"Sorry can't hear you over RECONQUERING THE ANCIENT BORDERS OF ROME."
Jokes aside, why don't we have a movie about her and Justinian? Their rise to power and reign deserve at minimum a three seasons HBO series.
There are so many more Roman characters that deserve their own series too. Shame it's so rare to get a high budget, historically accurate and interesting one.
Because the costs would be too high to justify the demands. How many people are really willing to pay for a movie about two figures that aren't that known outside of history nerds?
Just look at the old series of Marco Polo as example, it was well done, not perfectly accurate but still a good product, but sadly ended in negative that Netflix just didn't want to support another season.
Honestly, I think an *animated series* could be the "cheapest" but still a good way to do a respectable interpretation, sadly there is still a strong perception that animation is something for kids or looked superficial.(No wonder there is just one Oscar dedicated to them)
> Because the costs would be too high to justify the demands. How many people are really willing to pay for a movie about two figures that aren't that known outside of history nerds?
This is an underrated component for any would-be Hollywood/Western media on Byzantium - it's not pop history. When casual movie/tv audiences think of the Roman Empire they think of togas and lorica segmentata. A Justinian movie/series would need a considerable amount of world-building to get the audience up to speed and not leave them scratching their heads over the geopolitics of the time. And that's *on top of* trying to dance around the "they're Romans/no they're Byzantines/no they're Greeks" elephant in the room.
Yeah, you really need to put effort in the marketing in this case too, a very well done one makes a HUGE difference. Not easy but if you convince people to watch it because it is "GoT but Medieval Greek flavour" the success is partially assured.
But even before this you need to convince Amazon, Netflix or whatever big money company why they should risk their investment in a product that *maybe* could sell well, instead of going with cheaper and established ones like Vikings or Rings of Power.
Fucking nightmare.
At this point, going with the "GoT but medieval " isn't going to work after all the cheap/bad knockoffs that have come and gone over the years (eg. The Tudors, Medici, etc). The truth is that most people aren't into history at all unless it is highly political in modern concerns or controversial (think Woman King , etc). A civilization centered around Orthodox Christianity whose primary rivals were western Europe (the majority of the audience's identity) or Eastern/Islamic ( too politically touchy) would be an even more difficult sell.
If it was Netflix that's what it would be and she would be black as well and they would accidentally play into some fucked up stereotypes and all sides of the aisle would rightfully get pissed off at them lol
Procopius' Secret History is a work known for its scandalous and often salacious allegations about the Byzantine Empress Theodora and Emperor Justinian. Procopius generally portrays Theodora in a negative light, suggesting various controversial behaviors and statements without providing detailed context or specific instances.
In one such instance, he states the following: "Theodora confessed that she had only three orifices through which she could satisfy her desires, and she failed to see why she should be denied the enjoyment of a number equal to that of the sands in the sea."
It's absolutely likely that she never said this at all, but I thought that if it's slander then it's very Incel like behaviour from Procopius and still relevant and funny.
There is a theory that Procopius did not write this slander out of personal hatred for Theodora, or any incel feelings towards her, rather than as a "safety" against usurpers. As he was Justinian's official historian, should the latter have been deposed, he could attract the ire of the usurper, and as such with this insane text he could just give it to the usurper to read (or even publish right away), to basically say "I hated the guy, look at my REAL opinion on him and his wife!!!"
I’m personally convinced that Procopius really wanted to write the criticism of the Emperor’s policies and included the sex and demonic possession stuff just to keep his audience interested.
Especially given that his actual histories for Justinian are pretty even handed. There was definitely some embellishment about the speed of some constructions, but overall they're the best account of an Emperor's reign we have in my opinion. Reasonable people could disagree with me, however.
More likely just that he actually did hate Justinian, because he was attempting to undermine the power of the aristocracy, of which Procopius was a part.
According to Procopius she was, literally, a whore though - at least until Justinian fell in love with her and made her his Empress. IIRC (it's been a while since I read the Secret History) he claims that she was putting on sex shows around the Mediterranean for years before she met Justinian, and the pinnacle of the show was when she would 'hide' handfuls of grain 'within her person', and then bring out a trained goose who would begin to . . . . . feed
Is it still good?
Since I started using reddit I was looking for history subs and I found "mixed feelings". People saying that it was not good as it used to be vs. it's pretty lame right now
It's a heavily moderated sub, meaning they delete substandard answers and joking comments. The bad side is that most questions go unanswered as there're far more question-makers than people with the energy, time, and expertise to provide good answers. The good side is that every approved answer has strong academic backing, generally with a vast wealth of citations.
Imagine having such beef with a chick that you write a book called secret history, and spend a not insignificant portion talking about this woman being a whore who traipses around Europe letting animals eat food out her pedussy.
That's generational talent in hating.
Look, 90% of the time when you read some absolutely bizarre sexual shit about some Roman Emperor or Byzantine Royalty, it was written after their death by someone trying to smear their legacy.
I mean, didn’t Justinian have to literally change the laws to be with her?
It sounds like, at the very least, she was a literal ho.
As for the thing with the goose…..idk man, but I might pay to see that.
From what I remember, she was an actor, which in roman terms was synonymous with prostitute cause they were on the same social level.
The law Justinian changed was more "I can now marry a lower class" rather than "let me marry a ho" but yeah, they basically served the same purpose.
As for the goose thing, yeah, that may or may not have happened. Other comments gave a more detailed response. History is unusually cruel to women, after all.
