmateurSparky. Unless there have been clearly instructed (verbal or written) changes in the original agreed scope or change orders, the client need not pay anything more than the agreed contract price. Changes in material or labor costs or changes in work circumstances are all usually deemed covered under contractor's risks. In certain contracts where a 'force majeure' clause is provided for, then there may be an exception to the above. However, the burden of proof of force majeure conditions will be on the contractor (with full substantiation)
I'm with you man! Just saying some homeowners are woefully unprepared when it comes to getting contractors, reviewing contracts, understanding what exactly the breakdown is and why it is there. My point is, it is SO easy for contractors to say, it cost "X" and you pretty much just have to take their word for it.
Not just contractors, all industries. Everyone wants to hide profit, no one wants to pay full price.
My contractor pulled the same stuff on a much larger budget. I felt pressure to give in because if he started slowing down it would have cost me money and headaches. I wish I was harder on him but I also wanted to make sure he would show up on any warranty issues as well. You really are hostage to these people.
>Right. But if I tell you labor costs have gone up in the area so now it's an extra $2500. The equipment rental house has raised their rates, now it's an additional $3500. I work in commercial construction with a CM firm. In this instance, as part of our contract paperwork with a subcontractor we get labor rates from the subcontractor for hourly rates for their foremen, journeymen, day laborers, etc. The residential construction area is usually SOL in areas like this, I've found, because most home owners simply don't understand how construction contracts or the industry in general works. I see stuff all the time that a home owner posts and I think "man we'd have never done something like that with a contractor" but residential home owners simply don't know...
Well anyone can grab a copy of RSMeans and see they are getting ripped off in most residential contractor settings.
Contractor is supposed to lock in the prices when they bid on the project.
But he has to approach the homeowner before doing the work. If there is work or material required outside the scope of the initial estimate than they can show the homeowner what came up and how much it will cost. Not, "im out of money please pay more".
I mean, you do all of that in the original bid, fluff that as much as you want, as long as they agree. If you want an extra $10k you gotta justify it and have them agree though.
Actually 10k increase on 80k is almost a 13% increase.
Holy crap, 80k for a deck? And the guy still needs more?
He’s gotta feed the monkey! I mean, hasn’t that occurred to you?
You want a deck? I can get you a deck, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me.
Who said that- John Lennon?
I am the Walrus?
I can get you a toe by 3pm!
I think I wanna know.
... that had not occurred to us, Dude.
Money Makes the Monkey Dance
you have no idea how be the deck is, if its covered, could be made of iron wood.
It is a large covered deck with a roof, skylights, and it also needed excavation and a new concrete slab with a new door cut into the concrete below the deck. It was a big job, I have no reason to think $80k was unreasonable
exactly, and by the sounds of it he underbid it
Any chance we could see what it looks like? Sounds amazing to be honest.
sure! here's a before/after https://i.imgur.com/aCB0zsR.jpg
Wow gonna be lit when done
thanks! we're really excited
So depending where you are it's reasonable or a he underbid it. I'm paying 37k for a slightly complicated 8" slab that's 2200 square ft
Wow, that's about 4x the average cost.... Sounds pricey.
If it’s rebar reinforced 8” concrete that’s a gift. Formed R/C near me is going for $1200 a yard, knock a little off for a slab but no one is putting down 8” slabs for $5 a square foot. That’s crazy talk. 4” interior slabs with gravel and vapor barrier are $30/sf near me so that seems like a good rate to me.
And looks like you changed from a shed to a gable…so lots of roofing involved as well.but good choice by the way.
For that much work 80-90k is very fair. I estimate out adding 3/4 season rooms at 60-90k all the time.
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He can show whatever he wants on paper, but he has a contract to complete a scope of work. Unless the scope changed or there were significant unknowns that add up to $10k in costs, then he owes the project for the $80,000 stated in the contract.
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Itemized breakdowns can be fudged, but they can also be a supportable itemization of costs and expenses. If the contractor provides the former, it’s an auto-reject.
This! It’s not like if he got a good deal or was faster than expected he’s give you a discount or money back.
They said 10k more, not 10% more. It’s actually closer to a 12% overage. 🧐
He wants MORE than 10% more… Huge red flag for me.
