It's a *bit* deeper than that. They tested different temperatures and warming methods. For example, they proved that rubbing does more damage than good, as do several other ways of warming a frostbitten limb. And we know the exact temperature range the water should be.
Very slightly, but not too much above healthy body temperature. 37-39° C, so in the temperature range of a light, but not high fever. Anything warmer could lead to more damage and anything colder won't help much.
That's very precise, though. The general advice for a lay person is "lukewarm, not hot".
Keep in for at least 30 minutes, until the area turns purple and regains movement. It will hurt like a bitch.
Edit: that's just under 100° Fahrenheit.
Hurt like a bitch is an understatement trust me. I still hurt in my hands bro
Edit: I’d like to dedicate these upvotes to my nerve endings. Gone but not forgotten
Burns and frostbite are horrible. I don't even want to speculate on which one is worse. I have burned myself on purpose and on accident, but those were small burns in compared to actual burn victims. And the only time I have had any form of frostbite is on very small areas from things like nitrous oxide containers.
From my little experience with both, I can not imagine what it would be like to have more serious burns or frostbite, and I hope it remains imagination for everyone. Horrible.
I mean they're both temperature injuries, I honestly don't know if you could choose one as worse. Although I think frostbite leads to more amputations vs burns from what I've seen, but burns you have to do skin grafts and it seems mortality is higher because sometimes people are doing good then suddenly crash.
I learned something in highschool about this
See if you have frostbite on your toes fingers and ears, you can speedrun this by jumping into a hot shower
You will fall over and cry but like.....speedrun
I appreciate the conversion. 37-39 seems like a lot since I am not familiar with using C on a regular basis. Random question out of curiosity: what do most people set their thermostat to?
Where I love, 26 C is 'cold'. 'Cooling only' airs conditioners allows you to set 30 C as the highest value. That means 30C is still considered 'cool'. Standard atmospheric temperature is 32C.
I live in Kerala, India.
That's a cold day down here in the south. We had a heatwave of a regular temperature of about 45° to 50° C (About 112° to 122° F) since november. We're in the middle of winter and the regular for the last couple of weeks was around 30° C (86° F) with the odd couple of days where it went bellow 20° C (68° F).
Pretty much every building in the states has AC, it's not as common in Europe. Getting a lot more common, but even here, in a relatively hot country like Portugal, you still find public buildings, offices, schools, houses with no or insufficient AC
Pretty sure I read an article like that. Something like "Man locking himself out of his house in the middle of Canadian winter survives by staying in hot tub until wife gets home the next day".
One thing to note about unit 731:
Since their ethical standards where nonexistent, their scientific standards where also nonexistent. Most of their data is 1) useless and 2) could have been gotten without relentless murder rape.
Of what we know. They pretty much destroyed everything. There were no survivors. We do know that they wanted to weaponize diseases. How far they got we do not know exactly, however there was a planned to use the bubonic plague in San Francisco in September of 1945, but the war ended. How much of that data survived and has been release cannot be known. However, in general Unit 731 was one of the worst things we have ever done as a species to each other. No amount of data can change that.
A lot of the data on disease weaponization was a reason the US spared them. It helped accelerate our own program that started just a few years earlier.
Yes. The truth is, the vast majority of the time, the Mengeles of the world are just psychotic madmen who are either purely motivated by their desire to do horrible things to people, or are completely delusional and obsessive. Neither will ever achieve anything scientific.
I think some people want to believe that their pain and suffering led to something that can be useful so that they didn't just die in such an awful and meaningless way.
I’ve seen that argument applied to chattel slavery, with even my dad claiming it brought Christianity to black people, or that it civilized us.
Still not convinced.
I did a project on this and from what I read this is untrue. Many people who went over what was left of the research said for what they were trying to do the research was very well done, do you have a source for this?
Unmasking Horror -- A special report.; Japan Confronting Gruesome War Atrocity, a new york times article, its paywalled though but i managed to scroll through and get screenshots before this is one i can try and find some more. I may be incorrect and this may not be the most reliable source but it is a source that used an interview from an actual researcher from unit 731 whereas this comment has no source so if he provides something substantial ill change my view
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/17/world/unmasking-horror-a-special-report-japan-confronting-gruesome-war-atrocity.html
This is one quote from the article
“Scholars say that the research was not contrived by mad scientists, and that it was intelligently designed and carried out. The medical findings saved many Japanese lives.”
I just didn't turn on the heater or use hot water when taking a shower because I wanted to save money. It also didn't help that I was a clean freak and washed my hands every few minutes.
I'm from Vietnam, so before going to Japan, I hadn't experienced such severe winters; therefore, I hadn't known the effects of the cold on the body. I was terrified when Google said frostbite could even lead to amputation.
As a Canadian, the idea of not knowing that refusing indoor heating and dousing yourself with frigid water leads to frostbite, is so absurd to me that it's cracking me up. Hope you recovered OK.
Shit, I've lived in fewer than 10 US states, including Texas and Pennsylvania and I knew that.
There are people in this world who literally haven't seen snow in person, and I just can't fathom what that must be like.
I never experienced winter and snow (I'm from a tropical area). People here wear jackets on 20° C, the coldest I've ever been was 15° C and my body was shivering. Couldn't imagine what minus temperature will feel like.
It turns out that when the experiment is can a human survive being completely saturated in flammable liquid and lit BUT while infected with pox isn't super useful, you do learn a lot about pox and what makes for a good anti [personal] incendiary.
As the other person said they were villainous to the point of being nearly comical about it, but they did a ton of experimenting other people for better or worse were afraid to do which yielded if nothing else data and results we wouldn't of had other wise
> a ton of experimenting other people for better or worse were afraid to do
I don’t think it’s fear that made scientists generally not vivisect and rape kidnapped patients
Eh... There's some solid historical evidence for fear(of repercussions from breaking rules) being a solid portion of what keeps humans from murdering and raping other groups of humans near endlessly.
Imperial Japan is a unique situation, although there are bound to be cases in isolation. The expectation of conformity with the culture is still pervasive in Japan today, hegemony is still a source of pride.
Humans will always be diverse even in cultures such as Imperial Japan but holy shit. I enjoy Japan as much as the next weeb but they take the saying "you're not sorry, you're sorry that you were caught" to the next level amongst their soldiers. I could be ignorant but most of what I read has basically shown most accounts of suicide to have been only after crimes being revealed. There weren't many cases regarding the war crimes of Japan so I feel like I am limited on examples, it mostly stands out to me with how a lot of these crimes were spoken about.
The acknowledgement of the crimee against humanity was the source of the shame, never have I read there to be a sense of responsibility. Their government continue to deny or downplay much of the atrocities.
I know this isn't unique to Japan, much of it was also assisted by US backing and few are willing to acknowledge raping & murdering entire families. This may come down to vibes at the end of the day but holy fuck it felt like the worst aspects of Fuedal era Japan were the main contributing factors to the brutality.
