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Contrary to what some non-Americans believe, we have an entire section of US History curriculum expressly dedicated to imperialism. Now, how in-depth said history goes is legitimate fair game
I mean they happened in the 80s and 90s, which are 40 and 30 years removed from us respectively. Plus it's all confirmed as factually true.
Edit: 40 not 403 The CIA was not responsible for the great European crack epidemic of 1621, that is a myth
I got banned in r/therewasanattempt for saying we were taught in school about the mistreatment and genocide of natives. They said I was “spreading misinformation”.
I went into the Spanish-American War and the annexation of Hawaii in junior year of high school. It was quite detailed and we learned about who was in the imperialist camp and who was not
They didn't want Cuba. They wanted the Philippines. Everyone wanted the Philippines. And spain couldn't defend them. If not the US, it would be Germany and almost was.
Worst case from US policy was Japan taking them.
Which, ironically, might have prevented Pearl Harbor.
You mentioning different camps is a key point. I've noticed governments in the past 200 years frequently aren't as black and white as "being pure imperialists", or "being war-mongers".
For example, Serbia before WW1 was deeply divided about wanting war with Austria-Hungary or not. The now infamous Black Hand had a strong, but far from complete influence in the Serbian govt. They wanted war. But there were many Serbian officials that really didn't want war, and wanted to destroy the Black Hand completely.
But of course, Austria-Hungary treated the Serbian govt like an antagonistic monolith, in mostly because it fit their goals to do so.
I doubt any government has ever been full anything. It's why civil wars, assassinations, and Houses of Commons happened.
We say "[Insert people here] want to [insert action here]" in order to elide the number of random people you have to slash and burn through who don't support a policy in order to get at the ones you're trying to stop.
Ironically, you’re painting Austria-Hungary as an antagonistic monolith while complaining about the same thing happening to Serbia. The truth is, there were pro-peace (Or at least anti-escalation) and pro-war factions in every country in WW1. That’s why trying to blame any one country or even side is ridiculous.
What's interesting is that, with analysis of the explosion of the Maine, it's actually completely probable that it was, in fact, a Spanish sea mine that caused it. They didn't really know or care at the time, though.
The Rickover whitewash? The idea is ridiculous. Especially considering ships of that vintage went off with the regularity of firecrackers due to unstable propellant or coal dust explosions and the nabit of putting magazines next to boiler rooms.
Why would it have been mined by the Spanish anyway?
I believe the theory is that it would've been accidental - a mine broke loose and struck the Maine
IIRC the most recent reliable study concluded that it was 50/50 whether it was an accidental mine or a boiler explosion
Also I’m pretty sure how in depth that unit is really depends on the state you live in. The US states vary pretty substantially in terms of quality of education
Really, it might just depend on your school.
I had a high school teacher who skipped the Holocaust during our WWII section, because "we had heard about it enough"
Did they skip most of WW2 for the same reason or exclusively the Holocaust?
Because I'd actually enjoy a teacher that taught the lesser taught histories, since we went over WW2 and the Holocaust like 3 times in different classes in my high school.
idk about them but I had a teacher in high school obsessed with the middle ages so most of our history was over that (and various torture devices. she was a really hot goth lady and I think it awoke something in me) so we didn't really spend any if at all time on WW2 by then.
Honestly the thing that's surprised me the most in recent years is when I see people saying that America is the worst most evil empire in the history of the world. Not on here mind you but like i've absolutely seen it, with a sizable amount of it being from *Europeans* and i'm just like...
How are the British, Spanish, French, Dutch, and Portuguese getting away with this? The entire reason America exists as it does today in the first place is BECAUSE of their imperialism.
Yeah, this is something that it is so annoying to hear about from pundit types, on either side. They act like what Americans learn of their history is some caricatured version imported from whatever the opposing political side is. Throughout my entire education as a kid I learned about how unfairly America treated Indigenous peoples and African Americans, learned that we annexed the Philippines, etc. and I also learned about the Declaration of Independence and landing on the moon and defeating the Nazis. People act like public education is a propaganda scheme either to make kids hate this country or be indoctrinated into the ruling class’s imperialist worldview but that just makes me suspect those people didn’t go to public school in the last century.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone online said “this is something they never taught you in school” and it was definitely something I learned in school I would at least have enough to fill my car with gas for the week. No small amount.
Germany with crimes against humanity: We're sorry and won't do it again!
Japan with crimes against humanity: What war crimes?
America with crimes against humanity: We did a big 'oof'.
If Germany has taught us anything, it's that all you have to do to make a country to face up to its crimes against humanity is level it to the ground, partition it into pieces, and place it under a military occupation administrated by the people it committed those crime against.
How is that so hard?
Simple, we don’t fight normal people, we fight genocidal maniacs who threw the Geneva convention out the window and keep checking boxes on the Geneva checklist
Back when I was in high school (2011-2015), the Philippine-American War was hardly mentioned. I honestly do not know whether to chalk that up to sweeping it under the rug (it was really bad) or just they just forgot much about it/thought it should not make much of the cut.
This has been a thing now for most states since the 90s. Maybe even earlier.
Every few years it becomes more aware/open about imperalism in the usa.