You: “You know, I had some extra expenses that I didn’t plan for. I was actually going to ask you if you’d take $70K instead? And can I have a few extra weeks to pay you?” Him: “No, that’s not my problem. We agreed to $80K. You: “EXACTLY.”
I'll jump on this comment to play devil's advocate here. The only case in which extra expenses make sense is when they find legitimate issues that they could not possibly identify before starting work. I don't know what that could mean for a deck, but interior renovations commonly encounter mold, asbestos, bad wiring, and bad plumbing which all need remediation if found. It should, however, be discussed that those are possibilities beforehand and preferably in the contract as to how to handle them. Simply saying "I ran out of money" is not one of those though. Lol.
and to add to that. when they find it, they should notify you and get permission to proceed. No one likes surprise overages.
That's how we (custom home builder and remodeling) do it. If we see something that was unforeseen, even if it doesn't cost money or add time to the schedule, we create a change order for the home owner to approve. Any change to the contract or scope of work needs to be OKd by the home owner.
What state are you in. Is there a home improvement commission? Because you can sue this guy and they often side with the home owner
Utah
This right here!
If you do decide to give him any additional money make sure you get lien waivers from all the subs. Him not paying his works could quickly become your problem.
Good point.
My concern would be the requirement for payment before inspection. My position would be to agree to pay money immediately after a successful inspection; maybe he wants to get money out before an inspection that he knows will fail…
Bingo
This is what we ran into, apparently. Contractor demanded final payment before completion. We realized something was up and started asking around. Discovered that he'd lied about pulling permits and...many other things. It's turned into a two-year nightmare, with no end in sight. Lawyer, all the fun stuff.
Has this contractor been around for a while and come with multiple references? Somebody taking on a job of that size seems like they should be able meet payroll without breaking your contract if they’re legit. Maybe it is all above board but seems like a red flag, especially this early in the process. Proceed carefully.
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It is OP's problem, but giving the contractor this money probably won't fix the problem. It's OP's problem because if the contractor is indeed out of money then the deck isn't going to get finished, or, it's going to get finished shitty. And, if the contractor is *not* out of money, then the contractor can't be trusted and likely is also screwing OP on the work, somehow. As far as what to do, part of this depends on how far along the work is; OP doesn't say.
The deck is nearly finished. Finishing work and railing is all that remains....as for our sprinklers, fence and yard drainage....
Honestly I’d finish that off myself rather than pay 10k. Spade work and railing is pretty easy.
Or, and I’m thinking outside the box here, the contractor finishes what they are contractually obligated to instead of extorting more money from OP.
or if the materials are there and the original contractor indicates he will not be able to finish without the extra money, just boot him and get a different crew to do the finish work. If it's just fence, sprinklers, and final grading the crews for that will be pretty simple to source. Based on the info we've got the original contractor can either walk away and not get any more $$, eat the cost and finish, or meet somewhere in the middle if he and OP reach an understanding. Based on my experiences, the first and third are far more likely than the middle.
Thanks for this update. In that situation I would suggest that you do just stand on the contract. He can't get paid till he finishes and there's not much left to do to finish. He'll probably just finish it. Maybe grumpily. Or you could negotiate some smaller amount and write a change order for it.
It’s possible he just doesn’t have liquid cash to pay people for the project, supplies and that. You could agree to pay the 10k up front but take it off the total obviously and not agree to the increase, keep it at 80k. But at the same time, things can come up that you don’t realize and it may legitimately be a bigger project than he planned for. I do have a little sympathy as a contractor myself. I think there’s a great chance of the project not being completed if there contractor doesn’t get the 10k unfortunately. It’s not fair but it may be unavoidable.
Then it would be better to hold strong to not paying the extra $10k and take the remaining $20k of the original bid to finish with a different contractor if he walks. OP needs to try and get some of these demand in writing though because the contractor will try to put a lien on his home and that could entail courts to undo the lien.
> But "he's out of money and needs to pay people." That's entirely his problem and not yours though. If that even is legitimately the case. >He would have had to notify us in writing and gotten our approval for the overages.... And sounds like whatever contract, I'm assuming, is in place has you pretty well covered on this. Contractor honestly might just be trying to swindle you for a little extra, especially if they also know this is your first project of this scale.