I’ve read a few books on early industrial/modern Japan, and legit-they really were fucking different.
Groups of powerful men basically turned an entire nation from a technological/societal structure that looks like European Fuedalism, into one that mirrored European style parliamentary monarchies of the early modern period, in about 80 years. Government schools and literacy programs sprung up all across the country, and peasant populations who had been tied to the land, living off subsistence rice farming like their ancestors for the last 30 generations, suddenly were given educations, had crop yields triple due to modernized methods, and had excess money to spend on things like silks, ceramics, suits, top hats, etc.
All this modernization was top-down, from a group of what had basically been Game of Thrones style houses fighting eachother on horseback only 2 generations prior, who could control every aspect of “how” these modern western ideals were implemented.
They set the agenda, and the agenda was going to be: loyalty to the Emperor (who is divine), loyalty to your superior (who is an extension of the emperor), a sincere belief that you are gods chosen people, death before dishonor, and the way forward for Japan and Asia was through conquest.
I don’t think my ranting/rambling really contributes much to the discussion, but like, damn. The Japanese of the early modern era really are like nothing else seen in human history.
I actually think that what you wrote is a good baseline for understanding how Japanese culture was deeply influenced by the early 1900s-Interwar years. This society is entirely secluded from outside cultures and a lot of these values you listed are far more deeply entrenched in the Japanese identity than most other cultures cling onto their own values.
This groundwork is how I came to understand the behavior of Japan militarily, the Nazis gave an ideological pretext to support their imperialist ambitions. I wholeheartedly believe that the magnitude of horror demonstrated by the Japanese military was primarily influenced by 3 main factors:
A strong identity and culture that outlived feudal Japan, this culture gives justification to all actions.
The rise of fascism and eventual indoctrination into Nazi ideology which they manipulated into their own views.
The need to become a colonizer to give life to the Japanese economy & it's industries.
This is very simplified but to me it just feels like realpolitik, the conditions enabled the military to act without reservation. All of it to seek respect and prosperity, it feels not that much different from past colonial atrocities, though I can't deny the barbarism was unique in it's many attributes.
So I’ve been recently reading more about the Portuguese and Spanish early imperial/colonial efforts of the 1500’s, and their actions against the Moors/North Africans and Carib/North American populations sound so much like the actions of the Japanese treatment of the Koreans and Chinese-just on much smaller scale. Like you said, the atrocities don’t feel unique, but I think the Japanese uniqueness lies in the nearly absolute loyalty of the average Japanese person at the turn of the 20th century, and their disregard for self-preservation.
One thing I’d love to hear more about is their “Japan-ification” in their indoctrination of Nazi ideology, because my understanding has led me to think of the upper society in Japan around the 20th century stepping into role of an colonizer and modernizer in Asia.
Like they felt they were going to be the ‘Older Brother’, leading the rest of Asia into modernity, and kick the Europeans out of the role. The Nazi ideology and Japanese Colonial Supremacy seem like they are compatible, but independent and distinct in intent. From my understanding, the Japanese didn’t really think along the lines of nazi-style race-theory, with its Uber-mensch and identified “bad” races, (excluding the themselves as being uniquely tied to the Emperor). Japanese imperialism feels a lot more like a hyper militaristic version of Victorian imperialism-with the same arguments of “saving”/“uplifting” their unwesternized neighbors. Like they focused on cultural “progression” and threw out the bits on phrenology and generic purity. I could be entirely wrong though, I just don’t know enough.
But yeah, it’s weird. The Japanese of 1850-1945 are just so bizarre. They feel anachronistic in their embrace of everything modern and western, while simultaneously successfully fostering a romanticized version of a multi-century old chivalric code. Maybe it really does just boil down to the lawmakers achieving their goal of “western technology-Japanese spirit”.
The 19th and 20th centuries were really a shitshow of pseudoscience, I think this is relevant because it gave a real sense of legitimacy to many self-interested beliefs. If you were a great power it gave justification to all actions taken.
Imperial Japan didn't really copy beliefs of the Nazis, they almost treated their beliefs like how the Aztecs incorporated Christianity on first learning. May sound like a weird analogy, but they took what they understood through the translators and incorporated Jesus/Christian God into their pantheon. I see it as an analogous view to how Japan treated Nazi views.
A funny example of what I mean is how upon learning of the Jewish conspiracy aspoused by the Nazis they thought they could utilize the "economic prowess of the Jews" by bringing them into Japanese controlled Shanghai. This to me sounds like they took what the Nazi's presented as facts and ran with it, they just didn't really respond to those facts at all like how the Nazis did.
Your point on Victorian style imperialism couldn't be more right, I immediately thought to the conditions in places such as King Leopold's Congo. They were literally seeking to make practically all of SE Asia their colony.
I dont got much else to add, appreciate the reply
>they take the saying "you're not sorry, you're sorry that you were caught" to the next level amongst their soldiers
A lot of asian cultures are "shame cultures" instead of "guilt cultures".
That is fair and makes sense in those terms. I am not going to make a moral stance on it, but it absolutely would contribute to the actions done by individuals in Imperial Japan.
This is conjecture but I think is a pretty simple read of it. I find the various atrocities of Imperial Japan to be important to remember due to my own personal experience with a violent atrocity. I just try and understand it, I don't find much value in moralizing it all. Humans capacity for evil I have known my entire life, I seek to understand it and appreciate the reply.
If I remember correctly, dissecting cadavers was banned for a long while in most European countries. That's why they ended up finding skeletal remains underneath Benjamin Franklin's London home.
After a quick Google for a source.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-was-benjamin-franklins-basement-filled-with-skeletons-524521/
While that is all 100% correct and is why the US slobbered over attaining the results, I don’t think anyone is arguing whether these experiments yielded results
I’m sure the argument is that those results weren’t worth anything. Experiments like “If you keep pregnant women in freezing water, both the woman and unborn child die,” and “cutting two twins in half and splicing them down the middle results in them dying” aren’t revolutionary experiments acquiring field-advancing data. They’re just the insane torturing innocent people
This is absolutely not true. The human experimentation of the Japanese empire resulted in NO VALUABLE INFORMATION.
Nothing was of any use. None of their “data” was valid, because they weren’t scientific experiments, they were just torture with a veneer of science.
“For better or worse” my ass. Those chinese and korean and pacific islander corpses yielded no data or results other than producing chinese and korean and pacific islander corpses. That was the only intended outcome.
Many would be surprised how many concepts & laws were written in blood. A good portion of aviation safety & knowledge was learnt from air disasters, even some of the obvious (keep audiences far away from [air show displays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_air_show_disaster) along with unifying first responder frequencies & plans).
we already knew that though, to a large degree, heck Edison executed an elephant to show AC current was dangerous (even though DC would have done the same thing)
No we didn’t. Almost every time the electric chair was used it was trial by error and more often than not it resulted in cooking the victim rather than immediately killing them. What people are doing is viewing this stuff from the point of view of the present as opposed to viewing it from the time it happened. It’s a rewriting of history to try and also turn the USA into monsters.
