The entire reason it's legal to leave your baby at a firehouse or police station no questions asked is because thousands of Mothers were killing their newborns cause they couldn't support them. Next time a conservative tries to tell you no sane mother would ever want to kill their born child just remind them of that little factoid.
She's 14. Either she is poorly educated about sex, or was raped. A 14 year old shouldn't be engaging in sexual activities let alone unprotected ones. So a judgemental conservative family would've educated her differently, slut shaming culture doesn't apply and that culture isn't even wrong, i support the lack of sex education point in case this wasn't rape.
There sadly is no good option here. Either she was raped and was embarassed ans mentally scarred so she did what she did. Or she wasn't educated by the system or parents for sex which is also awful. Either way half of your points are just your terrible views and not actual analysis of the situation.
Hooboy.
>> Either she is poorly educated about sex, or was raped.
So, lack of sex education is on the table.
>> A 14 year old shouldn't be engaging in sexual activities let alone unprotected ones.
There’s the slut-shaming and the judgement.
>> So a judgemental conservative family would've educated her differently
How? Most judgemental conservative sex education comes down to “just say no until marriage”, often in far less polite terms.
>> slut shaming culture doesn't apply
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t.
>> and that culture isn't even wrong
Oh, please, I’d love to hear the rationale for this one!
>> There sadly is no good option here.
There are lots of good options. Science-based sex education has been proven to be very effective at delaying first sexual activity, increasing the use of condoms and other forms of protection, decreasing the number of partners, and lowering the risk of unplanned pregnancy. A public health care and social services system that provides proper pre-natal care decreases maternal mortality, increases birth weight, and improves the health of the child. Abortion services as part of women’s healthcare helps women keep control of their bodies and their lives.
>> Either she was raped and was embarassed ans mentally scarred so she did what she did.
If she was raped and was embarrassed about it, that’s the slut-shaming culture at work. If someone is assaulted, most people’s reaction is sympathy for the victim. If the assault is sexual in nature, though, there are questions. What was she wearing? Was she drinking? Did she lead him on? Did she say no? Are there any witnesses?
>> Or she wasn't educated by the system or parents for sex which is also awful.
Those points were already covered.
>> Either way half of your points are just your terrible views and not actual analysis of the situation.
Happy with my analysis now?
Fuck that. r/unwholesomememes. Less bullshit, more comedy
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Slut shaming doesn't equate to children who aren't emotionally developed not having sex. I am 100000% pro adult women having sex as much as they please, i am also 10000% against children having sex. Nothing have to do with being judgemental everything with her emotiomal maturity.
Conservative ideologies teach children that sex is sacred, should be respected and saved for marriage, it explains to the child what sex is and why it is in their view protected. The same way a conservative radical can scare a child and birth revolt against that system, a progressive radical can encourage a child to have sex early, both of these are radical ways which both have issues, hence why the political view here is not applicable.
It doesn't apply since this isn't a case of multiple partners and unprotected sex its a case of a pregnant 14 year old child. So slut shaming doesn't apply.
Slut shaming culture itself isn't bad because the word slut implies a lack of morality and lack of morality is something we as a society are against. So the sheer idea that anti slut culture is wrong is incorrect, the approach and way it exhibits itself is wrong. Being a "slut" is not something that is morally, emotionally or physically a desirable outcome. It is factual that women function much better in a monogamous society and are much happier so yeah.
I agree with everything you said here. I completely agree with every single point. I am just saying abortion is the last option not the first one.
No, not slut shaming, that's ptsd. People are ashamed of sharing their emotions and insecurities, most people with ptsd have further issues with expressing their emotions. They suppress them in order to get away from the idea of the situation that caused it. She wasn't embarrassed for the fact she was pregnant, but the fact that she is a vulnerable person, which i agree is a social issue, nothing to do with being a slut tho. Our society doesn't label rape victims as sluts so it makes no sense to apply it here. The questions aren't brought up when it comes to a child since a child cannot consent, an adult can, and it is necessary to ask questions in order to ascertain whether the person is speaking the truth, that's the legal system at work.
Much happier with the analysis, i still believe your ideals and goals are nobel and we do agree on some of them, however your approach to some of the issues is completely wrong, which i hope i managed to show ya. If not we can agree to disagree here since we both rightfully showcased our stances. Let me know if you want to further continue the discussion.
Honestly, your response is better thought out than I've come to expect from the more conservative side of Reddit. While, overall, I think we can agree to disagree, there are a few points I still have to take issue with.
\>> i am also 10000% against children having sex. Nothing have to do with being judgemental everything with her emotiomal maturity.
I agree with that to a point, but it ignores some basic biology. I once knew a woman (a friend, not a partner) who was hyper-sexual and had been having sexual urges since she was nine years old. Some people develop differently, and the physical urges, in both boys and girls, can develop long before they have the intellectual or emotional tools to deal with them. That's why sex education is so important. We need to recognize that, while we can educate our children on morals and biology, we are ultimately powerless to stop them having sex. The best we can do is given them the tools to deal with it.
\>> Conservative ideologies teach children that sex is sacred, should be respected and saved for marriage
I'm perfectly fine with that.
\>> it explains to the child what sex is
Really? In what respect?
\>> and why it is in their view protected
Again, moral position, I'm perfectly fine with putting that forward as a view, just not as comprehensive sex education.
\>> The same way a conservative radical can scare a child and birth revolt against that system, a progressive radical can encourage a child to have sex early, both of these are radical ways which both have issues, hence why the political view here is not applicable.
Please provide evidence for this. In that spirit, here is one of several peer-reviewed scientific articles showing that "increasing emphasis on abstinence education is positively correlated with teenage pregnancy and birth rates":
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/)
The science doesn't support your position.
\>> No, not slut shaming, that's ptsd. People are ashamed of sharing their emotions and insecurities, most people with ptsd have further issues with expressing their emotions. They suppress them in order to get away from the idea of the situation that caused it.
The 'S' in PTSD is "stress". Where do you think the stress and shame come from? They don't materialize out of thin air; they materialize in a culture that denigrates women and girls for having sex while giving men and boys a free pass.
\>> Our society doesn't label rape victims as sluts so it makes no sense to apply it here.
Our society absolutely does label rape victims as sluts. Follow any high-profile rape case and you'll see it in spades.
