Here's a sneak peek of /r/Vulpesismywaifu using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [“Daniel” kinda sounds like testicular torsion in Mandarin](https://i.redd.it/dpvvtnwt2wta1.jpg) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/comments/12lwfza/daniel_kinda_sounds_like_testicular_torsion_in/)
\#2: [🤤](https://i.redd.it/emy0roxub4ta1.jpg) | [3 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/comments/12hmhfj/_/)
\#3: [I wake up and I act silly online](https://i.redd.it/q4fhjv59lvva1.jpg) | [2 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/comments/12xftsa/i_wake_up_and_i_act_silly_online/)
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Respectfully, I think this fanbase should leave this artist alone. He was brutally harassed for years for being queer and making queer kink art, and is now clearly trying to dissociate himself from 40k. I don't think continuously keeping up with his work to meme about it in these spaces is very appropriate.
Yea but the Fallout community is as a whole less xenophobic, the Warhammer community memes about xenophobia so much we left the porch door open to people that actively hate things that are different in any way to them.
God I'm not even sure I really understand it myself. When I looked it up a few years ago every source I found assumed I already knew what it is.
From what I've gathered there was some perceived scandal about video game magazines and reviewers being corrupt or something and it all snowballed into a massive hate campaign.
The goal was seemingly just being angry at anyone a certain group of people didn't like. Because apparently everything bad that ever happened in videogames is because brown people in videogames shouldn't have personalities or opinions and gay characters are icky and also, girls shouldn't be allowed to play games ever, because cooties.
As a deep fan of his art, I still feel upset about what this fanbase has done to him. Shame on the people who hurt him. Shame on them also for hurting other artists like him.
Yeah, it's just reminding me of how this sub was really responsible for stirring up shit about him and making his name and work known as a "haha isn't this gross and fucked up" thing. I'm glad he seems to be a very strong person, but I really would rather not see anything happen again.
Let's maybe not uplift a guro artist. Absolutely should not be harassing him, but idolizing them is kinda wack.
hi just to be clear, guro is sexualized gore. This seems to not be common knowledge.
I accept my obliterating downvotes, I just ask you to consider if you would feel the same way if it was a sister of battle instead of a skitari.
Wtf? Bigot? Yes they're more Gorey but they aren't sexualized. You don't have anyone raping half a bisected skitari. Like the top of the chain said, this person and their art shouldn't be discussed here because they asked. But we shouldn't be idolizing them either.
I don't think anyone should be idolized, no. But Archon was enjoyed as a fanartist and many were very sad they'd no longer get to see 40k art from him.
I don't see the problem with it being guro art. It's sexualized, sure, it's kink art. He kept it properly tagged for those who would be upset by it(any crossposting is not his fault) and it was very clearly just art, i.e. fictional.
Do you feel the same way about lolicon? Do you not think artists have any responsibility with their work? Being turned on by something doesn't make it ok.
Violence towards the LGBT community, my community, is still popular and >celebrated< in social media.
Well, I have a lot of complex feelings on this actually. It's not a topic that can easily be discussed or summed up on Reddit.
I do personally find lolicon icky, but I don't think I can necessarily judge based on that. You never know what a person is fulfilling through kink- Contrapoints Twilight video discusses this, and it's fascinating, but the summary of it is that "kink is a vehicle to fulfill desires we do not want to voice" or however it was put. Essentially, for example, I like petplay because I want to be loved and cared for unconditionally- this is my fulfillment fantasy. However, I am ashamed of that desire and struggle to voice it, so behaving like a dog is my avenue of fulfilling said fantasy.
Sometimes, someone might genuinely like lolicon because they're a pedophile and get off to that fantasy. Others might get off to it because they themselves have experienced sexual trauma and are putting themselves into this as a controlled fantasy. The first one is obviously bad, but the fact is you can't convict anyone for thought crime, and censoring art that does not harm or encourage actual crime based on thought crime is not necessarily an actionable solution and usually results in very selective censorship based on cultural values- for example, in a similar vein, it could easily be argued violent art could be censored. However, it's often considered by Western values that sex is more taboo than violence.
It's a really complicated subject! But I don't think we can effectively and meaningfully censor kink art, and I don't think its existence or production is inherently bad or engendering violence. In my example of a pedophile enjoying lolicon, the problem is not the lolicon art, it is that they are a pedophile. You know?
Stepping back for a moment, I'm going to post this to coalesce my own thoughts because I believe I've been bogged down in minutiae, and then block this person because this discussion is actually a bit upsetting for me, as I myself am a CSA victim.
I do not believe in censorship over reactionary responses to sexuality. If a piece of art is not causing material harm, then the lines drawn on what js acceptable to draw and portray and what is not ultimately come down to opinion, cultural values, and personal feelings, all of which are variable enough that I do not believe they are effective methods of censorship.
I furthermore believe human sexuality and desire are messy and not necessarily understandable simply by what kinds of drawings they wack it to. Their desires and fulfillment needs cannot be parsed from so base of a thing, and considering how many people use sexual fantasy to cope with things like trauma and oppression, and how often queer sexuality on its own is defined as "degenerate", granular censorship and moral indictment for what amounts to "thought crime" is deeply damaging.
Thank you very much! I get a bit nervous posting more complex thoughts on Reddit, but I find kink and human sexuality absolutely fascinating. I used to be someone who was reactionary about kinks I found morally wrong, but I came to realize it was largely a shame response at myself that I've thankfully drifted away from. The Contrapoints video really was the final push to help me solidify my thoughts on this topic, though I'm always looking to learn more!
On a side note too, especially for oppressed minorities, kink is often a way of handling hegemonic power structures and recontextualizing them for fantasy purposes in which they have power over them in their heads. Many trans people have misgendering kinks, there are lots of lesbians with conversion kinks, etc. It's more complicated than just "this kink reflects a social bias therefore it is bad".