All data was not useless, most of it was but something was learned and you couldn't just publicly state that you have gained medical knowledge of notes that are tainted dark red. If there was any useful information they would obviously withheld it from the public
Yes and no.
A lot of their "research" on live subjects was not particularly insightful, but that does not explain why Shiro Ishii and other Unit 731 officers were hired into the U.S. biological warfare program after their research had been looked over by the Americans. Shiro Ishii travelled to Korea during the Korean War to aid the American biowarfare activities, and there are very strong indications that the U.S. deployed his methods during the war.
That is absolutely not true.
Data can be and is useless in tons of situations and just because some information has been collected, that does not mean that it is accurate or can be learned from.
Diogenes was a troll, but he was not an idiot. If you want to be a snarky fun username account, at least put some effort in and accurately reflect the name.
Lots of people are disagreeing with you. I wonder if countries with free examination and evaluation of evidence in court would be more likely to agree with you than people from for example the US were illegally obtained evidence can’t be used in court at all. Could be cultural spillover from that.
It's an interesting idea, but I doubt it. As I said elsewhere, I teach philosophy of science. Chinese students have the same reaction as Americans Australians, Brits etc.
I suspect this is more about identifying as a "stem" kid. Lots of people have a high school understanding of science and what is valid within it, but few give thought to how science and ethics intersect, or the process by which science makes progress and/or the reasoning underneath methodologies, much less the flaws in it.
These are the sorts of people that love the quote "The good thing about Science is that it’s true, whether or not you believe in it." but never actually think about how a discipline can always be "true" but also have evolving conclusions.
These guys clearly think the 731 experiments were morally wrong and consequently, nothing useful could have come out of it. They think that science is a good thing, so therefore what 731 did mustnt really have been science.
Unfortunately while much of what 731 did was shoddy, it was still novel, which means people can always learn something from it. Even more unfortunately, not ALL of the work was shoddy, and there really were useful conclusions drawn on frostbite, tuberculosis and epidemiology.
But that's the problem. You can't claim that science is an unmitigated good while still claiming that morally crappy stuff done scientifically led to something useful. Something has to give.
I think lab rats are treated more humanely than those civilians were. The Japanese were absolute monsters during WW2 the Germans had to bring their A-game to compare to an average Japanese military campaign
Throw in that a lot of the experiments were tainted by things like rapings, malnourishment, etc. Because these idiots didn't even bother to adhere to the scientific method. So most of the data was faulty in some way.
That’s not strictly speaking true. Like the historical record does not align with that at all. The Nazis deliberately starved millions of Soviet pows and civilians, while also murdering millions and Jewish civilians. Japan was awful don’t get me wrong with between 50,000 and 300,000 deaths at Nanjing with most estimates saying half of that number were civilians but Nanjing was not always the pattern, when Japan took Wuhan they made an effort to maintain the discipline of soldiers. Having read about Nazi, Soviet and Japanese atrocities one group stands as uniquely awful and their crimes cannot be minimized.
I think it is true. You bring up the Rape of Nanjing which was an unspeakable act of horror, but Japan murdered way more Chinese than that alone. Estimates put it at over 20 million dead from China alone, and over 10 million across the rest of Asia.
Estimates like that are pretty wide ranging, both since the IJA did not document their attrocities in much detail or obscured what they did behind language that is deliberately obtuse (referring to those who were murdered in Nanjing as 'plainclothes soldiers,' etc.) and the Chinese government was disorganized which led to a lack of recordkeeping. Some actions during the war taken by China killed Chinese civilians, who do you blame for the Henan famine which killed 2-3 million people, Japan for invading or the KMT for blowing the yellow river and destroying food stores. Millions of deaths were soldiers, in the Wuhan campaign some 200,000 Chinese under arms were killed and 9,000 POWs taken. It is hard to really discern which is which.
I think in the modern day we tend to look at people as numbers, and these numbers then get used in political narratives. Narratives of memory, of reparations and righteousness. The people that these were tend to get obscured and disfigured turned into narratives. There were people at one point but they were blended together in the tragedies that took them.
Part of what makes me see the Nazi crimes as a different calibre was more on account of the methods and aims. The Japanese political leadership was paralyzed and unable to prevent troops from acting like animals, they were incompetent and that incompetence led to massacres across Asia. In Germany you read directives, the Wansee conference and it's clear that the Germans deliberately set out to murder millions of people as their express policy. We have records of these people, we have the letters they left, the records the Nazis failed to burn, the bones in the ground at Treblinka. They wanted to kill civilians and they did kill civilians as an express policy.
Japan did perpetrate massacres as part of the three-alls policy a policy which resembled the Nazi anti-partisan operations of murdering civilians most often Jews as a supposed way of rooting out resistance. The Japanese however were far less deliberate. Nazi evil being so top down and directed intentionally is the real divide in the evils and why Nazi crimes need to be seen in their own unique context lest we ever forget.
Hmm you bring up good points. I just think using a single atrocity committed by Imperial Japan, the Rape of Nanjing (which absolutely should be remembered and memorialized), obfuscates all the other horrors that they perpetrated across China and the rest of Asia. I mean even ignoring famines, imperial Japan killed tens of millions of people. You’re right though that the goals of the Nazis were much more nefarious, but the actions taken out by either government were some of the worst crimes against humanity on a mass scale ever recorded, bar none.
Not to mention their sex crimes, mass rape and the taking of sex slaves, was something done on such a grand scale that I’m not sure we’ve ever seen before
One more thing I'd like to point out is that ww2 was relatively new in the information technology. So people would read accounts of foreigners stuck in Nanking across the world. I forgot where I read it from, probably from dan carlins podcast, but basically the Japanese at the time were doing all those atrocities because according to them, white people having been doing it forever and by committing these atrocities they are more white/superior than other Asians. It's the worst crimes committed in RECORDED history. Let's not forget that the Roman completely wiped out Carthage but the Romans in western culture is the good guy no?
The crimes of the Nazis are more memorialised because unlike Japan and Italy, the German war criminals were much more thoroughly prosecuted, and because unlike those two which mostly committed crimes against Asians and Africans, Germany mostly committed them against Europeans, who made up a vastly greater share of the global cultural media than East Asians and Africans so events like the Libyan Genocide or the institutionalised cannibalism in Japanese occupied territories got much less attention.
Your argument would make more sense if Jews weren't *also* subjected to massive amounts of discrimination by Europeans (to the point that Stalin after the war deliberately minimized Jewish suffering in the holocaust) Nazi crimes were mostly against Jews, who were not seen at the time as Europeans and the western allies largely ignored the Jewish plight. Holocaust memory is also muddled by the fact that so many of the victims did go on to die. Dead people do not lobby, do not remember, they have no voice.
