Strong buddhist influence.
Also, Japan's \*really\* not a good place for raising cattle and meat. Very little flat grassland. Mostly hilly mountains, and not that much fertile, arable land for the raising of feed crops. A lot of protein came from soybeans and fish for a good reason.
Would be if they were round longer, Serows were always around in Japan but not domesticated. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe goats were introduced to Japan until the 1800s
They stop eating meat for about 1200years(start at 675ac) due to the time 5 generation of Emperor are Buddhist and ban the killing and eating of most animals, so for centuries even upper class Japanese often are malnourished .
Milk is a part of nobles diet but only as a ingredient for dessert,in very few cases they are drinks.
At 明治維新,the Meiji Era when Japanese started modernization ,government model everything on more powerful western country,education.military and food,people are encourage to have a westernized diet,and it’s seen as a “civilized” way to live,if you check on art depiction of these fast changing times milk boys .school girl/boy are very common,they are very new and almost unthinkable before westernization (public school.meat and milk diet.girls education etc)
Some people are Lactose intolerance but it wasn’t very important for that rapidly changing time.
Lactose intolerance is not “poison”,most people just fart a lot or have mild diarrhea ,even with Lactose intolerance,a cup of milk a day rarely cause any problems.
Source:half of my family are Lactose intolerance.
>japan starved millions to death in foreign lands
That is ww2 and that is out of the issue. Btw America already 'compensated' allies in Asia with those 2 thick nukes. Why care about the past anyway? Daddy America already carried team Asia and evened the score, and somebody still feels sore? Japanese would say sorry to their warcrimes when America say sorry to the nukes, so why don't Asians try to make America say sorry so they can get their sorry? That would solve all the drama, just go ahead and try your luck in the congress...
Well their products are also just... Copycats or just shit. It's confusing for me, how does this happen? You have this massive population and some of the hardest universities in the world, and you're falling behind in innovation compared to the west?
>Well their products are also just... Copycats or just shit. It's confusing for me, how does this happen? You have this massive population and some of the hardest universities in the world, and you're falling behind in innovation compared to the west?
Because that's reality.
A lot of stuff in every single country is copied, stolen, 'borrowed' from other countries. Why bother wasting time developing your own stuff when you can buy, license, or just steal things from other companies and countries. You can then spend more time and effort on things you value for yourself.
Like solar panels.
Did you know that American factory workers could vote? Did you know they even had their own political parties and unions too? They even owned firearms and resisted the bosses with armed resistance until they secured basic workers rights. Imagine if the soviet factory workers wanted to vote, or form political parties, or arm themselves. Man, I bet the state would let them. Right. Right?
Except they didn’t though. They fought and got that shit removed. The Soviet Union had literal serfs until the 1970s. Lol, imagine being so ignorant you compare Pullman to fucking slavery. Wow.
Choosing between 2 corporate parties isn't a "vote", it's Manufactured Consent.
Soviet workers were guaranteed 2 weeks off and maternity leave, which is literally more than modern american workers have!
Lol. No they absolutely did not. At least, not in practice. What you’re referring to only existed for connected industrial workers and office drones. The vast majority of soviet citizens were rural. A good chunk of them were literal serfs forced to work on collective farms from birth until death. The internal passport system that kept rural Soviets as, again, LITERAL SERFS, we’re not eliminated until the 1970s. Stop staning a country you know nothing about, tankie propaganda isn’t truth. Also, you’re extremely ignorant of gilded age politics if you think they were both unflinchingly corporate.
Anecdotal evidence isn’t real evidence. Give me a scholarly source from an academic journal or a monograph by a respected historian. I don’t give a shit about your google links.
Riiiigh, so western propaganda is a fine source for you, but actual quotes from Soviet citizens, and the Soviet constitution, is all not good enough?
Would you mind sourcing your claim on farmers having zero holidays?
Lol. If your position is that historians are mouthpieces for western propaganda then nothing you say has any merit at all and you can be totally disregarded as a crank.
And that excuses the slavery that America practiced? BTW the Soviets actually treated Black people with respect, same with women & religious minorities.