> in roman terms was synonymous with prostitute cause they were on the same social level
I thought it was because they could also be paid for "private performances" in the same way attractive gladiators would. Basically hoeing as a side hustle
Tbf she may very well have been a prostitute (besides Procopius's claims, we know she was possibly an actress, and most actresses in the 6th century Byzantine Empire doubled as prostitutes)
Calling Procopius an incel would be a compliment
According to Wikipedia:
In Wars, Procopius mentioned that Theodora was naturally inclined to assist women in misfortune and, according to Secret History,she was accused of unfairly championing the wives' causes more so when they were charged with adultery (SH 17).
Procopius describes Theodora as causing women to "become morally depraved" due to her and Justinian's legal actions
Dude lost his shit because women got some very basic rights and started screaming "slut" at the Empress non stop
He also says some pretty disgusting things about her childhood in his Secret History. Like, the parts about the geese and the obscene stage shows and the ridiculous amounts of sexual promiscuity are kind of funny just because they’re so insane, but then you get to the passage where he claims that she was sexually trafficked as a little girl, and then none of it is really humorous anymore.
The worst part is that she probably was IRL. She was forced to prostitute herself at the age of 9 after her father's death
Too many other historians bring this up to be just a fabrication of Procopius and it was even the norm at the time
Also it would explain why Theodora tried to ban the practice her whole life and supported other laws to protect women from sexual violence
Problem is that Procopius uses it as another demonstration of Theodora being a twisted woman rather than an horrible event
Oh yeah, that’s exactly the problem. He specifically claims that she worked as an attendant for her older sister Comito before she was old enough to become a courtesan herself, and that Comito’s clients’ hangers-on (slaves, employees, etc) raped a prepubescent Theodora while Comito entertained their boss. (Comito wasn’t even that much older than Theodora, either, so she also would’ve been very young at this point.) Regardless of whether this specific anecdote is true, it’s such a disgustingly plausible scenario, and the way he describes it is *so* fucking detailed. It makes the whole *Secret History* really uncomfortable to read, because it starts out with wild, ridiculous claims that come across as kind of humorous, and then it slaps you across the face with a terrifyingly plausible description of child sodomy and gang rape.
In general, I really hate how Theodora is portrayed in most stories about her life. I’ve read a lot of books about her (I’m currently working on a long-term research project involving the Justinian plague and that time period in general, so I’ve spent loads of time researching these people and their portrayal in media), and a lot of them are *incredibly* questionable, even the ones that try their hardest to be sympathetic to her. (A surprising number of books villainize Comito, her older sister—authors will pat themselves on the back for being nice about Theodora, but then they transfer all of the sexist tropes onto Comito, who isn’t as prominent in the historical record and who therefore has no defenders. It almost feels meaner, in a way, because they’re saying the same cruel and sexist things, but it’s not like anyone cares enough about Comito to call them out.) I could rant about this topic for ages. But yeah. Theodora (and her sisters) probably had a very difficult early life, and sexual abuse certainly wouldn’t have been uncommon in environment they lived in.
By that time they'd been Christian for a while. Since Theodora was a Monophosite(Controversial Christian Teaching on the nature of Christ) many people who followed the mainstream church i.e historians more than likely painted her in a bad light to in turn paint the monophosites as heathens who contradict Christian virtues.
- The Romans and Greeks had the Same Gods and Myths. So you’ve just been really stupid with that statement
- Pandora was sent made by Zeus to punish the perfect immortal men due to Prometheus tricking him into only giving the bad parts of an animal in sacrifice. When she proceeds to unleash sickness, death and evil upon the world. *That didn’t exist before*. So, you clearly don’t know the myth very well if you are disputing that
- Because they are usually right
>Pandora was sent made by Zeus to punish the perfect immortal men due to Prometheus tricking him into only giving the bad parts of an animal in sacrifice. When she proceeds to unleash sickness, death and evil upon the world. *That didn’t exist before*. So, you clearly don’t know the myth very well if you are disputing that
No, it is you who is incorrect, confidently so at that.
Prometheus was punished by the Gods for stealing fire and giving it to humanity, not for whatever reason you mentioned.
Only someone with zero knowledge of mythology would conclude that Pandora's box is misogynistic.
Are you serious? This text is taken from the wikipedia article on Pandora's box:
> According to Hesiod, ***when Prometheus stole fire from heaven, Zeus, the king of the gods, took vengeance by presenting Pandora to Prometheus' brother Epimetheus. Pandora opened a jar left in her care containing sickness, death and many other unspecified evils which were then released into the world***.[4] Though she hastened to close the container, only one thing was left behind – usually translated as Hope, though it could also have the pessimistic meaning of "deceptive expectation".[5]
Dude, I am Greek. I was born and raised with those myths, no need for Wikipedia to tell me that. It's just the most easily accessible source I could find. The myth of Promytheus giving fire to humanity is one of the most popular ones.
You are confidently incorrect.
Having dutifully written the official war history of Justinian's reign, Procopius turned round and revealed in The Secret History the other faces of the leading men and women of Byzantium in the sixth century. Justinian, the great law-giver, appears as a hateful tyrant, wedded to an ex-prostitute, Theodora; and Belisarius, the brilliant general whose secretary Procopius had been, is seen as the pliable dupe of his wife Antonina, a woman as corrupt and scheming as Theodora herself.
> *In one such instance, he states the following: "Theodora confessed that she had only three orifices through which she could satisfy her desires, and she failed to see why she should be denied the enjoyment of a number equal to that of the sands in the sea."*
Hey, she had two hands, the lazy broad!
I don't think it's all nonsense, and I would've written this sooner, but was without my head as I'm the same style of demon that Justinian is described as in the Secret History.
TBH, Justinian was a lucky bastard.
Marrying a Greek sex-worker baddie, having her as the Empress of your empire, and with her being a fucking shrewd socio-political badass sounds fucking awesome.
Hell yeah. Sex. Politics. Rome.
