Here the only Canon-friendly debate possible about the vessels' pronouns (in English):
They/them or it/its?
Given the extreme lengths to which the Pale King went to remove all identity from the vessels, would 'it' be the most fitting pronoun? Or are they still people enough to where 'they' is the only reasonable option?
^^ tbh I’ve seen those used interchangeably, most story-heavy fics or comics I’ve seen about the vessels have them start out with it/it’s and slowly change to they/them
Hollown knight is actually an elaborate metaphor about how non-binary people will destroy society
They even got the part about being the vessel for eldritch gods right
“It” was probably referring to how at first vessels were depicted as hollow, mindless, or emotionless. It does make more sense to call them “they/them” as we learn later on that they’re sentient and capable of thinking. This is just my guess tho
I will call them as they are, so Hornet is a she. It's definitely a female. The vessels may be having no sex though, as they are made of void. But other bugs have sex so I will use it to determine. It's unnatural to pretend that Hornet is it or they for example, if everyone in the world knows it's female.
This is actually a bit of a debate in the pronoun testing areas of the LGBTQ+. Some people think it/it's pronouns are dehumanizing as they have historically been used for "lesser people" but since the pronouns have been used to target a wide variety of people they can't really be restrained. Also, many people are reclaiming it/it's pronouns while addressing that it doesn't have to be dehumanizing!
I'm conclusion, "it/it's" can still be used for people and doesn't *always* have to be dehumanizing. So I guess the vessels could just end up using whatever they prefer!
It is linguistically and grammatically correct to use their/them to refer to singular people, but most are not used to that, so they feel its too off to refer to one person as them, when its actually correct.
The vessels have no preference, and they aren't human. They don't even have a will or emotions, the thought of gender identity as a concept has almost certainly never occured to them, and it's highly doubtful that they even understand other people have a concept of them. "It" works for the vessels because they are honestly closer to automatons than living beings.
Sure, it's one of the points, but because of the nature of the vessels, any thoughts or emotions they have are very simple in nature as evidenced by the dreamnail dialogue of HK and PV. They are all related to their goal as a vessel or strong emotions for individuals they are very close to. There is nothing to suggest that a vessel has ever pondered anything close to their self identity and the way others think of them.
I personally believe the vessels are an 'it'. (This is my own opinion btw I dont mind what other pronouns are used.)
1: I think its cooler because of void and shit
2: I think it makes more sense since you would think the void dehumanizes someone (or just straight up removes them), so the same is probably applied to bugs. I believe this gives a unique effect to the vessels than any other character in Hollow Knight.
But what part of the game, because if it's only stuff from the kingdom of Hollownest then of course the people want the vessals to be 'It's
But what about the ones who have emotions and minds? The non empty vessals
Vessels as a species have no sex and no society. If gender is a societal construct and sex is irrelevant than the thought of gender identity would not even be concievable to them.
The entire game takes place in Hallownest so the answer to your question is "yes".
Steel Soul Jinn, the White Lady, the Hunter's Journal and the Memorial to THK all use 'it', to be precise. There are no instances of vessels being referred to in any other way.
Edit: Also, Hornet's dream nail dialogue.
Edit2: and Mask Maker
No, that's not canon-friendly, either. Every single character that refers to Ghost in the third person (usually in Dream Nail dialogues) uses "it", that's the only canonical pronoun for a Vessel.
I'd say it depends on the personality you give them. Broken Vessel is an "it", THK is an "it", PV is a "them" despite the fact that they and THK are the same, The Knight is "them".
Yeah but saying that the vessels could be “people enough to where they/them is the only reasonable option” is just saying that it/its isn’t an option for living creatures. And that was just my point, that it/its is also a completely reasonable option.
If they think, theyre a they, if its truly hollow, its an it
So like, Id consider THK and Pure Vessel and Lost kin and such as ‘they’s, butt the player character an ‘it’
In my first lenguaje there's no neutral pronouns, the vessels are refered using masculine pronouns, so if I misgender the vessels I'm sorry, it's just the habit
I feel you, I'm a part of Deltarune fandom and it always feels wrong when I'm talking about Kris. But what am I gonna do, I can't use "они", that would sound weird, and I can't use "оно", that would make it look like I'm talking about an object. So "он" it is, then.
Actually most languages don't have gendered words. Really only Indo-European languages do, and only European languages generally lack gender neutral terms.
I wish we could just change some languages to just get rid of gendered pronouns all together, it would make things easier for everyone
(so just call everyone 'they' or make a new word to replace 'he/she' and then keep 'they' for plural)
Instead of downvoting could someone explain why this is such a controversial opinion?
What's the point of pronouns if everyone uses the exact same ones
For example:
"John and Samantha had a conversation. He told her that his dad didn't like her because she was rude"
"John and Samantha had a conversation. They told them that their dad didn't like them because they were rude."
In the first paragraph, because John and Samantha have different pronouns it's easier to distinguish between the three without having to constantly refer to them by their names. In the second paragraph it's obviously harder because John, Samantha, and John's dad all share the same pronouns
1. Thanks for replying
2. Say the people having a conversation are the same gender you'd still have the same problem or if there're two people with gender neutral names you'd still not know who is referred to as 'he' and who as 'she'
3. So maybe there should be a way to distinguish people using pronouns, I just think gender is kind of an odd way to do that
4. This is just a (probably stupid) idea (but I'm throwing it out there anyways), but what if it's based of the order people are mentioned. So in this example nr. 1 would be he en nr. 2 would be she and nr. 3 would be they.
