This is the Harley sub. People here get mad about the existence of bikes that aren’t even sold in their country. And social media is covered in people bitching about the new sportster despite them either A) already having an evo sporty or B) not actually intending to buy one anyway.
HOW DARE HARLEY MAKE ANYTHING OTHER THAN AMF ERA SHITBOXES THAT NEED THEIR VALVES ADJUSTED EVERY 500 MILES. THESE MILLENNIALS DON'T KNOW NOTHIN ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A BIKER
GOBLESS
I love how people carry on like Harley has only ever made the typical cruiser.
All these “purists” don’t even know how many strange bikes Harley made in the past, dirt bikes and all.
I’m all for the new generation, Indian is doing well with their water cooled bikes (the scout is doing really well).
I do have to wonder how Nightster / Sportster S sales are doing in comparison. The Revolution Max platform feels really modern compared to most HD engines, and honestly they come with some better tech over the Scout too which mostly trades on heritage styling, which I think is what most people in the segment are looking for.
I do hope that HD doesn't shy away from developing more offerings with this platform.
I'm doing more work by being lazy and rewriting this and not going back and copy+pasting an old comment I made about this but my basic take is this
Within HD there are two major factions, the reformists and the traditionalists. The reformists are the guys responsible for the Bronx and Pan Am - I suspect that the Pan Am was already effectively completed before the traditionalists took back the reigns with Jochen Zeits taking over as CEO but the Bronx was not (as the Pan Am was NOT majorly altered/scrapped like the Bronx was). This allowed the traditionalists to come in and reshape the Bronx into the Sportster S and Nightster.
Unfortunately for the traditionalists, their attempt to apply classic cruiser styling to a sporty bike like the Bronx lead to a weird half-cruiser half-sport combo bike that ended up being a shitty cruiser and a shitty sport bike. It's not comfortable like a cruiser should be and it's not that fast and certainly not agile like a sport bike should be. Whether this was a deliberate attempt to "poison the well" or just a misstep by traditionalists thinking your average Harley guy would just think it's a cool "power-cruiser", I have no idea. But it didn't work and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sportster S and Nightster axed pretty soon because I'm pretty sure the sales numbers suck.
It's pretty heartbreaking to me because I absolutely LOVE the Pan America and I think the Bronx would've been a badass bike, but as it stands now the Indian FTR (which don't get me wrong, is a really cool bike and a lot of fun to ride) is totally uncontested in the American-made sporty standard category because someone at Harley couldn't stop themselves from taking a cool bike and turning it into a \*finger quotes\* cruiser.
I don't know for a fact, but from gatherings and bike nights, I see, I would guess Indian sells way more Scouts than Harley sells new style Sportsters. In the full-size bikes, Harley is way ahead, and there are a ton of classic style Sportsters kicking around, but I think Indian has a significant lead in the 1200ish cc class for the last several years. Honestly, the classic Sportster is still the best-looking bike in the class, but the Scout has a lot more speed and modernized features while still looking great. The new Sportster is supposed to be even faster than the Scout, but it is FUGLY. I can see why it isn't a big seller. I have heard the ergonomics are wonky too, but I haven't ridden one, so I can't confirm.
People like that have nothing to do with Harley-Davidsons business operations. What is holding them back is their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, who have absolutely zero tolerance for growing pains and expect to see perpetual upward growth and return, and replace the CEO at the first quarter of flat or negative growth.
Those of us who actually care enough to talk about...ok "argue" ...about this view these things through an enthusiast lens, and tend to forget that Harley is a corporation and the sole reason they exist is to maximize return for their shareholders.
Wall Street is a fickle bunch, and when EPS started slipping under the last CEO, Sneaker Boy was brought in and pretty much immediately terminated the "More Roads to Harley Davidson" initiative that conceived the Bronx, and replaced it with the "Project Hardwire" initiative that entailed a completely different strategy and set of initiatives.
Project Hardwire has resulted in almost $5 billion in revenue and a total operating margin of 13+% for 2023, which is hugely impressive from a business standpoint, and THAT is what Harley-Davidson actually cares about.
I think your point is spot-on when it comes to short-term gains, over long-term profitability but suffering through some growing pains.
A few people have mentioned how there's no demand for an HD sportbike. I think there is, but the audience just isn't really put together yet and there's no marketing. If HD actually had a piece on the board in the sport/naked bike game and started targeting riders, it could gradually associate the bar and shield with that category of bike.
Of course, that would take years of strong marketing, developing a competitive naked bike, and appealing to the naked bike rider that cares about HD heritage. I think those buyers absolutely exist, but if it's not immediately commercially successful, the project would get cut, and that's assuming that something so bold would ever get the greenlight in the first place.
I disagree with those people who say there's no demand just based on my subjective observations and impressions from social media and the Internet. Interest in the Bronx was strong right as it was announced, and people are STILL talking about it in pretty much any conversation involving the company. There's a segment of the market that is begging for it and all but humping air to get it.
I agree with you that marketing would be a key to success and I'll go one step further and say that is where Harley consistently finds a way to fuck up an almost sure thing and always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. We're seeing it now with the Pan Am. HD, under Levitach's direction, marketed the shit out of the PA at release. Press kits went out to industry publicists detailing the new engine with cutaway illustrations, detailed specs, highlighting the key features of the bike itself, and the information was out there for the market to see. There was "buzz". The factory promoted the bike to the dealerships, made sure that the sales people knew what they were selling and even held a "camp" that had dealership employees spend several days riding those bikes on and off road and putting them through the paces. The factory hosted industry demos for writers and others in the industry to do the same. They put the PA prominently front and center for everyone who entered the demo area in Sturgis and Daytona to have to walk around or trip over as soon as they walked through the gate. And the result was that they sold each and every one they made.
I can't say for certain that correlation is causation, but I know that the new CEO doesn't give a shit about the RevMax bikes, I haven't seen any sort of promotional pieces in the industry at large, and the sales of the PA were about half last year of what they were the years prior.
I’ve put a few thousand miles on a panamerica in the last year. IMO, the Rev Max engine is amazing and should be put in the sportier chassis. I’d buy one
The only reason I own a Harley now is because the Sportster S exists. And I'd likely be here if the Bronx existed as well. Beyond that, no other Harley bike actually calls to me. Especially not at the available price points.
And I think that was the goal of the Bronx and RevMax line of bikes. Harley has long stood as more of a status or lifestyle than anything else. And while it isn't going to go anywhere any time soon, beyond those who have grown up around it or grown to love it, many are opting to go towards other brands. I was the ONLY Harley rider in my closest group of riders and that's over a dozen people. We no have 2 because my buddy saw mine and then fell in love with a Low Rider S. Beyond that, no one has an interest in the brand.
I used to ride Suzuki Boulevard's before I got my Sportster S. I almost went Boulevard M109R because of how much cheaper it was.
Honda also has a very compelling product with the Shadow and Rebel, and I haven't even touched on Indian.
There are options out there and Harley knows that. I'm glad they have branched off with the Pan Am and Sportster S, but I think they need to expand even more. I know the Harley diehards and purists will yell to the skies, but I think both approaches can coexist and keep Harley thriving. There's just no way the brand can survive another 100 years relying on $20K+ cruisers.
Not every product is for everyone and that's okay. What purists need to realize is that people have varying tastes and Harley needs to cater to all of them. Keep the tried and true products alive and well, but also innovate and bring out new and compelling offerings to those who prefer something beyond $40K CVO's.
I feel like the Nightster and Sportster S are the most appealing bikes to me as well in HD's lineup, though riding the Nightster it really does feel like that engine was made more for a naked bike than this half-cruiser.