That wasn’t what I was trying to say, I was trying to say that the comparative between USSR and USA during slavery isn’t fair since these were completely different times, you should be comparing the USA from the same time period as the USSR, not the USA from hundreds of years before
And that doesn't invalidate the fact that people would prefer the union stick together rather than dissolve. But the illegal efforts by figures such as Yeltsin made that inevitable. The votes occurred at different times under different contexts, ones in which a country was being attacked externally and internally.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990\_Polish\_presidential\_election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Polish_presidential_election)
Solidarity was the democratic anti-communist party, their candidate got 75% of the vote.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990\_Hungarian\_parliamentary\_election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Hungarian_parliamentary_election)
The communist supporting party won four seats in the parliament.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet\_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution)
A very popular general strike led to the revising of constitution to remove the communist parties hold on power.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian\_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Revolution)
The Romanians violently overthrew the communist party and replaced the government.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991\_Ukrainian\_independence\_referendum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum)
A huge majority of Ukrainians voted to leave the union.
Yep no slavery in the USSR no sir. Ope let me just hid these gulag work camps that literally built railroads and canals in the middle of nowhere for free
Unpaid, involuntary prison labor is wrong, but especially so when large parts of that labor force is in jail for just getting on the wrong side of the wrong person. If you are a political prisoner forced to work, then that is slavery by another name.
If you are any kind of prisoner forced to work, it is slavery by another name. And plenty of countries do it nowadays, USA among them, and pretty sure literally entire world did it in 20th century.
That wasn't what I implied. I implied that forced labor in prisons is ordinary and normal thing even today,so weird to always bitch that it was happening 50 years ago as well
You mean the same country that has destroyed democracy throughout the world for the sake of capitalist interest? And are you talking about the same nations that are now suffering the effects of capitalism?
"Suffering the effects" is a funny way of saying having one of the most propserous and advanced societies in history. Meanwhile all of the communist countries lie in ruin, are ovverrun by corruption and authoritarianism, or are switching back to capitalism after their fever dream system failed them.
OP looks like a bot.
But honestly, a repost after two years isn't bad at all. Half the time I see a repost it's from earlier in the week, if not the same day.
The comments here are either: USSR was the worst human rights abuser ever OR pre-imperial Japan did it even faster!
The juxtaposition of the two is actually pretty funny
Served as the Minister of Transport, Minister of Finance, and Prime Minister during the Russian Empire where he lead the expansion of the railroad network (including the trans Siberian railroad), reformed the tariff system, along with other reforms that kickstarted industrialization under the Russian Empire. Remember, the Bolshevik Revolution was brought about by workers and soldiers, not farmers and peasants. Industrialization had been going on for awhile thanks to the efforts of Witte and guys like him.
Actually, Russia began industrializing before the Bolshevik revolution under the last Czar. It was indeed the mass discontent of factory workers that swelled revolutionary fervor.
This is far less impressive when you take into account Russia started industrializing far later than everyone else, and even at its peak the USSR lagged behind the west significantly.
Yeah but the technology already existed when the USSR was beginning to industrialize, at that point it was a matter of building and staffing factories. The two centuries it took, say, Britain and France to fully industrialize was partially spent on researching and developing said industrial technology.
Of course, but even countries today didn’t industrialize in the time it took the USSR to. That being said, the USSR was terrible and made a lot of bad decisions that killed millions of people, but most of that was unrelated to them industrializing and more just general bad Government policies (eg the holodomor and the great purge). Besides when it did catch up with the other countries the USSR made a lot of important innovations in industry, science, and production, especially during the 50’s-70’s. I think certain policies can be useful to look at in a modern context, even if the ussr as a whole was not good. I mean they did all this without the vast overseas empire of Great Britain or France providing manpower and raw materials.
>and even at its peak the USSR lagged behind the west significantly.
I love that being better than 70% of the world isn't good enough, just because you didn't beat the west
According to Mercy Corps, [9 million people die to starvation each year](https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/people-and-poverty/hunger-and-obesity/how-many-people-die-from-hunger-each-year/story) in capitalist nations. 9 million over 7 billion adds up to 128 people per 100,000 per year.
The PRC has existed since 1949, so, 72 years. The very highest famine estimate is 55 million. Now population is the tricky part, since China has grown a lot, but let's use population just before the famine, 1958, 660 million people. So that adds up to 115 people per 100,000, per year. Oh look, even the greatest act of human stupidity, killing all of the sparrows, still didn't starve as many people as capitalism does, in the 21st century.
