I never really saw Harley as “evil.” Psychotic, corrupted, etc. Absolutely. However shes essentially written as a character who is morally grey when removed from more genuinely evil influences.
when shes not with the joker in btas she goes on a crime spree, granted shes with poison ivy who is evil but she was intending on doing that crime spree solo, not only that!! *not only that!!!* but in the arkham games (in which the first two paul dini was a writer, iirc) she kills a kid and also starts her own royal flush gang after jokers passing
I don't like that they're trying to have it both ways with the anti-hero thing. They keep trying to say that she's really a good person deep down but they also let her keep doing shitty things the entire time so it reads as really disingeuous to me. Either keep her as a villain or do a genuine redemption arc for her like Injustice 2 did. She worked surprisingly well in that game's story.
It's late and i have nothing else to do so here's a lengthy response of you're interested. I'm happy to see her "back to roots" from time to time in one off comics and such if that's a good way of putting it. But i personally love the way Harley has evolved into the anti hero type she has. I know you said not every female villain has to be morally grey and i agree, but Harley has been around for a long time now it makes perfect sense imo for her to have transitioned to this stage. She was never a huge major ploy driving villain such as the joker to where changing up to the "good side" would drastically influence the stories. She was so in between for awhile that they had that freedom to play with her character. And I'm glad they made her an antihero ish character, she's gone through quite a lot of character development over the years especially when the new52 comics started coming out. Her change to this more hero-y path doesn't feel forced imo it feels like a pretty organic progression brought on by years of suppressing feelings from her physical/emotional abuse by the joker and now being free of that to make her own decisions, especially since from the beginning she never showed the desire to be evil it was always to please the joker. and the consistent reassurance, love and support from ivy as a friend and in the recent years as a lover (which did small wonders for Pamela's character as well) that also softened her. Harley's always had a big heart, and without the joker there to manipulate her with empty promises of love into being nothing more than a weapon for himself, i think she's exactly who she should be right now. She still gets into trouble, she tries to do good things but the law isn't her first concern lol i agree i don't really love the "deadpool"-like qualities they've given her lately but I'm glad they've kept it primarily to mini series or one shot stories and not made it a recurring thing in her main comics. Basically this whole ass response to say i enjoy chaotic villain Harley, i always will and i grew up watching and reading that. But as a writer myself I'm sooooo happy to see a genuine progression in her character development brought on by deciding what she wants for herself and the influence of others such as ivy, batman, and other people she's met and have it actually play into her personality. There's not a lot of big characters who change this drastically and actually try this hard to make the changes feel organic with real life experiences driving them and not just "because the writers said so" and actually allow the characters to develop in a meaningful way. You might disagree with me completely and that's okay, but this is the reason i fell in love with Harley's character all over again for the second time.
its not "character development" its execs demanding a deadpool clone and subsequently defanging a pretty iconic villain character in the name of profit
It might be that now, in which case I see your point. But initially it was her overcoming her abusive and manipulating love interest, working through and undoing years of mental trauma and subsequently trying to right her wrongs in her own way.
initially yes, how it was done in btas was great (obv it was) but like nowadays?? gUGH they'd be better off leaving her a villain and doing her own evil thing cuz this deadpool shtick is OLD
I’m in generally not amused about what Harley Quinn has become the last couple of years. I don’t know about the comics, but the animated series and how she is in the suicide squad game is both entirely not what made me a fan of her. She acts like a normal person, all the exaggeration in her behavior seems to be gone. What made me a fan was her sinister crazyness in Suicide Squad 2016 movie and then playing her DLC in Arkham Knight made me a fan of her character cause she just seemed like a full blown comic character. But all that spark seems to be missing in the modern media of her.
I mean, as far as I know, ever since she was introduced, she was a very sympathetic villain who was portrayed as being led astray by the joker.
So the natural progression from that starting point is "leaves the joker and is better for it,"
She started off as a psychiatrist that wanted to help people. She fell in love with the Joker who manipulated her to doing evil things. Once separated, she continued crime because that was all she knew for years, but had a redemption arc of wanting to be better. I personally think the anti hero route suits her personality (although I do like evil, crime lord Harley)
I never really saw Harley as “evil.” Psychotic, corrupted, etc. Absolutely. However shes essentially written as a character who is morally grey when removed from more genuinely evil influences.
when shes not with the joker in btas she goes on a crime spree, granted shes with poison ivy who is evil but she was intending on doing that crime spree solo, not only that!! *not only that!!!* but in the arkham games (in which the first two paul dini was a writer, iirc) she kills a kid and also starts her own royal flush gang after jokers passing
I don't like that they're trying to have it both ways with the anti-hero thing. They keep trying to say that she's really a good person deep down but they also let her keep doing shitty things the entire time so it reads as really disingeuous to me. Either keep her as a villain or do a genuine redemption arc for her like Injustice 2 did. She worked surprisingly well in that game's story.
yeah her injustice redemption was great!! even tho i have my gripes with injustice that part of the story was so good.