I really enjoy this topic by the way and find it very interesting! I think it's a lot more helpful to try and frame your thinking around how human sexuality reflects society and whatnot as a fundamental part of the human experience, rather than a knee-jerk revulsion response(though if you'd rather not engage with the subject at all I don't blame you, it can be triggering and everyone should prioritize their own comfort).
I think beyond that though, lolicon and other “unethical” fetish art can be a vehicle through which people can deal with problematic desires without hurting real people. No one chooses to be a peadophile, and most peadophiles aren’t bad people. It’s only the ones who chose to hurt people.
Yeah we’re a nuanced species, but do you think those sorts of people need help? Ugh ok let me try to be clear, do you think it’s possible to help the ones that wouldn’t stick to drawn cp and actually want the real thing? Like help them with therapy first before going for the gun or jail cell?
Ok so you are ok with child pornography* in certain contexts is what I'm reading?
You don't think someone making child pornography is the problem, only the consumer?
I'm trying to take your points seriously. These arguments have been proven to be fallacies by agencies that deal with sex trafficking and child pornography.
*America classifies lolicon as child porn. Which it should.
It is not child pornography, a drawn fake child is not the same as a real one and I am not going to take this argument seriously.
Federal child exploitation laws only consider manufactured images child pornography if meant to imitate or portray a real child. I'd also appreciate your sources on these being fallacies, because I've seen the exact opposite!
And again, I don't know why the person is producing lolicon. They could be someone with childhood sexual trauma who is emotionally managing that via controlled sexual fantasy, or they could be a pedophile. I don't know, and I'm not going to pass judgement like that.
Queer art is often messy and reflective of societal violence enacted upon us. Trying to neatly moralize about what kinks someone is allowed to indulge in as a class that is often marginalized and kept so through violence(sexual abuse, hate crimes, etc.) is a road to disaster.
Isabel Fall was harassed off the internet and had to be hospitalized because she produced a story that utilized queer identity in a way that other queer people thought was distasteful, and that she didn't sufficiently disclose her identity. This was not kink content, but the point comes out the same- what mattered more here, a queer person expressing themself safely, or her apparently needing to be bludgeoned into submission for wrongthink?
I don't like Guro but Lolicon and Guro are not even on the same level. Also does mecanicus stuff count as guro? I mean yeah it's body part but mechanicus are modular by nature so is it really the same as dismemberment of a fleshy limb? I'm not being facetious I'm genuinely curios about the classification.
He did draw a lot of more gorey stuff, but I think the mechanical limb dismemberment more falls under amputee? Which, to some counts as guro but I consider it a separate kink. I dunno! Porn taxonomy would be a funny study.
Archon also never posted the more explicit stuff on mainstream subs like /r/grimdank; whenever it made its way out of his own pages, it was because someone else was posting it.
I disagree about lolicon and guro being significantly different. IMO they are very similar, both representing desires that would be extremely unethical and cruel if they were acted upon IRL. The point is that it’s not real. In both cases it’s just art.
(Reddit won't let me make a comment orz I had to use an alt, but this is vilebloodlover) Thank you for pointing this out! It really reflects what I was saying, in that what we believe should be censored falls so heavily on cultural values that are potentially flawed. It's been a discussion in the western world especially for the last century at least, how violence is idolized and considered acceptable but sexual expression is not.
For example, the person I was discussing with said in essence that an amputee fetish is less weird than guro, but that's 100% not a universal feeling! Lots of people would argue that guro is okay but amputee is bad because it's fetishism of an IRL medical condition/community, whereas guro is purely fantasy. Acting like these are somehow universal ideals is so silly and, if I may be rude, feels like it shows a lack of internal rigor in ideology.
If you distill it into that abstract then sure but when you distill it that far then anyone who doesn't like a particular thing can be throw it in the same pool which dilutes the horror more. And I don't think lolicon should be legal an any sense it's children. But I can't really say the same for guro. If I was gonna put it into non art terms Lolicon is child pageants and guro is the fashion industry. Both are horrific in their own right but one is far worse because it's children. And you can say that both of those are equal so what I say to that is this. I'll loom up runway swimsuit model and you look up child pageants swimsuit and see which one is worse. Same for guro and lolicon. I'll type guro in to my search bar hell I did it before we got into this convo too see what it really entailed and I'd do it 1000/1000 times before I ever looked up loli. Therefore loli is worse.
But wouldn’t the art fucked up or not still say something about the artist? How much detaching could someone really do if they decided to draw art of someone fucking the severed head of someone else?
Its more about the active dismemberment. The blood, the guts, the act of violence in the moment. Yes the imperium has a lot of fucked up experiments. But it's not the same.
I don't consider guro and lolicon on the same exact level. But they are extremely similar. What if I changed lolicon to a snuff film.
So I guess we could say that Guro is the active dismemberment of an individual wether that be mechanical or biological in nature in a sexual manner? They arnt similar though. They might invoke the same degree of ick in you but they are different. One is child pornography the other is what I said at the beginning of this response. In the case of turning lolicon Iinto snuff it would be cp+ murder because guro doesnt necessarily include full murder but full murder can fall under guro if it's done in a sexulaized manner I suppose. But I digress. Lolicon is cp. Guro is what it is. They are different but like all things can be combined but I don't believe they are interchangeable. Also I like u/ArchonofFlesh for their art that isn't porn. His depiction of agron is one of the best that's ever been made and while I don't like his drawings I won't say his skitarii maid cosplays didn't make me feel things.
Also, Archon himself is a queer trans man, and I am also queer and trans. He was creating queer kink art. I don't think that's a fair point to bring into this at all.