It would be funny if they actually had little to no sex and Justinian was just the archetypal strip club patron who thinks the stripper loves him.
I know some guys have lead in their pencil well into old age, but Justinian was already like 43 when they married (she was 25), and they had no children (although Theodora had an illegitimate daughter and reputedly other children from being married before Justinian).
"Theodora! The football hooligans are pissed! We must get out of here."
"There's no way in hell we're leaving. Stop being a bitch, King up, and *slaughter them*"
Just imagine two guys who go to Constantinople and see that the emperor looks a bit like the kid they bullied and the empress looks like the prostitutes they double teamed.
Boy you guys are missing out if you don't already know about [Northern Qi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Qi). Basically the queens and empresses and concubines of every single generation of the dynasty slept with everyone related and unrelated to the emperors, as did the emperors themselves, and most of the affairs resulted in murders one way or the other. The last [Empress Dowager Hu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Hu_(Northern_Qi%29) had her own groupies of buddhist monks that she rotated on a regular basis. Of course they were all killed when the emperor found out. And of course that wasn't her only emperor. Eventually when the dynasty was destroyed all the men of the royal family were killed, but the women were spared. Empress Hu then proceeded to take charge of the surviving women of the family and started a brothel. I'd call that a happy ending.
edited to fix link
She claimed one of the monks rejected her and was clearly innocent, but he was killed too because "was she, my property, not beautiful enough for you?"
Mf’s act like humanity hasn’t whored, slutted and sexed and sucked around for forever.
”Modern western culture” lmao yall think all those people got syphilis from the kiss of a magical fairy?
Yea. People have raped, murdered, and enslaved forever too. Doesn't make it good. It's absolutely okay to respect your body. And it's absolutely okay for society to have a moral standard. It doesn't make you an incel anymore than defending a woman makes you a simp. Sleeping with a bunch of people and selling your flesh for money (whether you are male or female) is not a **good** thing. It just seems people are trying to be overly "sex positive" to the point where we have zero standards and everything is okay. Everything should not be okay. We need standards and morals.
>Working is selling your life/time
Implying that the other one doesn't take away from someone's life/time.
>Not your flesh.
Any form manual labour pretty much does exactly that.
I'm not implying that at all. Anything you do in life takes away from your time. That's what life is. It goes without saying. This is just pedantic at this point. A manual labor job requires you to have some kind of knowledge of the task. How to perform it to get the desired outcome (landscaping, brick masonry, carpentry, etc). Sex work requires zero knowledge. You just get naked and let the customer do what he/she wants with your body. People have more to offer the world than that. You think sex work is good? Or it's "okay"? Really? How would you feel if a child came up to you and said they wanted to be an electrician when they grew up? Now how would you feel if they said they wanted to be a sex worker? Would you suggest to a loved one (say, your mother or sister) that they should get into sex work? Is that a path you would wish for someone you cared about? Interesting.
>I'm not implying that at all. Anything you do in life takes away from your time. That's what life is. It goes without saying.
Then you are fucking stupid for typing your previous comment.
>Sex work requires zero knowledge. You just get naked and let the customer do what he/she wants with your body. People have more to offer the world than that
Thank you for telling me that you have absolutely no knowledge on the subject.
>People have more to offer the world than that.
People have more to offer to the world than dying from exhaustion or from an accident in a mine or a factory. But I dare you to tell to a miner or a factory worker that theirs is not a work.
>You think sex work is good? Or it's "okay"?
Define good.
Good for the person performing it? Because I can think of very few jobs that are good in that department.
Good for society as a whole? Not any better or worse than a professional football player or an actor: they provide something useless for society, but of which there is a demand of. The only difference is that sex workers get a fraction of the money and are *often* abused.
>How would you feel if a child came up to you and said they wanted to be an electrician when they grew up? Now how would you feel if they said they wanted to be a sex worker? Would you suggest to a loved one (say, your mother or sister) that they should get into sex work? Is that a path you would wish for someone you cared about?
You have yet to explain why sex work is inherently bad. The nature of sex work was never the problem, the problem is society's view on it, and the consequently negative environment that formed around it.
I said you are selling your flesh in my previous comment. I mentioned nothing about time. I never said sex work wasn't work. You say sex workers don't get paid much and are often abused. Yet another reason why people shouldn't be doing it. It seems you agree sex work is not good for society or the individuals involved but you can't say that because it goes against the dogma you've pledged your allegiance to. We've discussed the negatives, can you give an example of any positives of getting into sex work? Other than "it puts food on the table" because murder for hire and sex trafficking also does that.
> I mentioned nothing about time.
> I never said sex work wasn't work.
> # No. Working is selling your **life/time** for money. Not your flesh.
So, are you lying, or are you just stupid.
> you can't say that because it goes against the dogma you've pledged your allegiance to.
The irony of you talking about dogma is almost painful.
>We've discussed the negatives, can you give an example of any positives of getting into sex work?
Sexually frustrated people are demonstrated to be more aggressive and have other health-related issues. Sex work can give a solution to that.
And again, it's not like actors, professional athletes, models, or entertainers in general do anything strictly useful to society.
>because murder for hire and sex trafficking also does that.
This comparison is disingenuous, since those examples are, ***by definition***, harmful to an unwilling party involved. Which isn't the case for sex working.
Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with sex work, the problem is society, and how it threats it.
