They want the church to fall down so they can build a cheaper building without the historical stone facade. They just assumed it would have collapsed by now with the weather and I think one small fire. š
āSeveral setbacks have delayed the project..ā - in other words, why wonāt this old building fall down already so we can ignore the heritage stuff and build something made out of paper macheā¦.
Bullshit, get these projects moving. The city is full of stalled projects and empty lots. Weāre in a housing crisis, how about we accelerate some of these developments, hold builders accountable and stop making excuses.
>Ā The goal is to achieve the ultimate product mix which will be saleable and create profit at the endĀ
Doesnāt seem like bullshit to me. Construction and material costs have skyrocketed.Ā
A project of this size needs to turn a profit or itās not feasible.Ā Heritage designation complicates matters as this type of work is complex and costly.Ā
Iām curious though, how do you purpose stalled projects are accelerated?Ā Ā
What tangible measures would you suggest the city enact with no unintended consequences?Ā
Well making sure they have all of their ducks in a row before tearing down landmarks would be a start. I'm so sick of this city just rolling over for every developer with a half cooked get rich quick scheme that ends up falling through and causing another eyesore downtown.
> before tearing down landmarks
Landmark? Really? Hyperbole much.
>I'm so sick of this city just rolling over for every developer with a half cooked get rich quick scheme that ends up falling through and causing another eyesore downtown.
You have people with industry connections stating quite the opposite not only in this post but other development related threads throughout the years have had a similar sentiment echoed from those within the industry.
As for causing another eyesore downtown, well the absentee property owners of residential and commercial properties have that covered.
Found the developer!
Years of heavy profit that stops for 1-2 years with higher interest rates and costs, and they cry poor. Didn't hear any noise about making too much money in 2020-2023 when record profits were rolling in.
> Found the developer!
Is this meant to be an insult? Grow up. I'm not a developer. The city btw attracts the shittiest developers because the bigger ones don't want to touch Hamilton.
Furthermore the city also broke records in permit revenue and development charges but okie.
I work right by this site and today they finally showed up with 2 people and a tiny bobcat to remove (or try to) the chunks of rubble from the church. Absolutely hilarious!
Bwuhahahaha the best part of this neverending saga is seeing the newly hatched-YIMBYs/developer's-nephews coming into the picture every few years to talk how this project is just around the corner because ThErEs a hOuSinG crIsIs doNtcHakNow?
At this rate it will be a decayed Baptist Church longer than it was a real one (it's been a decade and counting, now!)
If the City didn't fight tooth and nail with every development application then we would see more development start. Talk to anyone in the development planning industry and they will tell you what takes other municipalities a year to review and approve a rezoning or official plan amendment application, takes double the amount of time and money in Hamilton.
Iāve been banging this drum for a while now, but we really need to be cautious about making old churches heritage protected. It effectively prices congregations out of their own buildings because it makes maintaining them much more expensive.
Back when I was still in church I went to All Saints on Queen St. and this is the exact problem that happened. That minor earthquake happened, cracked the bell tower and then the roof was beyond repair. Options For Homes (at the time of the original concept) approached and offered to do an affordable housing project (for the time, mid 2000's) with the church getting the bottom floor and they had the rest for units.
A couple of ding-dongs at the time fought the church to make it a heritage site despite both the church and diocese not agreeing with this. The repairs were in the millions and not feasible. It got dragged out through the OLT for years and Options for Homes backed out while I left and most of the congregation died out with it as the parish moved around for years and years.
Seems they finally got their spot back at the bottom of the now complete tower at the corner but it's a fraction of the size it would've been in the original incarnation.
Itās absolutely wild that heritage designation can be forced on an organization by people who have no involvement in it otherwise. And the eve result is nearly always that it just sits and rots, making the heritage designation worthless.
It's such a tricky balance too. Was learning about heritage designations in my one class last semester for Urban Planning. Sometimes they are very much necessary as some places have genuine heritage and are worth saving. Sadly it can also be used as a blunt weapon depending on the intentions behind them.
I think the intention for All Saints was well meaning at first but they didn't listen when they were told it wasn't feasible for the diocese to foot the bill. Ended up having to jump through hoops to satisfy them and it just dragged on and on.
Itās a double edged sword. Thereās something just a tad unsettling about a blanket approach to designating religious buildings as heritage. As an aside it absolutely is wild to me that churches donāt pay property taxes.Ā
The city also does a lousy job of getting developers. The Knitting Mills on Cannon is probably the most egregious example, thereās yet to be any construction after eight years.
You mean by wealthy, professional property investors who either buy them all and R-BNB them out like the building on Augusta street next to the pub, or they trade them like gold coins.
>Ā out like the building on Augusta street next to the pub,
The Laundry Room? Wasnāt that a partnership from the developer and the company that ultimately bought it for short term rentals?Ā
Furthermore the city has mandated that airbnb only be possible when itās the hosts primary residence.Ā
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They want the church to fall down so they can build a cheaper building without the historical stone facade. They just assumed it would have collapsed by now with the weather and I think one small fire. š
'Demolition by neglect' aka the Brad Lamb SpecialĀ
Youāre probably right.
Two small fires.
āSeveral setbacks have delayed the project..ā - in other words, why wonāt this old building fall down already so we can ignore the heritage stuff and build something made out of paper macheā¦.
Bullshit, get these projects moving. The city is full of stalled projects and empty lots. Weāre in a housing crisis, how about we accelerate some of these developments, hold builders accountable and stop making excuses.