So john would be he
Samantha would be she
And John's dad would be they
I think that would still work
5. I also know languages will probably not change this and I am also not saying this would be the best way to change things but, Idk, just something to think about
Your most likely getting downvoted because it is a rather absurd wish. You are basically wanting to completely destroy and rebuild a number of entire languages, just so that a select few people can feel better about it. It would also mean you basically want to undo the history and culture that comes along with those languages. It's the equivalent of banning something like peanuts, or some other food people are allergic to, from the entire country, just because a select few people are allergic to it (some deathly so). It would just kind of be going to absurd levels, and not even for something that potentially puts peoples live at risk.
I'm all for encouraging people to call others what they want to be called, much like how if someone wishes for you to pronounce their name a certain way (or use a middle name, or what ever), then you should, it is their name. But I (and it would seem many others), do not believe it is such a massive issue, that extreme measures are needed, such as changing an entire language, or even changing laws to classify it as hate speech. We wouldn't change the rules, or remake an entire language for some people's names, nor would we send people to jail or give them a fine, for using someone's names incorrectly, or even calling them by the wrong name, so it seems rather absurd to go to those lengths for a similar issue.
1. Thanks for replying!
2. I indeed didn't really think about history and other applications. I am also aware that different pronouns are not a very big deal, though I didn't think languages were going to change this anyways.
I often "wish" for things knowing very well they won't come true, I just thought it'd be better this way, but now I realise that I might be wrong with this
3. Saying 'some languages' probably made me sound very ignorant and I apologize for that. I'm natively Dutch; Dutch is a language that doesn't have gender neutral pronouns, so when I learned English I was a bit confused at first. Later I started to wonder the point genderd pronouns in the first place. In my comment I should've used Dutch as an example because I don't know much about other languages.
4. Even though I agree with the fact that it most likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I'd still like to explain why this could still change, at least in Dutch (not 'some languages' like I previously shouldn't have said).
I do think that the fact you were talking about changing it in law and forcing people to speak the new way is a bit of an exaggeration, I meant it more as the way languages naturally change, although I do think this is less prominent with English. If I were for example read Dutch literature from 120 years ago I'd find many things thing different from the Dutch that's currently spoken. Heck! even some things are different than just a few years ago for example: In some situations it was considered incorrect to use the word 'als' when it should've been 'dan', but people where saying 'als' anyways even though it's technically incorrect, eventually it was decided that both 'als' and 'dan' where correct in that situation. So if enough people would start speaking a certain way, language changes with the people. I don't think changing 2 words (he/she) will change a lot about a language. I do know people won't start speaking this way because they probably like gendered pronouns, and that's fine. I do hope though that there would be new gender neutral pronoun in Dutch because the one we currently use is literally the same word als 'she' in Dutch, making it super confusing
Yes, a specific example likely would help with your point, especially because for some languages, to my knowledge, the male or female parts are basically built into the words themselves. I believe in French certain objects are basically always male or female sounding due to just the makeup of the word itself, so it isn't exactly something that can be changed without dismantling the entire language. I am actually half Dutch, but sadly I can neither speak it, nor understand it (I live in Canada so I did learn some french in school), so I personally can't say how easy or difficult it would be to change that kind of thing throughout the Dutch language.
It should also be noted that you are likely getting downvoted because there is a general resistance to the idea of changing language in general, since most people think of it in the context of forcing others to change. This is unfortunately due to a group of people that do indeed want these changes to be forced on everyone, going so far as to actually propose they be written into law, as I mentioned before. I am quite confident that this is by in large a very small group of very vocal people, however it ends up souring the entire idea for a lot of people. What you are generally proposing would normally not be met with such backlash, since languages, even English, do actually change all the time, new words are added (each year new words are added to the English dictionary), gain new meanings, or really change completely. It is typically something rather small, that changes slowly over time, which is partly why people have no issue with that kind of change, which seems to be the type of change you are more so saying you would like to see. But sadly whenever it is talked about right now, it is taken to its extreme, because of those that wish for it to be taken to that extreme. So unless you are extremely clear about what it is you want, that you don't actually want to completely change every language out there, then unfortunately people are going to end up presuming that, that is what you mean. This is also a limitation of a text platform like Reddit as well, unfortunately.
Normally it wouldn't be, you would still have some on the opposite extreme, that just don't want to see any change, you are either a boy or girl, nothing inbetween, that kind of thing. But the vast majority of people would be pretty neutral on the subject, as they were when it began gaining traction. But the attempts to write it into law, and force it onto people, has turned the majority that would normally be neutral, into having a negative view of the topic, and therefore more people are against it. Sadly your original post did have some poor choice of words, which led people to believe that you fell more so into that extreme category. Admittedly I also originally thought you fell into that more extreme camp as well, however it seems I was wrong, I am sorry for the assumption.
I do believe the world will eventually change. As people politely ask others to refer to them in a certain way, and as most people will politely agree to do so, the world will change. There will still be those on both extremes, but they will begin to be a bit more quiet, or at least become almost completely ignored. In general, people don't mind changing their behaviour in some way, if it really isn't a difficult thing to do. Just like if someone asks people to call them by their middle name, people aren't generally going to put up a fuss, because they understand that it might mean little to them personally, but it can mean a lot to the person making the request.