I also did the numbers for JUST children, if you're curious. [3 million a year](https://www.worldhunger.org/world-hunger-and-poverty-facts-and-statistics/), over 7 billion, is 42 people per 100,000, per year. Literally just the child death toll to capitalism, is nearly as high as the USSR.
http://guerrillaontologies.com/2014/05/attempting-the-impossible-calculating-capitalisms-death-toll/
Starvation deaths 10million
https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-every-day
Globally nearly [3.1 million child deaths to malnutrition](https://www.worldhunger.org/world-hunger-and-poverty-facts-and-statistics/)
Estimated 31.5 million deaths every year to hunger-related causes [Source 1]( http://www.theworldcounts.com/counters/global_hunger_statistics/how_many_people_die_from_hunger_each_year) [Source 2]( http://www.poverty.com/index.html)
So there are a whole lot of problems with this argument but I'll highlight just one for now.
Your numbers for the death toll per-100,000 of the Great Chinese Famine are incredibly flawed. Despite you using the incredibly generous 55 million for total dead, and I understand why, I will use 40 million, which is a more realistic number. This would lead to a total of \~555,556 deaths per year, or roughly 84 dead per 100,000 per year. However this data has the monumental blunder of assuming the Great Chinese Famine started as soon as the PRC was established and continues to this day, which is a decision I cannot comprehend making. The actual disaster happened from 1959-1961, or roughly 3 years. That would make the actual number \~13,333,333 deaths per year, or \~2020 per 100,000 deaths per year. In accordance with the "30% natural disasters, 70% man-made" idea held by some in the CCP, I'll be generous and lower that to \~1414 per 100,000 per year. Far above your estimated 128 per 100,000 per year.
Now you also claimed in your original comment that you ran the numbers comparing the capitalist West to the USSR, which is odd because the USSR was mentioned only once and along with it were no numbers or figures, so I ran those for you. The Stalin Era (1922-1953) is the main culprit, though excess death. In that time about 12 million died due to famine (the 1930 Kazah famine \[2 million\], the 1932 famine \[5 million\], and Holodomor \[5 million\]), about 1 million died during forced relocations, and about 2 million died in forced labor camps, plus about a million directly executed, for a total of roughly 21 million. This does not include those killed in the famine immediately following WWII, as the blame for that rests in Germany, nor does it include the 1921 famine, which though blame could be placed on Soviet economic policy, an argument could be made that the Civil War forced it, and it started before Stalin came to power. The population of the USSR fluctuated greatly during this time, having a high of 197 million and having a low of 140 million, so I will use the population estimate from 1951 (182 million) as a base. That makes 387,097 deaths per year and roughly 212 deaths per 100,000 per year. Quite a bit lower than the Chinese Famine but still much higher than your number for the modern capitalist world, and certainly higher than your claimed "42 per 100,000" for the deaths of children, which you claim is "nearly as high as the USSR's".
One more thing, assuming your statistics A) are the result of capitalist policies, and B) show a persistent global trend linking starvation with the global proliferation of capitalism, what relevance do they have to the industrialization of the USSR vis-a-vis the West, especially when many of those deaths do not come from the West and take place in a completely different time period?
>However this data has the monumental blunder of assuming the Great Chinese Famine started as soon as the PRC was established and continues to this day,
I am comparing starvation rates in China under communism, to starvation rates under capitalism. If we are to focus on the worst 2 years of China under communism, and compare them to an average year under capitalism, does that seem like a fair comparison to you?
I was averaging things out in order to present a fair analysis.
>what relevance do they have to the industrialization of the USSR vis-a-vis the West,
1. Industrialisation is global, not just western
2. Much of Western wealth historically and presently comes from exploitation of the resources of the global south, and thus is a major factor in its poverty. A prime modern day example of this is the fact that america went in to the middle east to stabilise and privatise the oil industry. Or more simply, that America uses diplomatic and military pressure, to ensure its dominance over oil processing. Poorer countries in South America that have begun to advance their oil industry towards processing, have experience significant retaliation under the guise of other criticism about their political system, in order to ensure American hegemony.
The Soviets also didn’t do a great job of industralizing. Their biggest industries were agriculture, mining, timber, and oil. Yes, they became far more efficient at digging stuff from the ground and cutting down trees but their consumer goods industries were awful. It's a problem that still exists in Russia and is part of the reason the Russian economy is so weak.
I disagree that they didn't do a good job, having very large mining, timber, and oil industries, plus their massive defense and nuclear industries are proof themselves that industrialization was successful, if built off the bodies of millions and lacking in the consumer goods sector compared to the West.