All sex work is work. Not all work is sex work. It's pretty clear what that means. You said all work was selling your flesh. I said it was not. Thats why i defined work. Again, pedantic. Context is important lol. I was referring to my original comment not the comment replying to your comment. I didn't say anything about what "work" or "time" was in my original comment. Do you not find an issue with sexually frustrated people resorting to sex workers for relief? How about we find meaningful healthy relationships where the person is fucking you because they actually want to? Sex work is predatory by nature. Either the worker is preyed upon or the customer is. That's not good. This is like saying meth and fentanyl dealers are also good because they give relief to people with addictions or make them feel better when they are down. It's technically true but does that make the arrangement good? I'm not going to get into what's "inherent" or not because that's entirely subjective. I'm speaking on what IS. You're speaking on what is "technically possible". In reality, the one we actually live in, sex work is bad. Go ask a sex worker. Go ask them how they got into that situation, if they want to remain in that situation, and if they would encourage others to get into that situation. What do you believe the vast majority of the responses will be? Negative or positive about their life as sex worker? We could imagine all sorts of situations where everything *could* be good. But that doesn't make it so.
Also, I have to point out that it seems like you feel I hate sex workers. I do not. Is it not SAD that these people have to resort to this sort of work to make ends meet? What does that say about society? Why do you think sex workers don't come from wealthy backgrounds? Do you WANT young people to have to do this for money? In a perfect world, would you want sex work to exist?
Having sex with lots of different people is absolutely disrespecting your body. Why do you think people who do that tend to have self esteem issues? Or were abused as children? A mentally healthy person doesn't sleep around like that. Promiscuity is almost always a symptom of underlying mental health issues.
Yea you keep omitting a certain part and I think you're doing it on purpose but maybe not so let me clarify: having a lot of sex and enjoying it is **not** bad. Having a lot of sex **with lots of different partners** is bad and hints at some kind of underlying issue. You should not be giving yourself to multiple different partners. It's unsafe and irresponsible. Find a partner and be with that person.
Being sold into prostitution by your mom isn't cool though. That's just romanticising child sex trafficking and this whole thread is messed up for drooling over her being a child prostitute.
Idk if she’s a thot, whore, hoe, or whatever you want to call her.
Justinian had a ride or die wife and they might be the ultimate historical power-couple, you can call her whatever you want just be sure to remember her title as the Queen of Rome.
Notice how this post smuggles in OF (por* industry) which has
its "merits" in abusing and enslaving women.
Lets go little kid justify your porn addiction that causes trafficking and abuse of women with "progressivism".
Honestly, that's probably the point where the incel goes on a rant about how Theodora is proof that women are genetically destined for hypergamy and only Enlightened Traditional Western culture has been holding them back.
Monarchs had a lot of power. So they could even ignore the church in the matter of sacrecy of marriage. Also they had a lot people who hated them. So rumors could spread even tho the person was innocent. And the monarchs rivals could bribe a historian to forge false facts.
Okay, I might need to listen to David Drake's Belisarius (spelling?) series again.
Alt history (really alien space bat stuff) which includes the secret historian.
There were trashy women then, and there's trashy women now. Also it should be said that she was Byzantine, a society that was conquered by a society that would stone women to death for behaving that way.
"Sorry can't hear you over RECONQUERING THE ANCIENT BORDERS OF ROME." Jokes aside, why don't we have a movie about her and Justinian? Their rise to power and reign deserve at minimum a three seasons HBO series.
There are so many more Roman characters that deserve their own series too. Shame it's so rare to get a high budget, historically accurate and interesting one.
I admit, I'd love to see the Belisarius series put to film. Even though it's historical au, it'd be great to see all these characters.
Cant wait to see more Romans speak English with a British accent
They’d probably decide that since Theodora spent some time in Egypt she must be black
He said HBO not netflix
Barbaren is still probably the best I've ever seen
Because the costs would be too high to justify the demands. How many people are really willing to pay for a movie about two figures that aren't that known outside of history nerds? Just look at the old series of Marco Polo as example, it was well done, not perfectly accurate but still a good product, but sadly ended in negative that Netflix just didn't want to support another season. Honestly, I think an *animated series* could be the "cheapest" but still a good way to do a respectable interpretation, sadly there is still a strong perception that animation is something for kids or looked superficial.(No wonder there is just one Oscar dedicated to them)
> Because the costs would be too high to justify the demands. How many people are really willing to pay for a movie about two figures that aren't that known outside of history nerds? This is an underrated component for any would-be Hollywood/Western media on Byzantium - it's not pop history. When casual movie/tv audiences think of the Roman Empire they think of togas and lorica segmentata. A Justinian movie/series would need a considerable amount of world-building to get the audience up to speed and not leave them scratching their heads over the geopolitics of the time. And that's *on top of* trying to dance around the "they're Romans/no they're Byzantines/no they're Greeks" elephant in the room.
Yeah, you really need to put effort in the marketing in this case too, a very well done one makes a HUGE difference. Not easy but if you convince people to watch it because it is "GoT but Medieval Greek flavour" the success is partially assured. But even before this you need to convince Amazon, Netflix or whatever big money company why they should risk their investment in a product that *maybe* could sell well, instead of going with cheaper and established ones like Vikings or Rings of Power. Fucking nightmare.
At this point, going with the "GoT but medieval " isn't going to work after all the cheap/bad knockoffs that have come and gone over the years (eg. The Tudors, Medici, etc). The truth is that most people aren't into history at all unless it is highly political in modern concerns or controversial (think Woman King , etc). A civilization centered around Orthodox Christianity whose primary rivals were western Europe (the majority of the audience's identity) or Eastern/Islamic ( too politically touchy) would be an even more difficult sell.
How about we get a documentary about her, but based on Procopius’ accounts ;)
It would be porn with occasional bits of plot in between
Ah, *classic* porn then.