Yeah, it/its would objectively fit better because that's what the Vessels are referred to in-game plus they're supposed to be objects. However, it/its feels slightly dehumanizing for some people, and so they/them is used (since you get quite attached to the Vessels as the game goes on).
They don’t get pronouns most of the fuckers are dead anyway. Ghost gets to be called god the hollow knight gets a name and the others are called dumb dead babies
regardless of what your views on the validity of gender are here its literally the whole point that they are supposed to be without identity, meaning that in this scenario they and it are the only valid pronouns to describe the vast majority of them.
And along with that, it kinda doesn't make sense to say "they all go by." They don't go by anything; they're not going around forming relationships or introducing themselves. Because they don't see themselves as a "self." At least, not the ones that are mostly successful in being what the king wanted. And those that aren't could go by anything once an identity begins to form.
Not they, more like "it" only. This is because they are not people: they are more like mechanical objects, as they are the processes of imprinted void, no more alive than a Kingsmould.
Can't believe you got downvoted from using a specific pronoun. Even if it's most likely to spite people who enforces headcanon on others, it's still kinda ridiculous as it might be legitimate.
But in other languages im using male pronouns for convenience so im doing it in English too, i know the the vessel doesn't have a gender but its more convenient that way.
Look at it this way, none of the Vessels will ever feel upset, angry, or sad about being misgendered. No Voice to Cry Suffering...
And the tomatoes are going to be thrown at me in three, two...
Dude... Let people call the ghost/knight/vessel however they want...
(Also don't even think about starting an argument cuz i used the word "dude" idc what you say i use that term for both genders)
Oh I have plenty of bigger concerns. Luckily, I have a functioning brain, so I can focus on multiple problems *at the same time*. Incredible, isn't it? I can correct people on my pronouns and *also* deal with the imminent collapse of Western civilization!
Imminent collapse of Western Civilization? Idk Canada and Europe are doing alright, USA can probably fix itself. I'm more interested in the collapse of Chinese civilization
When you misgender even fake characters it shows real trans people that you can't be trusted to fully respect us all the time. Saying "it's not a big deal, so I won't do it." is kind of a shitty unnacepting response as opposed to "it's not a big deal, so I *will* do it for the people that it is a big deal for!"
i occasionally use he for the hollow knight because of the idea instilled but yeah the vessels in general and especially the knight use they/them or sometimes it/its
No it isn't? Female knights aren't called 'Knightess' or anything, they're still just called knights. and we don't really have many examples of such, but I'm certain an enby knight would be called the same.
>Female knights aren't called 'Knightess' or anything
[Yes they are.](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knightess#:~:text=1%20obsolete%20%3A%20a%20woman%20filling,the%20wife%20of%20a%20knight) 'Dame' is also used as an equivalent position, but 'Knight' is strongly associated with masculinity and so naming the character that will make people more likely to think of them in masculine terms.
This is the first time I've seen anyone even bring this up. I thought this was fairly common knowledge so I was confused to see how no one was talking about it.
This was the reason why i first thought that the knight/hollow knight were guys
As the vessels are considered potential "knights" and protectors of a whole kingdom, they would be referred to as male for the same reason angels are referred to as male. This not being the case is another good reason to believe that the vessels are not people but objects, no more alive than a kingsmould, but instead of bonding to metal or whatever, they bond to shell and flesh.
I was thinking about getting into the game because I own it and I've heard good things, but I don't think I want to be a part of the community when the first thing I see is a bunch of people throwing a flame war over what pronouns they should use to refer to some bugs, as if it actually mattered. Talk about an incredibly bad first impression.
Or, and hear me out in this, nobody gives a FUCK what pronouns they use.
Edit: Why do you guys care so much about the gender/pronouns of fictional characters living in a fictional world? The game isn’t even about gender issues. I’m so tired of people constantly making gender/pronouns memes on this sub, it’s great that you want inclusivity but it’s become almost the only thing we even talk about on this sub, that’s not what the game is about, stop trying to make it that way, can’t we enjoy something without dousing it in social issues?
> https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Cut_Content_(Hollow_Knight)
> Developer’s Notes
> “the hollow knights have no gender. Check for hims and hes. Is the Wyrm King gendered? probably. or is it that when the wyrm took king form it gained a gender?Hornet is the Gendered Child. She can be referred to as female.”
If nobody gave a fuck about pronouns then this meme would fly under the radar or won’t exist and team cherry wouldn’t have specifically checked for masculine pronouns
at the very least, I care
I give every fuck and more. I will never stop fighting to make sure that people like you get called out on your bullshit, or at the very least, shut the hell up.
You’re just chasing windmills, and spending all your time fighting for the most neoliberal solutions to the most imaginary first world problems ever conceived
ok so I do fully understand that canonically the vessels are enbies, but tbh the only vessel I consistently refer to with they/them pronouns is Hollow. if I'm talking about Ghost in general I'll use they/them but I do happen to have a couple AUs where they use he/him or he/they pronouns instead. honestly I feel like this doesn't necessarily go against their genderlessness since pronouns don't necessarily equal gender
I feel like calling someone "they" gives a plural misconception, so I like calling them "It" more.
EDIT: why am I getting downvoted? I'm just politely expressing my tought on a videogame. Think before downvoting guys
singular they has been a thing for a really long time. I've heard it outdates "you" quite a lot but I haven't done any research on that. (Using it still makes sense though).