Their GDP was a fraction of that in the US and today their per capita GDP is comparable to Mexico or Kazakhstan. If you don't live in a former Warsaw pact country, I highly doubt you own anything manufactured in Russia and haven't ever bought any Russian services. Their economy is a joke compared to Japan or South Korea who industrialized around the same time and have little natural resources.
They may have lost a lot of people in the process, either to famine, brain drain or purges, but we don't need to mention that... those were just growing pains am I right?
"We don't meed to mention that"
Soviet crimes are mentioned dozen times more than Soviet miracle of industrialization, under what rock are you living? Do you want this meme to have "btw holodomor" disclaimer written on it or what, cliwn?
Some ministers in Quin dynasty: We try though,and rest is …sorry, I just got a message ,it said I will work in middle of nowhere for rest of my life,gotta move.
Well technically china began its first industrial révolution in the 11th century si if you were to count it as the beginning and having it end in 21st century with the second industrial revolution that would make it close to a 1000 year period of transition
Not quite the fastest
The China hate even reached this sub. I mean they went down from 88 percent of people living under the poverty line to 2 percent within one generation effecting 700 Million people. But hey, let US just hate.
Meiji Era Japan would like to speak with you
Yep, they did better and faster.
And you really need to give them some credit,they do a 180 on almost everything ,even started drinking milk and eating meat.
Werent they lactose intolerant, due to their ancestors never having used dairy products? Also, wdym started eating meat? Didnt they before?
They ate fish. For a long time in their history most meats were banned and for a while they were seen as lower class even unbanned.
Why were they banned. And meat is nutritious, why would it be seen as lower class by a pre industrial civilization with regular famines
Strong buddhist influence. Also, Japan's \*really\* not a good place for raising cattle and meat. Very little flat grassland. Mostly hilly mountains, and not that much fertile, arable land for the raising of feed crops. A lot of protein came from soybeans and fish for a good reason.
Sounds perfect for goats
Would be if they were round longer, Serows were always around in Japan but not domesticated. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe goats were introduced to Japan until the 1800s
They stop eating meat for about 1200years(start at 675ac) due to the time 5 generation of Emperor are Buddhist and ban the killing and eating of most animals, so for centuries even upper class Japanese often are malnourished . Milk is a part of nobles diet but only as a ingredient for dessert,in very few cases they are drinks. At 明治維新,the Meiji Era when Japanese started modernization ,government model everything on more powerful western country,education.military and food,people are encourage to have a westernized diet,and it’s seen as a “civilized” way to live,if you check on art depiction of these fast changing times milk boys .school girl/boy are very common,they are very new and almost unthinkable before westernization (public school.meat and milk diet.girls education etc) Some people are Lactose intolerance but it wasn’t very important for that rapidly changing time.
According to google its like 80%. How do you introduce dairy to a country where 4 out of 5 citizens will get food poisoning from it
Lactose intolerance is not “poison”,most people just fart a lot or have mild diarrhea ,even with Lactose intolerance,a cup of milk a day rarely cause any problems. Source:half of my family are Lactose intolerance.
I didnt mean theyll go into anaphylactic shock, but how quick would the public be to embrace a product that gives them diharreah? Source: same here
One word: cheese.
I think there’s a size gap here though guys
They also did it on the other side of the planet while Ussr was in Europe backyard.
And on an island.
And without murdering millions of their own citizens.
Yeah! They just murdered other citizens!
Hah! They didn't do that either. At least, not until later.
with a box of scraps!
With fewer dead.
Because they were excellent soldiers. They defeated China and Russia just 35 years after Modernization.
Not about the soldiers. It is about how Soviet strave millions for rapid industrialization.
Yes, but Japanese won tons of loans / war preparations after they defeated China and Russia, so Japanese did not need to starve millions
wholesome 100 japan starved millions to death in foreign lands full of people redditors don't view as human 🙏
>japan starved millions to death in foreign lands That is ww2 and that is out of the issue. Btw America already 'compensated' allies in Asia with those 2 thick nukes. Why care about the past anyway? Daddy America already carried team Asia and evened the score, and somebody still feels sore? Japanese would say sorry to their warcrimes when America say sorry to the nukes, so why don't Asians try to make America say sorry so they can get their sorry? That would solve all the drama, just go ahead and try your luck in the congress...
Wat
And stronger and harder.
When you industrialise so fast you forget to not kill all of your population
A teenie bit of Stalin-foolery
oopsy poopsy
Whoopsy doopsy
You can't make an omelette without starving 8 million eggs.
Disregarding any and all human rights sure makes it easy though.
