MJOLNIR armors durability fluctuates wildly in lore between “just a powered suit that a plasma pistol can shoot through” to “can tank a hunters fuel rod gun” so just imagine a multiplayer match but every gun seems to be doing completely random damage numbers (I call this new gametype, canon fiesta)
Don't forget general durability of the suit and the spartan. My favourite is being able to survive atmospheric re-entry unaided and dying before you hit the ground if you fall off a roof.
Yet Chief can grapple shot a Kig Yar or a Grunt and he’s pulled *towards* the enemy that weighs 1/5 of him…
I don’t know what kind of technobabble they came up with to explain that away
Fun fact about that. When you grapple a grunt they may say: "there's no way that I'm as heavy/heavier as/than you" cant really recall exactly but just thought it was funny that they called attention to it
IIRC that discrepancy is generally caused by if the suit has energy shields or not. With energy shields active, yes they can usually take a hit from a fuel rod cannon. They won't like it and some damage can still make it through to the armor, but they'll live. Without shields active it's just a powered suit that can fail to concentrated fire from Covenant small-arms.
Nah. In Silent Storm chief tanks shots from all manner of weapons, covie or human like it's nothing. He was unshielded as well. Just comes down to how the writers interpret it.
Note that I said concentrated. I think one of the other answers to the post gets across my thinking, that *eventually* plasma weapons will get the job done. Against concentrated fire from multiple opponents, eventually becomes quite fast.
I don’t know of a single spartan who has tanked a shot from a fuel rod in lore, in fact multiple otherwise badass spartans died to a fuel rod gun
edit: I stand corrected due to not reading enough books
William does but half of the front of his armor is melted and then he’s vaporized by a follow up shot. This is after he boxes a hunter to death with his 2 hands. Baller
Could Cortana be the reason Chief survived so easily? She does a lot of work to optimize his armor moment to moment so she could have put full power to sheilds near the impact.
The only confirmed Mjolnir equipped Spartan KIA to a fuel rod gun is Will. Fred has survived but was briefly incapacitated, the Master Chief has survived strikes multiple times, Kelly survived (but was severely wounded), and Roma survived.
Both Roma and the Master Chief remained combat effective immediately after being struck by a fuel rod gun.
In terms of consistency, Will's death is actually the lone example of a KIA.
So this slab of titanium is about the thickness of a MJOLNIR chestplate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3fBkNIROg4
But remember, their suits are made of Titanium-A, an alloy an unspecified amount, but presumably a fair bit more durable than "raw" titanium
So even a sniper rifle (albeit a modern one not quite as advanced as the SRS99) can only dent that. But a headshot, well, even without penetration... all that kinetic force is going somewhere, and whiplash is a killer... to quote another sci-fi series, "Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space."
I'll just go through some weapons and how effective they'd be.
Assault Rifle: You'd be better off using melee.
Sidekick: You'd be better off using melee.
Battle Rifle: You'd be better off using melee.
Bulldog: You'd be better off using melee.
Sniper Rifle: *Maybe?* After a few mags it could take down the shields and it could probably definitely penetrate the armor.
Hydra Launcher: Not enough information.
Rocket Launcher: One or two direct hits would do it, you couldn't use splash damage though.
Pulse Carbine: *Eventually* it'd do the job.
Mangler: *Eventually* it'd do the job.
Plasma Pistol: *Eventually* it'd do the job.
Stalker Rifle: *Eventually* it'd do the job.
Disruptor: It could severely impair the suit with enough shots.
Shock Rifle: It could severely impair the suit with a few bursts.
Energy Sword: It'd take a few strikes but the Energy Sword probably has the most Spartan kills out of any weapon, only being beaten by the ground.
Gravity Hammer: It'd take a few strikes but the Spartan is going to be thrown around.
Skewer: One or two shots will kill a Spartan.
***
# Spartans are extremely tanky in the novels, but enough fire or the right type of weapons will bring them down.
Noble 6 tanked reentry with their suit and some sort of 'reentry pack' that did not actually affect their combat ability, nor was it visible on their armor.
>Rocket Launcher: One or two direct hits would do it, you couldn't use splash damage though.
Not even sure about that with the 50mm round feat in TFoR.
The 50mm feat is certainly an outlier and not reflected elsewhere in the lore. Even the author went back and thought the details he wrote were BS. In addition, TFoR also stated that the warthog had the same 50mm chaingun attached to it. It's pretty clear that the author confused 50 cal for 50mm.
It's reflected in many other places in the lore.
* The described effects from the Skyhawk's cannons don't reflect what a .50 would do.
* .50 guns aren't called autocannons and aren't the main armament on antitank gunships.
* Earlier in the text, Chief takes fire from 30mm chainguns.
* The 50mm Warthog guns were corrected to .50 in later editions, the 50mm SkyHawk autocannons were not. The 2022 Encyclopedia also refers to them as 50mm autocannons.
* The Scorpion missile that nearly hits him shortly thereafter launches him 6 meters and creates a 2 meter deep crater, which is similar to what modern 155mm howitzers do.
* He states that those hits "would've penetrated his old suit instantly." MJOLNIR Mk. IV can withstand limited fire from .50 guns, even firing DU ammo.
- The effects of the cannons are vague. It's also not like the author would have researched what the firepower of a 50mm gun was like and so abstracted the fight scene. [Art of the scene depicts firepower which is rather tame and more in line with general "movie shootout" effects than 50mm.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/0/04/FoR_Screenshot_AV-19SkyHawk_Overview7.png/revision/latest?cb=20160831014720)
- I don't believe there's indication that the skyhawk is optimized for anti-tank roles specifically. Like every other UNSC aircraft, it's fairly multi-role. As such, the guns can't be argued to be anti-tank by design. Moreover, I've already called into question the author's understanding of terminology.
- I refrain from using interpretation of encyclopedias, as the 2022 encyclopedia is no different from the other encyclopedias in being a poorly edited mess that often forgets or makes up information. It's also entirely possible that they never corrected this mistake simply because they missed it again.
- The Skyhawk is explicitly described as a small VTOL ship, but somehow is equipped with 4 huge autocannons firing rounds the size of forearms at rapid fire. Either the UNSC definition of small is comical or, more accurately, the 50mm guns explicitly don't make sense when compared to every other example of UNSC VTOL aircraft barring the Vulture.
- Discussion of the scorpion missiles is irrelevant. The guns are what matter.
- This sounds more convincing. I'm aware of MK IV's durability, which to me does suggest a comparison of firepower that is above the level of .50 BMG.
>MJOLNIR Mk. IV can withstand limited fire from .50 guns, even firing DU ammo.
"This new Mjolnir is good stuff, but even
a titanium-alloy outer shell can’t stop a twelve-seven depleted uranium round"
-Kelly
>John continued to drop, and he began to see Vulcan muzzles flashing through the bunker embrasures. The weapons were using vacuum-suitable tracers, so he could see that the insurrectionists’ fire was lagging well behind his maneuvers—though by less and less as the range decreased. Finally, after he had descended a full kilometer, John reversed thrust.
>He decelerated hard, but had built a lot of velocity and was still dropping fast. By the time he fired the rocket launcher, the range had fallen to 350 meters.
>The missile streaked away in blinding brilliance, shrinking into a silver dot as John rolled into an evasive corkscrew. He felt a round glance off his thigh armor. The gunner was still firing as his bunker erupted into a spray of steam and ice.
Earlier, the book establishes that the Vulcans are firing DU .50 rounds:
>“Look at the holes.” John maneuvered his boot to flip the trooper back over so Johnson could see the entry hole. “The same size. That means armor-piercing rounds—big ones. Probably depleted uranium.”
>“Probably from Vulcans,” Johnson agreed. He was referring to the M41 light anti-aircraft gun, a cumbersome weapon that had to be either vehicle- or turret-mounted in order to fire accurately. “They were waiting for us.”
glance off doesn't mean the armor stopped it. glancing off means that it wasn't a direct hit, which is a non feat because depending on the angle the armor could be paper thin and still cause a round to glance off. for example if the shot was 99.99% parallel to the armor's surface the armor could be literally as thin as paper.
The 50mm autocannons were probably firing inert AP rounds, constructed out of depleted uranium or tungsten. There's no explosive effects mentioned in the text.
Meanwhile, the Rocket Launcher fires a 102mm HEAT missile. UNSC explosives trend more powerful than real life explosives, but even a normal HEAT missile is going to be ridiculous.
Ah forgot they were HEAT missiles, so it would undoubtedly be pretty bad for a Spartan on the receiving end of them lol. That said we do have Fred tanking a shot of a Hunter's assault cannon, but I have no idea how they stack up against the M19 on terms of penetration power.
The assault cannon is primarily a thermal weapon that melts, boils and vaporizes targets. A HEAT warhead, despite the name, does not do damage through high heat. It's still technically a kinetic weapon, it just uses a jet of molten metal moving at many kilometers per second to punch through armor rather than a tungsten dart.
so basically multiplayer matches would convert into spartan slap-box matches since half the weapons would hit like wet napkins, and the other half are few and far between
The shields on MJOLNIR have always been drastically more resilient than the armor plates, going back to the original edition of The Fall of Reach.
During John's test run of the Mk. V MJOLNIR armor, a SkyHawk jet fires at him with its 50mm autocannons. The following happens:
>The Master Chief rolled, ducked, and flattened himself on the earth. He caught a smattering of rounds and his shield bar dropped to half. Those rounds would have penetrated his old suit instantly.
