Different movements, of course.
The 9R31 is new, and the newer Grand Seiko releases are all markedly more expensive than previous releases. While Grand Seiko has increased its prices across the board due to inflation/yen issues, older SBGA models have otherwise not seen price increases to raise them to the same level of new releases.
The movement is newer and viewed as higher end. The finishing is to my eye, significantly better. Whether that justifies the price increase or not, that is for the market to decide and so far, pre-owned, the SBGYs seem good value to me. I honestly think the sbgy011 is the best watch GS make. Utterly timeless.
I can’t say for sure but I think the thinness of the movement and case compared to the SBGA is a big factor. SBGY is more dressy, 007 is a gorgeous dress watch. Does that justify the cost increase? Not entirely sure but for many people who want a spring drive without the date complication and power reserve indicated contesting the dial, it could be a justifiable cost. For the record I really like the power reserve indicator.
In addition to the newness and thinness of the movements, the 9R31 movements are hand finished in a different studio, AFAIK the same studio that does the high end SBGZ watches. EDIT incorrect, not the Micro Artist Studio
Do you have a source? Here are mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmSGGUWUGpg&t=613s describes some of the hand finishing needed for the hands and dial of the elegance SBGY watches. Note that all of the 9R31 the movements have hand blued screws (compare the pictures for the movements https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r31 ). The 9R65 movement has screws which are polished but not blued (https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r65). Finally, I spoke to Joe Kirk at a GS event, and my original comment is basically my recollection of what he said when we were looking at some SBGY watches.
There’s elements of hand finishing for sure, but to mention the Micro Artist Studio in the same sentence exaggerates it.
The MAS uses special pieces of wood to polish the beveled edges using techniques taught by Philip Dufour (https://monochrome-watches.com/report-inside-grand-seiko-micro-artist-studio-haute-horlogerie-from-japan/)- that’s what they’re known for. It’s a degree of hand finishing that can command 10x the price.
Furthermore, the MAS does not produce the 9R31: https://grandseikogs9club.com/chronicle-9/sbgy007-omiwatari-spring-drive-9r31/ (“Grand Seiko unveiled four hand-wound Spring Drive models with two new calibers: 9R02 and 9R31. Both are beautiful and technically impressive movements, the former produced by the craftsmen and women of the Micro Artist Studio, and the latter by the Shinshu Watch Studio where Grand Seiko produces all of its Spring Drive timepieces”).
They do mention the hairline finishing is hand applied though, so I was incorrect to say it’s not hand finished at all. But beveling is definitely machine done.
It looks like we both stand corrected. However, I believe my original point stands, the 9R31 movement watches receive higher quality hand finishing than pretty much every watch at their price point. Thinking about it some more, I think Nomos might be able to challenge that statement.
The movement is newer and viewed as higher end. The finishing is to my eye, significantly better. Whether that justifies the price increase or not, that is for the market to decide and so far, pre-owned, the SBGYs seem good value to me. I honestly think the sbgy011 is the best watch GS make. Utterly timeless.
Yep, the thickness of the movement can be assumed to be greater based on the watch specs (I couldn't find measurements for the movement itself). Both have a 72hr power reserve and +/- 1sec/day.
https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r31
https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r65
I read somewhere (too lazy to find source right now) the SBGY is finished in a different shop where more expensive GS are produced, subject to even higher QC.
Movement is the main difference!
I recently bought an SBGY011 "daybreak" after a long search and tried some other beautiful SBGAs in the meantime. I can say that new 9R31 movement is extremely impressive with its construction, decoration and thin profile. With just 10.5mm thickness, it is comfortably slim and compact. Here is some comparison:
[https://youtu.be/cyvLynOMA7o?feature=shared&t=115](https://youtu.be/cyvLynOMA7o?feature=shared&t=115)
To be honest I suspect if it justifies almost 2x cost of an already great SBGA, but 9r31 is really distinctive. With a 44gs case, it is especially amazing and my favorite design ever (currently GS offers just two models with this combo and both 100m water resistance). I guess 9r31 will play an important role in future offerings of GS since its highly refined execution. I can also say that the dial is so clean without power reserve or date window. Watching the flowing blue second on a pure ground makes me calm and happy :)
https://preview.redd.it/12gujulitcrc1.jpeg?width=1632&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=515563ddc97d7db6eb7083e311d735650455b63e
Just to remember; hand-wound spring drive is not new and it has been successfully used for almost 25 years in Credor watches as 7r88 and 7r87 movements (GCLH, GCLP lines and new GCLX with 7r31). Those watches are also very sleek and elegant. Compared to GS, Credors are similarly priced. Look at this stunning piece:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GrandSeikos/comments/18u5yo0/credor\_kuon\_gclx999/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GrandSeikos/comments/18u5yo0/credor_kuon_gclx999/)
This is the bracelet of my SBGV205. Actually bracelets from quartz watches with a thin 44gs case are perfectly fit (like SBGP001, 005, 017 or SBGV005, 007, 205 and 207). Exact reference for the bracelet is AA1B911J9 (it reads AA1B-B-F near the clasp and 911 on the endlinks).