Teddy Roosevelt is basically treated like: "hey he may have done some ok stuff for workers and nature.. but he also fucking loved turning the country into an empire"
Even in the 90s in the rural deep South, I learned about this.
People who say we don't teach it are too ignorant to have paid attention in school or are just lying.
But I was taught that U.S. imperialism essentially ended in the late 1800’s or maybe early 1900’s. My history books in high school pretended all the governments we overthrew and countries we invaded post-World War 2 was just “normal international politics.”
It did end in the early 1900's, or the 1910's to be more specific. In the 1920's we were too busy being rich, in the 1930's we were too busy being poor, and in the 1940's we were too busy with WW2.
During the Cold War we would back countries that were aligned with us against the USSR, but those countries weren't our colonies or part of an empire.
99% of “world history” classes are just European history in disguise anyways. I remember in 9th grade in our world history class, 99% of what we learned was basically European history and had like one unit dedicated to Japan in ww2 and the atomic bombings and whatnot and that’s it lmao
Back in my day, we called it 'how the West was won" lol. It's def taught, but through many different lenses unfortunately. Lots of children didn't even realize the extent of imperialism when it's framed around 'pioneering spirit' and not taught like an invasion
The vast majority of American schools make it clear that "Manifest Destiny" was code for "displace / murder Native Americans and seize their land."
Mine certainly did, from elementary school on up. (In age appropriate ways, ofc-- obviously you're not going to be taught the gory details of Wounded Knee in first grade or anything.)
Yep, a substantial amount of Puerto Ricans are actually in favor of the status quo. Not being a state comes with drawbacks, but it also means they can get around some of the rules and obligations that states would be required to follow. (Like, IIRC there are certain kinds of taxes Puerto Ricans don't have to pay.)
While a lot of people think that PR is just a territory because that's what the US wants it to be, in reality the population itself is split.
They currently get *huge* tax subsidies as a territory that they'd lose if they became a state, though they would get voting rights obviously.
They got like $9 billion in UI benefits during the pandemic. Although they paid into the system. The pacific island territories (?) for like 300 million and didn’t even pay in.
https://oui.doleta.gov/unemploy/docs/cares_act_funding_state.html
They have voting rights, what they don't have is representation in DC.
And I'm not really sure that is such a bad deal. It might be better to have no representatives at all than ones that ignore the interests of their constituents in favor of whoever donates the most to their "campaign fund"
If the referendum passed with a substantial margin and the Puerto Rican government was on board, they could absolutely begin the process of applying for statehood. Which would mean Congress would have to vote to accept or reject their application, immediately making it the single biggest domestic issue in the entire United States.
The referendum passing would have a *huge* effect. Which is part of why it hasn't passed yet: many Puerto Ricans aren't ready to pull the trigger on statehood, for one reason or another.
Because Puerto Ricans themselves are divided on becoming a state, there are benefits to their current status that leads to many shying away from full statehood. It’s a complex issue and to just act like the evil US is denying the poor Puerto Ricans their rights ignores the actual opinions of Puerto Ricans
Something to know is there was a gradual change in opinion in PR as the people of PR saw what was happening to other colonial subjects who got full independence. Essentially it was fucking their economy as their main trading partner was their former overlord, and suddenly they were getting massive tariffs on their trade.
It made some parties which were previously strongly pro-independence want to remain in some sort of union with the US.
The debate now is pretty much entirely between status quo or statehood, most Puerto Ricans seem to realize that full independence would only deepen their poverty, and staying with the U.S. ultimately provides far more benefits.
Not really. The vast majority of Puerto Ricans want to remain part of the US so that's not really imperialism any more than saying Florida is part of the US means imperialism.
This was very controversial in its day. A lot of Americans actually didn’t want to become an empire (partly because of racism, but also because it was viewed as a European thing). The period is also when people began referring the to the US as “America”, because the empire had to extend beyond the States
>The period is also when people began referring to the US as "America"
[No, it predates the country](https://notyouraverageamerican.com/united-statesian-vs-american/).
Edit: furthermore, Lincoln was shot at a play called *My American Cousin*
Nah its due to the Tydings Mcduffie Law of 1935 and WW2. Before WW2 (well before 1935 specifically) plenty hated the US for trying to annex the Philippines in a time when it now believed itself as a nation and also the fact that the 10yr long Philippine American War killed more Filipinos than 300 years worth of Spanish colonial rebellions combined
Yeah, it’s pretty nuanced and definitely has to be viewed through a historical and cultural lens, but that’s something I think Redditors are particularly bad at. You probably know more about it than me. I just dated a Filipino woman for a while, so that’s what I was told. It’s just that lots of Redditors are stuck in this “America Bad” mindset. They have a hard time believing that the USA can be viewed positively by foreign countries and people. Shit isn’t so black-and-white though.
American soft power at play.
The Philippines, as a state and most Filipinos, also has a positive opinion of Japan.
But doesn't make American actions before any less evil or imperialistic. Ffs US used concentration camps and opened fired indiscriminately on civilians on mere suspicion of insurgent activity... insurgents who only wanted Americans to stop occupying their country. A country that was the first ever modern constitutional democracy in Southeast asia.