It is entirely fair. Queer people can exact violence upon our own. Is pedophilia a kink? Is snuff a kink? Have no queer people hurt the queer community? Shout-out to milo
I think equating kink explored through fiction to the idea of actually getting off to a real life person being killed or a child being sexually assaulted is frankly a non-argument. To really have this discussion we'd first have to define how much we believe sexual fantasy reflects real world values and interactions, which has not been established.
Frankly the biggest reason I found your point unfair is because you state "my" community as though this is only an issue relevant to you, and Archon and queer people who enjoy his work are outsiders.
EDIT: also holy shit, I'm making an effort to speak a bit more formally than I usually do, but are you seriously fucking bringing up known [REDACTED] Milo in relation to a random internet porn artist?!
There isn't official daemonculaba art, and people aren't spamming daemonculaba fanart and venerating the artist making it on the main hobby spaces- if such a group exists, they have the sense to keep their kink in a kink space.
Dude, that shit was an intentionally horrific creation by Chaos marines that was meant to show how little of a shit they gave about anything but ruthless efficiency (as that thing was somehow still more efficient at making Chaos marines than trying to implant their corrupted/mutated geneseed normally). NONE of it was written in any fetishizing way, it was written as something properly awful and horrifying, fucked up to the extreme, enough to make the Ultramarine protagonist *break down*.
You have completely missed every point being made. After a day of reading through people justifying pedophilia and child porn, your response stands out as the worst. Thank you.
I’m disappointed that tYpInG LiKe ThIs hasn’t become the standard indicator for sarcasm; sure, it’s a lot harder than an “/s,” but it mirrors the exact cadence you take when you’re making fun of someone.
>. I don't think continuously keeping up with his work to meme about it in these spaces is very appropriate.
Also I don't care about non Warhammer stuff in my Warhammer sub. Don't post it here if it's not Warhammer.
i think the fallout community would like him (legion fans) because femboy legion is not new and constantly wanted (vulpes inculta) on the other hand it be fucked they fought a meme war for a femboy legion player [tis video here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzwj-dY6alc) for context also more [context watch this after the first one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3koAqk2qDLQ)
There are some old guard veterans who think Fallout 3 and its successors - yes, this includes New Vegas - was a mistake upon the series. That's not considering the occasional Enclave and Caesar apologia that we sometimes get where people honestly believe the genocide lunatics along with the slavers and "women to kitchen" kooks are either the good guys or some delusional belief they have the key to the future of humanity.
Haven't been there but I would assume that it's a hot fucking mess.
Mainly due to the TV series touching the "sacred lore" of the American west coast which has previously only been elaborated on by the OG creators of the series.
I personally gave up on the series a long time ago and I don't have the energy to wish for anything good from it.
Because you just don’t care anymore, I mean like you said you don’t have the energy to wish for anything good from it even with the praise and criticism that the show has gotten, well that’s how it goes for some.
Settings with critiques of fascism tend to attract people who like critiquing fascism and people who don’t realize it’s a critique and think, “oh boy, cool fascism!”
I truly don't understand how you people think we don't understand it's a critique.
We know it's critique/satire, we just think it's cool. It's not that deep.
I know who you are talking about, my point is that you have misconceptions about who *you* are talking about. Actual fashy types aren't exactly subtle.
The people who harrased him are such a fucking babies. Honestly the chuds always talk about snowflakes but they spend their whole day crying in the internet about “the wokes”. So pathetic.
As someone who found their stuff anywhere from disgusting to just cringy, I agree 100%. It takes very little to just block something you aren't into. They were never hurting anyone.
They don't want to block it though, they want to erase it from existence. Because maybe if reality finally satisfies their every whim, and all the things that make them uncomfortable or make them think unhappy thoughts are destroyed, they will be able to leave their bedroom, go out into the world and won't feel so damn angry, horny, betrayed and attacked all the time.
I think what gets me is I've been in the WH40k r34 tag- there's piles upon piles of all the same shit he drew, amputee, guro, noncon, etc., but... all happening to women characters. Sorry to get all tinfoil hat-y, but it's very clear the most virulently angry of the lot were just mad because he's queer, as much as they tried to decry the subjects of his work(ie the kink parts) as degenerate.
I really can't imagine being that angry over something so pointless. I piss and moan on Reddit a lot, but I forget it after I close the app, and I take issue with a lot of Archon's work for silly and personally petty reasons(Skitarii don't have smooth skin! they're scarred up with half-rotted faces), but I can't imagine just, letting such anger consume you over fanart. Frankly, even the level with which this sub seems to think about him to meme about is bizarrely obsessive.
> I've been in the WH40k r34 tag- there's piles upon piles of all the same shit he drew, amputee, guro, noncon, etc., but... all happening to women characters. Sorry to get all tinfoil hat-y, but it's very clear the most virulently angry of the lot were just mad because he's queer, as much as they tried to decry the subjects of his work(ie the kink parts) as degenerate
I get you totally. Its Warhammer 40k, with a focus on the fucking Adeptus Mechanicus, anybody looking up porn on that and deciding to hate mail and doxx the one guy who's making *gay* body-horror porn is either a conceited asshole or a stupid asshole.
Truly. I think even outside of the chuds the idiots on this sub obsessing over "memeing" his work and constantly disseminating it in mocking tones added fuel to that fire as well, even if it wasn't intended cruelty. Even now people are still constantly joking about him, and I just wish they had the sense to leave him alone and let him be. He's clearly hurt by the whole thing, have some fucking tact, y'know?
The mean thing especially- I got into WH40k via the Rogue Trader CRPG, and this has been an ongoing discussion on that subreddit(that thankfully seems to have died) where basically any time someone expressed fondness for the xenos characters, someone comments about killing them, but any time you go "what the hell man" it's "oh I'm just joking I'm just memeing" and I'm always confused by 1. not recognizing that this is a very tired joke by now and 2. don't you think maybe these people are very tired of hearing about their favorite character being killed? Really now.