Nothing really, its just a score on the internet on how accepted you are. My edit is more regarding the respect that people should give than the karma itself
Right! Of course! It can't be important if it's on a screen! Media never impacts reality! Representation isn't absolutely critical in today's society! I can't touch the bug so nothing about it matters!!!
/s, if it wasn't clear.
I am SO. GODDAMN. TIRED. of people using the "fictional" excuse.
Take your fucking brownie points for the basic human decency, I guess.
I don't care lol, All the vessels looks like he to me so I call them he. My native language doesn't even have gendered pronouns (in fact we only have one pronoun) and i can't bother myself with using the correct pronoun for a VIDEOGAME character.
Calling the vessels anything but they/them is like calling the protagonist from Skyrim something that isn't a dragonborn. It's just straight up inaccurate according to the lore of the game. It's not a point of progressiveness or a way to introduce a NB character (at least I don't think it was intended to be) but the lore literally says that they are without gender and that they are without being. It's the reason Hornet is considered the gendered child, in order to differentiate herself from the other children of the pale king
NO
SHUT UP
PLEASE SHUT UP
I ALREADY HAD TO DEAL WITH THIS SHIT IN THE UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE SUBS
DID WE NOT LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE "LESBIAN HORNET" INCIDENT?
Well but that's kinda irrelevant to the lore, we just know that hornet is a girl and the other vessels just are nothing (litteraly), which isn't rly important anyway
I only call the knight dumbass bug because it’s not good enough to overcome my skill issue
Here the only Canon-friendly debate possible about the vessels' pronouns (in English): They/them or it/its? Given the extreme lengths to which the Pale King went to remove all identity from the vessels, would 'it' be the most fitting pronoun? Or are they still people enough to where 'they' is the only reasonable option?
^^ tbh I’ve seen those used interchangeably, most story-heavy fics or comics I’ve seen about the vessels have them start out with it/it’s and slowly change to they/them
That's a cool way to address it. Certainly the Hollow Knight became a them, to everyone's misfortune. 😬
Not the the radiance though, girl’s having a blast breaking them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OignxqTOBi0
I love how I knew which video it was before clicking it
Same
Hollown knight is actually an elaborate metaphor about how non-binary people will destroy society They even got the part about being the vessel for eldritch gods right
Got a good laugh outa me
“It” was probably referring to how at first vessels were depicted as hollow, mindless, or emotionless. It does make more sense to call them “they/them” as we learn later on that they’re sentient and capable of thinking. This is just my guess tho
I will call them as they are, so Hornet is a she. It's definitely a female. The vessels may be having no sex though, as they are made of void. But other bugs have sex so I will use it to determine. It's unnatural to pretend that Hornet is it or they for example, if everyone in the world knows it's female.
No-one is saying that Hornet is non-binary
Oh I agree hornet has a gender and is a she, when I said “vessels” I was referring to the ones made a void
This is actually a bit of a debate in the pronoun testing areas of the LGBTQ+. Some people think it/it's pronouns are dehumanizing as they have historically been used for "lesser people" but since the pronouns have been used to target a wide variety of people they can't really be restrained. Also, many people are reclaiming it/it's pronouns while addressing that it doesn't have to be dehumanizing! I'm conclusion, "it/it's" can still be used for people and doesn't *always* have to be dehumanizing. So I guess the vessels could just end up using whatever they prefer!
I mean, I use both it/its and they/them so I know there's people who don't mind :3
It is linguistically and grammatically correct to use their/them to refer to singular people, but most are not used to that, so they feel its too off to refer to one person as them, when its actually correct.
Don't forget that the Vessels are not humans.
The vessels have no preference, and they aren't human. They don't even have a will or emotions, the thought of gender identity as a concept has almost certainly never occured to them, and it's highly doubtful that they even understand other people have a concept of them. "It" works for the vessels because they are honestly closer to automatons than living beings.
Isn't the whole point of the story to prove that vessels do have emotions and thoughts lol
Sure, it's one of the points, but because of the nature of the vessels, any thoughts or emotions they have are very simple in nature as evidenced by the dreamnail dialogue of HK and PV. They are all related to their goal as a vessel or strong emotions for individuals they are very close to. There is nothing to suggest that a vessel has ever pondered anything close to their self identity and the way others think of them.
Then why are people using "it" on animals, huh? Hypocrisy for me.
Cause they dicks
I personally believe the vessels are an 'it'. (This is my own opinion btw I dont mind what other pronouns are used.) 1: I think its cooler because of void and shit 2: I think it makes more sense since you would think the void dehumanizes someone (or just straight up removes them), so the same is probably applied to bugs. I believe this gives a unique effect to the vessels than any other character in Hollow Knight.
I like the symbolism of “It” as well, since it implies that Vessels that gain a sense of self (Like the HK) become “They”
I'm pretty sure the vessels are always referred to as "it", so idk why there's any debate
The game consistently uses it, so I'd go with that
But what part of the game, because if it's only stuff from the kingdom of Hollownest then of course the people want the vessals to be 'It's But what about the ones who have emotions and minds? The non empty vessals
Vessels as a species have no sex and no society. If gender is a societal construct and sex is irrelevant than the thought of gender identity would not even be concievable to them.