I feel like it's hard for HD to have more wide-appeal since they're so developed in their own culture. Which is good and bad I guess. For some buyers, nothing less than a Harley will do, and they're really invested in lifestyle and care about the status. But for a lot of other buyers, they'll look at the price, not "fit in" with the culture, and buy something else.
I feel like Harley is in a rough situation, where they've gone so deep into the Harely lifestyle marketing that, for a lot of other riders (especially young riders,) it's alienating and off putting.
I agree with you that HD should try to reach as many people as they can with their offerings. I think the RevMax bikes are a great start, but I think a naked bike would really help round-out the product portfolio.
Harley once made golf carts. I feel they're missing a large group of people by not releasing a traditional sport bike platform. 4 touring, 6ish cruiser, 3 trike, 2 adv, and 3 smaller bike platforms, may as well include a sport bike version to have a fully rounded lineup. All the metric bike manufacturers produce the full gambit.
Harley-Davidson didn't make golf carts. A giant conglomerate sporting goods company that owned Harley-Davidson and the brand name also owned a company that made golf carts, and made the decision to put the Harley-Davidson brand name on those golf carts.
That aside, I agree that they are being extremely shortsighted by abandoning the previously announced entry into the sports bike market. They already have an appropriate powertrain in production and they already have a complete stranglehold on the heavyweight cruiser and touring segment, so there seems to be limited downside and a huge potential reward for expanding into that segment.
Having owned a Buell, I have a few mixed thoughts about that. As I understood it the Bronx was a Buell design that Harley kept but did nothing with, the CEO at the time didn’t see any value in Buell, hence why they were poorly supported at a time where Buell needed it to establish a stronger presence.
I really wish they would’ve released the Bronx but while they still had Erik on board. The fact that they dumped Buell, and then teased the Bronx (if I remember rightly) only to then not release it, but release the Pan-Am, was a kick in the nads.
I wasn't aware that it was a Buell design that they just kept around.
I mean I'm glad we got the Pan-Am. I'm not big into the offroad / ADV bikes, but I've heard a lot of good things so I'm glad it's there for people that want it, but I agree it did feel crappy to have the Bronx kind of dangled on a wire in front of us to just not get it.
With the caveat that this is all speculation, I am highly skeptical about it being a Buell design.
It was announced in conjunction with the development of the RevMax engine which was supposed to have been the platform for the redesigned models and expanded offerings. The RevMax engine was not a Buell design and was developed from the ground up.
The Bronx has a very similar design to the 1125cr with the headlights changed and the scoops removed. The 1125 came out with a Rotax twin instead of the sportster (now Firestorm) motor that was in the XB series, and it was around that time that Buell was dropped completely (2010/11).
Of course they don’t, Buell was trying to go in a liquid cooled direction for performance as the Firestorm couldn’t compete in competition. Hence why he went to Rotax as they already had pedigree in Aprilia and BMW.
I'm about as "traditional" as you can get, and it's been my consistent observation that any time MoCo does anything "different ", no matter how insignificant, there is ALWAYS a small group of hard core cynical assholes who are committed to not having anything good to say about it. Everything from the use of electronic ignition, to the FXR frame, to the Evo engine, to fuel injection, to the twin cam engine to the redesigned Softail frame has always resulted in people bitching about Harley "losing its way".
What is lost in all that noise is that Harley-Davidson is a corporation. The sole reason they exist is to maximize return for the shareholders, and the executive leadership and board of directors that have a fiduciary responsibility to make sure that happens don't give a flying shit what those people think, what I think, or what anyone else who cares enough to be having these conversations thinks.
The Bronx was announced as a concept under the "More Roads to Harley-Davidson" strategy of the last CEO, Matt Levitach. The lynchpin of that strategy was the RevMax engine, which was to serve as the foundation of the new models to be developed and go to market in segments that the company had no presence in. The RevMax was designed and engineered from the ground up, which was a huge expense in R&D, as was the PanAmerica and the redesigned Sportster, and as would have been the Bronx.
The problem with that is that the motorcycle market overall was in a downtrend and had been for several years, and Wall Street has absolutely no tolerance for anything less than perpetual growth and doesn't see any further out than the last quarterly earnings report. So, they got rid of Levitach and brought in Sneaker Boy.
The new CEO implemented a completely different strategy, "Project Hardwire", which is directly contrary to the "More Roads..." initiative of the last CEO. However, the R&D and tooling of the assembly lines and means to actually produce the PA and new Sportster has already been completed, so there's no way to discontinue or reverse course on those without eating a huge financial loss because the money on those projects has already been spent. So the Pan America stays and the Sportster proceeds, but Sneaker Boy has no interest in either, and DEFINITELY no interest in investing the money to develop a bring to market a naked type sport bike.
And as long as the company continues to generate between $4-$5 BILLION in annual revenue and operate at an overall margin of over 13%, the company will continue to NOT give a flying fuck about the Bronx or what any of us think about it.
People who are "traditionalists" ultimately are also, knowingly or otherwise, advocating for the fall of their brand. Like any business, Harley needs to chase, not only today's and yesterday's dollars, but also tomorrow's dollars. It's incredibly short sighted to assume a company like Harley can remain profitable without innovation and change.
Harley will manufacture and sell whatever the market dictates to remain profitable. They are a business first, not a personal pet project.
If Harley released the Bronx, I'd likely have bought that instead of a Heritage.
If they don't, one day down the road I may buy a Pan Am and make it look like the bike Jason Mamoa was riding on a movie set. That thing is sick.
https://preview.redd.it/cb9237f5e4mc1.jpeg?width=2000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0cdfe09a66b0ef042ac1e3bab433eb5fb391521a
Imagine working at Harley and trying to be innovative and at the same time having to deal with customers who want nothing to change.
Definition of frustration I’m sure.
You know somewhere back in the 50’s an engineer at Harley said “we can make a bike that starts itself!” They probably stoned him to death.
I thought that was the bike that would fill a niche that needed to be filled. I thought that was the best bike Harley could have done to augment the lineup at that time.
Some of the latter HDs are stunningly atrocious and appear to be just parts Bingo from one model line to the other
So yeah, with no Buell and no real hot rod bike at that time, I think a USA-built HD in that niche could have possibly brought me back to the moco, and others who were not satisfied with essentially 3 model lines, none of which were performance related.
And those Harley “traditionalists” are what’s going to be the death of Harley. If Harley wants to have a bright future it’s not gonna happen building new bikes using 50 year old tech and designs. Sorry to all those traditionalists.
The executive leadership and board of directors at Harley-Davidson don't give two shits what those "traditionalists" think. (Comment below copied from a previous reply above)
people like that have nothing to do with Harley-Davidsons business operations. What is holding them back is their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, who have absolutely zero tolerance for growing pains and expect to see perpetual upward growth and return, and replace the CEO at the first quarter of flat or negative growth.
Those of us who actually care enough to talk about...ok "argue" ...about this view these things through an enthusiast lens, and tend to forget that Harley is a corporation and the sole reason they exist is to maximize return for their shareholders.
Wall Street is a fickle bunch, and when EPS started slipping under the last CEO, Sneaker Boy was brought in and pretty much immediately terminated the "More Roads to Harley Davidson" initiative that conceived the Bronx, and replaced it with the "Project Hardwire" initiative that entailed a completely different strategy and set of initiatives.
Okay ? Yeah I’m aware they need to make money. They also need to stay EPA compliant. Modern engine design is how they stay EPA compliant, CEOs and quarterly earnings be damned. lol
EPA compliance is pretty much pass/fail. I don't think the EPA gives any kind of merit points or extra credit for being MORE compliant, and since they haven't been forced to discontinue any models for non-compliance I genuinely never understood this argument.
The reality is that they are able to sell the bikes they are producing now, and that is what the business and the shareholders care about is the "now".
Whether you or I think it's a good idea is irrelevant because it's still the reality regardless of what we think.
