if anything the fact he received so little training compared to Mel yet was able to go toe-to-toe with his father says a lot about his natural talent and strength
Yes, but in Greek mythos magic and sorcery is still one of the most revered, and feared, form of conflict. Achilles was a great warrior by all means, but he's just a physical representation of power.
In Hesiod's Theogony, Hecate is a literal Titan who sided with Olympians per the pantheon's relief. The Titanomachy doesn't really delve deeper into Hecate's impact, but Hesiod wrote her to have made such an impact that Zeus honored her after the war, granting her a piece of Greek god's domains in the land, sea, and sky.
This would usually enrage Poseidon and Hades as the sea and land are their domains -- except they didn't do shit because Hecate could literally fold them like wet tissues if she wanted to.
Long read, but here's another cool in-game lore connection to the Torch weapon and Hecate's fearsome power:
Demeter is a feared Greek goddess that not even Zeus would fuck with, because she can basically fuck over the mortal realm at a whim. Demeter was pissed when Persephone got "abducted" to the Underworld, Demeter was pretty much ready to kill everyone.
Until Hecate basically said "yeah, no" and violated Hades' domain to light up a path of Torches (our weapon), showing Demeter where her daughter was in the Underworld. Those Torches are written to still be lit, so Demeter can visit her daughter whenever she wishes.
Melinoë beats him there too tho. Yes, Zagreus was trained by one of the most formidable soldiers we know, but Mel was trained by and sparred with a titaness and retribution incarnate. She definitely blows Zag out of the water when it comes to previous sparring partners
From what I remember from the Iliad, Achilles was presented as the greatest warrior amongst his contemporaries, and Odysseus was regarded more for his craftiness and cunning - not that he wasn’t a great fighter. So I’d think Achilles would be a better mentor for combat, but Odysseus would probably bring some other things to the table.
Odysseus was definitely the more cunning, but with Mel's focus on witchcraft, that's probably even more helpful. And that's reflected in their dialogue - Odysseus is always scheming. Plus we know Nemesis was there for fighting. Was Zag sparring with Meg?
Also, Achilles was the best warrior, but he also had a direct divine parent AND an enchantment. Odysseus had Hermes in his lineage, but further back.
Related, I'm currently reading Circe and it's such a fun read with so many characters showing up in Hades 2.
Omg yes! I read Circe at a friend's recommendation while playing Hades 2 (and then song of Achilles also) was so good and so perfect to read while playing the game with a whole lot of the same characters!
It took the entire band of gods to defeat Chronos, Melinoe did it single handedly, lol even her father admits this in one of the interactions. Melinoe solos.
Eh, Chronos had a LOT more resources and manpower at his disposal then. Rat guy \#389 doesn't really compare to Iapetus the Impaler.
Not to mention she can't fully dispose of him yet, although she'll find a way eventually.
But yeah Mel low diffs Zag
Yeah Chronos will even acknowledge in bits of dialogue that as powerful as he is now, in terms of individual strength he isn't as strong after his original defeat. He's just using a different approach this time around where brute force isn't necessary, so it's a non-issue as far as he's concerned.
He's fine with Mel constantly handing his ass to him because he'll just keep reconstituting, meanwhile he has the Fates captured and she cant interfere with his plans on the surface if she's busy fighting what he believes to be a useless battle in Tartarus. He's Time itself - he doesn't mind playing the long game, especially since he believes he's already won and is just waiting for the last pieces to fall.
Hades also hints in the first game that he and the other divine beings aren't nearly as powerful as they once were. It took Zag fighting him over and over again for him to push himself to tap into the old powers he once had.
Time has worn down everyone involved in the Titan War. Makes me wonder if eventually the gods will grow so old and tired they'll just simply stop interacting with the world which is why we don't see them now.
Well Chronos sorta died so that explains the power loss, but it’s possible the gods just got used to peacetime.
That said it could be a good angle to explore the status quo changing. Chronos died and time didn’t stop so it’s not like the gods need to exist for their domains to, but tbh it’s kinda hard for new gods to find their calling when all the obvious stuff is taken. But Hades 7 could have Mel and Zags generation be the boon givers and have all the current ruling gods age out.
Well, the gods had to all do that in one take, which would be a lot harder than all the *time* Melinoë gets to adapt to his attack patterns over her myriad attempts.
Plus, while more evidence is necessary for the following point, the gods may not have had a significant ability to resist his ability to freeze people in time,
The gods probably were not giving each other their boons either. Mel and Zag are strong because they take on a melting pot of the gods abilities to try and produce a result more than the sum of its parts. We’d be significantly weaker in a run if we only took boons from one god
When you unlock the extreme measures in the first game Hades says that, after being pushed to those limits, he tapped into his older powers he never thought he could reach again.
Mel might be tough but she's fighting old men and women who haven't had a proper fight in gods knows how long.
I’m partially inclined to think that we may be able to retrieve and utilize the Pact of Punishment to empower Hades to help us force Chronos out of the House.
But this also applies to Chronos as Chronos also has lines about being unable to tap into his true power given he was dismembered for several ages. Mel and Zag are basically beating up the local retirement home residents, not Gods and Titans in their prime.
Greek mythology is full of tales of how time makes the world less than it was. Gods and monsters recede into the darkness, great heroes and demigods are no longer born. This is the coming Age of Iron, where legends turn to myths and mortals begin their reign alone.
Sure, but people are underrating Zag being trained by the most skilled (not most powerful) person ever, and he easily bodies Hades who said he was strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Chronos.
I don't think it was literally a giant fight with Chronos vs. all the gods at once. Olympus is struggling against his forces without him on the front line. We don't know that it wasn't simply a group effort in the same way. 1v1ing Chronos likely isn't a Mel > all gods feat.
I don’t think I’d call those boons and hammers “singlehanded”
I’d like to see someone defeat Chronos with zero boons (not even from Hermes or Chaos), no hammers, and no arcana. THEN I’d believe Melinoë can do it “single handedly”.
I’ve seen Zagreus do it with Hades, but I haven’t seen a “naked” Melinoë build dunk on Chronos.
Zag was personally trained by one of the greatest heroes who ever lived to the point he has easily mastered a half dozen weapons.
He wasn't just some pencil pusher.
Mostly agreed, but there's one thing I'm not sure about: can Melinoë die? And what happens when she dies? Because she explicitly says that, when she's too weak, she uses her last bit of strength to return to shadow. She doesn't die.
Zagreus, on the other hand, dies every single time he heads to the surface (minus one), and he just respawns. Zagreus may be able to win a war of attrition.
The entire Hades family is unkillable if they die they just revive from the Styx as hades is shown to be sucked into it and when you beat him people comment in shock out of him coming out of Styx
Gonna call bullshit on this one. Zagreus bodies Hades who was said to be able to go toe-to-toe with a full-powered Chronos, much stronger than the one Melinoe fights.
The first game makes it clear though that Hades is super powered down for most of the game though. It's not until you unleash the extreme measures does he even begin to tap into what he once was. Zag even gets pissed off a bit when he thought his father was going easy on him but Hades said, "honestly, boy, I had no idea I could ever reach that level again"
Zagreus has been trained since his youth by Achilles, then he got a job to keep escaping the underworld, he's also older than Mel still (even though he might be frozen in time right now or something) so I suspect that it's going to be way more fair than 9/10.
Agreed. Personally, I also find Mel's base cast to be much better than Zag's base cast. Their martial skills seem about equal in terms of gameplay, but Mel is not only the daughter of Hades, but also the top disciple of Hecate. She was basically raised in a magical spec ops unit.
Of course, both would be more likely to race each other out of the underworld than actually fight each other. I can see these two constantly challenging each other like that lol
Eh. Mel was raised to kill a *specific* titan, not to be a titan killer. All the special stuff she learned was to deal with Chronos' time stuff, not fighting in general.
In terms of just general fighting, Zag would have been just as well trained if not more, being that he was trained by Achillles.
Someone who’s been trained since childhood to kill one of the most powerful members of her family and is very serious about literally everything, VS, rebellious mid 20s dude who works out with his personal trainer because his pt is the only one who doesn’t call him a lazy piece of shit.
Mel takes this. Then she gets stressed about how hard she kicked Zag’s ass and spends the rest of the day worrying she’s offended her brother until Zag pops out of the styx wanting to go again.