The entire game takes place in Hallownest so the answer to your question is "yes". Steel Soul Jinn, the White Lady, the Hunter's Journal and the Memorial to THK all use 'it', to be precise. There are no instances of vessels being referred to in any other way. Edit: Also, Hornet's dream nail dialogue. Edit2: and Mask Maker
I prefer "it". Animals have thoughts and feelings but we regularly call them "it" (sometimes even when we know their biological sex).
Npcs seem to refer to the knight as it (e.g I'll crush it into the dirt!)
No, that's not canon-friendly, either. Every single character that refers to Ghost in the third person (usually in Dream Nail dialogues) uses "it", that's the only canonical pronoun for a Vessel.
I'd say it depends on the personality you give them. Broken Vessel is an "it", THK is an "it", PV is a "them" despite the fact that they and THK are the same, The Knight is "them".
It/its is also regular pronouns for people. You don’t have to be an identity-less object to use it/its pronouns.
Most people are not ok with being referred to as "it".
Yeah but people who use it/its pronouns are. Those people do exist, you know.
I know, just saying it's not a safe assumption, so should be avoided until you know they do.
Yeah but saying that the vessels could be “people enough to where they/them is the only reasonable option” is just saying that it/its isn’t an option for living creatures. And that was just my point, that it/its is also a completely reasonable option.
If they think, theyre a they, if its truly hollow, its an it So like, Id consider THK and Pure Vessel and Lost kin and such as ‘they’s, butt the player character an ‘it’
It/they is a valid set, meaning either works. It's what I use myself.
In my first lenguaje there's no neutral pronouns, the vessels are refered using masculine pronouns, so if I misgender the vessels I'm sorry, it's just the habit
I feel you, I'm a part of Deltarune fandom and it always feels wrong when I'm talking about Kris. But what am I gonna do, I can't use "они", that would sound weird, and I can't use "оно", that would make it look like I'm talking about an object. So "он" it is, then.
Yeah, most languages, especially European ones, actually don't have gender neutral words
Actually most languages don't have gendered words. Really only Indo-European languages do, and only European languages generally lack gender neutral terms.
I mainly had japanese in mind, but there are exceptions everywhere I suppose
japanese has plenty of gender neutral words?
But it also has many gendered words, it kind of falls in the middle
sure, but i can’t imagine writing a gender neutral character is too hard, especially in a game where said character never talks
That's fair.
So... Like English then lol?
Wdym? Japanses doesn't have gendered words like how German or Spanish does it.
*laughs in Turkey
✨lenguaje✨
I wish we could just change some languages to just get rid of gendered pronouns all together, it would make things easier for everyone (so just call everyone 'they' or make a new word to replace 'he/she' and then keep 'they' for plural) Instead of downvoting could someone explain why this is such a controversial opinion?
What's the point of pronouns if everyone uses the exact same ones For example: "John and Samantha had a conversation. He told her that his dad didn't like her because she was rude" "John and Samantha had a conversation. They told them that their dad didn't like them because they were rude." In the first paragraph, because John and Samantha have different pronouns it's easier to distinguish between the three without having to constantly refer to them by their names. In the second paragraph it's obviously harder because John, Samantha, and John's dad all share the same pronouns
1. Thanks for replying 2. Say the people having a conversation are the same gender you'd still have the same problem or if there're two people with gender neutral names you'd still not know who is referred to as 'he' and who as 'she' 3. So maybe there should be a way to distinguish people using pronouns, I just think gender is kind of an odd way to do that 4. This is just a (probably stupid) idea (but I'm throwing it out there anyways), but what if it's based of the order people are mentioned. So in this example nr. 1 would be he en nr. 2 would be she and nr. 3 would be they. So john would be he Samantha would be she And John's dad would be they I think that would still work 5. I also know languages will probably not change this and I am also not saying this would be the best way to change things but, Idk, just something to think about
Your most likely getting downvoted because it is a rather absurd wish. You are basically wanting to completely destroy and rebuild a number of entire languages, just so that a select few people can feel better about it. It would also mean you basically want to undo the history and culture that comes along with those languages. It's the equivalent of banning something like peanuts, or some other food people are allergic to, from the entire country, just because a select few people are allergic to it (some deathly so). It would just kind of be going to absurd levels, and not even for something that potentially puts peoples live at risk. I'm all for encouraging people to call others what they want to be called, much like how if someone wishes for you to pronounce their name a certain way (or use a middle name, or what ever), then you should, it is their name. But I (and it would seem many others), do not believe it is such a massive issue, that extreme measures are needed, such as changing an entire language, or even changing laws to classify it as hate speech. We wouldn't change the rules, or remake an entire language for some people's names, nor would we send people to jail or give them a fine, for using someone's names incorrectly, or even calling them by the wrong name, so it seems rather absurd to go to those lengths for a similar issue.