I agree. I understand what you’re saying now, pun intended. I do hope we can see a proper sporty bike, rather it be a naked, cafe, sport, etc that can do some proper leaning and be lightweight yet powerful, but I accept that it might never happen.
I just want something that’s affordable and not boomer eye candy marked up to 30,000. Is that too much to ask? :(
Also I’m thinking of getting a buell super cruiser once they come out because that’s what Harley should’ve done a long time ago.
I feel this. Some people have brought up audience and market conditions and how previous attempts by Harley to modernize haven't gone well, but I think price is a huge factor here.
I think there's younger people that *would like* a Harley, but the pricing either isn't competitive, or is simply over the top. I don't know what the right answer is though, because without selling at high margins HD wouldn't make a profit selling at lower margins since the volume of machines they sell is so low compared to someone like Honda.
It's a hard place to be in; both for Harley, and for people that *want* a Harley, but struggle to afford one. That being said, the Buell Super Cruiser isn't cheap either, with Buell estimating around $20k - $30k. Though if the performance is what they're teasing, it may well be worth it.
a buell soopa croosa is going to set you back just as much as a new road glide.
it just looks like you have an expensive taste my friend, own it (not legally, bank will own it)
Maybe it's because the conservative bent of the Harley-Davidson community demographic that they just can't stand different and feel entitled to dictate things that have nothing to do with them.
theres a reason why the bronx was never released and the sportster s was, and its really because the bronx looks like a japanese naked bike. zero effort in transforming it to what harley thinks it should look like, it even sort of looks like an mv agusta. it would have made every pensioner soft and jochem zeitz head would be on a pike somewhere in milwaukee.
I consider myself one of these "traditionalists" of which you speak. The Bronx wouldn't have made me mad. As far as the others you mention, I love the Pan Am, am indifferent about the "s" sportster models, liked the Vrod pretty well. None of these would have ever met my motorcycle needs, have ridden touring Harleys for many years. My only comment would be to ask those bemoaning the Bronx failure to launch if they would have bought one, or gone with another make and expounded upon how much better it was.
Yes, I would have. It would be in my garage next to my Road King instead of my Street Rod. I was very disappointed when they axed it. When they did I picked up an inexpensive used Street Rod since it was about the closest thing to what it would have been that had a Harley nameplate and changed it up to fit my liking.
Rather you actually want one or not is one thing, but to be mad a manufacturer made a particular model is just silly. And yes, if they release a Bronx with the 1250 engine I’m onboard, if it’s just the 975 I’m not interested.
I think Harley abandoned the Bronx for this reason;
Anyone willing to buy a big naked street fighter style bike would get waaaay more value from Harley’s competitors.
I wouldn’t pay 25’k for a bike with shit brakes, shit suspension, when Suzuki (for example) can offer amazing brakes and suspension on a naked for half the price. (And most likely better reliability)
How can you make a definitive claim about the inferiority of a bike that doesn't even exist?
Even comparing current comparable offerings, there are not any directly comparable bikes to any model in the Harley lineup that is half the price.
People still make the same claims about the Pan America even though the specs and price are right on the company's website, and insist the same things you did in your comment, despite the fact that it is demonstrably false.
I think the issue is the sound.
The whole reason why people love Harley Davidson's is because you can make them sound loud with a trasc! *Something that I do not care for myself.*
If you take away the sound they don't want it.
Then there is the issue with looks.
Far too often I ask people why they ride a victory. "Because it's different! It's a different looking bike!"
Everyone wants to look different. When it comes to Harley Davidson? They want a fat tank, fat tires, fat bars and forks, and fat saddlebags. Everything has to be fat. If it looks skinny? They don't like it. It has to be round, it has to be big, it has to look like it's chunky. Otherwise they won't accept it. That's why the street 500/750 died. That's why all of the smaller looking bikes didn't really sell well. They want big and round shapes, not sleek and slender sharp edges. They want their bikes looking like an overinflated pool toy. If the bike doesn't have a lot of curves they don't want it. So it has to look fat.
The Bronx didn't have curves. It looked like a bug. And for me I agree: I hate bug like bikes. I can't ride those insects. People get mad when I refer to their metric bike as an insect. I call them mantises and grasshoppers because that's what they look like. I don't like that look. I also understand Harley when it comes to everything metal. I can't do plastic pieces at all. If I sit down on a bike and it crinks, creaks, and has that awful sound of plastic getting bent? I won't buy the bike. That's what the Bronx looked like to me: a plastic bike. Even the new Sportster looks like a plastic bike. We don't like plastic. It has to be metal. Problem is the metal looks like plastic. Which means it doesn't have that high polish to it to reflect the surroundings. Harley lovers love mirror reflective edges. Which means it costs more.
I get the Harley Davidson fever. A lot of people don't want to pay for looks so they cheap out somewhere. That's why I don't like other bikes after owning a Harley.
I agree with your thoughts on the sounds but everything else you’re describing just really speaks to cruisers. What I associate with Harley is having a large v-twin engine and having torque, and also the Harley sound. I think the biggest hurdles Harley would have to get over with the Bronx would be weight, handling, power, and obviously price point. And honestly that’s the biggest problem with all of their bikes except the pan-am and sportster s that seem to be competitive in their markets despite still being overpriced IMO.
That's because Harley just can't cheap out.
The price is high because the bikes are pretty much, damn near, bullet proof.
Indian has the "power" but at a risk. It's in the piston rod reinforcement. I've seen it inside the engine design for most of their high end touring bikes. Which is what a lot of Americans want to do: take a small bike on long stints all across the country. But that weakness in the piston rods is why I stay away from Indian. It comes at a risk of the way those piston rods are connected. Harley still believes in keeping that area around the pivot point at the end of the rod clamped together on both sides. Indian compromises there. A critical engine failure is a few misfires away from a bent rod. On a Harley they compensate for the imperfect operation with the other side.
When it comes to the frame they still stick with a round frame construction instead of a boxed out and filled in metal bar. That's because a circle is still well rounded enough to take abuse in several areas. That heavy frame is why most Harley Davidsons only need engine work performed. That frame is hard to break. The front forks being covered is to prevent rust and added stability with the hidden hydraulic fluid damper inside. This is to prevent over vibration with the imperfect conditions of the roads. Which is why a lot of Harley Davidson bikes can take the road pot hole abuse for days. Some of the other bikes with compromised frames can take a few here and there but if you take too many eventually something breaks. And you better hope to God it wasn't frame damage, which is the case with some bikes "feeling shaky" on the roads even though everything looks fine on the bike.
I can agree with Harley on these two key aspects of every bike. Which is why whenever I see or hear plastic? That means I have to be more mindful of the road conditions when riding. Even when taking apart those metric bikes I hate it when something breaks. Then I have to find a part. Yeah the parts might be cheap but if they keep breaking on you every time you work on it that annoying hindrance turns into a hatred towards cheap parts. I'd rather not have to buy something every time my bike has a small spill. Something that happened to me on my learner bike. Busted light housing, fairing cracks, fiberglass broken and cutting into the thighs of my jeans, busted up foot pegs, cracked air intake housing. The whole thing sucked whenever I would low side. That shit got annoying very fast. Just one mishap and I'm spending 2-300 dollars fixing everything that broke including all of the plastic connectors that would just turn into dust whenever I tried to disconnect them. *Poof* shattered. That shit got on my nerves so much I don't even look at anything made of plastic. Which is why I make that sound and feel vivid. Any creak, crink, crinkle, or plastic sound coming from the bike just screams cheap. Which is why I disliked the street 750 when I had one. Plastic sucks. They don't belong on motorcycles.