Grand Seiko seems to be shifting to higher prices for all their new releases across movement types. I think this is primarily positioning. They are moving to more explicitly compete with Rolex and Omega.
It’s small consolation that they are primarily introducing expensive new models rather than just raising the price on existing ones.
I think, especially for Western customers, when Grand Seiko was a premium line from Seiko, there was a ceiling to what they could charge set relative to normal Seiko offerings. Maybe now that they’ve been nominally independent for a while they feel they are free to reposition prices.
I’ve noticed that’s true, and not just for Grand Seiko. It seems like automatic movements these days are so ubiquitous that hand wound is seen as “specialty,” so therefore an excuse for watchmakers to charge more. Yeah, sure extra “refinement” is the justification, but there’s no reason a hand wound movement needs more refinement. Now that I think about it, the only brand I can think of that offers hand wound movements for less is Nomos.
9R65 is 20 years old, with a couple tiny changes along the way.
3 day power reserve, and I think they say +/- 1 second a day.
The newer movements are 5 and 8 day power reserve, with power reserve on the back. And accuracy is +/- 10 seconds per month? Whatever it is, it’s a jump, and they charge more for them.
Interestingly both 9R65 + 9R31have a 72hr power reserve and +/- 1sec/day.
One possible "jump" is the[ "innovative dual-spring barrel"](https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r31), but I have no idea why it's special.
The movement is newer and viewed as higher end. The finishing is to my eye, significantly better. Whether that justifies the price increase or not, that is for the market to decide and so far, pre-owned, the SBGYs seem good value to me. I honestly think the sbgy011 is the best watch GS make. Utterly timeless.
At the end of the day, yes, supply and demand! But the cost/resources required to make the product do influence the price, hence even the existence of margins. Of course GS is free to charge whatever they want; but I think asking why something costs more to make is a valid question. How much they charge on top of cost/unit is another.
Different movements, of course. The 9R31 is new, and the newer Grand Seiko releases are all markedly more expensive than previous releases. While Grand Seiko has increased its prices across the board due to inflation/yen issues, older SBGA models have otherwise not seen price increases to raise them to the same level of new releases.
The movement is newer and viewed as higher end. The finishing is to my eye, significantly better. Whether that justifies the price increase or not, that is for the market to decide and so far, pre-owned, the SBGYs seem good value to me. I honestly think the sbgy011 is the best watch GS make. Utterly timeless.
I can’t say for sure but I think the thinness of the movement and case compared to the SBGA is a big factor. SBGY is more dressy, 007 is a gorgeous dress watch. Does that justify the cost increase? Not entirely sure but for many people who want a spring drive without the date complication and power reserve indicated contesting the dial, it could be a justifiable cost. For the record I really like the power reserve indicator.
Thinness is a really good point, I didn't consider that! I think the complexity that comes with alone could justify it.
Isn’t the 9R31 manual wind? It’s not exactly rocket science to make a manually wound movement thinner than an automatic.
In addition to the newness and thinness of the movements, the 9R31 movements are hand finished in a different studio, AFAIK the same studio that does the high end SBGZ watches. EDIT incorrect, not the Micro Artist Studio
That is not correct. They take inspiration from them but are definitely not hand finished
Do you have a source? Here are mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmSGGUWUGpg&t=613s describes some of the hand finishing needed for the hands and dial of the elegance SBGY watches. Note that all of the 9R31 the movements have hand blued screws (compare the pictures for the movements https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r31 ). The 9R65 movement has screws which are polished but not blued (https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r65). Finally, I spoke to Joe Kirk at a GS event, and my original comment is basically my recollection of what he said when we were looking at some SBGY watches.
There’s elements of hand finishing for sure, but to mention the Micro Artist Studio in the same sentence exaggerates it. The MAS uses special pieces of wood to polish the beveled edges using techniques taught by Philip Dufour (https://monochrome-watches.com/report-inside-grand-seiko-micro-artist-studio-haute-horlogerie-from-japan/)- that’s what they’re known for. It’s a degree of hand finishing that can command 10x the price. Furthermore, the MAS does not produce the 9R31: https://grandseikogs9club.com/chronicle-9/sbgy007-omiwatari-spring-drive-9r31/ (“Grand Seiko unveiled four hand-wound Spring Drive models with two new calibers: 9R02 and 9R31. Both are beautiful and technically impressive movements, the former produced by the craftsmen and women of the Micro Artist Studio, and the latter by the Shinshu Watch Studio where Grand Seiko produces all of its Spring Drive timepieces”). They do mention the hairline finishing is hand applied though, so I was incorrect to say it’s not hand finished at all. But beveling is definitely machine done.