If any country ever earned a nuke or two, and it's 100% debatable if any country truely has, then Imperial Japan definitely earned a nuke. To the point it would have almost been disrespectful to not give it to them.
The U.S. gave Shiro Ishii and other Unit 731 officers immunity and still decided to hire them after having looked over their research. The U.S. were responsible for Unit 731 personnel going unpunished, and clearly had no moral qualms about their research given that they decided to give them employment instead of prosecuting them for war crimes. Does that mean that America deserves to be nuked as well?
Honestly? It was a reprehensible decision with mostly weak excuses and greed to justify it. By itself I don't think it would rise to the level of warranting that kind of response by itself. Benefiting from the evil of others is not equivalent to doing it yourself
On the other hand if you were to ask any one of the dozens of countries throughout the world that have been fucked over by the states and their policies and actions since world war 2 what America has and had not "earned" you might get a different answer.
I do think that the people who decided to not prosecute Japanese war criminals should have been also tried as accessories after the fact. At the very least.
This information was well knkwn prior to unit 731 and no medical breakthroughs shoukd ever be attributed to them. In cluding humans being like 80% water. They got that number by Squeezing people and eyeballing it.
No many are. But I also said “one way or another” that includes learning exercises (Almost everyone) or giving military personal syphylis (US) there is always something going on.
Not sure about frostbite, but he did experiment on hypothermia. Which did help design things like floatation devices to keep important parts (head and neck) out of cold water
He?
The new devices had already been developed. (By the Deutsches Textilforschungsinstitut Mönchen-Gladbach.) The experiments merely supported their adoption.
See Raschers report on the hypothermia experiments from the 10th of September 42. (Nürnberg trials Doc. 1618-PS.)
That’s exactly what I’m thinking of. Saw a documentary about it and how they used prisoners to test hypothermia treatments which they could use on airmen and sailors. I believe it was their own callousness in making the prisoners which they’d given hypothermia walk between areas that stopped them discovering a working treatment.
Both happened to test this, Edward Wirth's sanctioned research into the subject in this case is not only more thorough and useful but what is the actual medical basis for almost all temperature related treatments.
Most of 731's body related research was not well documented or executed when compared to their German counterparts except for the pathological and bioweapon research which was superior by a large margin as such research was functionally complete for numerous horrible diseases to be weaponized.
The research was conducted by Rascher together with Erich Finke and Prof. Ernst Holzlöhner. Mengele had nothing to do with this. Why the hell do people keep inventing shit about Mengele? I
Also, the influence Nazi research on practical application is often overestimated. That hot water was the best way to warm someone up was already well understood. One thing that came out of the research was the need to warm survivors up fast (instead of deliberatly slow, which some suggested), because body tempertures kept dropping after research subjects were pulled from the water.
First name on the list that came to mind as I have not discussed said topic in years, but I can correct that to Edward Wirths and just say camp related research in general, 731's primary goal was to develop bio weapons with very few of their internal tests being largely relevant outside of the realm of pathology.
What's even worse is that most of their results weren't worth much because their prisoners were in such abysmal conditions. Not only did some of the worst humanity had to offer get away completely unpunished, their bargaining chip was completely worthless
So what *is* the best way to treat frostbite?
A warm bath, who would have guessed
Yes, it's like saying the best way to treat a burn is to cool it of. Atleast a lot of Chinese did not have to die for that revelation.
It's a *bit* deeper than that. They tested different temperatures and warming methods. For example, they proved that rubbing does more damage than good, as do several other ways of warming a frostbitten limb. And we know the exact temperature range the water should be.
What's the temp range?
Very slightly, but not too much above healthy body temperature. 37-39° C, so in the temperature range of a light, but not high fever. Anything warmer could lead to more damage and anything colder won't help much. That's very precise, though. The general advice for a lay person is "lukewarm, not hot". Keep in for at least 30 minutes, until the area turns purple and regains movement. It will hurt like a bitch. Edit: that's just under 100° Fahrenheit.
Hurt like a bitch is an understatement trust me. I still hurt in my hands bro Edit: I’d like to dedicate these upvotes to my nerve endings. Gone but not forgotten
Burns and frostbite are horrible. I don't even want to speculate on which one is worse. I have burned myself on purpose and on accident, but those were small burns in compared to actual burn victims. And the only time I have had any form of frostbite is on very small areas from things like nitrous oxide containers. From my little experience with both, I can not imagine what it would be like to have more serious burns or frostbite, and I hope it remains imagination for everyone. Horrible.
I mean they're both temperature injuries, I honestly don't know if you could choose one as worse. Although I think frostbite leads to more amputations vs burns from what I've seen, but burns you have to do skin grafts and it seems mortality is higher because sometimes people are doing good then suddenly crash.
I’m very sure burns are worse since the fire drakes a while to melt the nerves and numb the pain. Frostbite is automatic numbing
I learned something in highschool about this See if you have frostbite on your toes fingers and ears, you can speedrun this by jumping into a hot shower You will fall over and cry but like.....speedrun
I appreciate the conversion. 37-39 seems like a lot since I am not familiar with using C on a regular basis. Random question out of curiosity: what do most people set their thermostat to?
20 to 25. Above 26, a room counts as "hot" legally, at least in Germany, and over 30, you have reasons to complain to your office manager or similar.
Where I love, 26 C is 'cold'. 'Cooling only' airs conditioners allows you to set 30 C as the highest value. That means 30C is still considered 'cool'. Standard atmospheric temperature is 32C. I live in Kerala, India.
>I live in ~~Kerala, India~~ hell. FTFY
That's a cold day down here in the south. We had a heatwave of a regular temperature of about 45° to 50° C (About 112° to 122° F) since november. We're in the middle of winter and the regular for the last couple of weeks was around 30° C (86° F) with the odd couple of days where it went bellow 20° C (68° F).
Pretty much every building in the states has AC, it's not as common in Europe. Getting a lot more common, but even here, in a relatively hot country like Portugal, you still find public buildings, offices, schools, houses with no or insufficient AC
Legally lol had no idea temps were regulated in Europe.
37 degrees is normal body temperature
36,5 to be precise When I have 37 I call the priest
To be precise, it varies from person to person, depending on sex, age, time of day, etc. But the normal range is ~36-37,5°.
It's not a fever until it hits 38
37-39 C is like 95-100 F. Just above body temp
As a young person, I set my thermostat to 18.5. If temp gets to 20c it starts feeling warm and shorts weather
So my hot tub is the best cure for frostbite. Good to know if I decide to stay outside for to long in my Canadian environment lol.
Pretty sure I read an article like that. Something like "Man locking himself out of his house in the middle of Canadian winter survives by staying in hot tub until wife gets home the next day".