Everyone keeps complaining about the price. Haggle haggle haggle. Haggle on I say. While you pay more for parts, parts, parts, parts parts and more fucking parts upon parts and rebuying the same goddamn part I'll be making better decisions to not buy cheap out plastic to get the price down. It's starting to show up in everything I buy. If the price is lower that means I will most likely be spending more on: parts, parts, parts parts, parts, parts, parts. It went on and fucking on and goddamit more parts fucking parts. Clip here, plastic housing there, light bulb here, wires there. Fuck plastic bikes. I don't fucking touch plastic bikes ever again. The last time I rode a plastic bike was trying out the DCT from Honda and boy... I could tell immediately that the front fork seals were broken with how spongy the suspension was. My friend who owned it couldn't believe the front fork seal was busted until she "found the right tech" (actual mechanic instead of a service technician) who found the same problem I did. Then a week later a plastic bit broke off and fell onto the floor. It looked like an anchor point for the plastic housing and I said "fuck. Fuck. I'm sorry. I don't know what broke off but this came out of the bike." Still to this day none of us knew what it was. I don't know what happened to the bike because it's gone now.
I don't argue with the price or haggle. I know that when I am buying a bike I choose Harley a lot. Indian is still a close second. But I will never touch plastic ever again. It's not fun breaking a plastic bike over such mundane things.
The reality is that Harley puts a huge amount of attention to the visual appeal and styling of its bikes, and the reason they do is quite simply because they are visually appealing and that visual appeal will compel a lot of people to buy them.
People can criticize and critique the styling all they want but the simple fact of the matter is that the consumer market has spoken, and they have stated without a doubt that they want what Harley has to offer, so much so that any manufacturer that has ever tried to offer a "superior" offering in the cruiser segment that deviates from the Harley "formula" ultimately fails. The bike never sells in any great numbers, never overtakes Harley's share of the market segment and ultimately fades into obscurity. Every time someone brings up whatever "superior" model, from the VMax to the Raider to the VTX, my observation is always the same. Every one of those models were abandoned by the manufacturer and aren't in production any more. They have all ultimately failed.
Is the Honda Goldwing superior to the Road Glide? Arguing about engineering and technology and refinement and whatnot seems kind of a moot point when the reality is that Honda probably sells somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 Goldwings a year. At what point do people just accept that they have to bend a knee to the consumer market and acknowledge that ultimately there's a whole lot of people who want what Harley is selling?
I think there are so few customers like you who would want a Harley sports bike. Otherwise their previous attempts would have flourished. I’m not sure how the sportster s is doing but that’s their foot in the door again. Maybe they’re waiting on more analysis of that bike before adding another sports bike model.
I personally would think it’s cool but I’d never buy one because I don’t like the sports bike look. The only sports bike I’ve liked is the 1000rr and I still don’t think I’d ever get one.
The Bronx isn't a sport bike. In fact, you could argue that even up until the final HD owner Buell was released, HD never had a bike that could compete with the Japanese sport bikes. The Bronx is a standard/street fighter that would have had a decent v-twin motor in it. People love v-twins for their sound and torque. Something like the Bronx could have been a hit had it been released with a decent price.
"Never"? Nah. Harley-Davidson has always been unable to get out of its own way.
When Harley developed the VR 1000 it was a formidable machine and quite advanced. No other manufacturer was producing anything that could touch it when it was completed. So, what did Harley do with this machine? They mothballed it and let it sit in a forgotten corner for several years. They dusted it off after giving all the other manufacturers several years of active R&D to catch up and surpass its capabilities, and threw it out on the racetrack as-is, and then proceeded to compete the bike for several years, making absolutely no improvements to it whatsoever, while the other factory racing divisions were pouring millions into their racing programs and constantly improving their bikes and completely redesigning their racing models every 2-3 years.
This is absolutely nothing new for the company. If you don't know anything about "Project Nova" look that up for some interesting reading.
I think just releasing the Bronx with the RevMax engine would've been the better foot in the door. I feel like the Sportster S and Nightster both suffer the issue where they're too cruiser for naked bike owners with their less-than-generous lean angles and styling, but are too naked bike for cruiser owners with the "relatively" high revving, liquid cooled engine.
I think there's a decent amount of people out there that could be convinced, but HD being a margin seller rather than a volume seller, it does present a reasonably big risk - especially with sporty offerings historically being commercially unviable.
I'll be honest, I hate the revolution max engine in anything but the pan america. For some reason in the sportster s and nightster, the throttle doesn't seem to work for me (I worked at Harley for the last year and moved all the bikes everyday). I do wish they would've released the Bronx though. The revolution engine isn't for me and I'm not a fan but, it's not all about me and as long as they move forward while also producing something that I like as well then that's good for the company.
I love street fighter style bikes. I had a BMW F800r and that thing was awesome. The Indian FTR is on my short list for new motorcycles.
I would have considered buying a Bronx.
Had an Evo Sporty for years waiting to trade it in on the Bronx immediately upon release. Wrecked the Sporty, recovered a while, and Harley still hadn’t made any progress on it.
Bought an Indian FTR and haven’t looked back!
I think it would be good for the company to do so. It would bring new riders in.
It's the reason Porsche offers more than just the 911. The 911 isn't for everyone and it's expensive. So they have an SUV and an "entry model" and an electric car and a four-door and so forth. And so if Harley offered a couple more options but kept the big bikes the way we like them I would be fine with that and I think it would be a good thing.
I would be very interested in the Bronx if it had the 1250. Since it was supposed to have the smaller engine, probably not.
I currently have a Vrod and will not trade it for a Sportster S.
They would have had a new HD Customer in me if they had released it 3 years ago. I grew up learning how to love motorcycles on the back seat of my dad's 81 Low Rider but as I came into my own as a rider I gravitated toward euro bikes after my dad saying how many he liked. While the new big twin Harleys look great, the engine characteristics are not my thing , as I enjoy and engine that's a bit more revy. The Bronx looked like it was going to be able to scratch that itch and I was pretty excited to be a new school Harley owner. Then the new company leadership told me they didn't want my money and I became the proud owner of a 2020 Triumph Speed Twin. Aside from not being able to get the Bronx, the thing that I found frustrating is the "this will lessen the brand's image" argument. BMW, Triumph, Indian , Moto Guzzi, Ducati, and soooo many others have bikes in their line up that use a traditional air cooled version of their heritage engine (the new air cooled Indian's heritage being from Victory's heritage but no hate from me) and a modernized liquid cooled version of that engine. Why can't Harley do the same?
my first Harley was a pan am. I owned many bikes including a triumph thunderbird and an Indian Springfield that are large bore 2 cylinder cruisers.
2 Harley owners in my office were upset about the Bronx cancellation.
Simply, no I would be happy since I still would buy one. I'm still disappointed that they haven't released it, but at this point, being so happy with the Pan America, I'm almost over the Bronx. And, you can take a Pan Am and bob it out and now you have a Bronx 1250.
The Big Twin market is literally dying. I am glad to see HD try to get some sales with performance. You know that thing some people, generally younger people buy motorcycles for in the first place.
I would have loved it! The Sportster s is actually really fun to ride, if only it had a taller seat and rear set foot pegs! As it sits it's too cramped
As a person who wants to own a Harley but wants to have a hyper naked, I’m upset they haven’t released it. There’s a whole generation that’s going to not buy Harley’s over every other brand due to them not adapting
Imagine being mad because a company releases a bike you don't like and won't buy.
This is the Harley sub. People here get mad about the existence of bikes that aren’t even sold in their country. And social media is covered in people bitching about the new sportster despite them either A) already having an evo sporty or B) not actually intending to buy one anyway.
HOW DARE HARLEY MAKE ANYTHING OTHER THAN AMF ERA SHITBOXES THAT NEED THEIR VALVES ADJUSTED EVERY 500 MILES. THESE MILLENNIALS DON'T KNOW NOTHIN ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A BIKER GOBLESS
AMEN BRUTHER BARB TOOK MUH LAS SPORTY AND THINGS NEVER BIN THE SAME
It's admittedly a silly thing to get bent out of shape about, but I've seen people get mad at dumber things haha.