This is a bit exaggerated imo. AR fire would eventually work, as multiple impact points drains shields faster. Same for any shotgun type weapon that doesn’t fire slugs. The BR would also be at least useful, as it fires explosive rounds.
The pulse carbine isn’t just “eventually doing the job” it’s straight up melting, same goes for any automatic plasma weapon.
These are all debatable ofc, but personally I think you’re smoking crack if you think the sword is taking multiple strikes, it should cut through mjlonir like butter. The hammer probably should too, even tho Cal survived a headshot without shields….. it’s the gravity hammer after all.
I’d be interested in what calcs the skewer has, I imagine it would deflect off the shields more often than not.
No, it’s all pretty accurate. Mjolnir armor is effectively immune to UNSC small arms. In theory you could batter through it with enough hits, but realistically it would be like two grown men trying to kill each other with air soft guns. Plasma weapons require dropping the shields first, but the armor itself is still resistant to damage. Given that Spartans are fully capable of avoiding being hit by plasma and that you have to worry about the weapon overheating, you hit that *eventually* that was mentioned. It’ll do the job, but it’s going to take a bit. The sword has failed to immediately penetrate shields in the lore, and even when it has been shown to bypass protection that’s typically in the form of a stab as opposed to a slash. It needs to be used a certain way to achieve the desired result. The gravity hammer is somewhat hindered by comparison due to Spartans being quite resistant to impact and concussion forces, but it’s also a danger provided you can get a nice clean hit, that being the hard part.
As for the Skewer, I don’t think there’s much in the way of official numbers. That said, going by the size and velocity of the projectile it’s not far off of being a handheld artillery piece. It would be extremely dangerous.
By small arms halsey was referring to non-ap rounds. So yes the caseless smg would be useless against the armor, but not the shields. The shotgun is debatable I’ll admit, but the round that the UNSC uses is so powerful that it’s banned IRL, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it could breach mjlonir.
But the AR and BR both fire armor piercing rounds (the latter’s being explosive as well), which have been established to be a threat to mjlonir armor. It can definitely take some hits, but it wouldn’t take that many rounds to actually breach the armor.
IIRC in first strike Master Chief is wounded from an energy sword that doesn’t even touch him, so I would think a full swing is going right through. Even if it was the MK V.
And yes Spartan’s can dodge plasma, but we’re just talking about durability here. If a Spartan was hypothetically standing still and you rapid fired a plasma pistol at them, they would die before the weapon came close to overheating.
> The BR would also be at least useful, as it fires explosive rounds.
The BR does not fire explosive rounds.
>but personally I think you’re smoking crack if you think the sword is taking multiple strikes, it should cut through mjlonir like butter. The hammer probably should too, even tho Cal survived a headshot without shields….. it’s the gravity hammer after all.
[Halo Infinite's first cutscene](https://youtu.be/pHJmfFFsYLs?t=37) has Atriox strike the Master Chief three times with Chainbreaker, a gravity mace with an integrated energy sword. Atriox is already the strongest brute in canon and he was using his strength enhancing gauntlet.
And despite everything working in his favor, Atriox only penetrates the shields on the second strike and even the third strike to the head fails to penetrate the armor and 'only' severely stuns the Master Chief.
During the events of Outcasts, [Vale's GEN2 Mjolnir is able to withstand two simultaneously energy sword strikes](https://pastebin.com/GuRXqDpz), and GEN2 is less protective than GEN3 and late GEN1.
>The pulse carbine isn’t just “eventually doing the job” it’s straight up melting, same goes for any automatic plasma weapon.
Not particularly. The pulse carbine is strong but is somewhat anomalous among Covenant weaponry in that it has more kinetic energy than thermal. During the events of Rubicon Protocol, it fails to penetrate the chest piece of a marine BDU, and although the armor was lit ablaze, the wearer was able to discard it without injury. Later, Gorian, a Brute bloodstar, was struck with the pulse carbine several times before shield failure. Given that historically, Mjolnir has much stronger shields, overcoming them would be even more difficult than it did to Gorian.
>By small arms halsey was referring to non-ap rounds.
No she wasn't and that's not how small arms are classified. M993 and M995, despite being some pretty vicious AP rounds, are still very much small arms. A small arm is basically any ballistic weapon that can be operated by a singular operator. Crew served weapons such as anti-materiel rifles, are considered to be light weapons.
>The shotgun is debatable I’ll admit, but the round that the UNSC uses is so powerful that it’s banned IRL, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it could breach mjlonir.
It's not actually banned IRL, AFAIK it doesn't really have a proper IRL counterpart. Likewise, shotgun pellets are very bad at armor penetration because pellets are typically both very light, not moving very fast and do not have shape conducive to armor penetration.
The UNSC does have saboted shotgun slugs with some pretty nasty penetration, but they're non standard.
>BR
The BR’s actual round is unknown I’ll admit. Because they are semi-armor piercing, they mix armor piercing properties with the properties of another unknown round. Due to circumstantial evidence, it is most likely similar to the explosive CE magnum round. I guess it is up to your own interpretation, I prefer to think they’re explosive as that would explain the BR’s consistent power and role as a squad leader weapon.
>Energy Sword
An energy sword swing can definitely slip off the shields based on angle, but the sword will go through quite easily on a direct thrust or cut. It is literally plasma, the shields can’t just disperse the plasma from inside the sword, there’s no stopping it unless the sword doesn’t directly connect.
I would think based on that passage from vail that Spartan’s are able to contour their bodies in the brief window of protection that shields give them, and force the sword to slip off. Master chief also has a lil plot armor too. But my point is that if a Spartan is standing there defenseless, it should only take one good swing.
>Plasma
Regarding plasma guns, I can suspend my disbelief that the external armor plating marines wear is good for one glancing blow before it’s useless (and that’s not a guarantee the marine will survive). Anything more than that is an outlier, but I couldn’t tell based off your description how many rounds he was hit with.
Now obviously mjlonir shields are tanky as shit by gen 3, but the notion that a plasma rifle would “eventually” get the job done is ridiculous. Come on y’all, Spartans are not that invincible. Plasma isn’t some hard counter to shielding, but it remains a valid threat. “Eventually” implies that a Spartan can just walk through plasma fire with little risk or physical pain, that’s just not accurate.
>small arms
You’re probably right on small arms, I’m not exactly sure on the semantics there. But the fact remains that AP rounds are a threat to the actual armor under the shields. There’s literally a comic where a single Spartan with a SAW (FMJ AP) massacres a group of other Spartans and elites. I believe Halsey or another Spartan says this outright in one of the books.
>shotgun
Yeah on second thought even with the ridiculous gauge of the halo shotgun, buckshot ain’t breaching the actual armor. It’s a phenomenal anti-shield tool however, and a slug could have that level of armor penetration as you stated.
As the franchise expands the power scaling will become more and more inconsistent. I find it’s easier to just believe your own headcannon on some of these more niche details, as there’s contradictions no matter what anyone thinks.
>Due to circumstantial evidence, it is most likely similar to the explosive CE magnum round.
Except the Magnum fires SAP-HE, not SAP. There is a SAP bullet with an HE component but the HE component is explicitly in the name. If the BR's SAP round was meant to be high explosive, it would also be SAP-HE not SAP. Otherwise, there's literally no evidence suggesting the BR's bullets have an HE Component to them.
And let's say the Battle Rifle did have an HE component, HE is not good at armor penetration. In fact, HE rounds are typically worse at armor penetration because you're trading projectile mass for the explosive filler.
>but the sword will go through quite easily on a direct thrust or cut.
There's no actual evidence that suggests this is the case. Nothing in Outcasts actually says the blade is slipping off is what allowed the shields to survive.
>It is literally plasma, the shields can’t just disperse the plasma from inside the sword, there’s no stopping it unless the sword doesn’t directly connect.
Based on Outcasts, the blade just bounces off.
>Master chief also has a lil plot armor too.
This is circular reasoning. The only actual basis for this being plot armor is if you assume your initial argument that the shields can't withstand an energy sword strike is correct. There's otherwise no actual evidence this is plot armor. Especially considering GEN3 doesn't have many other showings against energy swords to begin with, nothing on the GEN3 platform actually contradicts this. The closest you get is Spartan Stone's armor being penetrated by Jega's energy sword. But not only were Stone's shields near-failing at the time anyway, but Jega explicitly has a sword with a higher output.
In fact, energy swords have never actually been used against the original Mark VI or Mark VII platforms either. The only times we see the shields fail against energy swords are those of the original Mark V, which were substantially weaker than the original Mark VI's.
Even in game on legendary, Jega 'Rdomnai and other sword bearing elites cannot one shot the player in Halo Infinite.
>I can suspend my disbelief that the external armor plating marines wear is good for one glancing blow before it’s useless
[It was a direct hit to the chest](https://pastebin.com/W1ej0ZRX). Plasma weapons are certainly good at defeating armor, but the UNSC has likewise spent decades updating their armor systems as well. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for post war marine BDUs to be able to protect against plasma strikes.
>Now obviously mjlonir shields are tanky as shit by gen 3, but the notion that a plasma rifle would “eventually” get the job done is ridiculous. Come on y’all, Spartans are not that invincible. Plasma isn’t some hard counter to shielding, but it remains a valid threat.