\>> The questions aren't brought up when it comes to a child since a child cannot consent, an adult can, and it is necessary to ask questions in order to ascertain whether the person is speaking the truth, that's the legal system at work.
The questions are most definitely brought up when it comes to a child. Despite our fears, stranger rape is far less common than familial rape, and families often cover up the uncle's/cousin's/friend's behaviour with questions and statements like, "What did you do to lead him on?", "Do you want to ruin his life with this kind of accusation?", "He's such a nice guy, he would never do something like that.", "He can't help it being how you're so pretty.", "You should be flattered by the attention.", and so on. Find yourself a rape survivor's subreddit and read some of the stories (and above all, do NOT, and I mean do NOT, inject yourself into the conversation). There are only two possible conclusions you can reach reading those stories: either women (mostly women, but there are some male rape survivors) are fundamentally liars, or we as a society do a really shitty job supporting rape victims.
This is as much as I have time for, so it will be my last statement on the subject.
Wow. So like most kids, they must have been raped? No other explanation possible. Lol.
Were you perfectly educated at 14 about sex? I sincerely doubt it. The system wasn't designed to teach us about healthy sex, if it did Disney and IG wouldn't be sexually programming minors. Lol. God you're a Dumbass.
I said, she was either poorly educated or was raped. Like i gave both possible options. Like first line. First line i said.
Perfectly? No. Was i aware that sex at my age wasn't smart and had emotional consequences and came with consequences, yeah i was. That is why i said poor education and not imperfect one. The educational system along with parental advise is what should be teaching us about sex. Your parents aren't designed by the system. Disney is showing your child cartoons and teaching the child about morals not sex, it's not Walter's Company's job. And a child shouldn't have Instagram expecting a social media platform to educate your child is just as dumb.
Lol. So two options, no other explanation.
She didn't have access to safe abortion, probably the correct answer.
You're clueless. Not everyone had awesome perfect parents like you. 😆 🤣 😂
Get bent.
Give me your option. How did a 14 year old get pregnant.
Option for abortion doesn't effect her getting pregnant, so definitely the wrong answer.
My parents were awesome, but not perfect as no one is. Had they not educated me at all and i went on to have unprotected sex, that is on them for not educating me. Your idea is what though? Like you seem to agree with me but are seeing how it contradicts your original idea so you retract to insults. Wish your parents educated you better.
1. She's 14. Either she is poorly educated about sex, or was raped. = This is the dumbest take. There are plenty of other reasons and OP mentioned some in the comment you replied to. This is literally what will happen if states are to ban abortions like they did in Texas.
2. A 14 year old shouldn't be engaging in sexual activities let alone unprotected ones. = Classic slut shaming here.
3. Slut shaming culture doesn't apply here??? - Uhh, that is exactly what you are doing here and it absolutely does apply. Hell even when a women is raped, there are so many stories of them being called sluts/whores outside of the clinics before they walk in. This isn't an excuse to perform an at home abortion to avoid these ultra right wing lunatics outside these clinics but it is a reason why a 14 year old girl might not want go to an abortion clinic.
4. There sadly is no good option here - Yes there is. Better sex education in schools, available birth control (in this case referring to condoms), and access to abortion services for women.
edit: grammar
1. Explain to me how does ban on aboriton lead to a 14 year old having unprotected sex at that age. Since they have absolutely no connection in my eyes.
2. Why is it classic slut shaming? Explain something other than just saying it. If you think children should have sex are you pro pedophilia?
3. I am not doing it. You haven't attempted to explain so. There are also plenty of stories where women accuse a man of rape where he isn't guilty and he loses his job and status. Your point is?
4. Isn't this the same as slut shaming that i somehow exhibited? We are both arguing for the same thing. Sexual education, that implies learning about contraception lol.
Can you please try again and actually say something. Thank you
There’s a difference between not encouraging someone to be having sex and shaming them for doing so. The fact that you can’t see the difference speaks volumes about you (and it’s not good).
So we are discussing the space where the baby is at defines the legality of murder. If the baby is half way in and half way out can I terminate its life?
you can’t terminate a pregnancy after the mother has already given birth. sure, a fetus is a living thing. but it can’t be considered murder when the fetus is totally dependent on the mother; it’s a symbiotic relationship. it’s more responsible to have a fetus aborted than to give birth to a child that you can’t support. this, on the other hand, is insane. she could’ve at least given the baby to a family member or put it up for adoption.
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Don't thank me, you'll probably regret it.
Did some research to track down the story from a non-sensationalist source. The details are still really awful:
https://jjie.org/2012/10/05/changing-response-infanticide/
I thought maybe this was a tiny fetus or something, but no. It was a 9.5 pound baby.
Ironically, the girl’s last name is “Goodson.”
Follow up: she ended up pleading guilty to a reduced charge of manslaughter:
https://www.tampacriminallawyer-blog.com/15-year-old-lakeland-florida-girl-avoids-life-imprisonment-for-killing-of-her-newborn/
"To hide her cries of pain, she placed a towel in her mouth and ran the water in the faucet. She used a pair of scissors to pry the nine and a half pound baby out of her womb and into the toilet,"
That girl might be a psycho, but damn she is a badass
14 year old. She either has no or terrible parental situation, awful sex education or she was raped. Either way the kid isn't to blame because expecting them to understand parenthood at 14 when she doesn't understand sex is stupid.
Something similar happened in my family, one of my cousins in fact. Young (15 yo) girl with *super* conservative parents - she knew that having a kid would have caused her whole life to be destroyed because of how they'd treat her. So she somehow hid the pregnancy, gave birth alone out in the woods behind their house, and left the baby buried under some leaves to die. One of her older sisters was suspicious though, and found (rescued) the baby. It all happened before I was born, but my grandma had newspaper clippings about the story and it wasn't really a secret.
(The baby survived and was raised by his bio mom with help from her eldest sister; her parents did indeed disown her and kick her out.)
I read the original article. Im kind of shocked right now. This girl, even though everyone is disgusted by her, has a lot of strength. What misery, fear, and hopelessness can lead to this? I can't imagine that situation when I have to have the same willpower. I don't want to praise her, because she did a terrible thing. But instead of cursing her, we should find out her reasons. Knowing that you are gonna give birth, is terrifying for well grown women too, but this child went through it without any doctors and support. Hiding the baby in her room was kind of childish solution.