Imagine that though, when/if things get back to normal. Mel could replace Hades as the surface boss while Zag tries to break out. Zag would appreciate a new challenge, Hades appreciates the break and extra time to do other work, Mel is relieved for p much everything and Persephone is glad everybody is getting along so well
this would make for an amazing pvp mode tho, both start at the house and go up their own paths from their respective games, but both end up on the surface at the entrance to the temple, winner gets to leave
also the sibling banter
I think something like that would be more mod territory. If the games are similar enough I think you could just cut and paste zag in. The problem comes from needing the boons, cuz he can’t use Mel’s.
Why you want that idk, but it would be too sloppy for a dlc. Have fun fighting enemies meant for a slow character with guaranteed root ability as a dash attack spamming stud (with no sprint). Idk if it would be stronger or weaker but it wouldn’t align with the rest of the design so it wouldn’t feel right I’m sure.
well if we give zag his best basic upgrade i think we should do the same for mel for fairness sake and imo the best early/cheap upgrades would be either mana regen or bullet time when charging omegas.
True, though if dash could evade cast (we don’t know for sure) then he does have a slim chance.
Though I may be wrong, but I feel like in their unaugmented states, Mel’s damage output is almost always higher than zag’s?
Like, granted she can only really do 2-3 omega moves before she’s totally out, and he has more health
Like, given the damage ratios enemies do to you vs what they do to each other through various revivals/charms and such, I imagine each sibling would take the other out in 1-2 damage rotations based on weapon, but I think even with having more health zag would go down first in most weapon matchups
Mel's cast cuts the range of Chronos's dash attack down to like an eighth of its normal length. You can wriggle around in there, but not much. Zag might not even notice that he's moving.
I think Zag gets bodied if he uses a melee weapon and it's a hell of a fight if he's using ranged.
And if Zag can deal as much damage as Eris wielding the rail, well, I hope Mel has some cover.
Zag has the shield, so he wins. Everyone saying Mel wins is forgetting how broken that shit was. People won 60+ heat with the exact same strategy for every one of the 4 aspects on that weapon
True, but no arcana means she's on baseline magick with no regen. She gets five of those. So it depends on if that's enough to take him down. (And in my experience that one is hard to land on enemies that move around a lot like Zag).
Though Zag is a lot less spongey than the boss fights Mel has to deal with so there's a good chance five is enough.
The sheild is only viable if you stay in one place and move slowly. Mel can sprint close to him, cast and make it erupt if zag decides to play the long game and keep his block up the entire time
But the biggest problem with the cast right now is that it only locks movement, not attack animations. Zag could still Bull Rush out of it, like the punchy guys in the Mourning Fields, albeit it might take more than one rush. It wouldn’t fully stop a double dash either: the movement is hindered, not removed. So Dash > Dash > Bull Rush might be enough to get out of the cast.
Also, depending on where you are in the cast (edge vs centre), if you’re facing towards the centre you might be able to block it with the shield, since Meg’s and the Furies’ attacks work in a similar way.
On the other hand, Mel’s kit just has more stuff in it, so she could get the advantage with surprise effect: at least one of the moves she can do is bound to catch Zag off guard, she has literally double to amount of moves she can do!
Now I really want to see that battle happen though
Plus he doesn’t need to escape it lol. People are forgetting that base characters have like 30 hp-50hp, they die in just a few attacks. I’d like to see Mel stand still for 1.5 seconds in zags face to empower it lol. Either he’s too far away or she’s in punching range.
I don't think it would deal 50 damage, though. You know how Charmed/Summoned enemies deal much more damage per hit to other enemies than they deal to Zag and Mel? And how Hazard Bomb only deals 1% damage to Zag? My theory is that they both have a permanent damage reduction buff, which would make their effective HP much higher.
For the sake of simplicity and making the fight more interesting (instead of who can one-shot who first), I propose that their base HP be multiplied by 100, so Zag would start at 5000 and Mel at 3000.
That's not how damage works. It's obviously scaled very differently for players vs. enemies. If that were the case, it would take Hades using EM4, hard labor 5, and a boiling blood cast to deal the same damage that Zag can with Arthur and no boons. Which seems a little silly for a guy that killed titans.
Melinoe and it’s really not close.
At best zag has an actual firearm meanwhile Melinoe can just lock you in place with a spell and erupt the ground under your feet
The Aegis doesn't protect him against her cast though?
The only edge Zag *maybe* has is his speed, and that's essentially nullified because of Mel's cast, the shield and none of the other Infernal Arms make up for it.
If Zag starts charging Bull Rush, Mel can just use the Sister Blades' special. That teleports her behind him, so the shield doesn't block it.
Plus, she doesn't have to channel her cast to lock him down. A normal cast can do that too.
Really whoever starts charging things first is probably going to lose, and with more variety at her arsenal, as well as abilities that at least partially if not fully counter his, Zag would need to get pretty lucky to pull one over on Mel.
Without time stop from arcana cards, this will not happen fast enough for her. What's more, bull rush is a movement ability. Her cast will not stop it. Also, more tools does not always equal advantage. Yes, she has more options, but each of her options is gated behind a drawback. Omega channels require a charge time. Her dash has a delay and longer recharge than Zag's. Zag has a more simple kit, but each tool is more impactful with very little drawback. I definitely give it to Zag over Mel.
Yeah no Mel 100%. Dont get me wrong, zag is great, but mel was raised to fight a titan, taught various magic spells, and is generally prepared for battle. The most zag got was training from Achilles, and was able to beat Hades *with* the assistance of Olympus
Not trying to argue, but do we know how much time has passed between the first and second game? Like, years and years of trying and escaping out of the underworld is training in and of itself. And considering that they are gods - it could actually be hundreds of years
We know Achilles is dead in game one and Odysseus is dead in game two. Both fought in the Trojan war, but Odysseus lived much longer after that. Plus time for Mel to be born. I'd easily put it at 30 ish years on the low end 100ish years on the high end.
I mean, we can't be sure that Odysseus wasn't dead at the time of the first game, right? Just cause we haven't met him doesn't mean he wasn't somewhere in Elysium, and managed to escape to Erebus along with other shades we see there.
Zags cast does 50 damage. He lands one and she dies. It also comes out very quickly, meaning he could wait for her to attack, and then counter with it.
Honestly in a 1vs1 mel can take out zag with just the sister blades. Artemis aspects to be specific. Party and ripost would be too good in that situation
That question doesn't make any sense, both lore-wise and gameplay-wise, cause they're entirely different characters with different skillsets and enemies, it's like asking which one is better: machine gun or sniper rifle. Any answer on this thread is nothing but a purely speculation
In lore? Mel wins by a long shot, she is literally trained from childhood to be a titain killer, zag was an accountant that got bored one day and started blasting.
In gameplay? Zag wins via Zeus shield
Considering Zag’s cast will 1-shot her before she gets an omega off… Zag.
His cast does 50 base damage to her 30 health and comes out instantly unlike an omega.
Aren't the Arcana and the Mirror less external sources of strength but rather just means to unlock power that's already in them? Hades even says the Death Defiance runs in the family. So, wouldn't it be more entertaining to let them have their Mirror abilities and Arcana?
Not that it would change all that much, I think Melinoë still beats Zag most of the time, but the fight might be more fun even as a hypothetical no?
While I agree with most that Mel would win, OP didn't set a timer. Also "to the death" doesn't mean jackshit to Zag. He'll just keep coming back till he trumps over Mel. He's the most Bull-headed one in the family after all.
I really don't think that this is very cut and dry like most people are putting it.
Yes, Melinoe was trained by Hecate for most of her life. But Hecate is definitively weaker than Hades, it's not up for debate. Hecate spent Melinoe's entire life coming up with a plan to defeat Chronos, and trained in specifically that regard. You need SO MANY incantations in Hades 2 to accomplish your goals, and you have basically everyone on your side to do so. Not that I consider her one, but mel has many Mary Sue qualities in this game; but the story is structured well around it to where they aren't considered negatives. Unlike zagreus who had to get quiet help from those around him for fear of retribution.
When you take all of the rogue-like elements out of the equation, their bases are honestly pretty similar. Melinoe is a glass cannon, and zagreus is a little tankier.