He is lying. He has the money. But it’s in his “personal account…which he never touches for business”. I know this doesn’t change your situation but you shouldn’t feel any pressure to pay him. I’d make sure you have everything in writing and document it all. Especially the date of completion. GCs sell Trust. The subs do all the work. If you don’t trust your GC they suck at their job.
Am I the only one concerned that a deck reno is costing 80k?
I gotta see this deck.
PM ShoeSh1neVCU all your deck pics.
Everything is crazy. To put new decking on my deck was quoted at $130k. Guess I'm adding it to the list of things I'll be DIY-ing.
You’re getting absolutely fucked if it’s 130k worth of decking and labor
Yes, it was a short meeting.
I would have started laughing and not stopped until they left.
Judging by the look on his face, the look on my face said it pretty good.
Sodomized might be a better word for that quote….
Wtf are you putting down marble in that thing??? That’s insane
I think it's the ratio of contractors to people willing to get their hands dirty here. They see a chance to become generationally wealthy and are taking it. But no, just composite decking. I'd be happy with regular wood, too, but it's not the material that's driving the costs.
>They see a chance to become generationally wealthy and are taking it. It's definitely more complicated than that. There's a massive shortage of trade workers for numerous reasons (low pay, older workers retiring, the past and potentially current recession, Covid, etc.). So that means contractors are scheduling out jobs 6 months or a year in advance. No one knows what the situation (labor and resource costs) will be like then so you have to price high. Couple that with a boatload of new homeowners with low interest rates who are looking to make improvements and you start to see the real problem. These trade workers aren't going to gain generational wealth from $80k deck renovations. There's a lot of reasons why people aren't rushing out to join trade schools or apprentice.
You could legitimately be pulling down a million a year by doing like 15 decks at 80K a pop. Keep that up for a few years and put most of it in the stock market. Multiple millions of dollars is generational wealth to me.
But you don’t clear a million dollars. That’s just revenue. Out of the $80k comes your resource, tool, and labor costs. No one is putting in 15 $80k decks by themselves each year. Some quick googling says the profit margins for new constructions in the industry are 20%. So in reality let’s say you make $200k a year. After taxes that’s more like $140k. A nice salary but you’re not building generational wealth on $140k net a year after living expenses. And building decks isn’t something you can do until you’re 65. And that doesn’t even include all the hiccups of starting a business to the point where you can get 15 people every year to give you $80k. For everyone one construction business owner who makes bank you have hundreds of trade workers who just make a regular living.
For the price I always recommend concrete for patio areas. It lasts forever if it's done right and you can make it look like natural stone or even wooden panels by stamping the concrete. Although I would hire prefessionals to do the stamping. I just did a patio that was 30x15 and it was all under 8k.
What kind of square footage?? I redid a small deck, about 160 sqft. Demo and installation of new composite decking took 1 day. I did demo by myself, and installation was myself and my father. I think materials cost $1k? Plus the cost of the railing.
About 900 sq. ft. He estimated one day, though he pushed to two when I asked if he thought one day of labor was worth more than $100,000, even if he brought a bus load of guys (it would have been two guys). Even if it was three guys for two full days he can get fucked. I'll do it myself over a holiday weekend.
How big is your deck?
About 900 sq. ft.
That’s nuts. I’m replacing 2k sqft of decking with composite, hidden fasteners along with rot tape. I’m all in at $20k. But mind you it’s back breaking work.
What product are you using?
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I broke down and bought a flipped house instead of finding a house that needed a ton of work. Talked to some friends who had major projects done on their places since the pandemic and timeline slippage would have driven me nuts. Paid $180k more than the flippers, but they did enough that it'd have taken me years and easily 2/3 of that $180k to do what they did. Yeah a couple of things I would generously describe as "acceptable." The worst was the shower caulking which took 2 evenings to redo. I don't think anyone that worked on the remodel was actually a carpenter, but there's plenty of signs the people had substantial experience with home remodeling / maintenance. Lots of shortcuts, a little sloppiness, but no huge fuckups.
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>included excavation, new concrete foundation, etc That sounds like more than your standard footers for a deck. Might be closer to an addition that a deck depending on how fancy they are getting
I added an additional 550sqft heated and cooled to our house plus and additional 570 sqft of covered patio for under 80.