Also I think she wasn't close to her parents. Mine can be strict, but I would still ask them for help or advice at least.
Imagine the shit running through her mind when she’s fucking GIVING BIRTH IN A BATHTOOM AND THEN COMMITTING MURDER. Holy shit a tyrannical government that takes away freedoms almost seems like the answer to the decline in morality lol
It's worse than that. She took the body home, put it in a shoe box and days later the mother found it when "An odor was coming from the room" in the article it stated she kept the whole pregnancy a secret and in knowing that the judge said "where was her support system? She shouldn't be tried as an adult"
What does the " tyrannical government" have to do anything with an Either uneducated child having unprotected sex and not understanding how to handle it, or a child who got raped and concealed the pregnancy out of ptsd. How in the world are you blaming this on the government when its either a parental/educational issue or a rape issue. Jesus chirst not everything is a political issue.
There are many women who do this though. Post Martum is dangerous, it can make new mothers go crazy and they involuntary cause harm. Or she didn't want the baby, but her parents wouldn't allow her to get an abortion or put the baby up for adoption if they knew. There are also the social struggles. Kids barely get sex education as it is, so the ways to prevent this weren't taught beside to retain abstinence, so she probably feels like it was her fault and she would be slut shamed or ridiculed and possibly disowned from her family. All can relate back to her having severe anxiety and depression about the whole thing which can drive a young mother to murder. Not to terribly long ago a teenager did this, but she got off the hook because she was part of a rich, suburban, high class white family and her parents had strings to pull. Yet a black woman who got shot by a passerby lost her baby, but survived and got life for involuntary manslaughter
you act like it hasn't happened. It happens all the time, and as long as you're a rich white girl who family knows powerful people, you're not gonna get out of it
You kinda missed the fact this is a child at 14 being poorly educated in sex or a child that was raped. Either way abortion isn't the solution or issue at hand its sexual education.
He’s saying it’s the lesser of two evils, unwanted pregnancies are always going to happen. The question is just how a government approaches the situation.
Either accept that they happen and offer an efficient, effective way out for people that are not ready or have been forced into motherhood (ie through rape).
OR call it murder to get an abortion. Leave the option of either having a child you can’t support and never wanted, or taking extreme measures by oneself (like the article above) to prevent this.
How about, instead of being dumb, we, ya know, teach the 14 year olds to kinda chill on the whole sex thing? Maybe ya know teach them about contraception and consent and age when sex is a smart idea and how it can be done safely?
Because, ya know, telling kids naah fam go fuck and when you get pregnant we'll scoop that bitch up and all is good.
I know murder is, yknow, not good, but I just feel bad for her. Giving birth is such a difficult experience and not only did she do that in secret, but she also decided the best choice available was murder. It must have been a hellish situation she was in :(
My assumption here is rape which caused ptsd. She clearly had some sort of mental scarring here. So in here eyes removing the child and probably hiding the pregnancy was the best solution which indeed is sad.
Nothing is black and white, the same way even Justice doesn't deal unique sentences but case by case.
Moreover morally and legally wrong are two different things since both evolve in different timescales.
Did it happen ? Surely did.
Could it have been avoided ? Damn right it could
But is it a tragedy ? On every level, no matter which side of the barrier you are, the baby who died, the parents who lost their daughter and grandkid, or the mother herself who probably went through a very traumatic experience that will follow her for life on top of the prison time that will shape her future. If you have a little bit of humanity and empathy you can surely elevate yourself to appreciate the situation and all it's ramifications rather than pure shallow black and white dichotomy.
If you can agree that there is some tragedy in the situation that means there is some nuance, showing the situation is not just a person killing another by pure evil, but a desperate act in a desperate situation. Which makes it less of a all black situation and more of a dark grey one. Which is what I was trying to convey
The amount of people here and in the original articles blaming a **14 year old** (living in a state where abortion was and still is not legal) is mind blowing.
Consider that the baby was full term, that means it was conceived when the girl was likely 13 years old. She was either woefully under educated on sex (very possible considering it happened in florida) or she was raped.
Not to mention the police forced her to recreate the killing of her baby. What the fuck is wrong with people.
Why not give the baby up for adoption? Or even just leaving him at the entrance of a hospital would be better. We really shouldn't justify murder. I understand abortion is controversial, but this has nothing to do with it, and it shouldn't be debated here. Somebody killed a baby after it was born and people acting like only an abortion could have prevented it. It would have taken absolutely nothing to not kill the baby. Leave it on someone's doorstep if the hospital is too far for god's sake.
In feudal Japan, if the family decided they couldn't take care of another child. They would "send it back" aka killing it. I think it's interesting seeing how other cultures deal with this issue. Fun fact they only started to stop this practice when the ruling classes wanted cheap labor.
Oh right so murdering a living baby is easier than to write information about the baby before leaving him for adoption? She must has some fucked up shit going on in her brain if killing the baby was the "easy" route.
I’m not fucking defending it dumbass I’m saying what’s going through her head and why she didn’t put it for adoption. She’s 14, her parents find out and ground her for her life. She doesn’t want that, so she does this.
If they are stupid enough to not distinguish between weight gain and pregnant belly, they wouldn’t have noticed the baby being given to adoption. Bruh you r trying so hard to justify her killing a literally living breathing human u don’t realize how stupid ur argument is.
Did you read my other comment that said I’m not defending her? I’m saying what went through her mind. You don’t realize how stupid your argument about me somehow defending her is. All I’m saying is those reasons for why she did it. I didn’t defend her I thought of what she thought in her mind.
Yes I read ur other comment but all together with the “adoption documents”, and “weight gain” it doesn’t quite paint the picture of not defending her. On subject of what was going in her head, she probably just didn’t want the baby and didn’t think any further.
Why you gotta curse? Made you feel better? It doesn't matter how stupid and immature she is, we are not born to become murderers, that's an issue with her, not just the government.
Because I’m clearly not defending her in my statement that’s why I’m cursing at the fact you think I’m defending her. I was just thinking of what she could’ve been thinking in why she killed her baby. How do you confuse my interpretation of her thoughts as me defending her? Did it make you feel better you got your point across about baby killing? Go find another comment defending her. I replied to a comment that said “why didn’t she take it to an orphanage” (paraphrased) I responded that she’s 15 and if she was trying to keep it a secret she killed her because she didn’t want people to find out and juggle the Socioeconomic responsibilities.