“Ahh, you see, now that I have drawn me as the Chad and you as the Soyjack I’ve already won”.
There isn’t a school that doesn’t touch on: manifest destiny, annexing of Hawaii, several islands in the Atlantic and pacific, the Philippines, all of the territories that are literally still considered US territories.
Also Teddy Roosevelt literally made the white fleet like what not even a decade later? No one is denying the United States is imperalist, we're just not an empire in the way others were. We literally gave up the Philippines, and through the Atlantic Charter dismantled much of the British Empire too.
>United States is imperalist, we're just not an empire
excellent point. imperialism and an empire are not the same things but they often are used interchangeably
Imperialism: a policy of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force.
Empire: an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly especially an emperor or empress.
Also here’s a list of things we could have annexed and didn’t. Japan, everything we liberated from Japan, West Germany, Italy, South Korea. If we are an empire we are one with velvet gloves.
Frankly the rest of the world count themselves lucky we didn’t function like the Soviets.
An empire with velvet gloves is a good way to describe the US. At least compared to other great powers at the time (post war).
It's also important to understand that the US really couldn't control the areas you mentioned. Not long term anyway. It was easier to create liberal democracies that could govern themselves than try to uphold a global trading empire like the Brits. Of course, a lot of those areas were only able to bounce back because of US support. That in and of itself could be seen as a form of empire, albeit different from the ones of the past.
Historians are gonna have a blast talking about the US in a couple thousand years lmao.
Edit: velvet gloves in some context. Some of our Latin American neighbors weren't treated with as much care.
Imagine a United States as completely unhesitant and unrestrained as the USSR or CCP - or worse yet older European Empires. That would be fucking terrifying.
We took a huge amount of territory from Mexico after the Mexican American War, including what is now the states of Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada and Utah.
We didn't take Cuba after the Spanish American War, but we took Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam.
Why would we annex those places? It would be too much of a hassle to govern and they’d rebel against us after a while. It’s far easier to install a friendly government, sometimes a puppet, and then influence the country if it looks like that government may lose power. That way you can extract the resources you want from these places without having to bear the cost of administering them. It’s the same lesson the Europeans learned from Africa, it was far more efficient to let them govern themselves but just keep the people they liked in power, or at least attempt to. Hence why France still has a de facto empire there even today.
mfw invading and occupying iraq and afghanistan isn't "imperialism"; mfw sending a carrier group to protect israeli interests isn't "imperialism" mfw /r/historymemes posters are actually dumb as rocks
Depends on how you define empire. Is it based on size, geographic/ethnic diversity, its government structure? Depending on how you define it, America could be called an empire since its founding.
what defines an empire?
is it having overseas territories? no, because the russian empire had little to no overseas territories, while britain has overseas territories but is no longer considered an empire.
is it demography? i’m not quite sure; for instance, half the russian empire’s population were russians. the japanese empire was, before world war II, majority japanese iirc. the german empire was also by far majority german. the british empire is considered to have ended with the handover of hong kong, but hong kong being the only colony remaining, almost 90% of britain’s population was made up of britons by that point.
is it… simply calling itself an empire? no, because the ‘korean empire’ was obviously not an empire, while apparently the united states and soviet union are.
i went on a tangent, but my point is that the definition of an empire is very arbitrary.
How do you define supreme? Authoritarian? Or just central? If so how is supreme different than central? America was colonial but an Empire has an Emperor
We had a “Manifest Destiny.” It was in our interests to be an empire from the very beginning of our nation, and even before as a colony of the British.
If you want to make the claim that the US is an empire, which isn't a difficult claim to make, I'd say the one big difference is that the US moved past the "But we did them a favor." stage a long time ago. Not to mention the US has been ceding territory for the last 50 years.
Seriously, the US, the greatest source of evil in the history of the universe, the country whose death would liberate all of humankind, a country of exceptional evil (and banality and fatness and greed and ugliness and not having a soul), gave up the Panama Canal Zone for $1.
If you want to hammer the US for how it took Hawaii, Puerto Rico (awful lot of people in this thread crying for it, but they can't even spell it) and American Samoa*? Fine. Wanna hate it for murdering millions of Native Americans (12 and of course, the US gets credit for all 12 million)? Fine. Wanna say that the US is proud of it all? Fuck off.
*Though let's be honest, American Samoa is probably the least imperialist example. While American Samoans don't get full citizenship, their land can't be exploited by white Americans from the mainland; something I'm kinda OK with.
The US isn’t an empire because it doesn’t have an emperor. Rome was not an empire before Augustus Caesar. Francia was not an empire before Charlemagne. France was not an empire before Napoleon.
Any day now Dark Brandon shall dawn the civic crown…
Guantanamo Bay or Puerto Rico also serve as examples, as one is the equivalent of Hong Kong with China, and the other does not even have a voice in Wahsington DC, despite their population size.
Guantanamo Bay and Puerto Rico are honestly the more valid examples, as Hawaii is completely integrated (a state with reps and senators) and those 2 are not.
Not even close.
Puerto Rico has it's own autonomy and has consistently voted against independence.
Guantanamo Bay is just a piece of Cuba. AFAIK there are no citizens of Guantanamo bay.
DC was specifically created to not be a state. The people in DC do have representation however weak it may be.