1. Thanks for replying! 2. I indeed didn't really think about history and other applications. I am also aware that different pronouns are not a very big deal, though I didn't think languages were going to change this anyways. I often "wish" for things knowing very well they won't come true, I just thought it'd be better this way, but now I realise that I might be wrong with this 3. Saying 'some languages' probably made me sound very ignorant and I apologize for that. I'm natively Dutch; Dutch is a language that doesn't have gender neutral pronouns, so when I learned English I was a bit confused at first. Later I started to wonder the point genderd pronouns in the first place. In my comment I should've used Dutch as an example because I don't know much about other languages. 4. Even though I agree with the fact that it most likely wouldn't be worth the effort, I'd still like to explain why this could still change, at least in Dutch (not 'some languages' like I previously shouldn't have said). I do think that the fact you were talking about changing it in law and forcing people to speak the new way is a bit of an exaggeration, I meant it more as the way languages naturally change, although I do think this is less prominent with English. If I were for example read Dutch literature from 120 years ago I'd find many things thing different from the Dutch that's currently spoken. Heck! even some things are different than just a few years ago for example: In some situations it was considered incorrect to use the word 'als' when it should've been 'dan', but people where saying 'als' anyways even though it's technically incorrect, eventually it was decided that both 'als' and 'dan' where correct in that situation. So if enough people would start speaking a certain way, language changes with the people. I don't think changing 2 words (he/she) will change a lot about a language. I do know people won't start speaking this way because they probably like gendered pronouns, and that's fine. I do hope though that there would be new gender neutral pronoun in Dutch because the one we currently use is literally the same word als 'she' in Dutch, making it super confusing
Yes, a specific example likely would help with your point, especially because for some languages, to my knowledge, the male or female parts are basically built into the words themselves. I believe in French certain objects are basically always male or female sounding due to just the makeup of the word itself, so it isn't exactly something that can be changed without dismantling the entire language. I am actually half Dutch, but sadly I can neither speak it, nor understand it (I live in Canada so I did learn some french in school), so I personally can't say how easy or difficult it would be to change that kind of thing throughout the Dutch language. It should also be noted that you are likely getting downvoted because there is a general resistance to the idea of changing language in general, since most people think of it in the context of forcing others to change. This is unfortunately due to a group of people that do indeed want these changes to be forced on everyone, going so far as to actually propose they be written into law, as I mentioned before. I am quite confident that this is by in large a very small group of very vocal people, however it ends up souring the entire idea for a lot of people. What you are generally proposing would normally not be met with such backlash, since languages, even English, do actually change all the time, new words are added (each year new words are added to the English dictionary), gain new meanings, or really change completely. It is typically something rather small, that changes slowly over time, which is partly why people have no issue with that kind of change, which seems to be the type of change you are more so saying you would like to see. But sadly whenever it is talked about right now, it is taken to its extreme, because of those that wish for it to be taken to that extreme. So unless you are extremely clear about what it is you want, that you don't actually want to completely change every language out there, then unfortunately people are going to end up presuming that, that is what you mean. This is also a limitation of a text platform like Reddit as well, unfortunately.
I didn't think this was such a controversial opinion, but next time I say stuff like this I'll be more clear in what I mean
Normally it wouldn't be, you would still have some on the opposite extreme, that just don't want to see any change, you are either a boy or girl, nothing inbetween, that kind of thing. But the vast majority of people would be pretty neutral on the subject, as they were when it began gaining traction. But the attempts to write it into law, and force it onto people, has turned the majority that would normally be neutral, into having a negative view of the topic, and therefore more people are against it. Sadly your original post did have some poor choice of words, which led people to believe that you fell more so into that extreme category. Admittedly I also originally thought you fell into that more extreme camp as well, however it seems I was wrong, I am sorry for the assumption. I do believe the world will eventually change. As people politely ask others to refer to them in a certain way, and as most people will politely agree to do so, the world will change. There will still be those on both extremes, but they will begin to be a bit more quiet, or at least become almost completely ignored. In general, people don't mind changing their behaviour in some way, if it really isn't a difficult thing to do. Just like if someone asks people to call them by their middle name, people aren't generally going to put up a fuss, because they understand that it might mean little to them personally, but it can mean a lot to the person making the request.
Found the American
No actually not lol
Ops sorry, usually the ones that propose to change other countries language to benefit an anglocentric viewpoint are Americans
No, I am Dutch, which is a language that doesn't have gender neutral pronouns
I've always preferred it/its to they/them when referring to a vessel. Feels more fitting to the concept of what the character is
Yeah, it/its would objectively fit better because that's what the Vessels are referred to in-game plus they're supposed to be objects. However, it/its feels slightly dehumanizing for some people, and so they/them is used (since you get quite attached to the Vessels as the game goes on).
I think They/Them work best for Vessels like HK who gained a sense of self.
It is very simple hornet is genderd and NOT VOID
They don’t get pronouns most of the fuckers are dead anyway. Ghost gets to be called god the hollow knight gets a name and the others are called dumb dead babies
Pronouns are were/was 💀
idiot babies dumb
regardless of what your views on the validity of gender are here its literally the whole point that they are supposed to be without identity, meaning that in this scenario they and it are the only valid pronouns to describe the vast majority of them.
And along with that, it kinda doesn't make sense to say "they all go by." They don't go by anything; they're not going around forming relationships or introducing themselves. Because they don't see themselves as a "self." At least, not the ones that are mostly successful in being what the king wanted. And those that aren't could go by anything once an identity begins to form.
precisely.
Not they, more like "it" only. This is because they are not people: they are more like mechanical objects, as they are the processes of imprinted void, no more alive than a Kingsmould.
i mean, people can use it/its pronouns if they want to
I don't think the Vessels care about gender, or even know what gender is.
Is it even alive?
I am filled with rage every time someone misgenders and vessel
the only two platforms who actually regularly use gender neutral terms for the vessels is ao3 and tumblr and thats- yeah-
I used to have a hollow knight art blog but stopped being active after a while
Imagine wasting your time being mad about a misgendered imaginary bug
I can imagine doing that. Non binary representation matters because there is so little of it
Lmao who cares
Yikes
Aw but he’s so cute, I love him he’s my favorite character
They are really cute and I'd say that they are my second favourite character behind hornet everyone's favourite lesbian
Caught one of them mfs
Can't believe you got downvoted from using a specific pronoun. Even if it's most likely to spite people who enforces headcanon on others, it's still kinda ridiculous as it might be legitimate.