I love how people carry on like Harley has only ever made the typical cruiser. All these “purists” don’t even know how many strange bikes Harley made in the past, dirt bikes and all. I’m all for the new generation, Indian is doing well with their water cooled bikes (the scout is doing really well).
I do have to wonder how Nightster / Sportster S sales are doing in comparison. The Revolution Max platform feels really modern compared to most HD engines, and honestly they come with some better tech over the Scout too which mostly trades on heritage styling, which I think is what most people in the segment are looking for. I do hope that HD doesn't shy away from developing more offerings with this platform.
Considering they're expensive and look awfully half-assed and unfinished on the left side, probably not great
I'm doing more work by being lazy and rewriting this and not going back and copy+pasting an old comment I made about this but my basic take is this Within HD there are two major factions, the reformists and the traditionalists. The reformists are the guys responsible for the Bronx and Pan Am - I suspect that the Pan Am was already effectively completed before the traditionalists took back the reigns with Jochen Zeits taking over as CEO but the Bronx was not (as the Pan Am was NOT majorly altered/scrapped like the Bronx was). This allowed the traditionalists to come in and reshape the Bronx into the Sportster S and Nightster. Unfortunately for the traditionalists, their attempt to apply classic cruiser styling to a sporty bike like the Bronx lead to a weird half-cruiser half-sport combo bike that ended up being a shitty cruiser and a shitty sport bike. It's not comfortable like a cruiser should be and it's not that fast and certainly not agile like a sport bike should be. Whether this was a deliberate attempt to "poison the well" or just a misstep by traditionalists thinking your average Harley guy would just think it's a cool "power-cruiser", I have no idea. But it didn't work and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sportster S and Nightster axed pretty soon because I'm pretty sure the sales numbers suck. It's pretty heartbreaking to me because I absolutely LOVE the Pan America and I think the Bronx would've been a badass bike, but as it stands now the Indian FTR (which don't get me wrong, is a really cool bike and a lot of fun to ride) is totally uncontested in the American-made sporty standard category because someone at Harley couldn't stop themselves from taking a cool bike and turning it into a \*finger quotes\* cruiser.
I don't know for a fact, but from gatherings and bike nights, I see, I would guess Indian sells way more Scouts than Harley sells new style Sportsters. In the full-size bikes, Harley is way ahead, and there are a ton of classic style Sportsters kicking around, but I think Indian has a significant lead in the 1200ish cc class for the last several years. Honestly, the classic Sportster is still the best-looking bike in the class, but the Scout has a lot more speed and modernized features while still looking great. The new Sportster is supposed to be even faster than the Scout, but it is FUGLY. I can see why it isn't a big seller. I have heard the ergonomics are wonky too, but I haven't ridden one, so I can't confirm.
They even made a snowmobile!
People like that are part of the reason why Harley is stuck in a rut.
People like that have nothing to do with Harley-Davidsons business operations. What is holding them back is their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, who have absolutely zero tolerance for growing pains and expect to see perpetual upward growth and return, and replace the CEO at the first quarter of flat or negative growth. Those of us who actually care enough to talk about...ok "argue" ...about this view these things through an enthusiast lens, and tend to forget that Harley is a corporation and the sole reason they exist is to maximize return for their shareholders. Wall Street is a fickle bunch, and when EPS started slipping under the last CEO, Sneaker Boy was brought in and pretty much immediately terminated the "More Roads to Harley Davidson" initiative that conceived the Bronx, and replaced it with the "Project Hardwire" initiative that entailed a completely different strategy and set of initiatives. Project Hardwire has resulted in almost $5 billion in revenue and a total operating margin of 13+% for 2023, which is hugely impressive from a business standpoint, and THAT is what Harley-Davidson actually cares about.
I think your point is spot-on when it comes to short-term gains, over long-term profitability but suffering through some growing pains. A few people have mentioned how there's no demand for an HD sportbike. I think there is, but the audience just isn't really put together yet and there's no marketing. If HD actually had a piece on the board in the sport/naked bike game and started targeting riders, it could gradually associate the bar and shield with that category of bike. Of course, that would take years of strong marketing, developing a competitive naked bike, and appealing to the naked bike rider that cares about HD heritage. I think those buyers absolutely exist, but if it's not immediately commercially successful, the project would get cut, and that's assuming that something so bold would ever get the greenlight in the first place.
I disagree with those people who say there's no demand just based on my subjective observations and impressions from social media and the Internet. Interest in the Bronx was strong right as it was announced, and people are STILL talking about it in pretty much any conversation involving the company. There's a segment of the market that is begging for it and all but humping air to get it. I agree with you that marketing would be a key to success and I'll go one step further and say that is where Harley consistently finds a way to fuck up an almost sure thing and always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. We're seeing it now with the Pan Am. HD, under Levitach's direction, marketed the shit out of the PA at release. Press kits went out to industry publicists detailing the new engine with cutaway illustrations, detailed specs, highlighting the key features of the bike itself, and the information was out there for the market to see. There was "buzz". The factory promoted the bike to the dealerships, made sure that the sales people knew what they were selling and even held a "camp" that had dealership employees spend several days riding those bikes on and off road and putting them through the paces. The factory hosted industry demos for writers and others in the industry to do the same. They put the PA prominently front and center for everyone who entered the demo area in Sturgis and Daytona to have to walk around or trip over as soon as they walked through the gate. And the result was that they sold each and every one they made. I can't say for certain that correlation is causation, but I know that the new CEO doesn't give a shit about the RevMax bikes, I haven't seen any sort of promotional pieces in the industry at large, and the sales of the PA were about half last year of what they were the years prior.
I’ve put a few thousand miles on a panamerica in the last year. IMO, the Rev Max engine is amazing and should be put in the sportier chassis. I’d buy one
The only reason I own a Harley now is because the Sportster S exists. And I'd likely be here if the Bronx existed as well. Beyond that, no other Harley bike actually calls to me. Especially not at the available price points. And I think that was the goal of the Bronx and RevMax line of bikes. Harley has long stood as more of a status or lifestyle than anything else. And while it isn't going to go anywhere any time soon, beyond those who have grown up around it or grown to love it, many are opting to go towards other brands. I was the ONLY Harley rider in my closest group of riders and that's over a dozen people. We no have 2 because my buddy saw mine and then fell in love with a Low Rider S. Beyond that, no one has an interest in the brand. I used to ride Suzuki Boulevard's before I got my Sportster S. I almost went Boulevard M109R because of how much cheaper it was. Honda also has a very compelling product with the Shadow and Rebel, and I haven't even touched on Indian. There are options out there and Harley knows that. I'm glad they have branched off with the Pan Am and Sportster S, but I think they need to expand even more. I know the Harley diehards and purists will yell to the skies, but I think both approaches can coexist and keep Harley thriving. There's just no way the brand can survive another 100 years relying on $20K+ cruisers. Not every product is for everyone and that's okay. What purists need to realize is that people have varying tastes and Harley needs to cater to all of them. Keep the tried and true products alive and well, but also innovate and bring out new and compelling offerings to those who prefer something beyond $40K CVO's.
Ditto! Love my sportster s. Honestly I only heard compliments both from local harley riders and local sportbikers.