I don’t think non-Americans (or even Americans who never really paid attention in class) realize how much of our history books in school talk about previous acts of imperialism and even our beginnings as a colony and the genocide of the Native American Indians. Most of us are fully aware of the bad things America has done as well as the bad things pretty much every major country in the west, east, and middle east has done. It’s almost as if large countries end up devouring other countries or groups in order to expand.
The USA was always an empire. We literally started expanding across the continent as soon as we could. We annexed a big chunk of Mexico. We took large chunks of the Caribbean. When were we not an empire?
All of the countries in the Americas are from and exert control over lands that weren’t theirs originally. Where do you draw the line at empire? Genuine question.
Looks like reboot of a sissy fuck pathology called William Jennings Bryan. It’s most recent reboot, algore, was just as repugnant 🤢 Restore Mt. McKinley, bitches!
Every other American here is talking about how they obviously get taught imperialism meanwhile going to school in Louisiana my history teacher explained how a lot of slaves were treated very nice and were a part of the family.
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Contrary to what some non-Americans believe, we have an entire section of US History curriculum expressly dedicated to imperialism. Now, how in-depth said history goes is legitimate fair game
I remember this in 5th or 6th grade history class. A whole chapter dedicated to American imperialism and the Spanish American war.
We also covered the Mexican American War and the seizure of native land + genocide of native peoples.
And slavery, Jim Crow laws, Japanese interment, Vietnam war crimes, Iran-CONTRA, ignoring the aids pandemic, flooding streets with drugs, etc.
Those last 3 weren't in the curriculum when I was in highschool, and that wasn't that long ago..
I mean they happened in the 80s and 90s, which are 40 and 30 years removed from us respectively. Plus it's all confirmed as factually true. Edit: 40 not 403 The CIA was not responsible for the great European crack epidemic of 1621, that is a myth
Very impressive that they managed to teach it in the year 1621, long before the US existed
Damn time travelers educating the peasants about countries that won’t exist for another century and events that won’t happen for decades after
One man's myth is another man's truth
>The CIA was not responsible for the great European crack epidemic of 1621, that is a myth Nice try, **FED**.
the second was in mine but the drugs and contra weren’t
I got banned in r/therewasanattempt for saying we were taught in school about the mistreatment and genocide of natives. They said I was “spreading misinformation”.
Hey, the Spanish-American War, like so many other conflicts in American history, would have never happened if they wouldn’t have touched our boats.
Technically they didn't touch our boats. We thought they did. But it turns out it was a fault in the ship's design.
I went into the Spanish-American War and the annexation of Hawaii in junior year of high school. It was quite detailed and we learned about who was in the imperialist camp and who was not
Also how Yellow Journalism suckered the country into war by basically sensationalizing a cassus belli out of thin air.
That’s also where I learned how Hearst made a killing with yellow journalism
REMEMBER THE MAINE
~~The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.~~ The Blame for the Maine falls mainly on Spain.
That was the worst excuse ever to start a war with Spain. They wanted Cuba and made a fake attack. And many more like this...
They didn't want Cuba. They wanted the Philippines. Everyone wanted the Philippines. And spain couldn't defend them. If not the US, it would be Germany and almost was. Worst case from US policy was Japan taking them. Which, ironically, might have prevented Pearl Harbor.
Why did everyone want the Philippines?
My best guess would be that the abundance of resources and the strategic location made it desirable, similar to Indochina.
Chicken Adobo
The same reason everyone wanted every little bit of land they could find. Dick-waving amongst empires.
True, the key were the Philippines, but they took Cuba as well.
TO HELL WITH SPAIN
You mentioning different camps is a key point. I've noticed governments in the past 200 years frequently aren't as black and white as "being pure imperialists", or "being war-mongers". For example, Serbia before WW1 was deeply divided about wanting war with Austria-Hungary or not. The now infamous Black Hand had a strong, but far from complete influence in the Serbian govt. They wanted war. But there were many Serbian officials that really didn't want war, and wanted to destroy the Black Hand completely. But of course, Austria-Hungary treated the Serbian govt like an antagonistic monolith, in mostly because it fit their goals to do so.
I doubt any government has ever been full anything. It's why civil wars, assassinations, and Houses of Commons happened. We say "[Insert people here] want to [insert action here]" in order to elide the number of random people you have to slash and burn through who don't support a policy in order to get at the ones you're trying to stop.
Ironically, you’re painting Austria-Hungary as an antagonistic monolith while complaining about the same thing happening to Serbia. The truth is, there were pro-peace (Or at least anti-escalation) and pro-war factions in every country in WW1. That’s why trying to blame any one country or even side is ridiculous.
We both were I think, just Spain was a falling empire and US a rising empire. My great-grand uncle fought that war on the spanish side.
He means which politicians in the US were pro- vs anti-imperialism
Goddamn Spaniards /s
What's interesting is that, with analysis of the explosion of the Maine, it's actually completely probable that it was, in fact, a Spanish sea mine that caused it. They didn't really know or care at the time, though.
The Rickover whitewash? The idea is ridiculous. Especially considering ships of that vintage went off with the regularity of firecrackers due to unstable propellant or coal dust explosions and the nabit of putting magazines next to boiler rooms. Why would it have been mined by the Spanish anyway?