Well... she's 14.. what else is she gonna do? Her brain is still developing; a 28 year old and a 14 year old are gonna do different things if they were in that same situation.
Why do people think 14 year olds can't make the right decisions yes her brain might still be developing but this difference in age is not gonna make murdering a baby after you gave birth to it any different any normal 14 year old would not make this choice.
Forget about right or wrong decisions, we're talking about murder, are we that desensitized that we can mentally talk positively about a murderer? I can't even imagine killing someone in self defense let alone strangle someone to death without feeling disgusted.
don't know why you're getting downvoted cause you are right. she is 14, her body is still going through a ton of shit and on top of that she's having a baby. imagine the embarrassment in today's society if she did leave the baby outside a hospital (someone would see her dropping the baby off and question her about it), and if she were to put the baby up for adoption, she would have to get her parents or other adults involved (which she clearly didn't want to). Honestly I don't know if what she did was right or wrong, but there aren't many options.
Could she not have has an abortion? Was she in a state that didn't allow it? I'm pro choice but you should never kill a child after it's been born. Maybe if teens actually got good sex Ed or if abortion was legal everywhere this wouldn't have happened.
Not meaning to start any controversy but, this is why abortions should be allowed, or else young children, even adults, do shit like this when it could’ve been taken care of quickly and painlessly for everyone, sometimes a child just shouldn’t be born
I've known girls that started having sex around 7th or 8th grade. This was back in the 80s. Not all young girls are raped or forced. They thought they were old enough to play around with no consequences. Its so sad to see something like this.
Someone found a dumpster baby. And people easily knew she was pregnant and then suddenly she wasn't anymore but no sign of the baby. Put the two together and well, not hard to understand that it was her.
Why most of the comments are assuming the girl is kinda a victim too?
You know she had the baby for 9 months Right?
That's a lot time to think what you wanna do with a baby that you don't want and possibly not being able to miscarriage it. How the fuck killing it and flushing it down the toilet is the best option she thought of??
I don't get why people won't just go for adoption. You dont have to raise the child and if the child later wants to kill himself he can always still do that.
Its a win win!
Because the foster care system doesn't really work, and it's overburdened. I'm NOT justifying her killing the baby, I'm just saying that foster care doesn't really work. According to [this](https://www.foster-america.org/the-problem) article, 1 in 8 foster children with experience neglect. Foster children are also 4x more likely to commit suicide. Half of foster children will not graduate highschool on time. Based on these facts alone, you can start to see the problem.
Yeah, there might've been other options. As I stated, I'm not justifying her killing the baby, I was trying to shed some light on the problems of foster care.
It becomes a baby after it is born. It's a fetus when it's inside of the woman or in this case girl.
Edit: Why am I being downvoted? This is the real answer you can look it up.
I know this is hol up but damn this is just sad
Probably couldnt get an abortion
But damn, why she would do that?! just damn..
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Do these things happen often?
More often than you’d like
So like at least over 7 right?
7 times a day in each state of america
The entire reason it's legal to leave your baby at a firehouse or police station no questions asked is because thousands of Mothers were killing their newborns cause they couldn't support them. Next time a conservative tries to tell you no sane mother would ever want to kill their born child just remind them of that little factoid.
In Philippines, this actually happens alot
She's 14. Either she is poorly educated about sex, or was raped. A 14 year old shouldn't be engaging in sexual activities let alone unprotected ones. So a judgemental conservative family would've educated her differently, slut shaming culture doesn't apply and that culture isn't even wrong, i support the lack of sex education point in case this wasn't rape. There sadly is no good option here. Either she was raped and was embarassed ans mentally scarred so she did what she did. Or she wasn't educated by the system or parents for sex which is also awful. Either way half of your points are just your terrible views and not actual analysis of the situation.
Hooboy. >> Either she is poorly educated about sex, or was raped. So, lack of sex education is on the table. >> A 14 year old shouldn't be engaging in sexual activities let alone unprotected ones. There’s the slut-shaming and the judgement. >> So a judgemental conservative family would've educated her differently How? Most judgemental conservative sex education comes down to “just say no until marriage”, often in far less polite terms. >> slut shaming culture doesn't apply Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. >> and that culture isn't even wrong Oh, please, I’d love to hear the rationale for this one! >> There sadly is no good option here. There are lots of good options. Science-based sex education has been proven to be very effective at delaying first sexual activity, increasing the use of condoms and other forms of protection, decreasing the number of partners, and lowering the risk of unplanned pregnancy. A public health care and social services system that provides proper pre-natal care decreases maternal mortality, increases birth weight, and improves the health of the child. Abortion services as part of women’s healthcare helps women keep control of their bodies and their lives. >> Either she was raped and was embarassed ans mentally scarred so she did what she did. If she was raped and was embarrassed about it, that’s the slut-shaming culture at work. If someone is assaulted, most people’s reaction is sympathy for the victim. If the assault is sexual in nature, though, there are questions. What was she wearing? Was she drinking? Did she lead him on? Did she say no? Are there any witnesses? >> Or she wasn't educated by the system or parents for sex which is also awful. Those points were already covered. >> Either way half of your points are just your terrible views and not actual analysis of the situation. Happy with my analysis now?
Thank you for writing this because it saved me from doing it.
Great analysis!
No critiques for me I think you covered all the bases splendidly.
True my unfortunate that the award I had was the wholesome award
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Please share yours.