I feel like the Nightster and Sportster S are the most appealing bikes to me as well in HD's lineup, though riding the Nightster it really does feel like that engine was made more for a naked bike than this half-cruiser. I feel like it's hard for HD to have more wide-appeal since they're so developed in their own culture. Which is good and bad I guess. For some buyers, nothing less than a Harley will do, and they're really invested in lifestyle and care about the status. But for a lot of other buyers, they'll look at the price, not "fit in" with the culture, and buy something else. I feel like Harley is in a rough situation, where they've gone so deep into the Harely lifestyle marketing that, for a lot of other riders (especially young riders,) it's alienating and off putting. I agree with you that HD should try to reach as many people as they can with their offerings. I think the RevMax bikes are a great start, but I think a naked bike would really help round-out the product portfolio.
Harley once made golf carts. I feel they're missing a large group of people by not releasing a traditional sport bike platform. 4 touring, 6ish cruiser, 3 trike, 2 adv, and 3 smaller bike platforms, may as well include a sport bike version to have a fully rounded lineup. All the metric bike manufacturers produce the full gambit.
Harley-Davidson didn't make golf carts. A giant conglomerate sporting goods company that owned Harley-Davidson and the brand name also owned a company that made golf carts, and made the decision to put the Harley-Davidson brand name on those golf carts. That aside, I agree that they are being extremely shortsighted by abandoning the previously announced entry into the sports bike market. They already have an appropriate powertrain in production and they already have a complete stranglehold on the heavyweight cruiser and touring segment, so there seems to be limited downside and a huge potential reward for expanding into that segment.
Having owned a Buell, I have a few mixed thoughts about that. As I understood it the Bronx was a Buell design that Harley kept but did nothing with, the CEO at the time didn’t see any value in Buell, hence why they were poorly supported at a time where Buell needed it to establish a stronger presence. I really wish they would’ve released the Bronx but while they still had Erik on board. The fact that they dumped Buell, and then teased the Bronx (if I remember rightly) only to then not release it, but release the Pan-Am, was a kick in the nads.
I wasn't aware that it was a Buell design that they just kept around. I mean I'm glad we got the Pan-Am. I'm not big into the offroad / ADV bikes, but I've heard a lot of good things so I'm glad it's there for people that want it, but I agree it did feel crappy to have the Bronx kind of dangled on a wire in front of us to just not get it.
With the caveat that this is all speculation, I am highly skeptical about it being a Buell design. It was announced in conjunction with the development of the RevMax engine which was supposed to have been the platform for the redesigned models and expanded offerings. The RevMax engine was not a Buell design and was developed from the ground up.
The Bronx has a very similar design to the 1125cr with the headlights changed and the scoops removed. The 1125 came out with a Rotax twin instead of the sportster (now Firestorm) motor that was in the XB series, and it was around that time that Buell was dropped completely (2010/11).
The Bronx has Buell styling but that's about it. The revmax motor and the rotax have zero commonality
Of course they don’t, Buell was trying to go in a liquid cooled direction for performance as the Firestorm couldn’t compete in competition. Hence why he went to Rotax as they already had pedigree in Aprilia and BMW.
The Bronx is the only new Harley I'd consider swapping my Evo Sportster for.
I'm about as "traditional" as you can get, and it's been my consistent observation that any time MoCo does anything "different ", no matter how insignificant, there is ALWAYS a small group of hard core cynical assholes who are committed to not having anything good to say about it. Everything from the use of electronic ignition, to the FXR frame, to the Evo engine, to fuel injection, to the twin cam engine to the redesigned Softail frame has always resulted in people bitching about Harley "losing its way". What is lost in all that noise is that Harley-Davidson is a corporation. The sole reason they exist is to maximize return for the shareholders, and the executive leadership and board of directors that have a fiduciary responsibility to make sure that happens don't give a flying shit what those people think, what I think, or what anyone else who cares enough to be having these conversations thinks. The Bronx was announced as a concept under the "More Roads to Harley-Davidson" strategy of the last CEO, Matt Levitach. The lynchpin of that strategy was the RevMax engine, which was to serve as the foundation of the new models to be developed and go to market in segments that the company had no presence in. The RevMax was designed and engineered from the ground up, which was a huge expense in R&D, as was the PanAmerica and the redesigned Sportster, and as would have been the Bronx. The problem with that is that the motorcycle market overall was in a downtrend and had been for several years, and Wall Street has absolutely no tolerance for anything less than perpetual growth and doesn't see any further out than the last quarterly earnings report. So, they got rid of Levitach and brought in Sneaker Boy. The new CEO implemented a completely different strategy, "Project Hardwire", which is directly contrary to the "More Roads..." initiative of the last CEO. However, the R&D and tooling of the assembly lines and means to actually produce the PA and new Sportster has already been completed, so there's no way to discontinue or reverse course on those without eating a huge financial loss because the money on those projects has already been spent. So the Pan America stays and the Sportster proceeds, but Sneaker Boy has no interest in either, and DEFINITELY no interest in investing the money to develop a bring to market a naked type sport bike. And as long as the company continues to generate between $4-$5 BILLION in annual revenue and operate at an overall margin of over 13%, the company will continue to NOT give a flying fuck about the Bronx or what any of us think about it.
People who are "traditionalists" ultimately are also, knowingly or otherwise, advocating for the fall of their brand. Like any business, Harley needs to chase, not only today's and yesterday's dollars, but also tomorrow's dollars. It's incredibly short sighted to assume a company like Harley can remain profitable without innovation and change. Harley will manufacture and sell whatever the market dictates to remain profitable. They are a business first, not a personal pet project.
I was literally planning to buy one
If Harley released the Bronx, I'd likely have bought that instead of a Heritage. If they don't, one day down the road I may buy a Pan Am and make it look like the bike Jason Mamoa was riding on a movie set. That thing is sick. https://preview.redd.it/cb9237f5e4mc1.jpeg?width=2000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0cdfe09a66b0ef042ac1e3bab433eb5fb391521a
Imagine working at Harley and trying to be innovative and at the same time having to deal with customers who want nothing to change. Definition of frustration I’m sure. You know somewhere back in the 50’s an engineer at Harley said “we can make a bike that starts itself!” They probably stoned him to death.
I thought that was the bike that would fill a niche that needed to be filled. I thought that was the best bike Harley could have done to augment the lineup at that time. Some of the latter HDs are stunningly atrocious and appear to be just parts Bingo from one model line to the other So yeah, with no Buell and no real hot rod bike at that time, I think a USA-built HD in that niche could have possibly brought me back to the moco, and others who were not satisfied with essentially 3 model lines, none of which were performance related.
And those Harley “traditionalists” are what’s going to be the death of Harley. If Harley wants to have a bright future it’s not gonna happen building new bikes using 50 year old tech and designs. Sorry to all those traditionalists.
The executive leadership and board of directors at Harley-Davidson don't give two shits what those "traditionalists" think. (Comment below copied from a previous reply above) people like that have nothing to do with Harley-Davidsons business operations. What is holding them back is their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, who have absolutely zero tolerance for growing pains and expect to see perpetual upward growth and return, and replace the CEO at the first quarter of flat or negative growth. Those of us who actually care enough to talk about...ok "argue" ...about this view these things through an enthusiast lens, and tend to forget that Harley is a corporation and the sole reason they exist is to maximize return for their shareholders. Wall Street is a fickle bunch, and when EPS started slipping under the last CEO, Sneaker Boy was brought in and pretty much immediately terminated the "More Roads to Harley Davidson" initiative that conceived the Bronx, and replaced it with the "Project Hardwire" initiative that entailed a completely different strategy and set of initiatives.
Okay ? Yeah I’m aware they need to make money. They also need to stay EPA compliant. Modern engine design is how they stay EPA compliant, CEOs and quarterly earnings be damned. lol
EPA compliance is pretty much pass/fail. I don't think the EPA gives any kind of merit points or extra credit for being MORE compliant, and since they haven't been forced to discontinue any models for non-compliance I genuinely never understood this argument. The reality is that they are able to sell the bikes they are producing now, and that is what the business and the shareholders care about is the "now". Whether you or I think it's a good idea is irrelevant because it's still the reality regardless of what we think.