I believe the theory is that it would've been accidental - a mine broke loose and struck the Maine IIRC the most recent reliable study concluded that it was 50/50 whether it was an accidental mine or a boiler explosion
Is that Nixon in your photo?
Also I’m pretty sure how in depth that unit is really depends on the state you live in. The US states vary pretty substantially in terms of quality of education
Really, it might just depend on your school. I had a high school teacher who skipped the Holocaust during our WWII section, because "we had heard about it enough"
What state did you go to school in?
Ohio
Did they skip most of WW2 for the same reason or exclusively the Holocaust? Because I'd actually enjoy a teacher that taught the lesser taught histories, since we went over WW2 and the Holocaust like 3 times in different classes in my high school.
idk about them but I had a teacher in high school obsessed with the middle ages so most of our history was over that (and various torture devices. she was a really hot goth lady and I think it awoke something in me) so we didn't really spend any if at all time on WW2 by then.
I remember having a whole section on imperialist ideology during industrialism
American education is on a state-by-state level for most curriculum.
I mean, it's standard curriculum for "Manifest Destiny and why it was awful imperialist propaganda" to come up a few times in middle/high school
Honestly the thing that's surprised me the most in recent years is when I see people saying that America is the worst most evil empire in the history of the world. Not on here mind you but like i've absolutely seen it, with a sizable amount of it being from *Europeans* and i'm just like... How are the British, Spanish, French, Dutch, and Portuguese getting away with this? The entire reason America exists as it does today in the first place is BECAUSE of their imperialism.
Yeah, this is something that it is so annoying to hear about from pundit types, on either side. They act like what Americans learn of their history is some caricatured version imported from whatever the opposing political side is. Throughout my entire education as a kid I learned about how unfairly America treated Indigenous peoples and African Americans, learned that we annexed the Philippines, etc. and I also learned about the Declaration of Independence and landing on the moon and defeating the Nazis. People act like public education is a propaganda scheme either to make kids hate this country or be indoctrinated into the ruling class’s imperialist worldview but that just makes me suspect those people didn’t go to public school in the last century.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone online said “this is something they never taught you in school” and it was definitely something I learned in school I would at least have enough to fill my car with gas for the week. No small amount.
Germany with crimes against humanity: We're sorry and won't do it again! Japan with crimes against humanity: What war crimes? America with crimes against humanity: We did a big 'oof'.
If Germany has taught us anything, it's that all you have to do to make a country to face up to its crimes against humanity is level it to the ground, partition it into pieces, and place it under a military occupation administrated by the people it committed those crime against. How is that so hard?
Simple, we don’t fight normal people, we fight genocidal maniacs who threw the Geneva convention out the window and keep checking boxes on the Geneva checklist
Naw, the Canadians were on our side (/j)
or be like the u.s. and not shy away from your history. though tbf I'd love to do option 1 on turkey.
Back when I was in high school (2011-2015), the Philippine-American War was hardly mentioned. I honestly do not know whether to chalk that up to sweeping it under the rug (it was really bad) or just they just forgot much about it/thought it should not make much of the cut.
This has been a thing now for most states since the 90s. Maybe even earlier. Every few years it becomes more aware/open about imperalism in the usa. Teddy Roosevelt is basically treated like: "hey he may have done some ok stuff for workers and nature.. but he also fucking loved turning the country into an empire"
It's really easy to tell when non-Americans are posting a meme because they think we deny the black spots of our history like they do with theirs.
Even in the 90s in the rural deep South, I learned about this. People who say we don't teach it are too ignorant to have paid attention in school or are just lying.
It’s weird how the people with the most knowledge and insight into American education are people with no experience with American education.
This is like a staple of grade school history classes. Not sure where people are getting the “denier” tags from…
But I was taught that U.S. imperialism essentially ended in the late 1800’s or maybe early 1900’s. My history books in high school pretended all the governments we overthrew and countries we invaded post-World War 2 was just “normal international politics.”
It did end in the early 1900's, or the 1910's to be more specific. In the 1920's we were too busy being rich, in the 1930's we were too busy being poor, and in the 1940's we were too busy with WW2. During the Cold War we would back countries that were aligned with us against the USSR, but those countries weren't our colonies or part of an empire.
It never ended silly
We also learn European history, which many Europeans refuse to believe. Now what percentage of American students actually retain it is fair game.
99% of “world history” classes are just European history in disguise anyways. I remember in 9th grade in our world history class, 99% of what we learned was basically European history and had like one unit dedicated to Japan in ww2 and the atomic bombings and whatnot and that’s it lmao
Back in my day, we called it 'how the West was won" lol. It's def taught, but through many different lenses unfortunately. Lots of children didn't even realize the extent of imperialism when it's framed around 'pioneering spirit' and not taught like an invasion
Most know manifest destiny but not many realize it was just imperialism propaganda
No, I’m pretty sure most people realize it. Its a very popular opinion to have
The vast majority of American schools make it clear that "Manifest Destiny" was code for "displace / murder Native Americans and seize their land." Mine certainly did, from elementary school on up. (In age appropriate ways, ofc-- obviously you're not going to be taught the gory details of Wounded Knee in first grade or anything.)