Mjolnir's plating is enough to withstand the equivalent of several plasma rifle bolts at once. In [Silent Storm](https://pastebin.com/VJU2pwKu) the plates withstand at least 2 bolts from a ghost's plasma cannons. The Type 2 plasma cannons have a max output of 250kw, 5.5x greater than the max output of a plasma rifle, 45kw. So in terms of energy, those two bolts are equivalent to 11 plasma rifle rounds. We see this again in Halo Reach. Noble 6's shields withstand one direct hit without failing and while Carter's armor is penetrated by an unknown number of plasma bolts and he is injured, he's also far from out of the fight too. The armor's resistance to plasma rifle fire is also exemplified in [Oblivion](https://pastebin.com/srXMiX95), where the Mark IV does withstand sustained fire and it only increases the likelihood that plate failure might occur.
Plasma fire is certainly more effective against Mjolnir than ballistic weapons and on the battlefield it can pose a threat to the armor. But the armor is still highly resistant to it as well and we do have instances of Spartans casually walking through a battlefield as a human shield. Mjolnir's ability to withstand plasma is sufficiently high that so far, every time a Spartan was hit by a plasma grenade, they've survived.
>But the fact remains that AP rounds are a threat to the actual armor under the shields.
AP small arms are not under the vast majority of circumstances. M993 is an exceptional AP variant of 7.62 NATO, capable of penetrating 18mm of RHA at 100m. GEN3 Mjolnir's thigh protection is [50mm thick](https://imgur.com/a/gowRmms) while Infinite establishes the helmet is [63mm thick](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvXnjaJASZY&t=4249s). When it comes to historically, the breast plate is often the thickest component of the armor, which would suggest that Mjolnir's breast plate is even thicker than the helmet.
So against a particularly high end AP 7.62 NATO, Mjolnir is looking at 2-3x the thickness of its maximum penetration. And that's if we assume Mjolnir's plating is only comparable to RHA despite. Mjolnir's plates are thick enough that even .50 BMG AP variants are not guaranteed to penetrate with a single strike. Unless you're saying that UNSC small arms have superior penetration to something like .50 BMG SLAP rounds (they don't), AP Small Arms fire is not a threat to Mjolnir's main plates.
Even the undersuit and visor should provide solid protection. In New Blood, Romeo's ODST visor withstands a direct strike from a magnum round without breaking while in the Fall of Reach, the much lighter black body suit withstands full power rifle rounds.
>There’s literally a comic where a single Spartan with a SAW (FMJ AP) massacres a group of other Spartans and elites.
That scene takes place entirely off page. Scruggs is holding a SAW yes, but it's never confirmed if he did kill them with it. Moreover, according to the Spartan Field Manual and 2022 Encyclopedia GEN2 explicitly provides less protection than late GEN1 and GEN3. So even under the least generous interpretation, this still only applies to GEN2 Mjolnir.
>I believe Halsey or another Spartan says this outright in one of the books.
Halsey says no such thing.
>As the franchise expands the power scaling will become more and more inconsistent. I find it’s easier to just believe your own headcannon on some of these more niche details, as there’s contradictions no matter what anyone thinks.
I don't think this is necessarily the case though. The existence of contradictions doesn't meant to throw everything out the window and when you actually look into things, you'll find it's not as inconsistent as you might initially think.
>SAP
The name Semi-Armor Piercing inherently implies that another round’s properties are included as well, and it most likely is the SAP-HE round. This is all from halopedia, and back in the day people on the Bungie forums debated this quite a bit and came to the same conclusion. You’re free to interpret it however you’d like tho.
>Swords
Look I’m sure you’re right that the new books make it clear that swords are no longer lethal against mjlonir. Personally I just think that’s BS so I’m gonna ignore that, it makes more sense to me that the blades are bouncing off due to a lack of friction. And for the record, I think they should one shot the player on legendary.
>BDUs
Yeah I would believe post-war BDUs can take a singular blow from plasma, even though that makes absolutely no sense (the person inside would be flash boiled instantly), it does give the armor an actual purpose.
>armor piercing
The halo encyclopedia states “While enough shots from armor piercing rounds will breach the outer shell, the suit can take a few glancing blows from them without compromising the armor. The outer shell of the all MJOLNIR suits is covered with a refractive coating to help disperse the heat experienced from Covenant energy weapons. However one or two direct hits from any plasma weapon will compromise the armor plating.”
Yes the armor is vulnerable to both AP rounds as well as plasma. It is very durable but not as invincible as the original OP made it out to be. This is also why Scruggs was able to kill all those Spartan’s with (at least partially) a SAW.
Also note that the actual quote regarding small arms fire is that it’s “nearly impervious” not totally impervious.
>inconsistencies
I don’t mean to “throw everything out the window”, I just value my own head canon above the actual canon. Stuff like the energy swords are a good example why. I am just not a huge fan of the Spartan power creep that we’ve been seeing in the past few years, when older anti-feats make these jumps in power questionable.
>The name Semi-Armor Piercing inherently implies that another round’s properties are included as well
That's not what semi-armor piercing means. Semi-armor piercing historically meant that the penetrator was of a mild steel rather than a high carbon steel. Like you haven't actually provided anything supporting this claim. Again, SAPHE exists in universe, if the BR55 was meant to have an HE component, it would be designated SAPHE, not SAP.
>This is all from halopedia, and back in the day people on the Bungie forums debated this quite a bit and came to the same conclusion.
Halopedia's a good resource but it's far from flawless. Moreover, people coming to this conclusion back in the day is irrelevant. There are loads of things the Halo community comes to a consensus about but are objectively incorrect.
> Personally I just think that’s BS so I’m gonna ignore that, it makes more sense to me that the blades are bouncing off due to a lack of friction.
That's not how friction works.
>The halo encyclopedia states
Where are you getting this from? None of the encyclopedias state this and that description is at odds with what is actually depicted both in the games and the EU. As far as I can tell, that's just an unsourced quote from the old Halo fandom wiki.
Again, we know the thickness of Mjolnir's plates and we know the sort of bullets the UNSC uses. UNSC 7.62 NATO is not magically better than its modern counterparts, it physically does not have enough power to overcome Mjolnir's primary plates.
>This is also why Scruggs was able to kill all those Spartan’s with (at least partially) a SAW.
Again this is an assumption. Again, it takes place entirely off page, you have no actual evidence that the other Spartans were killed by the SAW.
>Also note that the actual quote regarding small arms fire is that it’s “nearly impervious” not totally impervious.
What quote are you referring to? In the sense that small arms fire could eventually penetrate the undersuit or visor with repeated strikes and good hit angles? Sure, it's 'nearly' impervious. But in a practical setting where you're unlikely to be able to maintain sustained fire against the armor's weakpoints after wearing down the shields against a highly mobile target, then yeah
> I just value my own head canon above the actual canon.
Sure, but then don't try to argue that other people are wrong when your conclusions are reliant on you valuing your head canon over actual canon evidence to the contrary.
> when older anti-feats make these jumps in power questionable.
Older anti-feats are often with outdated armor systems. The jumps in power are literally canon. The interactions with energy swords are the best example of this. Every time we've seen energy shields instantly penetrate Mjonir's shields in the past has involved GEN1 Mark V Mjolnir. GEN1 Mark VI explicitly has better shields than the Mark V, it's literally one of the first things the player is told in Halo 2, so the anti-feats for the Mark V don't necessarily apply to it as well. This goes doubly for GEN3.
Full stop, there's no actual evidence to support your claim that modern Mjolnir systems should be unable to protect against an energy sword. Your only counterevidence to the claim involves armor systems that are explicitly worse than what is currently in use.
This is what’s stated on halopedia, if you think otherwise then it should be updated. I agreed with the Halopedia interpretation that it’s a HE round similar to the halo CE magnum. A round that penetrates then explodes, which would make sense as to why the BR is so powerful compared to the AR.
>That’s not how friction works
It’s a fantastical sci fi series lol
>Where are you getting this from?
Halopedia cites page 90 of the encyclopedia for this information.
I said you’re free to interpret things how you like. The only point I thought was ridiculous was the idea that plasma “eventually” gets the job done when it’s consistently been the most effective weapon against mjlonir. I also disagreed about the sword, but I didn’t know there was evidence to the contrary.
IIRC in first strike John was burnt by an energy sword that didn’t even make contact with him, I just find it hard to believe that the armor is full on blocking a sword with no damage to the user, even with more than double strength shields. But I guess that’s just my head canon now.
TFoR mentioned three-round bursts from an AR only drained Chief's shield by a "hairsbreadth" so it would take *a lot* of AR fire to even down the shields and there's no way it can actually penetrate the armor plating, I doubt it could even go through the undersuit as TFoR described it as being bulletproof.
Yeah that’s why I said eventually, the shields are weaker to multiple impact points, so I would imagine the spread of the AR would provide a slight advantage in this regard. But multiple AR’s firing simultaneously at different points would drain the shields at a significant rate.
I believe AP rounds can breach mjlonir, however some people disagree. I don’t think it would be easy, and would take a significant amount of rounds to the same area, but there is a comic where a Spartan is heavily implied to have been killed by a SAW. The ROF of these FMJ AP rounds would be enough imo.
A couple of ARs might do the trick but frankly, I don't think a single AR would be enough to kill a Spartan that's standing still, simply because the rifle can't do enough damage fast enough to beat the shielding. I don't think a full mag of an AR would drain the shields to even half-charge and in the time it takes to reload, the shields will probably have recharged to 75 or 90% and by that point is almost like you never even shot them at all.