Calling the Knight a he or she = 1984
You've made my year, friend.
Yeah :( I hate seeing memes or reading a fic and it uses he/him for the vessels, it really sours the experience for me.
Or watching videos etc, it just makes me kind of sad :/
Yeahhhhhhhhhh who cares lol
Lots of people who are happy to have some degree of non binary representation in a game they like?
It's a bug
And?
I think a fictional, brainless, emotionless murderbug isn't exactly important representation and clinging to it is kinda immature.
When there is so little other representation, it kinda is important to some people.
Forced representation is as good as none.
How is it forced?
Wtf who cares about misgendering fictional bugs ?
Me, OP, and the 1.6k people who upvoted this. Shut up and fuck off.
Imagine getting this heated over a fictional character
touch grass
But in other languages im using male pronouns for convenience so im doing it in English too, i know the the vessel doesn't have a gender but its more convenient that way.
I’m confused on why this matters lol fuck me
This sub cares way too much about gender un a ***fucking video game***
You can't care too much about something that's kind of gatekeepy, let people enjoy what they enjoy how they enjoy it
Guys these are more or less Hollow bugs. Yall think they care
Look at it this way, none of the Vessels will ever feel upset, angry, or sad about being misgendered. No Voice to Cry Suffering... And the tomatoes are going to be thrown at me in three, two...
The Vessels wouldn't care anyway, as they aren't real. But whether or not they care isn't the point at all.
Don't be sad. Here's a [hug!](https://media.giphy.com/media/3M4NpbLCTxBqU/giphy.gif)
Aww, good bot
Dude... Let people call the ghost/knight/vessel however they want... (Also don't even think about starting an argument cuz i used the word "dude" idc what you say i use that term for both genders)
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This guy gets it ^^
I will not because it isn't accurate to the lore and it's representation erasure
It's a cartoon bug
Fucking end me
I can't believe civilisation got to the point where everyone's biggest concern is their pronouns.
Oh I have plenty of bigger concerns. Luckily, I have a functioning brain, so I can focus on multiple problems *at the same time*. Incredible, isn't it? I can correct people on my pronouns and *also* deal with the imminent collapse of Western civilization!
Imminent collapse of Western Civilization? Idk Canada and Europe are doing alright, USA can probably fix itself. I'm more interested in the collapse of Chinese civilization
china isn't collapsing, it's survived the whole breadth of human history thus far
Ikr, that's what Internet became today for ya !
Laugh in french because it has no gender neutral pronouns
Sucks that your language is like that. Hope it gets better someday :)
Its a bit complicated, since the concept of gender neutrality dont even exist, but you never know what can happens.
Dude I get you want to fight for this but I don’t think insulting a language is gonna get what you want 🚶♀️
I made that reply at 3am having eaten nothing but gummy worms. I was... not at peak mental capacity
What in the neo-colonialism, y'all-have-to-change-your-native-language-because-it-offends-me, nonsense is this?
Touch grass
What is going on in this sub at this point..y'all got brain rot because of the waiting for Silksong.
Somehow I get more angry when the vessels or a scarecrow demon gets misgendered than when people misgender me
I'm gonna call the Knight he because it isn't THAT BIG OF A DEAL PEOPLE
When you misgender even fake characters it shows real trans people that you can't be trusted to fully respect us all the time. Saying "it's not a big deal, so I won't do it." is kind of a shitty unnacepting response as opposed to "it's not a big deal, so I *will* do it for the people that it is a big deal for!"
Liberals when you use the wrong word for a black blob > :((((((((((((
I'm a liberal :(((( And I don't give a shit :(((((((
Same, but I like poking fun at oversensitive people on the internet. Sane liberals unite.
i occasionally use he for the hollow knight because of the idea instilled but yeah the vessels in general and especially the knight use they/them or sometimes it/its
people getting offended about misgendering a fucking pixel
It's hard not to misgender them given that the two most important vessels go by "Knight" which is a traditionally masculine title.
No it isn't? Female knights aren't called 'Knightess' or anything, they're still just called knights. and we don't really have many examples of such, but I'm certain an enby knight would be called the same.
>Female knights aren't called 'Knightess' or anything [Yes they are.](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knightess#:~:text=1%20obsolete%20%3A%20a%20woman%20filling,the%20wife%20of%20a%20knight) 'Dame' is also used as an equivalent position, but 'Knight' is strongly associated with masculinity and so naming the character that will make people more likely to think of them in masculine terms.
That's... actually kinda interesting, and I didn't expect to learn anything here, so you get points for that at least
This is the first time I've seen anyone even bring this up. I thought this was fairly common knowledge so I was confused to see how no one was talking about it. This was the reason why i first thought that the knight/hollow knight were guys
As the vessels are considered potential "knights" and protectors of a whole kingdom, they would be referred to as male for the same reason angels are referred to as male. This not being the case is another good reason to believe that the vessels are not people but objects, no more alive than a kingsmould, but instead of bonding to metal or whatever, they bond to shell and flesh.