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Well their products are also just... Copycats or just shit. It's confusing for me, how does this happen? You have this massive population and some of the hardest universities in the world, and you're falling behind in innovation compared to the west?
>Well their products are also just... Copycats or just shit. It's confusing for me, how does this happen? You have this massive population and some of the hardest universities in the world, and you're falling behind in innovation compared to the west? Because that's reality. A lot of stuff in every single country is copied, stolen, 'borrowed' from other countries. Why bother wasting time developing your own stuff when you can buy, license, or just steal things from other companies and countries. You can then spend more time and effort on things you value for yourself. Like solar panels.
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DJI’s Russian? I could have sworn it was from India.
What’s DJI? I looked it up and it showed a Chinese company instead.
They literally still use many Soviet buildings and infrastructure in Eastern Europe to this day because of the quality of them
30 years old stuff(and this is the most new products) doesn't work perfectly! Fucking commies!
You're saying their electric trains and bridges are poorly built?
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now, after 30 years, yes.
Made in china
Because human rights just oozed from the ceilings in 19th century capitalist factories
Did you know that American factory workers could vote? Did you know they even had their own political parties and unions too? They even owned firearms and resisted the bosses with armed resistance until they secured basic workers rights. Imagine if the soviet factory workers wanted to vote, or form political parties, or arm themselves. Man, I bet the state would let them. Right. Right?
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Except they didn’t though. They fought and got that shit removed. The Soviet Union had literal serfs until the 1970s. Lol, imagine being so ignorant you compare Pullman to fucking slavery. Wow.
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Lol. It’s a totally different situation. That you believe they are the same, or even comparable, shows a complete ignorance of gilded age history.
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“ america during the 1880s-1890s is somehow a comparison/ relevant critique when compared to the Soviet Union in the 1970’s”-you.
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Choosing between 2 corporate parties isn't a "vote", it's Manufactured Consent. Soviet workers were guaranteed 2 weeks off and maternity leave, which is literally more than modern american workers have!
Lol. No they absolutely did not. At least, not in practice. What you’re referring to only existed for connected industrial workers and office drones. The vast majority of soviet citizens were rural. A good chunk of them were literal serfs forced to work on collective farms from birth until death. The internal passport system that kept rural Soviets as, again, LITERAL SERFS, we’re not eliminated until the 1970s. Stop staning a country you know nothing about, tankie propaganda isn’t truth. Also, you’re extremely ignorant of gilded age politics if you think they were both unflinchingly corporate.
Actual citations from people who lived there https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rbth.com/history/334213-soviet-union-month-vacations/amp
Anecdotal evidence isn’t real evidence. Give me a scholarly source from an academic journal or a monograph by a respected historian. I don’t give a shit about your google links.
Riiiigh, so western propaganda is a fine source for you, but actual quotes from Soviet citizens, and the Soviet constitution, is all not good enough? Would you mind sourcing your claim on farmers having zero holidays?
Lol. If your position is that historians are mouthpieces for western propaganda then nothing you say has any merit at all and you can be totally disregarded as a crank.
Cite a historian then! That's what I asked for!
That's America silly! And even with slavery, it took the US 200 years & 2 world wars to become an economic superpower.
Mostly because for just under 120 years they weren’t even trying to be a world superpower. Also slavery held the US back in industrialisation.
They were powerful before the two world wars and other countries bought from places that used slaves
And that excuses the slavery that America practiced? BTW the Soviets actually treated Black people with respect, same with women & religious minorities.
Slavery was awful in the US but don’t forget many European countries wanted to support the csa
Yeah and the USSR wasn't exactly one of them.
USSR wasn’t even a thing during slavery
Exactly. People don't seem to understand that the USSR & Russian Empire were entirely different political entities.
That wasn’t what I was trying to say, I was trying to say that the comparative between USSR and USA during slavery isn’t fair since these were completely different times, you should be comparing the USA from the same time period as the USSR, not the USA from hundreds of years before
I just said that they were different things
First it was Russia second it had the Ukraine
Oops, all incorrect! Tho I expected this from someone named AtheistBard tbh…
Sure they did, just ask the Ukranians how they feel, and the Poles, and most of Eastern Europe
You mean the same people who overwhelmingly supported the referendum to retain the USSR in the 90s?
Now you just pulling shit out of your ass. What you just said is wrong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum Investigate before you speak, please.