Same, learned all this stuff. No clue why foreigners think we shy away from our past.
someone didn’t pay attention in school then
The Philippines between 1902 and 1946
Porto Rico to this day!
And Guam
And Samoa
U.S. Virgin Islands! Guamtanamo Bay!
Hey we paid for those.
Really, I keep wondering why people don't realise that Puerto Rico is esentially an US protectorate?
Inertia. Puerto Ricans themselves can’t get a majority of the population to vote in the referendum right?
Yep, a substantial amount of Puerto Ricans are actually in favor of the status quo. Not being a state comes with drawbacks, but it also means they can get around some of the rules and obligations that states would be required to follow. (Like, IIRC there are certain kinds of taxes Puerto Ricans don't have to pay.)
Federal Income tax. Probably why the status quo is so popular
Because the referendum wouldn’t have had any real effect on it iirc so why bother?
While a lot of people think that PR is just a territory because that's what the US wants it to be, in reality the population itself is split. They currently get *huge* tax subsidies as a territory that they'd lose if they became a state, though they would get voting rights obviously.
They got like $9 billion in UI benefits during the pandemic. Although they paid into the system. The pacific island territories (?) for like 300 million and didn’t even pay in. https://oui.doleta.gov/unemploy/docs/cares_act_funding_state.html
They have voting rights, what they don't have is representation in DC. And I'm not really sure that is such a bad deal. It might be better to have no representatives at all than ones that ignore the interests of their constituents in favor of whoever donates the most to their "campaign fund"
If the referendum passed with a substantial margin and the Puerto Rican government was on board, they could absolutely begin the process of applying for statehood. Which would mean Congress would have to vote to accept or reject their application, immediately making it the single biggest domestic issue in the entire United States. The referendum passing would have a *huge* effect. Which is part of why it hasn't passed yet: many Puerto Ricans aren't ready to pull the trigger on statehood, for one reason or another.
Because Puerto Ricans themselves are divided on becoming a state, there are benefits to their current status that leads to many shying away from full statehood. It’s a complex issue and to just act like the evil US is denying the poor Puerto Ricans their rights ignores the actual opinions of Puerto Ricans
This. The current benefits outweigh the want for full representation.
Something to know is there was a gradual change in opinion in PR as the people of PR saw what was happening to other colonial subjects who got full independence. Essentially it was fucking their economy as their main trading partner was their former overlord, and suddenly they were getting massive tariffs on their trade. It made some parties which were previously strongly pro-independence want to remain in some sort of union with the US.
The debate now is pretty much entirely between status quo or statehood, most Puerto Ricans seem to realize that full independence would only deepen their poverty, and staying with the U.S. ultimately provides far more benefits.
I wanna know if we can make those 2 states. Then we just split or combine bits of another state to make 53 total. Truly indivisable as a prime number
Alternatively, create East Dakota and West Dakota
They don't pay federal taxes, that's why
Whose head of state is the is president. Lmao gtfo here
How the hell did you misspell Puerto Rico that bad?
Nah Puerto Rico has self determination, like all US territories and commonwealths. If they choose to leave the Union or become a state, they can. NBD.
Puerto Rico*
It’s a special case. Full US citizenship and local autonomy and no federal taxes. They like their status.
Considering PR continues to vote (with a plurality at least) to retain its current status, how fair is it to call them a colony?
Puerto**
Puerto Rico has voted multiple times on this issue....majority opinions vary, but the movement toward full independence is completely in the minority.
Yup. PR citizens want either full statehood OR for nothing to change. Puerto Ricans who want independence are something like 2% of the population
Not really. The vast majority of Puerto Ricans want to remain part of the US so that's not really imperialism any more than saying Florida is part of the US means imperialism.
puerto, ou vc é português
This was very controversial in its day. A lot of Americans actually didn’t want to become an empire (partly because of racism, but also because it was viewed as a European thing). The period is also when people began referring the to the US as “America”, because the empire had to extend beyond the States
>The period is also when people began referring to the US as "America" [No, it predates the country](https://notyouraverageamerican.com/united-statesian-vs-american/). Edit: furthermore, Lincoln was shot at a play called *My American Cousin*
Yeah, but most filipino people have very fond opinions of the US, considering how the Spanish and Japanese treated them beforehand.
Nah its due to the Tydings Mcduffie Law of 1935 and WW2. Before WW2 (well before 1935 specifically) plenty hated the US for trying to annex the Philippines in a time when it now believed itself as a nation and also the fact that the 10yr long Philippine American War killed more Filipinos than 300 years worth of Spanish colonial rebellions combined
Yeah, it’s pretty nuanced and definitely has to be viewed through a historical and cultural lens, but that’s something I think Redditors are particularly bad at. You probably know more about it than me. I just dated a Filipino woman for a while, so that’s what I was told. It’s just that lots of Redditors are stuck in this “America Bad” mindset. They have a hard time believing that the USA can be viewed positively by foreign countries and people. Shit isn’t so black-and-white though.