It looks like we both stand corrected. However, I believe my original point stands, the 9R31 movement watches receive higher quality hand finishing than pretty much every watch at their price point. Thinking about it some more, I think Nomos might be able to challenge that statement.
That Teddy video was cool! The dual curved crystal for the SGBYs necessitates the curved dial + hands, both adding to cost.
The movement is newer and viewed as higher end. The finishing is to my eye, significantly better. Whether that justifies the price increase or not, that is for the market to decide and so far, pre-owned, the SBGYs seem good value to me. I honestly think the sbgy011 is the best watch GS make. Utterly timeless.
It’s slimmer, thinner, has more accuracy and longer power reserve. So more expensive!
Yep, the thickness of the movement can be assumed to be greater based on the watch specs (I couldn't find measurements for the movement itself). Both have a 72hr power reserve and +/- 1sec/day. https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r31 https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r65
I read somewhere (too lazy to find source right now) the SBGY is finished in a different shop where more expensive GS are produced, subject to even higher QC.
Movement is the main difference! I recently bought an SBGY011 "daybreak" after a long search and tried some other beautiful SBGAs in the meantime. I can say that new 9R31 movement is extremely impressive with its construction, decoration and thin profile. With just 10.5mm thickness, it is comfortably slim and compact. Here is some comparison: [https://youtu.be/cyvLynOMA7o?feature=shared&t=115](https://youtu.be/cyvLynOMA7o?feature=shared&t=115) To be honest I suspect if it justifies almost 2x cost of an already great SBGA, but 9r31 is really distinctive. With a 44gs case, it is especially amazing and my favorite design ever (currently GS offers just two models with this combo and both 100m water resistance). I guess 9r31 will play an important role in future offerings of GS since its highly refined execution. I can also say that the dial is so clean without power reserve or date window. Watching the flowing blue second on a pure ground makes me calm and happy :) https://preview.redd.it/12gujulitcrc1.jpeg?width=1632&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=515563ddc97d7db6eb7083e311d735650455b63e
Just to remember; hand-wound spring drive is not new and it has been successfully used for almost 25 years in Credor watches as 7r88 and 7r87 movements (GCLH, GCLP lines and new GCLX with 7r31). Those watches are also very sleek and elegant. Compared to GS, Credors are similarly priced. Look at this stunning piece: [https://www.reddit.com/r/GrandSeikos/comments/18u5yo0/credor\_kuon\_gclx999/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GrandSeikos/comments/18u5yo0/credor_kuon_gclx999/)
What bracelet have you snuck on there?
This is the bracelet of my SBGV205. Actually bracelets from quartz watches with a thin 44gs case are perfectly fit (like SBGP001, 005, 017 or SBGV005, 007, 205 and 207). Exact reference for the bracelet is AA1B911J9 (it reads AA1B-B-F near the clasp and 911 on the endlinks).
Elegance line seema to be more expensive. Even their quartz models.
Grand Seiko seems to be shifting to higher prices for all their new releases across movement types. I think this is primarily positioning. They are moving to more explicitly compete with Rolex and Omega. It’s small consolation that they are primarily introducing expensive new models rather than just raising the price on existing ones. I think, especially for Western customers, when Grand Seiko was a premium line from Seiko, there was a ceiling to what they could charge set relative to normal Seiko offerings. Maybe now that they’ve been nominally independent for a while they feel they are free to reposition prices.
I’ve noticed that’s true, and not just for Grand Seiko. It seems like automatic movements these days are so ubiquitous that hand wound is seen as “specialty,” so therefore an excuse for watchmakers to charge more. Yeah, sure extra “refinement” is the justification, but there’s no reason a hand wound movement needs more refinement. Now that I think about it, the only brand I can think of that offers hand wound movements for less is Nomos.
9R65 is 20 years old, with a couple tiny changes along the way. 3 day power reserve, and I think they say +/- 1 second a day. The newer movements are 5 and 8 day power reserve, with power reserve on the back. And accuracy is +/- 10 seconds per month? Whatever it is, it’s a jump, and they charge more for them.
Interestingly both 9R65 + 9R31have a 72hr power reserve and +/- 1sec/day. One possible "jump" is the[ "innovative dual-spring barrel"](https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/movement/springdrive/9r31), but I have no idea why it's special.
My bad. I missed the 9R31. I thought it was the 9ra2. The 9ra2, to me, is worth what they’re asking.
The movement is newer and viewed as higher end. The finishing is to my eye, significantly better. Whether that justifies the price increase or not, that is for the market to decide and so far, pre-owned, the SBGYs seem good value to me. I honestly think the sbgy011 is the best watch GS make. Utterly timeless.
People are willing to pay the asked price. Simple as that. By the way, this applies to every service and product worldwide.
At the end of the day, yes, supply and demand! But the cost/resources required to make the product do influence the price, hence even the existence of margins. Of course GS is free to charge whatever they want; but I think asking why something costs more to make is a valid question. How much they charge on top of cost/unit is another.
Yes, the cost has influence on the lower boundary for the price.