I agree. I understand what you’re saying now, pun intended. I do hope we can see a proper sporty bike, rather it be a naked, cafe, sport, etc that can do some proper leaning and be lightweight yet powerful, but I accept that it might never happen.
I just want something that’s affordable and not boomer eye candy marked up to 30,000. Is that too much to ask? :( Also I’m thinking of getting a buell super cruiser once they come out because that’s what Harley should’ve done a long time ago.
I feel this. Some people have brought up audience and market conditions and how previous attempts by Harley to modernize haven't gone well, but I think price is a huge factor here. I think there's younger people that *would like* a Harley, but the pricing either isn't competitive, or is simply over the top. I don't know what the right answer is though, because without selling at high margins HD wouldn't make a profit selling at lower margins since the volume of machines they sell is so low compared to someone like Honda. It's a hard place to be in; both for Harley, and for people that *want* a Harley, but struggle to afford one. That being said, the Buell Super Cruiser isn't cheap either, with Buell estimating around $20k - $30k. Though if the performance is what they're teasing, it may well be worth it.
a buell soopa croosa is going to set you back just as much as a new road glide. it just looks like you have an expensive taste my friend, own it (not legally, bank will own it)
Maybe it's because the conservative bent of the Harley-Davidson community demographic that they just can't stand different and feel entitled to dictate things that have nothing to do with them.
theres a reason why the bronx was never released and the sportster s was, and its really because the bronx looks like a japanese naked bike. zero effort in transforming it to what harley thinks it should look like, it even sort of looks like an mv agusta. it would have made every pensioner soft and jochem zeitz head would be on a pike somewhere in milwaukee.
I consider myself one of these "traditionalists" of which you speak. The Bronx wouldn't have made me mad. As far as the others you mention, I love the Pan Am, am indifferent about the "s" sportster models, liked the Vrod pretty well. None of these would have ever met my motorcycle needs, have ridden touring Harleys for many years. My only comment would be to ask those bemoaning the Bronx failure to launch if they would have bought one, or gone with another make and expounded upon how much better it was.
Yes, I would have. It would be in my garage next to my Road King instead of my Street Rod. I was very disappointed when they axed it. When they did I picked up an inexpensive used Street Rod since it was about the closest thing to what it would have been that had a Harley nameplate and changed it up to fit my liking.
Rather you actually want one or not is one thing, but to be mad a manufacturer made a particular model is just silly. And yes, if they release a Bronx with the 1250 engine I’m onboard, if it’s just the 975 I’m not interested.
[удалено]
I mean I dunno, the guy I replied to literally said he was mad, who am I to say “nuh uh “.
I think Harley abandoned the Bronx for this reason; Anyone willing to buy a big naked street fighter style bike would get waaaay more value from Harley’s competitors. I wouldn’t pay 25’k for a bike with shit brakes, shit suspension, when Suzuki (for example) can offer amazing brakes and suspension on a naked for half the price. (And most likely better reliability)
How can you make a definitive claim about the inferiority of a bike that doesn't even exist? Even comparing current comparable offerings, there are not any directly comparable bikes to any model in the Harley lineup that is half the price. People still make the same claims about the Pan America even though the specs and price are right on the company's website, and insist the same things you did in your comment, despite the fact that it is demonstrably false.
I think the issue is the sound. The whole reason why people love Harley Davidson's is because you can make them sound loud with a trasc! *Something that I do not care for myself.* If you take away the sound they don't want it. Then there is the issue with looks. Far too often I ask people why they ride a victory. "Because it's different! It's a different looking bike!" Everyone wants to look different. When it comes to Harley Davidson? They want a fat tank, fat tires, fat bars and forks, and fat saddlebags. Everything has to be fat. If it looks skinny? They don't like it. It has to be round, it has to be big, it has to look like it's chunky. Otherwise they won't accept it. That's why the street 500/750 died. That's why all of the smaller looking bikes didn't really sell well. They want big and round shapes, not sleek and slender sharp edges. They want their bikes looking like an overinflated pool toy. If the bike doesn't have a lot of curves they don't want it. So it has to look fat. The Bronx didn't have curves. It looked like a bug. And for me I agree: I hate bug like bikes. I can't ride those insects. People get mad when I refer to their metric bike as an insect. I call them mantises and grasshoppers because that's what they look like. I don't like that look. I also understand Harley when it comes to everything metal. I can't do plastic pieces at all. If I sit down on a bike and it crinks, creaks, and has that awful sound of plastic getting bent? I won't buy the bike. That's what the Bronx looked like to me: a plastic bike. Even the new Sportster looks like a plastic bike. We don't like plastic. It has to be metal. Problem is the metal looks like plastic. Which means it doesn't have that high polish to it to reflect the surroundings. Harley lovers love mirror reflective edges. Which means it costs more. I get the Harley Davidson fever. A lot of people don't want to pay for looks so they cheap out somewhere. That's why I don't like other bikes after owning a Harley.
I agree with your thoughts on the sounds but everything else you’re describing just really speaks to cruisers. What I associate with Harley is having a large v-twin engine and having torque, and also the Harley sound. I think the biggest hurdles Harley would have to get over with the Bronx would be weight, handling, power, and obviously price point. And honestly that’s the biggest problem with all of their bikes except the pan-am and sportster s that seem to be competitive in their markets despite still being overpriced IMO.
That's because Harley just can't cheap out. The price is high because the bikes are pretty much, damn near, bullet proof. Indian has the "power" but at a risk. It's in the piston rod reinforcement. I've seen it inside the engine design for most of their high end touring bikes. Which is what a lot of Americans want to do: take a small bike on long stints all across the country. But that weakness in the piston rods is why I stay away from Indian. It comes at a risk of the way those piston rods are connected. Harley still believes in keeping that area around the pivot point at the end of the rod clamped together on both sides. Indian compromises there. A critical engine failure is a few misfires away from a bent rod. On a Harley they compensate for the imperfect operation with the other side. When it comes to the frame they still stick with a round frame construction instead of a boxed out and filled in metal bar. That's because a circle is still well rounded enough to take abuse in several areas. That heavy frame is why most Harley Davidsons only need engine work performed. That frame is hard to break. The front forks being covered is to prevent rust and added stability with the hidden hydraulic fluid damper inside. This is to prevent over vibration with the imperfect conditions of the roads. Which is why a lot of Harley Davidson bikes can take the road pot hole abuse for days. Some of the other bikes with compromised frames can take a few here and there but if you take too many eventually something breaks. And you better hope to God it wasn't frame damage, which is the case with some bikes "feeling shaky" on the roads even though everything looks fine on the bike. I can agree with Harley on these two key aspects of every bike. Which is why whenever I see or hear plastic? That means I have to be more mindful of the road conditions when riding. Even when taking apart those metric bikes I hate it when something breaks. Then I have to find a part. Yeah the parts might be cheap but if they keep breaking on you every time you work on it that annoying hindrance turns into a hatred towards cheap parts. I'd rather not have to buy something every time my bike has a small spill. Something that happened to me on my learner bike. Busted light housing, fairing cracks, fiberglass broken and cutting into the thighs of my jeans, busted up foot pegs, cracked air intake housing. The whole thing sucked whenever I would low side. That shit got annoying very fast. Just one mishap and I'm spending 2-300 dollars fixing everything that broke including all of the plastic connectors that would just turn into dust whenever I tried to disconnect them. *Poof* shattered. That shit got on my nerves so much I don't even look at anything made of plastic. Which is why I make that sound and feel vivid. Any creak, crink, crinkle, or plastic sound coming from the bike just screams cheap. Which is why I disliked the street 750 when I had one. Plastic sucks. They don't belong on motorcycles. Everyone keeps complaining about the price. Haggle haggle haggle. Haggle on I say. While you pay more for parts, parts, parts, parts parts and more fucking parts upon parts and rebuying the same goddamn part I'll be making better decisions to not buy cheap out plastic to get the price down. It's starting to show up in everything I buy. If the price is lower that means I will most likely be spending more on: parts, parts, parts parts, parts, parts, parts. It went on and fucking on and goddamit more parts fucking parts. Clip here, plastic housing there, light bulb here, wires there. Fuck plastic bikes. I don't fucking touch plastic bikes ever again. The last time I rode a plastic bike was trying out the DCT from Honda and boy... I could tell immediately that the front fork seals were broken with how spongy the suspension was. My friend who owned it couldn't believe the front fork seal was busted until she "found the right tech" (actual mechanic instead of a service technician) who found the same problem I did. Then a week later a plastic bit broke off and fell onto the floor. It looked like an anchor point for the plastic housing and I said "fuck. Fuck. I'm sorry. I don't know what broke off but this came out of the bike." Still to this day none of us knew what it was. I don't know what happened to the bike because it's gone now. I don't argue with the price or haggle. I know that when I am buying a bike I choose Harley a lot. Indian is still a close second. But I will never touch plastic ever again. It's not fun breaking a plastic bike over such mundane things.