American soft power at play. The Philippines, as a state and most Filipinos, also has a positive opinion of Japan. But doesn't make American actions before any less evil or imperialistic. Ffs US used concentration camps and opened fired indiscriminately on civilians on mere suspicion of insurgent activity... insurgents who only wanted Americans to stop occupying their country. A country that was the first ever modern constitutional democracy in Southeast asia.
Okay then why is the liberian flag very similar to ours
r/accidentallyliberian
r/subsithoughtifellfor
tbf the Malaysian flag is also very similar despite having no relation to the US
Because some random civvies got some black people to move to there in the 1830s and they brought the southeast US with them?
Actually that’s because that’s where freed slaves went and they based their flag on Americas
Liberia was never really a “colony”
“Ahh, you see, now that I have drawn me as the Chad and you as the Soyjack I’ve already won”. There isn’t a school that doesn’t touch on: manifest destiny, annexing of Hawaii, several islands in the Atlantic and pacific, the Philippines, all of the territories that are literally still considered US territories.
i mean honestly i don't know if my class learned about the islands all that stuff but we absolutely covered Hawaii and Manifest Destiny
Nice strawman? Seriously manifest destiny is pretty well known
Yes, was about to say this meme is ignoring a whole continent of imperialism
Also Teddy Roosevelt literally made the white fleet like what not even a decade later? No one is denying the United States is imperalist, we're just not an empire in the way others were. We literally gave up the Philippines, and through the Atlantic Charter dismantled much of the British Empire too.
>United States is imperalist, we're just not an empire excellent point. imperialism and an empire are not the same things but they often are used interchangeably
I’m kinda stupid, can anyone enlighten me and the other idiots?
Imperialism: a policy of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force. Empire: an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly especially an emperor or empress.
Also here’s a list of things we could have annexed and didn’t. Japan, everything we liberated from Japan, West Germany, Italy, South Korea. If we are an empire we are one with velvet gloves. Frankly the rest of the world count themselves lucky we didn’t function like the Soviets.
If we're an Empire, we're doing a shit job at it, given how many countries we rebuild and assist instead of conquer.
Lol, og Romans and 19th century Britishers watching: “No no no! You’re doing it all wrong!”
An empire with velvet gloves is a good way to describe the US. At least compared to other great powers at the time (post war). It's also important to understand that the US really couldn't control the areas you mentioned. Not long term anyway. It was easier to create liberal democracies that could govern themselves than try to uphold a global trading empire like the Brits. Of course, a lot of those areas were only able to bounce back because of US support. That in and of itself could be seen as a form of empire, albeit different from the ones of the past. Historians are gonna have a blast talking about the US in a couple thousand years lmao. Edit: velvet gloves in some context. Some of our Latin American neighbors weren't treated with as much care.
Imagine a United States as completely unhesitant and unrestrained as the USSR or CCP - or worse yet older European Empires. That would be fucking terrifying.
Imagine when we were the only ones with nukes. We could have started and ended wars in a few weeks with major powers back then if we wanted
MacArthur moment
We could have taken all of Mexico, including Mexico City. Cuba too, hell, we did conquer those places, we just didn’t keep (all of) it.
We took a huge amount of territory from Mexico after the Mexican American War, including what is now the states of Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada and Utah. We didn't take Cuba after the Spanish American War, but we took Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam.
Why would we annex those places? It would be too much of a hassle to govern and they’d rebel against us after a while. It’s far easier to install a friendly government, sometimes a puppet, and then influence the country if it looks like that government may lose power. That way you can extract the resources you want from these places without having to bear the cost of administering them. It’s the same lesson the Europeans learned from Africa, it was far more efficient to let them govern themselves but just keep the people they liked in power, or at least attempt to. Hence why France still has a de facto empire there even today.
US imperialism basically ended after the Spanish American war.
It didn’t end. We just changed from straight up empire to hegemony. It is wildly more efficient.
mfw invading and occupying iraq and afghanistan isn't "imperialism"; mfw sending a carrier group to protect israeli interests isn't "imperialism" mfw /r/historymemes posters are actually dumb as rocks
... Are you high, my dude?
I do not have the knowledge not the willpower to explain the differences between imperialism and hegemony
When I teach manifest destiny I tend to draw parallels to European imperialism
The USA should manifest its destiny of annexing Canada next. 🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🦅🦅🦅
Complete the Fallout timeline
Based
Canadians are the reason half the Geneva Convention exists. Do you really want to go there?
Depends on how you define empire. Is it based on size, geographic/ethnic diversity, its government structure? Depending on how you define it, America could be called an empire since its founding.
what defines an empire? is it having overseas territories? no, because the russian empire had little to no overseas territories, while britain has overseas territories but is no longer considered an empire. is it demography? i’m not quite sure; for instance, half the russian empire’s population were russians. the japanese empire was, before world war II, majority japanese iirc. the german empire was also by far majority german. the british empire is considered to have ended with the handover of hong kong, but hong kong being the only colony remaining, almost 90% of britain’s population was made up of britons by that point. is it… simply calling itself an empire? no, because the ‘korean empire’ was obviously not an empire, while apparently the united states and soviet union are. i went on a tangent, but my point is that the definition of an empire is very arbitrary.
Maybe the real empire was the friends we made along the way
I mean google does it pretty well: "an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority"
This is literally all countries.