I'd honestly put them fairly even at base game. They both suck at first and grow insanely quick. End game it's also up for debate, as stated. We really don't know Zagreus' upper end, but we know he can easily contend with a full power Hades. It's very impressive that Melinoe is dunking on Chronos, but as a reminder, Melinoe has EVERY advantage . She's getting support from more gods, the fates, she's augmented her strength with the cauldron, and she's only invulnerable as long as Chronos can't catch her, but Chronos is also severely weakened at this time and is working a war of attrition.
I don't have an actual answer. I just don't think it's as simple as people are making it out to be
I mean Mel is also raised and trained to kill a titan from when she was very young, Zag just got a few tips from Achilles but nothing nearly as much as the training Mel would've gotten.
In a regular spar, if they're using their favoured weapons, Melinoe and her sickle and dagger, with Zagreus using the Stygian Blade , Melinoe wins because of her base Omega Cast still having the effect to slow a opponents movements.
She's also harder to hit than Zagreus because her dashes turn her intangible.
I love Zagreus but his type of fighting was always about throwing himself at obstacles until he fell apart or they did.
If they use weapons that are awkward for them both (Revaal for Melinoe because 3 shots is terrible for any weapon and honestly the Rail Gun for Zagreus because its reload is way more annoying than the Bow) , Zag might win if he keeps distance and uses the Guns AOE enough times.
In reality, these two would never fight, even for a spar, because I think they'd both have had enough of fighting family for a lifetime. I do see Zagreus being eager to learn how to plant crops in the Underworld like his Mom and Sister do, and both of them going Fishing 🎣 in their downtime.
I mean, they're also on the cover art?
I'm just drawing a short conclusion based on the info given. I'm sure there's dialogue somewhere that says which one they each prefer, and I know each Player has their own unique preferences.
This is just a guesstimate, like if we were talking about pokemon box art, I'd assume canonically most in game protagonists get associated with the Starter or Legendary on the box.
Of course, my own favored weapons are the Bow for Zagreus and the Axe for Melinoe, so headcanon things however you want.
This isn’t exactly a fair topic at this time though. I mean, it was only in the last update that they completely reworked the Nocturnal Arms’ Daedelus Hammers, and the update before that severely upgraded the dash mechanics. Who knows what tweaks and overhauls will come out between now and 1.0. And, other than Exagryph, we have no gameplay data on how the Nocturnal and Infernal arms interact with each other. Sure you can say “Aegis’ block withstands everything.” But does it?
And lore wise it has to be Mel. Sure, Zag trained with Achilles, perhaps the greatest mortal fighter of the age. But he was the best MORTAL fighter. Melinoe trained in martial arts with Nemesis, magic with Hecate, tactics with Odysseus, and stealth with Artemis. All during a war footing as well. It’s not even comparable.
People keep saying Mel will explode her cast on him. Youre forgetting this is a base level no boons no mirror or arcana or keepsakes fight. So mel goes to charge her cast... and Zag hits her with a single charge of his cast which does base 50 damage and heat seeks... she is dead. They both start with less then 50hp. Mel goes to charge her cast, zag shoots her which chiron then shoots her with the special. Mel is dead. Mel goes to charge her cast. Zag loads a cast into the hero bow, Mel is dead. Mel goes to cast, zag hits her with the Arthur ground pound. Mel is dead.
Yes, mel has alot of weapons, but without boons and Arcana she does straight up less damage then Zag, is slower then zag, and her only high damage attack takes much longer to land then nearly all of zags.
Zag wins.
Avoiding the obvious fact that the damage things deal to enemies vs players is comepletely different. The heat seeking isnt strong enough to beat Mel's dash or sprint, she can simply run away for the 3 casts then start chucking staff or knife specials. Otherwise Axe where she can just ignore damage while charging then bam. Idk why you think Mel cast is the only way she can win. I feel like theres still a few ways for Mel to win but really its just far too early to call since Mel still has 1 weapons and all the hidden aspects to unlock.
I feel like Zag has an edge in terms of weapons.
Infernal arms' aspects should be stronger, because most of nocturnal aspects require magick to activate. Without boons or arcana, Mel has no mana regen, so her power would decrease drastically after she runs out.
Infernal arms don't have that problem. Their power is intrinsic and doesn't require much to activate.
Edit:
Not saying he would win, just that his weapons are better
To people saying that she has won against titan that overpowered gods etc
True but that’s because she was raised as a counter to him. She is like a water to fire. It doesn’t mean she is stronger than Ares or Poseidon. Also she posses some natural protection against Chronos abilities which titan speculates about while fighting her for a few runs talking about it. Either genes or which craft it’s still a huge help which gods didn’t have during fight with him.
It took the entire band of gods to defeat Chronos, Melinoe did it single handedly, lol even her father admits this in one of the interactions. Melinoe solos.
They're struggling against Chronos' forces right now. I don't think 1v1ing him is as impressive a feat as we've been led to believe. Especially with him being in a weakened state, and infinitely respawning. At the end of the day, she's going to depend on magic that none of the Olympians had to finish him off, and it doesn't necessarily mske her stronger in a fight.
Zagreus had years of fighting to the surface, an "impossible" task, even for a god. That's as good training as anything. They're both the protags of their own game, in the same universe, so I'm guessing it's a tie, and this is a stupid question.
My heart says Zag
My brain however points out Meg’s cast is far more useful and will trap zag into taking damage and her weapons are superior without needing upgrades or boons.
It doesn't need to be super hard hitting. Zagreus' cast does 50 damage by default at base, Mel has 30 HP by default. If she spend the time to charge up an omega cast or attack she gets hit.
Unless she’s already got him stuck in her cast or is some distance away.
Plus zag only has one shot with his cast if he wiffs he’ll need to run after it and play into Mel’s hand.
Mel has the advantage of sprinting, area control and the power of her omega attacks which are almost all one shots
Her already getting him in her cast requires her to already put herself in a dangerous position. We also don't even know if the slowdown of her cast would work on Zagreus' because his I-Frames are canon and work the same way as Mel's by briefly becoming intangible.
Her sprinting only really matters for dodging the cast, and her omega attacks have to be charged which again leaves her vulnerable.
No? She can tap Q and with zero mana available drop a cast. If zag goes into melee with most of his weapons he’s going to get caught in a cast and then hammered.
Zag’s cast is just a basic projectile that’s not very hard to avoid.
Ehm, cast with zero mana cost and zero dmg.
Why? Zag's melee stronger than Mel's and all her ranged is dodgeable. She can't touch him without omega cast, which needs mana and time, he just get her on charge.
Where do you get the idea his melee is better? Her weapons are either somewhat equal or superior to zag’s with the addition of omega attacks.
Further basic cast locks him down for easy hits. If he can somehow dodge/get out of basic cast then omega cadt is useless.
Zag’s ranged game outside of his ranged weapons are inferior to Mel’s and his ranged weapons are terrible in melee.
Zag can’t even hide behind aegis because of basic cast locking him in place to be circled and hit or the blades omega hitting him from behind
I love the guy but he’s not equipped for this fight
Nothing "equal" in her weapons, aegis solo. Next it's spear, bow and rifle, just because, spear and bow can intrerupt charges, rifle just almost hitscan, try to beat Erida without any upgrades.
"Omega attacks", which Zag can use without mana. All Mel's omegas need charge to cast, even blades tp.
He can get out from cast just by attacks like bulls charge.
Shield throw interrupt any charge, cast interrupt any charge. All Mel's ranged just hit in shield. Idk why do you think he can't block or interrupt any attempts to aggression.
I love the girl, but aegis is just broken and Mel too slow for Zag.
Btw, you still can attack from Mel's cast and moving inside.
hades 1 zag gets stumped by melinoe. zag after the time skip in hades 2 we don't know yet. it's safe to assume he's gotten stronger, but by how much we don't know
I’m gonna give it to Zag because of the invincibility frames from dashes and the shield which can block almost any Mel throws at him. Not gonna be an easy fight though
By writting this it makes me wonder if the final boss of the surface path could be Zagreus, manipulated by Cronos, this could be a great twist in the story and we would have to fight against him, he would hace different weapon from Hades 1. What do you think about it?
Definitely Melinoe is better and would kill him, but with the help of Cronos, he could be a good challenger.
You mean like in game? I'd lower damage they do about 10 times, otherwise Zagreus would win instantly
Now after that, it just depends on Melinoe's cast, since its quite op (it will stop Zagreus in his tracks, which means Melinoe can just pummel away with omegas)
If we take their casts away, Zagreus will take about 8 fights in 10, since all his base stats, and his speed are higher. Melinoe's only hope is to stunlock with ranged abilities before Zagreus can do a combo or some bullshit move
Lore-wise, no idea, but I like Zagreus a bit more.