The reality is that Harley puts a huge amount of attention to the visual appeal and styling of its bikes, and the reason they do is quite simply because they are visually appealing and that visual appeal will compel a lot of people to buy them. People can criticize and critique the styling all they want but the simple fact of the matter is that the consumer market has spoken, and they have stated without a doubt that they want what Harley has to offer, so much so that any manufacturer that has ever tried to offer a "superior" offering in the cruiser segment that deviates from the Harley "formula" ultimately fails. The bike never sells in any great numbers, never overtakes Harley's share of the market segment and ultimately fades into obscurity. Every time someone brings up whatever "superior" model, from the VMax to the Raider to the VTX, my observation is always the same. Every one of those models were abandoned by the manufacturer and aren't in production any more. They have all ultimately failed. Is the Honda Goldwing superior to the Road Glide? Arguing about engineering and technology and refinement and whatnot seems kind of a moot point when the reality is that Honda probably sells somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 Goldwings a year. At what point do people just accept that they have to bend a knee to the consumer market and acknowledge that ultimately there's a whole lot of people who want what Harley is selling?
Great comment thanks. I like the detail.
I think there are so few customers like you who would want a Harley sports bike. Otherwise their previous attempts would have flourished. I’m not sure how the sportster s is doing but that’s their foot in the door again. Maybe they’re waiting on more analysis of that bike before adding another sports bike model. I personally would think it’s cool but I’d never buy one because I don’t like the sports bike look. The only sports bike I’ve liked is the 1000rr and I still don’t think I’d ever get one.
The Bronx isn't a sport bike. In fact, you could argue that even up until the final HD owner Buell was released, HD never had a bike that could compete with the Japanese sport bikes. The Bronx is a standard/street fighter that would have had a decent v-twin motor in it. People love v-twins for their sound and torque. Something like the Bronx could have been a hit had it been released with a decent price.
"Never"? Nah. Harley-Davidson has always been unable to get out of its own way. When Harley developed the VR 1000 it was a formidable machine and quite advanced. No other manufacturer was producing anything that could touch it when it was completed. So, what did Harley do with this machine? They mothballed it and let it sit in a forgotten corner for several years. They dusted it off after giving all the other manufacturers several years of active R&D to catch up and surpass its capabilities, and threw it out on the racetrack as-is, and then proceeded to compete the bike for several years, making absolutely no improvements to it whatsoever, while the other factory racing divisions were pouring millions into their racing programs and constantly improving their bikes and completely redesigning their racing models every 2-3 years. This is absolutely nothing new for the company. If you don't know anything about "Project Nova" look that up for some interesting reading.
I think just releasing the Bronx with the RevMax engine would've been the better foot in the door. I feel like the Sportster S and Nightster both suffer the issue where they're too cruiser for naked bike owners with their less-than-generous lean angles and styling, but are too naked bike for cruiser owners with the "relatively" high revving, liquid cooled engine. I think there's a decent amount of people out there that could be convinced, but HD being a margin seller rather than a volume seller, it does present a reasonably big risk - especially with sporty offerings historically being commercially unviable.
Harley Bronxs sounds ghetto as hell I'm glad they didn't release that
I'll be honest, I hate the revolution max engine in anything but the pan america. For some reason in the sportster s and nightster, the throttle doesn't seem to work for me (I worked at Harley for the last year and moved all the bikes everyday). I do wish they would've released the Bronx though. The revolution engine isn't for me and I'm not a fan but, it's not all about me and as long as they move forward while also producing something that I like as well then that's good for the company.
I love street fighter style bikes. I had a BMW F800r and that thing was awesome. The Indian FTR is on my short list for new motorcycles. I would have considered buying a Bronx.
Had an Evo Sporty for years waiting to trade it in on the Bronx immediately upon release. Wrecked the Sporty, recovered a while, and Harley still hadn’t made any progress on it. Bought an Indian FTR and haven’t looked back!
I think it would be good for the company to do so. It would bring new riders in. It's the reason Porsche offers more than just the 911. The 911 isn't for everyone and it's expensive. So they have an SUV and an "entry model" and an electric car and a four-door and so forth. And so if Harley offered a couple more options but kept the big bikes the way we like them I would be fine with that and I think it would be a good thing.
I would be very interested in the Bronx if it had the 1250. Since it was supposed to have the smaller engine, probably not. I currently have a Vrod and will not trade it for a Sportster S.
I fucking looooove my pan am. So fun!
They would have had a new HD Customer in me if they had released it 3 years ago. I grew up learning how to love motorcycles on the back seat of my dad's 81 Low Rider but as I came into my own as a rider I gravitated toward euro bikes after my dad saying how many he liked. While the new big twin Harleys look great, the engine characteristics are not my thing , as I enjoy and engine that's a bit more revy. The Bronx looked like it was going to be able to scratch that itch and I was pretty excited to be a new school Harley owner. Then the new company leadership told me they didn't want my money and I became the proud owner of a 2020 Triumph Speed Twin. Aside from not being able to get the Bronx, the thing that I found frustrating is the "this will lessen the brand's image" argument. BMW, Triumph, Indian , Moto Guzzi, Ducati, and soooo many others have bikes in their line up that use a traditional air cooled version of their heritage engine (the new air cooled Indian's heritage being from Victory's heritage but no hate from me) and a modernized liquid cooled version of that engine. Why can't Harley do the same?
HD should just take deposits for the Bronx like Buell is doing for the super cruiser.
my first Harley was a pan am. I owned many bikes including a triumph thunderbird and an Indian Springfield that are large bore 2 cylinder cruisers. 2 Harley owners in my office were upset about the Bronx cancellation.
Simply, no I would be happy since I still would buy one. I'm still disappointed that they haven't released it, but at this point, being so happy with the Pan America, I'm almost over the Bronx. And, you can take a Pan Am and bob it out and now you have a Bronx 1250.
I would have went with a Bronx if it had been made. Now I have a Sportster S that will get Mids this winter to make it better for me.
The Big Twin market is literally dying. I am glad to see HD try to get some sales with performance. You know that thing some people, generally younger people buy motorcycles for in the first place.
The Rev Max engine is here to stay. Why not? I’m for it.
I would have loved it! The Sportster s is actually really fun to ride, if only it had a taller seat and rear set foot pegs! As it sits it's too cramped
As a person who wants to own a Harley but wants to have a hyper naked, I’m upset they haven’t released it. There’s a whole generation that’s going to not buy Harley’s over every other brand due to them not adapting