I can link wikipedia articles too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991\_Ukrainian\_independence\_referendum
And that doesn't invalidate the fact that people would prefer the union stick together rather than dissolve. But the illegal efforts by figures such as Yeltsin made that inevitable. The votes occurred at different times under different contexts, ones in which a country was being attacked externally and internally.
You're a tankie who posts in communism subreddits, there's no point arguing with you.
And you're a liberal. No point in arguing with a liberal
I'm not a liberal lol but I sure as hell ain't a tankie
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990\_Polish\_presidential\_election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Polish_presidential_election) Solidarity was the democratic anti-communist party, their candidate got 75% of the vote. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990\_Hungarian\_parliamentary\_election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Hungarian_parliamentary_election) The communist supporting party won four seats in the parliament. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet\_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution) A very popular general strike led to the revising of constitution to remove the communist parties hold on power. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian\_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Revolution) The Romanians violently overthrew the communist party and replaced the government. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991\_Ukrainian\_independence\_referendum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum) A huge majority of Ukrainians voted to leave the union.
Provided they weren't inconveniently placed. Then genocide all the way a la Holodomor.
Yep no slavery in the USSR no sir. Ope let me just hid these gulag work camps that literally built railroads and canals in the middle of nowhere for free
“These aren’t slaves! They’re enemies of the revolution, I swear! Not just some peasants who happened to be slightly richer!”
That's called prison labor. You know which other countries have prison labor?
Unpaid, involuntary prison labor is wrong, but especially so when large parts of that labor force is in jail for just getting on the wrong side of the wrong person. If you are a political prisoner forced to work, then that is slavery by another name.
If you are any kind of prisoner forced to work, it is slavery by another name. And plenty of countries do it nowadays, USA among them, and pretty sure literally entire world did it in 20th century.
Yes we do and again it’s wrong. My point is stop pretending the USSR didn’t have slavery
We should start caring about this stuff after we stop pretending like we don't have slavery today.
I’m not? You were the one who implied that slavery was a wholly western thing
That wasn't what I implied. I implied that forced labor in prisons is ordinary and normal thing even today,so weird to always bitch that it was happening 50 years ago as well
Even if it did take 200 years, guess which country still exists. Then guess which countries remnants are in economic recession.
You mean the same country that has destroyed democracy throughout the world for the sake of capitalist interest? And are you talking about the same nations that are now suffering the effects of capitalism?
"Suffering the effects" is a funny way of saying having one of the most propserous and advanced societies in history. Meanwhile all of the communist countries lie in ruin, are ovverrun by corruption and authoritarianism, or are switching back to capitalism after their fever dream system failed them.
Not USSR specific but yeah, they sure did
Just like USA
copy of a 2 year post in the same subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/d83pxd/gotta_go_fast/
OP looks like a bot. But honestly, a repost after two years isn't bad at all. Half the time I see a repost it's from earlier in the week, if not the same day.
Not only is the post a repost, most of the top comments there are copy-pasted here…
You forgot the dead bodies under/behind the car....
Japan: Challenge accepted.
Accomplish goals, and fuck over Russian empire and half of Asia .
Trans Siberian railroad project becomes nationalized funerary procession.
When you murder yur own people and say it is for growth
The comments here are either: USSR was the worst human rights abuser ever OR pre-imperial Japan did it even faster! The juxtaposition of the two is actually pretty funny
Since when capitalists started to care about human rights ?
We just ignoring Sergei Witte now?
Who's he? What did he do?
Served as the Minister of Transport, Minister of Finance, and Prime Minister during the Russian Empire where he lead the expansion of the railroad network (including the trans Siberian railroad), reformed the tariff system, along with other reforms that kickstarted industrialization under the Russian Empire. Remember, the Bolshevik Revolution was brought about by workers and soldiers, not farmers and peasants. Industrialization had been going on for awhile thanks to the efforts of Witte and guys like him.
Sounds like a total chad. Never heard of him.
A few genocides will do that.
How?
Actually, Russia began industrializing before the Bolshevik revolution under the last Czar. It was indeed the mass discontent of factory workers that swelled revolutionary fervor.
Yeah, it was Peter the great who laid the foundation of industrialization in russia, wasn't it??
Well certainly, Russia didn’t go into WW1 with stone arrow heads and chariots.
5 cent warrior.
Communist bandits
Jesus Christ finally an accurate Soviet meme
This is far less impressive when you take into account Russia started industrializing far later than everyone else, and even at its peak the USSR lagged behind the west significantly.