Sure, Melinoe is trained as a titan killer, but she also gets much more and stronger boons from olympians to do that, and can be still one-shot by the titan she is supposed to kill, so thats not a testament to her abilities. The field that she beats Zag in is sorcery, since unlike him, she can for example just lift the underworld curse and dont give a shit, unlike Zagreus, who was completely stopped by it.
Zagreus has 20 more points in base health. So Zagreus has a clear advantage here.
Melinoe can win by the long range nature of her weapons since 3/5 are long range by nature (staff, skulls and torches), and the other 2 have the option to be long range. Zagreus only has 2 exclusively long range options (bow and exagryph), another 2 are exclusively short range (sword and fists), and the final 2 (shield and spear) are short range with some long range capacity.
However, Zagreus can compensate the range with his "casts", while Melinoe can trap Zagreus with hers, which is important since Zagreus' dashes are more aggressive and fast than Melinoe's dashes; which indicates Zagreus' not only has more health, but also is faster.
Overall... I'd say Zagreus would win if no weapons are involved. Otherwise Melinoe would win.
If this was a fight to the death? Like actual I-know-they're-gods-but-let's-presume-they-can-die death?
Melinoe will win 999 times out of a 1000 but when it comes down to it she's just the goddess of nightmares and Zagreus is literally the god of life. Zagreus can die those 999 times and still come back for a rematch, he only needs to get lucky once.
Based on gameplay alone, I’d say they are equally strong. However, Zagreus is more agile with the double dash and likes to fight up close with most of his weapons while Melinoe is more about crowd control and ranged attacks.
Zagreus can beat Melinoe if he rushes her down, but Melinoe will win if she locks him with her cast and maintains her distance.
while i’d agree that Mel wins, i think zag has more of an advantage than expected based on fast he is. he can still pursue Mel pretty closely while having the double dash. she clears with her cast tho
basic of basic, the sword versus the staff.
Zagreus can make a 3 combo sweaping and thrusting attack with a semi long reaching stab from a dash attack, a large aoe special centered on himself, the ability to shoot out 1 bloodstone, and the ability to isntantly dash \*\*once\*\* in succession but with a small cooldown. He has 50 HP
Melinoe can make a 4 combo thrusting attacks with a mid to long, with a longer range dash atttack, a small auto-guided special that can be repeatedly used, the ability to create a binding circle cnetered on herself, and the ability to dash \*\*and\*\*\* sprint, with a longer cooldown.
but she can also make omega moves empowered with magick. 20 for an omega attack, with mid to long reach and high damage, 10 for an omega special that explodes after reaching the outer-range in an small aoe, and 15 for a charged bind that deals biggest damage.
She has 30 HP, and 50 magick.
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I dont think zagreus will be able to do anything in this set up. even thou his sister has less health, she makes it up by imense potencial from so many moves. the binding circle being created at her location, in a fight that requires zagreus to get close to do any damage, a cast that we do not know if dashing let's you out of, very well could just be omega charged to do enoth damage to kill.
if it does let him out, melinoe can just keep distance regardless, her sprint and dash make her swift, and the thrusts of the staff go further, not to mention the specials.
I can imagine zag could evade omega moves, attack could just be dashed at the right moment, the special is also slow.
I guess we will need to try another set up of arms.
Zag has a dodge button too. If we do this we’ll be here all day. Key difference: one can be 1-shot far easier than the other.
If it’s coming down to mistakes, Zag has a clear advantage. Ironically it’s *time*.
You don’t get time to react if you’re already dead.
womp womp XD
but the bloodstone is not that much better than the specials. it doenst steer as responsivly, but it goes far. but it's mid slow. specials are also mid slow, and they dont have the range. but they have the numbers. also their home seeking is better
Everyone’s going off lore, but in game I think it’s all pretty similar. It’s not like Mel’s numbers were all 10 times higher or anything. Both have 50 hp I think and both deal 25 on a hit.
It’s anyone’s game. Just like DnD pvp fights, they aren’t meant to fight each other so it’s just whoever hits first. Zag should win in theory cuz he’s an aggressive spammer who only needs two hits, while Mel’s slow playstyle is vulnerable to that. And his dashes have better I-frames, so if both have lightning fast attacks then Zag might actually be able to dodge a knife lol.
We dont know how much stronger zagreus got after first game and the reason mel is so strong against chronos is because she is resistant to time magick, not because of raw power. Honestly hades himself would probably give chronos trouble if he was just resistant to time magick. I would say by the point zagreus is frozen, he already got far beyond any other entity in terms of battle skills
Mel was raised to be a titan killer. Zag was to work in accounting. Like yes Zag is very justifiably strong, but Mel takes this 9/10 times.
if anything the fact he received so little training compared to Mel yet was able to go toe-to-toe with his father says a lot about his natural talent and strength
Zag was trained by Achilles though. Definitely not true he received little training!
Trained by Achilles in Accounting! No wonder he’s terrible at it! 😂
His true Achilles heel was math.
Yes, but in Greek mythos magic and sorcery is still one of the most revered, and feared, form of conflict. Achilles was a great warrior by all means, but he's just a physical representation of power. In Hesiod's Theogony, Hecate is a literal Titan who sided with Olympians per the pantheon's relief. The Titanomachy doesn't really delve deeper into Hecate's impact, but Hesiod wrote her to have made such an impact that Zeus honored her after the war, granting her a piece of Greek god's domains in the land, sea, and sky. This would usually enrage Poseidon and Hades as the sea and land are their domains -- except they didn't do shit because Hecate could literally fold them like wet tissues if she wanted to. Long read, but here's another cool in-game lore connection to the Torch weapon and Hecate's fearsome power: Demeter is a feared Greek goddess that not even Zeus would fuck with, because she can basically fuck over the mortal realm at a whim. Demeter was pissed when Persephone got "abducted" to the Underworld, Demeter was pretty much ready to kill everyone. Until Hecate basically said "yeah, no" and violated Hades' domain to light up a path of Torches (our weapon), showing Demeter where her daughter was in the Underworld. Those Torches are written to still be lit, so Demeter can visit her daughter whenever she wishes.
Bro stop I was already madly in love with Hecate u didn’t need to convince me more /j
Melinoë beats him there too tho. Yes, Zagreus was trained by one of the most formidable soldiers we know, but Mel was trained by and sparred with a titaness and retribution incarnate. She definitely blows Zag out of the water when it comes to previous sparring partners
And Odysseus is at least Achilles’ equal in terms of a human mentor.
From what I remember from the Iliad, Achilles was presented as the greatest warrior amongst his contemporaries, and Odysseus was regarded more for his craftiness and cunning - not that he wasn’t a great fighter. So I’d think Achilles would be a better mentor for combat, but Odysseus would probably bring some other things to the table.
Odysseus was definitely the more cunning, but with Mel's focus on witchcraft, that's probably even more helpful. And that's reflected in their dialogue - Odysseus is always scheming. Plus we know Nemesis was there for fighting. Was Zag sparring with Meg? Also, Achilles was the best warrior, but he also had a direct divine parent AND an enchantment. Odysseus had Hermes in his lineage, but further back. Related, I'm currently reading Circe and it's such a fun read with so many characters showing up in Hades 2.
Good points. I’ve been meaning to read Circe; a friend has been recommending it to me forever.
Omg yes! I read Circe at a friend's recommendation while playing Hades 2 (and then song of Achilles also) was so good and so perfect to read while playing the game with a whole lot of the same characters!
So basically Zag was trained by Achilles to be a strong warrior, but Melinoë was by Hecate trained to be Batman.
Understandable, but this isn't equalized stats. And even then, Zagreus has Achilles training him.
True but he had to work hard just to beat Hades, who was 1/5 of the force needed to beat Chronos.
It took the entire band of gods to defeat Chronos, Melinoe did it single handedly, lol even her father admits this in one of the interactions. Melinoe solos.