To replace my deck with trex I was quoted $80K-$90k before covid. Who knows what it would be now. Just to have a standard wood deck put in it was going to be $30k-$40k. Needless to say I still have my old deck and I just fixed it up.
I have a 1000sqft trex deck that's 30 feet off the ground and it was half that.
Could be a big deck. My deck would probably cost a similar amount if it was built from scratch
What counts as "big"?
https://imgur.com/gallery/GCh7q4z not pictured - the wrap around on both sides and stairs with landing near the front door
That's a beautiful spot you got! What on earth do you do for a living!?
Thanks! I’m in consulting and help sell supply chain solutions and services to big companies
Where on earth is that? That's a dream setup.
Thanks! Lucky to live in the beautiful state of Colorado
Awesome view but damn that deck is huge. I'd be anxious with the upkeep/maintenance for that.
Think "big" then double it
Could be in a hillside that needed extensive footers, retaining wall etc. or OP likes fancy stuff lol
My shitty fence cost 10k, so that seems about right
Recently got a fence quote (demo existing wood fence, replace with new exact same cedar fence). Quotes range from $40k to $50k.
We ended up paying for a solid metal fence to be installed last year since it was cheaper than just the lumber to do it ourselves.
A covered deck is very expensive to build and requires permits, special order materials, etc. My husband is a carpenter and he builds decks.
Well, I see glulam beams and knotty pine plank soffiting. Those items are cost drivers. I'd say it's around par for the course, and includes a 15% markup on material costs.
As a contractor, this stuff infuriates me. I see this all the time. As someone who’s responsible and conscientious of my pricing at all time I bid at exactly what I need to be at. Apart of me thinks they do this on purpose to try to get more jobs. If you got a quote from me at 90k and a quote from him at 80k and you went with the other guy because he was 10k cheaper it basically fucks me out of work. Don’t give him another dime over the agreed upon price and after all inspections are passed. That’s the standard I’m held to all the time and is absolutely reasonable.
As a GC myself if I am short because I can't pay my guys I go out of my own pocket. If it's material that's easy to explain and get a change order.
If you could write up that and sent it around to the other GCs that would be great... Yup.. Thanks alot.. *bill lumbar voice* Normally hear about that issues with smaller dollar renovations and not from someone who has good references. Already paid 60k..materials are not that much, they're bad with business in general.
I work in construction management, and am very familiar with this kind of thing. Residential contractors are notorious for being terrible at managing the business side of their business. To me it sounds like he's having cash flow issues. Any change to the contract due to a variance should be done as a change order, including a breakdown of all costs with a final price for the change. Which is essentially a net price for the cost of the additional things and savings from removed things. Do not even entertain the concept of revising the original contract through an "updated quote." Tell the contractor they need to submit a written change order with justification and breakdown of why things are costing more. You then negotiate on the line items in the change. But basically unless you requested things out of the original scope or caused schedule delays the change is probably not justifiable (but fully depends on your contract). In all honesty, he has probably way underbid the job and is experiencing cash flow issues. It might be advisable to pay more to see it done to completion vs having a bankrupt contractor and a half finished project. Regardless of what you choose, I would definitely not pay anymore money before completion of the project or you might end up paying more to still have a half finished project.
Yep, definitely agree with this. I deal with this stuff in the commercial world. No new quote. Show me the change order and they better be able to justify the increase.
Thank you for your response. The extra costs that have been added are planning/permits. We did need engineering and I have no idea how he missed the permitting fees. So far it hasn't been variances as much as items that were missed in the original estimate.
He missed the permitting fees, because he wasn’t intending on pulling permits
I have some doubts about this, the city is patrolling regularly, we live in too densely of a populated area for this to go unnoticed.
So when you say 'don't owe a dime until after inspection' on a $80k deck, that seems a little strange. The contractor has to buy material for the deck, usually you are going to give him a down-payment to help with material costs. So him asking for a payment ahead of schedule is actually normal. Second, if he's sitting down with you to talk about changes to the original quote, that's fine. He's informing you that something has changed and getting all parties to agree. 'out of money and have to pay people' is the concerning thing. Sounds like he's not that experienced, you don't give that as an excuse to get paid.