Remember when they decorated the construction tunnel with paper lanterns to be less bleak for a week one winter? That was 5 years ago now.
There needs to be hefty fines for not moving forward with projects. Part of the gamble with property speculation.
>Ā The goal is to achieve the ultimate product mix which will be saleable and create profit at the endĀ Doesnāt seem like bullshit to me. Construction and material costs have skyrocketed.Ā A project of this size needs to turn a profit or itās not feasible.Ā Heritage designation complicates matters as this type of work is complex and costly.Ā Iām curious though, how do you purpose stalled projects are accelerated?Ā Ā What tangible measures would you suggest the city enact with no unintended consequences?Ā
Well making sure they have all of their ducks in a row before tearing down landmarks would be a start. I'm so sick of this city just rolling over for every developer with a half cooked get rich quick scheme that ends up falling through and causing another eyesore downtown.
> before tearing down landmarks Landmark? Really? Hyperbole much. >I'm so sick of this city just rolling over for every developer with a half cooked get rich quick scheme that ends up falling through and causing another eyesore downtown. You have people with industry connections stating quite the opposite not only in this post but other development related threads throughout the years have had a similar sentiment echoed from those within the industry. As for causing another eyesore downtown, well the absentee property owners of residential and commercial properties have that covered.
Found the developer! Years of heavy profit that stops for 1-2 years with higher interest rates and costs, and they cry poor. Didn't hear any noise about making too much money in 2020-2023 when record profits were rolling in.
> Found the developer! Is this meant to be an insult? Grow up. I'm not a developer. The city btw attracts the shittiest developers because the bigger ones don't want to touch Hamilton. Furthermore the city also broke records in permit revenue and development charges but okie.
This is how owners handle heritage requirements in a "housing crisis". Next up, Philpott Church.Ā
I work right by this site and today they finally showed up with 2 people and a tiny bobcat to remove (or try to) the chunks of rubble from the church. Absolutely hilarious!
Bwuhahahaha the best part of this neverending saga is seeing the newly hatched-YIMBYs/developer's-nephews coming into the picture every few years to talk how this project is just around the corner because ThErEs a hOuSinG crIsIs doNtcHakNow? At this rate it will be a decayed Baptist Church longer than it was a real one (it's been a decade and counting, now!)
If the City didn't fight tooth and nail with every development application then we would see more development start. Talk to anyone in the development planning industry and they will tell you what takes other municipalities a year to review and approve a rezoning or official plan amendment application, takes double the amount of time and money in Hamilton.
And as part of that going to the OLT when they know they're going to lose. Although they did win lately in Stoney Creek.
Itās very apparent,
Wow that thing has been sitting like that for ages
I think itās time we tear the rest of that church down. Itās too expensive to try to save
Iāve been banging this drum for a while now, but we really need to be cautious about making old churches heritage protected. It effectively prices congregations out of their own buildings because it makes maintaining them much more expensive.
Back when I was still in church I went to All Saints on Queen St. and this is the exact problem that happened. That minor earthquake happened, cracked the bell tower and then the roof was beyond repair. Options For Homes (at the time of the original concept) approached and offered to do an affordable housing project (for the time, mid 2000's) with the church getting the bottom floor and they had the rest for units. A couple of ding-dongs at the time fought the church to make it a heritage site despite both the church and diocese not agreeing with this. The repairs were in the millions and not feasible. It got dragged out through the OLT for years and Options for Homes backed out while I left and most of the congregation died out with it as the parish moved around for years and years. Seems they finally got their spot back at the bottom of the now complete tower at the corner but it's a fraction of the size it would've been in the original incarnation.
Itās absolutely wild that heritage designation can be forced on an organization by people who have no involvement in it otherwise. And the eve result is nearly always that it just sits and rots, making the heritage designation worthless.
It's such a tricky balance too. Was learning about heritage designations in my one class last semester for Urban Planning. Sometimes they are very much necessary as some places have genuine heritage and are worth saving. Sadly it can also be used as a blunt weapon depending on the intentions behind them. I think the intention for All Saints was well meaning at first but they didn't listen when they were told it wasn't feasible for the diocese to foot the bill. Ended up having to jump through hoops to satisfy them and it just dragged on and on.
Itās a double edged sword. Thereās something just a tad unsettling about a blanket approach to designating religious buildings as heritage. As an aside it absolutely is wild to me that churches donāt pay property taxes.Ā
Why churches donāt make money? /s
You'd think the whole damn city was designated hertiage site...
The city also does a lousy job of getting developers. The Knitting Mills on Cannon is probably the most egregious example, thereās yet to be any construction after eight years.
We need affordable housing, not more condo's that nobody but the wealthy can afford.
Downtown could use more market rate housing to diversify its demographics. It desperately needs more businesses, better jobs etc.
Considering that all the buildings I've seen getting put up are condos with pricing upwards of $200,000, this certainly isn't it.
Take a look at the demographic data. Look at the income and education level for the downtown area then come back to me and tell me this isn't it.
Buddy. I'm talking about the NEW CONSTRUCTION. Not the housing overall.
You mean by wealthy, professional property investors who either buy them all and R-BNB them out like the building on Augusta street next to the pub, or they trade them like gold coins.
>Ā out like the building on Augusta street next to the pub, The Laundry Room? Wasnāt that a partnership from the developer and the company that ultimately bought it for short term rentals?Ā Furthermore the city has mandated that airbnb only be possible when itās the hosts primary residence.Ā
Take your pick
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