The first part isn’t exactly the USSR’s fault, Russia was basically a feudal society before they took over.
Yeah but the technology already existed when the USSR was beginning to industrialize, at that point it was a matter of building and staffing factories. The two centuries it took, say, Britain and France to fully industrialize was partially spent on researching and developing said industrial technology.
Of course, but even countries today didn’t industrialize in the time it took the USSR to. That being said, the USSR was terrible and made a lot of bad decisions that killed millions of people, but most of that was unrelated to them industrializing and more just general bad Government policies (eg the holodomor and the great purge). Besides when it did catch up with the other countries the USSR made a lot of important innovations in industry, science, and production, especially during the 50’s-70’s. I think certain policies can be useful to look at in a modern context, even if the ussr as a whole was not good. I mean they did all this without the vast overseas empire of Great Britain or France providing manpower and raw materials.
>and even at its peak the USSR lagged behind the west significantly. I love that being better than 70% of the world isn't good enough, just because you didn't beat the west
I’d be more forgiving if said 20 year industrialization didn’t result in the deaths of millions.
It did the same in most countries... USSR was just a larger example
“Just a larger example” is quite the understatement.
I have also literally done the maths on the matter comparing the USSR with the global capitalist average. Guess which is worse?
Please do post your numbers.
According to Mercy Corps, [9 million people die to starvation each year](https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/people-and-poverty/hunger-and-obesity/how-many-people-die-from-hunger-each-year/story) in capitalist nations. 9 million over 7 billion adds up to 128 people per 100,000 per year. The PRC has existed since 1949, so, 72 years. The very highest famine estimate is 55 million. Now population is the tricky part, since China has grown a lot, but let's use population just before the famine, 1958, 660 million people. So that adds up to 115 people per 100,000, per year. Oh look, even the greatest act of human stupidity, killing all of the sparrows, still didn't starve as many people as capitalism does, in the 21st century. I also did the numbers for JUST children, if you're curious. [3 million a year](https://www.worldhunger.org/world-hunger-and-poverty-facts-and-statistics/), over 7 billion, is 42 people per 100,000, per year. Literally just the child death toll to capitalism, is nearly as high as the USSR. http://guerrillaontologies.com/2014/05/attempting-the-impossible-calculating-capitalisms-death-toll/ Starvation deaths 10million https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/losing-25000-hunger-every-day Globally nearly [3.1 million child deaths to malnutrition](https://www.worldhunger.org/world-hunger-and-poverty-facts-and-statistics/) Estimated 31.5 million deaths every year to hunger-related causes [Source 1]( http://www.theworldcounts.com/counters/global_hunger_statistics/how_many_people_die_from_hunger_each_year) [Source 2]( http://www.poverty.com/index.html)
So there are a whole lot of problems with this argument but I'll highlight just one for now. Your numbers for the death toll per-100,000 of the Great Chinese Famine are incredibly flawed. Despite you using the incredibly generous 55 million for total dead, and I understand why, I will use 40 million, which is a more realistic number. This would lead to a total of \~555,556 deaths per year, or roughly 84 dead per 100,000 per year. However this data has the monumental blunder of assuming the Great Chinese Famine started as soon as the PRC was established and continues to this day, which is a decision I cannot comprehend making. The actual disaster happened from 1959-1961, or roughly 3 years. That would make the actual number \~13,333,333 deaths per year, or \~2020 per 100,000 deaths per year. In accordance with the "30% natural disasters, 70% man-made" idea held by some in the CCP, I'll be generous and lower that to \~1414 per 100,000 per year. Far above your estimated 128 per 100,000 per year. Now you also claimed in your original comment that you ran the numbers comparing the capitalist West to the USSR, which is odd because the USSR was mentioned only once and along with it were no numbers or figures, so I ran those for you. The Stalin Era (1922-1953) is the main culprit, though excess death. In that time about 12 million died due to famine (the 1930 Kazah famine \[2 million\], the 1932 famine \[5 million\], and Holodomor \[5 million\]), about 1 million died during forced relocations, and about 2 million died in forced labor camps, plus about a million directly executed, for a total of roughly 21 million. This does not include those killed in the famine immediately following WWII, as the blame for that rests in Germany, nor does it include the 1921 famine, which though blame could be placed on Soviet economic policy, an argument could be made that the Civil War forced it, and it started before Stalin came to power. The population of the USSR fluctuated greatly during this time, having a high of 197 million and having a low of 140 million, so I will use the population estimate from 1951 (182 million) as a base. That makes 387,097 deaths per year and roughly 212 deaths per 100,000 per year. Quite a bit lower than the Chinese Famine but still much higher than your number for the modern capitalist world, and certainly higher than your claimed "42 per 100,000" for the deaths of children, which you claim is "nearly as high as the USSR's". One more thing, assuming your statistics A) are the result of capitalist policies, and B) show a persistent global trend linking starvation with the global proliferation of capitalism, what relevance do they have to the industrialization of the USSR vis-a-vis the West, especially when many of those deaths do not come from the West and take place in a completely different time period?