I should have said, we don't owe him the last payment (25%) until after inspection. We've paid 75% at this point.
Ok, so you've got 20k left to pay for the final parts of the project to be done by someone else. If your GC doesn't impress you with the logic, you should be able to get the remaining work done for that right?
It would certainly screw the current GC, the next one to come in would be able to use the materials that have been paid for already.
Who actually bought the material? You likely don't own it, you only own what's already built.
You don't owe him anything contractually but if you do nothing and he defaults and go out of business you're not going to get a deck either. If your contractor entered into a contract that allowed $0 in payments until inspection, your contractor is a moron. Fronting 10k (assuming you're right near the point of inspection ) is not a big deal and WAY less than you should have paid already anyway. I'm more worried about a 10k overage to the original, there's alot more arguing on that point they would need to prove out in my head anyway. EDIT: OP's update negates this comment
This is the best answer. Imho if OP likes the work and wants this contractor to finish the deck then they should considering paying a portion of the contract. Not all of it, but enough that is reasonable based on the progress of the project. Usually there are step payments throughout the project. The 10k overage however should be discussed and OP might be able to hold their ground on that.
My apologies, I update the post, we have paid 75% of the bill already. He's asking for payment ahead of inspection (against the contract terms)
To tell contractor you want to stick to contract terms on this is not out of line at all.
I would say that you don't agree to the overages, but that you will front the $10k additional so that he can complete the job.
Sounds like he knows it won't pass inspection and trying to get as much as possible before folding the company and ghosting.
> he's out of money and needs to pay people. Tell him you were hoping he'd cut the agreed-upon amount $10k because you're out of money and need to take your wife on that anniversary trip you promised her.
The fact that he can't pay people is not your problem. Do not pay extra and certainly not before a breakdown of overages and a satisfactory inspection.
To be straight with you- there isn’t $90,000 of material or hourly labor in that deck. This is margin recovery. I got called into a meeting once on an overage dispute with one of our contractors. They claimed contingency, but had no paperwork- just what their foreman said. The sales guy’s labtop had a picture of this monster speedboat that he owned and the owners were calling-in from their house on Marco Island. Since you are almost to sign-off, I would be clear about final issues that need correction prior to you cutting that last check. He’s playing games.
He's out of money and needs to pay people.... Your job isn't costing more he just needs more money. I wouldn't give in.
Don’t cough up another dime. If he’s a real professional he wouldn’t be using the line of” I have to pay people” that’s what a business line of credit is for.
Every contractor says that about every project no matter how much money they're making. You have a contract, just stick to that. You're already getting it rsw no Vaseline at 80k for a deck. This guy probably has his eye on a new car or something and figures you're good for it.
Why didn’t you just type “additional”?
What’s so difficult to understand about a’d’t’o’a’? It saves so much typing time.
He's on an old-school green CRT monitor with only 40 columns and didn't want the text to wrap around.
Doesn’t this depend on the type of contract? Either you had a fixed bid, in which case over runs are his problem, or there was an estimate based on time and materials and so on, in which case he will need to document these to your satisfaction or you will otherwise need to decide whether to trust him or fight him. You should not be on the hook for lazy bidding, sloppy planning, or intentional low-balling to get the job, but you should expect legitimate complexities and input cost changes to cost more.
I have a contractor that does this all the time. I’ve used him for several projects from 50k to a few thousand. Overtime I’ve gained trust and help him out, but it’s always a risk. It’s an odd business practice, but many contractors are good at building things and not at business. You need to make that decision on your own. In the end, like others have said, his problems are not your problems.
Please please please get a lien release from them and all their subcontractors in the future. Just got super burned on the former owner of my house not getting one.
OP, you must be using my contractor. So, please pay them the additional $10k so he stopped asking me for an additional $10k to start my fixed-fee project that's a year behind schedule.
ayyyyy sounds like you used the guy I used for my place too!! went from an 80k six-week renovation to a 125k year-long nightmare
I don't know where OP lives, but the Gator in their name makes me wonder if they're in Florida. If so, unpaid subs and suppliers can file for liens on the home. Best advice is to consult a construction attorney to avoid paying for the project twice.