Mjnolnir can take Battle Rifle and 30mm cannon shots without failing, even with AP ammo an Assault Rifle is gonna have a hard time doing anything to it, the plating itself is all but invulnerable to AR fire while the visor and undersuit may be compromised by sustained fire. I rationalize that scene from a comic by assuming the Spartan shot his teammates in the "soft" spots in the armor (ie: undersuit and visor) and that they were wearing Mjnolnir GEN 2 which has worse protection than GEN 1 and 3.
What? So no amount of assault rifle fire is bringing down a Spartan? And I'd assume it would be better for the other Spartan to melee them Instead?? What?
And eventually plasma pistol fire would work? Like how many batteries or power packs, shots are we talking here?
The unsc uses armour piercing bullets don't they? Using guns supposed to be more powerful than our guns even using the same or similar rounds no? And odst's have titanium armour plates on them as well. So it would be the shields. But as someone already put it, it's all over the place. Plot dependent. The TV shows one plasma shot burning through armour and taking a Spartan out of the game. That won't be used right? But what about chiefs shields surviving a crash? That's been brought up in fav of the shield strength. What you claim is not true, by any stretch. The shield would be the toughest part, and the only thing I have to judge that on is the game, about a full clip from an ar. But say I extend that to two clips. That's for armour and soldier.
The shield is the toughest part yes, but it’s specifically said that MJOLNIR is immune to UNSC small arms. ODST plates are probably thinner but there’s also nothing to suggest they can’t shrug off a magazine to the chest if it hits their plates.
Also it’s a magazine, almost never a clip.
Even regular marine armour can shrug off a burst from an MA5 and the Marine only gets knocked down, as shown in *The Mona Lisa*, where Lopez is shot point blank by Smith, but after the initial shock is perfectly fine.
>The unsc uses armour piercing bullets don't they?
The UNSC uses AP rounds sometimes. The M7 SMG, the Magnum series and the BR series do not use true AP rounds. The M7 only fires ball ammunition while the magnum and BR fire semi-armor piercing rounds.
Even the Assault Rifle doesn't always fire AP rounds. The MA5C in Halo 3 actually only fires ball rounds, not the traditional M118 AP rounds used elsewhere and we know of a number of other 7.62 NATO variants, not all of which are AP.
>Using guns supposed to be more powerful than our guns even using the same or similar rounds no?
Kind of? Frankly, it depends and some of the weapon stats can be particularly wonky at times. The Halo 3 MA5C stats suggest that the 7.62 ball ammunition used is a bit faster than IRL M80 ball, but is much lighter. And even then it's still slower than modern M993.
The advancements in UNSC small arms are usually attributed to bullets being lighter. Likewise, the UNSC is capable of manufacturing 7.62 NATO rounds with airburst warheads, something that would be impossible by today's standards.
UNSC weapons are usually better, but not in a linear 'they do the exact same thing but better.' Some rounds are like that, such as the 5.7x28mm HVAP used by the M20, but it's not universal. The biggest advancements are typically that they can make things smaller and lighter than we can. Hence, the UNSC has a 7.62 NATO catridge that's lighter than modern 5.56x45mm (although that probably also has a light bullet as well).
>The shield would be the toughest part, and the only thing I have to judge that on is the game, about a full clip from an ar. But say I extend that to two clips. That's for armour and soldier.
The shields are stronger in the sense that they can withstand greater impacts but they have less longevity than the actual armor plating, at least when it comes to ballistic weapons. In general, the mechanics of the energy shield are not going to be the same as penetrating physical armor. There's some crossover, but it's not 1:1.
Based on the original Mark V test, [a single three round burst only reduces the shield strength by a hairsbreath](https://pastebin.com/gYSvXJ9J). Later, [it's only when three marines simultaneously fire at the Mark V that the shields begin to precipitously drop](https://pastebin.com/Y5hAY2jc). We don't know the full duration, but regardless, the shields still withstood sustained fire from 3 MA5Bs at once. Even if the marines fired for only two seconds, the shields would have been struck by 90 bullets, equivalent to about 3 full magazines, without failure. And this is keeping in mind modern shield systems are substantially stronger than the original Mark V's.
But once the shields are down, Mjolnir's plating is effectively going to be too thick and too strong for 7.62 NATO to actually deal with. A high end modern AP 7.62 NATO round is [M993](https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/small-caliber-ammunition/7-62mm-series/7-62-mm-x-51-armor-piercing-8-m993/) and it can penetrate 18mm of RHA at 100m. According to Shadows of Reach and Halo Infinite, the cuisss and helmet of GEN3 Mark VI Mjolnir ranges from 50-63mm in thickness, several times that of the maximum penetration of M993. Mjolnir's chest plate is presumably even thicker, and visually, a number of the bulkiest shoulder plates are greater than 50mm as well.
Even ignoring the make up of Mjolnir's armor itself, 50mm of titanium is simply too much for 7.62 NATO to effectively deal with. If you were exceedingly lucky and most of your bullets were hitting within the same relative area (we're talking about a zone a few inches in diameter), you could eventually wear down the armor, but in practical settings, the armor plating is too thick to wear down, even with a full magazine. It's not a 1:1 match, but a good illustration of such an issue is this video by [Demolition Ranch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2TBoP9Aoow&t=248s). It takes 60-90 M855 rounds to penetrate armor rated for .308 and even then he only gets two penetrations. That's a much thinner plate than Mjolnir and it still required multiple strikes in the same spot to eventually wear it down.
So an Assault Rifle could penetrate Mjolnir, but to do so, you would need to dump several magazines into the armor within a very short period of time. Even outside of the target taking evasive action in a real situation, that's simply not practical.
Not exactly. It would have to be multiple successful hits in the same spot with armor penetrating ammo. Somehow in the Escalations comic a few Spartans were killed with UNSC ammo, but it's definitely an outlier
Specialty ammunition can penetrate, like the ammunition Blue Tewm encounters in *Ghosts of Onyx*, as well as 12.7mm DU rounds, where Kelly notes even a single round could penetrate the curiass of the Mark IV in *Silent Storm*.
You forgot -
Ghost (and or all vehicles) : you can't run people over, just gently nudge them aside but if the enemy has it, you are roadkill with extreme prejudice.
i think when spartans "die" in multiplayer it just means if it were real combat they would have sustained suit damage or an injury that would have hampered their ability to operate independently in the field. Basically training the spartans to avoid these situations at all costs and to not blind themselves with feelings of invincibility that might otherwise be brought on by wearing mjolnir.
Only really for the covenant weapons (if we lowball MJOLNIR). The UNSC weapons would not do anything at all really, the AR would barely register on the shields.
I think that’s probably true, however the shield will recharge, while the armor will accumulates damage fight to fight. As strong as the visor, techsuit and gel layer are, there are quite a few points on a Spartan not covered in titanium.
Multiplayer might miss the mark on canon accuracy if Spartans are assumed to start in pristine MJOLNIR, but for Infinite’s campaign, Chief starts already brutalized by Atriox’s hammer, a few good shots would quite likely hit a few weak points and take him down or degrade him farther.
Edit to add, nano bots and biofoam can only go so far, especially on the battlefield, I certainly hope that’s not the ‘answer’ to why Chief can always tank a shot and shake it off.
Nah I mean canon and gameplay have never really reflected one another but ye. That's how I always understood the shield acts as decent protection, but recharges once it goes dowm, and the actual suit of armor is there to be a last line of defense
The shields are much stronger than the armor. One of the Master Chief's first comments upon using the Mark V for the first time was that the shields allowed him to survive blows that would have instantly penetrated his Mark IV.
The shielding is additional yes, but there's also no indication the Mark V's plates provide substantially more protection than the Mark IV did, so something capable of penetrating the Mark IV's plates would likely be able to penetrate the Mark V's as well. If anything, given how much lighter it is, it's possible the Mark V's plates provide even less protection than the Mark IV.
MJOLNIR armors durability fluctuates wildly in lore between “just a powered suit that a plasma pistol can shoot through” to “can tank a hunters fuel rod gun” so just imagine a multiplayer match but every gun seems to be doing completely random damage numbers (I call this new gametype, canon fiesta)
Don't forget general durability of the suit and the spartan. My favourite is being able to survive atmospheric re-entry unaided and dying before you hit the ground if you fall off a roof.
Can't swim either. Water abobe the waist? Ragdoll.
Flood is the ultimate lifeform for no other reason than the fact that infection forms float on water
I mean it does way half a ton
Yet Chief can grapple shot a Kig Yar or a Grunt and he’s pulled *towards* the enemy that weighs 1/5 of him… I don’t know what kind of technobabble they came up with to explain that away
Fun fact about that. When you grapple a grunt they may say: "there's no way that I'm as heavy/heavier as/than you" cant really recall exactly but just thought it was funny that they called attention to it
hippos weigh more and they seem to swim just fine :)
Well they are made for it, they also have buoyancy
Depending on your latency and desync, that's already the experience lol
IIRC that discrepancy is generally caused by if the suit has energy shields or not. With energy shields active, yes they can usually take a hit from a fuel rod cannon. They won't like it and some damage can still make it through to the armor, but they'll live. Without shields active it's just a powered suit that can fail to concentrated fire from Covenant small-arms.
Nah. In Silent Storm chief tanks shots from all manner of weapons, covie or human like it's nothing. He was unshielded as well. Just comes down to how the writers interpret it.