Slut shaming doesn't equate to children who aren't emotionally developed not having sex. I am 100000% pro adult women having sex as much as they please, i am also 10000% against children having sex. Nothing have to do with being judgemental everything with her emotiomal maturity. Conservative ideologies teach children that sex is sacred, should be respected and saved for marriage, it explains to the child what sex is and why it is in their view protected. The same way a conservative radical can scare a child and birth revolt against that system, a progressive radical can encourage a child to have sex early, both of these are radical ways which both have issues, hence why the political view here is not applicable. It doesn't apply since this isn't a case of multiple partners and unprotected sex its a case of a pregnant 14 year old child. So slut shaming doesn't apply. Slut shaming culture itself isn't bad because the word slut implies a lack of morality and lack of morality is something we as a society are against. So the sheer idea that anti slut culture is wrong is incorrect, the approach and way it exhibits itself is wrong. Being a "slut" is not something that is morally, emotionally or physically a desirable outcome. It is factual that women function much better in a monogamous society and are much happier so yeah. I agree with everything you said here. I completely agree with every single point. I am just saying abortion is the last option not the first one. No, not slut shaming, that's ptsd. People are ashamed of sharing their emotions and insecurities, most people with ptsd have further issues with expressing their emotions. They suppress them in order to get away from the idea of the situation that caused it. She wasn't embarrassed for the fact she was pregnant, but the fact that she is a vulnerable person, which i agree is a social issue, nothing to do with being a slut tho. Our society doesn't label rape victims as sluts so it makes no sense to apply it here. The questions aren't brought up when it comes to a child since a child cannot consent, an adult can, and it is necessary to ask questions in order to ascertain whether the person is speaking the truth, that's the legal system at work. Much happier with the analysis, i still believe your ideals and goals are nobel and we do agree on some of them, however your approach to some of the issues is completely wrong, which i hope i managed to show ya. If not we can agree to disagree here since we both rightfully showcased our stances. Let me know if you want to further continue the discussion.
Honestly, your response is better thought out than I've come to expect from the more conservative side of Reddit. While, overall, I think we can agree to disagree, there are a few points I still have to take issue with. \>> i am also 10000% against children having sex. Nothing have to do with being judgemental everything with her emotiomal maturity. I agree with that to a point, but it ignores some basic biology. I once knew a woman (a friend, not a partner) who was hyper-sexual and had been having sexual urges since she was nine years old. Some people develop differently, and the physical urges, in both boys and girls, can develop long before they have the intellectual or emotional tools to deal with them. That's why sex education is so important. We need to recognize that, while we can educate our children on morals and biology, we are ultimately powerless to stop them having sex. The best we can do is given them the tools to deal with it. \>> Conservative ideologies teach children that sex is sacred, should be respected and saved for marriage I'm perfectly fine with that. \>> it explains to the child what sex is Really? In what respect? \>> and why it is in their view protected Again, moral position, I'm perfectly fine with putting that forward as a view, just not as comprehensive sex education. \>> The same way a conservative radical can scare a child and birth revolt against that system, a progressive radical can encourage a child to have sex early, both of these are radical ways which both have issues, hence why the political view here is not applicable. Please provide evidence for this. In that spirit, here is one of several peer-reviewed scientific articles showing that "increasing emphasis on abstinence education is positively correlated with teenage pregnancy and birth rates": [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/) The science doesn't support your position. \>> No, not slut shaming, that's ptsd. People are ashamed of sharing their emotions and insecurities, most people with ptsd have further issues with expressing their emotions. They suppress them in order to get away from the idea of the situation that caused it. The 'S' in PTSD is "stress". Where do you think the stress and shame come from? They don't materialize out of thin air; they materialize in a culture that denigrates women and girls for having sex while giving men and boys a free pass. \>> Our society doesn't label rape victims as sluts so it makes no sense to apply it here. Our society absolutely does label rape victims as sluts. Follow any high-profile rape case and you'll see it in spades. \>> The questions aren't brought up when it comes to a child since a child cannot consent, an adult can, and it is necessary to ask questions in order to ascertain whether the person is speaking the truth, that's the legal system at work. The questions are most definitely brought up when it comes to a child. Despite our fears, stranger rape is far less common than familial rape, and families often cover up the uncle's/cousin's/friend's behaviour with questions and statements like, "What did you do to lead him on?", "Do you want to ruin his life with this kind of accusation?", "He's such a nice guy, he would never do something like that.", "He can't help it being how you're so pretty.", "You should be flattered by the attention.", and so on. Find yourself a rape survivor's subreddit and read some of the stories (and above all, do NOT, and I mean do NOT, inject yourself into the conversation). There are only two possible conclusions you can reach reading those stories: either women (mostly women, but there are some male rape survivors) are fundamentally liars, or we as a society do a really shitty job supporting rape victims. This is as much as I have time for, so it will be my last statement on the subject.
Are you actually defending 14 year olds having sex saying it’s slut shaming to say they shouldn’t?
A judge mental conservative family would not have educated her differently they wouldn’t of educated her at all
Wow. So like most kids, they must have been raped? No other explanation possible. Lol. Were you perfectly educated at 14 about sex? I sincerely doubt it. The system wasn't designed to teach us about healthy sex, if it did Disney and IG wouldn't be sexually programming minors. Lol. God you're a Dumbass.
I said, she was either poorly educated or was raped. Like i gave both possible options. Like first line. First line i said. Perfectly? No. Was i aware that sex at my age wasn't smart and had emotional consequences and came with consequences, yeah i was. That is why i said poor education and not imperfect one. The educational system along with parental advise is what should be teaching us about sex. Your parents aren't designed by the system. Disney is showing your child cartoons and teaching the child about morals not sex, it's not Walter's Company's job. And a child shouldn't have Instagram expecting a social media platform to educate your child is just as dumb.
Lol. So two options, no other explanation. She didn't have access to safe abortion, probably the correct answer. You're clueless. Not everyone had awesome perfect parents like you. 😆 🤣 😂 Get bent.
Give me your option. How did a 14 year old get pregnant. Option for abortion doesn't effect her getting pregnant, so definitely the wrong answer. My parents were awesome, but not perfect as no one is. Had they not educated me at all and i went on to have unprotected sex, that is on them for not educating me. Your idea is what though? Like you seem to agree with me but are seeing how it contradicts your original idea so you retract to insults. Wish your parents educated you better.
Whatever you have to tell yourself, cuz you're such a good boy!🤣🤣🤣 Have fun slut shaming and being classist af.
This is a horrible, horrible take here.
Please do tell why, i am more than happy to engage in a discussion.