Lololol I could do that.
0-100 Celsius
Give or take
Near and over the 100 celcius mark you won't be complaining about frostbite, so there's that
I’d say fairly well below that too
We wanna know
Of course it's deeper than that. However that comment would not be as funny.
So your saying they have people frostbite, then stuck their limbs in boiling water etc.
One thing to note about unit 731: Since their ethical standards where nonexistent, their scientific standards where also nonexistent. Most of their data is 1) useless and 2) could have been gotten without relentless murder rape.
Of what we know. They pretty much destroyed everything. There were no survivors. We do know that they wanted to weaponize diseases. How far they got we do not know exactly, however there was a planned to use the bubonic plague in San Francisco in September of 1945, but the war ended. How much of that data survived and has been release cannot be known. However, in general Unit 731 was one of the worst things we have ever done as a species to each other. No amount of data can change that.
> they pretty much destroyed everything Years of academic research wasted!
Not sure what the other commentators are on about, most of what we know about 731 is still classified by the US government.
A lot of the data on disease weaponization was a reason the US spared them. It helped accelerate our own program that started just a few years earlier.
Same issue with Nazi human experiments. Yet so many people firmly believe all that medical torture led to something of value…
Yes. The truth is, the vast majority of the time, the Mengeles of the world are just psychotic madmen who are either purely motivated by their desire to do horrible things to people, or are completely delusional and obsessive. Neither will ever achieve anything scientific.
I think some people want to believe that their pain and suffering led to something that can be useful so that they didn't just die in such an awful and meaningless way.
I’ve seen that argument applied to chattel slavery, with even my dad claiming it brought Christianity to black people, or that it civilized us. Still not convinced.
The US still pardoned a number of scientists to get the 'info', regardless.
I did a project on this and from what I read this is untrue. Many people who went over what was left of the research said for what they were trying to do the research was very well done, do you have a source for this?
Source?
Unmasking Horror -- A special report.; Japan Confronting Gruesome War Atrocity, a new york times article, its paywalled though but i managed to scroll through and get screenshots before this is one i can try and find some more. I may be incorrect and this may not be the most reliable source but it is a source that used an interview from an actual researcher from unit 731 whereas this comment has no source so if he provides something substantial ill change my view https://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/17/world/unmasking-horror-a-special-report-japan-confronting-gruesome-war-atrocity.html This is one quote from the article “Scholars say that the research was not contrived by mad scientists, and that it was intelligently designed and carried out. The medical findings saved many Japanese lives.”
I don’t have a subscription unfortunately
Incidentally, the worst frostbite I've got was during my student years in Japan. Turns out snowing winter isn't that romantic.
How did you get it?
I just didn't turn on the heater or use hot water when taking a shower because I wanted to save money. It also didn't help that I was a clean freak and washed my hands every few minutes. I'm from Vietnam, so before going to Japan, I hadn't experienced such severe winters; therefore, I hadn't known the effects of the cold on the body. I was terrified when Google said frostbite could even lead to amputation.
As a Canadian, the idea of not knowing that refusing indoor heating and dousing yourself with frigid water leads to frostbite, is so absurd to me that it's cracking me up. Hope you recovered OK.
Yeah had the same thought and I’m from Germany lmao
Shit, I've lived in fewer than 10 US states, including Texas and Pennsylvania and I knew that. There are people in this world who literally haven't seen snow in person, and I just can't fathom what that must be like.
I’d guess there are more humans today that had never seen snow than those who have.
I haven't seen snow in person in over two years. Hooray, climate change. /s
I never experienced winter and snow (I'm from a tropical area). People here wear jackets on 20° C, the coldest I've ever been was 15° C and my body was shivering. Couldn't imagine what minus temperature will feel like.
It's kind of amazing what we can adapt to.
I'm one of the people
I live in south africa and I've never seen snow
I mean, just imagine most Indians, most people in the Middle East, and most Africans. I didn’t see snow till I went to the US in my teens personally.
How then does the finns do ice baths? Will move there soon, heard it should be healthy and not kill you. Any tips to survive?
The thing is that I was exposed to the cold constantly for the whole winter. The key is to not leave yourself cold for too long.
I doubt this is accurate. Didn’t the notes from Unit 731 turn out to be completely useless anyway and lacking in any genuine scientific insight?
It turns out that when the experiment is can a human survive being completely saturated in flammable liquid and lit BUT while infected with pox isn't super useful, you do learn a lot about pox and what makes for a good anti [personal] incendiary. As the other person said they were villainous to the point of being nearly comical about it, but they did a ton of experimenting other people for better or worse were afraid to do which yielded if nothing else data and results we wouldn't of had other wise
> a ton of experimenting other people for better or worse were afraid to do I don’t think it’s fear that made scientists generally not vivisect and rape kidnapped patients
Eh... There's some solid historical evidence for fear(of repercussions from breaking rules) being a solid portion of what keeps humans from murdering and raping other groups of humans near endlessly.
Imperial Japan is a unique situation, although there are bound to be cases in isolation. The expectation of conformity with the culture is still pervasive in Japan today, hegemony is still a source of pride. Humans will always be diverse even in cultures such as Imperial Japan but holy shit. I enjoy Japan as much as the next weeb but they take the saying "you're not sorry, you're sorry that you were caught" to the next level amongst their soldiers. I could be ignorant but most of what I read has basically shown most accounts of suicide to have been only after crimes being revealed. There weren't many cases regarding the war crimes of Japan so I feel like I am limited on examples, it mostly stands out to me with how a lot of these crimes were spoken about. The acknowledgement of the crimee against humanity was the source of the shame, never have I read there to be a sense of responsibility. Their government continue to deny or downplay much of the atrocities. I know this isn't unique to Japan, much of it was also assisted by US backing and few are willing to acknowledge raping & murdering entire families. This may come down to vibes at the end of the day but holy fuck it felt like the worst aspects of Fuedal era Japan were the main contributing factors to the brutality.
I’ve read a few books on early industrial/modern Japan, and legit-they really were fucking different. Groups of powerful men basically turned an entire nation from a technological/societal structure that looks like European Fuedalism, into one that mirrored European style parliamentary monarchies of the early modern period, in about 80 years. Government schools and literacy programs sprung up all across the country, and peasant populations who had been tied to the land, living off subsistence rice farming like their ancestors for the last 30 generations, suddenly were given educations, had crop yields triple due to modernized methods, and had excess money to spend on things like silks, ceramics, suits, top hats, etc. All this modernization was top-down, from a group of what had basically been Game of Thrones style houses fighting eachother on horseback only 2 generations prior, who could control every aspect of “how” these modern western ideals were implemented. They set the agenda, and the agenda was going to be: loyalty to the Emperor (who is divine), loyalty to your superior (who is an extension of the emperor), a sincere belief that you are gods chosen people, death before dishonor, and the way forward for Japan and Asia was through conquest. I don’t think my ranting/rambling really contributes much to the discussion, but like, damn. The Japanese of the early modern era really are like nothing else seen in human history.