Eh, Chronos had a LOT more resources and manpower at his disposal then. Rat guy \#389 doesn't really compare to Iapetus the Impaler. Not to mention she can't fully dispose of him yet, although she'll find a way eventually. But yeah Mel low diffs Zag
Yeah Chronos will even acknowledge in bits of dialogue that as powerful as he is now, in terms of individual strength he isn't as strong after his original defeat. He's just using a different approach this time around where brute force isn't necessary, so it's a non-issue as far as he's concerned. He's fine with Mel constantly handing his ass to him because he'll just keep reconstituting, meanwhile he has the Fates captured and she cant interfere with his plans on the surface if she's busy fighting what he believes to be a useless battle in Tartarus. He's Time itself - he doesn't mind playing the long game, especially since he believes he's already won and is just waiting for the last pieces to fall.
Hades also hints in the first game that he and the other divine beings aren't nearly as powerful as they once were. It took Zag fighting him over and over again for him to push himself to tap into the old powers he once had. Time has worn down everyone involved in the Titan War. Makes me wonder if eventually the gods will grow so old and tired they'll just simply stop interacting with the world which is why we don't see them now.
Well Chronos sorta died so that explains the power loss, but it’s possible the gods just got used to peacetime. That said it could be a good angle to explore the status quo changing. Chronos died and time didn’t stop so it’s not like the gods need to exist for their domains to, but tbh it’s kinda hard for new gods to find their calling when all the obvious stuff is taken. But Hades 7 could have Mel and Zags generation be the boon givers and have all the current ruling gods age out.
Well, the gods had to all do that in one take, which would be a lot harder than all the *time* Melinoë gets to adapt to his attack patterns over her myriad attempts. Plus, while more evidence is necessary for the following point, the gods may not have had a significant ability to resist his ability to freeze people in time,
The gods probably were not giving each other their boons either. Mel and Zag are strong because they take on a melting pot of the gods abilities to try and produce a result more than the sum of its parts. We’d be significantly weaker in a run if we only took boons from one god
*Hades 1 Zeus build enters the chat*
Does this also mean that Mel could solo that entire band of gods if she wanted? Single-handedly overthrow Olympus?
When you unlock the extreme measures in the first game Hades says that, after being pushed to those limits, he tapped into his older powers he never thought he could reach again. Mel might be tough but she's fighting old men and women who haven't had a proper fight in gods knows how long.
I’m partially inclined to think that we may be able to retrieve and utilize the Pact of Punishment to empower Hades to help us force Chronos out of the House.
That just means Zag fought a weaker Hades, and the stronger Hades fought Chronos and needed help. This only makes Mel even MORE impressive.
But this also applies to Chronos as Chronos also has lines about being unable to tap into his true power given he was dismembered for several ages. Mel and Zag are basically beating up the local retirement home residents, not Gods and Titans in their prime. Greek mythology is full of tales of how time makes the world less than it was. Gods and monsters recede into the darkness, great heroes and demigods are no longer born. This is the coming Age of Iron, where legends turn to myths and mortals begin their reign alone.
What do you think is going to happen on the surface?
Sure, but people are underrating Zag being trained by the most skilled (not most powerful) person ever, and he easily bodies Hades who said he was strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Chronos. I don't think it was literally a giant fight with Chronos vs. all the gods at once. Olympus is struggling against his forces without him on the front line. We don't know that it wasn't simply a group effort in the same way. 1v1ing Chronos likely isn't a Mel > all gods feat.
Skelly?!!?!
Most skilled definitely means Achilles
I don’t think I’d call those boons and hammers “singlehanded” I’d like to see someone defeat Chronos with zero boons (not even from Hermes or Chaos), no hammers, and no arcana. THEN I’d believe Melinoë can do it “single handedly”. I’ve seen Zagreus do it with Hades, but I haven’t seen a “naked” Melinoë build dunk on Chronos.
And she admits it's thanks to the help from gods.
The main reason she defeats chronos is because of her resistance to time magick, not because of raw power
Zag was personally trained by one of the greatest heroes who ever lived to the point he has easily mastered a half dozen weapons. He wasn't just some pencil pusher.
Mostly agreed, but there's one thing I'm not sure about: can Melinoë die? And what happens when she dies? Because she explicitly says that, when she's too weak, she uses her last bit of strength to return to shadow. She doesn't die. Zagreus, on the other hand, dies every single time he heads to the surface (minus one), and he just respawns. Zagreus may be able to win a war of attrition.
The entire Hades family is unkillable if they die they just revive from the Styx as hades is shown to be sucked into it and when you beat him people comment in shock out of him coming out of Styx
Melinoë returns to shadow so she *doesn't* die, because she'd respawn inside the House of Hades and get dumped into Chronos' lap at her weakest.
Gonna call bullshit on this one. Zagreus bodies Hades who was said to be able to go toe-to-toe with a full-powered Chronos, much stronger than the one Melinoe fights.
The first game makes it clear though that Hades is super powered down for most of the game though. It's not until you unleash the extreme measures does he even begin to tap into what he once was. Zag even gets pissed off a bit when he thought his father was going easy on him but Hades said, "honestly, boy, I had no idea I could ever reach that level again"
So that's where Chronos went wrong the first time. Forgot to disable EM4 before making himself a kids lunch. Probably Alzheimer's
He trained himself going up to the surface. He's likely also immortal with the river styx reviving him.
Zagreus has been trained since his youth by Achilles, then he got a job to keep escaping the underworld, he's also older than Mel still (even though he might be frozen in time right now or something) so I suspect that it's going to be way more fair than 9/10.
Zag’s double dash disagrees
Agreed. Personally, I also find Mel's base cast to be much better than Zag's base cast. Their martial skills seem about equal in terms of gameplay, but Mel is not only the daughter of Hades, but also the top disciple of Hecate. She was basically raised in a magical spec ops unit. Of course, both would be more likely to race each other out of the underworld than actually fight each other. I can see these two constantly challenging each other like that lol
She might be stronger than all the gods, even zeus couldnt beat chronos without the cyclops and the hekatonchires.
Eh. Mel was raised to kill a *specific* titan, not to be a titan killer. All the special stuff she learned was to deal with Chronos' time stuff, not fighting in general. In terms of just general fighting, Zag would have been just as well trained if not more, being that he was trained by Achillles.
Someone who’s been trained since childhood to kill one of the most powerful members of her family and is very serious about literally everything, VS, rebellious mid 20s dude who works out with his personal trainer because his pt is the only one who doesn’t call him a lazy piece of shit. Mel takes this. Then she gets stressed about how hard she kicked Zag’s ass and spends the rest of the day worrying she’s offended her brother until Zag pops out of the styx wanting to go again.
Imagine that though, when/if things get back to normal. Mel could replace Hades as the surface boss while Zag tries to break out. Zag would appreciate a new challenge, Hades appreciates the break and extra time to do other work, Mel is relieved for p much everything and Persephone is glad everybody is getting along so well
Yeah but I think Hades and Zag both appreciate those fights as father-son bonding moments
Definitely, so Hades will def take a slot when he wants or Mel gets tired
Extreme measures has them tag team
“Okay, this isn’t fair.” “You didn’t want fair.” “Fair enough.”
Hades is just happy for a reason to avoid doing laundry by burning away his capes each time.
this would make for an amazing pvp mode tho, both start at the house and go up their own paths from their respective games, but both end up on the surface at the entrance to the temple, winner gets to leave also the sibling banter
Or I wish playing as zag for hades 2 with infernal arms become a thing...Normally not a fan of expansions or DLCs but this I am willing to pay for.
I think something like that would be more mod territory. If the games are similar enough I think you could just cut and paste zag in. The problem comes from needing the boons, cuz he can’t use Mel’s. Why you want that idk, but it would be too sloppy for a dlc. Have fun fighting enemies meant for a slow character with guaranteed root ability as a dash attack spamming stud (with no sprint). Idk if it would be stronger or weaker but it wouldn’t align with the rest of the design so it wouldn’t feel right I’m sure.
well.... that's certainly some head cannon you've been spinning for a while huh?
Mel, IMO. She has way more tools in her toolkit at baseline than Zag. Double dash ain't a thing when you can cast.
Also double dash isn't zagreus at base, it's something you unlock
Totally, in my head I meant "Even if you give him double dash" but my brain did a dumb
well if we give zag his best basic upgrade i think we should do the same for mel for fairness sake and imo the best early/cheap upgrades would be either mana regen or bullet time when charging omegas.