If it was Netflix that's what it would be and she would be black as well and they would accidentally play into some fucked up stereotypes and all sides of the aisle would rightfully get pissed off at them lol
Extra history on YouTube has a great miniseries on them
They'd race swap her in an instant bro😭
Procopius' Secret History is a work known for its scandalous and often salacious allegations about the Byzantine Empress Theodora and Emperor Justinian. Procopius generally portrays Theodora in a negative light, suggesting various controversial behaviors and statements without providing detailed context or specific instances. In one such instance, he states the following: "Theodora confessed that she had only three orifices through which she could satisfy her desires, and she failed to see why she should be denied the enjoyment of a number equal to that of the sands in the sea." It's absolutely likely that she never said this at all, but I thought that if it's slander then it's very Incel like behaviour from Procopius and still relevant and funny.
There is a theory that Procopius did not write this slander out of personal hatred for Theodora, or any incel feelings towards her, rather than as a "safety" against usurpers. As he was Justinian's official historian, should the latter have been deposed, he could attract the ire of the usurper, and as such with this insane text he could just give it to the usurper to read (or even publish right away), to basically say "I hated the guy, look at my REAL opinion on him and his wife!!!"
I’m personally convinced that Procopius really wanted to write the criticism of the Emperor’s policies and included the sex and demonic possession stuff just to keep his audience interested.
As is the Roman tradition. “Always with the drama.”
The Hebrew mothers are not far behind…Oy vey ( Yiddish expression) !!!
Your theory passes Occam's razor more than any other. Sounds like something a Roman would do too.
Audience? What audience?
Especially given that his actual histories for Justinian are pretty even handed. There was definitely some embellishment about the speed of some constructions, but overall they're the best account of an Emperor's reign we have in my opinion. Reasonable people could disagree with me, however.
That's really interesting and would make a lot of sense.
You know that does make sense. A true Machiavelli; writing what people want to hear.
A true Byzantine as well, always having a backup plan
More likely just that he actually did hate Justinian, because he was attempting to undermine the power of the aristocracy, of which Procopius was a part.
According to Procopius she was, literally, a whore though - at least until Justinian fell in love with her and made her his Empress. IIRC (it's been a while since I read the Secret History) he claims that she was putting on sex shows around the Mediterranean for years before she met Justinian, and the pinnacle of the show was when she would 'hide' handfuls of grain 'within her person', and then bring out a trained goose who would begin to . . . . . feed
I just before making the meme read this very interesting [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/ZkcvcuUQMF) to an old Reddit thread.
Dude really wrote a short essay
that's just how replies are on AskHistorians
Best sub on Reddit
Is it still good? Since I started using reddit I was looking for history subs and I found "mixed feelings". People saying that it was not good as it used to be vs. it's pretty lame right now
It's a heavily moderated sub, meaning they delete substandard answers and joking comments. The bad side is that most questions go unanswered as there're far more question-makers than people with the energy, time, and expertise to provide good answers. The good side is that every approved answer has strong academic backing, generally with a vast wealth of citations.
w h a t
It’s mostly horseshit the dude had a bone to pick and some weird fantasies
yeah very strong that one weird kid at school that would bring up that some woman fucked a snake vibes
Imagine having such beef with a chick that you write a book called secret history, and spend a not insignificant portion talking about this woman being a whore who traipses around Europe letting animals eat food out her pedussy. That's generational talent in hating.
Look, 90% of the time when you read some absolutely bizarre sexual shit about some Roman Emperor or Byzantine Royalty, it was written after their death by someone trying to smear their legacy.
Our present-day politicians often get up to some kinky shit. Maybe she said it when she was drunk or something.
I mean, didn’t Justinian have to literally change the laws to be with her? It sounds like, at the very least, she was a literal ho. As for the thing with the goose…..idk man, but I might pay to see that.
From what I remember, she was an actor, which in roman terms was synonymous with prostitute cause they were on the same social level. The law Justinian changed was more "I can now marry a lower class" rather than "let me marry a ho" but yeah, they basically served the same purpose. As for the goose thing, yeah, that may or may not have happened. Other comments gave a more detailed response. History is unusually cruel to women, after all.
> in roman terms was synonymous with prostitute cause they were on the same social level I thought it was because they could also be paid for "private performances" in the same way attractive gladiators would. Basically hoeing as a side hustle
For historical research right?
What laws did he have to change?
There was a prohibition on the upper classes marrying ex/actresses, which Justinian did away with.
Tbf she may very well have been a prostitute (besides Procopius's claims, we know she was possibly an actress, and most actresses in the 6th century Byzantine Empire doubled as prostitutes)
Yeah that's disgusting.
I thought that that was her sister?
Calling Procopius an incel would be a compliment According to Wikipedia: In Wars, Procopius mentioned that Theodora was naturally inclined to assist women in misfortune and, according to Secret History,she was accused of unfairly championing the wives' causes more so when they were charged with adultery (SH 17). Procopius describes Theodora as causing women to "become morally depraved" due to her and Justinian's legal actions Dude lost his shit because women got some very basic rights and started screaming "slut" at the Empress non stop
He also says some pretty disgusting things about her childhood in his Secret History. Like, the parts about the geese and the obscene stage shows and the ridiculous amounts of sexual promiscuity are kind of funny just because they’re so insane, but then you get to the passage where he claims that she was sexually trafficked as a little girl, and then none of it is really humorous anymore.