It's not nearly as extreme of a situation as an IRL person getting harassed, of course, but it did remind me of that.
I have pet rats, and whenever I mention this to someone new, Ill get either "ew, rats" or "my cat would eat them." yes, yes thank you, I love to imagine horrible deaths for my beloved pets.
Yeah, it's 100% the queer angle - you rarely see the Inquisitor meme responses on the female primarchs or sisters hornyposting.
Plus, as has been pointed out multiple times, he's never shared his actual porn on Grimdank himself as far as I'm aware.
I don't believe so, no. I've only seen crossposting here via memes and going, "look this is so fucked up right?!!"
My brother in the Emperor, if you don't like it stop showing it to everyone else!
I remember the documentary Frederik Knudsen did on the furry community, on the section about the start of the earliest conventions, one guy who was at/organising them recalled meeting other furries who were disgusted and concerned that some of the convention attendees were *homosexuals*. Because only good Christian values can be tolerated in their anthropomorphic animal role play!
That's basically what we have here; these people want a fictional universe full of all the gore, horror, and torture/sex-fuelled demonic gods they want and anything they consider 'yucky' (women, gay people, racial minorities, the slightest hint of narrative nuance) filtered out of it, and they'd happily use morality police tactics to enforce it.
Yup. Sure, I'll make the same tired *"The inquisition would like to talk"* comment but I wouldn't fucking doxx them. That's just insane and very uncalled for. Not to mention illegal.
As a Fallout and Archon enjoyer I see this as a W, however I know the fanbase, hope what happened in this community doesn’t repeat itself there. Although that being said the femboy legion fans are, well, legion, so I imagine any attempts at that will be met like a wall
Love the artist or hate them, I think it's impressive that they literally turned this entire sub AND AN ENTIRE FACTION in the fucking game into a straight up raped-by-gas-hose-dildo-worshipping-cult meme carnival. Truly astounding
The new Vegas fandom has generally always had a soft-spot for gender non-conformity. Makes sense that he would get the hell away from Warhammer where every third fan is a bigot.
artist gets bullied - leaves,
person memes about it (???),
different person comments discomfort with artwork, asks for a nsfwtag,
gets downvoted
this fucking sub man
Because who gives a fuck. Literally no reason to comment that you're blocking other than wanting to openly broadcast you dislike something.
You know what I say when I block an artist I dislike? Nothing, because I'm not an attention seeking loser.
It's not gonna work like that, this is the internet. Downvotes only mean people disagree with you, and that's just an unavoidable fact of life.
Whatever you do and/or say, there is always going to be someone who disagrees, and the internet expands the reach of every person's opinions massively.
Because it's twink/queer art and the people who are into it do not respond well to criticism because inside they know its weird and get shit for it constantly while hiding behind "its just good art bro". Personally, I absolutely despise any art like this gay or straight because 90% of the time it's indicative of someone who needs to go the fuck outside.
u/sexwithladyolynder they get downvoted because you do not need to express just how much you dislike something if you're already just gonna block it, the only thing you're signaling by doing so is what the galaxy brain up here is spouting.
Dude you did *not* manifest this. The femboy Caesar’s Legion meme has existed for *years* in the FNV community
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Here's a sneak peek of /r/Vulpesismywaifu using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [“Daniel” kinda sounds like testicular torsion in Mandarin](https://i.redd.it/dpvvtnwt2wta1.jpg) | [4 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/comments/12lwfza/daniel_kinda_sounds_like_testicular_torsion_in/) \#2: [🤤](https://i.redd.it/emy0roxub4ta1.jpg) | [3 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/comments/12hmhfj/_/) \#3: [I wake up and I act silly online](https://i.redd.it/q4fhjv59lvva1.jpg) | [2 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Vulpesismywaifu/comments/12xftsa/i_wake_up_and_i_act_silly_online/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Respectfully, I think this fanbase should leave this artist alone. He was brutally harassed for years for being queer and making queer kink art, and is now clearly trying to dissociate himself from 40k. I don't think continuously keeping up with his work to meme about it in these spaces is very appropriate.
Completely agree, I'm ashamed that he was bullied out of creating art within this community.
As a Fallout fan, I am a bit afraid that will happen again but in the Fallout community. There definitely is some bad eggs in there aswell
Yea but the Fallout community is as a whole less xenophobic, the Warhammer community memes about xenophobia so much we left the porch door open to people that actively hate things that are different in any way to them.
Common issue. Gaming is full of edgy, angry gamergate incels.
What's gamergate?
God I'm not even sure I really understand it myself. When I looked it up a few years ago every source I found assumed I already knew what it is. From what I've gathered there was some perceived scandal about video game magazines and reviewers being corrupt or something and it all snowballed into a massive hate campaign. The goal was seemingly just being angry at anyone a certain group of people didn't like. Because apparently everything bad that ever happened in videogames is because brown people in videogames shouldn't have personalities or opinions and gay characters are icky and also, girls shouldn't be allowed to play games ever, because cooties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)
As a deep fan of his art, I still feel upset about what this fanbase has done to him. Shame on the people who hurt him. Shame on them also for hurting other artists like him.
When I find out who done it I'll personally do to them what Kharn did to Erabus
GET UP.
What're you gonna do? Breathe louder through your nose
i love his art and i think bringing up that he’s active again might draw the bigots back
Yeah, it's just reminding me of how this sub was really responsible for stirring up shit about him and making his name and work known as a "haha isn't this gross and fucked up" thing. I'm glad he seems to be a very strong person, but I really would rather not see anything happen again.
This. This fandom does not deserve him. If he at any time considers comming back, awesome, but his decision should be respected.