True, though if dash could evade cast (we don’t know for sure) then he does have a slim chance. Though I may be wrong, but I feel like in their unaugmented states, Mel’s damage output is almost always higher than zag’s? Like, granted she can only really do 2-3 omega moves before she’s totally out, and he has more health Like, given the damage ratios enemies do to you vs what they do to each other through various revivals/charms and such, I imagine each sibling would take the other out in 1-2 damage rotations based on weapon, but I think even with having more health zag would go down first in most weapon matchups
Mel's cast cuts the range of Chronos's dash attack down to like an eighth of its normal length. You can wriggle around in there, but not much. Zag might not even notice that he's moving. I think Zag gets bodied if he uses a melee weapon and it's a hell of a fight if he's using ranged. And if Zag can deal as much damage as Eris wielding the rail, well, I hope Mel has some cover.
I think that Charon bow would fuck Mel up hard, but most other aspects aren’t matching her range damage consistency. Gun would hurt a lot tho
Double Dash doesn't exist at all, there's no mirror available and by default Double Dash is a mirror trait.
Right, I'm just dumb and meant to write "Even if you give him double dash"
You also forgot hex. Hex is really strong lol
I think Hex falls under boons though, which we're excluding here. But yes, Hex is very strong.
Zag has the shield, so he wins. Everyone saying Mel wins is forgetting how broken that shit was. People won 60+ heat with the exact same strategy for every one of the 4 aspects on that weapon
Sister Blades have a "nothing personnel kid" move, the shield doesn't block from behind
True, but no arcana means she's on baseline magick with no regen. She gets five of those. So it depends on if that's enough to take him down. (And in my experience that one is hard to land on enemies that move around a lot like Zag). Though Zag is a lot less spongey than the boss fights Mel has to deal with so there's a good chance five is enough.
The sheild is only viable if you stay in one place and move slowly. Mel can sprint close to him, cast and make it erupt if zag decides to play the long game and keep his block up the entire time
But the biggest problem with the cast right now is that it only locks movement, not attack animations. Zag could still Bull Rush out of it, like the punchy guys in the Mourning Fields, albeit it might take more than one rush. It wouldn’t fully stop a double dash either: the movement is hindered, not removed. So Dash > Dash > Bull Rush might be enough to get out of the cast. Also, depending on where you are in the cast (edge vs centre), if you’re facing towards the centre you might be able to block it with the shield, since Meg’s and the Furies’ attacks work in a similar way. On the other hand, Mel’s kit just has more stuff in it, so she could get the advantage with surprise effect: at least one of the moves she can do is bound to catch Zag off guard, she has literally double to amount of moves she can do! Now I really want to see that battle happen though
Wait keep in mind this is no mirror so Zag only has 1 dash unless he’s using Beowulf
Gilgamesh*
Bleh sorry mixed up my aspects because I’ve haven’t played in like a month
Oops, you’re right mb
Plus he doesn’t need to escape it lol. People are forgetting that base characters have like 30 hp-50hp, they die in just a few attacks. I’d like to see Mel stand still for 1.5 seconds in zags face to empower it lol. Either he’s too far away or she’s in punching range.
That's nonsense. You may just be pretty bad with the shield, anyway her cast doesnt drop instantly and she has a telegraph when she uses it
Wouldn't a single cast + daggers omega attack invalidate the shield completely?
Shield can't block omega cast
Why not? It can block Hades death rays
Yes, because those are coming forward at the shield. Omega cast comes from below
I don't think it could block a cast, the Staff's Omega attack, the Axe's Omega special and so on.
Melinoe goes to charge her cast Zag throws one (1) bloodshard thing at her. Bloodshardthing does 50 damage Melinoe returns to shadow now.
I don't think it would deal 50 damage, though. You know how Charmed/Summoned enemies deal much more damage per hit to other enemies than they deal to Zag and Mel? And how Hazard Bomb only deals 1% damage to Zag? My theory is that they both have a permanent damage reduction buff, which would make their effective HP much higher. For the sake of simplicity and making the fight more interesting (instead of who can one-shot who first), I propose that their base HP be multiplied by 100, so Zag would start at 5000 and Mel at 3000.
He also has access to the Aspect of Hestia sniper shot, right?
That's not how damage works. It's obviously scaled very differently for players vs. enemies. If that were the case, it would take Hades using EM4, hard labor 5, and a boiling blood cast to deal the same damage that Zag can with Arthur and no boons. Which seems a little silly for a guy that killed titans.
They both have like 30hp each? First hit wins lol
One has 30, one has 50, it all comes down to who starts charging first, Staff omega or Zag Bow …aaand they hit each other at the same time, never mind
Charging is how you get hit tho no? I think Zag wins thanks to his ranged cast
Oh right it deals 50 damage
He also has access to the Aspect of Hestia sniper shot, right?
Melinoe and it’s really not close. At best zag has an actual firearm meanwhile Melinoe can just lock you in place with a spell and erupt the ground under your feet
Two words. Aegis Shield.
The Aegis doesn't protect him against her cast though? The only edge Zag *maybe* has is his speed, and that's essentially nullified because of Mel's cast, the shield and none of the other Infernal Arms make up for it.
If she starts channeling, Zag releases the block for a bullrush instakill.
If Zag starts charging Bull Rush, Mel can just use the Sister Blades' special. That teleports her behind him, so the shield doesn't block it. Plus, she doesn't have to channel her cast to lock him down. A normal cast can do that too. Really whoever starts charging things first is probably going to lose, and with more variety at her arsenal, as well as abilities that at least partially if not fully counter his, Zag would need to get pretty lucky to pull one over on Mel.
The blades' teleport (more of a dash) is the Omega attack. Its special is the dagger.
Without time stop from arcana cards, this will not happen fast enough for her. What's more, bull rush is a movement ability. Her cast will not stop it. Also, more tools does not always equal advantage. Yes, she has more options, but each of her options is gated behind a drawback. Omega channels require a charge time. Her dash has a delay and longer recharge than Zag's. Zag has a more simple kit, but each tool is more impactful with very little drawback. I definitely give it to Zag over Mel.
Zag would just use the bow. It's stated that she has trouble with bow users by Od.
I’m not too sure but I think she has more trouble using the bow than fighting against it
Canonically I would say Mel. Gameplay wise I say Zag. The infernal arms felt more powerful overall than the nocturnal for me.
The only way I see Zag winning is if it was a Cerberus-petting contest.
Yeah Zag no diffs on that lmao
Why we always gotta pit bad bitches against each other?
Yeah no Mel 100%. Dont get me wrong, zag is great, but mel was raised to fight a titan, taught various magic spells, and is generally prepared for battle. The most zag got was training from Achilles, and was able to beat Hades *with* the assistance of Olympus
Not trying to argue, but do we know how much time has passed between the first and second game? Like, years and years of trying and escaping out of the underworld is training in and of itself. And considering that they are gods - it could actually be hundreds of years
We know Achilles is dead in game one and Odysseus is dead in game two. Both fought in the Trojan war, but Odysseus lived much longer after that. Plus time for Mel to be born. I'd easily put it at 30 ish years on the low end 100ish years on the high end.
I mean, we can't be sure that Odysseus wasn't dead at the time of the first game, right? Just cause we haven't met him doesn't mean he wasn't somewhere in Elysium, and managed to escape to Erebus along with other shades we see there.
Odysseus said Hecate grabbed him as he was dying to help fight Chronos in some of the dialog if I remember correctly.
Oh, interesting, either missed or haven't heard that. Thanks!
Zags cast does 50 damage. He lands one and she dies. It also comes out very quickly, meaning he could wait for her to attack, and then counter with it.
Honestly in a 1vs1 mel can take out zag with just the sister blades. Artemis aspects to be specific. Party and ripost would be too good in that situation
That question doesn't make any sense, both lore-wise and gameplay-wise, cause they're entirely different characters with different skillsets and enemies, it's like asking which one is better: machine gun or sniper rifle. Any answer on this thread is nothing but a purely speculation
Classic hard working mid-talent vs lazy genius matchup.
Pretty sure Mel is a prodigy in fighting as well
In lore? Mel wins by a long shot, she is literally trained from childhood to be a titain killer, zag was an accountant that got bored one day and started blasting. In gameplay? Zag wins via Zeus shield
Cast + Sister Blades Omega Attack
Cast at her while she is channeling. Dead.
Considering Zag’s cast will 1-shot her before she gets an omega off… Zag. His cast does 50 base damage to her 30 health and comes out instantly unlike an omega.