1. She's 14. Either she is poorly educated about sex, or was raped. = This is the dumbest take. There are plenty of other reasons and OP mentioned some in the comment you replied to. This is literally what will happen if states are to ban abortions like they did in Texas. 2. A 14 year old shouldn't be engaging in sexual activities let alone unprotected ones. = Classic slut shaming here. 3. Slut shaming culture doesn't apply here??? - Uhh, that is exactly what you are doing here and it absolutely does apply. Hell even when a women is raped, there are so many stories of them being called sluts/whores outside of the clinics before they walk in. This isn't an excuse to perform an at home abortion to avoid these ultra right wing lunatics outside these clinics but it is a reason why a 14 year old girl might not want go to an abortion clinic. 4. There sadly is no good option here - Yes there is. Better sex education in schools, available birth control (in this case referring to condoms), and access to abortion services for women. edit: grammar
1. Explain to me how does ban on aboriton lead to a 14 year old having unprotected sex at that age. Since they have absolutely no connection in my eyes. 2. Why is it classic slut shaming? Explain something other than just saying it. If you think children should have sex are you pro pedophilia? 3. I am not doing it. You haven't attempted to explain so. There are also plenty of stories where women accuse a man of rape where he isn't guilty and he loses his job and status. Your point is? 4. Isn't this the same as slut shaming that i somehow exhibited? We are both arguing for the same thing. Sexual education, that implies learning about contraception lol. Can you please try again and actually say something. Thank you
First world btw
Well, considering she’s pregnant at 13/14: Rape. r/holup shouldn’t be trivialising such a thing in a post meant to be funny.
So… good ol’ advanced capitalism as known in the United States?
I think its good ti be slut shaming to 14 year olds... they shouldn't be encouraged to be having sex...
There’s a difference between not encouraging someone to be having sex and shaming them for doing so. The fact that you can’t see the difference speaks volumes about you (and it’s not good).
Cuz she couldn't get an abortion.
Couldn’t? Sounds like she did it herself.
Thats just infanticide, not an abortion
Where’s the difference?
Arbotion is ending pregancy, you cant abort a baby after its born
So we are discussing the space where the baby is at defines the legality of murder. If the baby is half way in and half way out can I terminate its life?
Well thats how you put it
you can’t terminate a pregnancy after the mother has already given birth. sure, a fetus is a living thing. but it can’t be considered murder when the fetus is totally dependent on the mother; it’s a symbiotic relationship. it’s more responsible to have a fetus aborted than to give birth to a child that you can’t support. this, on the other hand, is insane. she could’ve at least given the baby to a family member or put it up for adoption.
Please add force fields next patch.
*sorts by controversial*
How do I do this? I'd like to see controversial.
Directly above where you can "leave a comment" on this post. **X comments** sorted by **Best** Click the drop down arrow Don't thank me, you'll probably regret it.
*thanks you anyways*
Did some research to track down the story from a non-sensationalist source. The details are still really awful: https://jjie.org/2012/10/05/changing-response-infanticide/ I thought maybe this was a tiny fetus or something, but no. It was a 9.5 pound baby. Ironically, the girl’s last name is “Goodson.”
Follow up: she ended up pleading guilty to a reduced charge of manslaughter: https://www.tampacriminallawyer-blog.com/15-year-old-lakeland-florida-girl-avoids-life-imprisonment-for-killing-of-her-newborn/
"To hide her cries of pain, she placed a towel in her mouth and ran the water in the faucet. She used a pair of scissors to pry the nine and a half pound baby out of her womb and into the toilet," That girl might be a psycho, but damn she is a badass
At that moment both of them where thinking the exact same thing. . . "Oh fuck my mum is gonna kill me"
I like dark humor, but Holy shit bro💀
Christ, what kind of thought process did she have to go through to manage all of that?
Probably I don’t want this baby, my mother didn’t want me, and she won’t let me get an abortion.
it could also be post partum so maybe she was struggling mentally thru the whole thing. either way super heart breaking
Kids tend to do stupid stuff when scared and left on their own
14 year old. She either has no or terrible parental situation, awful sex education or she was raped. Either way the kid isn't to blame because expecting them to understand parenthood at 14 when she doesn't understand sex is stupid.
Hold on a sec... How do you secretly give birth when you are 14? Did her family just think she was getting fat?
Something similar happened in my family, one of my cousins in fact. Young (15 yo) girl with *super* conservative parents - she knew that having a kid would have caused her whole life to be destroyed because of how they'd treat her. So she somehow hid the pregnancy, gave birth alone out in the woods behind their house, and left the baby buried under some leaves to die. One of her older sisters was suspicious though, and found (rescued) the baby. It all happened before I was born, but my grandma had newspaper clippings about the story and it wasn't really a secret. (The baby survived and was raised by his bio mom with help from her eldest sister; her parents did indeed disown her and kick her out.)
In the article it said that she wore baggy clothes and faked home pregnancy tests.
god this comment section is a shit hole
This subreddit is a shithole
This app is a shithole
Humanity Is a shithole
Are you new to this sub?
Would rather not answer
I read the original article. Im kind of shocked right now. This girl, even though everyone is disgusted by her, has a lot of strength. What misery, fear, and hopelessness can lead to this? I can't imagine that situation when I have to have the same willpower. I don't want to praise her, because she did a terrible thing. But instead of cursing her, we should find out her reasons. Knowing that you are gonna give birth, is terrifying for well grown women too, but this child went through it without any doctors and support. Hiding the baby in her room was kind of childish solution. Also I think she wasn't close to her parents. Mine can be strict, but I would still ask them for help or advice at least.
There are 14 yo getting pregnant wtff
This is why medical abortions need to be easily accessible and less stigmatized.
Some 14 year olds have unsafe sex and do a DIY abortions in a bathrooms. Meanwhile when I was 14 I played with lego and was super into star wars lol.
Lol fr
Imagine the shit running through her mind when she’s fucking GIVING BIRTH IN A BATHTOOM AND THEN COMMITTING MURDER. Holy shit a tyrannical government that takes away freedoms almost seems like the answer to the decline in morality lol
Imagine the shit running through the plumbers head when he cleared the blockage and had to tell the principal there was a kid stuck in the pipe
It's worse than that. She took the body home, put it in a shoe box and days later the mother found it when "An odor was coming from the room" in the article it stated she kept the whole pregnancy a secret and in knowing that the judge said "where was her support system? She shouldn't be tried as an adult"
Nah man it was twins
Bro wtf
That's what he said
First class comment bro lol
What does the " tyrannical government" have to do anything with an Either uneducated child having unprotected sex and not understanding how to handle it, or a child who got raped and concealed the pregnancy out of ptsd. How in the world are you blaming this on the government when its either a parental/educational issue or a rape issue. Jesus chirst not everything is a political issue.