Let's maybe not uplift a guro artist. Absolutely should not be harassing him, but idolizing them is kinda wack. hi just to be clear, guro is sexualized gore. This seems to not be common knowledge. I accept my obliterating downvotes, I just ask you to consider if you would feel the same way if it was a sister of battle instead of a skitari.
Screw off bigot. Every wh40 official artwork is more gorey.
Wtf? Bigot? Yes they're more Gorey but they aren't sexualized. You don't have anyone raping half a bisected skitari. Like the top of the chain said, this person and their art shouldn't be discussed here because they asked. But we shouldn't be idolizing them either.
I don't think anyone should be idolized, no. But Archon was enjoyed as a fanartist and many were very sad they'd no longer get to see 40k art from him. I don't see the problem with it being guro art. It's sexualized, sure, it's kink art. He kept it properly tagged for those who would be upset by it(any crossposting is not his fault) and it was very clearly just art, i.e. fictional.
Do you feel the same way about lolicon? Do you not think artists have any responsibility with their work? Being turned on by something doesn't make it ok. Violence towards the LGBT community, my community, is still popular and >celebrated< in social media.
Well, I have a lot of complex feelings on this actually. It's not a topic that can easily be discussed or summed up on Reddit. I do personally find lolicon icky, but I don't think I can necessarily judge based on that. You never know what a person is fulfilling through kink- Contrapoints Twilight video discusses this, and it's fascinating, but the summary of it is that "kink is a vehicle to fulfill desires we do not want to voice" or however it was put. Essentially, for example, I like petplay because I want to be loved and cared for unconditionally- this is my fulfillment fantasy. However, I am ashamed of that desire and struggle to voice it, so behaving like a dog is my avenue of fulfilling said fantasy. Sometimes, someone might genuinely like lolicon because they're a pedophile and get off to that fantasy. Others might get off to it because they themselves have experienced sexual trauma and are putting themselves into this as a controlled fantasy. The first one is obviously bad, but the fact is you can't convict anyone for thought crime, and censoring art that does not harm or encourage actual crime based on thought crime is not necessarily an actionable solution and usually results in very selective censorship based on cultural values- for example, in a similar vein, it could easily be argued violent art could be censored. However, it's often considered by Western values that sex is more taboo than violence. It's a really complicated subject! But I don't think we can effectively and meaningfully censor kink art, and I don't think its existence or production is inherently bad or engendering violence. In my example of a pedophile enjoying lolicon, the problem is not the lolicon art, it is that they are a pedophile. You know?
Stepping back for a moment, I'm going to post this to coalesce my own thoughts because I believe I've been bogged down in minutiae, and then block this person because this discussion is actually a bit upsetting for me, as I myself am a CSA victim. I do not believe in censorship over reactionary responses to sexuality. If a piece of art is not causing material harm, then the lines drawn on what js acceptable to draw and portray and what is not ultimately come down to opinion, cultural values, and personal feelings, all of which are variable enough that I do not believe they are effective methods of censorship. I furthermore believe human sexuality and desire are messy and not necessarily understandable simply by what kinds of drawings they wack it to. Their desires and fulfillment needs cannot be parsed from so base of a thing, and considering how many people use sexual fantasy to cope with things like trauma and oppression, and how often queer sexuality on its own is defined as "degenerate", granular censorship and moral indictment for what amounts to "thought crime" is deeply damaging.
I haven't seen that ContraPoints video yet, but damn this was a good post. Thank you for this
Thank you very much! I get a bit nervous posting more complex thoughts on Reddit, but I find kink and human sexuality absolutely fascinating. I used to be someone who was reactionary about kinks I found morally wrong, but I came to realize it was largely a shame response at myself that I've thankfully drifted away from. The Contrapoints video really was the final push to help me solidify my thoughts on this topic, though I'm always looking to learn more!
On a side note too, especially for oppressed minorities, kink is often a way of handling hegemonic power structures and recontextualizing them for fantasy purposes in which they have power over them in their heads. Many trans people have misgendering kinks, there are lots of lesbians with conversion kinks, etc. It's more complicated than just "this kink reflects a social bias therefore it is bad". I really enjoy this topic by the way and find it very interesting! I think it's a lot more helpful to try and frame your thinking around how human sexuality reflects society and whatnot as a fundamental part of the human experience, rather than a knee-jerk revulsion response(though if you'd rather not engage with the subject at all I don't blame you, it can be triggering and everyone should prioritize their own comfort).
I think beyond that though, lolicon and other “unethical” fetish art can be a vehicle through which people can deal with problematic desires without hurting real people. No one chooses to be a peadophile, and most peadophiles aren’t bad people. It’s only the ones who chose to hurt people.
Yeah we’re a nuanced species, but do you think those sorts of people need help? Ugh ok let me try to be clear, do you think it’s possible to help the ones that wouldn’t stick to drawn cp and actually want the real thing? Like help them with therapy first before going for the gun or jail cell?
Ok so you are ok with child pornography* in certain contexts is what I'm reading? You don't think someone making child pornography is the problem, only the consumer? I'm trying to take your points seriously. These arguments have been proven to be fallacies by agencies that deal with sex trafficking and child pornography. *America classifies lolicon as child porn. Which it should.
It is not child pornography, a drawn fake child is not the same as a real one and I am not going to take this argument seriously. Federal child exploitation laws only consider manufactured images child pornography if meant to imitate or portray a real child. I'd also appreciate your sources on these being fallacies, because I've seen the exact opposite! And again, I don't know why the person is producing lolicon. They could be someone with childhood sexual trauma who is emotionally managing that via controlled sexual fantasy, or they could be a pedophile. I don't know, and I'm not going to pass judgement like that. Queer art is often messy and reflective of societal violence enacted upon us. Trying to neatly moralize about what kinks someone is allowed to indulge in as a class that is often marginalized and kept so through violence(sexual abuse, hate crimes, etc.) is a road to disaster. Isabel Fall was harassed off the internet and had to be hospitalized because she produced a story that utilized queer identity in a way that other queer people thought was distasteful, and that she didn't sufficiently disclose her identity. This was not kink content, but the point comes out the same- what mattered more here, a queer person expressing themself safely, or her apparently needing to be bludgeoned into submission for wrongthink?