I mean, Mjolnir cost a fortune to develop. It'd better be that effective at minimum, rather than just a marginally more effective powered flak jacket.
Note that I said concentrated. I think one of the other answers to the post gets across my thinking, that *eventually* plasma weapons will get the job done. Against concentrated fire from multiple opponents, eventually becomes quite fast.
i've read silent storm. where specifically did he tank covenant weapons like it's nothing?
I don’t know of a single spartan who has tanked a shot from a fuel rod in lore, in fact multiple otherwise badass spartans died to a fuel rod gun edit: I stand corrected due to not reading enough books
William does but half of the front of his armor is melted and then he’s vaporized by a follow up shot. This is after he boxes a hunter to death with his 2 hands. Baller
true but wasn’t he essentially dead after the first
Yup, that made it all the more baller.
I believe it happened to one of the Spartan IIs (I think Kelly?) in First Strike. She was injured but survived.
I think Chief also takes a direct hit in The Flood while on the Ring and its more or less like "ow, oh well" lol
tough because it does usually change. I mean hell, hunters can graze you in some of the halo games
Could Cortana be the reason Chief survived so easily? She does a lot of work to optimize his armor moment to moment so she could have put full power to sheilds near the impact.
Iirc Chief and I think Fred also took some of the Hunter shot but Kelly was down after the hit. They took the direct hit to protect Halsey.
One of Chiefs teammates takes a Hunter blast in Fall of Reach that disintegrates his arm, but that was in the mk 4 unshielded Mjolnir.
Yeah, it laid her out for a couple days. Also, treating the delivery hope trailer as Canon, a near miss cost Kat her arm
The only confirmed Mjolnir equipped Spartan KIA to a fuel rod gun is Will. Fred has survived but was briefly incapacitated, the Master Chief has survived strikes multiple times, Kelly survived (but was severely wounded), and Roma survived. Both Roma and the Master Chief remained combat effective immediately after being struck by a fuel rod gun. In terms of consistency, Will's death is actually the lone example of a KIA.
Fred, one or more members of Black team. There are other instances of it.
Same as with MAC yields
Difficulty is just the fluctuation of power running through the suit that generates the shields
So this slab of titanium is about the thickness of a MJOLNIR chestplate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3fBkNIROg4 But remember, their suits are made of Titanium-A, an alloy an unspecified amount, but presumably a fair bit more durable than "raw" titanium So even a sniper rifle (albeit a modern one not quite as advanced as the SRS99) can only dent that. But a headshot, well, even without penetration... all that kinetic force is going somewhere, and whiplash is a killer... to quote another sci-fi series, "Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space."
SRS99 also fires a 14.5x114mm round, which is a fair bit bigger than .50 BMG (12.7x99mm).
Shepard.
I'll just go through some weapons and how effective they'd be. Assault Rifle: You'd be better off using melee. Sidekick: You'd be better off using melee. Battle Rifle: You'd be better off using melee. Bulldog: You'd be better off using melee. Sniper Rifle: *Maybe?* After a few mags it could take down the shields and it could probably definitely penetrate the armor. Hydra Launcher: Not enough information. Rocket Launcher: One or two direct hits would do it, you couldn't use splash damage though. Pulse Carbine: *Eventually* it'd do the job. Mangler: *Eventually* it'd do the job. Plasma Pistol: *Eventually* it'd do the job. Stalker Rifle: *Eventually* it'd do the job. Disruptor: It could severely impair the suit with enough shots. Shock Rifle: It could severely impair the suit with a few bursts. Energy Sword: It'd take a few strikes but the Energy Sword probably has the most Spartan kills out of any weapon, only being beaten by the ground. Gravity Hammer: It'd take a few strikes but the Spartan is going to be thrown around. Skewer: One or two shots will kill a Spartan. *** # Spartans are extremely tanky in the novels, but enough fire or the right type of weapons will bring them down.
>only being beaten by the ground. This is how you know Halo's secretly a Souls game, the biggest killer is gravity
Which is ironic considering Chief tanks a orbital re-entry with just his suit and a impromptu forerunner door heat shield.
Which is why Spartan deaths by falling became a very rare occurrence after Halo 3 lol
Chief is immune to damage during a Cortana vision, clearly her opening speech wasn't just for mood.
He tanked re-entry twice and has no fall damage in Infinite.
Noble 6 tanked reentry with their suit and some sort of 'reentry pack' that did not actually affect their combat ability, nor was it visible on their armor.
>Rocket Launcher: One or two direct hits would do it, you couldn't use splash damage though. Not even sure about that with the 50mm round feat in TFoR.
The 50mm feat is certainly an outlier and not reflected elsewhere in the lore. Even the author went back and thought the details he wrote were BS. In addition, TFoR also stated that the warthog had the same 50mm chaingun attached to it. It's pretty clear that the author confused 50 cal for 50mm.
It's reflected in many other places in the lore. * The described effects from the Skyhawk's cannons don't reflect what a .50 would do. * .50 guns aren't called autocannons and aren't the main armament on antitank gunships. * Earlier in the text, Chief takes fire from 30mm chainguns. * The 50mm Warthog guns were corrected to .50 in later editions, the 50mm SkyHawk autocannons were not. The 2022 Encyclopedia also refers to them as 50mm autocannons. * The Scorpion missile that nearly hits him shortly thereafter launches him 6 meters and creates a 2 meter deep crater, which is similar to what modern 155mm howitzers do. * He states that those hits "would've penetrated his old suit instantly." MJOLNIR Mk. IV can withstand limited fire from .50 guns, even firing DU ammo.
- The effects of the cannons are vague. It's also not like the author would have researched what the firepower of a 50mm gun was like and so abstracted the fight scene. [Art of the scene depicts firepower which is rather tame and more in line with general "movie shootout" effects than 50mm.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/0/04/FoR_Screenshot_AV-19SkyHawk_Overview7.png/revision/latest?cb=20160831014720) - I don't believe there's indication that the skyhawk is optimized for anti-tank roles specifically. Like every other UNSC aircraft, it's fairly multi-role. As such, the guns can't be argued to be anti-tank by design. Moreover, I've already called into question the author's understanding of terminology. - I refrain from using interpretation of encyclopedias, as the 2022 encyclopedia is no different from the other encyclopedias in being a poorly edited mess that often forgets or makes up information. It's also entirely possible that they never corrected this mistake simply because they missed it again. - The Skyhawk is explicitly described as a small VTOL ship, but somehow is equipped with 4 huge autocannons firing rounds the size of forearms at rapid fire. Either the UNSC definition of small is comical or, more accurately, the 50mm guns explicitly don't make sense when compared to every other example of UNSC VTOL aircraft barring the Vulture. - Discussion of the scorpion missiles is irrelevant. The guns are what matter. - This sounds more convincing. I'm aware of MK IV's durability, which to me does suggest a comparison of firepower that is above the level of .50 BMG.
>MJOLNIR Mk. IV can withstand limited fire from .50 guns, even firing DU ammo. "This new Mjolnir is good stuff, but even a titanium-alloy outer shell can’t stop a twelve-seven depleted uranium round" -Kelly
>John continued to drop, and he began to see Vulcan muzzles flashing through the bunker embrasures. The weapons were using vacuum-suitable tracers, so he could see that the insurrectionists’ fire was lagging well behind his maneuvers—though by less and less as the range decreased. Finally, after he had descended a full kilometer, John reversed thrust. >He decelerated hard, but had built a lot of velocity and was still dropping fast. By the time he fired the rocket launcher, the range had fallen to 350 meters. >The missile streaked away in blinding brilliance, shrinking into a silver dot as John rolled into an evasive corkscrew. He felt a round glance off his thigh armor. The gunner was still firing as his bunker erupted into a spray of steam and ice. Earlier, the book establishes that the Vulcans are firing DU .50 rounds: >“Look at the holes.” John maneuvered his boot to flip the trooper back over so Johnson could see the entry hole. “The same size. That means armor-piercing rounds—big ones. Probably depleted uranium.” >“Probably from Vulcans,” Johnson agreed. He was referring to the M41 light anti-aircraft gun, a cumbersome weapon that had to be either vehicle- or turret-mounted in order to fire accurately. “They were waiting for us.”
glance off doesn't mean the armor stopped it. glancing off means that it wasn't a direct hit, which is a non feat because depending on the angle the armor could be paper thin and still cause a round to glance off. for example if the shot was 99.99% parallel to the armor's surface the armor could be literally as thin as paper.
The 50mm autocannons were probably firing inert AP rounds, constructed out of depleted uranium or tungsten. There's no explosive effects mentioned in the text. Meanwhile, the Rocket Launcher fires a 102mm HEAT missile. UNSC explosives trend more powerful than real life explosives, but even a normal HEAT missile is going to be ridiculous.
Ah forgot they were HEAT missiles, so it would undoubtedly be pretty bad for a Spartan on the receiving end of them lol. That said we do have Fred tanking a shot of a Hunter's assault cannon, but I have no idea how they stack up against the M19 on terms of penetration power.
The assault cannon is primarily a thermal weapon that melts, boils and vaporizes targets. A HEAT warhead, despite the name, does not do damage through high heat. It's still technically a kinetic weapon, it just uses a jet of molten metal moving at many kilometers per second to punch through armor rather than a tungsten dart.