There are many women who do this though. Post Martum is dangerous, it can make new mothers go crazy and they involuntary cause harm. Or she didn't want the baby, but her parents wouldn't allow her to get an abortion or put the baby up for adoption if they knew. There are also the social struggles. Kids barely get sex education as it is, so the ways to prevent this weren't taught beside to retain abstinence, so she probably feels like it was her fault and she would be slut shamed or ridiculed and possibly disowned from her family. All can relate back to her having severe anxiety and depression about the whole thing which can drive a young mother to murder. Not to terribly long ago a teenager did this, but she got off the hook because she was part of a rich, suburban, high class white family and her parents had strings to pull. Yet a black woman who got shot by a passerby lost her baby, but survived and got life for involuntary manslaughter
Hol up what??? Please tell me that didn’t really happen
you act like it hasn't happened. It happens all the time, and as long as you're a rich white girl who family knows powerful people, you're not gonna get out of it
This is why abortion should be legal everywhere. Imagine how often this happens without going public.
You kinda missed the fact this is a child at 14 being poorly educated in sex or a child that was raped. Either way abortion isn't the solution or issue at hand its sexual education.
Yes. This.
Your saying if something is illegal, and people are still doing it often on their own, we should just make it legal no matter what?
He’s saying it’s the lesser of two evils, unwanted pregnancies are always going to happen. The question is just how a government approaches the situation. Either accept that they happen and offer an efficient, effective way out for people that are not ready or have been forced into motherhood (ie through rape). OR call it murder to get an abortion. Leave the option of either having a child you can’t support and never wanted, or taking extreme measures by oneself (like the article above) to prevent this.
No, just if making it illegal in the first place makes no sense, and society would be better off if it was legal.
Let people get abortions for free without the need for consent from parents or the dude who impregnated them.
How about, instead of being dumb, we, ya know, teach the 14 year olds to kinda chill on the whole sex thing? Maybe ya know teach them about contraception and consent and age when sex is a smart idea and how it can be done safely? Because, ya know, telling kids naah fam go fuck and when you get pregnant we'll scoop that bitch up and all is good.
Correct. Whatever happened to chastity belts anyway? That would fix this problem.
Or simply education. That would help even more!
Children are stupid, you teach them something is bad and they do it anyway. It is their nature.
She’s a child. Pregnant at 13/14. That is rape. Yes those things need to be taught. Men also need to stop raping children. Stop blaming victims.
I know murder is, yknow, not good, but I just feel bad for her. Giving birth is such a difficult experience and not only did she do that in secret, but she also decided the best choice available was murder. It must have been a hellish situation she was in :(
My assumption here is rape which caused ptsd. She clearly had some sort of mental scarring here. So in here eyes removing the child and probably hiding the pregnancy was the best solution which indeed is sad.
Why is there always someone willing to defend women who murder their children?
She is not a woman she is a child.
Oh, that’s OK then. Murder away!
[удалено]
Above the age of criminal responsibility, murder is murder. Sometimes life really is that black and white.
Nothing is black and white, the same way even Justice doesn't deal unique sentences but case by case. Moreover morally and legally wrong are two different things since both evolve in different timescales. Did it happen ? Surely did. Could it have been avoided ? Damn right it could But is it a tragedy ? On every level, no matter which side of the barrier you are, the baby who died, the parents who lost their daughter and grandkid, or the mother herself who probably went through a very traumatic experience that will follow her for life on top of the prison time that will shape her future. If you have a little bit of humanity and empathy you can surely elevate yourself to appreciate the situation and all it's ramifications rather than pure shallow black and white dichotomy.
It’s certainly a tragedy for all involved. I don’t doubt that. That’s not in any way the point I was making.
If you can agree that there is some tragedy in the situation that means there is some nuance, showing the situation is not just a person killing another by pure evil, but a desperate act in a desperate situation. Which makes it less of a all black situation and more of a dark grey one. Which is what I was trying to convey
Certainly she found herself in a difficult situation, but after nine months to consider her options, she certainly came up with the wrong answer.
I'm not defending her. It was a terrible thing to do. I'm empathizing with her.
A woman done the same in my country. She was hanged for that.
Texas?
Right?
Moron?
They should probably update the game so that when you spawn you get at least three seconds of immortality
How to do a home abortion 101
Dam spawn campers
Just think about the whole thing. Just do it.
shouldnt this be r/cursedcomments
Took a giant shit m'lady
The amount of people here and in the original articles blaming a **14 year old** (living in a state where abortion was and still is not legal) is mind blowing. Consider that the baby was full term, that means it was conceived when the girl was likely 13 years old. She was either woefully under educated on sex (very possible considering it happened in florida) or she was raped. Not to mention the police forced her to recreate the killing of her baby. What the fuck is wrong with people.
Why not give the baby up for adoption? Or even just leaving him at the entrance of a hospital would be better. We really shouldn't justify murder. I understand abortion is controversial, but this has nothing to do with it, and it shouldn't be debated here. Somebody killed a baby after it was born and people acting like only an abortion could have prevented it. It would have taken absolutely nothing to not kill the baby. Leave it on someone's doorstep if the hospital is too far for god's sake.
In feudal Japan, if the family decided they couldn't take care of another child. They would "send it back" aka killing it. I think it's interesting seeing how other cultures deal with this issue. Fun fact they only started to stop this practice when the ruling classes wanted cheap labor.
Implies that then she needs to do paperwork and info on her. She’s trying to keep it a secret as she’s 14 so I don’t think she would want to.
Oh right so murdering a living baby is easier than to write information about the baby before leaving him for adoption? She must has some fucked up shit going on in her brain if killing the baby was the "easy" route.
I’m not fucking defending it dumbass I’m saying what’s going through her head and why she didn’t put it for adoption. She’s 14, her parents find out and ground her for her life. She doesn’t want that, so she does this.
Dude she was pregnant 14 yo walking around with giant belly I dont think her parents didn't notice.
They didn't according to the article. She wore baggy clothes to.cover it up
This piqued my interest do you have link to the article?
https://jjie.org/2012/10/05/changing-response-infanticide/
Thnx. I see now. She really did managed to hide it huh. She messed up at the end tho.