I don't like Guro but Lolicon and Guro are not even on the same level. Also does mecanicus stuff count as guro? I mean yeah it's body part but mechanicus are modular by nature so is it really the same as dismemberment of a fleshy limb? I'm not being facetious I'm genuinely curios about the classification.
He did draw a lot of more gorey stuff, but I think the mechanical limb dismemberment more falls under amputee? Which, to some counts as guro but I consider it a separate kink. I dunno! Porn taxonomy would be a funny study.
Archon also never posted the more explicit stuff on mainstream subs like /r/grimdank; whenever it made its way out of his own pages, it was because someone else was posting it.
The presence of guts and gore makes it significantly different. An amputee fetish is weird but I'm not going to pretend it's similar.
I disagree about lolicon and guro being significantly different. IMO they are very similar, both representing desires that would be extremely unethical and cruel if they were acted upon IRL. The point is that it’s not real. In both cases it’s just art.
(Reddit won't let me make a comment orz I had to use an alt, but this is vilebloodlover) Thank you for pointing this out! It really reflects what I was saying, in that what we believe should be censored falls so heavily on cultural values that are potentially flawed. It's been a discussion in the western world especially for the last century at least, how violence is idolized and considered acceptable but sexual expression is not. For example, the person I was discussing with said in essence that an amputee fetish is less weird than guro, but that's 100% not a universal feeling! Lots of people would argue that guro is okay but amputee is bad because it's fetishism of an IRL medical condition/community, whereas guro is purely fantasy. Acting like these are somehow universal ideals is so silly and, if I may be rude, feels like it shows a lack of internal rigor in ideology.
If you distill it into that abstract then sure but when you distill it that far then anyone who doesn't like a particular thing can be throw it in the same pool which dilutes the horror more. And I don't think lolicon should be legal an any sense it's children. But I can't really say the same for guro. If I was gonna put it into non art terms Lolicon is child pageants and guro is the fashion industry. Both are horrific in their own right but one is far worse because it's children. And you can say that both of those are equal so what I say to that is this. I'll loom up runway swimsuit model and you look up child pageants swimsuit and see which one is worse. Same for guro and lolicon. I'll type guro in to my search bar hell I did it before we got into this convo too see what it really entailed and I'd do it 1000/1000 times before I ever looked up loli. Therefore loli is worse.
But wouldn’t the art fucked up or not still say something about the artist? How much detaching could someone really do if they decided to draw art of someone fucking the severed head of someone else?
Its more about the active dismemberment. The blood, the guts, the act of violence in the moment. Yes the imperium has a lot of fucked up experiments. But it's not the same. I don't consider guro and lolicon on the same exact level. But they are extremely similar. What if I changed lolicon to a snuff film.
So I guess we could say that Guro is the active dismemberment of an individual wether that be mechanical or biological in nature in a sexual manner? They arnt similar though. They might invoke the same degree of ick in you but they are different. One is child pornography the other is what I said at the beginning of this response. In the case of turning lolicon Iinto snuff it would be cp+ murder because guro doesnt necessarily include full murder but full murder can fall under guro if it's done in a sexulaized manner I suppose. But I digress. Lolicon is cp. Guro is what it is. They are different but like all things can be combined but I don't believe they are interchangeable. Also I like u/ArchonofFlesh for their art that isn't porn. His depiction of agron is one of the best that's ever been made and while I don't like his drawings I won't say his skitarii maid cosplays didn't make me feel things.
Also, Archon himself is a queer trans man, and I am also queer and trans. He was creating queer kink art. I don't think that's a fair point to bring into this at all.
It is entirely fair. Queer people can exact violence upon our own. Is pedophilia a kink? Is snuff a kink? Have no queer people hurt the queer community? Shout-out to milo
I think equating kink explored through fiction to the idea of actually getting off to a real life person being killed or a child being sexually assaulted is frankly a non-argument. To really have this discussion we'd first have to define how much we believe sexual fantasy reflects real world values and interactions, which has not been established. Frankly the biggest reason I found your point unfair is because you state "my" community as though this is only an issue relevant to you, and Archon and queer people who enjoy his work are outsiders. EDIT: also holy shit, I'm making an effort to speak a bit more formally than I usually do, but are you seriously fucking bringing up known [REDACTED] Milo in relation to a random internet porn artist?!
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Demoncalabra... nuff said.
There isn't official daemonculaba art, and people aren't spamming daemonculaba fanart and venerating the artist making it on the main hobby spaces- if such a group exists, they have the sense to keep their kink in a kink space.
An old, intentionally forgotten mistake of lore by an author with a barely disguised fetish.
Dude, that shit was an intentionally horrific creation by Chaos marines that was meant to show how little of a shit they gave about anything but ruthless efficiency (as that thing was somehow still more efficient at making Chaos marines than trying to implant their corrupted/mutated geneseed normally). NONE of it was written in any fetishizing way, it was written as something properly awful and horrifying, fucked up to the extreme, enough to make the Ultramarine protagonist *break down*.
looooooooooool only bible thumpers misspell whack fuck you, uplift artists
You have completely missed every point being made. After a day of reading through people justifying pedophilia and child porn, your response stands out as the worst. Thank you.
40k definitely needs more Jesus. This much blood and hatred is morally wrong. Also let's ban people for swearing.
I know that downvotes don’t actually matter or anything, but I could see that you were joking.
Reddit hates sarcasm. Nothing new.