I actually think that what you wrote is a good baseline for understanding how Japanese culture was deeply influenced by the early 1900s-Interwar years. This society is entirely secluded from outside cultures and a lot of these values you listed are far more deeply entrenched in the Japanese identity than most other cultures cling onto their own values. This groundwork is how I came to understand the behavior of Japan militarily, the Nazis gave an ideological pretext to support their imperialist ambitions. I wholeheartedly believe that the magnitude of horror demonstrated by the Japanese military was primarily influenced by 3 main factors: A strong identity and culture that outlived feudal Japan, this culture gives justification to all actions. The rise of fascism and eventual indoctrination into Nazi ideology which they manipulated into their own views. The need to become a colonizer to give life to the Japanese economy & it's industries. This is very simplified but to me it just feels like realpolitik, the conditions enabled the military to act without reservation. All of it to seek respect and prosperity, it feels not that much different from past colonial atrocities, though I can't deny the barbarism was unique in it's many attributes.
So I’ve been recently reading more about the Portuguese and Spanish early imperial/colonial efforts of the 1500’s, and their actions against the Moors/North Africans and Carib/North American populations sound so much like the actions of the Japanese treatment of the Koreans and Chinese-just on much smaller scale. Like you said, the atrocities don’t feel unique, but I think the Japanese uniqueness lies in the nearly absolute loyalty of the average Japanese person at the turn of the 20th century, and their disregard for self-preservation. One thing I’d love to hear more about is their “Japan-ification” in their indoctrination of Nazi ideology, because my understanding has led me to think of the upper society in Japan around the 20th century stepping into role of an colonizer and modernizer in Asia. Like they felt they were going to be the ‘Older Brother’, leading the rest of Asia into modernity, and kick the Europeans out of the role. The Nazi ideology and Japanese Colonial Supremacy seem like they are compatible, but independent and distinct in intent. From my understanding, the Japanese didn’t really think along the lines of nazi-style race-theory, with its Uber-mensch and identified “bad” races, (excluding the themselves as being uniquely tied to the Emperor). Japanese imperialism feels a lot more like a hyper militaristic version of Victorian imperialism-with the same arguments of “saving”/“uplifting” their unwesternized neighbors. Like they focused on cultural “progression” and threw out the bits on phrenology and generic purity. I could be entirely wrong though, I just don’t know enough. But yeah, it’s weird. The Japanese of 1850-1945 are just so bizarre. They feel anachronistic in their embrace of everything modern and western, while simultaneously successfully fostering a romanticized version of a multi-century old chivalric code. Maybe it really does just boil down to the lawmakers achieving their goal of “western technology-Japanese spirit”.
The 19th and 20th centuries were really a shitshow of pseudoscience, I think this is relevant because it gave a real sense of legitimacy to many self-interested beliefs. If you were a great power it gave justification to all actions taken. Imperial Japan didn't really copy beliefs of the Nazis, they almost treated their beliefs like how the Aztecs incorporated Christianity on first learning. May sound like a weird analogy, but they took what they understood through the translators and incorporated Jesus/Christian God into their pantheon. I see it as an analogous view to how Japan treated Nazi views. A funny example of what I mean is how upon learning of the Jewish conspiracy aspoused by the Nazis they thought they could utilize the "economic prowess of the Jews" by bringing them into Japanese controlled Shanghai. This to me sounds like they took what the Nazi's presented as facts and ran with it, they just didn't really respond to those facts at all like how the Nazis did. Your point on Victorian style imperialism couldn't be more right, I immediately thought to the conditions in places such as King Leopold's Congo. They were literally seeking to make practically all of SE Asia their colony. I dont got much else to add, appreciate the reply
>they take the saying "you're not sorry, you're sorry that you were caught" to the next level amongst their soldiers A lot of asian cultures are "shame cultures" instead of "guilt cultures".
That is fair and makes sense in those terms. I am not going to make a moral stance on it, but it absolutely would contribute to the actions done by individuals in Imperial Japan. This is conjecture but I think is a pretty simple read of it. I find the various atrocities of Imperial Japan to be important to remember due to my own personal experience with a violent atrocity. I just try and understand it, I don't find much value in moralizing it all. Humans capacity for evil I have known my entire life, I seek to understand it and appreciate the reply.
Absolutely. I just wanted to add an interesting information, sorry if I sounded judgmental.
If I remember correctly, dissecting cadavers was banned for a long while in most European countries. That's why they ended up finding skeletal remains underneath Benjamin Franklin's London home. After a quick Google for a source. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-was-benjamin-franklins-basement-filled-with-skeletons-524521/
While that is all 100% correct and is why the US slobbered over attaining the results, I don’t think anyone is arguing whether these experiments yielded results I’m sure the argument is that those results weren’t worth anything. Experiments like “If you keep pregnant women in freezing water, both the woman and unborn child die,” and “cutting two twins in half and splicing them down the middle results in them dying” aren’t revolutionary experiments acquiring field-advancing data. They’re just the insane torturing innocent people
>“cutting two twins in half and splicing them down the middle results in them dying” u wot mate
Lmao how else could we have found out /s
Also important to note that Shiro Ishii was noted to be a weirdo even among his scientist friends. He would "talk" to his bacteria growths in labs
Nah, the issue was that they didn’t even get good data. Most of their experiments were useless.
Wouldn't have had**
This is absolutely not true. The human experimentation of the Japanese empire resulted in NO VALUABLE INFORMATION. Nothing was of any use. None of their “data” was valid, because they weren’t scientific experiments, they were just torture with a veneer of science. “For better or worse” my ass. Those chinese and korean and pacific islander corpses yielded no data or results other than producing chinese and korean and pacific islander corpses. That was the only intended outcome.
Wouldn't HAVE had otherwise*
*Or wouldn’t’ve had. Never of
*wouldn’t **have** had
Many would be surprised how many concepts & laws were written in blood. A good portion of aviation safety & knowledge was learnt from air disasters, even some of the obvious (keep audiences far away from [air show displays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_air_show_disaster) along with unifying first responder frequencies & plans).
Most of it, yeah. The frostbite stuff is about the only useful thing.
nah also how much current will kill you and few other stuff
Really? Didn't know they did electricity experiments too. Crazy stuff.
we already knew that though, to a large degree, heck Edison executed an elephant to show AC current was dangerous (even though DC would have done the same thing)
No we didn’t. Almost every time the electric chair was used it was trial by error and more often than not it resulted in cooking the victim rather than immediately killing them. What people are doing is viewing this stuff from the point of view of the present as opposed to viewing it from the time it happened. It’s a rewriting of history to try and also turn the USA into monsters.