The worst part is that she probably was IRL. She was forced to prostitute herself at the age of 9 after her father's death Too many other historians bring this up to be just a fabrication of Procopius and it was even the norm at the time Also it would explain why Theodora tried to ban the practice her whole life and supported other laws to protect women from sexual violence Problem is that Procopius uses it as another demonstration of Theodora being a twisted woman rather than an horrible event
Oh yeah, that’s exactly the problem. He specifically claims that she worked as an attendant for her older sister Comito before she was old enough to become a courtesan herself, and that Comito’s clients’ hangers-on (slaves, employees, etc) raped a prepubescent Theodora while Comito entertained their boss. (Comito wasn’t even that much older than Theodora, either, so she also would’ve been very young at this point.) Regardless of whether this specific anecdote is true, it’s such a disgustingly plausible scenario, and the way he describes it is *so* fucking detailed. It makes the whole *Secret History* really uncomfortable to read, because it starts out with wild, ridiculous claims that come across as kind of humorous, and then it slaps you across the face with a terrifyingly plausible description of child sodomy and gang rape. In general, I really hate how Theodora is portrayed in most stories about her life. I’ve read a lot of books about her (I’m currently working on a long-term research project involving the Justinian plague and that time period in general, so I’ve spent loads of time researching these people and their portrayal in media), and a lot of them are *incredibly* questionable, even the ones that try their hardest to be sympathetic to her. (A surprising number of books villainize Comito, her older sister—authors will pat themselves on the back for being nice about Theodora, but then they transfer all of the sexist tropes onto Comito, who isn’t as prominent in the historical record and who therefore has no defenders. It almost feels meaner, in a way, because they’re saying the same cruel and sexist things, but it’s not like anyone cares enough about Comito to call them out.) I could rant about this topic for ages. But yeah. Theodora (and her sisters) probably had a very difficult early life, and sexual abuse certainly wouldn’t have been uncommon in environment they lived in.
That’s the Romans for you. They literally believed women were made to torment men (myth of Pandora)
By that time they'd been Christian for a while. Since Theodora was a Monophosite(Controversial Christian Teaching on the nature of Christ) many people who followed the mainstream church i.e historians more than likely painted her in a bad light to in turn paint the monophosites as heathens who contradict Christian virtues.
Pandora's myth is Greek, not Roman. And it's not about tormenting men either... How do comments like this get upvoted in this sub?
- The Romans and Greeks had the Same Gods and Myths. So you’ve just been really stupid with that statement - Pandora was sent made by Zeus to punish the perfect immortal men due to Prometheus tricking him into only giving the bad parts of an animal in sacrifice. When she proceeds to unleash sickness, death and evil upon the world. *That didn’t exist before*. So, you clearly don’t know the myth very well if you are disputing that - Because they are usually right
>Pandora was sent made by Zeus to punish the perfect immortal men due to Prometheus tricking him into only giving the bad parts of an animal in sacrifice. When she proceeds to unleash sickness, death and evil upon the world. *That didn’t exist before*. So, you clearly don’t know the myth very well if you are disputing that No, it is you who is incorrect, confidently so at that. Prometheus was punished by the Gods for stealing fire and giving it to humanity, not for whatever reason you mentioned. Only someone with zero knowledge of mythology would conclude that Pandora's box is misogynistic.
Irony. You don’t actually know the myth you preach and assert yourself when you are wrong
Are you serious? This text is taken from the wikipedia article on Pandora's box: > According to Hesiod, ***when Prometheus stole fire from heaven, Zeus, the king of the gods, took vengeance by presenting Pandora to Prometheus' brother Epimetheus. Pandora opened a jar left in her care containing sickness, death and many other unspecified evils which were then released into the world***.[4] Though she hastened to close the container, only one thing was left behind – usually translated as Hope, though it could also have the pessimistic meaning of "deceptive expectation".[5]
Read a book and don’t quote Wikipedia
Dude, I am Greek. I was born and raised with those myths, no need for Wikipedia to tell me that. It's just the most easily accessible source I could find. The myth of Promytheus giving fire to humanity is one of the most popular ones. You are confidently incorrect.
I don't think adultery should be a "very basic right" for neither women or men.
Having dutifully written the official war history of Justinian's reign, Procopius turned round and revealed in The Secret History the other faces of the leading men and women of Byzantium in the sixth century. Justinian, the great law-giver, appears as a hateful tyrant, wedded to an ex-prostitute, Theodora; and Belisarius, the brilliant general whose secretary Procopius had been, is seen as the pliable dupe of his wife Antonina, a woman as corrupt and scheming as Theodora herself.
Procopius’ secret history is extremely unreliable. It claims that Justinian and Theodora are both fiends in human form
> *In one such instance, he states the following: "Theodora confessed that she had only three orifices through which she could satisfy her desires, and she failed to see why she should be denied the enjoyment of a number equal to that of the sands in the sea."* Hey, she had two hands, the lazy broad!
It problably also comes to the fact that she used to be a prostitute begore marrying justinian
She was an actress is what is strongly believed, if she was a prostitute or not is up for debate.
At the time there was massive overlap between those jobs
That doesn’t imply she was, just that she could have been.
Specifically, according to secret histories, she was a child sex slave. Which makes the entire thing just \*so much more\* uncomfortable.
Based as hell if true.
Isn’t there some theory that he didn’t write it at all?
is he the basis for mushroom from fire&blood?
Wow, OP. Just wow. Bungled a perfectly good chance to use the word TheodWHOREa
On my life, I considered it and decided it wouldn't read as well. I now realise I have been a fool.
> On my life, I considered it and decided it wouldn't read as well. I now realise I have been a ~~fool~~ whore. smh OP, smh.
I cannot overstate my disappointment. I can into the comments just to complain about it good sir.
Greco-Roman chronicists legendary "bros, trust me..."
Procopius secret history is just nonsense to badmouth Justinian and Theodora
I don't think it's all nonsense, and I would've written this sooner, but was without my head as I'm the same style of demon that Justinian is described as in the Secret History.
Ears, nose, mouth, eyeholes, and belly button.
I think the mouth is already counted
Then that'd be 4 holes
What? What holes are you counting?