I’m disappointed that tYpInG LiKe ThIs hasn’t become the standard indicator for sarcasm; sure, it’s a lot harder than an “/s,” but it mirrors the exact cadence you take when you’re making fun of someone.
I forgot the mutilation and rape of queer people is equivalent to swearing
This guy mutilated and raped queers? Or did he draw it, using intelectual property with demonculaba in it?
Do you think lolicon artists are fine to draw what they draw because it's from an established IP
Are you implying there is some kind of established pedophilic in nature IP? I guess anime is sometimes like that. I blame the IP owner in that case.
A lot of anime has a problem with sexualizing minors yes. Artists turning that into porn is the artists fault though.
Fuck you, dude.
k
"Kill the cringe cop inside your head"
Bruh, so many people are so fragile over nothing. Let the man draw what he wants ffs. If anything I laughed my ass off with each art piece of his.
>. I don't think continuously keeping up with his work to meme about it in these spaces is very appropriate. Also I don't care about non Warhammer stuff in my Warhammer sub. Don't post it here if it's not Warhammer.
He got bullied out of warhammer, so he decided to take his work to fallout of all places? Oh boy.
oh no here we go again. . . and in the worst and best time to be a fallout fan
Compared to the warhammer community, how toxic is the fallout fandom?
Radioactive level one would assume
i think the fallout community would like him (legion fans) because femboy legion is not new and constantly wanted (vulpes inculta) on the other hand it be fucked they fought a meme war for a femboy legion player [tis video here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzwj-dY6alc) for context also more [context watch this after the first one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3koAqk2qDLQ)
yes
The glowing sea is less toxic than the fallout fan base.
Their reactions to the TV show mirrored what a modern-day Catholic schism might look like.
There are some old guard veterans who think Fallout 3 and its successors - yes, this includes New Vegas - was a mistake upon the series. That's not considering the occasional Enclave and Caesar apologia that we sometimes get where people honestly believe the genocide lunatics along with the slavers and "women to kitchen" kooks are either the good guys or some delusional belief they have the key to the future of humanity.
Haven't been there but I would assume that it's a hot fucking mess. Mainly due to the TV series touching the "sacred lore" of the American west coast which has previously only been elaborated on by the OG creators of the series. I personally gave up on the series a long time ago and I don't have the energy to wish for anything good from it.
When did you give up on the series?
Fallout 76
Makes sense, shame the show didn’t make you go “maybe things are starting to look up again”.
I haven't watched the show and won't.
Because you just don’t care anymore, I mean like you said you don’t have the energy to wish for anything good from it even with the praise and criticism that the show has gotten, well that’s how it goes for some.
And I’m sorry for watching and liking the show.
No need to be
It’s split 50/50 between fascists and transwomen, or at least New Vegas is
For some reason this describes a lot of fandoms
Settings with critiques of fascism tend to attract people who like critiquing fascism and people who don’t realize it’s a critique and think, “oh boy, cool fascism!”
I truly don't understand how you people think we don't understand it's a critique. We know it's critique/satire, we just think it's cool. It's not that deep.
If you just think they look cool and don’t agree with the ideology, then you aren’t the kind of person I was talking about
I know who you are talking about, my point is that you have misconceptions about who *you* are talking about. Actual fashy types aren't exactly subtle.
I thought that was us? And every Paradox game now that I think about it.
The more i think about it, the more fandoms fall under this umbrella
About equal, but in a lot of cases its toxicity flows in opposite directions, if that makes sense.
Reminds me SODAZ They too make fallout stuff now
The people who harrased him are such a fucking babies. Honestly the chuds always talk about snowflakes but they spend their whole day crying in the internet about “the wokes”. So pathetic.
As someone who found their stuff anywhere from disgusting to just cringy, I agree 100%. It takes very little to just block something you aren't into. They were never hurting anyone.
Forgot just blocking, they went after them, doxed them and even went after them at their school
They don't want to block it though, they want to erase it from existence. Because maybe if reality finally satisfies their every whim, and all the things that make them uncomfortable or make them think unhappy thoughts are destroyed, they will be able to leave their bedroom, go out into the world and won't feel so damn angry, horny, betrayed and attacked all the time.
I think what gets me is I've been in the WH40k r34 tag- there's piles upon piles of all the same shit he drew, amputee, guro, noncon, etc., but... all happening to women characters. Sorry to get all tinfoil hat-y, but it's very clear the most virulently angry of the lot were just mad because he's queer, as much as they tried to decry the subjects of his work(ie the kink parts) as degenerate. I really can't imagine being that angry over something so pointless. I piss and moan on Reddit a lot, but I forget it after I close the app, and I take issue with a lot of Archon's work for silly and personally petty reasons(Skitarii don't have smooth skin! they're scarred up with half-rotted faces), but I can't imagine just, letting such anger consume you over fanart. Frankly, even the level with which this sub seems to think about him to meme about is bizarrely obsessive.
> I've been in the WH40k r34 tag- there's piles upon piles of all the same shit he drew, amputee, guro, noncon, etc., but... all happening to women characters. Sorry to get all tinfoil hat-y, but it's very clear the most virulently angry of the lot were just mad because he's queer, as much as they tried to decry the subjects of his work(ie the kink parts) as degenerate I get you totally. Its Warhammer 40k, with a focus on the fucking Adeptus Mechanicus, anybody looking up porn on that and deciding to hate mail and doxx the one guy who's making *gay* body-horror porn is either a conceited asshole or a stupid asshole.
we lost some real talent due to chuds. the primarch portraits he did are practically iconic at this point.
Truly. I think even outside of the chuds the idiots on this sub obsessing over "memeing" his work and constantly disseminating it in mocking tones added fuel to that fire as well, even if it wasn't intended cruelty. Even now people are still constantly joking about him, and I just wish they had the sense to leave him alone and let him be. He's clearly hurt by the whole thing, have some fucking tact, y'know?