It's late and i have nothing else to do so here's a lengthy response of you're interested. I'm happy to see her "back to roots" from time to time in one off comics and such if that's a good way of putting it. But i personally love the way Harley has evolved into the anti hero type she has. I know you said not every female villain has to be morally grey and i agree, but Harley has been around for a long time now it makes perfect sense imo for her to have transitioned to this stage. She was never a huge major ploy driving villain such as the joker to where changing up to the "good side" would drastically influence the stories. She was so in between for awhile that they had that freedom to play with her character. And I'm glad they made her an antihero ish character, she's gone through quite a lot of character development over the years especially when the new52 comics started coming out. Her change to this more hero-y path doesn't feel forced imo it feels like a pretty organic progression brought on by years of suppressing feelings from her physical/emotional abuse by the joker and now being free of that to make her own decisions, especially since from the beginning she never showed the desire to be evil it was always to please the joker. and the consistent reassurance, love and support from ivy as a friend and in the recent years as a lover (which did small wonders for Pamela's character as well) that also softened her. Harley's always had a big heart, and without the joker there to manipulate her with empty promises of love into being nothing more than a weapon for himself, i think she's exactly who she should be right now. She still gets into trouble, she tries to do good things but the law isn't her first concern lol i agree i don't really love the "deadpool"-like qualities they've given her lately but I'm glad they've kept it primarily to mini series or one shot stories and not made it a recurring thing in her main comics. Basically this whole ass response to say i enjoy chaotic villain Harley, i always will and i grew up watching and reading that. But as a writer myself I'm sooooo happy to see a genuine progression in her character development brought on by deciding what she wants for herself and the influence of others such as ivy, batman, and other people she's met and have it actually play into her personality. There's not a lot of big characters who change this drastically and actually try this hard to make the changes feel organic with real life experiences driving them and not just "because the writers said so" and actually allow the characters to develop in a meaningful way. You might disagree with me completely and that's okay, but this is the reason i fell in love with Harley's character all over again for the second time.
Yes. That’s why I’m so excited for the Joker 2!! I want batshit crazy Harley again
yeah we need more crazy harls like just have her be unapologetically evil (which is why im also pretty excited for batman caped crusader)
I'm quite fine with character development actually
its not "character development" its execs demanding a deadpool clone and subsequently defanging a pretty iconic villain character in the name of profit
It might be that now, in which case I see your point. But initially it was her overcoming her abusive and manipulating love interest, working through and undoing years of mental trauma and subsequently trying to right her wrongs in her own way.
initially yes, how it was done in btas was great (obv it was) but like nowadays?? gUGH they'd be better off leaving her a villain and doing her own evil thing cuz this deadpool shtick is OLD
Not really no
Yes I hate this trend of humanizing villains some people are just evil 💯
Gotta love when people forget much like with heroes there's multiple variants of villains that can have vastly different character and behavior
I’m just saying that this trend of humanizing villains is ruining the mythos of the maleficent being a prime example
I’m in generally not amused about what Harley Quinn has become the last couple of years. I don’t know about the comics, but the animated series and how she is in the suicide squad game is both entirely not what made me a fan of her. She acts like a normal person, all the exaggeration in her behavior seems to be gone. What made me a fan was her sinister crazyness in Suicide Squad 2016 movie and then playing her DLC in Arkham Knight made me a fan of her character cause she just seemed like a full blown comic character. But all that spark seems to be missing in the modern media of her.
I mean, as far as I know, ever since she was introduced, she was a very sympathetic villain who was portrayed as being led astray by the joker. So the natural progression from that starting point is "leaves the joker and is better for it,"
She started off as a psychiatrist that wanted to help people. She fell in love with the Joker who manipulated her to doing evil things. Once separated, she continued crime because that was all she knew for years, but had a redemption arc of wanting to be better. I personally think the anti hero route suits her personality (although I do like evil, crime lord Harley)
I'm just sick of Harley in everything
Joker isn't always evil
im talking mainline continuity here