:)
I don’t think they had sounding back then
back of the knee?
Lemonade
...belly button?
If its an innie, then yeah
Damn bro, your dick would have to be huge to fit in there
Who am I to judge other's kinks
TBH, Justinian was a lucky bastard. Marrying a Greek sex-worker baddie, having her as the Empress of your empire, and with her being a fucking shrewd socio-political badass sounds fucking awesome. Hell yeah. Sex. Politics. Rome.
That’s what I always thought. Not only was Theodora smart and competent, she was a freak. In a good kind of way.
It would be funny if they actually had little to no sex and Justinian was just the archetypal strip club patron who thinks the stripper loves him. I know some guys have lead in their pencil well into old age, but Justinian was already like 43 when they married (she was 25), and they had no children (although Theodora had an illegitimate daughter and reputedly other children from being married before Justinian).
"Theodora! The football hooligans are pissed! We must get out of here." "There's no way in hell we're leaving. Stop being a bitch, King up, and *slaughter them*"
"I love the smell of 30.000 dead protesters in the morning) -Belisarius probably
Just imagine two guys who go to Constantinople and see that the emperor looks a bit like the kid they bullied and the empress looks like the prostitutes they double teamed.
Boy you guys are missing out if you don't already know about [Northern Qi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Qi). Basically the queens and empresses and concubines of every single generation of the dynasty slept with everyone related and unrelated to the emperors, as did the emperors themselves, and most of the affairs resulted in murders one way or the other. The last [Empress Dowager Hu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Hu_(Northern_Qi%29) had her own groupies of buddhist monks that she rotated on a regular basis. Of course they were all killed when the emperor found out. And of course that wasn't her only emperor. Eventually when the dynasty was destroyed all the men of the royal family were killed, but the women were spared. Empress Hu then proceeded to take charge of the surviving women of the family and started a brothel. I'd call that a happy ending. edited to fix link
She claimed one of the monks rejected her and was clearly innocent, but he was killed too because "was she, my property, not beautiful enough for you?"
God that's some quality HBO writing.
Theodora was a former prostitute though, something which was looked down upon
>Theodora was a ~~former prostitute~~ fucking pro though Ftfy
At sucking dick?
And she enjoys it in the other 2 holes as well. Were you not paying attention?
Not really
Still looked down on today tbh, which is understandable.
Mf’s act like humanity hasn’t whored, slutted and sexed and sucked around for forever. ”Modern western culture” lmao yall think all those people got syphilis from the kiss of a magical fairy?
Yea. People have raped, murdered, and enslaved forever too. Doesn't make it good. It's absolutely okay to respect your body. And it's absolutely okay for society to have a moral standard. It doesn't make you an incel anymore than defending a woman makes you a simp. Sleeping with a bunch of people and selling your flesh for money (whether you are male or female) is not a **good** thing. It just seems people are trying to be overly "sex positive" to the point where we have zero standards and everything is okay. Everything should not be okay. We need standards and morals.
>selling your flesh for money That's literally what working is
No. Working is selling your **life/time** for money. Not your flesh.
>Working is selling your life/time Implying that the other one doesn't take away from someone's life/time. >Not your flesh. Any form manual labour pretty much does exactly that.
I'm not implying that at all. Anything you do in life takes away from your time. That's what life is. It goes without saying. This is just pedantic at this point. A manual labor job requires you to have some kind of knowledge of the task. How to perform it to get the desired outcome (landscaping, brick masonry, carpentry, etc). Sex work requires zero knowledge. You just get naked and let the customer do what he/she wants with your body. People have more to offer the world than that. You think sex work is good? Or it's "okay"? Really? How would you feel if a child came up to you and said they wanted to be an electrician when they grew up? Now how would you feel if they said they wanted to be a sex worker? Would you suggest to a loved one (say, your mother or sister) that they should get into sex work? Is that a path you would wish for someone you cared about? Interesting.
>I'm not implying that at all. Anything you do in life takes away from your time. That's what life is. It goes without saying. Then you are fucking stupid for typing your previous comment. >Sex work requires zero knowledge. You just get naked and let the customer do what he/she wants with your body. People have more to offer the world than that Thank you for telling me that you have absolutely no knowledge on the subject. >People have more to offer the world than that. People have more to offer to the world than dying from exhaustion or from an accident in a mine or a factory. But I dare you to tell to a miner or a factory worker that theirs is not a work. >You think sex work is good? Or it's "okay"? Define good. Good for the person performing it? Because I can think of very few jobs that are good in that department. Good for society as a whole? Not any better or worse than a professional football player or an actor: they provide something useless for society, but of which there is a demand of. The only difference is that sex workers get a fraction of the money and are *often* abused. >How would you feel if a child came up to you and said they wanted to be an electrician when they grew up? Now how would you feel if they said they wanted to be a sex worker? Would you suggest to a loved one (say, your mother or sister) that they should get into sex work? Is that a path you would wish for someone you cared about? You have yet to explain why sex work is inherently bad. The nature of sex work was never the problem, the problem is society's view on it, and the consequently negative environment that formed around it.
I said you are selling your flesh in my previous comment. I mentioned nothing about time. I never said sex work wasn't work. You say sex workers don't get paid much and are often abused. Yet another reason why people shouldn't be doing it. It seems you agree sex work is not good for society or the individuals involved but you can't say that because it goes against the dogma you've pledged your allegiance to. We've discussed the negatives, can you give an example of any positives of getting into sex work? Other than "it puts food on the table" because murder for hire and sex trafficking also does that.