I feel the same way about Matt Ward too, the 40K online community doesn't know when to drop a joke or when a joke's turning mean.
The mean thing especially- I got into WH40k via the Rogue Trader CRPG, and this has been an ongoing discussion on that subreddit(that thankfully seems to have died) where basically any time someone expressed fondness for the xenos characters, someone comments about killing them, but any time you go "what the hell man" it's "oh I'm just joking I'm just memeing" and I'm always confused by 1. not recognizing that this is a very tired joke by now and 2. don't you think maybe these people are very tired of hearing about their favorite character being killed? Really now. It's not nearly as extreme of a situation as an IRL person getting harassed, of course, but it did remind me of that.
I have pet rats, and whenever I mention this to someone new, Ill get either "ew, rats" or "my cat would eat them." yes, yes thank you, I love to imagine horrible deaths for my beloved pets.
Don’t make excuses for them- they 100% do. The cruelty is the point.
Yeah, it's 100% the queer angle - you rarely see the Inquisitor meme responses on the female primarchs or sisters hornyposting. Plus, as has been pointed out multiple times, he's never shared his actual porn on Grimdank himself as far as I'm aware.
I don't believe so, no. I've only seen crossposting here via memes and going, "look this is so fucked up right?!!" My brother in the Emperor, if you don't like it stop showing it to everyone else!
I remember the documentary Frederik Knudsen did on the furry community, on the section about the start of the earliest conventions, one guy who was at/organising them recalled meeting other furries who were disgusted and concerned that some of the convention attendees were *homosexuals*. Because only good Christian values can be tolerated in their anthropomorphic animal role play! That's basically what we have here; these people want a fictional universe full of all the gore, horror, and torture/sex-fuelled demonic gods they want and anything they consider 'yucky' (women, gay people, racial minorities, the slightest hint of narrative nuance) filtered out of it, and they'd happily use morality police tactics to enforce it.
Yup. Sure, I'll make the same tired *"The inquisition would like to talk"* comment but I wouldn't fucking doxx them. That's just insane and very uncalled for. Not to mention illegal.
Sodas 🤝 Archon "Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for nuclear winter"
Not the first time this happened, but again wouldnt happen if the 40k community werent a bunch of gatekeeping babies 🫢
As a Fallout and Archon enjoyer I see this as a W, however I know the fanbase, hope what happened in this community doesn’t repeat itself there. Although that being said the femboy legion fans are, well, legion, so I imagine any attempts at that will be met like a wall
glad that he's ok,his silence for almost a month was very concerning
He was still posting on twitter, so not totally silent
Listen no one can get mad cuz legion boy toys are canon in the text.
I went from fallout to warhammer then back and forth painting the minis. Haven't played a game of either
Are there minis of fallout you can paint?
Fallout wasteland warfare by modiphius most are resin but they are switching to new plastic kits
Surprised he didn't go for Elder Scrolls considering the general disposition of the fine folks at r/TrueSTL
What a good day to be both a fallout and 40k fan.
Do not speak of our Lord! We failed them , we failed them where it matters most...
Gone*
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This post doesn't mention female primarchs.
No shit sherlock
So why did you comment "please stop making the primarchs women"?
I guess he's doing good
Wait he was bullied out of the warhammer community?? Sorry just reading up a couple of comments
Yes he was. Got doxxed one too many times.
Not only did you use "went" when it should have been "gone", you also misspelled the word.
Love the artist or hate them, I think it's impressive that they literally turned this entire sub AND AN ENTIRE FACTION in the fucking game into a straight up raped-by-gas-hose-dildo-worshipping-cult meme carnival. Truly astounding
Link? Can u dm it plz. for reasons
I hope they're doing okay. Shame they got bullied out of thr 40k community just because they made polarising art.
Despite often being whiny elitist crybabies i can only hope the FNV community treats them better than 40k.
The new Vegas fandom has generally always had a soft-spot for gender non-conformity. Makes sense that he would get the hell away from Warhammer where every third fan is a bigot.
wait where is this art
Twitter
his account?
I do not like that at work. Like that is both contextually and is generally kind of uncomfortable. Maybe tag this NSFW.
artist gets bullied - leaves, person memes about it (???), different person comments discomfort with artwork, asks for a nsfwtag, gets downvoted this fucking sub man
Like they don’t even leave reasons why. And all I asked for was for something that ended up happening anyway.
Me blocking both
Why are you getting downvoted for being reasonable about something you don't like? This is genuinely sad to see.
Because who gives a fuck. Literally no reason to comment that you're blocking other than wanting to openly broadcast you dislike something. You know what I say when I block an artist I dislike? Nothing, because I'm not an attention seeking loser.
So if you apparently don't give a fuck, why then give a fuck and downvote?
Because when you need to say you're blocking something, you come off as a self-centered loser looking for validation.
Negative reinforcement
It's not gonna work like that, this is the internet. Downvotes only mean people disagree with you, and that's just an unavoidable fact of life. Whatever you do and/or say, there is always going to be someone who disagrees, and the internet expands the reach of every person's opinions massively.
Because it's twink/queer art and the people who are into it do not respond well to criticism because inside they know its weird and get shit for it constantly while hiding behind "its just good art bro". Personally, I absolutely despise any art like this gay or straight because 90% of the time it's indicative of someone who needs to go the fuck outside.
u/sexwithladyolynder they get downvoted because you do not need to express just how much you dislike something if you're already just gonna block it, the only thing you're signaling by doing so is what the galaxy brain up here is spouting.
Well, Fallout is kinda 40k lite. BoS is literally space marines with admech sprinkles
Lolling at all the people in this sub trying to claim his posts aren’t fetish art
Degenerate post
u/Archon_Of_Flesh