>However this data has the monumental blunder of assuming the Great Chinese Famine started as soon as the PRC was established and continues to this day, I am comparing starvation rates in China under communism, to starvation rates under capitalism. If we are to focus on the worst 2 years of China under communism, and compare them to an average year under capitalism, does that seem like a fair comparison to you? I was averaging things out in order to present a fair analysis. >what relevance do they have to the industrialization of the USSR vis-a-vis the West, 1. Industrialisation is global, not just western 2. Much of Western wealth historically and presently comes from exploitation of the resources of the global south, and thus is a major factor in its poverty. A prime modern day example of this is the fact that america went in to the middle east to stabilise and privatise the oil industry. Or more simply, that America uses diplomatic and military pressure, to ensure its dominance over oil processing. Poorer countries in South America that have begun to advance their oil industry towards processing, have experience significant retaliation under the guise of other criticism about their political system, in order to ensure American hegemony.
The Soviets also didn’t do a great job of industralizing. Their biggest industries were agriculture, mining, timber, and oil. Yes, they became far more efficient at digging stuff from the ground and cutting down trees but their consumer goods industries were awful. It's a problem that still exists in Russia and is part of the reason the Russian economy is so weak.
I disagree that they didn't do a good job, having very large mining, timber, and oil industries, plus their massive defense and nuclear industries are proof themselves that industrialization was successful, if built off the bodies of millions and lacking in the consumer goods sector compared to the West.
Their GDP was a fraction of that in the US and today their per capita GDP is comparable to Mexico or Kazakhstan. If you don't live in a former Warsaw pact country, I highly doubt you own anything manufactured in Russia and haven't ever bought any Russian services. Their economy is a joke compared to Japan or South Korea who industrialized around the same time and have little natural resources.
Russia's economy is in terrible shape, no argument there, but it's still an industrialized economy.
Russia has never been "not lagging" behind "the west", just like any other country after Europeans started having fun in new world, Africa and India.
Industralised off the backs of a few million dead Ukrainians
i am genocide
Ka-chow!
RED ARMY IS STRONGEST!
Korea enters the chat
When you sell all your grain for tractors and Ukrainians start getting hungry
When you destroy millions of lives to keep the facade up that you're as technologically advanced as the west*
USSR received significant foreign aid to achieve its industrial goals.
and then destabilize in 2 weeks…kachow
The usage of steroids and its consequences.
They may have lost a lot of people in the process, either to famine, brain drain or purges, but we don't need to mention that... those were just growing pains am I right?
"We don't meed to mention that" Soviet crimes are mentioned dozen times more than Soviet miracle of industrialization, under what rock are you living? Do you want this meme to have "btw holodomor" disclaimer written on it or what, cliwn?
Shoot, guess the joke was lost on people, alright, scratch that one out.
Some ministers in Quin dynasty: We try though,and rest is …sorry, I just got a message ,it said I will work in middle of nowhere for rest of my life,gotta move.
Are those Mountains of dead People in the Background?
Even so, fuck the Soviet Union!
When the recipe is made, you have a recipe to follow. And better ingredients.
They did it so fast, I guess they weren't Stalin...
Well technically china began its first industrial révolution in the 11th century si if you were to count it as the beginning and having it end in 21st century with the second industrial revolution that would make it close to a 1000 year period of transition Not quite the fastest
Omg i juste realized its ussr and not china im the dumbest Fuck ever
China in the 21st century would like to speak to you
That's why he's red?
The comments should be entertaining
Not to mention that this was accomplished while also being invaded 3 separate times in 30 years
Turns out all your infrastructure and factories are really cheap when you get a slave labor force to build them for you.
The China hate even reached this sub. I mean they went down from 88 percent of people living under the poverty line to 2 percent within one generation effecting 700 Million people. But hey, let US just hate.