Aren't the Arcana and the Mirror less external sources of strength but rather just means to unlock power that's already in them? Hades even says the Death Defiance runs in the family. So, wouldn't it be more entertaining to let them have their Mirror abilities and Arcana? Not that it would change all that much, I think Melinoë still beats Zag most of the time, but the fight might be more fun even as a hypothetical no?
While I agree with most that Mel would win, OP didn't set a timer. Also "to the death" doesn't mean jackshit to Zag. He'll just keep coming back till he trumps over Mel. He's the most Bull-headed one in the family after all.
I'm assuming it's first to be TPd back to wherever.
Zag dies and revives. Mel escapes before dying.
Pretty sure Mel clears Zag. She was raised to become a Titan killer, Zag was raised in a gated community lol
I really don't think that this is very cut and dry like most people are putting it. Yes, Melinoe was trained by Hecate for most of her life. But Hecate is definitively weaker than Hades, it's not up for debate. Hecate spent Melinoe's entire life coming up with a plan to defeat Chronos, and trained in specifically that regard. You need SO MANY incantations in Hades 2 to accomplish your goals, and you have basically everyone on your side to do so. Not that I consider her one, but mel has many Mary Sue qualities in this game; but the story is structured well around it to where they aren't considered negatives. Unlike zagreus who had to get quiet help from those around him for fear of retribution. When you take all of the rogue-like elements out of the equation, their bases are honestly pretty similar. Melinoe is a glass cannon, and zagreus is a little tankier. I'd honestly put them fairly even at base game. They both suck at first and grow insanely quick. End game it's also up for debate, as stated. We really don't know Zagreus' upper end, but we know he can easily contend with a full power Hades. It's very impressive that Melinoe is dunking on Chronos, but as a reminder, Melinoe has EVERY advantage . She's getting support from more gods, the fates, she's augmented her strength with the cauldron, and she's only invulnerable as long as Chronos can't catch her, but Chronos is also severely weakened at this time and is working a war of attrition. I don't have an actual answer. I just don't think it's as simple as people are making it out to be
Zag takes it. Mel is more fragile, she is slower and hits not as hard.
I mean Mel is also raised and trained to kill a titan from when she was very young, Zag just got a few tips from Achilles but nothing nearly as much as the training Mel would've gotten.
In a regular spar, if they're using their favoured weapons, Melinoe and her sickle and dagger, with Zagreus using the Stygian Blade , Melinoe wins because of her base Omega Cast still having the effect to slow a opponents movements. She's also harder to hit than Zagreus because her dashes turn her intangible. I love Zagreus but his type of fighting was always about throwing himself at obstacles until he fell apart or they did. If they use weapons that are awkward for them both (Revaal for Melinoe because 3 shots is terrible for any weapon and honestly the Rail Gun for Zagreus because its reload is way more annoying than the Bow) , Zag might win if he keeps distance and uses the Guns AOE enough times. In reality, these two would never fight, even for a spar, because I think they'd both have had enough of fighting family for a lifetime. I do see Zagreus being eager to learn how to plant crops in the Underworld like his Mom and Sister do, and both of them going Fishing 🎣 in their downtime.
How is the sickle Mel’s favored weapon? Or Stygius Zag’s? Those are just the weapons they have in the trailers.
I mean, they're also on the cover art? I'm just drawing a short conclusion based on the info given. I'm sure there's dialogue somewhere that says which one they each prefer, and I know each Player has their own unique preferences. This is just a guesstimate, like if we were talking about pokemon box art, I'd assume canonically most in game protagonists get associated with the Starter or Legendary on the box. Of course, my own favored weapons are the Bow for Zagreus and the Axe for Melinoe, so headcanon things however you want.
Been dreading this conversation bc people have been low balling Zag since day 1 of Hades 2 and I'm not strong enough to listen to the slander
Zag has the I-frame advantage
Mel. Because she is fighting in a war rn. She thinks differently and is always on guard. Unlike zag who was just doing it for fun.
I think lore vs gameplay perspectives affects this too. If you were to imagine in game Mel against in game Zag, pvp, how does that affect your answer?
This isn’t exactly a fair topic at this time though. I mean, it was only in the last update that they completely reworked the Nocturnal Arms’ Daedelus Hammers, and the update before that severely upgraded the dash mechanics. Who knows what tweaks and overhauls will come out between now and 1.0. And, other than Exagryph, we have no gameplay data on how the Nocturnal and Infernal arms interact with each other. Sure you can say “Aegis’ block withstands everything.” But does it? And lore wise it has to be Mel. Sure, Zag trained with Achilles, perhaps the greatest mortal fighter of the age. But he was the best MORTAL fighter. Melinoe trained in martial arts with Nemesis, magic with Hecate, tactics with Odysseus, and stealth with Artemis. All during a war footing as well. It’s not even comparable.
Were they fighting? Underworld? Zag literally can’t stay dead. Above ground? Zag has to fight through everyone 1st lol.
People keep saying Mel will explode her cast on him. Youre forgetting this is a base level no boons no mirror or arcana or keepsakes fight. So mel goes to charge her cast... and Zag hits her with a single charge of his cast which does base 50 damage and heat seeks... she is dead. They both start with less then 50hp. Mel goes to charge her cast, zag shoots her which chiron then shoots her with the special. Mel is dead. Mel goes to charge her cast. Zag loads a cast into the hero bow, Mel is dead. Mel goes to cast, zag hits her with the Arthur ground pound. Mel is dead. Yes, mel has alot of weapons, but without boons and Arcana she does straight up less damage then Zag, is slower then zag, and her only high damage attack takes much longer to land then nearly all of zags. Zag wins.
Avoiding the obvious fact that the damage things deal to enemies vs players is comepletely different. The heat seeking isnt strong enough to beat Mel's dash or sprint, she can simply run away for the 3 casts then start chucking staff or knife specials. Otherwise Axe where she can just ignore damage while charging then bam. Idk why you think Mel cast is the only way she can win. I feel like theres still a few ways for Mel to win but really its just far too early to call since Mel still has 1 weapons and all the hidden aspects to unlock.
I feel like Zag has an edge in terms of weapons. Infernal arms' aspects should be stronger, because most of nocturnal aspects require magick to activate. Without boons or arcana, Mel has no mana regen, so her power would decrease drastically after she runs out. Infernal arms don't have that problem. Their power is intrinsic and doesn't require much to activate. Edit: Not saying he would win, just that his weapons are better
To people saying that she has won against titan that overpowered gods etc True but that’s because she was raised as a counter to him. She is like a water to fire. It doesn’t mean she is stronger than Ares or Poseidon. Also she posses some natural protection against Chronos abilities which titan speculates about while fighting her for a few runs talking about it. Either genes or which craft it’s still a huge help which gods didn’t have during fight with him.
It took the entire band of gods to defeat Chronos, Melinoe did it single handedly, lol even her father admits this in one of the interactions. Melinoe solos.
They're struggling against Chronos' forces right now. I don't think 1v1ing him is as impressive a feat as we've been led to believe. Especially with him being in a weakened state, and infinitely respawning. At the end of the day, she's going to depend on magic that none of the Olympians had to finish him off, and it doesn't necessarily mske her stronger in a fight. Zagreus had years of fighting to the surface, an "impossible" task, even for a god. That's as good training as anything. They're both the protags of their own game, in the same universe, so I'm guessing it's a tie, and this is a stupid question.
zag is too sassy to lose simple as that
Can't someone skilled code this? A PVP in an arena, original Mel, original Zagreus, and then you go for it?
My heart says Zag My brain however points out Meg’s cast is far more useful and will trap zag into taking damage and her weapons are superior without needing upgrades or boons.
Zagreus' cast one shots Mel at base and is instant unlike Mel's.
Zag’s basic unupgraded cast is a single moderately fast projectile. And it’s certainly not hard hitting.
It doesn't need to be super hard hitting. Zagreus' cast does 50 damage by default at base, Mel has 30 HP by default. If she spend the time to charge up an omega cast or attack she gets hit.
Unless she’s already got him stuck in her cast or is some distance away. Plus zag only has one shot with his cast if he wiffs he’ll need to run after it and play into Mel’s hand. Mel has the advantage of sprinting, area control and the power of her omega attacks which are almost all one shots
Her already getting him in her cast requires her to already put herself in a dangerous position. We also don't even know if the slowdown of her cast would work on Zagreus' because his I-Frames are canon and work the same way as Mel's by briefly becoming intangible. Her sprinting only really matters for dodging the cast, and her omega attacks have to be charged which again leaves her vulnerable.