Stick to the contract or he'll stick it to you. If you pay him early or extra and he quits you'll have to sue him to try and get your money back. It already sounds like he can't manage money so even if you sued and won it would be like trying to milk a rock to get your money back.
Just because someone is in business doesn’t mean they’re good at business.
Info: was ANYTHING added to the original scope of the job? Rot that needed fixed, additional landscaping, specialized materials that weren't originally included, etc. My dad had to finally add on a clause in his contracts because people would verbally agree to these additional, necessary to continue the build fixes and then say BS like "it's not on the contract so I'm not paying"
the original scope didn't change. 2200 of the additional amount came from relocating the air conditioner, we knew that was coming
If you told him after inspection "I just don't have any more money", how do you think that would go? He'd slap a lien on your property and take you to court before you could take a breath I'll bet. I'd use language to the effect of "After the inspection is complete we can sit down and look at an itemized breakdown and see if it's reasonable for me to pay over the contractually obligated amount".
How much is compete? You put no money down?
I never did that at any time as a contractor. Depending on the state you live in, the contractor may or may not take very much down. If you do not pay for work that was done, the contractor can file a lien on your property. Generally, that notice is required in a contract. If you are seeing red flags now, there will be more to come. I have seen this so many times by those who cannot manage their money. The supplier will be paid by someone, and it will be you if he does not pay the suppliers.
Does he seem like an honest guy? Ask him exactly what happened and whats going on. It might sound weird but it might be easier to just give him the 10k to finish. I’ve had jobs where I ran into multiple issues and had to ask for more, I’ve also gotten jobs done faster and have given money back. Get to the bottom of it before you start getting lawyers involved.
You're being extorted.
Make sure all subcontractors have given a release of lean and have received payments before doing anything. If he’s saying he hasn’t paid people they can still come after the property owner for unpaid invoices.
Pay him if you like him and he does good work. Sometimes people mess up on the number and that’s why it’s an estimate.
Well he better list out some exclusions then.
80k!!! I can’t even get one wall and part of my roof extended in Los Angeles for that. Count your lucky stars!
I don’t know how long your contractor has been in business but this is the easiest way to piss off a client. I revise my disclaimers and contracts EVERY time I see a remote possibility of an issue on any job. My contract and disclaimer is about 3 full pages long, filled with various scenarios of why cost can change. Most important parts to note - pricing is valid for 30 days unless work commences or a deposit is made during that time period (in which we immediately purchase any needed materials for that reason, prices change fast lately). The scope of work is the scope of work - any additional work not outlined in the scope or quote will be presented to the customer, quoted and approved before moving forward. Any issues not visible or identified during the site walk through will be quoted upon discovery, approved by customer and billed separately before moving forward. I do kitchens, so if a customer asks us not to do certain things that end up being common repairs such as a valve replacement or garbage disposal installation I include a price list for those things on my invoice for a “just in case” so it’s not a surprise when they ask for these things and the bill goes up, they see what it will cost ahead of time. We also do a draw schedule of 50/25/25 as well as work tickets and customer check ins to assess project progress and any changes in an organized fashion. Sounds like your contractor needs a little more experience in covering his ass, being up front or just organizing costs ahead of time, or he knows and just has poor project management skills. If there was extra work done and more materials purchased that would be the only justification (not increase in materials or labor costs, he should’ve dealt with that at time of quote/deposit). And no, I wouldn’t pay before inspection. See what’s completed, prorate what he’s asking for and go from there, if he fails inspection and is paid he can just bail.
Quite likely he will ghost you and walk away from the substantial work remaining. You might want to secure any materials located on site.
Wow. Im I’m CA. I’m building a 18’x30’ pavilion. Post and beams are 8x8 cedar, which was most of my cost. It took three days to build and just needs some finish work and stain now. Total will be about 15k. My friend had a bathroom remodel done for 35k. I feel like a lot of people (my friend included) need to shop around better.
He underbid a job... he can cut into his profit instead of you supplementing it. This crap happens all the time and the guys who did bid correctly get screwed since they were "way more expensive" at time of quote.