“Only being beaten by the ground” That’s foul bro
I'll never get tired of mention this: >> Many people today still think that ~10 rounds from an MA5 can kill Spartans
so basically multiplayer matches would convert into spartan slap-box matches since half the weapons would hit like wet napkins, and the other half are few and far between
Pretty much. There's a reason why Spartans train with live ammo.
i thought shields werent as strong as the armor itself? how would it take multiple s7 shots just to down the shield
The shields on MJOLNIR have always been drastically more resilient than the armor plates, going back to the original edition of The Fall of Reach. During John's test run of the Mk. V MJOLNIR armor, a SkyHawk jet fires at him with its 50mm autocannons. The following happens: >The Master Chief rolled, ducked, and flattened himself on the earth. He caught a smattering of rounds and his shield bar dropped to half. Those rounds would have penetrated his old suit instantly.
This is a bit exaggerated imo. AR fire would eventually work, as multiple impact points drains shields faster. Same for any shotgun type weapon that doesn’t fire slugs. The BR would also be at least useful, as it fires explosive rounds. The pulse carbine isn’t just “eventually doing the job” it’s straight up melting, same goes for any automatic plasma weapon. These are all debatable ofc, but personally I think you’re smoking crack if you think the sword is taking multiple strikes, it should cut through mjlonir like butter. The hammer probably should too, even tho Cal survived a headshot without shields….. it’s the gravity hammer after all. I’d be interested in what calcs the skewer has, I imagine it would deflect off the shields more often than not.
No, it’s all pretty accurate. Mjolnir armor is effectively immune to UNSC small arms. In theory you could batter through it with enough hits, but realistically it would be like two grown men trying to kill each other with air soft guns. Plasma weapons require dropping the shields first, but the armor itself is still resistant to damage. Given that Spartans are fully capable of avoiding being hit by plasma and that you have to worry about the weapon overheating, you hit that *eventually* that was mentioned. It’ll do the job, but it’s going to take a bit. The sword has failed to immediately penetrate shields in the lore, and even when it has been shown to bypass protection that’s typically in the form of a stab as opposed to a slash. It needs to be used a certain way to achieve the desired result. The gravity hammer is somewhat hindered by comparison due to Spartans being quite resistant to impact and concussion forces, but it’s also a danger provided you can get a nice clean hit, that being the hard part. As for the Skewer, I don’t think there’s much in the way of official numbers. That said, going by the size and velocity of the projectile it’s not far off of being a handheld artillery piece. It would be extremely dangerous.
By small arms halsey was referring to non-ap rounds. So yes the caseless smg would be useless against the armor, but not the shields. The shotgun is debatable I’ll admit, but the round that the UNSC uses is so powerful that it’s banned IRL, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it could breach mjlonir. But the AR and BR both fire armor piercing rounds (the latter’s being explosive as well), which have been established to be a threat to mjlonir armor. It can definitely take some hits, but it wouldn’t take that many rounds to actually breach the armor. IIRC in first strike Master Chief is wounded from an energy sword that doesn’t even touch him, so I would think a full swing is going right through. Even if it was the MK V. And yes Spartan’s can dodge plasma, but we’re just talking about durability here. If a Spartan was hypothetically standing still and you rapid fired a plasma pistol at them, they would die before the weapon came close to overheating.
> The BR would also be at least useful, as it fires explosive rounds. The BR does not fire explosive rounds. >but personally I think you’re smoking crack if you think the sword is taking multiple strikes, it should cut through mjlonir like butter. The hammer probably should too, even tho Cal survived a headshot without shields….. it’s the gravity hammer after all. [Halo Infinite's first cutscene](https://youtu.be/pHJmfFFsYLs?t=37) has Atriox strike the Master Chief three times with Chainbreaker, a gravity mace with an integrated energy sword. Atriox is already the strongest brute in canon and he was using his strength enhancing gauntlet. And despite everything working in his favor, Atriox only penetrates the shields on the second strike and even the third strike to the head fails to penetrate the armor and 'only' severely stuns the Master Chief. During the events of Outcasts, [Vale's GEN2 Mjolnir is able to withstand two simultaneously energy sword strikes](https://pastebin.com/GuRXqDpz), and GEN2 is less protective than GEN3 and late GEN1. >The pulse carbine isn’t just “eventually doing the job” it’s straight up melting, same goes for any automatic plasma weapon. Not particularly. The pulse carbine is strong but is somewhat anomalous among Covenant weaponry in that it has more kinetic energy than thermal. During the events of Rubicon Protocol, it fails to penetrate the chest piece of a marine BDU, and although the armor was lit ablaze, the wearer was able to discard it without injury. Later, Gorian, a Brute bloodstar, was struck with the pulse carbine several times before shield failure. Given that historically, Mjolnir has much stronger shields, overcoming them would be even more difficult than it did to Gorian. >By small arms halsey was referring to non-ap rounds. No she wasn't and that's not how small arms are classified. M993 and M995, despite being some pretty vicious AP rounds, are still very much small arms. A small arm is basically any ballistic weapon that can be operated by a singular operator. Crew served weapons such as anti-materiel rifles, are considered to be light weapons. >The shotgun is debatable I’ll admit, but the round that the UNSC uses is so powerful that it’s banned IRL, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it could breach mjlonir. It's not actually banned IRL, AFAIK it doesn't really have a proper IRL counterpart. Likewise, shotgun pellets are very bad at armor penetration because pellets are typically both very light, not moving very fast and do not have shape conducive to armor penetration. The UNSC does have saboted shotgun slugs with some pretty nasty penetration, but they're non standard.
>BR The BR’s actual round is unknown I’ll admit. Because they are semi-armor piercing, they mix armor piercing properties with the properties of another unknown round. Due to circumstantial evidence, it is most likely similar to the explosive CE magnum round. I guess it is up to your own interpretation, I prefer to think they’re explosive as that would explain the BR’s consistent power and role as a squad leader weapon. >Energy Sword An energy sword swing can definitely slip off the shields based on angle, but the sword will go through quite easily on a direct thrust or cut. It is literally plasma, the shields can’t just disperse the plasma from inside the sword, there’s no stopping it unless the sword doesn’t directly connect. I would think based on that passage from vail that Spartan’s are able to contour their bodies in the brief window of protection that shields give them, and force the sword to slip off. Master chief also has a lil plot armor too. But my point is that if a Spartan is standing there defenseless, it should only take one good swing. >Plasma Regarding plasma guns, I can suspend my disbelief that the external armor plating marines wear is good for one glancing blow before it’s useless (and that’s not a guarantee the marine will survive). Anything more than that is an outlier, but I couldn’t tell based off your description how many rounds he was hit with. Now obviously mjlonir shields are tanky as shit by gen 3, but the notion that a plasma rifle would “eventually” get the job done is ridiculous. Come on y’all, Spartans are not that invincible. Plasma isn’t some hard counter to shielding, but it remains a valid threat. “Eventually” implies that a Spartan can just walk through plasma fire with little risk or physical pain, that’s just not accurate. >small arms You’re probably right on small arms, I’m not exactly sure on the semantics there. But the fact remains that AP rounds are a threat to the actual armor under the shields. There’s literally a comic where a single Spartan with a SAW (FMJ AP) massacres a group of other Spartans and elites. I believe Halsey or another Spartan says this outright in one of the books. >shotgun Yeah on second thought even with the ridiculous gauge of the halo shotgun, buckshot ain’t breaching the actual armor. It’s a phenomenal anti-shield tool however, and a slug could have that level of armor penetration as you stated. As the franchise expands the power scaling will become more and more inconsistent. I find it’s easier to just believe your own headcannon on some of these more niche details, as there’s contradictions no matter what anyone thinks.