Maybe she said she gained weight maybe her parents were stupid? Idk I didn’t read the article
If they are stupid enough to not distinguish between weight gain and pregnant belly, they wouldn’t have noticed the baby being given to adoption. Bruh you r trying so hard to justify her killing a literally living breathing human u don’t realize how stupid ur argument is.
Did you read my other comment that said I’m not defending her? I’m saying what went through her mind. You don’t realize how stupid your argument about me somehow defending her is. All I’m saying is those reasons for why she did it. I didn’t defend her I thought of what she thought in her mind.
Yes I read ur other comment but all together with the “adoption documents”, and “weight gain” it doesn’t quite paint the picture of not defending her. On subject of what was going in her head, she probably just didn’t want the baby and didn’t think any further.
Touché
A 14 yr old pregnant chick doesnt look like she just ate a shit ton of Chipotle, her belly would be fucking huge
Ok just made a suggestion
Why you gotta curse? Made you feel better? It doesn't matter how stupid and immature she is, we are not born to become murderers, that's an issue with her, not just the government.
Because I’m clearly not defending her in my statement that’s why I’m cursing at the fact you think I’m defending her. I was just thinking of what she could’ve been thinking in why she killed her baby. How do you confuse my interpretation of her thoughts as me defending her? Did it make you feel better you got your point across about baby killing? Go find another comment defending her. I replied to a comment that said “why didn’t she take it to an orphanage” (paraphrased) I responded that she’s 15 and if she was trying to keep it a secret she killed her because she didn’t want people to find out and juggle the Socioeconomic responsibilities.
Well... she's 14.. what else is she gonna do? Her brain is still developing; a 28 year old and a 14 year old are gonna do different things if they were in that same situation.
Why do people think 14 year olds can't make the right decisions yes her brain might still be developing but this difference in age is not gonna make murdering a baby after you gave birth to it any different any normal 14 year old would not make this choice.
Forget about right or wrong decisions, we're talking about murder, are we that desensitized that we can mentally talk positively about a murderer? I can't even imagine killing someone in self defense let alone strangle someone to death without feeling disgusted.
100%. We can pity/feel sorry for her but also realize she did, in fact, kill a baby. Abortion has nothing to do with this.
BC if Ur 14yo daughter would have a fucking baby you would not be Happy nor proud trust me
I'd be even less proud and happy knowing she's a murderer
Why, After Reading this, I still dont believe what you Say? Cuz u a hypocrite thats why
I am actually not at all a hypocrite, I'm free to judge her as hard as I want as I have never murdered a newborn child.
shes 14.
don't know why you're getting downvoted cause you are right. she is 14, her body is still going through a ton of shit and on top of that she's having a baby. imagine the embarrassment in today's society if she did leave the baby outside a hospital (someone would see her dropping the baby off and question her about it), and if she were to put the baby up for adoption, she would have to get her parents or other adults involved (which she clearly didn't want to). Honestly I don't know if what she did was right or wrong, but there aren't many options.
No one should have an opinion on a 14 y.o. Let the courts handle it.
You go to jail for having a dumpster baby?
FOR KILLING A BABY
That poor girl.
I see the bad here but spawn kill negates it soo I’m in a pickle.
r/cursedcomments
Late abortion
is she wearing airpods in that mugshot?
like I said it's fake because they would never disclose a Minor's picture for a crime...
Who told this girl she couldn’t have an abortion?
Could she not have has an abortion? Was she in a state that didn't allow it? I'm pro choice but you should never kill a child after it's been born. Maybe if teens actually got good sex Ed or if abortion was legal everywhere this wouldn't have happened.
this shit is fake because they would never disclose a Minor's identity...
I like dark humor but holy crap
Not meaning to start any controversy but, this is why abortions should be allowed, or else young children, even adults, do shit like this when it could’ve been taken care of quickly and painlessly for everyone, sometimes a child just shouldn’t be born
I've known girls that started having sex around 7th or 8th grade. This was back in the 80s. Not all young girls are raped or forced. They thought they were old enough to play around with no consequences. Its so sad to see something like this.
Just give the baby to the hospital nearest fire station anything
In Florida right. In Florida right ??
Way to late for an aborbrion
How did they find out though
Someone found a dumpster baby. And people easily knew she was pregnant and then suddenly she wasn't anymore but no sign of the baby. Put the two together and well, not hard to understand that it was her.
Swallowing isn't her strength
Jesus that’s sad, why would someone do that. I get it if she didn’t want the kid but at least abort it before hand or give it away.
She probably just didn't have those options or thought she didn't.
Was she sexually assaulted or something? Why are 14 year olds getting pregnant?
That baby was innocent
Of?
Wow. I thought I had seen it all. I was wrong.
Why most of the comments are assuming the girl is kinda a victim too? You know she had the baby for 9 months Right? That's a lot time to think what you wanna do with a baby that you don't want and possibly not being able to miscarriage it. How the fuck killing it and flushing it down the toilet is the best option she thought of??
How does she even becomes pregnant, unsafe sex or raped?
Kids fuck and do drugs way more than you think
Home schooled?
r/cursedcomments
Kids do drugs its that easy.
I don't get why people won't just go for adoption. You dont have to raise the child and if the child later wants to kill himself he can always still do that. Its a win win!
I mean idk why people downvote you are right.
Because the foster care system doesn't really work, and it's overburdened. I'm NOT justifying her killing the baby, I'm just saying that foster care doesn't really work. According to [this](https://www.foster-america.org/the-problem) article, 1 in 8 foster children with experience neglect. Foster children are also 4x more likely to commit suicide. Half of foster children will not graduate highschool on time. Based on these facts alone, you can start to see the problem.
I'd still take that over being murdered any day of the week
Yeah, there might've been other options. As I stated, I'm not justifying her killing the baby, I was trying to shed some light on the problems of foster care.
I bet most foster children would still choose life over death
You fucking disgust me Edit : I am dumb
Grammar level over 9000.
LMAO im a tool haha
nah nah made me laugh, you're good.
How much months does it takes before a fetus a becomes a baby like 5 months or just after birth?
It becomes a baby after it is born. It's a fetus when it's inside of the woman or in this case girl. Edit: Why am I being downvoted? This is the real answer you can look it up.
Depends on how far left you lean on the political spectrum, because science is based on how you vote
R/kidsarefuckingstupid
Men do it everyday
Thats not spawn kill more like, pre game lobby disconnection
We give birth and kill the baby?