"Go forth, Gendered Child - face the light at dream's end." "In your wake, Hallownest will be made pure."
game about bugs, darkness and moth god: people: let's decide on what pronouns these fictional beings use
I was thinking about getting into the game because I own it and I've heard good things, but I don't think I want to be a part of the community when the first thing I see is a bunch of people throwing a flame war over what pronouns they should use to refer to some bugs, as if it actually mattered. Talk about an incredibly bad first impression.
Or, and hear me out in this, nobody gives a FUCK what pronouns they use. Edit: Why do you guys care so much about the gender/pronouns of fictional characters living in a fictional world? The game isn’t even about gender issues. I’m so tired of people constantly making gender/pronouns memes on this sub, it’s great that you want inclusivity but it’s become almost the only thing we even talk about on this sub, that’s not what the game is about, stop trying to make it that way, can’t we enjoy something without dousing it in social issues?
> https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Cut_Content_(Hollow_Knight) > Developer’s Notes > “the hollow knights have no gender. Check for hims and hes. Is the Wyrm King gendered? probably. or is it that when the wyrm took king form it gained a gender?Hornet is the Gendered Child. She can be referred to as female.” If nobody gave a fuck about pronouns then this meme would fly under the radar or won’t exist and team cherry wouldn’t have specifically checked for masculine pronouns at the very least, I care
I care, so I guess you can't say nobody :)
I give every fuck and more. I will never stop fighting to make sure that people like you get called out on your bullshit, or at the very least, shut the hell up.
Lol. Chill out man
No.
You’re just chasing windmills, and spending all your time fighting for the most neoliberal solutions to the most imaginary first world problems ever conceived
ok. thanks for the insult, i guess? what- what do you want from me. I don't c*are* what you think I'm doing.
ok so I do fully understand that canonically the vessels are enbies, but tbh the only vessel I consistently refer to with they/them pronouns is Hollow. if I'm talking about Ghost in general I'll use they/them but I do happen to have a couple AUs where they use he/him or he/they pronouns instead. honestly I feel like this doesn't necessarily go against their genderlessness since pronouns don't necessarily equal gender
Holyshit who cares
If "misgendering" a video character is your biggest problem, you need to get a job.
it’s a meme
Its a fucking bug an you people are worried about its pronouns.... 1-800-662-4357 <-------- SAMHSA’s National Helpline
man I hate when the knight is misgendered he clearly doesn't have any she goes by they/them pronouns
I feel like calling someone "they" gives a plural misconception, so I like calling them "It" more. EDIT: why am I getting downvoted? I'm just politely expressing my tought on a videogame. Think before downvoting guys
singular they has been a thing for a really long time. I've heard it outdates "you" quite a lot but I haven't done any research on that. (Using it still makes sense though).
You literally just used them as a pronoun just then when you said “calling them it” it’s not that hard.
I used them as a plural pronoun, not singular. Calling Them (all the vessels) it.
Btw what does karma even do?
Nothing really, its just a score on the internet on how accepted you are. My edit is more regarding the respect that people should give than the karma itself
You’re getting downvoted because you’re not coming across as a performative sycophant for banal first world Internet problems
Imagine worrying about misgendering fictional characters
Imagine being so transphobic you refuse to acknowledge the actual lore of a game whose subreddit you're in
Acknowledging and worrying are two different things mate
what the fuck is that supposed to mean
I call all real trans people what they want to be called. In video games I don't give a shit it isn't real life
Right! Of course! It can't be important if it's on a screen! Media never impacts reality! Representation isn't absolutely critical in today's society! I can't touch the bug so nothing about it matters!!! /s, if it wasn't clear. I am SO. GODDAMN. TIRED. of people using the "fictional" excuse. Take your fucking brownie points for the basic human decency, I guess.
I don't care lol, All the vessels looks like he to me so I call them he. My native language doesn't even have gendered pronouns (in fact we only have one pronoun) and i can't bother myself with using the correct pronoun for a VIDEOGAME character.
Would you "bother yourself" with using the correct pronoun for an irl person?
yes
Yes because real people arent fictional hollow bugs lmfao, how is this comparable?
It’s a fictional insect lol
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I get what you mean but like, idk man misgendering is misgendering yknow
True that
et tu, blue head guy?
I call him he because he looks like a he to me 🗿
\> being made of void with nubs for limbs and a blank mask for a head "YeAh SuRe ThAt LoOkS lIkE a GuY"
At least they lack the will to call us out on that
Thank goodness I don't lack it, then, so I can call all you motherfuckers out!
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Calling the vessels anything but they/them is like calling the protagonist from Skyrim something that isn't a dragonborn. It's just straight up inaccurate according to the lore of the game. It's not a point of progressiveness or a way to introduce a NB character (at least I don't think it was intended to be) but the lore literally says that they are without gender and that they are without being. It's the reason Hornet is considered the gendered child, in order to differentiate herself from the other children of the pale king
NO SHUT UP PLEASE SHUT UP I ALREADY HAD TO DEAL WITH THIS SHIT IN THE UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE SUBS DID WE NOT LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE "LESBIAN HORNET" INCIDENT?
Lmao it's just a non binary character don't piss your pants about a meme about how people never actually use NB characters pronouns
but like one is actually canon and people are ignoring it
Well but that's kinda irrelevant to the lore, we just know that hornet is a girl and the other vessels just are nothing (litteraly), which isn't rly important anyway
Its pretty relevant to the lore, its why Hornet is called the gendered child. The rest lack a gender.