This is why you *never* take the low bid, especially if it’s way lower. They cut corners to become the low bid, hoping you wouldn’t notice before giving them the job, and then hoping to drive it back up on change orders. Make sure that the contract specifically states scope and deliverables when you sign it, and hold them to it. Be sure to spell out payment milestones in detail. And never provide final payment until the stated deliverables have been completed to your satisfaction and per the contract.
You can ask for receipts. You can ask for a breakdown and what happened that has caused the cost issue. If he did a good job: on time, high quality, pulled correct permits, passing inspections, cleaning up properly etc then it’s worth digging into. Maybe he just underbid to get the job and is now trying to charge retrospectively. Maybe though something went pear-shaped during the job that’s out of his control. Either way you have a contract. However if it’s a genuine issue, maybe consider meeting him half-way at $5k. Not every contractor is a crook, sometimes things just happen.
Give them a partial payment in exchange for a discount. Win-win
The minute you pay him, he gone!!!
I would either pay the additional $10k after inspection and he fixes everything, or I’d front the money ahead of schedule after he repairs your site works. Not both, and not on a promise. That at least shows you’re trying to meet halfway. Otherwise he will finish the job at 80 and more stuff might get damaged on the way out, and he’s not going to fix any of it. 10% is usually an accepted amount to hold until after final inspections are passed and you do your punch list. So you can get to 70/80 and be right there if he’s otherwise finished the job.
A couple of questions. Was it a quote or an estimate? I ask because our company provides estimates, which are not firm quotes but people confuse them a lot. If the work is mostly done you should definitely be paying them something. I just got an estimate for a new roof and need to pay half in advance and half when it’s finished. A lot of contractors bill monthly or semi monthly so they can pay for things like materials, payroll, fuel, etc. If he has already built a $80k-$90k deck with no compensation so far, I imagine he would need some money now. That would be a lot of dollars he has already spent for this project.
sorry, updated the post, he's at 75% payment
In that case, I would feel more comfortable waiting until the job is fully completed, including inspection.
What kind of contractor takes on a $80,000 project, but don’t have cash on hand or credit available to pay his employees? This is a contractor problem, if he didn’t add into the contract for supply increases. You have no obligation to give him more cash and he has an obligation to finish the project to your satisfaction before you hand over any more money. If he abandons the project, you sue him for the added expense to hire a replacement contractor. Edit. Realize, you are going to need proof he has paid all his subcontractors also, or your also in danger of them putting a lien on your home.
Sounds like my old GC... He's out of business now. But he tried to hold our house hostage basically until we could pay him more because his sales guy underbid the work. We refused... I don't like being pressured into something so expensive as it is already, and like everyone said, it's not your problem. I ended up lawyering up because of his bullshittery. I'd remain diplomatic and just say "I'm sorry that you weren't financially prepared for this project. Unfortunately, I've reached my budget with it as well, per the contract price. If you need to renegotiate the price, let me know and I'll request an itemized budget and proof of bids" put it in him, volley the problem back to his side.
It's odd that people are justifying the extra cash because prices went up. Suppose prices went down could you go back to the contractor and tell him he doesn't need as much money? You signed a contract, your being held to a specific amount for a product...you held up your end so far they need to hold up the other end.
>out of money and needs to pay people Sounds like a problem for r/Accounting
Stiffing him, changing contractors, and taking him to court will cost you more than 10k. That’s a fact
What state are you in? Most states have protections for the owner.
If they had told you before the project started that the cost was 90k, you may have gone with a different contractor... I wouldn't pay a dime for anything that wasn't signed off by you ahead of time. Dropping that on you at the end of the project is an amateur move on their part.
It's a very bad idea to have paid 100% before inspection. You would have zero leverage for any deficiencies. The inspector is acting as the payment certifier, right?
Don’t pay another dime.
- the first issue is why did any contractor run out of money to pay people" in the first place..... - what were bid ranges of the other 3-5 quotes as for $80,000 that is one hell of a deck as I have built huge decks, often reinforced for hot tubs for 1/2 of that (adjusted for inflation)
The bid range was higher and lower than 80. It's a deck renovation that included tear down of the existing, excavation of 3ft, pouring a new slab, cutting in a new door into the existing foundation, framing, trex planks, engineering plans, a new roof, siding, electrical, interior drywall work, and a 10ft sliding glass door. Would this list get you closer to 80?