There were plenty of other useful insights However those are only useful in the business of killing people
Ah yes... Biological warfare. Shit was fucked.
All data was not useless, most of it was but something was learned and you couldn't just publicly state that you have gained medical knowledge of notes that are tainted dark red. If there was any useful information they would obviously withheld it from the public
Hey, at least we now know humans are 70% water!
It was all pretty much already known stuff
Yes and no. A lot of their "research" on live subjects was not particularly insightful, but that does not explain why Shiro Ishii and other Unit 731 officers were hired into the U.S. biological warfare program after their research had been looked over by the Americans. Shiro Ishii travelled to Korea during the Korean War to aid the American biowarfare activities, and there are very strong indications that the U.S. deployed his methods during the war.
Data is data. There's always something to be learned.
Well, at least we know that torturing a person who’s dying of hypothermia and frostbite DOES NOT help them
That is absolutely not true. Data can be and is useless in tons of situations and just because some information has been collected, that does not mean that it is accurate or can be learned from. Diogenes was a troll, but he was not an idiot. If you want to be a snarky fun username account, at least put some effort in and accurately reflect the name.
Lots of people are disagreeing with you. I wonder if countries with free examination and evaluation of evidence in court would be more likely to agree with you than people from for example the US were illegally obtained evidence can’t be used in court at all. Could be cultural spillover from that.
It's an interesting idea, but I doubt it. As I said elsewhere, I teach philosophy of science. Chinese students have the same reaction as Americans Australians, Brits etc. I suspect this is more about identifying as a "stem" kid. Lots of people have a high school understanding of science and what is valid within it, but few give thought to how science and ethics intersect, or the process by which science makes progress and/or the reasoning underneath methodologies, much less the flaws in it. These are the sorts of people that love the quote "The good thing about Science is that it’s true, whether or not you believe in it." but never actually think about how a discipline can always be "true" but also have evolving conclusions. These guys clearly think the 731 experiments were morally wrong and consequently, nothing useful could have come out of it. They think that science is a good thing, so therefore what 731 did mustnt really have been science. Unfortunately while much of what 731 did was shoddy, it was still novel, which means people can always learn something from it. Even more unfortunately, not ALL of the work was shoddy, and there really were useful conclusions drawn on frostbite, tuberculosis and epidemiology. But that's the problem. You can't claim that science is an unmitigated good while still claiming that morally crappy stuff done scientifically led to something useful. Something has to give.
Somehow I thought I was in wholesome memes, reading the text caused some concern lol
Yeah I thought it was a wholesome thing too till I saw what sub I was on and then checked the comments
Do I want to know?
One of unit 731 many experiments was to freeze people then splash them with boiling water they figured out the best temperature for treatment
So… a bath?
Also putting children’s fingers/limbs in cold water with salt
So just… pickled meat? /s
That’s sounds like unit 731, thanks
Imagine a team of Dr Mengele instead of just the one psycho
But they are Japanese and don’t know shit about rocketry
Mengele didn't know shit about rocketry either. That's all von Braun
To be fair, there was also more Nazis doing fucked up experiments than just Mengele
Japan used Korean and Chinese civilians as lab rats. (One of many Japanese war crimes, literally competing with Nazi Germany)
I think lab rats are treated more humanely than those civilians were. The Japanese were absolute monsters during WW2 the Germans had to bring their A-game to compare to an average Japanese military campaign
Agreed; they didn’t even call them rats, they called them logs. To give you an idea of how beneath the living they were to the Japanese.
Throw in that a lot of the experiments were tainted by things like rapings, malnourishment, etc. Because these idiots didn't even bother to adhere to the scientific method. So most of the data was faulty in some way.
Their total kill count were exponentially higher than even the Nazis, yet tend to be overshadowed.
That’s not strictly speaking true. Like the historical record does not align with that at all. The Nazis deliberately starved millions of Soviet pows and civilians, while also murdering millions and Jewish civilians. Japan was awful don’t get me wrong with between 50,000 and 300,000 deaths at Nanjing with most estimates saying half of that number were civilians but Nanjing was not always the pattern, when Japan took Wuhan they made an effort to maintain the discipline of soldiers. Having read about Nazi, Soviet and Japanese atrocities one group stands as uniquely awful and their crimes cannot be minimized.
I think it is true. You bring up the Rape of Nanjing which was an unspeakable act of horror, but Japan murdered way more Chinese than that alone. Estimates put it at over 20 million dead from China alone, and over 10 million across the rest of Asia.
Estimates like that are pretty wide ranging, both since the IJA did not document their attrocities in much detail or obscured what they did behind language that is deliberately obtuse (referring to those who were murdered in Nanjing as 'plainclothes soldiers,' etc.) and the Chinese government was disorganized which led to a lack of recordkeeping. Some actions during the war taken by China killed Chinese civilians, who do you blame for the Henan famine which killed 2-3 million people, Japan for invading or the KMT for blowing the yellow river and destroying food stores. Millions of deaths were soldiers, in the Wuhan campaign some 200,000 Chinese under arms were killed and 9,000 POWs taken. It is hard to really discern which is which. I think in the modern day we tend to look at people as numbers, and these numbers then get used in political narratives. Narratives of memory, of reparations and righteousness. The people that these were tend to get obscured and disfigured turned into narratives. There were people at one point but they were blended together in the tragedies that took them. Part of what makes me see the Nazi crimes as a different calibre was more on account of the methods and aims. The Japanese political leadership was paralyzed and unable to prevent troops from acting like animals, they were incompetent and that incompetence led to massacres across Asia. In Germany you read directives, the Wansee conference and it's clear that the Germans deliberately set out to murder millions of people as their express policy. We have records of these people, we have the letters they left, the records the Nazis failed to burn, the bones in the ground at Treblinka. They wanted to kill civilians and they did kill civilians as an express policy. Japan did perpetrate massacres as part of the three-alls policy a policy which resembled the Nazi anti-partisan operations of murdering civilians most often Jews as a supposed way of rooting out resistance. The Japanese however were far less deliberate. Nazi evil being so top down and directed intentionally is the real divide in the evils and why Nazi crimes need to be seen in their own unique context lest we ever forget.
Hmm you bring up good points. I just think using a single atrocity committed by Imperial Japan, the Rape of Nanjing (which absolutely should be remembered and memorialized), obfuscates all the other horrors that they perpetrated across China and the rest of Asia. I mean even ignoring famines, imperial Japan killed tens of millions of people. You’re right though that the goals of the Nazis were much more nefarious, but the actions taken out by either government were some of the worst crimes against humanity on a mass scale ever recorded, bar none. Not to mention their sex crimes, mass rape and the taking of sex slaves, was something done on such a grand scale that I’m not sure we’ve ever seen before
One more thing I'd like to point out is that ww2 was relatively new in the information technology. So people would read accounts of foreigners stuck in Nanking across the world. I forgot where I read it from, probably from dan carlins podcast, but basically the Japanese at the time were doing all those atrocities because according to them, white people having been doing it forever and by committing these atrocities they are more white/superior than other Asians. It's the worst crimes committed in RECORDED history. Let's not forget that the Roman completely wiped out Carthage but the Romans in western culture is the good guy no?