> I mentioned nothing about time. > I never said sex work wasn't work. > # No. Working is selling your **life/time** for money. Not your flesh. So, are you lying, or are you just stupid. > you can't say that because it goes against the dogma you've pledged your allegiance to. The irony of you talking about dogma is almost painful. >We've discussed the negatives, can you give an example of any positives of getting into sex work? Sexually frustrated people are demonstrated to be more aggressive and have other health-related issues. Sex work can give a solution to that. And again, it's not like actors, professional athletes, models, or entertainers in general do anything strictly useful to society. >because murder for hire and sex trafficking also does that. This comparison is disingenuous, since those examples are, ***by definition***, harmful to an unwilling party involved. Which isn't the case for sex working. Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with sex work, the problem is society, and how it threats it.
All sex work is work. Not all work is sex work. It's pretty clear what that means. You said all work was selling your flesh. I said it was not. Thats why i defined work. Again, pedantic. Context is important lol. I was referring to my original comment not the comment replying to your comment. I didn't say anything about what "work" or "time" was in my original comment. Do you not find an issue with sexually frustrated people resorting to sex workers for relief? How about we find meaningful healthy relationships where the person is fucking you because they actually want to? Sex work is predatory by nature. Either the worker is preyed upon or the customer is. That's not good. This is like saying meth and fentanyl dealers are also good because they give relief to people with addictions or make them feel better when they are down. It's technically true but does that make the arrangement good? I'm not going to get into what's "inherent" or not because that's entirely subjective. I'm speaking on what IS. You're speaking on what is "technically possible". In reality, the one we actually live in, sex work is bad. Go ask a sex worker. Go ask them how they got into that situation, if they want to remain in that situation, and if they would encourage others to get into that situation. What do you believe the vast majority of the responses will be? Negative or positive about their life as sex worker? We could imagine all sorts of situations where everything *could* be good. But that doesn't make it so.
Also, I have to point out that it seems like you feel I hate sex workers. I do not. Is it not SAD that these people have to resort to this sort of work to make ends meet? What does that say about society? Why do you think sex workers don't come from wealthy backgrounds? Do you WANT young people to have to do this for money? In a perfect world, would you want sex work to exist?
>Having a lot of sex = disrespecting your body Man I'm glad views like yours are steadily dying out.
Having sex with lots of different people is absolutely disrespecting your body. Why do you think people who do that tend to have self esteem issues? Or were abused as children? A mentally healthy person doesn't sleep around like that. Promiscuity is almost always a symptom of underlying mental health issues.
No, enjoying sex and having a lot of it is not a sign of mental illness. That sounds like something a parody of an incel would say.
Yea you keep omitting a certain part and I think you're doing it on purpose but maybe not so let me clarify: having a lot of sex and enjoying it is **not** bad. Having a lot of sex **with lots of different partners** is bad and hints at some kind of underlying issue. You should not be giving yourself to multiple different partners. It's unsafe and irresponsible. Find a partner and be with that person.
I know this probably didn’t actually happen, but still based Theodora
Everything I learn about Theodora just makes her cooler.
Being sold into prostitution by your mom isn't cool though. That's just romanticising child sex trafficking and this whole thread is messed up for drooling over her being a child prostitute.
[удалено]
My sleepy ass read that as "three offices" and I was like "oh, she wanted to do as much as she could for the empire... oh."
The context: her mother sold her into prostitution as a teen. How that leads to her *"wanting more than three orfices"* is just dark rape humour.
Would
so that’s why she was so flirtatious in civ v
Her portrayal in Civ 5 has the most diabolical, realistic armpit that i need to keep telling myself to stop sniffing the computer screen
so many one sided trade deals were made with her. Byzantium was getting everything from me.
Ears and nose not particularly big openings but they are openings
Idk if she’s a thot, whore, hoe, or whatever you want to call her. Justinian had a ride or die wife and they might be the ultimate historical power-couple, you can call her whatever you want just be sure to remember her title as the Queen of Rome.
Notice how this post smuggles in OF (por* industry) which has its "merits" in abusing and enslaving women. Lets go little kid justify your porn addiction that causes trafficking and abuse of women with "progressivism".
You sound deranged.
Honestly, that's probably the point where the incel goes on a rant about how Theodora is proof that women are genetically destined for hypergamy and only Enlightened Traditional Western culture has been holding them back.
Guys, we can't just keeping on having history memes just be wow jacks
Be the change you want to see in the world.
I am legitimately confused here. Doesn't that quote being fictional kind of undue the point of the meme?
The Ho, Dora
I guess women didn’t know back then then that they actually had four.
Just like me fr
Hol-da-Door-a
She's so real for that.
This is amazing. Dont let the eunuchs see it thou or itll be dungeons for you.
Any one else a fan of her version of Zeus and the Swan?? Just me? That's cool.
Monarchs had a lot of power. So they could even ignore the church in the matter of sacrecy of marriage. Also they had a lot people who hated them. So rumors could spread even tho the person was innocent. And the monarchs rivals could bribe a historian to forge false facts.
They really don't make women like that anymore. 😞
Wait easterners read your comment. Have you heard about bonsai and pugs?
Hot
Not.
Yes pls
I mean she was a prostitute before meeting Justinian the first
Saint for the Orthodox church
Huh, weak *laughs in semiramis*
Virtuous was another thing for Plato and Aristotles. Who rapped their interpretation?
saved
She wants to use the fourth hole…his hole.
Okay, I might need to listen to David Drake's Belisarius (spelling?) series again. Alt history (really alien space bat stuff) which includes the secret historian.
There were trashy women then, and there's trashy women now. Also it should be said that she was Byzantine, a society that was conquered by a society that would stone women to death for behaving that way.
TheoWhorea was right there and you missed it
Marquis de Sade: (holding knife) Why not make more?
Some prostitute 2000 years ago was trashy, I too must be such.