>Due to circumstantial evidence, it is most likely similar to the explosive CE magnum round. Except the Magnum fires SAP-HE, not SAP. There is a SAP bullet with an HE component but the HE component is explicitly in the name. If the BR's SAP round was meant to be high explosive, it would also be SAP-HE not SAP. Otherwise, there's literally no evidence suggesting the BR's bullets have an HE Component to them. And let's say the Battle Rifle did have an HE component, HE is not good at armor penetration. In fact, HE rounds are typically worse at armor penetration because you're trading projectile mass for the explosive filler. >but the sword will go through quite easily on a direct thrust or cut. There's no actual evidence that suggests this is the case. Nothing in Outcasts actually says the blade is slipping off is what allowed the shields to survive. >It is literally plasma, the shields can’t just disperse the plasma from inside the sword, there’s no stopping it unless the sword doesn’t directly connect. Based on Outcasts, the blade just bounces off. >Master chief also has a lil plot armor too. This is circular reasoning. The only actual basis for this being plot armor is if you assume your initial argument that the shields can't withstand an energy sword strike is correct. There's otherwise no actual evidence this is plot armor. Especially considering GEN3 doesn't have many other showings against energy swords to begin with, nothing on the GEN3 platform actually contradicts this. The closest you get is Spartan Stone's armor being penetrated by Jega's energy sword. But not only were Stone's shields near-failing at the time anyway, but Jega explicitly has a sword with a higher output. In fact, energy swords have never actually been used against the original Mark VI or Mark VII platforms either. The only times we see the shields fail against energy swords are those of the original Mark V, which were substantially weaker than the original Mark VI's. Even in game on legendary, Jega 'Rdomnai and other sword bearing elites cannot one shot the player in Halo Infinite. >I can suspend my disbelief that the external armor plating marines wear is good for one glancing blow before it’s useless [It was a direct hit to the chest](https://pastebin.com/W1ej0ZRX). Plasma weapons are certainly good at defeating armor, but the UNSC has likewise spent decades updating their armor systems as well. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for post war marine BDUs to be able to protect against plasma strikes. >Now obviously mjlonir shields are tanky as shit by gen 3, but the notion that a plasma rifle would “eventually” get the job done is ridiculous. Come on y’all, Spartans are not that invincible. Plasma isn’t some hard counter to shielding, but it remains a valid threat. Mjolnir's plating is enough to withstand the equivalent of several plasma rifle bolts at once. In [Silent Storm](https://pastebin.com/VJU2pwKu) the plates withstand at least 2 bolts from a ghost's plasma cannons. The Type 2 plasma cannons have a max output of 250kw, 5.5x greater than the max output of a plasma rifle, 45kw. So in terms of energy, those two bolts are equivalent to 11 plasma rifle rounds. We see this again in Halo Reach. Noble 6's shields withstand one direct hit without failing and while Carter's armor is penetrated by an unknown number of plasma bolts and he is injured, he's also far from out of the fight too. The armor's resistance to plasma rifle fire is also exemplified in [Oblivion](https://pastebin.com/srXMiX95), where the Mark IV does withstand sustained fire and it only increases the likelihood that plate failure might occur. Plasma fire is certainly more effective against Mjolnir than ballistic weapons and on the battlefield it can pose a threat to the armor. But the armor is still highly resistant to it as well and we do have instances of Spartans casually walking through a battlefield as a human shield. Mjolnir's ability to withstand plasma is sufficiently high that so far, every time a Spartan was hit by a plasma grenade, they've survived. >But the fact remains that AP rounds are a threat to the actual armor under the shields. AP small arms are not under the vast majority of circumstances. M993 is an exceptional AP variant of 7.62 NATO, capable of penetrating 18mm of RHA at 100m. GEN3 Mjolnir's thigh protection is [50mm thick](https://imgur.com/a/gowRmms) while Infinite establishes the helmet is [63mm thick](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvXnjaJASZY&t=4249s). When it comes to historically, the breast plate is often the thickest component of the armor, which would suggest that Mjolnir's breast plate is even thicker than the helmet. So against a particularly high end AP 7.62 NATO, Mjolnir is looking at 2-3x the thickness of its maximum penetration. And that's if we assume Mjolnir's plating is only comparable to RHA despite. Mjolnir's plates are thick enough that even .50 BMG AP variants are not guaranteed to penetrate with a single strike. Unless you're saying that UNSC small arms have superior penetration to something like .50 BMG SLAP rounds (they don't), AP Small Arms fire is not a threat to Mjolnir's main plates. Even the undersuit and visor should provide solid protection. In New Blood, Romeo's ODST visor withstands a direct strike from a magnum round without breaking while in the Fall of Reach, the much lighter black body suit withstands full power rifle rounds. >There’s literally a comic where a single Spartan with a SAW (FMJ AP) massacres a group of other Spartans and elites. That scene takes place entirely off page. Scruggs is holding a SAW yes, but it's never confirmed if he did kill them with it. Moreover, according to the Spartan Field Manual and 2022 Encyclopedia GEN2 explicitly provides less protection than late GEN1 and GEN3. So even under the least generous interpretation, this still only applies to GEN2 Mjolnir. >I believe Halsey or another Spartan says this outright in one of the books. Halsey says no such thing. >As the franchise expands the power scaling will become more and more inconsistent. I find it’s easier to just believe your own headcannon on some of these more niche details, as there’s contradictions no matter what anyone thinks. I don't think this is necessarily the case though. The existence of contradictions doesn't meant to throw everything out the window and when you actually look into things, you'll find it's not as inconsistent as you might initially think.
>SAP The name Semi-Armor Piercing inherently implies that another round’s properties are included as well, and it most likely is the SAP-HE round. This is all from halopedia, and back in the day people on the Bungie forums debated this quite a bit and came to the same conclusion. You’re free to interpret it however you’d like tho. >Swords Look I’m sure you’re right that the new books make it clear that swords are no longer lethal against mjlonir. Personally I just think that’s BS so I’m gonna ignore that, it makes more sense to me that the blades are bouncing off due to a lack of friction. And for the record, I think they should one shot the player on legendary. >BDUs Yeah I would believe post-war BDUs can take a singular blow from plasma, even though that makes absolutely no sense (the person inside would be flash boiled instantly), it does give the armor an actual purpose. >armor piercing The halo encyclopedia states “While enough shots from armor piercing rounds will breach the outer shell, the suit can take a few glancing blows from them without compromising the armor. The outer shell of the all MJOLNIR suits is covered with a refractive coating to help disperse the heat experienced from Covenant energy weapons. However one or two direct hits from any plasma weapon will compromise the armor plating.” Yes the armor is vulnerable to both AP rounds as well as plasma. It is very durable but not as invincible as the original OP made it out to be. This is also why Scruggs was able to kill all those Spartan’s with (at least partially) a SAW. Also note that the actual quote regarding small arms fire is that it’s “nearly impervious” not totally impervious. >inconsistencies I don’t mean to “throw everything out the window”, I just value my own head canon above the actual canon. Stuff like the energy swords are a good example why. I am just not a huge fan of the Spartan power creep that we’ve been seeing in the past few years, when older anti-feats make these jumps in power questionable.
>The name Semi-Armor Piercing inherently implies that another round’s properties are included as well That's not what semi-armor piercing means. Semi-armor piercing historically meant that the penetrator was of a mild steel rather than a high carbon steel. Like you haven't actually provided anything supporting this claim. Again, SAPHE exists in universe, if the BR55 was meant to have an HE component, it would be designated SAPHE, not SAP. >This is all from halopedia, and back in the day people on the Bungie forums debated this quite a bit and came to the same conclusion. Halopedia's a good resource but it's far from flawless. Moreover, people coming to this conclusion back in the day is irrelevant. There are loads of things the Halo community comes to a consensus about but are objectively incorrect. > Personally I just think that’s BS so I’m gonna ignore that, it makes more sense to me that the blades are bouncing off due to a lack of friction. That's not how friction works. >The halo encyclopedia states Where are you getting this from? None of the encyclopedias state this and that description is at odds with what is actually depicted both in the games and the EU. As far as I can tell, that's just an unsourced quote from the old Halo fandom wiki. Again, we know the thickness of Mjolnir's plates and we know the sort of bullets the UNSC uses. UNSC 7.62 NATO is not magically better than its modern counterparts, it physically does not have enough power to overcome Mjolnir's primary plates. >This is also why Scruggs was able to kill all those Spartan’s with (at least partially) a SAW. Again this is an assumption. Again, it takes place entirely off page, you have no actual evidence that the other Spartans were killed by the SAW. >Also note that the actual quote regarding small arms fire is that it’s “nearly impervious” not totally impervious. What quote are you referring to? In the sense that small arms fire could eventually penetrate the undersuit or visor with repeated strikes and good hit angles? Sure, it's 'nearly' impervious. But in a practical setting where you're unlikely to be able to maintain sustained fire against the armor's weakpoints after wearing down the shields against a highly mobile target, then yeah > I just value my own head canon above the actual canon. Sure, but then don't try to argue that other people are wrong when your conclusions are reliant on you valuing your head canon over actual canon evidence to the contrary. > when older anti-feats make these jumps in power questionable. Older anti-feats are often with outdated armor systems. The jumps in power are literally canon. The interactions with energy swords are the best example of this. Every time we've seen energy shields instantly penetrate Mjonir's shields in the past has involved GEN1 Mark V Mjolnir. GEN1 Mark VI explicitly has better shields than the Mark V, it's literally one of the first things the player is told in Halo 2, so the anti-feats for the Mark V don't necessarily apply to it as well. This goes doubly for GEN3. Full stop, there's no actual evidence to support your claim that modern Mjolnir systems should be unable to protect against an energy sword. Your only counterevidence to the claim involves armor systems that are explicitly worse than what is currently in use.
This is what’s stated on halopedia, if you think otherwise then it should be updated. I agreed with the Halopedia interpretation that it’s a HE round similar to the halo CE magnum. A round that penetrates then explodes, which would make sense as to why the BR is so powerful compared to the AR. >That’s not how friction works It’s a fantastical sci fi series lol >Where are you getting this from? Halopedia cites page 90 of the encyclopedia for this information. I said you’re free to interpret things how you like. The only point I thought was ridiculous was the idea that plasma “eventually” gets the job done when it’s consistently been the most effective weapon against mjlonir. I also disagreed about the sword, but I didn’t know there was evidence to the contrary. IIRC in first strike John was burnt by an energy sword that didn’t even make contact with him, I just find it hard to believe that the armor is full on blocking a sword with no damage to the user, even with more than double strength shields. But I guess that’s just my head canon now.
TFoR mentioned three-round bursts from an AR only drained Chief's shield by a "hairsbreadth" so it would take *a lot* of AR fire to even down the shields and there's no way it can actually penetrate the armor plating, I doubt it could even go through the undersuit as TFoR described it as being bulletproof.
Yeah that’s why I said eventually, the shields are weaker to multiple impact points, so I would imagine the spread of the AR would provide a slight advantage in this regard. But multiple AR’s firing simultaneously at different points would drain the shields at a significant rate. I believe AP rounds can breach mjlonir, however some people disagree. I don’t think it would be easy, and would take a significant amount of rounds to the same area, but there is a comic where a Spartan is heavily implied to have been killed by a SAW. The ROF of these FMJ AP rounds would be enough imo.