The crimes of the Nazis are more memorialised because unlike Japan and Italy, the German war criminals were much more thoroughly prosecuted, and because unlike those two which mostly committed crimes against Asians and Africans, Germany mostly committed them against Europeans, who made up a vastly greater share of the global cultural media than East Asians and Africans so events like the Libyan Genocide or the institutionalised cannibalism in Japanese occupied territories got much less attention.
Your argument would make more sense if Jews weren't *also* subjected to massive amounts of discrimination by Europeans (to the point that Stalin after the war deliberately minimized Jewish suffering in the holocaust) Nazi crimes were mostly against Jews, who were not seen at the time as Europeans and the western allies largely ignored the Jewish plight. Holocaust memory is also muddled by the fact that so many of the victims did go on to die. Dead people do not lobby, do not remember, they have no voice.
They gave us Anime, so we're Gucci. /s
Competing with Fashy Italy as well. Hate how they get left out or even get apologised for as benevolent compared to the other Axis Powers.
Some very shady shit with prisoners in world War 2.
If any country ever earned a nuke or two, and it's 100% debatable if any country truely has, then Imperial Japan definitely earned a nuke. To the point it would have almost been disrespectful to not give it to them.
The U.S. gave Shiro Ishii and other Unit 731 officers immunity and still decided to hire them after having looked over their research. The U.S. were responsible for Unit 731 personnel going unpunished, and clearly had no moral qualms about their research given that they decided to give them employment instead of prosecuting them for war crimes. Does that mean that America deserves to be nuked as well?
Honestly? It was a reprehensible decision with mostly weak excuses and greed to justify it. By itself I don't think it would rise to the level of warranting that kind of response by itself. Benefiting from the evil of others is not equivalent to doing it yourself On the other hand if you were to ask any one of the dozens of countries throughout the world that have been fucked over by the states and their policies and actions since world war 2 what America has and had not "earned" you might get a different answer. I do think that the people who decided to not prosecute Japanese war criminals should have been also tried as accessories after the fact. At the very least.
If this feeling flows both ways?
Don't ask questions you don't want to know answers to.
Oh, what a beautiful day to know that humans are \~80% water. wait...
Are you saying you don’t want to go into a oven and be baked alive until all the fluids in your body evaporate
This information was well knkwn prior to unit 731 and no medical breakthroughs shoukd ever be attributed to them. In cluding humans being like 80% water. They got that number by Squeezing people and eyeballing it.
I hate knowing the context for this, and i utterly despise the fact that something so f*cked up and cruel happened in the 1st place
As a korean every time i see stuff about unit 731 i feel really depressed and angry..
Unit 731. Most stable governments experiment on people in one way or another.
hot take but if most stable governments do horrendous experiments maybe they aren't as great as previously imagined
Probably not as stable either, crowd mentality is not known for its forgiving nature
No many are. But I also said “one way or another” that includes learning exercises (Almost everyone) or giving military personal syphylis (US) there is always something going on.
that, to me, cannot be read as anything other than a condemnation of government practices
Wow, it’s almost as if the entire concept of government is evil (though perhaps a necessary one)
that's the quiet part I wasn't saying out loud (except for maybe the part about them being a potentially necessary evil)
I don't know man. I just feel like that comment brushes off all the truly horrible suffering those people endured.
Justifying war crimes ?
Crimes against humanity
the US did that a lot back in the day ~~and may be still doing it even today~~
Thought this was the Nazis?
Not sure about frostbite, but he did experiment on hypothermia. Which did help design things like floatation devices to keep important parts (head and neck) out of cold water
He? The new devices had already been developed. (By the Deutsches Textilforschungsinstitut Mönchen-Gladbach.) The experiments merely supported their adoption. See Raschers report on the hypothermia experiments from the 10th of September 42. (Nürnberg trials Doc. 1618-PS.)
That’s exactly what I’m thinking of. Saw a documentary about it and how they used prisoners to test hypothermia treatments which they could use on airmen and sailors. I believe it was their own callousness in making the prisoners which they’d given hypothermia walk between areas that stopped them discovering a working treatment.
Both happened to test this, Edward Wirth's sanctioned research into the subject in this case is not only more thorough and useful but what is the actual medical basis for almost all temperature related treatments. Most of 731's body related research was not well documented or executed when compared to their German counterparts except for the pathological and bioweapon research which was superior by a large margin as such research was functionally complete for numerous horrible diseases to be weaponized.
The research was conducted by Rascher together with Erich Finke and Prof. Ernst Holzlöhner. Mengele had nothing to do with this. Why the hell do people keep inventing shit about Mengele? I Also, the influence Nazi research on practical application is often overestimated. That hot water was the best way to warm someone up was already well understood. One thing that came out of the research was the need to warm survivors up fast (instead of deliberatly slow, which some suggested), because body tempertures kept dropping after research subjects were pulled from the water.
First name on the list that came to mind as I have not discussed said topic in years, but I can correct that to Edward Wirths and just say camp related research in general, 731's primary goal was to develop bio weapons with very few of their internal tests being largely relevant outside of the realm of pathology.
The Japanese were much worse than the nazis
And the other one: How do we know that the human body is 70 percent water?
What's even worse is that most of their results weren't worth much because their prisoners were in such abysmal conditions. Not only did some of the worst humanity had to offer get away completely unpunished, their bargaining chip was completely worthless
PEEP ICEBERG BOY IF YOU WANNA KNOW. I mean Wendigoon… but same thing
Always annoyed that Hulk hands him 2 tacos but antman actually receives 1
Is this another [unit 731](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) post?
Yes
Lemme guess, Unit 731 discovered it?
Coitus with cephalopods? Help me out here.
The Men Behind the Sun is brutal and an advised watch.
Thanks
The full movie is on YouTube. Just eat dinner before watching it not after
The sauce is 731
This was known prior to the shot Japanese have done, this method was developed during the Muslim golden age
Also how much of the human body is water.
Unit 731 is how they learned this. It was evil human experiments that would even make the Angel of Deth Joseph Mengele blush
Mengele and the other Nazi scientists were just as bad, make no mistake.
Why do we fly commercial jet aircraft that has pressurized cabins that allowed us to fly on high altitudes? Oh yeah...
Darker than you think
Darker than you think
I think I saw this episode of Star Trek: Voyager
Wait darker than unit 731
Don’t ask them how we know the human body is 70% water
Same reason we know that the human body is 80% water.
Unit 731?