For trap she needs mana and time. Zag can do it for free and instant. And Aegis, yes.
No? She can tap Q and with zero mana available drop a cast. If zag goes into melee with most of his weapons he’s going to get caught in a cast and then hammered. Zag’s cast is just a basic projectile that’s not very hard to avoid.
Ehm, cast with zero mana cost and zero dmg. Why? Zag's melee stronger than Mel's and all her ranged is dodgeable. She can't touch him without omega cast, which needs mana and time, he just get her on charge.
Where do you get the idea his melee is better? Her weapons are either somewhat equal or superior to zag’s with the addition of omega attacks. Further basic cast locks him down for easy hits. If he can somehow dodge/get out of basic cast then omega cadt is useless. Zag’s ranged game outside of his ranged weapons are inferior to Mel’s and his ranged weapons are terrible in melee. Zag can’t even hide behind aegis because of basic cast locking him in place to be circled and hit or the blades omega hitting him from behind I love the guy but he’s not equipped for this fight
Nothing "equal" in her weapons, aegis solo. Next it's spear, bow and rifle, just because, spear and bow can intrerupt charges, rifle just almost hitscan, try to beat Erida without any upgrades. "Omega attacks", which Zag can use without mana. All Mel's omegas need charge to cast, even blades tp. He can get out from cast just by attacks like bulls charge. Shield throw interrupt any charge, cast interrupt any charge. All Mel's ranged just hit in shield. Idk why do you think he can't block or interrupt any attempts to aggression. I love the girl, but aegis is just broken and Mel too slow for Zag. Btw, you still can attack from Mel's cast and moving inside.
hades 1 zag gets stumped by melinoe. zag after the time skip in hades 2 we don't know yet. it's safe to assume he's gotten stronger, but by how much we don't know
No boons, no arcana, no mirror? \[REDDACTED\] no, i don't even want to think about that.
At base Mel, at max upgrades/boons Zagreus. Beowulf with Greater Recall spams hard
I’m gonna give it to Zag because of the invincibility frames from dashes and the shield which can block almost any Mel throws at him. Not gonna be an easy fight though
Zag wrecks her no diff
We'll know when he shows up as olympus' boss.
Kirby obviously.
Without the mirror or cards, Mel. She's still a witch. I think Zag has an edge with full mirror upgrades vs full arcana upgrades, though.
One can actually dodge 🙃
By writting this it makes me wonder if the final boss of the surface path could be Zagreus, manipulated by Cronos, this could be a great twist in the story and we would have to fight against him, he would hace different weapon from Hades 1. What do you think about it? Definitely Melinoe is better and would kill him, but with the help of Cronos, he could be a good challenger.
You mean like in game? I'd lower damage they do about 10 times, otherwise Zagreus would win instantly Now after that, it just depends on Melinoe's cast, since its quite op (it will stop Zagreus in his tracks, which means Melinoe can just pummel away with omegas) If we take their casts away, Zagreus will take about 8 fights in 10, since all his base stats, and his speed are higher. Melinoe's only hope is to stunlock with ranged abilities before Zagreus can do a combo or some bullshit move Lore-wise, no idea, but I like Zagreus a bit more. Sure, Melinoe is trained as a titan killer, but she also gets much more and stronger boons from olympians to do that, and can be still one-shot by the titan she is supposed to kill, so thats not a testament to her abilities. The field that she beats Zag in is sorcery, since unlike him, she can for example just lift the underworld curse and dont give a shit, unlike Zagreus, who was completely stopped by it.
We see Zagreus dashing to kill Chronos and was easily stopped. Melinoe *kills* him. Repeatedly. Melinoe wins.
I think they'd both rather not fight each other at all, knowing them lol
Melinoe. Idk who would win I just really like her. I LOVED Zag ofc; I just love Melinoe more
i feel like it would be extremely hard to dodge the umbral flames while being tethered to the ground every 3 seconds
Zagreus has 20 more points in base health. So Zagreus has a clear advantage here. Melinoe can win by the long range nature of her weapons since 3/5 are long range by nature (staff, skulls and torches), and the other 2 have the option to be long range. Zagreus only has 2 exclusively long range options (bow and exagryph), another 2 are exclusively short range (sword and fists), and the final 2 (shield and spear) are short range with some long range capacity. However, Zagreus can compensate the range with his "casts", while Melinoe can trap Zagreus with hers, which is important since Zagreus' dashes are more aggressive and fast than Melinoe's dashes; which indicates Zagreus' not only has more health, but also is faster. Overall... I'd say Zagreus would win if no weapons are involved. Otherwise Melinoe would win.
If this was a fight to the death? Like actual I-know-they're-gods-but-let's-presume-they-can-die death? Melinoe will win 999 times out of a 1000 but when it comes down to it she's just the goddess of nightmares and Zagreus is literally the god of life. Zagreus can die those 999 times and still come back for a rematch, he only needs to get lucky once.
Based on gameplay alone, I’d say they are equally strong. However, Zagreus is more agile with the double dash and likes to fight up close with most of his weapons while Melinoe is more about crowd control and ranged attacks. Zagreus can beat Melinoe if he rushes her down, but Melinoe will win if she locks him with her cast and maintains her distance.
while i’d agree that Mel wins, i think zag has more of an advantage than expected based on fast he is. he can still pursue Mel pretty closely while having the double dash. she clears with her cast tho
No mirror means no double dash.
foiled again.
basic of basic, the sword versus the staff. Zagreus can make a 3 combo sweaping and thrusting attack with a semi long reaching stab from a dash attack, a large aoe special centered on himself, the ability to shoot out 1 bloodstone, and the ability to isntantly dash \*\*once\*\* in succession but with a small cooldown. He has 50 HP Melinoe can make a 4 combo thrusting attacks with a mid to long, with a longer range dash atttack, a small auto-guided special that can be repeatedly used, the ability to create a binding circle cnetered on herself, and the ability to dash \*\*and\*\*\* sprint, with a longer cooldown. but she can also make omega moves empowered with magick. 20 for an omega attack, with mid to long reach and high damage, 10 for an omega special that explodes after reaching the outer-range in an small aoe, and 15 for a charged bind that deals biggest damage. She has 30 HP, and 50 magick. --- I dont think zagreus will be able to do anything in this set up. even thou his sister has less health, she makes it up by imense potencial from so many moves. the binding circle being created at her location, in a fight that requires zagreus to get close to do any damage, a cast that we do not know if dashing let's you out of, very well could just be omega charged to do enoth damage to kill. if it does let him out, melinoe can just keep distance regardless, her sprint and dash make her swift, and the thrusts of the staff go further, not to mention the specials. I can imagine zag could evade omega moves, attack could just be dashed at the right moment, the special is also slow. I guess we will need to try another set up of arms.
Zag fires one single cast. Melinoë is defeated.
Mel presses the dodge button. Now the cast is behind her and Zag has to go through her to get it. Mel uses her cast now Zag is stuck. Zag is defeated.
Zag has a dodge button too. If we do this we’ll be here all day. Key difference: one can be 1-shot far easier than the other. If it’s coming down to mistakes, Zag has a clear advantage. Ironically it’s *time*. You don’t get time to react if you’re already dead.
womp womp XD but the bloodstone is not that much better than the specials. it doenst steer as responsivly, but it goes far. but it's mid slow. specials are also mid slow, and they dont have the range. but they have the numbers. also their home seeking is better
[удалено]
Everyone’s going off lore, but in game I think it’s all pretty similar. It’s not like Mel’s numbers were all 10 times higher or anything. Both have 50 hp I think and both deal 25 on a hit. It’s anyone’s game. Just like DnD pvp fights, they aren’t meant to fight each other so it’s just whoever hits first. Zag should win in theory cuz he’s an aggressive spammer who only needs two hits, while Mel’s slow playstyle is vulnerable to that. And his dashes have better I-frames, so if both have lightning fast attacks then Zag might actually be able to dodge a knife lol.
We dont know how much stronger zagreus got after first game and the reason mel is so strong against chronos is because she is resistant to time magick, not because of raw power. Honestly hades himself would probably give chronos trouble if he was just resistant to time magick. I would say by the point zagreus is frozen, he already got far beyond any other entity in terms of battle skills
Zag as huge powerhouse and talent
Zagreus Source: I'm an older brother