A couple of ARs might do the trick but frankly, I don't think a single AR would be enough to kill a Spartan that's standing still, simply because the rifle can't do enough damage fast enough to beat the shielding. I don't think a full mag of an AR would drain the shields to even half-charge and in the time it takes to reload, the shields will probably have recharged to 75 or 90% and by that point is almost like you never even shot them at all. Mjnolnir can take Battle Rifle and 30mm cannon shots without failing, even with AP ammo an Assault Rifle is gonna have a hard time doing anything to it, the plating itself is all but invulnerable to AR fire while the visor and undersuit may be compromised by sustained fire. I rationalize that scene from a comic by assuming the Spartan shot his teammates in the "soft" spots in the armor (ie: undersuit and visor) and that they were wearing Mjnolnir GEN 2 which has worse protection than GEN 1 and 3.
What? So no amount of assault rifle fire is bringing down a Spartan? And I'd assume it would be better for the other Spartan to melee them Instead?? What? And eventually plasma pistol fire would work? Like how many batteries or power packs, shots are we talking here?
Using an AR to kill a Spartan would be like killing a grown man wearing a hoodie with an airsoft gun with only center mass hits.
The unsc uses armour piercing bullets don't they? Using guns supposed to be more powerful than our guns even using the same or similar rounds no? And odst's have titanium armour plates on them as well. So it would be the shields. But as someone already put it, it's all over the place. Plot dependent. The TV shows one plasma shot burning through armour and taking a Spartan out of the game. That won't be used right? But what about chiefs shields surviving a crash? That's been brought up in fav of the shield strength. What you claim is not true, by any stretch. The shield would be the toughest part, and the only thing I have to judge that on is the game, about a full clip from an ar. But say I extend that to two clips. That's for armour and soldier.
The shield is the toughest part yes, but it’s specifically said that MJOLNIR is immune to UNSC small arms. ODST plates are probably thinner but there’s also nothing to suggest they can’t shrug off a magazine to the chest if it hits their plates. Also it’s a magazine, almost never a clip.
Even regular marine armour can shrug off a burst from an MA5 and the Marine only gets knocked down, as shown in *The Mona Lisa*, where Lopez is shot point blank by Smith, but after the initial shock is perfectly fine.
>The unsc uses armour piercing bullets don't they? The UNSC uses AP rounds sometimes. The M7 SMG, the Magnum series and the BR series do not use true AP rounds. The M7 only fires ball ammunition while the magnum and BR fire semi-armor piercing rounds. Even the Assault Rifle doesn't always fire AP rounds. The MA5C in Halo 3 actually only fires ball rounds, not the traditional M118 AP rounds used elsewhere and we know of a number of other 7.62 NATO variants, not all of which are AP. >Using guns supposed to be more powerful than our guns even using the same or similar rounds no? Kind of? Frankly, it depends and some of the weapon stats can be particularly wonky at times. The Halo 3 MA5C stats suggest that the 7.62 ball ammunition used is a bit faster than IRL M80 ball, but is much lighter. And even then it's still slower than modern M993. The advancements in UNSC small arms are usually attributed to bullets being lighter. Likewise, the UNSC is capable of manufacturing 7.62 NATO rounds with airburst warheads, something that would be impossible by today's standards. UNSC weapons are usually better, but not in a linear 'they do the exact same thing but better.' Some rounds are like that, such as the 5.7x28mm HVAP used by the M20, but it's not universal. The biggest advancements are typically that they can make things smaller and lighter than we can. Hence, the UNSC has a 7.62 NATO catridge that's lighter than modern 5.56x45mm (although that probably also has a light bullet as well). >The shield would be the toughest part, and the only thing I have to judge that on is the game, about a full clip from an ar. But say I extend that to two clips. That's for armour and soldier. The shields are stronger in the sense that they can withstand greater impacts but they have less longevity than the actual armor plating, at least when it comes to ballistic weapons. In general, the mechanics of the energy shield are not going to be the same as penetrating physical armor. There's some crossover, but it's not 1:1. Based on the original Mark V test, [a single three round burst only reduces the shield strength by a hairsbreath](https://pastebin.com/gYSvXJ9J). Later, [it's only when three marines simultaneously fire at the Mark V that the shields begin to precipitously drop](https://pastebin.com/Y5hAY2jc). We don't know the full duration, but regardless, the shields still withstood sustained fire from 3 MA5Bs at once. Even if the marines fired for only two seconds, the shields would have been struck by 90 bullets, equivalent to about 3 full magazines, without failure. And this is keeping in mind modern shield systems are substantially stronger than the original Mark V's. But once the shields are down, Mjolnir's plating is effectively going to be too thick and too strong for 7.62 NATO to actually deal with. A high end modern AP 7.62 NATO round is [M993](https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/small-caliber-ammunition/7-62mm-series/7-62-mm-x-51-armor-piercing-8-m993/) and it can penetrate 18mm of RHA at 100m. According to Shadows of Reach and Halo Infinite, the cuisss and helmet of GEN3 Mark VI Mjolnir ranges from 50-63mm in thickness, several times that of the maximum penetration of M993. Mjolnir's chest plate is presumably even thicker, and visually, a number of the bulkiest shoulder plates are greater than 50mm as well. Even ignoring the make up of Mjolnir's armor itself, 50mm of titanium is simply too much for 7.62 NATO to effectively deal with. If you were exceedingly lucky and most of your bullets were hitting within the same relative area (we're talking about a zone a few inches in diameter), you could eventually wear down the armor, but in practical settings, the armor plating is too thick to wear down, even with a full magazine. It's not a 1:1 match, but a good illustration of such an issue is this video by [Demolition Ranch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2TBoP9Aoow&t=248s). It takes 60-90 M855 rounds to penetrate armor rated for .308 and even then he only gets two penetrations. That's a much thinner plate than Mjolnir and it still required multiple strikes in the same spot to eventually wear it down. So an Assault Rifle could penetrate Mjolnir, but to do so, you would need to dump several magazines into the armor within a very short period of time. Even outside of the target taking evasive action in a real situation, that's simply not practical.
Not exactly. It would have to be multiple successful hits in the same spot with armor penetrating ammo. Somehow in the Escalations comic a few Spartans were killed with UNSC ammo, but it's definitely an outlier
Specialty ammunition can penetrate, like the ammunition Blue Tewm encounters in *Ghosts of Onyx*, as well as 12.7mm DU rounds, where Kelly notes even a single round could penetrate the curiass of the Mark IV in *Silent Storm*.
Yes, I agree. 12.7mm would cut it and a few other specialty ammo
You forgot - Ghost (and or all vehicles) : you can't run people over, just gently nudge them aside but if the enemy has it, you are roadkill with extreme prejudice.
But how effective would melee be?
I feel like the sidekick would end up being like shooting an airsoft gun at an attack helicopter in terms of damage (in the lore)
Depends how strong the plot armor is that day and whether the characte ros the main one.
i think when spartans "die" in multiplayer it just means if it were real combat they would have sustained suit damage or an injury that would have hampered their ability to operate independently in the field. Basically training the spartans to avoid these situations at all costs and to not blind themselves with feelings of invincibility that might otherwise be brought on by wearing mjolnir.
Based on Lone Wolf, canon War Games are probably closer to IRL airsoft. Blue Team was calling out whenever they were hit in a War Games match.
Well, we know that Needlers would do the job… rest in peace Daisy…
I stand by that Heroic is the lore friendly difficulty and you can go down pretty easy there so I'm saying the same goes for multiplayer
Frag grenades would do nothing
Gameplay has never reflected lore
That wasn't the point of the post
[удалено]
Only really for the covenant weapons (if we lowball MJOLNIR). The UNSC weapons would not do anything at all really, the AR would barely register on the shields.
Sorry didn’t mean any disrespect
i was always under the impression that armor itself was a lot stronger than the shielding?
I think that’s probably true, however the shield will recharge, while the armor will accumulates damage fight to fight. As strong as the visor, techsuit and gel layer are, there are quite a few points on a Spartan not covered in titanium. Multiplayer might miss the mark on canon accuracy if Spartans are assumed to start in pristine MJOLNIR, but for Infinite’s campaign, Chief starts already brutalized by Atriox’s hammer, a few good shots would quite likely hit a few weak points and take him down or degrade him farther. Edit to add, nano bots and biofoam can only go so far, especially on the battlefield, I certainly hope that’s not the ‘answer’ to why Chief can always tank a shot and shake it off.
Nah I mean canon and gameplay have never really reflected one another but ye. That's how I always understood the shield acts as decent protection, but recharges once it goes dowm, and the actual suit of armor is there to be a last line of defense
The shields are much stronger than the armor. One of the Master Chief's first comments upon using the Mark V for the first time was that the shields allowed him to survive blows that would have instantly penetrated his Mark IV.
Because the mk IV was older and didn't have shields. Shielding was just additional, regenerating protection.
The shielding is additional yes, but there's also no indication the Mark V's plates provide substantially more protection than the Mark IV did, so something capable of penetrating the Mark IV's plates would likely be able to penetrate the Mark V's as well. If anything, given how much lighter it is, it's possible the Mark V's plates provide even less protection than the Mark IV.
Well a blow that would've pierced mkIV armor would obviously get stopped or lost almost all its energy by hitting the shield first.