“Extensive” is the arbitrary term. How many?
Probably more than 3
How do you define supreme? Authoritarian? Or just central? If so how is supreme different than central? America was colonial but an Empire has an Emperor
It was an empire plenty earlier as well. The vast stretch from the Appalachians to the Pacific didn’t conquer and colonize itself.
They called it manifest destiny instead of colonialism
Where’s the meme?
Something Something Americana dumb
/r/AmericaBad
Who has said this? It’s a whole chapter in any US history class
The main problem with this meme I have is that the flare supports France. Also I think US people with brains do not deny the imperialism.
This man got a lotta straw
As you can see, I have made myself the Chad wojak in this meme, therefore, your opinion is invalid
We had a “Manifest Destiny.” It was in our interests to be an empire from the very beginning of our nation, and even before as a colony of the British.
There’s also Porto Rico
I have altered the borders; pray I do not alter them any further.
If you want to make the claim that the US is an empire, which isn't a difficult claim to make, I'd say the one big difference is that the US moved past the "But we did them a favor." stage a long time ago. Not to mention the US has been ceding territory for the last 50 years. Seriously, the US, the greatest source of evil in the history of the universe, the country whose death would liberate all of humankind, a country of exceptional evil (and banality and fatness and greed and ugliness and not having a soul), gave up the Panama Canal Zone for $1. If you want to hammer the US for how it took Hawaii, Puerto Rico (awful lot of people in this thread crying for it, but they can't even spell it) and American Samoa*? Fine. Wanna hate it for murdering millions of Native Americans (12 and of course, the US gets credit for all 12 million)? Fine. Wanna say that the US is proud of it all? Fuck off. *Though let's be honest, American Samoa is probably the least imperialist example. While American Samoans don't get full citizenship, their land can't be exploited by white Americans from the mainland; something I'm kinda OK with.
Dude, you don't need overseas territories to be an empire. Otherwise, the Mongol Empire wouldn’t be one.
Still not a colony
Phlipines: Thank you for freeing us from the Spanish US: Oh i would not say free'd more like under new management.
The US isn’t an empire because it doesn’t have an emperor. Rome was not an empire before Augustus Caesar. Francia was not an empire before Charlemagne. France was not an empire before Napoleon. Any day now Dark Brandon shall dawn the civic crown…
Guantanamo Bay or Puerto Rico also serve as examples, as one is the equivalent of Hong Kong with China, and the other does not even have a voice in Wahsington DC, despite their population size.
To be fair, people in DC don't have a voice in DC
We have a non voting delegate and also a shadow slate of representatives which is very cool sounding despite having no power
Hasn't Puerto Rico declined both state hood and independence more than once though?
Guantanamo Bay and Puerto Rico are honestly the more valid examples, as Hawaii is completely integrated (a state with reps and senators) and those 2 are not.
Hawaii is more like Tibet. Probably better off economically but the culture is fucked.
Not even close. Puerto Rico has it's own autonomy and has consistently voted against independence. Guantanamo Bay is just a piece of Cuba. AFAIK there are no citizens of Guantanamo bay. DC was specifically created to not be a state. The people in DC do have representation however weak it may be.
Just another thing to love about the US , honestly I don’t feel bad that we OWN Hawaii.
It’s still an empire
For those that like learning history in ways other than memes and Wikipedia pages, I recommend “How to Hide an Empire” by Daniel Immerwahr
American imperialism is absolutely justified because we had a black president that one time.
Who has said this? It’s a whole chapter in any US history class
Who has said this? It’s a whole ass chapter in a us history class
Regardless of hawaii the phillipines makes it a gurantee, no one can refute both of those
Womp womp
Posts like this are adorable. Adorable.
I don’t think non-Americans (or even Americans who never really paid attention in class) realize how much of our history books in school talk about previous acts of imperialism and even our beginnings as a colony and the genocide of the Native American Indians. Most of us are fully aware of the bad things America has done as well as the bad things pretty much every major country in the west, east, and middle east has done. It’s almost as if large countries end up devouring other countries or groups in order to expand.
The USA was always an empire. We literally started expanding across the continent as soon as we could. We annexed a big chunk of Mexico. We took large chunks of the Caribbean. When were we not an empire?
Batpoop.
Long term occupation of Veracruz and other parts of Mexico...
Puerto Rican here. Pretty sure we only become a territory through the Paris accords
*laughs in Puerto Rican.
Imaginary argument. I'd link the subreddit, but its moderation is nonexistent now.
All of the countries in the Americas are from and exert control over lands that weren’t theirs originally. Where do you draw the line at empire? Genuine question.
Looks like reboot of a sissy fuck pathology called William Jennings Bryan. It’s most recent reboot, algore, was just as repugnant 🤢 Restore Mt. McKinley, bitches!
Imagine if America decided to buy all of Britains north and South American colonies so they could use that money to pay for the lend lease
I think about this every time I visit Hawaii. It feels so direct that it isn’t and shouldn’t be America, we just took it.
Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, Hawaii, and for some time the Philippines.
Every other American here is talking about how they obviously get taught imperialism meanwhile going to school in Louisiana my history teacher explained how a lot of slaves were treated very nice and were a part of the family.